A cage match between birthers and truthers

MR. PRESIDENT, BRING OUR TROOPS HOME!
——————-
LET’S RRRUUUMMMBBBLLLEEE!!!

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At least that’s what I keep telling myself, because otherwise I’d have to believe there are a lot of crazy people in this country.

I CERTAINLY BELIEVE IT.

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I don’t think the word “allow” is exactly correct. So I’d have to say no, he didn’t “allow” 9/11 to happen.

A better word might be fumble.

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I guess there are idiots on BOTH SIDES after all…contrary to Jay, Godzilla, Normal, Doggon, and UsinUk’s belief.

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“contrary to Jay, Godzilla, Normal, Doggon, and UsinUk’s belief.”

There you go with that amazingly BAD mind reading again. You need a refresher course.

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“There you go with that amazingly BAD mind reading again. You need a refresher course.”

From your repeated comments on this board, IMO(it is obvious), y’all believe the Left can do no wrong..the Right can do no right. This pole proves otherwise. It goes both ways people whether you believe it or not.

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Normal

September 24th, 2009
7:45 am

Thanks for the notice downstairs.

Turd Ferguson

September 24th, 2009
7:59 am

Now you know you can’t get enough of Jay.

You need to take this one down, Jay. Cynthia beat you to it.

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Don’t you have to be crazy to be a Democrat or a Republican? (But Cynthia called them loony.)

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“and a gracious good morning to you too!

What a delightful fellow you are!

Good morning to you too ma’am. I’m usually grumpy on Monday but my mood gets better throughout the week

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Peadawg

so we’ve noticed.

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Who is Lou Dobbs and why would he call himself a flea-bitten dirty mangy dog. That is the sort of stupid talk that I would expect from, oh well, a birther.

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yowsa

September 24th, 2009
8:17 am

Definitely tracking in the wrong direction, but I’d guess it’ll start going the other way when he is authenticated with good results. I’d like to see a little less Bush and a little more Clinton in style.

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Mrs. Godzilla

September 24th, 2009
8:09 am

Aren’t you a small business owner?

How is your mother-in-law doing?

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Peadawg –

“I guess there are idiots on BOTH SIDES after all…contrary to Jay, Godzilla, Normal, Doggon, and UsinUk’s belief.”

actually, I never would have argued that with you (having worked in politics for 6 years and lived in DC for 8 – I’ve seen ‘em up CLOSE!)

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If we’re crazy (”because otherwise I’d have to believe there are a lot of crazy people in this country”), then just answer the questions

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZyKR2-A0KPU

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Mrs. G –

8:13 – I saw that story this morning and was absolutely horrified. (of course, the idea that the investigators are ruling out “self-inflicted” seems a bit of a waste of time, but I guess they gotta do what they gotta do) …

but you can’t tell me that wing-nuts (not ALL republicans, just the crispy bits on the edge) haven’t fed into this fear and loathing of all things gummint …

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[[At least that’s what I keep telling myself, because otherwise I’d have to believe there are a lot of crazy people in this country.]]

I keep hoping the number (20-25%) of people who will believe has remained constant. I hope these two – one funneling into fascination with conspiracy theories, the other, a justification as to why ‘he isn’t really our president’ (same idea as liberal’s disputing the rule of law with the Court’s 2000 Bush v Gore decision to say ‘he really isn’t our president) – are elevated because of the partisan view of things.

At least, that’s what I keep hoping -

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Mrs G –

“SCrew the cage match……make it pudding wrestling”

how about a friendly game of kickball??

as for the question “did the president allow 9/11 to happen” – I wish they had made it a little more b/w to weed the truly nutty out … I would say “yes” simply because he ignored the PDB and hadn’t convened a single meeting about terrorism between taking office and 9/11. Call it “allowing” through benign neglect, not anything nefarious. I don’t think there was a conspiracy, I just think that ignorance allowed it to happen.

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RW –

“Tell that one to Neda and the rest of the Iranian people that yearned to be free and equal, Barry. Words…just words.”

there’s a difference between standing up for them and inserting ourselves into a political process of a sovereign nation. sorry, but I think that staying out of Iran’s affairs and letting democracy bubble up from the bottom (which is happening) is the right thing to do.

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USinUK,

Apparently BO holds your same belief that we should stay out of other people’s political affairs and even if I don’t hold that view I can understand it, but if one holds that view they shouldn’t be giving speeches saying they’ll stand and support anyone that yearns to be free since all they’re really prepared to do is watch them get slaughtered in the street.

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Jay, you read the comments and respond from time to time (unlike a certain counterpart of yours).

You know that there are sufficient fanatics on both sides that will never let reality intrude on their beliefs. The problem is when the entirety of one side gets painted as the same as the crazies.

These statistics are why those of us who are sane and have jobs and busy lives need to respond to polls. Otherwise the nutjobs views get into the political focus groups.

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USinUK –

“as for the question “did the president allow 9/11 to happen” – I wish they had made it a little more b/w to weed the truly nutty out ”

Are you kidding? Can you not read?

Here is question:

““Do you think President Bush intentionally allowed the 9/11 attacks to take place because
he wanted the United States to go to war in the Middle East?”

There is nothing ambiguous about that question at all. On the other hand, the Obama question is very ambiguous.

If the Obama question had been phrased the same way it would read something like:

““Do you think Barack Obama was born outside the United State, making his Presidency invalid?”

But of course, Jay is sourcing a hyper-partisan polling outfit who clearly designed the questions to minimize the number of truthers and maximize he number of birthers. They are just as intellectually dishonest as Jay.

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G’morning, USinUK

I realize much of this is one’s own interpretation of what might have been, as well as how much power one thinks a single person has to move the vast bureaucracy from historic practices -

but, just the other day a judge chastised the Obama Administration for not following the President’s executive order to simple review the Gitmo cases, oldest first, and make prosecution recommendations…. gov’t said it needed more time….

and, the Executive recognized the problem continuing incarceration at Gitmo poses and ordered the facility closed…. yet months later, after lots of meetings and policy papers and discussions, no progress…

yet we cling to the belief that the tragedy of 9-11 might have been averted, that the enmity and mistrust and noncooperation that existed between Federal agencies; that the public would be willing to endure odious measures in the face of a nonspecific threat; that years of procedures and policies and all the myriad problems outlined in the 9-11 Commission report….

would have been overcome if we’d had a few meetings and said yet again, ‘the guy doesn’t like us, and as we’ve heard for ten years, wants to attack us.”

But we can’t even review old court cases or decide what to do with prisoners. After lots of meetings.

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GayGrayGeek –

Your hypocrisy is laughable. You are describing the behavior of mindless partisans of both stripes, of which you are one. Maybe if you weren’t so wrapped up by your hypocrisy you could note that the tactics of extremists on the right and the left are pretty much the same. Like you or Redneck Convert for example. You are intolerant of other views so you cast ignorant stereotypes on those who subscribe to them. Rush’s ditthoeads do the same. You are all alike.

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kayaker –

“At least we had someone to laugh about from time to time.”

see: Michelle Bachmann

RW –

“if one holds that view they shouldn’t be giving speeches saying they’ll stand and support anyone that yearns to be free since all they’re really prepared to do is watch them get slaughtered in the street”

mmm … I understand where you’re coming from, but what are the options? (that’s not a sarcastic inquiry, I’d really be interested to know how you think the iranian elections should have been handled … particularly given our frought history with the country)

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” Call it “allowing” through benign neglect, not anything nefarious. I don’t think there was a conspiracy, I just think that ignorance allowed it to happen.”

Just curious, but since many of the hijackers came into the country while Clinton was still in office, does the “ignorance” apply to both Bush and Clinton?

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the enmity and mistrust and noncooperation that existed between Federal agencies

Paul,

Let’s not leave out the legal barrier that barred cooperation between the FBI and CIA.

USinUK,

I really hate to go back down this worn out path, but have you ever really read the 8/6/01 PDB? If you have please tell us what specific action you would have taken based on that report.

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Paul –

“yet we cling to the belief that the tragedy of 9-11 might have been averted, that the enmity and mistrust and noncooperation that existed between Federal agencies; that the public would be willing to endure odious measures in the face of a nonspecific threat; that years of procedures and policies …”

here’s the thing: had the Cole not happened only months before Bush took office and had there NOT been a significant change in priorities at the DoJ, I’d be right there with you. But the Cole DID happen – and Ashcroft DID move terrorism down the list of priorities (behind infringements of 2nd amendment rights) … could it have been averted? I honestly don’t know. What I DO think is that it was irresponsible to not keep terrorism at the top of the charts after our military was just attacked.

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Jay, I didn’t say it, but it says it best:

“Let’s Face It, In A Country Of 300 Million…There Are A Lot Of Stupid People”

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DoggoneGA 8:53

I will offer that while that is technically correct, the point was lost on the vast number of respondents who heard the question.

It’s the same as poll results asking if white America should apologize for slavery. Technically, an apology doesn’t have to mean responsibility, it can be simply an expression of sympathy or regret. But I’d also guess that distinction would be lost on the vast majority of respondents.

So I’d have to say for many respondents there’s a huge element of knowing beforehand implied.

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If some dumba$$ pollster were to ask me such stupid questions, I would either give them the stupid answer that their employer may even be hoping for or else tell them to place their stupid poll where it belongs, no matter how much their employer balks at the idea. Then again, most of these people are just trying to make a living. Doing whatever job is available in an effort to put food on the family.

But, the bottom line is that Bush thought that he had an experienced, educated, talented and trustworthy group of people in the likes of Dick, Donald, and others that he could just turn these presidential matters over to and focus his efforts on things like reading children’s books. He was wrong. Nothing new there. That’s what the polls need to reflect regarding the ‘truther’ issue. For, with the ‘truthers’, they have a real basis for their feelings — loss of real lives and property. They have 9/11 to look back on and they have the failure of the Bush administration to back up any of its stated claims for going to war such as terrorists in Iraq or WMDs, etc. The truth is that oil companies were actually kicked out of Iraq and the truth is that oil companies wanted back in and given the Bush administration’s ties with oil and the Bush administration’s dependence on lies as justification for invading Iraq, the ‘truthers’ have likely made what appears, to themselves, to be a very logical connection of the dots.

The same cannot be said for the facts regarding Obama’s birth and the ‘birther’ movement. They have nothing factual at all to support any claim whatsoever and that is what the Supremes have told those that took all their evidence before them. I mean, good Gog, what is wrong with these fruitcakes. The least they should do is produce something real to base their nutty claims on.

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USinUK,

Nice specifics. /sarc

The last paragraph said there were currently 70 full field FBI investigations in the US that were considered Bin Laden related. That hardly sounds like nothing was being done.

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Doggone –

“But the question on the survey said nothing about Bush being “behind” 911. Look up the mulitple definitions of “allow” – especially, as I posted above, this one: “to permit by neglect, oversight, or the like:”

I am starting to think that nobody actually read the article before moving onto Pavlovian jabbering.

The question states:

““Do you think President Bush intentionally allowed the 9/11 attacks to take place because he wanted the United States to go to war in the Middle East?”

What is unclear about that? The above question is very clear: he allowed it to happen because he wanted war. That has nothing to do with “neglect” or “oversight”.

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md –

“Just curious, but since many of the hijackers came into the country while Clinton was still in office, does the “ignorance” apply to both Bush and Clinton?”

of course it does. the attacks on the Towers, the African embassies and the Cole were during the Clinton administration – I don’t diminish his responsibility at all. HOWEVER – at least his DoJ made terrorism their #1 priority and at least he had regular briefings with Richard Clarke and the NSC. in other words, at least Clinton made it a priority, whereas, coming into office after all that, Bush did not.

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” had the Cole not happened only months before Bush took office and had there NOT been a significant change in priorities at the DoJ, I’d be right there with you.”

The first WTC attack occurred in 1993 on Clinton’s watch. Would it be fair to blame him after a short time in office – no. But, the hijackers entered the US while he was still in office. What happened with that? Did he let his guard down or does it only apply to Bush.

Partisanship answers that question differently, but they are very comparable.

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USinUK –

What actions should have been taken based on the vague PDB memo. Then tell me that folks like Jay and Keith Olbermann would have been fine with those actions.

Near as I can tell, there were really only two things that could have been done: arrest suspects who have yet to commit a crime based on weak evidence and implement post 9/12 style airport security.

Large parts of our citizenry still doubt whether the above two remedies are legitimate after 9/11. You gonna tell me that these folks would have been cool with that before 9/11? Please. Olbermann and Bookman would have been declaring an end to civil liberties and you know it.

The same is true for Clinton and the coice not to take out Bin Laden when he had the chance. America did not have a taste for assassinations then. We do now. I don’t fault Clinton for not acting then, as there was no political will to take those steps. I would say the same is true of Bush as well.

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RW –

“Nice specifics. /sarc”

coming from someone who, when asked what he would do about the Iranian situation, said “I don’t really care about how the Irani elections were conducted, but when they were over a large number of oppressed people took to the streets yearning to be free and our President who now says he’ll stand with any people like that said it was none of our business. It’s the difference between words and actions and all BO has is words”, you’ll pardon me if I guffaw in your general direction.

“The last paragraph said there were currently 70 full field FBI investigations in the US that were considered Bin Laden related. That hardly sounds like nothing was being done.”

and the president gave no direction on what to do with any of them.

“you covered your butt”

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Paul -

“The NSC was not going to conduct domestic surveillance of – what did RW say, 70 cases? – to analyze chatter. There’d have had to have been a lot more probable cause than “we’ve thought for a while OBL wanted to attack us, we’ve speculated on methods, one of them is airliners and we’ve got these Saudi guys in flight school…””

do you not remember that there were already alarms raised about these flight schools – since none of the guys cared to learn about how to land. the alarms were raised. the scenarios of how they would attack were already analyzed as a real possibility (low tech like the Cole attack).

the ball was well and truly dropped.

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“The truth is that oil companies were actually kicked out of Iraq and the truth is that oil companies wanted back in and given the Bush administration’s ties with oil and the Bush administration’s dependence on lies as justification for invading Iraq, the ‘truthers’ have likely made what appears, to themselves, to be a very logical connection of the dots. ”

If that is the truth, then lets continue to follow the dots:

We invaded for oil
Current contracts for oil are with many countries, many of which did not support the war
We have 100k+ soldiers still in the country

Sorry, but the dots tell me that if I have 100k+ troops in the country and it was all about the oil, those other countries sure as hell aren’t getting any of my oil.

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USinUK,

The difference would be that I never said a thing about the Iranian elections and you specifically said Bush could have changed the course of history by paying more attention to that PDB.

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OH NO!!! I have to head to the forest and it’s mighty cloudy out there. DoggoneGA, would you please predict a day of rain? Thanks in advance.

Later y’all.

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The Bush question leaves no doubt as to the evil motive. As a result the question will only catch those that are “truthers”.

The Obama question is much more open and doesn’t address whether the respondent knows or cares about the naturalized birth requirement for Presidents. As are result, the question will catch many people who are not “birthers”.

Like the Daily Kos polls that Jay relies on so heavily, this poll was conducted by a partisan organization with the intent of skewing the numbers. That is why it has been sourced by both Jay and Cynthia Tucker in the past 24 hours.

This kind of distortion of the truth is conducted by both sides and is so destructive to our democracy. When it gets to the point that people either have to passively absorb partisan spin or spend time unspinning the information they are provided, it is really tough to gain understanding and compromise. This is why pundits like Rush and Jay are cancer to our society.

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RW –

you were the one who brought up Iran when you said “Tell that one to Neda and the rest of the Iranian people that yearned to be free and equal, Barry. Words…just words.” …

all I asked is “I understand where you’re coming from, but what are the options?”

to which I received your non-answer. so. please. no sarcasm about my response which, when compared with yours, was an Encyclopedia Britannica of a reply.

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If that is the truth, then lets continue to follow the dots:

Sorry, but the dots tell me that if I have 100k+ troops in the country and it was all about the oil, those other countries sure as hell aren’t getting any of my oil.

Just like a birther or a truther or any other person, you are certainly entitled to your own game of dots.

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Polls can be skewed to give the answer someone wants to hear, if they are written and delivered a certain way.
What I find interesting, is that there is no birth certificate. Therefore, there is no absolute proof of the prez being US born. I don’t think that he wasn’t, but regardless, we don’t know for sure.

Regarding the truthers, there is no proof that their claim is true. Birthers are making statements that can’t be proven false, while truthers are making statements that can’t be proven true. There is a difference.

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Mrs. Godzilla

Chuck Norris asking protestors to not use the current American flag in such situations makes him a nutter?!!? Jay did a thread questioning why some on the right use the flag for all sorts of purposes, Norris asks people to cool it and you think that’s nutty?

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Normal –

I disagree with your analysis. I think that it is cancerous to our society when a large segment of the population thinks that there government is willing to kill them.

It is also a pretty awful reflection of ourselves as a culture where intolerance to other’s politics makes it easy to believe that their leaders are murderers, particularly when there is no evidence of that and the logistics of pulling it off and keeping it quiet would be impossible.

This demonization of folks who hold contrary political views is facilitated by the relentless propaganda put out by war profiteers like Jay and Michael Savage.

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Mike, I’ll have to google Savage, but how is Jay a war profiteer? Does he own stock in General Dynamics? You are going to have to explain that one…

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Paul….

I just think it’s dangerous for him to stain the stars and stripes as not all folks are as liberal as I when it comes to that kind of thing.

Or have I missed something and the right has changed their mind on desecration?

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“do you have any idea how many people enter this country on a daily basis? given that none of the hijackers had any history that would trip an alarm, they all entered legally on tourist visas (except one who entered on a student visa), what should have been done? wiretap everyone who is here as a tourist?”

If ‘93 had been treated as a worst case scenario such as if the bombing was successful and brought the tower down, then yes, we should have been doing then what we are doing now. Why does it always take the loss of life for our gov’t to do anything.

Reminds me of local gov’t installing traffic lights – they only act after a number of people have been killed at an intersection, and some will even tell you that.

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md –

“A so called “chickenhawk” administration takes office after the bombing of a US warship, and we are led to believe that there was nothing going on behind the scenes.”

please see the 9/11 commission report. Ashcroft moved terrorism way down the list of DoJ priorities. The Bush administration didn’t both to meet with the head of the NSC’s anti-terrorism branch. if there were things going on behind the scenes, it would have started with those two areas.

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Near as I can tell, there were really only two things that could have been done: arrest suspects who have yet to commit a crime based on weak evidence and implement post 9/12 style airport security.

Let’s see, now. A flight instructor in the Midwest reports to the federal government that he has a Middle Eastern student who wants to learn how to fly a big commercial jet, but doesn’t want to learn how take off in it or land it. I suppose arresting the guy would have been out of the question at that point, but I don’t think it’s asking too much to have the FBI at least question him.

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“please see the 9/11 commission report. Ashcroft moved terrorism way down the list of DoJ priorities. The Bush administration didn’t both to meet with the head of the NSC’s anti-terrorism branch. if there were things going on behind the scenes, it would have started with those two areas.”

Sorry, but i tend to believe the spooks (CIA) are always in the game, even when there isn’t supposed to be a game. And that is with all presidents.

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The Great Carnak says it will rain today somewhere on the planet. He guarentees it…

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Doggone/GA

“I definitely predict that it will rain today.”

Somewhere.

Now there’s no uncertainty and you are, once again, 100 percent correct.

(ummmm…. do you have a vision of Saturday’s winning Lotto numbers?)

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“(ummmm…. do you have a vision of Saturday’s winning Lotto numbers?)”

I predict that some of them will be even … and some will be odd.

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USinUK

Odd, how even that is oddly even.

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y’all know that Atta took a little flight training at the Gwinnett County Airport…..

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“Now I completely support his right to desecrate the flag as part of a peaceful protest, but he better watch out. We know that kind of a sensitive issue with some on the right.

Isn’t it?”

Don’t forget: IOKIYAR

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Can’t we all just get along?

How about a compromise like this:

* Bush allowed tower #1 to be hit. Tower #2 was a total shock.

* Obama was CONCEIVED in Hawaii, but was actually born in Africa

Nothing like the middle ground to smooth things out, right?

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“What I find interesting, is that there is no birth certificate.”

And what planet have YOU been living on for the last year or so? The birth certificate was posted on Obama’s webpage, verified as official by the state of Hawaii, and investigated and verified by Fact Check.

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Marc

[[Jay why won’t Obama let us see the original. This would go away if he did that]]

Why would he want it to go away? Democrats can (and do) paint it as an issue for nuts and they attempt, by association, to get people to think it’s a Republican thing. Even though a whole bunch of Democrats are just as nutty. But people who listen to Democratic strategists come away thinking it’s a Republican thing.

So it’s a win for Democrats to keep playing it as long as they can.

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Doggone….don’t know that…..please teach me new thing

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Gee, I just love polls. After all, they soooooo accurately reveal the truth, right?

For those of you consumed with poll results, try this one: a recent poll revealed that 3/4 of the respondents comprised 75% of those answering the poll. Fascinating, I tell you, just fascinating.

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“Country of origin would definetly put them on the “watch” list.”

Being from Saudi Arabia AUTOMATICALLY makes you a suspect? Since when?

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FREE DONALD SIEGELMAN:

http://topics.nytimes.com/topics/reference/timestopics/people/s/donald_siegelman/index.html

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The cross-tabs are actually quite informative, for me, that is (I like numbers though.). For example, from the Bush 9/11 question, of those saying “Yes”, only 27% voted for Obama. But, for the Obama born in US question, 43% of those saying “No” voted for McCain.

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The Congressional Research Service tells us that the total cost of the Iraq war under President Bush was $622 billion. Do you have any clue how much Obama is going to spend on welfare, treating America’s parasite infestation, in just 2010 alone? Care to guess? Well … let’s try $888 billion. Yup, you got it. That’s about $260 billion more than the cost of the Iraq war under Bush. And what will we get for that money? An entrenched welfare class, that’s what. Our parasite problem will become even worse. Frankly, we got a lot more bang for the buck out of the war in Iraq.

The Democrats rejected an amendment to the healthcare bill that would have required the House to post the final text of major bills online at least 72 hours before voting on them.

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Mrs. Godzilla

IOKIYAR = It’s ok if you’re a republican.

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Thanks Kamchak

I’m still hoping GFY means good for you. I don’t like all that
hate-a-rama, hatee hateful stuff.

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“I’m still hoping GFY means good for you”

you mean it doesn’t?

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“Frankly, we got a lot more bang for the buck out of the war in Iraq.”

Oh yeah! We ONLY got 4000+ dead solidiers for the money.

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4000 plus American bangs

and a large argument over the number of Iraqi bangs….

oh and just a reminder the costs of the Iraq war will last for decades,
we have thousands of fine young American men and women who will need our care for the rest pf their lives.

bang bang…

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doggone –

“Oh yeah! We ONLY got 4000+ dead solidiers for the money.”

let’s not forget:

Lost & Unaccounted for in Iraq – $9 billion of US taxpayers’ money and $549.7 milion in spare parts shipped in 2004 to US contractors. Also, per ABC News, 190,000 guns, including 110,000 AK-47 rifles.

Missing – $1 billion in tractor trailers, tank recovery vehicles, machine guns, rocket-propelled grenades and other equipment and services provided to the Iraqi security forces

Mismanaged & Wasted in Iraq – $10 billion, per Feb 2007 Congressional hearings

Halliburton Overcharges Classified by the Pentagon as Unreasonable and Unsupported – $1.4 billion

Amount paid to KBR, a former Halliburton division, to supply U.S. military in Iraq with food, fuel, housing and other items – $20 billion

Portion of the $20 billion paid to KBR that Pentagon auditors deem “questionable or supportable” – $3.2 billion

US Troops Wounded – 31,483, 20% of which are serious brain or spinal injuries (total excludes psychological injuries)

US Troops with Serious Mental Health Problems – 30% of US troops develop serious mental health problems within 3 to 4 months of returning home

US Military Helicopters Downed in Iraq – 71 total, at least 36 by enemy fire

http://usliberals.about.com/od/homelandsecurit1/a/IraqNumbers.htm

(data taken from the brookings institute)

yeah, babbee … we REEELLY got our bang for the buck there! huzzah!

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Jay – You really don’t understand. Your blind allegiance to your political party has caused you to miss the big picture. Here is something I read online. You and your hacks on this blog should read this.

Across the nation, there is a sense that average Americans are being hurt by powerful forces that prosper at their expense, in an economy that is unfair, with institutional, financial and political power aligned against them.

This feeling is shared by Tea Party demonstrators, jobless workers and small-business owners who find that banks won’t lend them money while their credit card interest rates rise to punishing levels, workers who lose their health insurance and young people who will be forced to pay back mountains of debt piled high by the gluttony of their elders.

The great fault line in American politics today is not Democratic versus Republican, left versus right or black versus white. It is between the core political and financial power centers and the great silent majority of Americans who want to work hard, play fair, build a better life for their families and be treated fairly by government and business alike.
There is racism in America. There are political leaders who fail to speak out against the politics of hate.

And yet: America has elected our first black president, who is still the most popular figure in national politics. Our first lady has popularity ratings over 70 percent, the envy of elected officials.
What is amazing and unreported by a media that treats our politics like a freak show is the low level of bigotry among young people who are the future of the nation.

As Christmas approaches, there will be stories of humongous Wall Street bonuses alongside stories of unemployment rising above 10 percent and foreclosures remaining at record levels. There will be stories of speculation on Wall Street alongside stories of credit card rates still rising as banks rush to beat the effective date of the new credit card law.

It is not “Merry Christmas” for workers worried about losing their jobs or benefits. It is not “Happy New Year” for those receiving pink slips while others receive giant bonuses.

This is not about race. It is about the reaction when Americans perceive that the few enjoy the prosperity while the many endure the pain.

Americans ask: Where did all this bailout money go? How do we repay these deficits? What did I do to deserve this?

Americans increasingly feel powerless as lobbyists dominate Washington and the cost of the bailouts reaches somewhere between $5 trillion and $23 trillion. Nobody tells Main Street exactly how the money was spent or how it helps the people who paid for it. People believe, often correctly, that they are being screwed.

The most powerful institution in America is the Federal Reserve Board. It bears major responsibility for creating the crisis, deserves credit for action that prevented a second Depression and shares responsibility with the president and Congress for not enacting reforms of abuses that caused the collapse.

Yet the Fed acts largely in secret, without even the audit required of government and public companies, as Rep. Ron Paul (R-Texas) notes.

Americans watch CEOs make millions of dollars while they outsource jobs to low-wage nations.

So-called green shoots lead to rising stock prices not so much because companies expand business, but because they cut costs, increase layoffs and reduce benefits.
Americans sense something is wrong when the cost of blood and treasure rises in Afghanistan while our corrupt government ally in Kabul steals money and votes.

There is deep concern about the uncertain dangers of enormous deficits, debt, spending and ballooning monetary policy involving government, business and speculators, while the benefits are not apparent to our people.

There is concern about America’s status as world leader when our debt is increasingly owned by foreign nations, our jobs are exported along with our products and our fate is becoming determined by forces beyond our control.

All of these concerns are legitimate. None of them involves racism. The 2010 election will be decided by who gives voice to these legitimate concerns and offers solutions that voters believe will make their lives better.

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Libertarian –

“Across the nation, there is a sense that average Americans are being hurt by powerful forces that prosper at their expense, in an economy that is unfair, with institutional, financial and political power aligned against them.”

that was a good write-up … thank you for sharing …

however, you do realize that, if you truly ARE a Libertarian, you are all for the market regulating itself, don’t you. in other words, if you like “powerful forces that prosper at your expense” – then you’re going to get more of the same following the Libertarian philosophy …

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Here’s the link Jay in response to your 10:46

http://www.cnsnews.com/public/content/article.aspx?RsrcID=54400

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Mrs. G -

in all fairness, Libertarian did say “Here is something I read online.” …

(although, did I tell you my Real Clear Politics story about how they said back in 2007 that there was no WAY that we were heading into a recession???)

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Good job, Zedd. I wonder if Jay will retract?

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Dudley – take a chill pill, bill … Jay asked a question, he didn’t accuse Zed of anything … there’s nothing there to “retract”

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USinUK

If you’re so interested in addressing waste, why not look at what bang we’ve received for the trillions of bucks spent on social programs since LBJ’s great society? Has it ended poverty or just created a class of indentured (or dependent) servants? How has the country prospered? What has been the results?

I would think that even you would have to admit the waste and “no bang for the buck” of the war is just a grain of sand on a beach as compared to the waste and “no bang for the buck” expenditures of the great society.

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Has the number of crazies gone up? It seems to me that reporting on the crazies is driving the success of the infotainment industry. I remember a time when the news was boring—now it has to be drama-ed up like a reality show–or talk-radio.

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Libertarian I apologize……

I should have read closer. I admit I see those things posted here often
and do a lot of source checking. I’m pretty good about posting my source.

You did not deserve my nasty, nasty, hate-eriffic post.

I sit head down in sorrow for casting aspersions…..

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USinUK

Actually, Jay said the nubmers seemed “wildly exaggerated”. Just wondering if he still feels the same now that Zedd provided the link?

By the way, how lame with the “chill pill” comment. Good grief, do you have “BFFs” and do you text things like “OMG” with your “BFFs”?

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Hef,

I’ll elaborate more from the cross tabs:

The cross-tabs are actually quite informative, for me, that is (I like numbers though.). For example, from the Bush 9/11 question, of the 14% saying “Yes”, only 27% voted for Obama. But, for the Obama born in US question, 43% of the 23% saying “No”, voted for McCain.

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Dudley –

“Jay said the nubmers seemed “wildly exaggerated”. Just wondering if he still feels the same now that Zedd provided the link?”

and, again – that’s not an accusation (unless you have skin the depth and density of rice paper)

“By the way, how lame with the “chill pill” comment. Good grief, do you have “BFFs” and do you text things like “OMG” with your “BFFs”?”

awww … diddums … do you not like being called out for acting like a little attack poodle???

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Information about CNSNews:

“The CNSNews.com (or Cybercast News Service) is an American news website owned by the Media Research Center. It was founded on June 16, 1998 under the name “Conservative News Service”[1] ; “Conservative” was changed to “Cybercast” in 2000 after the MRC was unable to trademark the name “Conservative News Service.”[citation needed]”

Wonder if those numbers quoted in a previous blog posting can be verified by another source?

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USinUK, get it through your thick skull, I don’t answer to you! Didn’t I ask you to stay on the other side of the pond anyway?

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Jackie

Do you mean can those number be verified by another “reputable” news source such as CNN or MSNBC?? HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!! Good one.

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It is known as an oligarchy, and in large part due to the fascists on Wall St. and K Street and their lap dogs in DC, it is what we now have in the United States of America.

There is too much power and too much wealth in too few hands and the few control our government and the few create the problems and the injustices for the many and have less and less interest in doing anything about it because they can get away with it. ~Ralph Nader

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Gotta love these cage matches, no holds barred, no DQ’s! Gee USinUK that really stings! Anyone got any bactine?

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In my opinion the biggest failed US policy/law/act whatever,has been the war on welfare. I don’t know the exact dollars spent,but the positive results have been minute at best.

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“Gee USinUK that really stings! Anyone got any bactine?”

given that it involved a 4-syllable word, I’m surprised you grasped the meaning …

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Probably one of the most reasonably balanced commentaries that Jay has written. While I don’t believe Obama was really born outside of the US because that would be next to impossible for an effective cover up, he could have ended the rumor by simply providing his original birth certificate. For whatever reason he refuses to do so. Because of his refusal, I can see how the uptick in Republican responses occurred. The so called ‘truther” rumor,however, was really so far out in left field that no one with half a brain could honestly believe it to be true.

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Oh hell, media matters talked about the attack on the stimulus pkg by the right wing…..I suspect that’s what the 888 billion in welfare comes from……

http://clips.mediamatters.org/research/200902100020

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Del,

I’d be hard pressed to produce my original birth certificate as would many others. The fact is the state of Hawaii verified it (which I think they shouldn’t have even bothered with) and no matter what they say there are gonna be those who won’t believe them cause they don’t want to believe them because they prefer to just keep on hating Obama.

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Kamchak, I wouldn’t have it any other way

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So which one is easier to believe, duh?

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“Kamchak, I wouldn’t have it any other way as long as I don’t have to answer for or defend what I post”

there. fyt.

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oh … and … HI BOSCH!! (waving)

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Some boring old economy stuff. You probably wouldn’t be interested in reading it.

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dB

maybe its 666 with a 222 added to confuse the issue……

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Bosch-I don’t have problem with assistance,heck who knows I may need it.But for as much that has been sunk into welfare you’d think we would’ve seen much better results.

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Public Option,

Thanks, but I inhaled – I guess there goes my chances.

USinUK,

Waving back!!!

Dudley,

Yes, that proves everything or it could be the for the umpteenth time, it’s the software that doesn’t like your post for some reason, so if you’re gonna blame somebody or something, blame the software producers.

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Hef,

Again, better results are in the eye of the beholder. I think it’s better to not have homeless people wondering the streets begging for food and more cardboard box communities (although most “projects” aren’t that much better). I don’t think anyone strives to live on welfare, and I think it’s more important to look at reasons why so many wind up there.

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“Bosch–I can show you a website where you can order your birth certificate for $15 bucks”

Except, of course, you WON’T get your “original” birth certificate. What you will get is an official copy…which may, or may not, be an exact copy of the original…it depends on the state. Which is what Obama posted on his website, which was verified by the state of Hawaii, and which was examined and verified by Fact Check. The OFFICIAL COPY of his birth certificate.

NO STATE will send you the original, because that is the official, recorded and retained state record of your birth. And in many states it actually no longer exists because they put a scan of it in electronic records and the DESTROY THE ORIGINAL.

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Bosch –

(pssst … tell him how pouring beer on your keyboard really does appease the bot!!!)

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Normal –

“Mike, I’ll have to google Savage, but how is Jay a war profiteer? Does he own stock in General Dynamics? You are going to have to explain that one…”

Sure. This is a metaphor. Just as in war there are a small few who profit from the destruction that they facilitate, so are partisan pundits among the small few who profit from the destruction that they facilitate.

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Gotta run taters! Off to the big city!!!

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Jay –

Do you think that all of the people who responded to the survey who said that they that Obama was/could have been born out of country “birthers”?

You think that a pretty good portion of them might be just people who just didn’t know and didn’t care?

Don’t you think that the poor wording of the question inflates the number of “birthers”?

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and most importantly, make live human sacrifices to the bot…

I’ve found that a prayer to St. Vidicon of the Cathode works just as well and there’s no problem with the local authorities about missing persons, crime scenes, blood soaked evidence,…

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“You think that a pretty good portion of them might be just people who just didn’t know and didn’t care?”

They cared enough to answer, didn’t they?

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jay, there ARE a lot of crazy people in this country…we call them liberals.

And somewhere in kenya, a village is STILL missing it’s idiot..

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Kam –

while he’s no Flying Spaghetti Monster, St. Vidicon is pretty great!

(I’m soooo forwarding to the mister)

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Doggone –

All shouting in caps aside, claiming that our government is killing our troops in way that is comparable to the murder of the victims of 9/11 is absurd.

“Here’s a reality statement for you: an ALL VOLUNTEER armed force makes it incumbent upon their officers and leaders to BE SURE their lives and sacrifice aren’t wasted.”

Does that apply to Obama in Afghanistan now? If we pull out in defeat, will you call him a killer too?

“Do you really think we needed a WAR to end the sanctions against Iraq?”

Please tell me what they are and tell me why Clinton didn’t use them.

The truth is that none of Bush’s critics knew or cared about the Iraqi kids who were bing killed by the sanctions. They just want to use Iraqi deaths as a cudgel to make partisan points.

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I’m a little late a’lurkin and a’scannin crazy stuff today, but I’m with that Converted Redneck, or whatever he calls himself, Bush did not permit 9-11. NO! He did not! He was so stunned out of his wits, he could hardly pronounce those one syllable words in My Pet Goat…..I mean just ’cause those terrorists were our biggest threat, and the thoughts of how to handle, which way to go, was enough to make a feller’s head hurt, don’t mean he let it happen for Goshsakes. He was terrified.

Obama not a citizen? I’m sure if he could think hard enough, he could remember exactly where his Mom was when he was born. I mean “Good Golly Miss Molly” what’s a memory for if not to remember?

The birthers, deathers, and Bush knew about 9/11 crowd probably all were left by the stork. Or “When the Lord said brains”………..

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This is the most disgusting video I’ve seen in a long time. It makes my skin crawl.

This is exactly what happened during the Hitler Youth era. It is happening today in America. Anybody who tries this sort of garbage with my family will meet Mr. Lights Out!

This ought to scare all of you…. Imagine if the name were changed to George Walker Bush. How many of you liberals would be howling at the school and the principal.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5zrsl8o4ZPo

SCARY, SCARY, SCARY !!!!!!!!!!!!

I especially love the part where they talk about all of his accomplishments…… LMAO. What accomplishments? He got elected…. That’s it.

Obama hasn’t gotten anything done yet… It’s only been 9 months.

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Doggone –

“They cared enough to answer, didn’t they?”

This makes no sense. So just the fact that they answered the poll meant that they had a strong and informed position on the matter? Give me a break.

You don’t seem to know how polling works. They don’t call, ask you the question and then see if you want to participate.

Man, your logic is just sad.

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MIKE: the 58000 was Viet Nam… You think they all volenteered?
——————

We are not killing them. They are volunteer soldiers who are dying in combat. Please don’t’ let your rhetorical flourishes get in the way of reality.

They wouldn’t have been there to die if your government hadn’t sent them. Give it a break.
—————-
That statement is so ridiculous it is beyond the pale, and just serves to remind me that you do not debate you just scream “Je accuse”…
Your attitude of God made Repulicans and Hades is for all the othersis, well, it’s beyond belief. How many friends do you have? Your righteous indignation is wearing thin. You really have to open both eyes. And I’ll bet that you think I just called you names…but I didn’t.

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MIKE: the 58000 was Viet Nam… You think they all volenteered?
——————

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USinUK –

“Look it up – Clinton DID enact sanctions against Iraq (which were very controversial at the time, with accusations that his limiting imports into the country was causing the death of thousands)”

You aren’t reading very well today. I was asking Doggone what the means to end the sanctions were and why didn’t Clinton use them.

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Mmm, mmm, mmm Barack Hussein Obama

September 24th, 2009
12:05 pm

Yeppers…have also seen that and the teachers responsible should be terminated. Shameful at best.

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Jay, what is going on… I’m trying to answer Mike and I’m not cussin’
What’s up with that?

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” I don’t think anyone strives to live on welfare, and I think it’s more important to look at reasons why so many wind up there.”

What a naive comment. Come visit my neck of the woods and I’ll be happy to introduce you to plenty of folks that think their gov’t assistance is their “paycheck”. They have played the system so long it has become a lifestyle. What incentive do they have to ever give that up? Go out and work for it? – hardly. Lets see, go to work for 40 hours and get money or stay home and get money. Which would you choose? And I’ll say it again because you like think it isn’t happening – come see me and I’ll show you plenty of examples.

Just because you may not see it does not mean it does not happen. The system has tons of waste and minimal checks and balances. No different than getting “medical” pot in CA. Tell the doc you can’t sleep at night and walla – legal pot.

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Normal Your comment is awaiting moderation.

September 24th, 2009
12:11 pm
We are not killing them. They are volunteer soldiers who are dying in combat. Please don’t’ let your rhetorical flourishes get in the way of reality.
—————-
That statement is so ridiculous it is beyond the pale, and just serves to remind me that you do not debate you just scream “Je accuse”…
Your attitude of G-d made Repulicans and Hades is for all the others is, well, it’s beyond belief. How many friends do you have? Your righteous indignation is wearing thin. You really have to open both eyes. And I’ll bet that you think I just called you names…but I didn’t.

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mike –

“You aren’t reading very well today”

I think I have mike-block

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Doggone –

Look if you want to be rude and annoying that is your right. You can talk on your cell phone in the middle of restaurant too.

“But I never made that claim…”

No but Normal did and you jumped into the middle of that conversation with your comment to me.

“Legitimate complain against Afghanistan…”

Yes, but if it is a failure and lives are wasted, by your own definition Obama is a killer too. Of course the only standard that you care about is partisan in nature, so who cares about the rest.

“What does that have to do with starting a war..”

You said that there were ways besides war to end the sanctions. I asked you what they were and why Clinton didn’t use them but you are unable to.

“Where is the proof of that…”

Because there were no protests against the deaths caused by sanctions, no angry editorials and no documentaries about the subject. What planet do you live on?

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Jay, no I’m not surprised at all that my post about you moderating posts wasn’t “awaiting moderation”. I figured you were probably cruising the Daily Kos to discuss topics with you ideologues and just missed it for a while.

Rather than making light of it, why not offer an explanation why such a benign post such as mine was “awaiting moderation”?

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“only for a few months at a time. so, yes, they actually DID have to reenter the country after Bush was president”

They didn’t go out and come back in. They got lost in the cracks just like the other 20+ million here illegally. You actually think we know where all the folks are that don’t return home after their tourist or student visas expire? There are plenty that stay and get lost here, and the good ole US does nothing about it. Even to this day. Ever heard of “sanctuary cities”, the equivalent to “don’t ask don’t tell” for civilians.

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mike –

“I guess, except that you also misread Bookman’s post earlier ”

yeah, but that was all your fault, too …

(as is the fact that the link to the document that I need to work on is broken … it’s all your fault today … jsut thought I’d let you know)

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md –

“They didn’t go out and come back in.”

actually, they did. go back and reread the 9/11 report.

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md –

“The 19 hijackers entered the United States a total of 33 times. They
arrived through ten different airports, though more than half came in
through Miami, JFK, or Newark. A visitor with a tourist visa was
usually admitted for a stay of six months. All but two of the
hijackers were admitted for such stays. Hanjour had a student visa and
was admitted for a stay of two years, and Suqami sought and was
admitted for a stay of 20 days. The four pilots passed through INS and
Customs inspections a total of 17 times before
9/11. Hanjour came to the United States to attend school in three
stints during the 1990s. His final arrival was in December 2000,
through the Cincinnati/Northern Kentucky airport. The other three
pilots, Atta, al Shehhi, and Jarrah, initially came in May and June
2000. They arrived for the last time between May and August 2001″

http://answers.google.com/answers/threadview/id/754770.html

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Jay –

No one participates on their site from the AJC or many major papers nearly as much as you do and your time is very much appreciated. But the filters are mystifying. They trap things that are very difficult to understand some times. If there were some rhyme, reason, and rules, then people could try to understand them, but there don’t seem to be as to the filters. And I wish you’d mention to your college Cynthia Tucker that she is comprmising the quality of comments on her blog by not allowing links. I don’t know if she even realizes she’s been set up that way. I don’t know of any newspaper (and they all have comment sections, that stops links from happening, and most allow unlimited numbers of links).

WaPO, NYT, WSJ LAT, etc.

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mike –

“That’s cool. I’d like to give Bush a break from everything being his fault for a little bit.”

you’re a giver … what can you say

(I try to do the same for Clinton on occasion, so I know how you feel)

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okay, folkses … since I can’t edit this flippin’ document (thanks a LOT, mike), I’mma heading home …

have a good evening!!

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Jonah Goldberg had an interesting take on this a couple of weeks ago (seen here):

Herewith, two scenarios.

Now, which one is more believable? For the record, I don’t believe either. But it seems to me the “birther” hypothesis is vastly more plausible than the “truther” hypothesis. Politicians lie to advance their careers. You can look it up. Whole governments rarely orchestrate incredibly complex acts of physics, logistics and mass murder all the while pinning guilt on others (who boast that they acted alone).

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MIKE: what worries you the most is you can’t see the difference between domestic duties, like cops being killed in the line of duty protecting Americans in America and Soldiers being sent off to die in an unwinnable war because of Governmental mismanagement and ignorance.
——————-

Your attitude of God made Repulicans and Hades is for all the others is, well, it’s beyond belief.”

What does that load of crap mean? Are you frothing.

That DID hit close to home, didn’t? Otherwise you would have laughed it off. I win!

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Baucus Plan–Blue Dogs and Repubs paid heavily by insurance companies, want to raise insurance premiums dramatically–makes sense if you have money to burn

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-na-healthcare-affordability2-2009sep24,0,3493021.story?page=1

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“You said that there were ways besides war to end the sanctions. I asked you what they were and why Clinton didn’t use them but you are unable to”

What other ways? You just STOP doing them. How difficult is that to figure out? As for Clinton, you want to know why HE didn’t end them? You’ll have to ask HIM. I failed basic mind reading, as I’ve said before. Or maybe you can ask one of those other conned who DO read minds. Though be warned, they aren’t very good at it.

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Ms Godzilla-@12:25,-I agree report them,but should’nt the agency running the program be held accountable. And does the govmnt really oversee welfare or just write checks? Just askin?

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usuk

” The passports belonging to eight of the nineteen hijackers had evidence of “fraudulent manipulation” and five had “suspicious indicators.” The report also said that six hijackers, including Mohammad Atta, violated immigration laws either while residing in the US or when entering the US. Five of these were individually questioned by officials, but were eventually allowed to enter the US. Atta was admitted to the US on a tourist visa, despite informing an inspection officer that he was a student in the US. Six of the hijackers had overstayed their visas.”

Looks to me that 6 never went out and came back in.

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Hef

Hell yes, there should be accountability…..I wonder if the agency tasked with this responsibility is suffering the same issues as say the
FDA and DFACS? (Not enough field officers)

I’ll go a step further – those who see the fraud and turn their heads away rather than reporting it are guilty too.

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Upstairs, y’all

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The first amendment to fix Medicare Part D and get seniors their meds fails 13-10. It helps me know who to hate in the Senate. It also puts a Gold W for pharmaceutical whore on the chest of everyhone who voted “No.” There will be several others, there are four other bills that do it, and there are miles to go before the final law is passed around Christmas.

Dr. Grandma Grassley says yeast and rice will bring up your HDL and lower your LDL, and control cholesterol much better than drugs. If you want to lower your cardiac risk, run out to the nearest grocery and don’t accept an substitute for Grandma Grassley’s Repubozo Nutzo Cholesterols Cure.

From Grassley: “They don’t need no stinkin’ HMG Co-A Reductase Inhibitors.

His employers at pharma wouldn’t be happy.

I hope you all find that birth certificate. Is their an amendment in the Senate Finance Committee? Well their oughta be. Maybe Grandma Grassley will intro it. Ah don’t understand how a Kenyan citizen be presoodunt of US. Got to go to work and make sure mah babuhs isn’t in school and is home watchin’ reruns of Atlanta Housewife Trashinistas.

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Another way for Jay to fill empty space!

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Normal –

“That DID hit close to home, didn’t? Otherwise you would have laughed it off. I win!”

It didn’t hit close to him because it was incoherent. I think it had something to do with the fact that I think all Republicans are great and everyone else is bad. This is utter nonsense. As my posts cleary state I think both sides are the same.

You need to get some control over your anger. It is making you irrational.

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Public Option –

“It is just mind boggling amazing to see Republicans like Snowe, Graslly and Ensign arguing to continue to deprive older people of meds they need.”

Easy with the fear tactics or GayGreek is going to call you out. Oh wait. You share his views so he doesn’t care about your fear-mongering.

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GayGrayGeek –

You are so blinded by your partisanship that you can’t even see your hypcorsity.

Public Option just said “It is just mind boggling amazing to see Republicans like Snowe, Graslly and Ensign arguing to continue to deprive older people of meds they need.”

Please explain either why Public Option is not spreading fear or just admit that you are a hypocrite who is too intolerant of other views to see that fear mongering is a tactic used by both sides.

Also, fear is all you talk about. You even have a stupid tagline that you use for it. How can you possibly say “It’s only you wingnuts who are so incredibly enamoured with the concept of fear”.

Oh wait. I know how. You are a hypocrite.

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G3: You are so blinded by your partisanship that you can’t even see your hypcorsity….

I think mike has that tattooed somewhere she/he uses it so much…

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Normal –

“I think mike has that tattooed somewhere she/he uses it so much…”

Kind of like your ceaseless and hypocritical whining that conservatives are angry? LOL. You are a joke.

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Paul, Public Option doesn’t have any sources for anything. He or she is to busy trying to find help for identifying someone to hate, however, I don’t think P.O. really needs any help for that. I think this is the same clown who was telling people on another blog that he or she was a doctor. When you read the P.O. posts there just isn’t isn’t any substance there.

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Del–

Once in a while I see patients as dumb as you but not often. I link sources almost 90% of my posts and I’m not interested in the personalities of other posts like the Katy Abram ignorant whackjobs. If the shoe fits where it.

Del I haven’t seen one fact from you on point to healthcare. Cat got your tongue there?

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Neoconservative

1 : a former liberal espousing political conservatism
2 : a conservative who advocates the assertive promotion of democracy and United States national interest in international affairs including through military means

I see there are many candidates here to become a neoconservative. First, we debunk the “global wariming ideology” which is happening now world wide.

Next, the birthers deserve to see a birth certificate! What if the people in Hawaii are liberal progressives determined to make our country socialist? Would not they fabricated a birth certificate? You know that is as prudent as Bush causing or allowing 9/11 in his first eight months of office. I guess FDR allowed the attack on Pearle Harbor so he could help out his friends in Europe.

What about starving an oil based economy of oil by speculating green energy is the cureall which cost billions of dollars to citizens and hundreds of thousands of jobs.

YEP SOMEONE DOING THAT SHOULD SHOW ME A BIRTH CERTIFICATE!

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A better poll is the recent one comparing possible Republican candidates against Obama. Obama basically creams any Republican potential candidate:

2012 President

Obama 50%, Bush 37%
Obama 48%, Huckabee 41%
Obama 53%, Palin 38%
Obama 48%, Romney 39%

http://www.pollster.com/blogs/us_2012_pres_ppp_91821.php

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