Palin, DeMint should take lessons from this guy
Judging from conservative rhetoric, the debate over health-care reform is in truth a fight over the future of American democracy and capitalism. Stopping the health-care bill is being described as an essential step toward restoring America to its rightful owners and rightful course.
“Friends, this is a critical battle for the heart and soul of America, and for freedom itself,” Sen. Jim DeMint of South Carolina told a rally in Washington over the weekend. “Freedom fighters are outnumbered in Congress, but not in America. If you continue to stand up and speak out, we will save freedom in America.”
Sarah Palin, the former governor of Alaska, made a more personal contribution to the hysteria. Health care reform would not merely threaten the foundations of America, she warned, it would lead to government-mandated abandonment of our loved ones and family.
“The America I know and love is not one in which my parents or my baby with Down syndrome will have to stand in front of Obama’s ‘death panel’ so his bureaucrats can decide, based on a subjective judgment of their ‘level of productivity in society,’whether they are worthy of health care,” Palin wrote on her Facebook page. “Such a system is downright evil.”
While that’s some pretty impressive demagoguery, Palin, DeMint and others are mere pikers compared to the master of the genre. To appreciate true genius in explaining how government health care will destroy all that is good and Godly about this country, you can’t do better than the Great Communicator himself, Ronald Reagan.
In a recording back in 1961, Reagan patiently explained, step by step, how the then-controversial proposal to create Medicare would lead to an America in which freedom was a distant memory. In post-Medicare America, government would dictate to its citizens where they would be allowed to live, what they would be allowed to study and what career they could pursue.
It’s a great case study in how elusive the line between reality and fantasy can be, particularly in the hands of a master illusionist.
Reagan begins by noting that under Medicare, the federal government would pay doctors for the care they provide. From that single data point, he weaves a portrait of America that none of us would recognize.
“First you decide that the doctor can have so many patients — (the patients are) equally divided among the various doctors by the government,” Reagan says in a perfectly reasonable sounding conjecture. “But then the doctors aren’t evenly divided geographically, so a doctor decides he wants to practice in one town, and the government has to say to him, ‘You can’t live in that town, they already have enough doctors, you have to go someplace else,’ and from there it is only a short step to dictating where he will go.”
Note the graceful transition as one “what if” glides effortlessly into the next, and then the next, until suddenly the listener finds himself led into a crazy country in which federal bureaucrats dictate where doctors can live and work. As the Gipper notes, “this is a freedom that I wonder if any of us have the right to take from another human being.” (The effect is even more convincing if you listen to Reagan’s words rather than read them.)
To hear Reagan tell it, they won’t stop there. Once government starts dictating to doctors where they can live and practice, it will do the same for all Americans, in all lines of work.
“Pretty soon, your son won’t decide when he’s in school where he will go or what he will do for a living,” Reagan warns. “He will wait for the government to tell him where he will go to work, and what he will do.” Once Medicare becomes law, Reagan concludes, Americans will “spend our sunset years telling our children and our children’s children what it once was like in America, when men were free.”
Today, almost half a century later, we know how things turned out. Medicare did become law, as Reagan feared, but the rest of his horror story never came to pass. Government is not dictating where we can live or what we can study or what career we can enter. We remain a free people, in many ways far more free than we were in 1961. And Medicare is now so popular that even as Republican leaders rail about the dangers of “socialized medicine,” they make sure to exempt Medicare from that criticism.
In other words, conjecture is a land of many possibilities. There was nothing in the original Medicare bill that would have let government dictate where physicians could live and work, just as there’s nothing in the current reform bill that will create “death panels” or a government takeover of health care or subsidize health insurance for illegal immigrants. But words like “could” and “might” let you claim almost anything.
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381 comments Add your comment
mike
September 15th, 2009
2:54 pm
I think Jay should follow this up with another article about how conservatives are obsessed with Reagan, Palin or Reagan and Palin.
That should would be in the same vein of intellectual consistency he established in his last post.
Scooter
September 15th, 2009
2:54 pm
First?
Scooter
September 15th, 2009
2:54 pm
Dang!
Doggone/GA
September 15th, 2009
3:11 pm
OOOOOH! Those DARN slippery slopes. Turn out not to even be there, don’t they?
mike
September 15th, 2009
3:13 pm
“Judging from conservative rhetoric, the debate over health-care reform is in truth a fight over the future of American democracy and capitalism. ”
I would venture to say that most liberals believe the same thing
Paul
September 15th, 2009
3:16 pm
Scooter
That’s okay. You were 2 and 2 is more than 1.
Okay, I’ve read this was “Reagan the private citizen” and “it was a product of a front group for the American Medical Association.”
Was this anything more than a 1960s infomercial?
Regardless, a lot of people bought into it.
But the DeMint and Palin stuff…. I have a tough time understanding how people who have done even a cursory view of the proposals come up with this stuff. It reminds me of a person who applies to get a permit to remodel their home who wakes up in the morning to find demonstrators on the lawn with signs that say “NO APARTMENTS!!!” Person says “I’m just remodeling my house…” Demonstrators say “yeah right… you start knocking down walls, changing everything… pretty soon we’ll have apartments and all sorts of low income transients living here!!! NO APARTMENTS!!!!”
Me, I kinda like the idea people can’t be dropped for preexisting conditions. And Jay’s enforcement mechanism to make sure neer-do-wells don’t game the system. And no caps on coverage. And no denials of coverage.
If that’s socialized medicine, I’ll take it. Gladly.
I Report/ Vast White Wing Conspirator (-: You Whine )-:
September 15th, 2009
3:18 pm
Today, almost half a century later, we know how things turned out. Medicare did become law, as Reagan feared, but the rest of his horror story never came to pass.
Medicare has how much in unfunded liabilities?
Wow, what a champion program.
jt
September 15th, 2009
3:21 pm
So…….
He was off a FEW years.
Let his spirit fill you as your satuated fat is seized and you are MANDATED to wash your hands.
Joey
September 15th, 2009
3:23 pm
Jay;
It could be argued, convincingly, that you have be trying to dictate where people live and work for 20 years or more. All of your anti-suburbs commentaries were about where people should live and work as well as how they should commute.
AmVet
September 15th, 2009
3:24 pm
Reagan was an actor. And from what I saw not even a good one.
As for US President? Exceptionally middling. And as Nixon noted vastly over-rated…
rightwing troll
September 15th, 2009
3:25 pm
Got us there with “unfunded liabilities” now what about the rest of the BS? Has any of it come to pass?
I still feel pretty free…
Doggone/GA
September 15th, 2009
3:27 pm
“I would venture to say that most liberals believe the same thing”
and you would be wrong. It’s a fight between true compassion and the “I got mine” faction.
TaxPayer
September 15th, 2009
3:28 pm
Hence, we must strike preemptively at this scourge because once socialism gets a foothold, then it’s just a short step to communism. Yes! I said communism and I will fight til your last breath to stop it. Stop it dead. No matter what it takes from you. Well, he probably did say it in so many words. That’s our Ronnie.
AmVeterinarian - Practicing in Farm Animals with a specialty in Swine.
September 15th, 2009
3:29 pm
AmVet – your opinion doesn’t hold any weight.
jt
September 15th, 2009
3:30 pm
“If that’s socialized medicine, I’ll take it. Gladly.”
I’m glad that’s out of the way, socialist.
Paul
September 15th, 2009
3:30 pm
TaxPayer
Oh, I dunno… if not for a whacko petition, Van Jones would still be in…
Paul
September 15th, 2009
3:31 pm
jt
Finally a response from someone who can tell me which of the following elements constitute socialism:
“people can’t be dropped for preexisting conditions. And Jay’s enforcement mechanism to make sure neer-do-wells don’t game the system. And no caps on coverage. And no denials of coverage.”
Which of those are socialism?
mike
September 15th, 2009
3:33 pm
Doggone/GA –
“It’s a fight between true compassion and the “I got mine” faction.”
You mean a fight between good people and bad people? What a coincidence that the good people are the ones who share your particular policy prescriptions and the bad people are the people who don’t.
How convenient that those who disagree with you are not only wrong, but immoral too. Jerry Falwell had the same good fortune
professional skeptic
September 15th, 2009
3:36 pm
Thanks for this, Jay. It would seem that the same old scare tactics, fearmongering and empty talking points employed by the Repubs today were alive and well back in 1961.
Scooter
September 15th, 2009
3:38 pm
Paul, I went to the VA to get medical treatment for the first last week.If that is what socialized HC is like I will gladly take it!
Normal
September 15th, 2009
3:39 pm
Mike…three good posts…my work is done
mike
September 15th, 2009
3:39 pm
professional skeptic –
“It would seem that the same old scare tactics, fearmongering and empty talking points employed by the Repubs today were alive and well back in 1961.”
Yes, Republicans should adopt the positive and uplifting tactics of the left and call people who disagree with them “racists” “evil-mongers” and “un-American”.
mike
September 15th, 2009
3:40 pm
Normal –
Duly noted
Normal
September 15th, 2009
3:41 pm
AmVet. I remember Ronnie’s contribution to WWII was training films, and no lie, he played the guy who always got it wrong.
Paul
September 15th, 2009
3:42 pm
Scooter
I’ve mentioned before I once told a very very very conservative military guy I knew he took part in the most socialized medical system this country had ever seen.
He was a smart guy but had a difficult time getting his mind around the concept. And he was an engineer, no less!
TaxPayer
September 15th, 2009
3:44 pm
Normal
September 15th, 2009
3:41 pm
AmVet. I remember Ronnie’s contribution to WWII was training films, and no lie, he played the guy who always got it wrong
That’s because he wasn’t acting.
josef nix
September 15th, 2009
3:46 pm
mike and Normal–been following y’all’s exchange. Bravi! I wish there were more like you.
pat
September 15th, 2009
3:46 pm
And Madicare is a disaster, is it not? If it’s so good, why does practically everybody on it also carry medicare supplementation? ’cause it’s awsome?
And what is it with you and Palin, you cannot let a week go by with out talking about her?..You must have the hot’s for her or something.
TaxPayer
September 15th, 2009
3:47 pm
And he was an engineer, no less!
Some folks are overly lax with their definitions of titles.
GoingBroke
September 15th, 2009
3:51 pm
The bad part is.. for every story that can be pumped out by Jay.. I can cite hundreds more telling of an opposite story of Gov’t intervention. The biggest problem we have to contend with.. is once the Gov’t gets any type of power, they will not let go. No matter how poorly the program is run or how much the debt increases.
FYI.. when am I going to be invited to an AFL-CIO rally.. since I am now footing part of the bill for it?
AmVet
September 15th, 2009
3:51 pm
Ronnie – the Father of modern American “Conservatism”!
What a farce.
In virtually every meaning of the word he was an abysmal failure as a “conservative”.
Unless by conservative one means:
Exploding the size of government.
Exploding the scope of government.
Exploding the interference of government.
Exploding the COST of government. (LOTS of red ink boys and girls!)
Coddling fascist dictators, tyrants and thugs in every hemisphere.
Wars on Drugs. Wars on Pornography. Implementing the Sex Police.
Allowing disgraced US Marine officers to violate the US Constitution from the WHITE HOUSE BASEMENT!
Then playing stooopid to avoid going to prison himself.
The worst recession in decades.
But by far the worst of his legacy is that he gave rise to the neo-cons of Newt the Nut and of course, the catastrophic BushCo Era.
So in a way you “conservatives” have him to thank for your current unenviable hemorrhaging situation…
jt
September 15th, 2009
3:53 pm
Paul – to answer your question-
Socialism refers to various theories of economic organization advocating public or direct worker ownership and administration of the means of production and allocation of resources, and a society characterized by equal access to resources for all individuals with an egalitarian method of compensation. In Marxist theory, socialism is a transitional phase between capitalism and communism characterized by unequal distribution of goods and compensation according to work done. [1][2][3] Contrary to popular belief, socialism is not a political system; it is an economic system distinct from capitalism, an ideology expounding the setting up of an alternative system, using intervention.
What part don’t you understand? Why are you ashamed of having socialistic beliefs?
With your statist proclivities, you are more susceptable to Totalitarianism.
With our war on drugs, we really are flirting with a TeeTolitarianism.
Do not be ashamed of your beliefs Paul. Everybody makes mistakes. Do not feat individual liberty. The spirit of Reagan and Liberty will ALWAYS protect you.
Normal
September 15th, 2009
3:54 pm
professional skeptic
September 15th, 2009
3:36 pm
You have to remember that back then they just had their world rocked when a (SHOCK!!) Catholic was elected President. OMG!!! Now they have had their world rocked because ( DOUBLE SHOCK!!!!) an Black man has been elected President. When you think your way of life is in danger, you resort to…well, what happened then and what’s happening now…just sayin’
Zeddicus Z'ul Zorrander
September 15th, 2009
3:56 pm
Can Obama force you to buy health insurance?
http://news.yahoo.com/s/csm/ygregory;_ylt=AndQUH1ruJ1rrm5qQDKwuL2MwfIE;_ylu=X3oDMTE2OTJoNTFoBHBvcwMxBHNlYwN5bi1yLWItbGVmdARzbGsDLWNhbm9iYW1hZm9y
AmVeterinarian - Practicing in Farm Animals with a specialty in Swine.
September 15th, 2009
3:58 pm
AmVet, you seem to have described Obama.
mike
September 15th, 2009
3:58 pm
Normal –
Continuing the discussion as to what is civil debate…
Don’t you find it uncivil to accuse people of racism when there is no evidence other than they disagree with the policies of an African-American politician?
I’ve got to tell you. It is incredibly offensive to be accused of being a racist for expressing your opinion on domestic policy.
jt
September 15th, 2009
3:59 pm
AmVet -
He waits for you too.
Reagan was condensed decency. Your abhorrance to that is expected.
You too will shed the darkness of centralized authority and Henry Waxman one day.
The Ronald will be there.,,, with open arms.
I Report/ Vast White Wing Conspirator (-: You Whine )-:
September 15th, 2009
4:01 pm
Plagiarism or talking points fax?
Wednesday, September 02, 2009
Ronald Reagan on Medicare, circa 1961. Prescient rhetoric or familiar alarmist claptrap?
Both sides in the current debate over health care reform are citing this 1961 recording by Ronald Reagan -Eric Zorn, Chicago Tribune
Check out the blog picture, look eerily familiar?-
http://blogs.chicagotribune.com/news_columnists_ezorn/2009/09/ronald-reagan-on-medicare-circa-1961-prescient-rhetoric-or-familiar-alarmist-claptrap-.html
Paul
September 15th, 2009
4:02 pm
jt 3:53
I asked you to please explain which of the following elements constitute socialism:
“people can’t be dropped for preexisting conditions. And Jay’s enforcement mechanism to make sure neer-do-wells don’t game the system. And no caps on coverage. And no denials of coverage.”
It’d be like, if you were asked on a test to pick which of the following of a list of vehicles were SUVs and explain your answer, and you responded with a definition of what constitutes an SUV.
Care to try again?
AmVet
September 15th, 2009
4:03 pm
Oh and did I mention he was a big fan of apartheid?
I know. The corporation that employed me at the time divested itself of all business interests in the racist and bigoted South Africa.
But not Ronnie.
He loved them and called Mandela a terrorist.
Yep that’s real conservative, and a helluva role model…
mike
September 15th, 2009
4:04 pm
AmVet –
You accused conservatives of “Coddling fascist dictators, tyrants and thugs in every hemisphere.”
Can you point to a Democrat since Truman who stood up to “fascist dictators, tyrants and thugs in any hemisphere”?
Kamchak
September 15th, 2009
4:04 pm
The Ronald will be there.,,,with open arms.
And Obama supporters are the one’s with a messiah vision?
I Report/ Vast White Wing Conspirator (-: You Whine )-:
September 15th, 2009
4:04 pm
Well, let us see what the socialists themselves have to say about it. They say once the Ferrand bill is passed this nation will be provided with a mechanism for socialized medicine capable of indefinite expansion in every direction until it includes the entire population. Now we can’t say we haven’t been warned.-Ronald Reagan
Schip, Medicare Part B, Medicare Part C, Medicare Part D……………
Public Option Now.
September 15th, 2009
4:04 pm
Palin is the antithesis of health care. She won’t get treatment for her blatantly obvious Borderline Personality that prevents her from reading and comprehending anything.
Here’s what the Repubozos won’t discuss those here, and those on Capitol Hill:
Repubozos want to get between you and your doctor and the proof is below.
http://healthcarereform.nejm.org/?p=1790&query=home
Davo
September 15th, 2009
4:05 pm
Kayne West Hates White People
by Jack Hunter on September 15, 2009
http://www.takimag.com/article/kayne_west_hates_white_people/
“Dowd simply assumes racism must be the reason for the anger directed at Obama based on her own stereotypical perceptions of white conservatives and Southerners, with little to no contextual evidence to vindicate her assertion. That Taylor Swift is white and Kanye West is black does not necessarily make the rapper a racist despite his bad behavior. And that President Obama is black and Joe Wilson is white does not necessarily make the congressman a racist despite his bad behavior—not to mention his region of origin and Maureen Dowd’s imagination.”
Public Option Now.
September 15th, 2009
4:06 pm
Andy shows what a child’s grasp he has of Medicare which he probably is on.
Medicare has been crippled by Repubozos in 2003 led by Bill Frist who set up Medicare Part D to have a huge donut because it can’t competitively bid like University of Chicago Hospitals and Northwestern Hospitals can.
I Report/ Vast White Wing Conspirator (-: You Whine )-:
September 15th, 2009
4:06 pm
Thanks bookman, for the great Ronald Reagan lecture that I had forgotten about-
Let’s take a look at Social Security itself. Again, very few of us disagree with the original premise that there should be some form of savings that would keep destitution from following unemployment by reason of death, disability or old age. And to this end, Social Security was adopted, but it was never intended to supplant private savings, private insurance, pension programs of unions and industries.
You the man!
AmVet
September 15th, 2009
4:07 pm
jt, look I like differing opinions, that can be remotely corroborated anyway.
Ronnie waits for me too? Where at the right side of the throne?
I do not discount him as a fundamentally decent man. Especially for a borderline criminal, he was actually a helluva guy!
And as an enlightened individual I only ask that you share whatever it is you are ingesting.
Because it sure seems to be giving you some hellacious “visions”…
josef nix
September 15th, 2009
4:10 pm
Davo– @ 4:05 Ssh! Can’t say that around these parts!
Public Option Now.
September 15th, 2009
4:10 pm
Take a big bite of this Andy:
http://healthcarereform.nejm.org/?p=1790&query=home
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=112818960
77% of Americans want a Public Option (Survey USA poll 2 weeks ago and 3 other polls including USA Today)
73% of MDs want a public option (NEJM poll released and posted yesterday–linked here)
Why do you repubozos want to be stupidly in the way of doctors and patients?
AmVet
September 15th, 2009
4:13 pm
K,
I’ve always contended that for the most “faithful” in the right-wing Ronnie was canonized as a Saint.
Perhaps I failed to recognize he had actually been deified.
Which is conclusive proof for me that Obama is a False Messiah.
Or is it Anti-Christ?
mike
September 15th, 2009
4:14 pm
AmVet –
You accused conservatives of “Coddling fascist dictators, tyrants and thugs in every hemisphere.”
Can you point to a Democrat since Truman who stood up to “fascist dictators, tyrants and thugs in any hemisphere”?
josef nix
September 15th, 2009
4:18 pm
mike
“Can you point to a Democrat since Truman who stood up to “fascist dictators, tyrants and thugs in any hemisphere”?”
Reckon maybe that might be because we haven’t had a Democrat since Truman?
Kamchak
September 15th, 2009
4:19 pm
AmVet
Not to mention RWR was asleep for much of his second term and Nancy’s astrologer was making executive decisions
mike
September 15th, 2009
4:20 pm
Public Option Now. –
“77% of Americans want a Public Option (Survey USA poll 2 weeks ago and 3 other polls including USA Today)”
WaPo/ABC poll from this week shows less overwhelming support:
“PUBLIC OPTION – On specifics in the health care plan, 55 percent support a so-called public option, with 42 percent opposed – slightly less opposition than in last month’s 52-46 percent division, but still shy of the initial reaction in June, 62-33 percent support.”
http://abcnews.go.com/PollingUnit/Politics/obama-health-care-abc-news-washington-post-poll/Story?id=8536886&page=3
Likewise, you need to check your MD numbers:
“A RWJF survey summarized in the September 14, 2009 edition of the New England Journal of Medicine shows that 62.9 percent of physicians nationwide support proposals to expand health care coverage ”
http://www.rwjf.org/healthreform/product.jsp?id=48408
All that being said, support for the public option is significantly lower than the 72% who favored the Iraq War in the beginning and I know that you think that was a great policy
Paul
September 15th, 2009
4:20 pm
jt
Okay, let’s go point by point.
How is prohibiting insurance companies from dropping people who become ill, socialism?
mike
September 15th, 2009
4:22 pm
jn –
“Reckon maybe that might be because we haven’t had a Democrat since Truman?”
? Kennedy, LBJ, Carter, Clinton and Obama don’t count?
mike
September 15th, 2009
4:25 pm
Public Option Now. –
Wow. That is a lot of effort to say “anyone who disagrees with my narrow views is a racist”.
Seems a shame to expend such effort on such a pathetic and empty statement.
josef nix
September 15th, 2009
4:25 pm
mike
“? Kennedy, LBJ, Carter, Clinton and Obama don’t count?”
If they were Democrats, then I’m the Queen of England!
Paul
September 15th, 2009
4:25 pm
mike
“Can you point to a Democrat since Truman who stood up to “fascist dictators, tyrants and thugs in any hemisphere”?”
For point of clarification, I’m guessing you mean ‘presidents’ as they are the only ones able to effect American power to stand up to others. Aside from a Congressman who introduces legislation, in which case you could cite the likes of then-Senator Biden who wanted to invade Africa to stand up to bad guys.
Okay, I’ll give it a go.
Presidents Kennedy and Johnson in Vietnam?
Next Democrat after Johnson: Clinton? Stood up to those baddies who were doing all the slaughtering in Kosovo – Bosnia – former Yugoslavia? Even the UN wanted to bow out so he drug along NATO to make it happen?
Now Obama: are pirates in this category? What about expanding the war in Afganistan? Does that count?
For all the bad peacenik rap, Democrats can be pretty willing do use the military when something ticks them off -
Kamchak
September 15th, 2009
4:26 pm
josef
Trying on royal shoes are we?
AmVet
September 15th, 2009
4:29 pm
You accused conservatives of “Coddling fascist dictators, tyrants and thugs in every hemisphere.”
mike, reread carefully this time
I said Reagan did so.
Hef
September 15th, 2009
4:29 pm
DAVO@4:05-ding,ding,ding WELL SAID!!!!
I Report/ Vast White Wing Conspirator (-: You Whine )-:
September 15th, 2009
4:30 pm
A USA TODAY/Gallup Poll taken after the president’s dramatic address to a joint session of Congress last week shows Americans almost evenly divided over passing a health care bill and inclined to think it would make some of the system’s vexing problems worse, not better.
Six in 10 say Obama’s proposal, if enacted, would not achieve his goals of expanding coverage to nearly all Americans without raising taxes on the middle class or lowering the quality of health care. For the first time, a majority disapprove of the way he’s handling health care policy.
bwa.
Maybe he could take a lesson from Reagan, hahahahahaha.
josef nix
September 15th, 2009
4:33 pm
K’chak–was about to post to you–”Imelda’s having a sale on discontinued styles!”
jt
September 15th, 2009
4:34 pm
Alright Paul-
School me.
If I sold firewood to a select group of people who paid me cash each time I delivered, and most people were happy,
but then,
A government agency holds a gun to my head and FORCEs me to give firewood to EVERYONE regardless of their ability to pay or not.,…for the general welfare,
what type of government system would that be?
mike
September 15th, 2009
4:37 pm
AmVet –
“I said Reagan did so.”
Never said you didn’t. However, by sneering at Reagan for this, you imply that some have done better, and based on your contempt for Republicans, one can only assume that you are referring to Democrats.
If you can’t point to anyone who has done better, isn’t this a pretty empty gripe?
Paul
September 15th, 2009
4:38 pm
jt
This is amazing! Not to sound insulting, but I thought answering a question with a question or saying “teach me” was the province of liberals on this blog! LOL!
Let’s try again. You provided a textbook definition of socialism.
How, according to the definition you provided, or any other definition you may care to provide (as I do not mean to presume to know how someone may define ’socialism’)
how is prohibiting insurance companies from dropping people who become ill, socialism?
(remember, take turns. You answer, then I answer, see?)
josef nix
September 15th, 2009
4:39 pm
BOSCH–see jt’s post @ 4:34, I know there’s a lesson there for you, but I just can’t seem to put my finger on what!
K’chak–Unmentionable says I’ve been trying on moccasins today!
TaxPayer
September 15th, 2009
4:40 pm
–”Imelda’s having a sale on discontinued styles!”
I don’t know about that. Don’t all styles get re-cycled every 10 or 20 twenty years or so.
Pogo
September 15th, 2009
4:43 pm
Jay, pertaining to the thread below; there is no discussion on race in this country and there never will be. It cannot happen when one group (People of color) consider themselves born victims of a crime well passed and the other group ((for you liberals and Amvet), Whitey, Crackers, rednecks, etc. etc.) pretty much think the previous group uses this to their advantage to further themselves in society and to obtain special treatment. Meanwhile the pundits, the politicians and the journalists use the word “racism” to their own benefit or to further their own idealogies and in the process they play everyone of us for a fool. They add fuel to the fire. Obamas election, which I had hoped would end some of this is having just the opposite effect. Now no-one can critisize Obama without being called a racist. Cynthia Tucker in this paper is proof positive of that. The fire just keeps on raging and it is getting worse. I fear for this country. Not because of Obama, but because the acceptance of violence and the degradation in the social behaviour of people as a whole is deteriorating by the day. There are an awful lot of angry people out here and the pressure is building.
And speaking of anger, there also seems to be an awful lot of internal anger “Vetted” here every day. What must it be like to carry a chip around the size of a boulder on your shoulder? Jay, you don’t exactly bring out the best in people, do you? Or is that what you want to do in the first place? What is YOUR agenda.
I Report/ Vast White Wing Conspirator (-: You Whine )-:
September 15th, 2009
4:44 pm
He deplores “scare tactics” but says that unless he gets his way, people will die. He praises temperate discourse but says many of his opponents are liars. He says Medicare is an exemplary program that validates government’s prowess at running health systems. But he also says Medicare is unsustainable and going broke, and that he will pay for much of his reforms by eliminating the hundreds of billions of dollars of waste and fraud in this paragon of a program, and in Medicaid. He says Congress will cut Medicare (it will not) by $500 billion—without affecting benefits.-George Will
Guess who “he” is, duh.
AmVet
September 15th, 2009
4:45 pm
“Never said you didn’t.”
No you just misquoted me. There is a difference.
mike, are you actually discounting what I said about Reagan coddling fascists? Was it not factual? Do you have some information to countermand it? I have MUCH to corroborate it.
If you can demonstrate otherwise, I’d love to see it.
Simply acknowledge it as the truth or disprove it. Then we’ll move onto your red herring concerning Democrats…
Bosch
September 15th, 2009
4:48 pm
josef,
josef nix
September 15th, 2009
4:48 pm
PAUL–answering a question with a question? How Maimonidean!
TaxPayer–on styles–seems to be the case, all right.
@@
September 15th, 2009
4:49 pm
It’s the lack of verifying cost that’s got us where we are today. So where is Obama on that little detail?
According to the CBO, he’s off in La La Land.
Midori
September 15th, 2009
4:50 pm
Here, then, are 10 Lessons for Tea Baggers:
1. President Obama Cut Your Taxes
2. The Stimulus is Working
3. First Ronald Reagan Tripled the National Debt…
4. …Then George W. Bush Doubled It Again
5. Republican States Have the Worst Health Care
6. Medicare is a Government Program
7. Barack Obama is Not a Muslim
8. Barack Obama was Born in the United States
9. 70,000 Does Not Equal 2,000,000
10. The Economy Almost Always Does Better Under Democrats
http://www.crooksandliars.com
Paul
September 15th, 2009
4:52 pm
josef nix
How Maimonidean?
I kinda liked Melanie Griffith saying (in a slow, breathy voice) ‘mamallian’ to Ed Harris in Milk Money.
Hey Bosch
Yeah, back. Didja know you can pay nearly 700 bucks for a fuel pump? And that’s without installation?
I’m about ready to follow your new car advice -
Paul
September 15th, 2009
4:53 pm
josef
Okay, okay, it’s “mammalian.”
But I was kinda distracted, remembering the scene as I was….
AmVet
September 15th, 2009
4:54 pm
Off topic,
I saw 300 last night on TBS. And it was actually pretty entertaining.
It had a definite “Gladiator” texture to it, slow motion blood splattering and gore, waving fields of wheat and softly wailing female vocals in the background.
I’m supposing it was hailed a some epic of filmdom but I’m glad I didn’t spend the whatever to see it in the cinema…
mike
September 15th, 2009
4:55 pm
Paul –
“For point of clarification, I’m guessing you mean ‘presidents’ as they are the only ones able to effect American power to stand up to others.”
Correct. Thanks for clarifying.
I appreciate the examples you provided, and I wasn’t intending to bash Democrats. I think that they tend to be as hawkish as most Republicans. I was simply pointing out that Reagan was as confrontational as any Democrat and was no more guilty of “coddling” dictators than they were.
With the exception of Carter, ever President since Truman has been pretty open to using force against dictators when it serves our interest at the time. They have all been equally capable of coddling dictators when its serves our interest, particularly during the Cold War and in Saudi Arabia today.
My point was not a knock on Democrats, but an observation that Reagan was as hawkish as any, although it is interesting that the claim originated with a guy who likes to call folks “chickenhawk”.
josef nix
September 15th, 2009
4:57 pm
PAUL–how heterosexist!
Paul
September 15th, 2009
4:58 pm
Hi Midori!
Fully recovered?
Bosch
September 15th, 2009
4:59 pm
Paul,
“Didja know you can pay nearly 700 bucks for a fuel pump? And that’s without installation?”
No, I did not know that. That sucks. Big time. Damn.
DebbieDoRight
September 15th, 2009
5:00 pm
Amvet: RE: 300 — From Sarah Silverman (my fave!) (paraphrased)
How they rated the movie was they took a poll and asked people on a scale of 1 to 15 how gay is this movie? They said 300.
Swami Dave
September 15th, 2009
5:00 pm
The reality of Reagan’s remarks are however grounded in reality and fact.
It is impossible to manufacture some benefit for one group (say: healthcare). Realize that benefit that a value that, if the current market is any measure, some group of those intended to benefit cannot or will not pay for it themselves. By declaration that it is a requirement, you have three options (neither of which can be perceived as “freedom”).
1) Government mandates that those who would enjoy the benefit are forced to buy it. Such an action would create a demand spike and cost spike, which would be the antithesis of what is currently needed.
2) Those providing the service will be required to provide it at a mandated cost that they themselves would not set as the value. As demand increases & supply does not change, prices will either rise, quality will suffer, or the pool of providers will lower to meet the acceptable market-based cost structure. This is the crux of the Reagan storyline which assumes that choice #2 is the option selected (namely: constraints and requirements on providers to serve an increasing pool of beneficiaries at a largely fixed relative cost).
3) Through either unfunded mandates, increased deficit spending, and / or increased taxes, the cost for the mandated benefits are shifted onto another group effectively making them slaves to the wants and desires of another class unwilling to provide the benefit for themselves. Most likely, Reagan never thought (incorrectly) that Americans would agree to be continually taxed into oblivion to provide the benefits for the ever-growing class of dependents all-too-happy to live & subsist off of the confiscated earnings of their fellow citizens.
Sadly, there are still thieves trying to foist onto America’s producers and achievers the obligation to fund services for the ever-growing class of dependents. Sadly, the fact that Medicare is so ingrained into our political culture is in reality that evidence of the risk that Reagan spoke of in such a visionary fashion.
By divorcing requirement to pay from the desire to consume, the dependent class, having no responsiblity to pay for what they receive, create ever-burgeoning obligations to unnamed “others” from whom they are apparently all-too-willing to actively rob. Actually, the dependency class is SO lazy in their true nature that they elect politicans to do with legislation what they are unwilling to do for themselves with guns – namely: steal that which is owned and earned by others.
Here’s a salute to this boondoggle being again relegated to the ash heap of history among the other collectivist schemes of the past!
-SD
GEORGE AMERICAN
September 15th, 2009
5:00 pm
REAGAN WAS THE GREATEST PRESIDENT EVER!!! HE WAS RIGHT THEN ABOUT MEDICARE AND THE SPREAD OF SOCIALISM
THEY DON’T MAKE GREAT AMERICANTS LIKE THE GRIPER ANYMORE!!!
THE CLOSEST THING WE HAVE TODAY IS REAGAN IN SUIT – SARAH PALIN.
QUIT PICKING ON HER AND HER RETARDED KID!!!
mike
September 15th, 2009
5:01 pm
AmVet -
See my post above. My point is that all of our Presidents coddle some dictators and confront others. It is much more a matter of interest of ideology than it it is a matter of national interest, or as you might say, corporate interests. Reagan was no more or less guilty than others. Let me know if you can think of any Presidents who didn’t “coddle” dictators.
Midori
September 15th, 2009
5:02 pm
Paul – I’m very nearly there. Thanks.
and somebody give George a valium
AmVet
September 15th, 2009
5:02 pm
DDR, that’s hysterical!
As a flaming hetero even I couldn’t help but notice how all of those Spartans were ripped! Strapping young men!
They clearly spent a lot of time in Greek gyms!!!
mike
September 15th, 2009
5:04 pm
Man, the George American/Redneck Convert parody thing is getting tedious.
Davo
September 15th, 2009
5:05 pm
Obama Hates Black People
by Kayne West
http://www.tmz.com/2009/09/15/obama-calls-kanye-a-jackass/
lol
Paul
September 15th, 2009
5:06 pm
mike
There’s a good scene (I’m on a movie riff today) in 18 Again where George Burns describes Truman and the Bomb. Professor said it was an agonizing decision. Burns (his mind, memories and experience in the body of a 19-year-old) said “Naw, it was easy. Second one, no problem. Then it became too easy. He had a problem with his watch, he wanted to bomb Switzerland.”
But we do treasure our caricatures, don’t we?
josef
It was a great scene!!!
AmVet
That movie was shot in a style to faithfully reproduce the effects of the original comic book. They did a good job – helps to understand the style.
The Xerxes makeup took about a day to put on. It was pretty accurate in many regards, even the killing of Xerxes’s emissaries at the beginning. Makes me wonder how we could handle negotiations nowadays –
I think the movie was banned in Iran. They didn’t care for the Persian portrayal – I’ll bet the mullahs went nuts when they saw Xerxes’s inner court.
Brad Steel
September 15th, 2009
5:07 pm
amazing!
is the scare-tactic the only thing conservatives have in their playbook.
BOOORRING!
hey, conservative. the 60’s called. they want their boogyman back.
Pogo
September 15th, 2009
5:08 pm
This healthcare thing will happen but it will be severly watered down and Obama will still try to claim victory and the status quo will rule again. What all of you here fail to apparently realize is this whole thing is about money. It is not about doing what is best for the people of this country. It is all about MONEY! Obama’s connections and political contributors are going to make a lot of money if Obama get’s his way with this. Obama’s connection with GE (and all of its holdings) is one of the most corrupt associations that has ever blighted the Office of the President. History will prove this correct. But I suppose the sour liberal stalwarts on this blog will brand me racist for saying this. If they opened their eyes and read something besides the NYT’s, the Daily KOS or the Huffington Post they would see this is true. George Soros, one of Obama’s main supporters, is corrupt up to his eyeballs (read into the Brazilian Offshore Drilling Deal) and he wields a huge amount of influence in this presidency. Of course, like all smart crooks, he does it in the shadows. The public is left out of it.
DoggoneGA
September 15th, 2009
5:08 pm
“You mean a fight between good people and bad people?”
Those are your words, not mine. I will not defend them…can you?
Kamchak
September 15th, 2009
5:09 pm
Bosch
UCL match day one–Chelsea 1 FC Porto 0
DoggoneGA
September 15th, 2009
5:10 pm
“And what is it with you and Palin, you cannot let a week go by with out talking about her?..”
She’s just SO good for a regular laugh…it’s hard to resist making sure everyone else has a chance to get the giggles over her latest.
Normal
September 15th, 2009
5:14 pm
mike
September 15th, 2009
3:58 pm
Normal –
Continuing the discussion as to what is civil debate…
Don’t you find it uncivil to accuse people of racism when there is no evidence other than they disagree with the policies of an African-American politician?
I’ve got to tell you. It is incredibly offensive to be accused of being a racist for expressing your opinion on domestic policy.
Mike, sorry I’m late getting back to you but I had to drive home in this mess and you know the old saying, “if you ever want an idiot on the roads in Georgia, just add water”.
Now for your question…yes, I do find it offensive, but you can only control what you do. Remember that when the other guy starts yellin’ and name callin’, you’ve won. Always remember too, that it also works the other way. You are a great debater and the few times we have locked horns, I knew I had a worthy opponent. Just keep your cool and everything will be good, OK?
DoggoneGA
September 15th, 2009
5:16 pm
“LIKE THE GRIPER ”
That one just HAS to be deliberate