Good thing we don’t ration health care in the USA
OXFORD — Friends say the Miami University graduate who died this week after reportedly suffering from swine flu delayed getting medical treatment because she did not have health insurance.
Kimberly Young
News of Kimberly Young’s death Wednesday, Sept. 23, came as a shock to those who knew the vibrant 22-year-old who was working at least two jobs in Oxford after graduating with a double major in December 2008.
Young became ill about two weeks ago, but didn’t seek care initially because she didn’t have health insurance and was worried about the cost, according to Brent Mowery, her friend and former roommate.
Later stories suggest Young died of viral pneumonia, rather than swine flu.
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403 comments Add your comment
mike
September 27th, 2009
8:01 pm
“Dr Chad” –
““On Sept. 24, Miami officials posted a notice to students, reminding them if they showed signs of the flu to see a doctor or go to the student health center.
If a roommate or friend exhibits any of these signs, please encourage them not to wait to seek help,” the notice stated. “If you become ill and have a history of asthma or any other chronic respiratory disease, you should seek medical care right away. We also recommend that you contact your family and your medical specialist.””
Notice that they didn’t say “if you have insurance” or “if you can afford it”.
mike
September 27th, 2009
8:04 pm
For some reason, some folks seem to think that the government’s job is to eliminate all tragedy from life and want to deem it “broken” if anyone ever does experience tragedy. We saw this with Katrina and we see that in this case.
Neither government nor “the market” is going to prevent tragedy from occurring.
Public Option's Doing Swell
September 27th, 2009
8:15 pm
John Kyle, all the Blue Dogs, and Democrat Menendez are basically functioning as the exclusive whore service for insurance companies and have done everything they can to delay a public option, and other health care reform provisions that would establish competition for their johns the insurance companies. That’s how hookers work. High priced call girls or boys (Blue Dogs and Republicans and Menendez. They have so far offered no substantive argument, and amazingly last week they explicitly tried to slow walk the bill so that according to Bob Bennett and Olympia Snow (and this is all over the web) the hookers’ insurance company jonh’s lobbyists would have 72 hours to object to each amendment presented for vote before the vote.
In the Senate if you can slow walk a bill enough, you can kill it.
What’s begun to happen is that after all the hoopla of the Senate Finance Six who represented 2.2% of the US, the more influential powerful membeate rs of the Senate started countering them for the first time in months last week. That includes Schumer and Rockerfeller and Stabenow.
Of course as people are wont to point out, every politician in the Senate and House raises money from lobbyists and corporations who want legislation. Georgia Power and Southern company give more money than any companies in the world to Congress and the Georgia, Alabama and Misssisippi legislatures as well.
But the specific amounts from specific insurance companies and pharmaceutical companies for all people opposed to health care reform, but on the Senate Finance and certain House Committees in particular have been astranomical, and they are listed in many places on the web. I’ve linked them over 2 dozen times.
http://www.campaignmoney.org/pressroom/2009/07/27/elected-officials-voting-against-health-reform-received-65-more-in-industry-campaign-donations-than-those-v
http://www.campaignmoney.org/threevotes
Kylre remarked Friday that he didn’t see the need for maternity provisions in insurance because he has never gotten pregnant. He was reminded his mother got pregnant although I could argue Kyle may have come from somewhere else.
We’ve had a trigger for insurance company abuse now for 15 years. A trigger is a joke because it enforces nothing. Kyle and his hookers want to continue a trigger to a public option. It’s a ruse for fools who want to kill a public option or competition for insurance companies that no one is forced to join and in some bills can’t get into unless they have no insurance (lost or otherwise).
To support the trigger idea you must also believe that even after the new regulated marketplace is put in place there is still a distinct possibility that insurance companies will continue to rapidly increase premiums and treat customers badly. You must believe that it is possible that our new health insurance marketplace could turn out to have many problems because of the lack of a public option.
When a politician says he supports the trigger idea, he is telling his constituents, “I know insurance companies treat their clients badly and charge way too much for their products. I know there is a way the government could create a public option that would help millions of Americans with these problems, but helping people is not my top priority. I think it is much more important to give large for-profit corporations another chance to screw over the American people.”
I Report/ Vast White Wing Conspirator (-: You Whine )-:
September 27th, 2009
8:22 pm
CHICAGO (Reuters) – Time Warner Inc will eventually sell the Time Inc magazine unit and could buy holdings in its core entertainment category, Gordon Crawford, managing director of its largest shareholder, said during a presentation this week.
Will the nastiness and depravity be included in the sale?
I Report/ Vast White Wing Conspirator (-: You Whine )-:
September 27th, 2009
8:28 pm
WASHINGTON — Bill Clinton says a vast, right-wing conspiracy that once targeted him is now focusing on President Barack Obama.
Well, it so nice of you to notice, bubba.
I do what I can.
mike
September 27th, 2009
8:28 pm
Dr Chad –
“John Kyle, all the Blue Dogs, and Democrat Menendez are basically functioning as the exclusive whore service for insurance companies”
Well, that sure is an effective argument for health care reform. Are you sure you don’t want to pretend that you got a degree in journalism too?
mike
September 27th, 2009
8:30 pm
Dr Chad –
“When a politician says he supports the trigger idea, he is telling his constituents, “I know insurance companies treat their clients badly and charge way too much for their products. I know there is a way the government could create a public option that would help millions of Americans with these problems, but helping people is not my top priority. I think it is much more important to give large for-profit corporations another chance to screw over the American people.””
Right!! Anyone who does not share your policy views has only one goal: screwing over the American people.
It must be nice to be able to believe that anyone who disagrees with you is evil.
mike
September 27th, 2009
8:37 pm
Dr Chad –
“Kylre remarked Friday that he didn’t see the need for maternity provisions in insurance because he has never gotten pregnant. He was reminded his mother got pregnant although I could argue Kyle may have come from somewhere else.”
More lies. What he was saying was that people should not have to buy insurance they don’t need. He used the example that if he was buying insurance, he would have no need to for maternity coverage. I agree. Why should an elderly, gay and/or single man have to buy maternity insurance?
The comment about his mother was stupid. Kyle would not saying pregnant women should not be covered, he was saying that he shouldn’t have to buy maternity coverage if he has no use for it.
Claiming that he was “he didn’t see the need for maternity provisions in insurance” is untrue., but that is par for the course for the “doctor”.
Ever get tired of being wrong?
Jackie
September 27th, 2009
8:52 pm
@Public Option’s Doing Swell
You arguments have been well reasoned and documented, yet the so-called conservatives still refuse to accept any facts that are contrary to their “set of facts.”
To go along with your information, many want to dispute your medical knowledge, without the benefit of having a medical degree themselves. They will continue to cling to their positions even though they see the ground fast approaching. They fail to understand “it is not the jump that gets you, it is the SUDDEN stop!”
mike
September 27th, 2009
8:58 pm
Jackie –
“You arguments have been well reasoned and documented, yet the so-called conservatives still refuse to accept any facts that are contrary to their “set of facts.””
Hmm. Since his arguments are so well reasoned, can you give us a summary? I bet you can’t. All he has done is called people whores and provided false information.
“To go along with your information, many want to dispute your medical knowledge, without the benefit of having a medical degree themselves.”
First of all, Chad has no medical degree.
Second of all, do you have a medical degree? If not, why are you commenting on health care?
“They will continue to cling to their positions even though they see the ground fast approaching.”
And what exactly is my position? You are clearly talking about me, as I am the only one who has been talking to the “Dr”.
Since you are such an excellent critic of debate, surely you can give brief summaries of Chad’s position and my position.
My guess is that facts and arguments have nothing to do with your “analysis”. As your silly rhetoric indicates, you are just another bleating sheep who just cheers on anyone who seems to share your views, regardless of how badly his arguments have been exposed as rubbish.
TnGelding
September 27th, 2009
9:06 pm
I Report/ Vast White Wing Conspirator (-: You Whine )-:
September 27th, 2009
8:28 pm
Keep on keeping on. You’re helping our cause.
Taxpayer
September 27th, 2009
9:07 pm
mike,
do give us a Rutgers educated executive summary of this evening’s discussion, won’t you my good man. Do try to impress us with your succinctness. And, while you’re at it, would you pass the grey poupon.
Taxpayer
September 27th, 2009
9:08 pm
TnGelding
September 27th, 2009
9:06 pm
I’m convinced they don’t have a clue.
TnGelding
September 27th, 2009
9:09 pm
The rest of the story:
Bill Clinton speaks of vast, right-wing conspiracy
(AP) – 12 hours ago
WASHINGTON — Bill Clinton says a vast, right-wing conspiracy that once targeted him is now focusing on President Barack Obama.
The ex-president made the comment in a television interview when he was asked about one of the signature moments of the Monica Lewinsky affair over a decade ago. Back then, first lady Hillary Rodham Clinton used the term “vast, right-wing conspiracy” to describe how her husband’s political enemies were out to destroy his presidency.
Bill Clinton was asked on NBC’s “Meet the Press” whether the conspiracy is still there. He replied: “You bet. Sure it is. It’s not as strong as it was because America has changed demographically. But it’s as virulent as it was.”
Clinton said that this time around, the focus is on Obama and “their agenda seems to be wanting him to fail.”
mike
September 27th, 2009
9:10 pm
TnGelding –
“Keep on keeping on. You’re helping our cause.”
Yeah but for every Whiner there is a Taxpayer. On this blog, in particular, we have a bunch of folks to cancel out Whiner: Public Option, Midori, AmVet, getreal, etc.
mike
September 27th, 2009
9:10 pm
Excuse me: getalife, not getreal.
Jackie
September 27th, 2009
9:13 pm
@Mike
I can give you a well-reasoned summary immediately.
You make your argument based on the belief the person that died was still a student a Miami of Ohio. SHE WAS A GRADUATE, therefore, her health care was no longer part of her tuition.
Now, if she stated to her roommate she did not go to the health care facility because of the cost associated with treatment, what argument can YOU present that shows she was somehow responsible for her demise?
Third, you fail to accept the fact that health care, in many instances is self-diagnosed and self-medicated, therefore many of us – you included – make assumptions that “we will get better in three days.”
I do not have a medical degree, nor do I believe you do. I do have a VERY GOOD understanding of insurance, therefore, we could debate your resistance to the public option.
Now, give a cogent rejoinder!
mike
September 27th, 2009
9:14 pm
TnGelding –
Actually Clinton is right. There is a vast right-wing conspiracy against Obama. Against most Democrats in fact.
It is also true that there is a vast left-wing conspiracy against Republicans.
A cornerstone of both conspiracies is the deception and manipulation of mindless partisans with the intention of making them believe that their targets are bad people. The only people who don’t see that are the mindless partisans in question. See my list above for a good starting roster.
Taxpayer
September 27th, 2009
9:21 pm
Poor mike and his conspiracy theories. His little Rutgers educated mind and executive experience at a ‘Fortume 500′ Company (whatever that is) have equipped him to become the pontificating blogger that we have all come to know all too well. The poor thing.
Public Option's Doing Swell
September 27th, 2009
9:22 pm
Many of us have made detailed arguments for health care reform and Mr. Bookman archives all of his threads back before we made them.
I’m getting a little tired of making them. Kyle’s insurance company johns and the state of Arizona decide the benefits package for the pool Kyle is in. If Kyle wants the law changed so that maternity coverage isn’t included in the benefits, he will have to pursuade the Arizona legislature basically because a stripped down worthless piece of crap federal policy across state lines ain’t passing federally.
I’m not focused on these people being against what I want personally. I’m focused on gettting affordable insurance for as many people as possible, and that’s going to require competition. Right now with 2 insurance companies controlling 94% of the US we don’t have it.
And I have a lot of people with me. I have doctors in the only credible polls strongly with me. I have the American people. And in the CBS NYT poll that I didn’t cherry pick–Obama is where he is on Afghanistan because this country doesn’t know what he’s going to do and they aren’t behind more troops.
The poll showed in every category Obama was doing fine except for one and that one is that the American people are still confused as to what his plan is. So am I because we really don’t know although I think he’d be willing to accept a watered down piece of crap and put a little black dress and some Eva Longuria makeup on it.
I’m hoping that won’t be the case. It will require the democrats to find something they haven’t had much of lately–a bakebone and the house to remian firm on a public option. We’ll find out.
Again Senate Finance doesn’t mean near as much as the SF 6 sold to their johns. Now they are realizing their hookers aren’t all that but they have to screw the ones that brung ‘em.
Did you think when the CBO Dr. Elmendorf reported that exchanges/ coops are worthless (only 2 really are left in this country and they’re small and no competition for insurance companies and have done nothing to stop the atrocious premiums and deductibles) and Elmendorf reported that a public option would save the economy $110 billion dollars that he was high on something? Because until he did both, Elmendorf was the sweetheart of Sigma Chi for the Repubx and the Blue Dogs. They couldn’t get enough of him, until he told it like it was on issues that threaten their whore business.
And the pharm whoring is about maintaining the instability of Medicare by banning competition for drug purchases the way Piedmont and Emory and Northside do.
Taxpayer
September 27th, 2009
9:23 pm
Now, give a cogent rejoinder!
He could not accomplish that task even when sober, Jackie.
Public Option's Doing Swell
September 27th, 2009
9:24 pm
They need a backbone, a bakebone, and a full set of spinous processes.
TnGelding
September 27th, 2009
9:27 pm
mike
September 27th, 2009
9:14 pm
You’re right, it goes both ways. I hope I don’t fall into that category. I try to keep an open mind. We’ve been bickering over the same issues for decades until they’ve reached critical mass. Something has to be done on health care, entitlements, immigration, transportation, energy, deficits and debt, government waste, fraud and abuse, to name a few.
Kamchak
September 27th, 2009
9:28 pm
…mindless partisans with the intention of making them believe that their targets are bad people.
Another one off the list. You are doing a fine job mike, stay on message.
mike
September 27th, 2009
9:31 pm
Jackie –
“You make your argument based on the belief the person that died was still a student a Miami of Ohio. SHE WAS A GRADUATE, therefore, her health care was no longer part of her tuition.”
I was wrong about that but so was Public Option who you are applauding, so it is a wash.
Regardless, that wasn’t my point at all and you would have to go to great lengths to ignore my actual point, as I made it over and over again.
My first point was that she had access to health care but chose not to avail herself of it. She might have gotten a bill, but it would not have ruined her financially. (This seems particularly true because she is well remembered for the overseas human rights tourism trips she took on multiple occasions.)
My second point is that she actually did receive medical care when she asked for it. Expensive care.
My third point is that there is no basis to claim that this tragedy has anything to do with “rationing” as Jay claims.
Feel free to address my actual points.
“Now, if she stated to her roommate she did not go to the health care facility because of the cost associated with treatment, what argument can YOU present that shows she was somehow responsible for her demise?”
Well, let’s be clear. I feel terribly for this girl and don’t want to attack her. That being said, she could have gotten care if she had tried to and she would be alive if she did. I am more interested in claiming that it is not the fault of the system, as so many have claimed. The system would have worked if she had availed herself of it.
I also believe, but have no evidence, that this woman may have been led to believe that the bills would ruin her forever or that she would be turned away without insurance. These claims are core to the fearmongering that people like Jay are engaging in. It appears to be just as deceptive and destructive as the “death panel” talk of the mindless partisans on the right.
“Third, you fail to accept the fact that health care, in many instances is self-diagnosed and self-medicated, therefore many of us – you included – make assumptions that “we will get better in three days.””
Of course I accept that fact. Why do you believe that I don’t?
Take your partisan goggles off for a sec. I am not trying to attack the girl. I am trying to attack the claim that our current health policy is responsible. (And before you go off on a rant, I do believe the system needs reform, just not the reform that Public Option wants.)
“I do not have a medical degree, nor do I believe you do. ”
Missing the point yet again. You were whining that I would dare question Dr Chad when I don’t have a degree. I think we both agree that we don’t need to have a medical degree to discuss health care, just as I don’t demand that Chad have experience in the corporate world to comment on that.
“I do have a VERY GOOD understanding of insurance, therefore, we could debate your resistance to the public option.”
My resistence to the public option is tepid. Combining the outright lies coming from both sides with the utter guessworks as to the outcome of such a policy, I don’t really know what the result would be.
I am more interested in exposing partisan hack pundits and their followers. They are the real cancer in the system. If it wasn’t for people like chad calling people “whores” or his peers on the right, we could have a civil and rational debate that might actually result in an informed decision.
Jackie
September 27th, 2009
9:32 pm
@Taxpayer
I feel strongly, the so-called conservatives follow an old James Brown song closely, “Talkin’ Loud and Sayin’ Nuthin’.”
I have come to believe they can easily be characterized by their use of CONFLATION, EXTRAPOLATION and OBFUSCATION. Notice how they present their arguments and facts.
mike
September 27th, 2009
9:33 pm
Kamchak –
Nice to see you, groupie. Your obsession with me is flattering, but creepy.
Ever going to respond to anything with more than an empty one-sentence zinger? Doubt it.
mike
September 27th, 2009
9:36 pm
Jackie –
“Notice how they present their arguments and facts.”
I broke down your argument chunk by chunk and responded to each point.
Please let me know what you are doing to “present your facts” that I am not. Besides shouting in caps that is
You can tell when mindless partisans are defeated when they don’t even try to stay on subject. Instead it is back to the school yard so they can show how “tolerant” and “intellectual” they are. LOL
Taxpayer
September 27th, 2009
9:39 pm
mike,
you get precisely what you have earned from bloggers here.
DoggoneGA
September 27th, 2009
9:39 pm
“Nice to see you, groupie”
Awww…Kamchak….I’m jealous. I’ve been supplanted as a Mikey groupie! I’m gonna cry.
mike
September 27th, 2009
9:40 pm
TnGelding –
“You’re right, it goes both ways. I hope I don’t fall into that category.”
I hear you. I have the same concerns about myself sometimes, but the fact that you even recognize that the behavior is the same across the political spectrum is the biggest indicator. Not being to make that distinction is the epitome of mindless partisanship.
“I try to keep an open mind. We’ve been bickering over the same issues for decades until they’ve reached critical mass. Something has to be done on health care, entitlements, immigration, transportation, energy, deficits and debt, government waste, fraud and abuse, to name a few.”
I totally agree and I would love to see Obama accomplish achievements in these areas, even if I don’t agree with every policy. I think most Americans agree. Unfortunately, folks like Jay and Glen Beck whip up the stupidest and loudest people and they end up driving the debate. Americans need to drown out these partisan fools from both sides. They are the ones standing in the way of health care reform.
Jackie
September 27th, 2009
9:41 pm
@Mike
If you stop to look at the larger picture, health is rationed by the size of one’s bank account. Typically, a family of four has a monthly health care premium of roughly $1,800. With that monthly outlay, what liabilities are associated with that contract? Enormous deductibles, co-pays and capital restrictions. As you well know, insurance is based upon putting those customers who choose “Company A” into a pool and their risks are accessed. A determination is made is to how much it may cost the company in outlays vs. the premiums needed to cover those costs. On top of those primary items, do you realize insurance companies are allowed to collude? If you have insurance and your spouse has insurance, the companies call each other and determine how much each will pay for the contingency.
Secondly, a major part of the insurance experience is the adjuster. Their job is to pay you as little as they can even though your contract says they are obligated to pay a specific amount for a specific contingency.
mike
September 27th, 2009
9:43 pm
Taxpayer –
“you get precisely what you have earned from bloggers here.”
What? Awed reverence? Obsession? Fear to engage with anything beyond empty zingers because I have embarrassed you in past arguments? (in your case, your claim that a $700 billion dollar debt could be paid in over 20 years at only 35 billion a year.)
Be specific.
I Report/ Vast White Wing Conspirator (-: You Whine )-:
September 27th, 2009
9:43 pm
Oh yeah, TN, the “vast right wing conspiracy” made Klintoon squirt all over the Oval Office carpets, 10-4.
~~~~~
mike- Cancel this out.
Jackie
September 27th, 2009
9:44 pm
@Mike
I only responded to a greater point by using caps.
I do not have to respond to schoolyard antics to make my point. Have always been taught that if you have to resort to name-calling and profanity, you do not have an argument to present.
DoggoneGA
September 27th, 2009
9:47 pm
Jackie,
“I only responded to a greater point by using caps”
Don’t even worry about Mikey complaining about using CAPS. That’s just a Pavolovian response…he can’t help it.
Taxpayer
September 27th, 2009
9:47 pm
mike must have another hangover. I see the few caps that were used for emphasis by Jackie are exciting his optic nerves. Tell us all about the health care benefits given to the employess at your ‘Fortume 500 Company’, mike. I’m curious why you are now left with a high deductible insurance policy if you put in all those years with a major company, as an executive, no less. For example, even if you retired from a major company, you would still be given access to group coverage. Did you get fired, mike. Or just plain layed off. And, they didn’t even give you any golden parachute award even though you were an executive. There nerve, eh mike. Read your contract next time. hehehe
Kamchak
September 27th, 2009
9:50 pm
DoggoneGA
Any time that you feel obliged to remove the leg-humper from the object-du-minute, feel free to act.
mike
September 27th, 2009
9:51 pm
Jackie –
“If you stop to look at the larger picture, health is rationed by the size of one’s bank account.”
Yep, and so is everything in life. It is a matter of priorities.
“ypically, a family of four has a monthly health care premium of roughly $1,800. With that monthly outlay….”
I agree insurance is expensive. I pay for a family of four. It is expensive and getting more expensive because expensive new medical technologies are constantly invented and people are living longer.
The idea that we can just create a new policy that will make these costs go away is absurd, and this proposed bill does little to focus on cost reduction, which in my view, should be the priority.
“Secondly, a major part of the insurance experience is the adjuster. Their job is to pay you as little as they can even though your contract says they are obligated to pay a specific amount for a specific contingency.”
Right, because unlike our government, they actually have to pay their bills.
This country will never have the money to provide every person every procedure that will keep them alive. It would be wonderful if we did, but we don’t. Both sides need to acknowledge that. It should not be a partisan talking point.
What we are calling “rationing” is going to be a part of the process, no matter what we do. The term itself is misleading. It is not rationing, it is not making commitments to buy whatever procedures may help, no matter how little it helps and how much it costs.
Taxpayer
September 27th, 2009
9:52 pm
mike
September 27th, 2009
9:43 pm
Taxpayer –
“you get precisely what you have earned from bloggers here.”
What? Awed reverence? Obsession? Fear to engage with anything beyond empty zingers because I have embarrassed you in past arguments? (in your case, your claim that a $700 billion dollar debt could be paid in over 20 years at only 35 billion a year.)
Be specific.
mike, allow me to repeat my response from the last time you posted this tripe — LIAR. How do you like those caps, LIAR. And, in case you did not get the word this time mike, you are a LIAR.
mike
September 27th, 2009
9:53 pm
Jackie –
“I do not have to respond to schoolyard antics to make my point. Have always been taught that if you have to resort to name-calling and profanity, you do not have an argument to present.”
Yet, you praised Public Option’s posts, loaded with terms like “whores” and “Repubozos”.
How do you reconcile the two statements?
Jackie
September 27th, 2009
9:54 pm
@Mike
You have to consider that your insurance policy is a contract which is based on the concept of performance and acceptance. That means if a company issues a contract you accept the terms of said contract by paying your money. However, the insurance companies do not have to honor the written contract and you are left to fight to get what you can from that contract.
In that respect, insurance is no longer a contractual commitment but a bet being placed by you in the belief the company will honor its commitment. Much like the derivatives that has caused the economy to implode, don’t you think?
mike
September 27th, 2009
9:55 pm
Jackie –
I agree that relying on name calling is the sign of having nothing to say.
Do you see how the folks on your side are behaving? Just scroll through the silly things that these people scream at me. What do you think of their rhetoric?
thomas
September 27th, 2009
9:56 pm
How is it rationing care if this poor woman recieved care as soon as she asked for it?
Jackie
September 27th, 2009
9:56 pm
@Mike
That foolishness of EXTRAPOLATION, CONFLATION and OBFUSCATION does nothing for me. You are trying to make someone prove a negative based upon the portion of the argument YOU choose to debate. DOES NOT WORK!
Taxpayer
September 27th, 2009
9:56 pm
mike,
I called you out yet again for posting your lies about me, boy. Now come on and show me what you have just like you did the last time I called you out. Run away, again. LIAR. Come on, mike. I’m waiting.
Kamchak
September 27th, 2009
10:00 pm
Taxpayer
Brother, can you spare a jar of Grey Poupon?
mike
September 27th, 2009
10:00 pm
Jackie –
You know I have heard the claim that insurance companies are evil and out to screw with you, but I don’t buy it for a few reasons.
1) Polls demonstrably show that the vast majoruty of US citizens are satisfied with their health care. This would not be the case if they were constantly being denied treatment.
2) It would be an atrocious business practice and would cost the companies business. There isn’t a ton of competition our there, but there is enough to prevent widespread denial of care.
3) I know many people who have had very expensive medical treatment, including members of my own family. I have never heard anyone claim that they were left uncovered. The complaints are about bureaucracy and fees, not denial of coverage.
Jackie
September 27th, 2009
10:00 pm
@Thomas
It is rationing by the size of her pocketbook. She had no insurance, therefore, she delayed her visit to a medical professional because she did not have the money to pay.
tiPublic Option's Doing Swell
September 27th, 2009
10:00 pm
I can’t read all that Mike but having taken care of a number of these I think I can shed some light.
In the first place had this girl had the $800 buck a year insurance at Miami of Ohio, she would in most cases had the chance to continue coverage after graduation, but she didn’t have the money. She was working two jobs. I don’t know what her 4 or more years were, but I do know it’s a pretty decent school and she wasn’t planning on being a career bagle or coffee shop lady for long.
We don’t know what her clinical course was, but she probably was having at some point fever, muscle aches or myalgia, coughing or flu-like symptoms. I have no idea there but I have a sense of what happens. When things go bad they can go bad fast when someone gets septic from a pneumonia or H1N1.
She probably envisioned an outpatient visit, and put it off because she didn’t have the money. She’s young and she may not have had a regular doc except whoever does her pap smears and the last one could have been university health–no way to know. When she got really sick, for all you know she could have been septic, obtunded, and at that point she wasn’t in control of going anywhere–she was being transported in a supine position.
Health care reform that would have provided her coverage would have encouraged her to go for help faster than her friend says she did. The kid says she put it off over money–I’ll bet on that.
And if and when I get my hands on a clinical course on this tragic situation, you can bet I can tie it tightly to death without the money to pay for care or insurance to get it.
You seem to float the idea that any caregivers would have billed her. That’s BS. They would have demanded payment unless and until she was emergent.
You inexplicably take the default Repubozo position that this girl was just indifferent and irresponsible. She was worrked, getting sicker, and her clinical course went downhill fast. She couldn’t afford to sashay into an outpatient clinic. Perhaps she could have asked her parents for money; I have no idea. Maybe they were strapped. By the time she realized she was sick if she even was conscious for much of the time, she wasn’t in control of where she was going.
So this assumption that this kid could go somewhere early on and get billed is not real on planet earth in this day and age, particularly if she didn’t have an established patient relationship and even if she did.
I know what I’ve seen in all kinds of venues, covering for all kinds of docs night after night for years.
Depending on her clinical condition most hospitals would have demanded an insurance card. At some point close to when they shipped this patient from Hampton 40 miles north of UC to UC this girl in all probabilty was in serious trouble. When she got to UC, I’m suture she was septic as hell, and they got her right up from the ER on Clifton avenue to the unit and blood was in the lab stat minutes after that chopper or ambulance hit the ER bay at that hospital.
mike
September 27th, 2009
10:01 pm
Jackie –
“That foolishness of EXTRAPOLATION, CONFLATION and OBFUSCATION does nothing for me. You are trying to make someone prove a negative based upon the portion of the argument YOU choose to debate. DOES NOT WORK!”
Who am I trying to get to prove a negative?
Taxpayer
September 27th, 2009
10:01 pm
Kamchak
September 27th, 2009
10:00 pm
Taxpayer
Brother, can you spare a jar of Grey Poupon?
A dime for your thoughts. hehehe
thomas
September 27th, 2009
10:04 pm
Again, I feel horrible for this young lady.
But can anyone explain to me how, if she recieved medical help as soon as she asked for it, is this anyone elses fault but hers. I say hers because she failed to act upon what must have been obvious symptoms.
She would have been billed for any treatment. Also as long as a payment plan is set up with the hospital the hospital bills would not have went onto her credit report. She could have paid $1 a week until the bill was paid off.
So again I ask how is this the system or insurance companies fault. This was a poor decision by this young lady. Who is to say that if she had insurance she would have been willing to pay the co-pay.
She was never refused care or had her care rationed.
She ratione her own care.
Someone please show me any different.
Cad
September 27th, 2009
10:05 pm
DoggoneGA
September 27th, 2009
9:47 pm
Don’t even worry about Mikey complaining about using CAPS. That’s just a Pavolovian response
If you’re going to use that overused response, at least spell it correctly.
Jackie
September 27th, 2009
10:07 pm
@Mike
Per your 10:00 post.
The insurance companies are not inherently evil, they are in business to make money. I think you will agree the scorecard for business is the bottom line.
The USA and New Zeland are the only two countries in the Western world that allow health care to be a for-profit business.
Denial of coverage is documented. Recent event in LA where hospital was convicted of “dumping.” Poor people that could not pay were told they were being taken to another facility, then driven away and removed from the vehicle at some remote location in the city.
Inside
September 27th, 2009
10:07 pm
Public Option is not a Doctor, he only plays one, here at the AJC blogs.
Dusty
September 27th, 2009
10:09 pm
Do you guys realize that you have been sitting at your computers all day long growling over the “bone” that Bookman threw out for you? HE will use anything that will stir controversy and his aim is to make conservatives look like heartless monsters.
Poor little Kimberly Young! She is being used here as a sob story for politics with the idea projected that hard hearted USA barely supports the health of its citizens.
What an obviously contemptous suggestion. Bookman not only uses the death of Kimberly Young as a political billboard, he berates his own country.. Then his “puppy dogs” here follow right behind him barking “The USA doesn’t have good health care.”:
Get out of that chair and do some pushups, you sluggards. It might make your heads work better. Dust off the spider webs and get out of here. Nothing new has been said since early this morning. You won’t miss a thing.
.
Jackie
September 27th, 2009
10:09 pm
@thomas
If you go into a medical facility and pay cash for your services, you are usually charge 2 to 3 times the amount that a person with an insurance card is charged. The insurance companies have contracts with the doctors, hospitals, drug companies for the services being rendered and your cash is not part of the contract.
thomas
September 27th, 2009
10:10 pm
Jackie, I’m calling BS.
I have been without insurance before as she has. But I went to the doctor and even had my gal bladder remved through surgery. Didn’t have a spec of insurance. But I was informed an knew my options. Had to work 2 jobs after that but it is paid off now. Even found out that a long as I made any payment then the surgery would not go against my credit.
BTW, she thought she could not pay when in reality she would have been billed to pay for any treatment given to her. Did you also know that even if she never paid a dime on her bill there would be nothing that would happen to her worse than her credit being lowered.
Seems to me that you are just using this poor young woman’s story to guilt people into feeling like you do.
She was ignorant and did not know what her options were.
Either her fault or those who have been giving her bad information. I wonder who would have allowed her to think she had no option other than having to pay for evrything right then?
Kamchak
September 27th, 2009
10:10 pm
A dime for your thoughts. hehehe.
A DIME? I FEEL SO CHEAP!
Activity
September 27th, 2009
10:10 pm
Why should anyone blindly believe that Public Option is an MD? In all of his diatribes, he has never proven that he is. He is a fraud.
Jackie
September 27th, 2009
10:10 pm
@Dusty
It is better to a “puppy dog” than a “sheep” that will jump over the cliff regardless of what is known to factual. Watch out for that sudden stop!
thomas
September 27th, 2009
10:13 pm
Jackie, so they charge more!
Again how did that ration her care?
She must have thought money was more important than her life.
She had options and failed to use those options.
Maybe less trips overseas to take care of others. Should have saved some money for herself.
mike
September 27th, 2009
10:13 pm
Public Option’s Doing Swell –
” can’t read all that Mike but having taken care of a number of these I think I can shed some light.”
Oh come on, Doctor. I have waded through your much longer and more tedious posts. Just like the 11 paragraph rant you just dropped on me.
“In the first place had this girl had the $800 buck a year insurance at Miami of Ohio, she would in most cases had the chance to continue coverage after graduation, but she didn’t have the money. ”
Turns our she was not a student, but a grad. We were both wrong. Next point.
” She was working two jobs. I don’t know what her 4 or more years were, but I do know it’s a pretty decent school and she wasn’t planning on being a career bagle or coffee shop lady for long.”
What does this have to do with anything?
“She probably envisioned an outpatient visit, and put it off because she didn’t have the money.”
Well, that was a big mistake on her part. OK, “Dr”. How much of a bill are we talking about?
“Health care reform that would have provided her coverage would have encouraged her to go for help faster than her friend says she did. The kid says she put it off over money–I’ll bet on that.”
Again, a bad and unnecessary decision. She is dead because she wanted to save a small amount of money.
“You inexplicably take the default Repubozo position that this girl was just indifferent and irresponsible.”
More lies. Why do you have to put words in my mouth.
I never said she was “indifferent” and “irresponsible”. I said she was misinformed about how much the treatment would cost due to fear mongers like you and Jay.
“You seem to float the idea that any caregivers would have billed her. That’s BS. They would have demanded payment unless and until she was emergent.”
And if it was not an emergency, the fees would have been minimal.
The notion that this girl died because she did not have the resources to get fairly basic medical attention is absurd. She clearly an intelligent and well known person with a circle of friends who could have helped her.
Tell us doc, how much of a bill would she see for non-emergency treatment of viral pneumonia. Then tell me why a 23 year old college grad with firends, family, employers and probable a credit card or two couldn’t come up with it.
Jackie
September 27th, 2009
10:13 pm
@thomas
I am not using anyone to further my cause, just stating what is true.
By the way, call your hospital and determine if what I said is true. There is not attempt to you make or anyone feel guilty about anything because you will do what you think is best for you as will I.
Guide
September 27th, 2009
10:14 pm
This girl was a dumbazz. She graduated from the Uni of Miami and was working in a sandwich shop? No wonder she never sought treatment – she was too stupid. That’s not the USA’s fault that she was so G%$D@#$ dumb.
mike
September 27th, 2009
10:14 pm
Activity –
“Why should anyone blindly believe that Public Option is an MD?”
Nobody does. Don’t worry.
mike
September 27th, 2009
10:15 pm
Looks like “Guide” is a feeble attempt by a mindless partisan liberal to do a “parody” of those evil old conservatives. It’s almost as funny as it is original.
RollerGirl
September 27th, 2009
10:16 pm
Anyone else get the idea that maybe tiPublic Option’s Doing Swell has a LOT of free time on their hands and is REALLY hoping for this cheapo public option … Is that you, Bill Campbell?
Kamchak
September 27th, 2009
10:17 pm
Nobody does. Don’t worry.
Please don’t presume to speak for me.
mike
September 27th, 2009
10:18 pm
Jackie -
“The USA and New Zeland are the only two countries in the Western world that allow health care to be a for-profit business.”
That stat means nothing to me. A policy works or it doesn’t. I don’t care what other countries adopt it.
“Denial of coverage is documented. Recent event in LA where hospital was convicted of “dumping.” Poor people that could not pay were told they were being taken to another facility, then driven away and removed from the vehicle at some remote location in the city.”
Please provide a link so that I can see what you are talking about. I need some context to know what, if anything, this means.
mike
September 27th, 2009
10:19 pm
Kamchak –
“Please don’t presume to speak for me.”
Ah, little buddy. I would never claim to speak for you. All I can do is make you speak. Short and empty speeches.
Jackie
September 27th, 2009
10:20 pm
@thomas
If you have ever had a cold or other malady, you have self-diagnosed and self-medicated, like all of us have. This put you and all of us who have done the same in the same position this young woman was in.
She sought medical treatment and was flown to a hospital in Cincinnatti, but it was too late for viral pneumonia.
mike
September 27th, 2009
10:20 pm
Jackie –
Why do you applaud Public Option, yet claim that name calling and vulgarity are the sign of nothing to say?
What is the negative I am trying to get someone to prove?
Kamchak
September 27th, 2009
10:21 pm
Anyone else get the idea that maybe RollerGirl is tUeSdAy VaNdY GiRl?
mike
September 27th, 2009
10:22 pm
Apart from all of the other conversations, does anyone buy Jay’s argument that this death was due to “rationing” of health care?
PODS is not an MD
September 27th, 2009
10:23 pm
PODS cares so much to tell us that 1) he/she is an MD 2) he/she is the only qualified person to speak on this matter 3) no one is smarter than he/she. Did I mention that he/she thinks that he is the most intelligent person among his peers?
Taxpayer
September 27th, 2009
10:23 pm
Kamchak,
Back in the days of the real “Brother, can you spare a dime,” a dime was still made with silver and it would actually buy something. Nowadays, US currency has been cheapened by the likes of CEOs and the multi-million dollars bonuses and salaries and golden parachutes. In short, it is truly worthless. That certainly explains why healthcare costs so much these days. The dollar’s true value is something on the order of a high quality one-ply.
PODS is not an MD
September 27th, 2009
10:23 pm
Hell no – it had nothing to do with rationing.
Jackie
September 27th, 2009
10:24 pm
@thomas
Here is one of many links that you can find.
http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/145799.php
mike
September 27th, 2009
10:24 pm
It is amazing to me that the esteemed Dr. Chad whines that it is too much for him to read my posts, yet I am able to read and destroy his much longer posts in a few seconds?
I mean I am a dumb old evil conservative. Surely this lettered academic can read faster than me.
thomas
September 27th, 2009
10:25 pm
Jackie,
That is a false staatement.
You are using this girls death to get out information in support of your opinion. That is exactly what you are doing.
I know that hospitals charge more as I assume that is what you want me to call the hospital about. However they will also work with you as I expressed in my personal situation.
I have been where this young lady was. My stomach was hurting and very painful. Decided to go to a doctor I had no insurance either…….. If my Gall Bladder had busted through a stone I would have been at risk for death.
See Jackie, the difference between me and this young lady is not money, I was informed she was not.
So I ask 2 questions.
Since she would not have needed cash before treatment, how was money a motive for not going to seek medical attntion?
2nd question: Where do you think she got the idea that she could not afford medical attention, thus causing her to not seek any?
Jackie
September 27th, 2009
10:26 pm
@Mike
Again, this attempt to get me to argue a negative and argue the point the you choose to define is a non-starter.
I have never said that I applauded Public Option, just pointed out that I agree with the position and facts posted.
Taxpayer
September 27th, 2009
10:27 pm
Kamchak
September 27th, 2009
10:17 pm
Nobody does. Don’t worry.
Please don’t presume to speak for me.
Or me, LIAR. By the way, did I mention that mike is still a LIAR.
mike
September 27th, 2009
10:28 pm
Jackie –
OK, you are talking about the chronically homeless. This is different case and has much more to do with housing the indigent than it does health care.
I think we can all agree that these folks are among the most helpless and deserve special attention. Healthcare reform should provide health care to the mentally disabled who have no connection to society.
Jackie
September 27th, 2009
10:28 pm
@thomas
I will have to disagree with you profusely. You and I both know that you have had different maladies that you have determined you will get treated later. It goes without question.
For you to pretend that you have not been in that position is preposterous.
thomas
September 27th, 2009
10:31 pm
Jackie,
I can only assume that you thought I would not look at the link. That had nothing at all, not even close to do with this subject matter of rationing care based on ability to pay. Those homeless were taken in with the knowledge they were homeless. The hospital should be ashamed.
Why would you try a bait and switch like that?
Kinda dishonorable or uneducated and you do not seem dumb.
Manipulative, maybe but not dumb.
Still no answer, how was she actually denied/rationed any care?
If she wanted it she would have been provided. She was using hr free will to make a choice.
Do you think the gov’t needs to step in and prevent us from our own bad decisions now?
PODS is not an MD
September 27th, 2009
10:31 pm
Taxpayer is a liar as well. He claims to pay all of his taxes, but he fudges on his charitable contributions EVERY SINGLE YEAR. He finds and exploits every loop hole out there and then pounds his chest and YELLS – “I AM TAXPAYER! HERE ME ROAR!”
Jackie
September 27th, 2009
10:31 pm
@mike
I am talking about ANY patient in ANY hospital in ANY state, county, city.
There was a case, I believe, at Grady where the patient sat in the waiting room for the ER and died even after she complained to the medical staff. If I remember correctly, this woman sat in the ER for more than 8 hours.
PODS is not an MD
September 27th, 2009
10:33 pm
I AM TAXPAYER! I AM THE ONLY ONE THAT WILL BE HEARD!
Jackie
September 27th, 2009
10:33 pm
@thomas
We do not have to get into the uneducated and dumb argument as your post clearly show where you are coming from.
Looking at the link I provided gives only a small insight as to a nationwide problem. I hope you are not inferring that the mentally ill are not ill and the homeless are not deserving?
mike
September 27th, 2009
10:34 pm
Jackie –
“I have never said that I applauded Public Option, just pointed out that I agree with the position and facts posted.”
OK, now I know what you are talking about, but there is no negative that I was trying to prove.
At 8:52, you said:
“You arguments have been well reasoned and documented, yet the so-called conservatives still refuse to accept any facts that are contrary to their “set of facts.””
Ok, so you are “complimenting” his arguments, yet they are filled with the vulgar name calling you claim to be the sign of nothing to say.
(You might want to take it easy with the silly rant about “EXTRAPOLATION, CONFLATION and OBFUSCATION”. It is just empty boilerplate rhetoric and had nothing to do with any argument I was making.)
Noting that your post at 8:52 made me realize how much time I have wasted here.
It was nice chatting with you Jackie. Have a good night.
thomas
September 27th, 2009
10:34 pm
Jackie,
No i have waited to go have things looked at. Usually because I am too busy at the time and my selfish need to get things done has prevented me from being healthy more than once.
Oly difference is I never tried to make an argument for Public Option or that my care was rationed.
See I rationed my own care in every single one of the cases you ask about.
As did she.
Please I am begging you to show me 1 single person or group who rationed her care.
And also please show how that person or group did more to ration her care than she herself rationed her care?
Kamchak
September 27th, 2009
10:35 pm
Taxpayer
My first job was in the fast-food industry, and I bought many silver dimes, quarters and half-dollars from the register–the manager didn’t care, he was only interested in that the register “balanced.” I could always tell the silver–it had a special ring. Our currency has been back by the faith the populace holds for itself–at least as far as I can remember.
Then along comes RWR with his message that government isn’t the solution; it is the problem. A man that is titular head of this nation saying, that in effect, he is the problem. The irony that he is still deified still ceases to amaze me.
Jackie
September 27th, 2009
10:35 pm
@Mike
Nowhere have you seen me argue just for the homeless. I am basing my argument on the fact that all of us, including you, need relief from this inane health care policy.
PODS is not an MD
September 27th, 2009
10:36 pm
Jackie – that’s life. Sometimes the deck is stacked against you. Not EVERYONE can be saved. There will be many that die. We are not meant to live forever. Our days our numbered from the day we are born. Some go quicker than others… that’s life.
tiPublic Option's Doing Swell
September 27th, 2009
10:36 pm
@ Thomas–
I can’t and won’t do this forever and I have lost patience with Mike’s crazy rambling, but I will comment on your departure from reality as we know it in medicine.
She didn’t necessarily and most probably fail to act on what would have been obvious symptoms. I’ve just explained what can happen. I’ve taken care of thousands of these–how ’bout you Thomas.
Kid gets sick but her symptoms aren’t obvious as anything but mild flu. She doesn’t have money and thinks it’ll get better on its own. I don’t know what her symptom time line is, and I’m in a helluva lot better position to size it up than you are Thomas. It’s what I do for years.
I explained. She tells her friends she doesn’t feel good but doesn’t have the money. Her symptoms for whatever she had could have run the gamut early on. One paper says one week before she went to hospital; another says two. Depending on what she had the incubation period and early on course could have been near asymptomatic or mild.
She puts off going; she doesn’t have a regular doc and not a lot of resources. If mom and dad were asked and knew she was sick, they would have come to her.
They would have gotten her help.
Then depending on WHAT SHE HAD, a bacterial pneumonia, H1N1, or any other kind of pneumonia–viral, (35% of pneumonias are S. Pneumonia) and although most get well when promptly treated (I’d bet Augmentin is the most common launch or a macrolide like Zmax if they’re sicker) if it gets blood bourne 20% of them die. She could have had mycoplasma pneumonia, and I could construct a long list. I wish I had a nickle for every article I read on pneumonia over the last 20 years. Some viral pneumonias have subtle symptoms until they get worse; it’s that simple.
So bottom line her symptoms didn’t have to be “obvious and clear cut” and different people handle them differently any way. She probably did not know she had a serious illness early on, and early on whatever she had may not have been serious at that point. Prompt treatment would have proably gotten her well.
She’s trying to figure out how to get help, and for all you know she’s not that symptomatic and bang suddenly sepsis sets in and she’s in trouble. It happens all the frigging time to patients who present at teaching hospitals like Grady. Every night, every day, and in every frigging ER having covered them for 6 years of residency and another 8 after that.
You see it the most in people who are poor, without resources and without insurance. Hence we have 5 bills going after 8 years of the schmuck who wanted people just to go to the ER whose daddy gave him all his money.
And I don’t know what planet you’re on, but a lot of hospitals won’t bill and a dollar a week is pure bs. Try going to a bunch of them and saying you have no money–see what happens when you aren’t emergent.
I’ve been on call in this city and had parents taking a kid with a very compelling case for an acute appendix to a number of hospitals who turned the kid away. A couple of the hospitals were in Cobb county, one in Dekalb, and two in Fulton. It happens all the time. I got him operated by calling a doctor I knew,–the kid had McBurney’s point migration and the CBC was off the wall with a heavy left shift; and I’ve gotten people operated by calling a doctor whose attitude was to fix the patient and worry later.
It was the system’s fault because a kid didn’t know she was very sick until it was too late and the time she put off treatment because she couldn’t afford it and hospitals and clinics won’t bill strangers (that’s the default position).
I’m sure she would tell you and her friends would that she wasn’t that sick symptomatic wise until bang she got sick fast.
You and the insipidly ignorant nudnick Mike make me remember why there are admissions standards in medical schools that you couldn’t meet.
Taxpayer
September 27th, 2009
10:36 pm
OK, you are talking about the chronically homeless. This is different case and has much more to do with housing the indigent than it does health care.
I think we can all agree that these folks are among the most helpless and deserve special attention. Healthcare reform should provide health care to the mentally disabled who have no connection to society.
What a load of incoherent crap. Then again, it is mike pounding the keyboard. Now he has somehow managed to link healthcare needs to indigent homeless people who are all mentally disabled. mike is the only mentally disabled person here. He even claims to have been an executive at a ‘Fortume 500 Company’ that attended Rutgers. LIAR.
Jackie
September 27th, 2009
10:37 pm
@thomas
What?
thomas
September 27th, 2009
10:37 pm
Jackie,
No I was showing how since the hospital knew they were homeless they most likely weren’t expecting too much payment.
Since you denied trying to influence my feeling toward public option or HC reform, may I ask why you felt I needed a larger picture of this in our country?
Once again in this example how was her care rationed by anyone other than her and her own ignorance, and misuderstanding?