Feds can’t provide health care … except they do
Under bills being considered in the House and Senate, federal intervention into health care would be much less intrusive than conservative critics prefer to pretend. The much-maligned public insurance option, for example, would be required by law to operate on the insurance premiums it generates from the marketplace and could not rely on taxpayers’ money. Likewise, there is no mechanism by which the government could dictate medical practices.
However, more direct examples of federal involvement in health care do exist already, as the Wall Street Journal points out:
LEESBURG, Va. — Federally funded health centers, originally created to serve the poor, are seeing a surge of patients as more Americans struggle financially.
The centers are on track to handle more than 20 million patients this year, up by more than two million from last year and twice the figure of a decade ago, according to surveys by the National Association of Community Health Centers.
“They’re seeing lines out the door,” said the association’s research director, Michelle Proser.
On a recent afternoon at the Loudoun County Community Health Center here, patients came in at a rate of one every two minutes. Operating chief Stephanie Kenyon said the waiting list has jumped to 500 from 20 in a few months. Some of the new patients are college-educated and, until recently, held jobs that put them in the middle class.
By conservative theory, such federal clinics should not exist and could not operate effectively if they did exist. But as the WSJ story points out, funding for the clinics doubled under that socialist George Bush, and the clinics deliver basic health care much more efficiently than private clinics.
They’re also swamped by patients unable to get care through the standard health-care delivery system, which rations the treatment it provides based on the patient’s ability to pay.
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226 comments Add your comment
Say What??
September 28th, 2009
10:10 am
USinUK
Uh oh, another “victim” story. Clinton was the “victim”. I guess he was forced to sign and praise the bill. I think you’ve been watching too much Oprah.
USinUK
September 28th, 2009
10:10 am
Say What –
“How about removal of those unsightly moles and skin tags? Are they “subsidized” as well”
visits to dermatologists are included in NHS care – you would have to go through a referral process through your GP (just like most private insurance in the US). if the doctor deems the mole to be malignant or dangerous, then, yes, it would definitely be removed. if it was jsut for cosmetic reasons, you would probably have to go private/pay cash for it.
Morningstar
September 28th, 2009
10:10 am
AmVet @ 9:05 Warning, unless you’ve got one helluva compelling personal story regarding them, I’m going to make you look like an uninformed
I know no veterans who bash the VA hospitals, and health care provided. Granted, it may not be perfect, but nothing is (perfect). I suppose some would prefer the veterans health care programs be turned over to ‘for profit’ insurance companies. I’m choking on my second cup of coffee just thinking about it.
Doggone/GA
September 28th, 2009
10:11 am
“Did the “national health insurance plan” not suffice as a definition for you?”
No…you still haven’t quoted any bill that proposes such a thing.
USinUK
September 28th, 2009
10:12 am
Say What –
“Uh oh, another “victim” story. Clinton was the “victim”. I guess he was forced to sign and praise the bill”
SPIN, MY LOVELY!!! SPIN-SPIN-SPIN!!!! that’s right – you can’t handle the truth, that it was a Republican that hatched NAFTA, so you just spin-spin-spin it to be a story of “victimization”.
hahahahaha … thanks for the chuckle …
N.J.
September 28th, 2009
10:14 am
With things like NAFTA as with any treaty or legislation, look for Republicans to REMOVE any aspect that protect citizens, workers, and so on. This is usually the case. Democrats have a long record of being better at handling the economy in a way that makes sure everyone gets a piece of the action. Republicans always attempt to hamstring that legislation with their aristocratic leanings with regard to “trickle down economics”. This asserts that someone those who are wealthy know the best way to handle the economy for everyone.
The last eight years have been another economic reminder that this is not the case.
The idea that a market bubble CANNOT somehow occur in the health industry is rather absurd, but what we have seen in the health industry in the last six month very much mirrors what went on in investment banking before the recent market crash. Prices going up, huge profits, and executives taking huge salary increases and even larger bonuses. Sound Familiar?
@@
September 28th, 2009
10:17 am
You won’t find me arguing against health clinics. I’m just glad to see the participants have to pay SOMETHING. Having skin in the game promotes better use of services.
$87,000 per year income qualifies you for Schip.
Where will the liberal definition of poverty wind up at, before this reign of error is booted back to the rathole from whence it came
DANG! after giving up my salary, we’re almost there. Something to strive for I s’pose. Now it’s time to start hiding the assets — the assets the government had no part in accumulating.
Figured I’d get a jump on Obama’s intended destination for all.
A failure to plan is a plan to fail.
Grumpy
September 28th, 2009
10:18 am
Federally funded does not = federally operated, which is what Bookman appears to imply.
Sounds like these are a lot like the non-profits a lot of people on both sides of the aisle are proposing, but ultra-liberals (like Bookman) don’t like because it’s not a “true public option”
I also love how the ultra-lefties say things like “public option programs must rely on premiums, not taxpayers” when the actual overhead of many pieces of the program (like collecting the cash) will be absorbed by other agencies (like the Treasury Department) who ARE funded with taxpayer money.
USinUK
September 28th, 2009
10:18 am
and, again, NAFTA doesn’t explain the thousands of call-center and programming jobs that were off-shored to India and manufacturing jobs that went to China
Taxpayer
September 28th, 2009
10:19 am
Say What??
September 28th, 2009
9:21 am
Taxpayer,
What are you trying to say? Where did I advocate eliminating pollution controls, easing seat belts, etc? You try so hard to eloquently pontificate that you begin to ramble on aimlessly. You really do like to hear yourself talk, don’t you?
“move out into a desolate spot in the middle of a national forest and live free”. No thank you. I do love National Parks and visit them often, however, I prefer to mingle in a society that presently embraces its sovereignty and capitalism. I love this democratic republic. Sadly, you and many others seem to embrace the concept of socialism. You can have your “govt takes care of me from the cradle to the grave”. I’ll keep mine as long as it exists.
I’m sure that you think that you have added something relevent to the discussion but you have not, as usual.
Scooter
September 28th, 2009
10:20 am
Jedidiah
September 28th, 2009
9:56 am
Thanks for the comeback and your prayers! So far my experience with the VA here in ATL has been better than when I had private HC.
booger
September 28th, 2009
10:23 am
The government run option would be funded by premiums, but many if not most of these premiums would be paid by the government. Kind of a no lose situation for the program, and a lose/ lose situation for those who actually pay tax.
And Jay keeps trying to imply that the reform plans will not give govt control of health care. However, if our government chooses to reform an institution, does that not mean they have taken control of that institution? Can a doctor or hospital say no thank you we have decided not to participate in the reform? Of course not. The fact that we are even discussing the government health care reform initative means they have control. It’s kind of like Chavez “reforming the oil industry” in Venezuala.
jconservative
September 28th, 2009
10:23 am
Kayaker 71 September 28th, 2009 9:30 am
“Since the passing of a federal income tax by adopting the 16th Amendment in 1913, there has been a slow, relentless twisting of the liberal screws to get government more involved in our lives.”
Very good point Kayaker. But your “article” you missed the most important causal factors. The “really important things” have not been the growth of government, the increasing control of our lives by government. The “really important things” have been the right to life, the right to choose, prayer in schools (both sides), same sex marriage (both sides), values(both sides) and I could go on. These have been the critical political issues for at least the last 50 years.
Your line “a slow, relentless twisting of the liberal screws to get government more involved in our lives.” could not be more true.
And who has been doing the “twisting”? The Democrats and Republicans.
For every twist by a Republican I can match with a twist by a Democrat.
AmVet
September 28th, 2009
10:24 am
Dr. Jed, please do come back from time to time, OK? I value your experience and sage input. No doubt, the lines for VA care are getting longer. MUCH longer. And more people are again going to start falling through the cracks. Again as a symptom of the botched BushCo Crusades.
This is a growing human tragedy that the Republican pro-war crowd refuses to see. They wave their flags and put ribbons on their vehicles but talk to them about escalating veteran suicides? Growing veteran homelessness? Rampant veteran psychological damage?
More anti-government flag waving will likely be the response.
NRB, congratulations!
You have joined a very select and growing list!
Included are Mike the Demander, Sunspot Dave, Dusty the Uber-patriot and too many drive-by cretins, mystery meats and others to recall.
And what do you share?
Ill-equipped to have cogent, civil discourses here, you fall back on what you do best. Childish insults and denying that any given service person who disagrees with you, ever raised his right hand and swore to defend the US Constitution and this country from all enemies, foreign and domestic.
That is a big part of why I chose this nom de blogue. To further expose the frauds and never-served, never-will cowards like yourself who claim to “Support the Troops”.
While in reality you really do not and likely never did…
N.J.
September 28th, 2009
10:26 am
Yes USinUK, I love those commercials on television in Great Britain. “Feet Hurt? Call this number and we will send a doctor to your house, free of charge to check them” Why is this. Because hurting feet is one of the earliest signs of incipient diabetes. These commercials and offers are common in Britain and all over Europe and Japan. Why, because universal and national health systems have an incentive to keep their citizens healthy. The citizen is going to be their customer for life.
In America between birth and the age of retirement, when the citizen becomes the government’s expense, the average American changes or has their health insurance changed on them 16 times. Every four years. Because serious illnesses do not develop suddenly, health insurers bank and do their actuarial tables and offer their benefits based on the concept that by the time an enrollee becomes chronically ill or develops a serious and very expensive problems, they will be insured by someone else.
Obama made an absolutely correct statement when he used the Post Office as an example. The Post Office has been around for years. And it has not put Fed Ex or UPS out of business.
For decades Republicans have preached the horrors of universal heath care to Americans who have never actually SEEN it in operation. Republicans fear letting this experiment of allowing Americans to COMPARE both private and government insurance first hand. Because they KNOW the outcome may simply be that Americans may prefer one over the other, and they pretty much know which one will come out on top. If it is all that horrific, how would that be possible?
Most countries with Universal health care are Democracies. That is, if the public does not like something they usually can get rid of it over time. No country has ever VOTED in a political party that has run on the platform of getting rid of universal health care in favor of doing it the American way. And in these countries it would be far easier to do so than it is in America because most of them do not have anything resembling a “filibuster”
That alone speaks volumes.
Say What??
September 28th, 2009
10:26 am
USinUK
Return thanks for chuckles. Speaking of spin, you still ignore the fact that clinton signed nafta. Maybe I missed it, but I didn’t see anyone holding a gun to his head to sign the bill.
Say What??
September 28th, 2009
10:29 am
Taxpayer
I hope you find your socialistic nirvana.
USinUK
September 28th, 2009
10:29 am
“Sunspot Dave”
sounds like a really cheesy do-wop group … Dave and the Sunspots …
USinUK
September 28th, 2009
10:30 am
“Maybe I missed it, but I didn’t see anyone holding a gun to his head to sign the bill.”
it’s called not reneging on a signed international agreement.
AmVet
September 28th, 2009
10:33 am
USinUK, a little Bob Seger tune for Davey from that killer Night Moves LP:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zAlZ4OpuFEM
USinUK
September 28th, 2009
10:33 am
NJ –
“Yes USinUK, I love those commercials on television in Great Britain. “Feet Hurt? Call this number and we will send a doctor to your house, free of charge to check them” Why is this. Because hurting feet is one of the earliest signs of incipient diabetes. These commercials and offers are common in Britain and all over Europe and Japan. Why, because universal and national health systems have an incentive to keep their citizens healthy. The citizen is going to be their customer for life.”
in case the name doesn’t give it away, I live in the UK and consume my fair share of teevee … I’ve NEVER seen an ad like the one you describe. (maybe they’re played in Japan or during daytime teevee, but definitely not in the evenings).
Say What??
September 28th, 2009
10:34 am
Taxpayer,
By the way, how “relevant” and “adding to the discussion” was your 10:19 post?
USinUK
September 28th, 2009
10:34 am
AmVet –
you just love to taunt me with YouTube when I’m at work, don’t you
Say What??
September 28th, 2009
10:35 am
AmVet
We may disagree on many political issues, but Seger is one of my all time favorites. My young children have “Live Bullet” on their Ipods.
AmVet
September 28th, 2009
10:40 am
USinUK. I HATE it that you can’t do YT at work. Cuz, I know you’re a rocker!
Say What??
Yeah, and really isn’t music more important than politics anyway?
Friday nights here are a groove because of JB’s traveling music theme. (Thanks, Jay.)
More sweet Seger:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5TjWOVUZeJo
Taxpayer
September 28th, 2009
10:41 am
“In total, NAFTA resulted in a net loss of 394,835 jobs in its first three years.
Wow. And, to think that it only took US businesses a half a month to top those numbers, thanks to the Republican’s total screwup of our economy. And, yes, NRB/Say what/kayaker/conservative family valued republican, Bush (and the republicans) did it. That’s why the republicans are not only the party of no, they are the party of losers. As in not in power. Keep up the good work. We truly appreciate it. hehehe.
Say What??
September 28th, 2009
10:43 am
Taxpayer
Glad you’re so smug in Obamaworld. Remember, the only thing rising during this short tenure is the national debt, unemployment, and citizenry anxiety. Also:
O ne
B ig
A ss
M istake
A merica
Taxpayer
September 28th, 2009
10:45 am
Say What??
September 28th, 2009
10:34 am
Taxpayer,
By the way, how “relevant” and “adding to the discussion” was your 10:19 post?
Just the last sentence had any relevance. I thought I made that clear in that post though.
Say What??
September 28th, 2009
10:47 am
Taxpayer
Oh yeah, taxes will be increasing as well.
USinUK
September 28th, 2009
10:48 am
AmVet –
I always liked Seger – I think it’s that great raspy voice of his (although, Like a Rock is one of my least favs because it was soooooo horribly overplayed) …
Night Moves is absolutely sublime … still, all these years later, a C-LASS-IC!
Say What??
September 28th, 2009
10:48 am
Taxpayer,
Say What??
September 28th, 2009
10:34 am
Taxpayer,
By the way, how “relevant” and “adding to the discussion” was your 10:19 post?
Just the last sentence had any relevance. I thought I made that clear in that post though.
Nope, mission not accomplished.
AmVet
September 28th, 2009
10:48 am
OK, OK, one last fine Seger tune. (I promise.)
Ex-pat listen to all three of these later, OK?
Love that fuzzed guitar solo…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ynDM0lJX92Q
Taxpayer
September 28th, 2009
10:49 am
Say what,
Enjoy the ride, at the back of the bus. We’ll handle everything for you and send you your bill. Just remember to pay what you owe for the privilege of living here. Don’t be a UBSer that hides money offshore to avoid paying their fair share of the price to live here in the US. They’re nothing but a bunch of worthless idiots. Unpatriotic slime.
I Report/ Vast White Wing Conspirator (-: You Whine )-:
September 28th, 2009
10:49 am
LAINGSBURG, Mich. (AP) – Economically beleaguered Michigan faces a possible government shutdown – shuttering highway rest areas, state parks, construction projects and the state lottery
Not the lottery, no, mr. bill, no!
Gosh, I wonder what the socialists want to stop this from happening?
More of your money, hahahahaha, go figure.
Taxpayer
September 28th, 2009
10:52 am
say what,
The Republican conceived and approved tax cuts from the Bush era all expire next year becuase someone has to pay for giving the wealthy those cuts as well as pay for taking us to war and giving the drug industry more welfare and giving more welfare to the ag industry, etc. That is the Republican party legacy. Get used to it.
USinUK
September 28th, 2009
10:52 am
AmVet –
“OK, OK, one last fine Seger tune. (I promise.)”
you’re a mean man, AmVet! mean, I tell ya!
Dawgdad
September 28th, 2009
10:53 am
The US Postal Service is required to operate on revenues it generates as well, they sure seem to need taxpayer bailouts frequently however. Bush was a socialist (compassate conservative) and like Obama represented himself as something else to get elected. Can no one get elected based on what they actually believe anymore? Ronald Reagan was the last guy I know who governed as he campaigned.
GayGrayGeek
September 28th, 2009
10:54 am
NRB, don’t you have more paens to timothy McVeigh and/or Eric Rudolph that you need to compose and publsh?
Say What??
September 28th, 2009
10:55 am
Taxpayer
So you endorse making people who disagree with you sit “at the back of the bus”? Showing your true colors, huh? Wow, I thought that attitude became moot back in Montgomery, AL, in 1955. And you libs call us conservatives “extreme”?
USinUK
September 28th, 2009
10:56 am
btw –
for anyone else who loves nature shows as much as I do (especially fishy things with big teeth):
http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2009/sep/28/bbc-wildife-footage-online
“Chimpanzees ambushing and eating colobus monkeys, great white sharks leaping clean out of the ocean to catch their prey and the first footage of an entire snow leopard hunt are just some of the wonders of nature made available by the BBC as it opens up its vast archive of wildlife footage online today.
Over 500 video clips have been made available to view on the BBC’s website, along with audio and an introduction from Sir David Attenborough.”
(and it has David Attenborough, fercryingoutloud!!! my god, productivity is going to take a nosedive)
Say What??
September 28th, 2009
10:57 am
Taxpayer,
Oh yeah, you said “We’ll handle everything for you and send you your bill.” Any pretense that you’re not a socialist is now moot.
Enjoy your ride….at the expense of others.
AmVet
September 28th, 2009
11:05 am
Yeah, probably guilty as charged USinUK. But I do have my redeeming qualities as well!
In spite of the plethora of programming that falls into the oh-so-politically-incorrect label of Tard TV, we do have some great programs on now. PBS is airing a Ken Burns special on the National Parks. Stellar, of course. John Muir is undoubtedly one of the greatest Americans (Scottish born) to have ever lived.
Also, Discovery Channel’s Planet Earth and Blue Planet are both amazing. Educational and visually stunning.
I wonder if the anti-environmentalists hate these shows…
Taxpayer
September 28th, 2009
11:05 am
Say What??
September 28th, 2009
10:55 am
Taxpayer
So you endorse making people who disagree with you sit “at the back of the bus”? Showing your true colors, huh? Wow, I thought that attitude became moot back in Montgomery, AL, in 1955. And you libs call us conservatives “extreme”?
True colors. What are you talking about. I was simply stating that you can leaves the driving to us.
TnGelding
September 28th, 2009
11:06 am
USinUK
September 28th, 2009
10:06 am
The irony is G.H.W. Bush couldn’t have gotten it through Congress.
Bruno
September 28th, 2009
11:11 am
“But as the WSJ story points out, funding for the clinics doubled under that socialist George Bush, and the clinics deliver basic health care much more efficiently than private clinics.”
I’m still trying to figure out what Jay’s column has to do with ObamaCare. As a hard-core conservative, I think publicly-funded clinics are fine, and have used them myself, paying the full fees, of course.
What the Democrats are proposing is the mandatory purchase of a government-approved health insurance policy, which is a different animal altogether. Minimum terms of coverage will be dictated and will include items that many consumers don’t want or need such as maternity care.
Sadly, the vast majority of the liberal posters here seem satisfied to toss around their not-so-clever insults rather than discussing the pros and cons of forcing everyone to purchase an expensive insurance plan.
Say What??
September 28th, 2009
11:11 am
AmVet
Watched the parks special last night. Loved it. Visited Yellowstone in the past and it was great. Hope to get to Yosemite in the near future.
USinUK
September 28th, 2009
11:12 am
AmVet –
“PBS is airing a Ken Burns special on the National Parks.”
oh, man – I’ll bet that’s brilliant. (as is everything KB does)
I’m with you on Planet Earth – we have that on blue-ray and it’s just mind-blowing.
TnG –
“The irony is G.H.W. Bush couldn’t have gotten it through Congress”
I think he could have – the Dems would have forced through the same protectionist measures Clinton did. bottom line, though – they wouldn’t leave the president standing in the wind with his pants around his ankles after signing an international agreement. they would have made it painful for him, but they would have passed it.
N-GA
September 28th, 2009
11:12 am
So far it appears that almost everything that can be said about this issue has been posted, re-posted, refuted, and/or supported with facts.
So in the spirit of posting something more interesting and certainly closer to home (Georgia), try this: http://abcnews.go.com/video/playerIndex?id=8677408
Say What??
September 28th, 2009
11:13 am
Taxpayer,
Being called out for what you are kind of stings, doesn’t it?
USinUK
September 28th, 2009
11:14 am
Brunooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
(I just love your name)
hey bubba!
Bosch
September 28th, 2009
11:17 am
USinUK,
Isn’t that the “Planet Earth” series we had here a couple years ago? Got it on DVD – lot of “ooooooooooooo” moments.
Say What??
September 28th, 2009
11:19 am
N-GA
Wow, what an objective piece of legislation by ABS NEWS. Hmmmm, two Republican Senators were taken to play golf. Holy cow, stop the press!!
I wonder if ABS News is looking into the financial dealings of Democrat Charlie Rangel (tax fraud) or how Barney “humping my male page” Frank profited from Fannie (how appropriate) Mae and Freddie Mac?
Wonder which representatives actually benefitted more? Hmmmm. I’m sure CBS could bring back Dan Rather to do another objective piece of journalism.
Soothsayer
September 28th, 2009
11:20 am
Americans think that they have “freedom and democracy” and that politicians are held accountable by elections. The fact of the matter is that the US is ruled by powerful interest groups who control politicians with campaign contributions. Our real rulers are an oligarchy of financial and military/security interests and AIPAC, which influences US foreign policy for the benefit of Israel.
USinUK
September 28th, 2009
11:23 am
Bosch –
“lot of “ooooooooooooo” moments”
I hope you mean “oooooo” as in ooooo-aaaaa-fireworks and not as in Oh-face …
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k6UPR3OdroY
(if you do mean the latter … well … mazel tov!)
Bruno
September 28th, 2009
11:24 am
In case there are any thinking liberals on board, here is the reason I think the mandatory purchase of insurance is a bad idea:
http://money.cnn.com/2009/08/10/news/economy/healthcare_money_wasters/index.htm/
As estimated by Price-Waterhouse-Cooper, a full 55% of the money we spend on health care is wasted, primarily on ordering unnecessary tests and on unnecessary administrative overhead. As I’ve stated several times, it is the third-party payment system itself (i.e. the use of insurance to pay for routine care) that has led to this. As such, there are only two intelligent solutions that I can think of:
(1) Capitalistic Solution: Return health care insurance to its rightful place as protection against catastrophic loss ( $10,000 deductible or more) and pay for routine care out-of-pocket in the same way that we pay for other necessities of life out-of-pocket such as food and transportation.
(2) Socialistic System: Move to a full-blown single-payer system ala Britain or Canada.
Soothsayer
September 28th, 2009
11:25 am
Here’s what it really looks like
Warning: not for the squeemish!
Say What??
September 28th, 2009
11:25 am
Jay,
How about reading Soothsayer’s 11:20 post and get back with me about how those individuals you refer to as “birthers” are the loony ones.
By the way, I’m conservative but I’m not a “birther” you so disdain.
Soothsayer
September 28th, 2009
11:28 am
Say What??: That post was written by none other than Paul Craig Roberts, Secretary of the Treasury under President Ronald Reagan. Maybe he knows something you don’t.
Bruno
September 28th, 2009
11:29 am
“hey bubba!”
Point blank, USinUK: How is the mandatory purchase of insurance going to do anything about eliminating the 55% of wasted dollars in our current health care system?
I understand that you support a single-payer system, and as stated above I believe that is an intelligent solution (though not MY chosen solution). As a supporter of single-pay, what is your opinion of the proposed mandatory purchase of insurance which will do nothing but perpetuate the waste and fraud?
Say What??
September 28th, 2009
11:31 am
Soothsayer
Your 11:25 post sinks to a new low. Many libs would not sink to your level, but whatever supports your point of view is okay, right?
The family of that brave soldier, when confronted with the picture, specifically requested it NOT be published. They were against it because it was THEIR child and they didn’t want it to be used for political purposes. I suppose libs such as yourself not only know “what’s best for us” when it comes to taxes, healthcare, and such, but apparently you now know what’s best for a family who has had to endure the loss of a loved one. Your arrogance is equally amazing and disgusting.
N-GA
September 28th, 2009
11:31 am
Say What?: If your attention span wasn’t so short, you would have learned something from watching that piece of real news.
Bosch
September 28th, 2009
11:32 am
Bruno,
“As a supporter of single-pay, what is your opinion of the proposed mandatory purchase of insurance which will do nothing but perpetuate the waste and fraud?”
Not to speak for USinUK, but I can say as a supporter of the single-pay, I think the mandatory purchase of insurance is stupid – for it does nothing to address the core of the problem which is cost, and waste.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
And USinUK,
Fireworks “ooooooo — ahhhhhhh” definitely. Does that program show the giant pile of bat poop?
AmVet
September 28th, 2009
11:33 am
USinUK, gawd, I love that flick Office Space. A real gem.
For all you HP, Epson, Brother fans out there…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nfCYzJAgwrw
Are you one of the MOTs? If so, Tsom Kal…
Say What??
September 28th, 2009
11:33 am
N-GA
Actually I play a pretty mean game of golf and believe I could beat either of those politicians. Nothing really to learn there.
USinUK
September 28th, 2009
11:35 am
Bruno –
“As a supporter of single-pay, what is your opinion of the proposed mandatory purchase of insurance which will do nothing but perpetuate the waste and fraud?”
it’s a you-can-pay-me-now-or-you-can-pay-me-later situation — as everyone knows, we ALL pay for people who don’t have medical insurance. I’m not thrilled by the requirement unless there is some kind of public option where people can “purchase” into a public plan like Medicare (where administrative costs are a fraction of those for private insurance companies).
meanwhile, how’ve ya been?
Say What??
September 28th, 2009
11:35 am
You socialists enjoy yourselves for the rest of the day. Soothsayer’s posts got me in the mood for some golf. Think I’ll go for the full 18 holes. Just remember this:
O ne
B ig
A ss
M istake
A merica
Matilda
September 28th, 2009
11:36 am
“….liberal posters here seem satisfied to toss around their not-so-clever insults rather than discussing the pros and cons of forcing everyone to purchase an expensive insurance plan.”
I can! I was a bit uncomfortable with this too until Mr. Bookman explained it so well a couple of weeks ago. Real reform doesn’t happen until we address the current reality that people are refused coverage due to pre-existing conditions. One way to address that is to mandate that insurance companies don’t do that anymore. (The other is having a public option that won’t refuse, but that is a separate related conversation.) Let’s say, in the interest of competition, we keep our system of private insurers, but force them to accept clients with pre-existing conditions. What happens then? People refuse to buy coverage (= pay into the system) until they need it, knowing they can’t be refused for being sick. Then they buy it when they’re sick or injured, and the insurance companies pay out way more than they take in and go bankrupt. Those people would essentially become the new “free riders” taking forced handouts from private companies, and Blue Cross’s ability to employ people evaporates.
The alternative is to NOT provide a way to cover those with pre-existing conditions, and nothing changes, even though most Americans clearly want our system to function more effectively for more people.
AmVet
September 28th, 2009
11:36 am
Seeya later, Say What.
And remember, long and straight!
Soothsayer
September 28th, 2009
11:38 am
Americans are for war when they can remain insulated from its harsh realities. Tell me what did that yound man die for? What is our goal in Afghanistan? Can we win? Does any of that matter? Will we suffer yet another humiliating defeat?
As for your comments, I knew nothing about that photo except that it was imbedded in another article I was reading.
USinUK
September 28th, 2009
11:38 am
Bosch –
“Fireworks “ooooooo — ahhhhhhh” definitely. Does that program show the giant pile of bat poop?”
I think you’re thinking of Dirty Jobs (I love that show)
AmVet –
“Are you one of the MOTs? If so, Tsom Kal…”
while I’ve dated a few MOTs and worked with loads of MOTs when I lived in DC, I’m not one myself … (I’m a member of the world’s largest religion – Lapsed Catholic)
I Report/ Vast White Wing Conspirator (-: You Whine )-:
September 28th, 2009
11:40 am
“I’ve talked to the president, since I’ve been here, once on a VTC [video teleconferece],” General Stanley McChrystal told CBS reporter David Martin in a television interview that aired Sunday.
Yeah but I’ll bet Obozo’s talked to Code Pinko hundreds of times, who knows better than they do what is good for our troops, right?
What’s the big deal?
Marc
September 28th, 2009
11:41 am
Jay you are so consumed with Obama. Why don’t you spend more time dealing with issues on a local level? Or are you trying to be a mini-Cynthia. There is an article today about sex offenders have no place to live due to the 1000 foot law. One of these “SEX OFFENDERS” was 15 when his CRIME happened and that was attempted sex girl that was 12 and that was 19 years ago. Where is your outrage about this. The fact the no one in local our state government did anything to close down the city last Monday when roads and expressways were completely impassable. But it was business as usual! How many of the deaths could have been prevented if the city was shut down like it does when there is hardly any snow on the ground! If you are going to write about Obama why not have outrage that his supports are trying to indoctrinate school children! Your not an Obama cheerleader you’re suppose to be a journalist!
I Report/ Vast White Wing Conspirator (-: You Whine )-:
September 28th, 2009
11:42 am
Just 41% of voters nationwide now favor the health care reform proposed by President Obama and congressional Democrats. That’s down two points from a week ago and the lowest level of support yet measured.-Rasmussen
bwa
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZpUz5zXywhY
Soothsayer
September 28th, 2009
11:44 am
To stem opposition to its wars, the War Department hides signs of American casualties from the public. Angry that evidence escaped the censor, the War Secretary and the American Legion attacked with politically correct jargon: “insensitive,” “offended,” and the “anguish,” “pain and suffering” inflicted upon the Marine’s family. The War Department sounds like it is preparing a harassment tort.
mm
September 28th, 2009
11:44 am
Jay,
I love to read the wingnut posts on your blog. These posts tell me what’s happening on the Rush, Hannity, Beck, and Fox News shows without having to listen to the garbage myself.
These mindless drones really do think that most Americans think like them. I guess they think the last 2 elections were a fluke.
TnGelding
September 28th, 2009
11:48 am
I Report/ Vast White Wing Conspirator (-: You Whine )-:
September 28th, 2009
11:40 am
I’ll take that bet.
Bruno
September 28th, 2009
11:48 am
“I can say as a supporter of the single-pay, I think the mandatory purchase of insurance is stupid – for it does nothing to address the core of the problem which is cost, and waste.”
Bosch–I appreciate you “crossing party lines” in stating that this current plan misses the mark. Single-payer or pay-as-you-go are the only ways out of our wasteful system, neither of which is being proposed by the Democrats. If you or anyone else has a third solution, I’m all ears.
“it’s a you-can-pay-me-now-or-you-can-pay-me-later situation — as everyone knows, we ALL pay for people who don’t have medical insurance.”
I’ve paid for every bit of medical care that I’ve ever needed out-of-pocket, as do millions of other Americans. Obviously, I’ve never been faced with a catastrophic situation, but the reality is that most health care policies are STILL inadequate when faced with bills totaling $1,000,000 or more.
TnGelding
September 28th, 2009
11:49 am
I Report/ Vast White Wing Conspirator (-: You Whine )-:
September 28th, 2009
11:42 am
I’m surprised it’s that high considering all the misrepresentation, which isn’t needed since it’s a bad bill.
USinUK
September 28th, 2009
11:49 am
umm. marc. this is Jay’s blog. he can write what he wants. you want to talk about local stuff, start your own blog.
stands for decibels
September 28th, 2009
11:50 am
Andy said, rather ungrammatically:
$87,000 per year income qualifies you for Schip.
Where will the liberal definition of poverty wind up at
GA’s SCHIP program doesn’t include 87K income earners (not that I would have a problem if it did, but it doesn’t.)
Also, SCHIP wasn’t designed to cover those living in “poverty” but rather for those “who do not qualify for Medicaid and live in households with incomes at or below 235% of the federal poverty level.”
(Obviously, most regulars to these comments threads know to never bet the farm on Andy’s numbers, but I figured I probably ought to clear that up.)
Soothsayer
September 28th, 2009
11:50 am
Even though I am a life-long progressive, I am now convinced that Ron Paul would have been the best choice for President with Paul Craig Roberts as Treasury Secretary. What we have now is just “more of the same.” Business as usual.
hryder
September 28th, 2009
11:52 am
The point that many have offered is that a great deal of time was spent reaching the state of health care as it exists in the country. Transforming what exists in 5-6 months is unacceptable to those adults who realize they will have any new system the remainder of their lives. Do not offer any rebuttal for rushing to get something in place until it can be read, thought over, debated, and then voted up or down. The truth is that many ideas have been proposed to date, some were almost totally unacceptable to most people, others contained several things unacceptable to most people, no one plan offered was acceptable to most people. Either remodel health care in a fashion acceptable to most people or leave it alone. A note: recent studies have indicated that multitasking results in none of the tasks being accomplished well. The President is attempting to multitask problems that other equally competent people have been unable to complete in a lifetime. The Big O needs to select his problem to solve, delegate authority for the others, and really devote most of his attention to that problem. If he continues to overexpose himself by far too many public and private appearances and pronouncements he risks becoming totally irrelevant as wss the boy who called wolf.
TnGelding
September 28th, 2009
11:53 am
I Report/ Vast White Wing Conspirator (-: You Whine )-:
September 28th, 2009
11:40 am
Ever heard of the chain of command?
pat
September 28th, 2009
11:53 am
I thought you guys didn’t want to cover illegals.
http://washingtontimes.com/news/2009/sep/28/liberals-seek-health-care-access-for-illegals/
So much for that…The truth comes out.
Bosch
September 28th, 2009
11:58 am
Pat,
Good lord. Since when does one member of Congress equate to all liberals and Democrats want health care coverage for illegal immigrants? NONE of the plans that have come out include illegal immigrants – K?
USinUK
September 28th, 2009
11:59 am
Bruno –
“Obviously, I’ve never been faced with a catastrophic situation, but the reality is that most health care policies are STILL inadequate when faced with bills totaling $1,000,000 or more”
I agree – even when you’re talking about being responsible for 20% of a bill bill for $50,000 or more for a horrific car accident, $10,000 would still break a lot of families.
The biggest strain for most families is prescriptions – even people who have insurance have out-of-pocket costs of $100 or more for necessary ’scripts. There was a story a year or so ago about people who stretched their chemo meds (by taking 1 a day instead of 2) because they couldn’t afford to take them as the doctor prescribed.
http://health.usnews.com/articles/health/healthday/2008/06/10/medicare-costs-for-cancer-treatment-soar.html
USinUK
September 28th, 2009
12:01 pm
Bosch –
“Since when does one member of Congress equate to all liberals and Democrats want health care coverage for illegal immigrants? ”
hey – if we’re going to play that game, let’s talk about Michelle Bachmann representing ALL republicans.
stands for decibels
September 28th, 2009
12:02 pm
Transforming what exists in 5-6 months is unacceptable
I’ve heard some reasonable objections to what’s being proposed, but that it’s happening too gosh-darn fast isn’t one of them. It’s not been debated for 5-6 months, it’s been debated since the 40s.
Also, among the many beefs I have with the watered-down slop being negotiated so’s to ingratiate ConservaDems is that none of this takes effect for years.
If it’s really so all-fired wrong for American, you’d have plenty of time to adjust and even stop these measures.
I Report/ Vast White Wing Conspirator (-: You Whine )-:
September 28th, 2009
12:14 pm
President Barack Obama’s signing of legislation reauthorizing and expanding the State Children’s Health Insurance Program surprised no one, but it raised plenty of concerns among health policy experts and budget watchdogs.
“If we are going to have SCHIP [at all], it should not expand the definition of ‘poor children’ to include people in their twenties or families with incomes up to $80,000 per year when the median in most states is well below that amount,” said Joseph Coletti, a fiscal and health care policy analyst at the John Locke Foundation.
Bruno
September 28th, 2009
12:16 pm
“What happens then? People refuse to buy coverage (= pay into the system) until they need it, knowing they can’t be refused for being sick. Then they buy it when they’re sick or injured, and the insurance companies pay out way more than they take in and go bankrupt.”
You and Jay may think that this is one more good reason to support ObamaCare, but I see it as one more reason NOT to support the mandated purchase of insurance. The fact that the proposed system can be “gamed” so easily should be cause for alarm to begin with. Rather than resorting to Draconian fines, why not engineer a reliable system from the gitgo?
From the way I see it, medical bills come in different sizes. For small to medium range bills, say less than $10,000, the simplest, most cost-efficient way to pay is directly out-of-pocket (or through a payment plan if necessary). Sliding scale payments could be arranged for the poor. Because the consumer is directly involved with the transaction, 90% of the waste and fraud will be eliminated immediately.
For catastrophic bills, those costs have to ultimately be shared by all of us one way or another. As such, we might as well be honest about the situation and consider a “single-payer” system for bills exceeding a certain level. In that way, we are all automatically “enrolled” with no policing and fines necessary.
I Report/ Vast White Wing Conspirator (-: You Whine )-:
September 28th, 2009
12:16 pm
Yes, TN, I learned all about the chain of command from all the liberal whining that Bush wasn’t listening to his generals, most of them retired, as I recall.
stands for decibels
September 28th, 2009
12:17 pm
Can’t say it’s surprising, but it seems Big Tobaccky was apparently funding Betsy McCaughey’s concern-trolling against “hillarycare” back in the day.
During the debate over Clinton’s health care overhaul in the early 1990s, McCaughey — then an academic at the right-wing Manhattan Institute — wrote an article for The New Republic called “No Exit,” in which she claimed that Hillarycare would prevent even wealthy Americans from “going outside the system to purchase basic health coverage you think is better.” Even though the bill plainly stated that “nothing in this Act” would prohibit consumers from purchasing additional care, McCaughey’s claim was echoed endlessly in the press, with each repetition pounding a stake further into the heart of the reform effort.
McCaughey’s lies were later debunked in a 1995 post-mortem in The Atlantic, and The New Republic recanted the piece in 2006. But what has not been reported until now is that McCaughey’s writing was influenced by Philip Morris, the world’s largest tobacco company, as part of a secret campaign to scuttle Clinton’s health care reform. (The measure would have been funded by a huge increase in tobacco taxes.) In an internal company memo from March 1994, the tobacco giant detailed its strategy to derail Hillarycare through an alliance with conservative think tanks, front groups and media outlets. Integral to the company’s strategy, the memo observed, was an effort to “work on the development of favorable pieces” with “friendly contacts in the media.” The memo, prepared by a Philip Morris executive, mentions only one author by name:
“Worked off-the-record with Manhattan and writer Betsy McCaughey as part of the input to the three-part exposé in The New Republic on what the Clinton plan means to you. The first part detailed specifics of the plan.”
USinUK
September 28th, 2009
12:18 pm
wow … the John Locke Foundation is against a gummint program???
say it isn’t so!!!
http://www.johnlocke.org/about/
next thing, you’ll tell me that the sun will rise in the east!!!
Hef
September 28th, 2009
12:20 pm
Big Smile@9:48 – I would like to think I have compassion for my fellow man(choice word-think),but that compassion is really being tested. I must admit I wonder when the FREE rides will end. Will it stop with Health Care? Why should it? If not, then why not offer FREE dental,auto,home,land,business,etc insurance. Why do we have to pay for food,gas,utilities,vehicle payments,mortages,the list can go on and on.When will enough taxes be enough taxes? When do people take responsibilty for they’re own lives? Charity for the poor,in my mind should be elective not a requirement. When will we hold Govmnt accountable for waste,corruption,and mis-management of OUR monies? When will the American people be able to TRUST our elected officials? When will our elected officials ever work together to do do the people’s work? The people on this and countless other blogs proove that trust is a major obstacle,and the thought of an agenda is always in the back of alot people minds. This once proud and great nation is on a major down slope,I just hope we the people don’t ruin it for future generations. Cheesey thoughts I know
Disgusted
September 28th, 2009
12:25 pm
Mandatory insurance coverage is the only way to avoid the disaster that Matilda sees for insurance companies if those companies are not allowed to exclude those with preexisting conditions. Who deliberately avoids health insurance coverage now? It’s the young and healthy. Who is most likely to seek health insurance coverage? It’s the sick. Insurers refer to the latter as most likely to practice anti-selection, or selection against the insurer. If all are insured, regardless of health, the financial risk borne by the insurance companies is spread out over hundreds of millions, and the increase in costs becomes minimal. However, if you really want to bankrupt most private health insurance companies, just prohibit preexisting conditions clauses and then make insurance coverage voluntary. That’s a sure way to drive private health insurance out of business or else make the premiums skyrocket for existing insureds. Voluntary coverage simply won’t work if insurers are forced to accept anyone who applies.
I Report/ Vast White Wing Conspirator (-: You Whine )-:
September 28th, 2009
12:25 pm
Arkansas Sen. Blanche Lincoln has run two successful Senate campaigns on pledges to expand and improve health insurance coverage.
“Health care is huge in Arkansas. I can’t walk through a Walmart or Baptist hospital without getting a question about it,” said state Sen. Gilbert Baker, one of a half-dozen Republicans vying for a chance to challenge Lincoln and tie her to President Barack Obama’s health care proposals.
Eighteen Democratic Senate seats are up for election next year, and most had been considered relatively safe — until Obama’s push to reform the health care system energized conservative activists and turned independent voters into skeptics.-Politico
hehehehe, send her to the old RINO home.
Bruno
September 28th, 2009
12:25 pm
“A note: recent studies have indicated that multitasking results in none of the tasks being accomplished well.”
jryder, I think you hit the nail on the head with that analysis. From my perspective, there are three problems with health care today, which probably require three different solutions. (1) Overall costs, 55% of which are wasted dollars. (2) How to fairly treat those among us who have chronic health conditions (3) How to fairly pay for catastrophic care.
Obama is trying to kill three birds with one stone, and I don’t think it can be done.
stands for decibels
September 28th, 2009
12:27 pm
So now that I’ve told you that I don’t much care if some states offer SCHIP to families with incomes above GA’s 51K limit, Whiner replies with… well nothing, actually. Copy/paste of a fellow whiner who is whining.
Have you bothered to check to see exactly where (and even if?) such income levels are permitted?
Might they be in, say, the NYC metro area, where median rental for a two (2) bedroom apartment is $1,751/month?
Come on, Andy, put a little effort into this. It’s like you don’t really care about getting spanked yet again in 2010. Think of the little indoctrinated children!
Matilda
September 28th, 2009
12:30 pm
“Rather than resorting to Draconian fines, why not engineer a reliable system from the gitgo?”
Good question! I have also wondered why my Congressman and the rest of the Republicans didn’t do that when they had control over the House, Senate, and White House. They’re constantly chirping about their great ideas now, and pleading not to be shut out of the debate, but they’d have a lot more cred if they had cared when they had the opportunity to do something.
I don’t believe any of us can fully grasp this complex issue and all the ramifications in its entirety, and there’s no single “magic bullet” that will fix everything. What I want is an earnest effort to replace the “lets do nothing” and “let God sort ‘em out” approach we have now. We need more smart people who CARE to get involved, so if you feel you can help, I encourage you to try. Just saying “NO!” isn’t very helpful, IMO, but that’s just my opinion.
Rightwing Troll
September 28th, 2009
12:33 pm
“You know, the 50 million people from impoverished country’s that are willing to work for half of what a US citizen would.”
And produce twice as much.
And be on time.
And not answer the cell phone every 15 mins.
And not need every other day off for probation appts, dr office, etc…