A cage match between birthers and truthers
In an effort to gauge “fringe” sentiments, Public Policy Polling added a couple of interesting questions to its recent national poll:
“Do you think Barack Obama was born in the United States?”
“Do you think President Bush intentionally allowed the 9/11 attacks to take place because
he wanted the United States to go to war in the Middle East?”
Over at Pollster.com, Brendan Nyhan put the results into a chart, broken down by party affiliation. 
The chart combines those who said “yes” and those who said they were uncertain. For example, 25 percent of Democrats said they believed Bush had allowed the attacks of 9/11 to take place, while another 12 percent said they weren’t sure. Nyhan charts that at 37 percent.
Likewise, 42 percent of Republicans said they believe Obama was not born in the United States, and another 22 percent said they weren’t sure, for a total on the chart of 64 percent.
Personally, I doubt the numbers are that high. In the course of answering a poll, people can tend to treat statements like these as expressions of political loyalty or antipathy. They don’t really believe that Bush allowed Sept. 11 to happen or that Obama isn’t a citizen, but the question gives them a way to voice their more general opposition to those figures.
At least that’s what I keep telling myself, because otherwise I’d have to believe there are a lot of crazy people in this country.
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313 comments Add your comment
Normal
September 24th, 2009
7:45 am
MR. PRESIDENT, BRING OUR TROOPS HOME!
——————-
LET’S RRRUUUMMMBBBLLLEEE!!!
Doggone/GA
September 24th, 2009
7:46 am
” In the course of answering a poll, people can tend to treat statements like these as expressions of political loyalty or antipathy.”
And that’s why I never respond to polls
Normal
September 24th, 2009
7:49 am
At least that’s what I keep telling myself, because otherwise I’d have to believe there are a lot of crazy people in this country.
I CERTAINLY BELIEVE IT.
Normal
September 24th, 2009
7:51 am
Doggone, If I respond to a poll, I put down uncertain all the way down,
and I write a note on the front, asking why they didn’t have a “don’t give a fig” column.
Mrs. Godzilla
September 24th, 2009
7:52 am
I don’t think the word “allow” is exactly correct. So I’d have to say no, he didn’t “allow” 9/11 to happen.
A better word might be fumble.
Doggone/GA
September 24th, 2009
7:58 am
Mrs G…there are several definitions of “allow” and this one: “to permit by neglect, oversight, or the like:” is probably the one a lot of people who replied Yes to that question had in mind. If *I* was to respond yes to that question, this definition is why.
Peadawg
September 24th, 2009
7:59 am
I guess there are idiots on BOTH SIDES after all…contrary to Jay, Godzilla, Normal, Doggon, and UsinUk’s belief.
Turd Ferguson
September 24th, 2009
7:59 am
Cage match?
In lieu of a Cage match I think it would be fitting if we had one of the following matches…
A Texas Death match.
A 32 man over the top rope battle royal.
A shave head match (loser gets head shaved).
A Mis-match.
A Lumberjack match (constestants beat one another w/2X4’s).
A No rope barbed wire deathmatch.
A Crapfest match (constestants hurl feces at one another).
A Falls count anywhere match.
A Ladder match.
A Crazy-8 match.
A Dooms-day cage match.
Hell in a Cell match.
A Lions Den match (Loser is fed to the lions).
A Guillotine match (Losers head is lopped off using a rusty dull blade).
A Pepper Spray match (Can of pepper spray is sprayed in face of loser).
A Jay Bookman match (Loser forced to spend week with Jay Bookman). That gotta be hell on earth.
A Hell on earth match (Loser forced to spend week with Jay Bookman).
And finally a Texas Death match (loser is taken out and shot in the face until dead).
Doggone/GA
September 24th, 2009
8:01 am
“contrary to Jay, Godzilla, Normal, Doggon, and UsinUk’s belief.”
There you go with that amazingly BAD mind reading again. You need a refresher course.
GOP is Gone
September 24th, 2009
8:01 am
Why give either of these ludicrous opinions any more time in the media?
Peadawg
September 24th, 2009
8:04 am
“There you go with that amazingly BAD mind reading again. You need a refresher course.”
From your repeated comments on this board, IMO(it is obvious), y’all believe the Left can do no wrong..the Right can do no right. This pole proves otherwise. It goes both ways people whether you believe it or not.
Doggone/GA
September 24th, 2009
8:08 am
“From your repeated comments on this board, IMO(it is obvious), y’all believe the Left can do no wrong..the Right can do no right.”
your opinion is based on, at best, faulty memory of what is posted here. You will never, no matter how hard you try, find any post from ME that would lead you to conclude I think “the Left” can do no wrong. NEVER.
TnGelding
September 24th, 2009
8:09 am
Normal
September 24th, 2009
7:45 am
Thanks for the notice downstairs.
Turd Ferguson
September 24th, 2009
7:59 am
Now you know you can’t get enough of Jay.
You need to take this one down, Jay. Cynthia beat you to it.
Mrs. Godzilla
September 24th, 2009
8:11 am
Peadawg
and a gracious good morning to you too!
What a delightful fellow you are!
TnGelding
September 24th, 2009
8:11 am
Don’t you have to be crazy to be a Democrat or a Republican? (But Cynthia called them loony.)
Mrs. Godzilla
September 24th, 2009
8:13 am
Reposted from downstairs…..considering the topic is nut cases….
I wonder …..have Lou Dobbs and Michelle Bachmann seen this?
“A U.S. Census worker found hanging from a tree near a Kentucky cemetery had the word “fed” scrawled on his chest, a law enforcement official said Wednesday, and the FBI is investigating whether he was a victim of anti-government sentiment.”
here:
http://rawstory.com/blog/2009/09/census-worker-found-hanged/
Peadawg
September 24th, 2009
8:14 am
“and a gracious good morning to you too!
What a delightful fellow you are!
Good morning to you too ma’am. I’m usually grumpy on Monday but my mood gets better throughout the week
Redneck Convert (R--and proud of it)
September 24th, 2009
8:15 am
Well, it was right there on TV. My President was reading My Pet Goat to the kids in Florida when the Terrists hit us. And when he was told they hit us he stopped reading and sort of set there all froze up like he’d been whacked with a 2 x 4. Like you’d freeze up if your wife told you you wasn’t the father of your own kids. So it’s a lie to say he allowed them to do it.
Now if Obama was born in the U.S. of A. he would of showed us the Long Form of his Birth Certificate by now. And he still ain’t done it because he don’t have none and he was born in Kenya. So it’s the Truth he wasn’t born in the U.S. of A.
Use some Common Sense, people. You know the Truth about these things. Have a good day everybody.
Mrs. Godzilla
September 24th, 2009
8:16 am
Peadawg
so we’ve noticed.
TnGelding
September 24th, 2009
8:16 am
Mrs. Godzilla
September 24th, 2009
8:09 am
That depends on what your definition of fair is. They’re definitely going to have to pay more. What about a temporary 10% surtax on everyone and a 10% tax on those of us that aren’t contributing? And of course, letting the reductions expire a natural 10 year death.
Taxpayer
September 24th, 2009
8:20 am
Who is Lou Dobbs and why would he call himself a flea-bitten dirty mangy dog. That is the sort of stupid talk that I would expect from, oh well, a birther.
stands for decibels
September 24th, 2009
8:20 am
Personally, I doubt the numbers are that high. In the course of answering a poll, people can tend to treat statements like these as expressions of political loyalty or antipathy. They don’t really believe that Bush allowed Sept. 11 to happen or that Obama isn’t a citizen, but the question gives them a way to voice their more general opposition to those figures.
Yeah. If I had to make a SWAG as to a genuine percentage, I’d say cut them in half. For instance, I don’t really think that (as was reported amid much bemusement in mid-August) that 8% of North Carolinians “consider Hawaii to be part of the United
States”. I think it just means that 8% of NCers are ornery enough to tell a pollster than they don’t.
(Why so ornery? IMHO, because they’re that heavily in denial about the results of the last election.)
Likely, though, yeah–4% really do either think Hawaii is not part of the US, or aren’t sure. and I bet it’s not just NC that can make such a claim of its residents, either.
TnGelding
September 24th, 2009
8:23 am
yowsa
September 24th, 2009
8:17 am
Definitely tracking in the wrong direction, but I’d guess it’ll start going the other way when he is authenticated with good results. I’d like to see a little less Bush and a little more Clinton in style.
Taxpayer
September 24th, 2009
8:24 am
Well, I find it difficult to disagree with the notion that the right wing nutter butters can do nothing correct. However, they most certainly always do what only right wing nutter butters do.
TnGelding
September 24th, 2009
8:25 am
Mrs. Godzilla
September 24th, 2009
8:09 am
Aren’t you a small business owner?
How is your mother-in-law doing?
Hef
September 24th, 2009
8:28 am
Sadly I disagree,I do believe there are those on all sides that tend to go for extreme positions,that’s why we have so much tabloid media. National Enquir,TMZ,PEOPLE,Reality TV,etc make a killing off such fools.Polls like these just re-inforce my beliefs
USinUK
September 24th, 2009
8:29 am
Peadawg –
“I guess there are idiots on BOTH SIDES after all…contrary to Jay, Godzilla, Normal, Doggon, and UsinUk’s belief.”
actually, I never would have argued that with you (having worked in politics for 6 years and lived in DC for 8 – I’ve seen ‘em up CLOSE!)
Mrs. Godzilla
September 24th, 2009
8:29 am
TN…
We own 2 small business’s…and I have a job to boot.
Our MiMi is ok….she’s got about 4 or 5 good hours a day now. We took her to see the ocean last week and I think the salt air and change of scenery did her some good. But we did have another episode last night…some mom doctoring and steroid inhalers and nebulizers and O2 calmed her down and got her breathing normally again. Scarey stuff.
You are very sweet to ask.
ir4georgia
September 24th, 2009
8:31 am
If we’re crazy (”because otherwise I’d have to believe there are a lot of crazy people in this country”), then just answer the questions
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZyKR2-A0KPU
Goldie
September 24th, 2009
8:32 am
Yes, there’s a lot of crazies in this country… John Birch-ers, birth-ers, KKK-ers, etc…
USinUK
September 24th, 2009
8:32 am
Mrs. G –
8:13 – I saw that story this morning and was absolutely horrified. (of course, the idea that the investigators are ruling out “self-inflicted” seems a bit of a waste of time, but I guess they gotta do what they gotta do) …
but you can’t tell me that wing-nuts (not ALL republicans, just the crispy bits on the edge) haven’t fed into this fear and loathing of all things gummint …
Mrs. Godzilla
September 24th, 2009
8:32 am
SCrew the cage match……make it pudding wrestling.
Paul
September 24th, 2009
8:34 am
[[At least that’s what I keep telling myself, because otherwise I’d have to believe there are a lot of crazy people in this country.]]
I keep hoping the number (20-25%) of people who will believe has remained constant. I hope these two – one funneling into fascination with conspiracy theories, the other, a justification as to why ‘he isn’t really our president’ (same idea as liberal’s disputing the rule of law with the Court’s 2000 Bush v Gore decision to say ‘he really isn’t our president) – are elevated because of the partisan view of things.
At least, that’s what I keep hoping -
RW-(the original)
September 24th, 2009
8:36 am
And that’s why I never respond to polls
After observing this blog for a while I find it very hard to believe there’s anything you don’t respond too.
Cue response……
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
America will always stand with those who stand up for their dignity and their rights – for the student who seeks to learn; the voter who demands to be heard; the innocent who longs to be free; and the oppressed who yearns to be equal.–BHO 9/23/09
Tell that one to Neda and the rest of the Iranian people that yearned to be free and equal, Barry. Words…just words.
USinUK
September 24th, 2009
8:39 am
Mrs G –
“SCrew the cage match……make it pudding wrestling”
how about a friendly game of kickball??
as for the question “did the president allow 9/11 to happen” – I wish they had made it a little more b/w to weed the truly nutty out … I would say “yes” simply because he ignored the PDB and hadn’t convened a single meeting about terrorism between taking office and 9/11. Call it “allowing” through benign neglect, not anything nefarious. I don’t think there was a conspiracy, I just think that ignorance allowed it to happen.
mike
September 24th, 2009
8:41 am
Saying that you don’t know whether Obama was born in America does not make you a birther. I am confident that a lot of people don’t know if he was born here, but also think that he is a legitimate President. Does Jay really think that all of these people know about the naturalized birth requirements for the President? Give me a break. Bookman is using the same lame trick that Tucker did yesterday.
On the other hand, there is no doubt about the views of the “truthers”. There is no ambiguoty about that question.
Finally, let’s compare the two charges. You can not think that Bush may have been behind 9/11 without being a truly evil person. There is no such connotation to the accusation that one is born out of the country.
USinUK
September 24th, 2009
8:42 am
RW –
“Tell that one to Neda and the rest of the Iranian people that yearned to be free and equal, Barry. Words…just words.”
there’s a difference between standing up for them and inserting ourselves into a political process of a sovereign nation. sorry, but I think that staying out of Iran’s affairs and letting democracy bubble up from the bottom (which is happening) is the right thing to do.
USinUK
September 24th, 2009
8:44 am
mike –
“You can not think that Bush may have been behind 9/11 without being a truly evil person. ”
thanks – that was exactly my point – I think there’s a world of difference between saying that he allowed it to happen and saying he was behind it.
RW-(the original)
September 24th, 2009
8:44 am
USinUK,
Apparently BO holds your same belief that we should stay out of other people’s political affairs and even if I don’t hold that view I can understand it, but if one holds that view they shouldn’t be giving speeches saying they’ll stand and support anyone that yearns to be free since all they’re really prepared to do is watch them get slaughtered in the street.
Kayaker 71
September 24th, 2009
8:45 am
Apparently, there was one legislator who lost her Congressional seat because she alleged that Bush not only had prior knowledge of 9/11 but was complicit in purposefully allowing the event to happen. I sometimes wish she were still in Congress. At least we had someone to laugh about from time to time.
Atlanta Native
September 24th, 2009
8:47 am
Jay, you read the comments and respond from time to time (unlike a certain counterpart of yours).
You know that there are sufficient fanatics on both sides that will never let reality intrude on their beliefs. The problem is when the entirety of one side gets painted as the same as the crazies.
These statistics are why those of us who are sane and have jobs and busy lives need to respond to polls. Otherwise the nutjobs views get into the political focus groups.
GayGrayGeek
September 24th, 2009
8:47 am
Doggone @ 8:08 – It’s that old wingnut tactic of “Proof By Repeated Assertion” aka “Repeat a lie enough times and it becomes the truth”. At least Peadawg didn’t start with the drumbeat of how you FEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEER ‘em. :-/
mike
September 24th, 2009
8:47 am
USinUK –
“as for the question “did the president allow 9/11 to happen” – I wish they had made it a little more b/w to weed the truly nutty out ”
Are you kidding? Can you not read?
Here is question:
““Do you think President Bush intentionally allowed the 9/11 attacks to take place because
he wanted the United States to go to war in the Middle East?”
There is nothing ambiguous about that question at all. On the other hand, the Obama question is very ambiguous.
If the Obama question had been phrased the same way it would read something like:
““Do you think Barack Obama was born outside the United State, making his Presidency invalid?”
But of course, Jay is sourcing a hyper-partisan polling outfit who clearly designed the questions to minimize the number of truthers and maximize he number of birthers. They are just as intellectually dishonest as Jay.
USinUK
September 24th, 2009
8:48 am
for anyone who is an ancient history buff, you might find this interesting:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/staffordshire/8272058.stm
(sadly, there was nothing inscribed in elvish)
Paul
September 24th, 2009
8:48 am
G’morning, USinUK
I realize much of this is one’s own interpretation of what might have been, as well as how much power one thinks a single person has to move the vast bureaucracy from historic practices -
but, just the other day a judge chastised the Obama Administration for not following the President’s executive order to simple review the Gitmo cases, oldest first, and make prosecution recommendations…. gov’t said it needed more time….
and, the Executive recognized the problem continuing incarceration at Gitmo poses and ordered the facility closed…. yet months later, after lots of meetings and policy papers and discussions, no progress…
yet we cling to the belief that the tragedy of 9-11 might have been averted, that the enmity and mistrust and noncooperation that existed between Federal agencies; that the public would be willing to endure odious measures in the face of a nonspecific threat; that years of procedures and policies and all the myriad problems outlined in the 9-11 Commission report….
would have been overcome if we’d had a few meetings and said yet again, ‘the guy doesn’t like us, and as we’ve heard for ten years, wants to attack us.”
But we can’t even review old court cases or decide what to do with prisoners. After lots of meetings.
USinUK
September 24th, 2009
8:49 am
Mike –
“Here is question:
““Do you think President Bush intentionally allowed the 9/11 attacks to take place because he wanted the United States to go to war in the Middle East?”
There is nothing ambiguous about that question at all. On the other hand, the Obama question is very ambiguous.”
sorry – my apologies – I was just going by the heading on the graph.
that being the question, ignore my earlier post – you’re dead-on right.
mike
September 24th, 2009
8:50 am
GayGrayGeek –
Your hypocrisy is laughable. You are describing the behavior of mindless partisans of both stripes, of which you are one. Maybe if you weren’t so wrapped up by your hypocrisy you could note that the tactics of extremists on the right and the left are pretty much the same. Like you or Redneck Convert for example. You are intolerant of other views so you cast ignorant stereotypes on those who subscribe to them. Rush’s ditthoeads do the same. You are all alike.
mike
September 24th, 2009
8:51 am
USinUK –
Duly noted
USinUK
September 24th, 2009
8:53 am
kayaker –
“At least we had someone to laugh about from time to time.”
see: Michelle Bachmann
RW –
“if one holds that view they shouldn’t be giving speeches saying they’ll stand and support anyone that yearns to be free since all they’re really prepared to do is watch them get slaughtered in the street”
mmm … I understand where you’re coming from, but what are the options? (that’s not a sarcastic inquiry, I’d really be interested to know how you think the iranian elections should have been handled … particularly given our frought history with the country)
Paul
September 24th, 2009
8:53 am
Good morning, RW-(the original)
Hero and Ando were discussing (subtitles) their new business, Dial a Hero. Hero’s sister was upset with the yen spent and vowed not one yen more. Ando looked at an old pic of the three of them and said how Heroe’s sister, whom he loved, hated him ever since as youngsters he spilled a slushie on her. Hero wanted to go back in time to fix it.