A $2.3 billion fine? That’s hitting a mule with a 2×4
“WASHINGTON — Top aides in the Obama administration announced a $2.3 billion settlement on Wednesday with the pharmaceutical giant Pfizer Inc. over the company’s illegal promotion of its now-withdrawn painkiller, Bextra.
It is the largest fine ever levied for fraud in the Medicare and Medicaid programs, and Obama administration officials — criticized by Republicans on Capitol Hill for failing to crack down on fraud in the government’s health programs — sought to highlight the case by having Kathleen Sebelius, secretary of health and human services, make the announcement. The agreement also includes some promotional practices involving other Pfizer drugs — Zyvox, Geodon and Lyrica.”
The investigation was launched after John Kopchinski, a Gulf War veteran and Pfizer sales rep, went to the government to report the company was promoting Bextra illegally.
“In the Army, I was expected to protect people at all costs,” Kopchinski said in a press release issued by the law firm representing him. “At Pfizer I was expected to increase profits at all costs, even when sales meant endangering lives. I couldn’t do that.”
According to the law firm:
“The FDA approved Bextra to treat arthritis as well as menstrual pain in very limited doses. Kopchinski alleged in his qui tam lawsuit — which the government joined — that Pfizer promoted Bextra for uses and in doses that far exceeded what the FDA had approved. This put patients at risk for serious health problems such as heart attack, stroke and pulmonary embolism (blood clot in the lung). The lawsuit also said that Bextra paid doctors kickbacks in various ways to influence them to prescribe and endorse Bextra for these “off-label” uses. Bextra was withdrawn from the market in 2005.”
It should be pointed out that Kopchinski may also have had less altruistic motives. Under the federal False Claims Act, which rewards whistleblowers who report efforts to defraud the government, Kopchinski and his lawyers will be paid $51.5 million out of the settlement. Whistleblowing pays well, in other words.
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209 comments Add your comment
Hef
September 2nd, 2009
3:07 pm
Greed on top of Greed
Hef
September 2nd, 2009
3:09 pm
on top of Greed,on top of Greed,and so on & so on & so on
joe matarotz
September 2nd, 2009
3:13 pm
I’d feel better about his revelation if he turned down the money or donated it to a worthy cause. Fat chance!
Taxpayer
September 2nd, 2009
3:16 pm
That’s a trickle down in a bucket compared to what they’ve collected from we the people with that drug company welfare bill that Bush pushed on us. Yes, Bush did it.
demwit
September 2nd, 2009
3:16 pm
The Obama administration did a great job in bring charges and prosecuting this case, all since Jan 20th.
Oh wait….
Normal
September 2nd, 2009
3:18 pm
OH CRAP, Now my co-pays are going to go up!
demwit
September 2nd, 2009
3:18 pm
The company in January disclosed it would pay the $2.3 billion over allegations it had marketed the since-withdrawn anti-inflammatory drug Bextra and possibly other products for medical conditions different than their approved use. Details of the settlement weren’t available in January, however
Kent (Jay) Brockman
September 2nd, 2009
3:20 pm
Cha cha cha..
stands for decibels
September 2nd, 2009
3:21 pm
I’d feel better about his revelation if he turned down the money or donated it to a worthy cause.
I’ve no idea of Kopchinski’s personal financial situation, but generally, a whistleblower’s job prospects aren’t real good in the industry he’s just ratted out.
And who knows how much of that 51 million’s been spent already by his legal firm.
So I can’t say I share that feeling.
Angry Black Man
September 2nd, 2009
3:23 pm
Uh oh normal. We’re up the proverbial creek without a paddle huh?
Jay,
No discussion on the guy in Gwinnett who slapped the 2-year-old. I’m sure he was trying to show us how it takes a village to raise a child, or turn the other cheek, or how liberals are always giving back to the community, or something like that. I think it’s worthy of a blog entry.
Hef
September 2nd, 2009
3:25 pm
“details for the settlement were’nt available in january however” could it be Obama needed this tidbit for publicity with Health Care reform woes. If so gotta give him his props.
Doggone/GA
September 2nd, 2009
3:27 pm
“I’d feel better about his revelation if he turned down the money or donated it to a worthy cause. Fat chance!”
Baloney. He blew the whistle, he was right…he deserves the reward. He had no way of knowing the day he reported it that the fine would be so big. What if it had only been a token fine?
Taxpayer
September 2nd, 2009
3:30 pm
“In the Army, I was expected to protect people at all costs,” Kopchinski said in a press release issued by the law firm representing him. “At Pfizer I was expected to increase profits at all costs, even when sales meant endangering lives. I couldn’t do that.”
The profits must be protected. That is the first law of the corporation. All else must be sacrificed. All hail the corporation.
Mrs. Godzilla
September 2nd, 2009
3:32 pm
…as long as this doesn’t end up like the tobacco lawsuit……
joe matarotz
September 2nd, 2009
3:34 pm
Hey, Jay. I just read about the stimulus fund booddoggle on Ralp David Abernathy Boulevard. How soon can we expect to see that blogged by you?
Hef
September 2nd, 2009
3:35 pm
AGM-great mug shot
I Report/ Vast White Wing Conspirator (-: You Whine )-:
September 2nd, 2009
3:36 pm
The drug companies have added decades to people’s lives, reduced suffering for untold numbers, have been an AIDS patients best friend but, they stand in the way of unfettered goony government socialism, so yeah, let’s hate on them.
ew
Davo
September 2nd, 2009
3:37 pm
$16.33/share multiplied by 6.75 billion shares equals ‘roughly’ 110 billion dollars, minus 1 2×4 (2.3 billion)…$107 billion. Wow…brutal.
How many died? What do they get?
Too bad we don’t have any reporters on this blog.
Bosch
September 2nd, 2009
3:37 pm
Angry Black Man,
That dude definitely looks like the type to yell “Hey kid…..get off my lawn!”
Maybe it’s Andy. We haven’t heard from him today, have we? Hmmmmmm……..
Normal
September 2nd, 2009
3:38 pm
Back in ‘84, when my youngest daughter was five, a man pushed her down in a K-Mart . I really lost my cool, chased him down and after words (I called him a chicken s**t coward), he swung at me. He regretted it. Cops came, more arguing, security camera film checked…we went home. Had to take my girl to the doctors, but all in all, as they say, lessons were learned all around. Just sayin’ if that man had slapped a two year old of mine, well, I’m not as understanding as I used to be…
Bosch
September 2nd, 2009
3:38 pm
Ooops! Nevermind – there’s Andy — whew!
Angry Black Man
September 2nd, 2009
3:40 pm
You’re too funny Bosch.
Normal, if that had been the ABD, I would have been too busy trying to pull the ABW’s foot out of his a$$ to even take a swing myself.
I Report/ Vast White Wing Conspirator (-: You Whine )-:
September 2nd, 2009
3:47 pm
Wow, aren’t we so lucky to be graced with such an all knowing presence?
“Obama: Sneeze Into Your Sleeve, Not Your Hands”–CBSNews.com, Sept. 1
Mount the floor dimwits, yer idol is speaking to you, hahahaha.
Bosch
September 2nd, 2009
3:47 pm
Normal,
One time, my daughter and I were at a park, and this kid slapped my daughter really hard right across the face, and his mother did absolutely nothing – so I jerked that kid up by the shirt collar and told him….well…..nevermind.
Paul
September 2nd, 2009
3:48 pm
[[Whistleblowing pays well, in other words.]]
As well it should. Let’s not be to quick to question his motives, Jay. Consider what his lot would have been had he failed. The split was put into law to encourage people to come forth.
Anyone want to make the case we don’t need more regulations? Hint: No law to prevent something leads someone who will try something leads to behavior that causes harm leads to…. can you say ‘regulation’?
I Report/ Vast White Wing Conspirator (-: You Whine )-:
September 2nd, 2009
3:49 pm
Bosch- The idle chatter is mind numbing and a pointless exercise, see ya at the next socialist topic.
buh bye
Normal
September 2nd, 2009
3:52 pm
Whiner, Have you ever noticed that the drug companies aren’t looking for a cure to AIDS? They don’t want to cure it because there is no profit in that. They just want to sell band aids, keep them paying to prolong the life but don’t heal them. That’s where the big bucks are…just sayin’
Bosch
September 2nd, 2009
3:52 pm
Well, bye Andy.
Bosch
September 2nd, 2009
3:55 pm
Oh, well, actually bye to all – gotta go!
Normal
September 2nd, 2009
3:55 pm
Bosch, I had a simular experience. A neighbor had a kid who was the bully of the street. When we moved in, he started to pick on my girls, but after the the K-Mart incident, I had taught them basic martial arts. The kid ran home to papa, who came over to me and told me to keep my bullies under control. When I told him my bullies were girls…
well, suffice it to say, we never did get along…
Normal
September 2nd, 2009
3:57 pm
Me too, gotta head for home, the wife wants a router…gotta love a woman who wants power tools
md
September 2nd, 2009
4:10 pm
“They just want to sell band aids, keep them paying to prolong the life but don’t heal them. That’s where the big bucks are…just sayin’”
Kind of like our gov’t buying $300 hammers and $600 dollar toilet seats. It ain’t their money.
GEORGE AMERICAN
September 2nd, 2009
4:15 pm
THE USE OF A DRUG SHOULD BETWEEN A DOCTOR AND HIS PATIENT. DOCTORS ACTUALLY ARE TRAINED AND KNOW ABOUT DRUGS. THE “GOVERNEMENT” DOESN’T NO-NOTHING.
THEY SHOULD BUTT OUT OF THE FREE MARKET!!!
Jackie
September 2nd, 2009
4:20 pm
Does anyone know of any drug that has been developed that cures any disease? I can think of penicillin, polio, tuberculosis.
The National Institute of Health gives to the drug companies, by way of grants, 70% of their Research and Development dollars. New law put in place has reduced that number to 50% and allows Universities and other small companies to retain the patents on those drugs, promoting the rise in bio-tech industry across the country.
The fine levied against Pfizer is a drop in the bucket.
Jackie
September 2nd, 2009
4:23 pm
Post was not clear. Should have read “penicillin(antibiotics) for polio, tuberculosis.”
RW-(the original)
September 2nd, 2009
4:38 pm
Considering that this settlement was announced back in January and was sufficiently complete for Pfizer to take the earnings charge last year the timing of all this hype seems mighty suspicious.
Credit where due though. Good job to the Bush justice department!
Dusty
September 2nd, 2009
4:38 pm
Whether you like it or not, I REPORT is right about one thing. Almost every prescription drug on the market has been developed by Drug Companies. And many times it took years for them to develop them. Very few go as wrong as this Bextra by Phizer. Millions keep their ailments and illnesses under control with medications perfected by drug companies.
Needless to say, I am pleased that there are governmental regulations for drug companies. Since profit is the goal for most any business, it does not hurt to monitor those that affect the health of the nation.
But that is an enormous fine. Will the patients damaged by Bextra get any thing? Is our govenrment trying to lower the national debt with this fine? It seems outrageous.
Whether we realize it or not, we would be in big health trouble without the drug companies. I think they should get a fair review. One bad drug mistake does not make ALL drug companies bad. Keep that in mind.
Reform Will Happen
September 2nd, 2009
4:41 pm
Repubozos Health Care Plan:
We must protect the insurance and pharmaceutical companies at all costs. We be tryin’ to pass a crap healthcare bill that will raise insurance costs dramatically (2.5 ‘em or triple ‘em in 10 years), double your pharmaceutical costs, and penalize you a tax of 2.5% of your income if you don’t buy the jacked up private insurance. That’s the Repubozo mandatory tax on the middle class if they don’t protect the insurance company monopolies.
KT
September 2nd, 2009
4:44 pm
Nice knucklehead comment, Jay.
Let’s see. Pfizer (which makes $11 BILLION profit on $45B annual revenue) gets women with cramps, addicted to Bextra so they can increase profits, and bribes doctors to help them…?
An honorable citizen and employee, goes out on a limb, risking a billion-dollar corporation to come after him and destroy his life for telling the truth, and you think he was doing it for the money?? How many other employees inside Pfizer knew about it and took the safe way out, by keeping their mouth shut?
And he only got $51M on a $2.3 BILLION fine?? John Kopchinski should’ve gotten $100M. He only got 2% of the fine.
Maybe if we had more real investigative professional journalism, instead of lapdog stenographers, some newspaper would’ve written about this a long time ago and saved these people from a criminal drug company sucking the life out of this country and our people-in-need.
(And we’re sending military down to Columbia for drug dealers? What about the CEOs of these healthcare conglomerates that are selling us $2 drug dosages for $500, that we don’t even need?)
(Maybe I’ll wonder next time a reporter writes about poverty helplessness, healthcare incompetence, corruption in government, or military misconduct and wins a Pulitzer Prize for it, if they just did it to win a prize.)
Brad Steal
September 2nd, 2009
4:48 pm
Here here, Dusty!
Let’s get the pitable drug companies to bring back thalidomide and Vioxx by FPhFizxer. Why the fines alone would be large enough to eliminate the national debt. Because that’s the reason drug companies are fined. Pure genius.
And while we’re at it, let’s give one of the drug companies a Nobel prize for medicine, chemistry and profit.
AmVet
September 2nd, 2009
4:51 pm
“…criticized by Republicans on Capitol Hill for failing to crack down on fraud in the government’s health programs…”
What the ???
The guys who help implement the fraud? The guys who enabled the corporate criminals at every turn?
The faithful will gnash their teeth and paint efforts at justice as idiotic “hating on them”.
All I am asking for is that they be held accountable to the rule of law. IS THAT SO MUCH?
That there are not just fines, but that their are prison sentences.
That the endless and vast giveaways stop.
That they cease their control of Washington DC.
That the American people who have been locked out for too long, and that we take back own own government from the stranglehold of Pfizer, Aetna, Haliburton, Exxon Mobil, ING, General Electric ad infinitum and ad nauseum.
Why are Americans so loathe to admit that there is a long-standing corporate crime wave going on in this country?
And the fascists desires?
” – and that government of the corporations, by the corporations, for the corporations, shall not perish from the earth.”
Midori
September 2nd, 2009
4:53 pm
as soon as Jay posted this, I just knew the wingnuts would show up DEFENDING the drug company.
they never disappoint.
Reform Will Happen
September 2nd, 2009
5:02 pm
Of course new drugs come to market because of R&D, but much of it doesn’t come directly from Big Pharma–it comes from academic medicine researching for the same drugs, sometimes with grants from big pharma, and sometimes not–sometimes with grants from big US government–but of course the Repubozos don’t want any government connection with anything right? Except for wars–wars are good. Right now there are about 65000 military contractors in Afghanistan, and 56000 soldiers. Surprise surprise.
There is also a large movement afloat to try to foreclose on those grants on the grounds it may influence information distributed by teachers or bias articles in the medical literature, and without those grants a lot of research for new drugs would plumet. Recently Harvard Medical students staged a large protest, and it was revealed that their teachers weren’t paid a scintilla for their teaching duties by drug companies, and a majority of them taught for free.
In light of the ginormous profits Phizer and every other large pharmaceutical company makes per year because there is no competitive bidding in Medicare Part D, and patents are extremely long before generics can enter the market, this is not an enormous fine. And while drug companies have R&D costs, and always have had them and will have them, the amount of money they spend on marketing for outweighs their R&D expenditures by a huge multiplier.
A physician’s controlled circulation features the same expensive adds for years and years and after you’ve read the ads once or twice, you aren’t reading them again but they show up thousands of times in the journals anyway. That’s why marketing that extends expensively to the web, TV, and popular non medical gossip magazines far exceeds the R& D budget for any pharmaceutical company.
A little inside baseball on the mega-litigation John Grissom style (perfectly captured by John Grisham in King of Torts) . For years, cardiovasular side effects have been reported in nearly every type of ANSAID, some more than others to be sure like Bextra and Vioxx. One of the difficulties in these mass law suits by the Gulf Stream flying tort lawyers is that the first thing that happens is they recruit lists of thousands of perspective plaintiffs, many of whom suffered from Metabolic Syndrome (or multiple cardiac risk factors like hypertension, high cholesterol, high weight) years before the drug that they’re targeting as the bad guy was even on the market.
Right now there are thousands of websites if you google/bing “Bextra or Vioxx litigation” and the metabolic syndrome individuals flock to them by the hundreds of thousands to sign up. One of the first defense maneuvers is to get their charts and medical history in discovery and then have those charts scanned (plenty expensive) for signs of pre-existing risk factors.
DoggoneGA
September 2nd, 2009
5:04 pm
“DOCTORS ACTUALLY ARE TRAINED AND KNOW ABOUT DRUGS.”
Dream on, hon. Ever had your pharmacy tell you that the Doctor prescribed you drugs that should NOT be taken together? Ask those who have.
md
September 2nd, 2009
5:05 pm
“Why are Americans so loathe to admit that there is a long-standing corporate crime wave going on in this country?”
Maybe because many of those same Americans know their pension funds are directly related to those very same corporations.
DoggoneGA
September 2nd, 2009
5:05 pm
“Will the patients damaged by Bextra get any thing?”
Depends on whether or not the government signed away their right to sue, or not.
AmVet
September 2nd, 2009
5:07 pm
Reform Will Happen iscorrect.
Much of this research is done at PUBLIC universities – the ones you and I help pay for – and then essentially given away to the corporatists.
Where they then extort Uncle Sam into paying exorbitant, non-negotiable prices for the products they were given.
Nice little game they have going.
And your elected “leaders” helped set it all up via the dirty money form the criminals on K Street…
md
September 2nd, 2009
5:07 pm
“but of course the Repubozos don’t want any government connection with anything right? Except for wars–wars are good. Right now there are about 65000 military contractors in Afghanistan, and 56000 soldiers. Surprise surprise. ”
Silly me, I could swear the dems are currently in charge of Afghanistan.
booger
September 2nd, 2009
5:07 pm
Davo,
What you described is the total market capitalization of the company. This fine does not affect the market capital. Fines would be paid from profits. Pfizer profits in 2008 were 8.02 billion dollars.
md
September 2nd, 2009
5:11 pm
“Much of this research is done at PUBLIC universities – the ones you and I help pay for – and then essentially given away to the corporatists.”
And more often than not, funded by the corporations vs the universities. Its win win, the universities provide the education and the corporations pay for it.
AmVet
September 2nd, 2009
5:12 pm
“Maybe because many of those same Americans know their pension funds are directly related to those very same corporations.”
md, and so they too were very willing dupes in America’s economic house of cards.
Up until last September anyway.
And at least some have woken up to the rampant criminality and thievery as the crooks and swindlers on Wall Street hide behind that enormous American flag.
But obviously not that many Americans even cared about THAT wake up call! They just wanna pretend nothing really happened and that their portfolios will all just come back, thanks to the earnest efforts of the very same criminals who screwed them in the first place.
Republican & Democratic sheep….
Redneck Convert (R--and proud of it)
September 2nd, 2009
5:12 pm
Well, I might of knowed. A good drug co. that don’t have nothing in mind but helping people whip diseases makes and sells a drug that kills a few dozen people. And when they’re told to stop marketing the drug they can’t help but keep on helping people. The co. is just a sucker for sick people. Then some rat comes along and blows the whistle on them and makes millions of bucks. And the libruls on this blog think it’s good the guvmint socks a big fine to a upstanding member of Free Innerprize.
It’s no wonder our economy is in so much trouble. They let a few dozen deaths get in the way of helping alot more people than died. These libruls want to keep the eggs unbroke and eat the omelet at the same time.
Then, to top it off some librul on here wants Bookman to write about some guy that got sick of watching a kid bawl in a store and when the Mommy didn’t do nothing about it he whopped the kid upside the head a few times. The reason we got so many kids in trouble with the law in the first place is because more people didn’t step in and whop them upside the head when they got out of line. I can think of about 50 kids I know that need whopping upside the head.
People–even kids–got to take Personal Responsibility. We can’t give a kid the Death Penalty till he’s turned 17 or so, but a little whopping upside the head would do a world of good for them. You can bet your life that without it one day they’ll show up in a court and get the Death Penalty anyway.
I’m just disgusted. Have a good night everybody.
Pogo
September 2nd, 2009
5:13 pm
Let’s say a drug company made a drug and that drug had some really, really bad side effects in certain people but at the same time it could save millions from pain, suffering and in some cases certain death but the drug company decided that because of the lawsuits from the few that would suffer from the side effects they would not put the drug on the market for fear of a settlement like the one Jay is enjoying here so much. Judging from your comments here you liberatards would think that is a good thing, wouldn’t you? But what if the drug was penicillin “(which has all of the fore-described qualities)? Would you still want the drug withheld from the market? Would you then blame the drug companies for not making the drug available to the market place? Oh yes you would. That exact thing has happened before and the “Drug Companies are Monsters and Capitalist Swine” gang like the pseudo-liberal clowns here were out in full force. ONE of the big mistakes that liberals make is getting into the sack with the lawyers who feed off of both sides the issue. See how confusing this can be to you feeble brained zombies. Pathetic.
josef nix
September 2nd, 2009
5:13 pm
Fellow wins a big award from the ASCPA. After the presentation a woman walking down the street see’s him and he’s whapping a jacka** between the eyes with a 2×4. She wants to know just what the h is going on since he has just won that award. “Lady,” he says, “you don’t understand the nature of a jacka**. First you have to get his attention. So you hit him upside the head with a 2×4 and then you say, ‘now, jacka** do I have your attention?”
md
September 2nd, 2009
5:14 pm
“Fines would be paid from profits.”
Not necessarily. Fines are like taxes – an expense on the books. They could very well just raise the price of their goods a penny here and a penny there and we pay the fine – just as we pay the taxes.
N.J.
September 2nd, 2009
5:16 pm
The Bush Medicare D program was designed to bank Medicare by giving a huge amount of money to big Pharma. Before Medicare D was enacted, Medicare was solvent well into the late 2020’s early 2030’s. The legislation was crafted to strip as much money as possible from the fund and give it to large corporations and hmo’s
The most amusing thing about the Congressional Republican rant against government run health care is that they all pay the extra dollars each year that gives them the privilege of being treated in a hospital that is 100 percent government run. Bethesda Medical Center is a government hospital run totally by the United States Government. Elected officials have to pay an extra fee on top of the premiums for their federal employees health insurance to get access to Bethesda and almost all Senators and Congressmen make that choice.
An example:
In February 2003, McConnell actually went to one of those government-run institutions (where treatment is, apparently, “either delayed or denied”) for a procedure of his own. The Kentucky Republican traveled to the National Naval Medical Center in Bethesda, Maryland, to have an elective coronary artery bypass surgery after it had been revealed that he had arterial blockages.
That was August 2009. In May of 2000, McCain had surgery at the Bethesda Naval Hospital to remove a potentially lethal melanoma from his left temple.
Had McCain had the surgery in a private for profit hospital odds are pretty good he would not have lived to run for the Presidency.
Senator Kit Bond (R-Mo.) In April 2003, however, he traveled to Bethesda Naval Hospital to undergo hip replacement surgery in an attempt to alleviate degenerative arthritis in his left hip.
Senator George Voinovich In June 2003, the Ohio Republican (who is retiring from the Senate in 2010) went to Bethesda Naval Hospital to have a pacemaker installed.
The best example of this double standard, however, may be Rep. Roy Blunt, (R-Mo.) who has had two procedures done at Bethesda Naval Hospital. The first came in July 2002, when he underwent surgery to remove his left kidney. The second came a year later, when he underwent prostate surgery after being diagnosed with early-stage prostate cancer.
Not only this but the elected officials in Washington so love their government health insurance and access to government run hospitals that they have voted themselves the right to keep this insurance for life. After retirement or if they are elected out of office, they keep their “public option” and most pay to have access to that government run hospital.
Reform Will Happen
September 2nd, 2009
5:16 pm
@ Doggone–
1) Most doctors today get extensive training and have tons of high quality info about drugs and their interactions, diseases, and the latest literature at their fingertips on a device like an Iphone or a Windows phone.
2) Pharmacists do an overall great job of reiterating information that the patient didn’t quite get when they were with a doctor for a number of reasons including that they didn’t feel good or were nervous or were worried about a number of things when they saw the doctor–HOWEVER–all of us have seen pharmacists flag a drug interaction with their software or because they don’t always keep up with the latest literature that isn’t real and not borne out by large multicenter studies–so pharmacists aren’t perfect although they are a great help most of the time.
3) If you look at the list of side effects and interactions for the hundreds of drugs you have to master for day to day practice, the lists can be near endless, and some of the interactions are extremely and I mean extremely infrequent and very minor.
4) Doctors who don’t know the major side effects and interactions in this country are damn few and far between. It only takes a second to review the drug and its interactions and a tap of a finger and another tap of a finger to call up 25 extensive review articles on the drug or the disease on a phone/blackberry, any mobile device that can fit in a pocket.
Reform Will Happen
September 2nd, 2009
5:20 pm
Josef–
Do you think they dumped Gatorade or Powerade on Mike Vick’s head after his dog won?
Reform Will Happen
September 2nd, 2009
5:21 pm
Amen to NJ–his sources are always solid.
DoggoneGA
September 2nd, 2009
5:25 pm
“Most doctors today get extensive training”
Uh huh. That’s why I had to tell MY doctor which medicine to prescribe for my stomach problems, because the only one he ever prescribed didn’t agree with me. And THEN he had to go look it up.
Finn McCool
September 2nd, 2009
5:26 pm
We already have drugs for menstreal cramps and arhritis – it’s called vicodin and dilaudid.
If you can be that happy, you sure as hell aint worrying about what ails ya!
Cancer drugs, Phizer. Does the word cancer mean anything? ring a bell?
Nothing is Free
September 2nd, 2009
5:28 pm
Angry Black Man
I read what you had said waaay back to the blog from this morning. I appreciate your civility. I find that this is usually the case when discussing race with a Black person on a liberal blog. The Black person and myself can be as civil as can be, but there always seems to be white liberals who insist on screaming and yelling and trying to twist everything that is being said. Of course the obvious question is: what are they so scared of?
I suppose I didn’t make my point very clear about the racism taught to the Black Demographic, mostly from the democratically controlled media. I appreciate the fact that you were raised in a household that forbade any hate of any kind. I’m sure that has been a blessing in your life. I am from a town that simply had very few Black people. There were too few to build segregated schools so even though schools in the South were segregated while I was in elementary school, we only saw the integration on TV. We were already segregated. But I don’t ever remember being in a class with a Black person.
I actually saw more Black people in our kitchen eating than I ever saw in school. My Grandaddy, who lived with us would go down to the railroad tracks and gather up a few hobos and invite them up to the house for a meal. Many of those vagabonds were Black. All of the hobos were always nice and cordial. It drove my Mom crazy because we never had much food, but she always seemed to be able to produce a huge pot of pinto beans and a big piece of homemade cornbread. I think I would give about a thousand bucks for a plate of her pinto beans and cornbread.
So it wasn’t that hate wasn’t permitted. We just never really thought about it.
I watched Daddys Little Girl, the other night. My wife had been wanting to see it. There’s a line it it where the father’s girlfriend is being introduced to the little girls. I don’t remember the woman’s name, but the response from one of the little girl’s was “that’s a white girl’s name”, meaning it as an insult. That’s not a big deal, but we started noticing that there was not a white person in the entire movie that was not a despicable person. The main character was sent to prison for being accused of raping a white girl, by that white girl. I have found that to be the case in a lot of Afrocentric entertainment. This isn’t new. Every White person that the Jeffersons encountered were either complete imbeciles or very bad people.
That’s what I am talking about.
And yes, that is often the the case with more mainstream entertainment. It’s the Black drug dealer. It’s the Black prostitute. It’s the Black pimp that is beating up the prostitute.
But the media is controlled by Hollywood, a bastion of liberalism.
Sometimes when you have the time, and we can ignore the screamers on here, I would love to talk to you about why so many Black people are so incredibly dedicated to the Democratic Party. After watching what Democrats have done to Black people my entire life, I guess I just don’t get it. I just can’t imagine why any Black person would ever support any Democrat . . . ever.
Dusty
September 2nd, 2009
5:28 pm
Brad Steale 4:43
You need to review your facts. Thalidomide was produced as a drug in GERMANY. FDA (that’s American) refused to approve of its sale in the USA. Only 17 American women out of thousands of women were affected (Probably got their drugs overseas.). When you go to accuse, please check the facts first.
Later…..company coming for dinner.
josef nix
September 2nd, 2009
5:29 pm
md
“Maybe because many of those same Americans know their pension funds are directly related to those very same corporations.”
A good point you bring up here. A lot of those getting all in a dither of rightous indignation suffer from the same convenience of knowledge. Even those among us who make the attempt to put our money where our mouth is wind up after reading through the “subsidiary of” corporate genealogies coming to the conclusion that the only palce half-way true to our beliefs we can put our shekels is under the mattress.
Finn McCool
September 2nd, 2009
5:30 pm
“Obama: Sneeze Into Your Sleeve, Not Your Hands”–CBSNews.com, Sept. 1
Actually, that’s kinda useful info. I suppose you would prefer the President speak about putting “food on our families”?
At least one of those is meant to stop the spread of disease. ohh, wait, you’re a republican. maybe you want some “abstinence sneezing” instead??
I Report/ Vast White Wing Conspirator (-: You Whine )-:
September 2nd, 2009
5:31 pm
as soon as Jay posted this, I just knew the wingnuts would show up DEFENDING the drug company.
diM- Maybe it’s because the drug companies are not the enemy.
I vaguely remember a phrase that most normal people bandy about on occasion; the miracles of modern medicine.
I suppose you think the dimocrat majority in Congress brought about all these life giving wonders?
The “president” of the United States, in six short months, has caused more harm to the American people than every single one of the MISTAKES that Pfizer has ever had combined.
I missed the part where you denounced Obozo.
Or how about trial lawyers and ambulance chasers, why nary a coarse word for their conduct from the Pinko Nation?
Anybody else wanna guess at what it cost the American consumer for all of the slip and falls and rear end collisions, that trial lawyers greedily jumped at becoming a part of, so they could sue for large “damage” awards?
How about minor collisions on Marta buses, where the entire load of passengers collapses onto the pavement, writhing in greed?
You think the trial lawyers don’t have a clue about the criminal mischief being perpetrated?
And could easily put a stop to it?
You libs have absolutely no right whatsoever to accuse industries that AREN’T IN YOUR POCKETS WITH KAMPAIGN DONATIONS of the nasty things that you make up about them.
It’s really sick, in a way.
I Report/ Vast White Wing Conspirator (-: You Whine )-:
September 2nd, 2009
5:33 pm
Finn McFool- No, actually, with me being a Conservative and all, I already know enough not to be a nasty ass, unlike you liberals, apparently.
DoggoneGA
September 2nd, 2009
5:35 pm
“I already know enough not to be a nasty ass, unlike you liberals, apparently.”
Do you HAVE to prove your statement a lie before you even finish the SENTENCE?
Brad Steel
September 2nd, 2009
5:36 pm
Dusty,
Your grasp of the sarcastic is refreshingly predictable.
It was our government, the FDA, that prevented drug companies from maiming Americans. Thank god for that unfettered free market that is the cure for all ills!
What’s that conservative rallying cry? Let’s keep the government out of healthcare!
Nothing is Free
September 2nd, 2009
5:37 pm
Drug companies are the enemy.
Insurance Companies are the enemy,
FOX News is the enemy.
The CIA is the enemy.
Dick Cheney is the enemy.
The people who come to the tea parties are the enemy.
The oil companies are the enemy.
Small business is the enemy.
The rich are the enemy.
Anyone who points out that past despots who made enemies out of everything and everybody, usually turned out to be some of the most evil people are earth, are the enemy.
Did I miss anything?
Reform Will Happen
September 2nd, 2009
5:38 pm
Doggone–
When you have completed residency and med school and practiced several years, I think you’re persepctive would be a bit more enlightened. My doctor friends who went to law school either before or after med school are.
First of all I don’t know what you mean by “stomach problems” and it’s none of my business, but there are a wide variety of choices for some of the most common abdominal problems which is usually what a patient means when he talks about “stomach problems.” A few of the most common abdominal problems are irritable bowel syndrome, ulcer, esophageal spasm. For all of them there are a wide variety of the same types of drugs that target the same symptoms or diseases causing those symptoms.
It’s impossible for anyone including a doctor to guess until you try a particular drug how it’s going to do with a particular patient in terms of efficacy and side effects. And if you take all classes of drugs, that’s especially true. You don’t know how well for example a Type II Diabetic is going to be controlled by a particular med or combo until you give it a chance and monitor sugars and Hb1AC and there are a lot of choices out there, not to mention that in about 3-5 years there will be a dramatic paradigm shift in how we treat Diabetes.
When you launch an antidepressant, none of them are cheap, and for many of them it takes an average of a minimum of 10-12 days to 3 weeks to know if they have efficacy. It’ be great if you could haul off and look at a paitent and predict how a particular drug will work.
If you mean history is important, or what the patient tells you about what “worked and didn’t.”, absolutely it is, but patients get confused about what they took and some of them come from out of town or somewhere else without charts handy.
As to looking up something, I don’t know any doctor who carries every single dosage or fact about a drug or anything else in their head. We try hard, but there are so many meds for say hypertension now that you can choose from and so many reasons to choose a particular combination or not to, that you have to pull them all from a computer somewhere in your brain and make the best decision possible.
And in one of your posts you referenced a side effect or an interaction. There are times, not infrequent when you have to weigh th
DoggoneGA
September 2nd, 2009
5:42 pm
You left something out of your list:
Drug companies are the enemy – when they advise using drugs for reasons for which those drugs have not been approve
Insurance Companies are the enemy – when they drop people for getting too sick
FOX News is the enemy – when they lie and make up things
The CIA is the enemy – when they lie and make up things
Dick Cheney is the enemy – yes
The people who come to the tea parties are the enemy – when they refuse to educate themselves and pass on lies
The oil companies are the enemy – when they artificially raise prices, and hold up legitimate pollution cases with appeal after appeal after appeal
Small business is the enemy – who said that?
The rich are the enemy – when they work to return the world to the days of the “robber barons” so they can get richer and richer, on the backs of their hardworking employees
I Report/ Vast White Wing Conspirator (-: You Whine )-:
September 2nd, 2009
5:44 pm
Duhggone, lobotomy expert- Considering that Obozo is an illiterate surrounded by a team of morons, I am not surprised at all to hear you defending such a blatantly stupid suggestion as the one our “president” made.
Is this y’all’s idea and grand strategy of “informing” the American people of Obozo’s “previously undisclosed” health care plan?
I sure hope it is, hahahahaha.
md
September 2nd, 2009
5:45 pm
Jo,
Not to mention all the union pensions. Many on the left demonize corporations not even knowing which ones are being held by their very own union.
Whats truly sad, is we are corporations and we need them to do well. The corporations are the economy and for the moment our retirments.
josef nix
September 2nd, 2009
5:46 pm
Reform
“Do you think they dumped Gatorade or Powerade on Mike Vick’s head after his dog won?”
Doggone et al.– Like many, if not most, of us, I will join in a round or two of bashing of the medical profession, but I’ve been happy to see one on more than one occasion when I’ve been given a ticket to the great beyond. This is a medical profession household and we are from families long associated with the profession/calling. I’ve known plenty of them on a first name basis. It has been my experience that of the ones I have known, they are highly trained, skilled and resposible individuals who, like the rest of us, are not above making a buck or two, some with better moral compasses than others. Why the kindness here? Well, I’ve got a check-up scheduled for tomorrow and am courting karma!
DoggoneGA
September 2nd, 2009
5:49 pm
“When you have completed residency and med school and practiced several years, I think you’re persepctive would be a bit more enlightened”
When you have to explain to a Doctor how to reduce a simple dislocated toe…because he doesn’t know HOW and wants to send you to a specialis; when you go to a Podiatrist about your foot pain and he asks “What do you want me to do?”; when you have a rash (incidental to something else) that you told the Doctor started after you changed laundry detergent and the Doctor has a biopsy done to test you for Scarlet Fever and you have an allergy to the new detergent; when you fix your feet YOURSELF with an ayurvedic treatment; when you are allergic to a medicine and the Doctor gives you an injection ANYWAY and it makes you violently sick…then get back to me about Doctors.
I trust Doctors only slightly more than I do the government…and mostly only go to one because I can’t get the medicine for my stomach without a prescription. I certainly don’t put them up on a pedestal just because they have a more expensive education than I had.
Angry Black Man
September 2nd, 2009
5:53 pm
NIF
I believe one of the main reasons that Blacks often seem to show blind support to Dems is because of the 60’s. In the early 60’s the Southern Dems were adamantly opposed to integration. Around the time integration was signed into law, the Dixiecrats switched parties and joined the Republican party. Many of the older people have never forgotten that. When you see the Repubs represented often by people who are in the age range of those who would have switched, I think it’s more of a reaction to that time.
Over the years, Dems just became the norm for blacks to flock to. The mere fact that Dems propose to help lift Black people up versus the image from Repubs that they could care less about anyone from the “hood” also plays a part. There are good people and bad people in both parties, but appearances can mean a lot. The Dems have the upper hand on appearing to give a d@mn.
I may not be right, but that’s just my opinion. I personally don’t care for either party because I don’t feel that either one has done any good for blacks.
I Report/ Vast White Wing Conspirator (-: You Whine )-:
September 2nd, 2009
5:55 pm
In a letter to The Daily Telegraph, a group of experts who care for the terminally ill claim that some patients are being wrongly judged as close to death.
Under NHS guidance introduced across England to help doctors and medical staff deal with dying patients, they can then have fluid and drugs withdrawn and many are put on continuous sedation until they pass away.
Duh, you reckon?
What do you think the libs want?
josef nix
September 2nd, 2009
5:56 pm
Nothing is Free
You left out the ragpickers.
Doggone and Nothing is Free…
“Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?” Juvenal
DoggoneGA
September 2nd, 2009
5:59 pm
“I am not surprised at all to hear you defending such a blatantly stupid suggestion as the one our “president” made.”
Hmmm..I’d say you ought to be SHOCKED, since I did no such thing and have made no comment whatsoever about anything the President has said. Of course, I *did* call you out on our lie – so I guess you just HAD to prove me correct by lying yet again.
Have I told you lately how sweet you are?
getalife
September 2nd, 2009
6:00 pm
A slap on the wrist but Lryica is pretty good stuff mixed with opiates.
Angry Black Man
September 2nd, 2009
6:01 pm
NIF
On the hollywood thing. They only put out what people are willing to pay for. That’s why I quit going to the movies. Most of what I own on dvd are older movies or animated movies. People said the same thing about Spike Lee movies, but if you really pay attention to his, he’s always trying to spark dialogue about discrimination. Most of the time it’s not well received, but he tries. I believe the portrayals of whites in the black movies are only mirror images of what’s done by mainstream hollywood. The simple way to stop it, is to quit purchasing the product. The Military Channel, Discovery channel, and Nat Geo are my favorite channels. I’ll still watch my sports and wrestling, but I stay away from most of the stuff on tv.
josef nix
September 2nd, 2009
6:07 pm
ABM–I am old enough to remember the time in Mississippi when those few blacks who were not disenfranchised voted Republican down the line, themselves of an age, time and place where the GOP was the Party of Lincoln. My own Granny was a die-hard, yellow dog Democrat, the Party of Woodrow Wilson having given her as a woman the right to vote.
While I doubt I’ll be voting for the GOP anytime soon, on MY issue, DADT etc., they are showing themselves, as you put it “to have the upper hand.” During the last election, the Unmentionable said that he was going to have a hard time NOT pulling the lever for John McCain given his outstanding record of concern for Indian issues.
DoggoneGA
September 2nd, 2009
6:11 pm
“Quis custodiet ipsos custodes”
God?
josef nix
September 2nd, 2009
6:12 pm
ABM–talking about Hollywood. A lot of people raise an eyebrow when I say the best movie I have seen in years was “Waiting to Exhale.” Why? Because the story was a universal one and one of the very few “black” films where the color of those telling the tale was totally not at issue. It was only after the film was over and done with did I “realize” this…
josef nix
September 2nd, 2009
6:13 pm
Doggone–
“God?”
Point taken.
RW-(the original)
September 2nd, 2009
6:15 pm
On the hollywood thing. They only put out what people are willing to pay for.
ABM,
You sure about that? Movie after movie after movie kept coming out with some angle to denigrate the Iraq war effort and they kept flopping, but they kept coming out.
Taxpayer
September 2nd, 2009
6:17 pm
Given all these warm and cozy feelings toward the pharma’s from the right wing nutter butters, I take it that none of you will have any problems with Obama pulling a “Bush” and cozying up to them. And, if we need to say, raise taxes to pay for the drug company welfare program, all of you will also be on board with that as well. Or, we could just trim a few more F-22s to cover the tab. How ’bout it. Further, I am most certainly feeling so much better now that I’m hearing words of praise from the right wingers regarding regulations applied to businesses that affect we the people. Thank you. Thank you ever so much.
Eddy
September 2nd, 2009
6:21 pm
The next time you or a family member needs an antibiotic, chemo or a drug to relieve arthritis pain, tell them to just rub some dirt on it and it’ll be ok. Those evil drug companies will just sell you anything to make a profit, you know. Too bad there isn’t a vaccine for stupidity.
AmVet
September 2nd, 2009
6:31 pm
And the next time your younger sister is suffering from unspeakable pain to the fatal cancer that is eating up her body and the pharmaceuticals provide little if any real relief, tell her that those corporations have helped ensured she can’t smoke/ingest the one drug that is more effective than all of their laboratory voodoo and it’s a weed that grows in the wild. Those evil drug companies will keep you from using anything they don’t control just to make a profit, you know.
I know of what I speak.
Too bad there isn’t a vaccine for immorality.
josef nix
September 2nd, 2009
6:34 pm
AmVet–my mama died of cancer and was grateful to have access.
DoggoneGA
September 2nd, 2009
6:35 pm
“Those evil drug companies will just sell you anything to make a profit, you know.”
So I guess we can take it that you trust them implicitly?
Reform Will Happen
September 2nd, 2009
6:37 pm
@ Doggone–
I hope your abdominal symptom/disease is better.
“Most doctors today get extensive training”
Uh huh. That’s why I had to tell MY doctor which medicine to prescribe for my stomach problems, because the only one he ever prescribed didn’t agree with me. And THEN he had to go look it up.
Maybe you mean that you helped your doctor with YOUR particular history with some drugs for your ailment. Nothing wrong with that. I don’t think there are many of us if any of us, that would need you to help us with Rx’s–helping with history is appropriate. If you believe your physician was poorly trained, I don’t. If you believe your physician had an extensive memory lapse, I don’t.
“And then he had to go look it up.” I don’t know what he or she went to look up. If he went to look up a dosage or side effects, maybe it’s for a lot of reasons–all of them good. Maybe he was juggling hundreds of meds in his head like most of us and wanted to check on the dosage or a side effect or an interaction, with something else you were on. If you believe every doctor that walks the face of the earth has ever drug dosage or interaction or side effect down, or every fact down, or every disease down perfectly, that’s just not reality. Now that info is a click or a tap away on an Iphone I frequently show things to patients to re-enforce a point and I’m glad to do that.
I don’t know what the medicine was or what you really mean, but your implication doesn’t describe the bellshaped or 99.999999999999999999% of physicians.
You really believe your doctor looked something up because he was somehow learning deprived? I don’t.
So your experienced clinical assessment is “most doctors get little or no training–they just make it up correct?” In your profession did you go to 4 years of specialty school and then do six years or residencey and need another 10 or so years of clinical practice before you had a good handle on what you were doing? I doubt it.
,
You really believe that without you, your doctor could not have figured out what to Rx for whatever your undefined abdominal problem or problems were? Because the competence level is pretty high across the board in my experience. And for the time it now takes given all of the things you have to do per day/night, there are a lot easier less time consuming ways to make a better living.
There are often times when you have to weigh the side effect instance and interaction instance and the particular consequence of that interaction versus the benefit of every possible choice you have.
And with increasing frequency you have to sometimes fight with private insurance, HMO, PPO, or Medicare and Medicaid if you took it (most don’t because it doesn’t reimburse your cost of labs) to get to use the drug that will be the most benefit to your patient with the least side effects and interactions.
If your someone who loves medicine because you can keep up and use cutting edge drugs, you don’t always have them on the particular formulary that you have to conform to and while you can often win the battle (always worthwhile to use that drug in your patient) it is time consuming and often that drug should have been on the formulary in the first place.
Back when Merck first launched Mevacor on the market, which was the first “statin” in 1987, before we got a list of many selective and more powerful statin drugs and combos to the statin drugs, many of us had to make repeat calls to get the okay to use it with some drug plans, insurance companies, HMOs, and PPOs. Compared to the alternatives that weren’t HMG Co-A reductase inhibitors that had 30% explosive diarrhea or abdominal cramping, and a plethora of other side effects and were less effective in most patients, there was a very compelling reason to want to use the then new “statin” on your patients who needed lipid lowering.
All drugs have a number of potential side effects and for the bell shaped curve of drugs the common side effects are fortunately in the 4-6% range, but some are higher. You can’t guess that an ACE inhibitor is going to cause coughing (7-12%) or itching until you try it in an individual.
Finn McCool
September 2nd, 2009
6:40 pm
I Report:
There are others in this country who are not like you. Try talking to them and stop lying to them. That is how you win people back to your side. Treat them like adults.
I know 8 years has you out of habit, but just try speaking honestly to them for a while. You will win in the end.
Angry Black Man
September 2nd, 2009
6:48 pm
Josef
Sometimes the perception is all it takes. Note that I did say sometimes.
DoggoneGA
September 2nd, 2009
6:50 pm
“I hope your abdominal symptom/disease is better”
Thank you…but before you get into another long, involved discourse on Doctors, all those things I listed were each one a DIFFERENT Doctor over the course of about 20 years. Doctors have their uses, and I’m not stubborn enough to not go if I need their services…but I stopped trusting them to know what they are talking about a LONG time ago.
I forgot my latest: I had an episode a couple of years ago that kept me out of work for a week…and it was SCARY. I could, for instance, sit at my computer and look at my keyboard and know perfectly well what I wanted to type, but my fingers simply would NOT go where they were supposed to go. On the third day, I went to my Doctor, and THAT scared me too…because I’m only about 10 minutes away from his office and I almost fell dead asleep on the way.
He prescribed a lot of tests, up to and including an MRI – which then went to a specialist for evaluation. When my Doctor got back the results, he told me they indicated I had MS and he got me an appointment with a neurologist.
Now, I wish I could have that neurologist as my primary care Doctor, because HIM I could trust. He was only JUST short of disgusted with my Doctor for telling me I had MS. He SHOWED me the MRI report and it was a long, long paragraph of possible issues…of which MS was only one, and WAY down the “list”
When the neurologist started to take my history and found that I had had bad migraines in the past, but had not had one for 10 years…he told me my symptoms were something he saw quite often in “ex” migraine sufferers and that it was probably a “migraine without the pain” – which I had never heard of before that.
Now, I don’t expect my primary care Doctor to know THAT…but I think it was unconscionable of him to pick out MS from that report as if it was the ONLY thing on it. And then, even after he was informed it was NOT MS, about 6 months later he asked me how my MS TREATMENTS were going.
So if you’re trying to “educate” me about Doctors, don’t waste your energy and time. My experiences are against you.
Soothsayer
September 2nd, 2009
6:51 pm
They should have used my law firm: Cheatham, Cumming & Goen! Or my buddies’ law firm: Rollin & Doe!
Angry Black Man
September 2nd, 2009
6:53 pm
RW
It’s basic consumerism. It may not be much, but somebody’s buying. It may even be family and friends trying to make the director feel good.
Josef
That was a good movie. There are few films like that though.
DoggoneGA
September 2nd, 2009
6:54 pm
Soothsayer…or Dewey, Cheatham, and Howe
md
September 2nd, 2009
6:55 pm
“Sometimes the perception is all it takes.”
And many times perception IS reality.