What’s really at stake in the health-care fight

Nicholas Lemann, writing at The New Yorker, has a nice piece on the larger stakes involved in the health care fight. Even conservatives may find themselves agreeing with a lot of the analysis if not the sentiment. But I was struck by this paragraph near the end, in which Lemann summarized the potential impact in realistic terms:

“If a health-care bill passes this fall, it will be full of compromises: departures from liberal ideals, and fudges about how much it will cost. But anybody who stops fighting for it now is going to spend years repenting. As long as Congress passes, and Obama signs, a law that embodies the principle of universal, government-guaranteed coverage, the country will have achieved an enormous, and previously elusive, advance.”

That’s really what this is all about, for all sides in the debate. The details of the bill matter less than the national commitment it would represent.

169 comments Add your comment

Scooter

August 31st, 2009
5:15 pm

Truth

August 31st, 2009
5:17 pm

“The details of the bill matter less than the national commitment it would represent.”

That is so wrong, Jay. I can’t believe than even someone with your thought process would agree with that. That statement makes me worry even more about our country.

Scooter

August 31st, 2009
5:18 pm

I Report/ Vast White Wing Conspirator (-: You Whine )-:

August 31st, 2009
5:20 pm

Commitment to what? Socialism?

josef nix

August 31st, 2009
5:20 pm

SCOOTER–and the first shall be last!

Scooter

August 31st, 2009
5:22 pm

Jay, I think Truth is right. We need to get it right the first time (if there is such a thing)

booger

August 31st, 2009
5:23 pm

What’s it gonna cost and who will pay. Until someone can answer that, it’s gonna be an uphill battle.

I Report/ Vast White Wing Conspirator (-: You Whine )-:

August 31st, 2009
5:23 pm

A commitment to failure for everyone, like the Post Office or AmTrak?

Davo

August 31st, 2009
5:23 pm

“….the country will have achieved an enormous, and previously elusive, advance.”

In becoming a vassal of China? No thanks.

Scooter

August 31st, 2009
5:26 pm

josef, I don’t have to worry about being the last.I am drinking beer tonight!

RW-(the original)

August 31st, 2009
5:27 pm

How credible is somebody that writes the following?

from Rachel Maddow, on the left, to Peggy Noonan, on the right

josef nix

August 31st, 2009
5:28 pm

“That’s really what this is all about, for all sides in the debate. The details of the bill matter less than the national commitment it would represent. ”

The devil is in the details, so let’s just go ahead and open the door and welcome him in. Why not let’s commit to free, universal care instead of some half a**ed bull sh*t?

I Report/ Vast White Wing Conspirator (-: You Whine )-:

August 31st, 2009
5:31 pm

Look at this koward blaming Bush, of course-

White House Spokesman Uses Phrase “War On Terror”

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/2009/08/31/white_house_spokesman_uses_phrase_war_on_terror.html

Funny, I don’t remember Bush turning Afghanistan into a quagmire, like your boy obozo has.

N.J.

August 31st, 2009
5:31 pm

Private, employer paid for, defined benefit health care, has no more than ten years of life. If it is left in the hands of the private sector, it will turn into what pensions have turned into. After a lifetime working for the company, the average worker will see 20 or 30 thousand dollars in their retirement accounts because of the way the math of contributing to them is figured so that the employers matching contributions are limited. This is about what the average America earning the median lifetime average salary gets since the legislative destruction of “defined pension” plans. Businesses were able to get away with not putting away enough money to support these pensions in order to make more profits to fund shareholder dividends and executive compensation. Most of the companies that eliminated defined pensions became hugely profitable, far in excess of anything they were paying out in pensions.

Without health care reform, expect the same in the near future. Employer after employer will actually start dropping health insurance and start putting “matching funds” into a medical savings account, from which the employee is supposed to go out onto the private market to buy health insurance. Of course this fund will not come close to covering the actual cost of buying insurance as an individual on the private market.

This is obvious, The first thing that businesses have scaled back on is providing health insurance for retirees who used to work for them. Employees who worked for companies for decades, part of the deal being that they would keep their employer based health insurance after they retired, have seen those benefits scaled back or completely eliminated. Next will come the average employee. The benefits have been scaled back, and eventually they will vanish.

It happened quite fast. In 1988 66 percent of all companies with more than 200 employees provided retirement health benefits for their employees. By 2006 this was down to 35 percent of all companies with more than 200 employees. This isn’t the government. It is the private sector. And even though the employees had contracts with their employers which gave them these retirement benefits, the courts have always fallen down on the side of the companies, rather than the employees.

DoggoneGA

August 31st, 2009
5:31 pm

“What’s it gonna cost and who will pay. Until someone can answer that, it’s gonna be an uphill battle”

Do something, or do nothing…it’s gonna cost either way. And we’ll all pay, either way.

Scooter

August 31st, 2009
5:32 pm

booger

August 31st, 2009
5:23 pm
What’s it gonna cost and who will pay. Until someone can answer that, it’s gonna be an uphill battle
That is the multi-trillion dollar question ain’t it?

Kamchak

August 31st, 2009
5:34 pm

The devil will be in the details of a compromise bill.

AmVet

August 31st, 2009
5:35 pm

“…some half a**ed bull sh*t?”

Right you are.

Hell they could passed this watered down tripe back in 1994 but the conned went ballistic so as to keep their masters in the health insurance industry and BIG pharma happy.

15 years on and they still want to do zip, zero, zilch, nada, nothing, nilch.

But the American people are FINALLY so repulsed with these screw ups and frauds in the GOP that they’ve essentially kicked the lot(t) of them to the political curb.

And now they can’t get away with being such obvious a**holes.

Single-payer now.

md

August 31st, 2009
5:36 pm

Jo,

“Why not let’s commit to free, universal care instead of some half a**ed bull sh*t?”

Now you know darn well nothing is ever “free”.

I find it amazing that a bankrupt country is even discussing adding more to an already maxed out credit card. I guess this last crisis wasn’t really an eye opener after all.

DoggoneGA

August 31st, 2009
5:36 pm

“That is the multi-trillion dollar question ain’t it?”

No, it isn’t. The trillion dollar question is: What’s it gonna cost and who will pay if we do NOTHING.

I Report/ Vast White Wing Conspirator (-: You Whine )-:

August 31st, 2009
5:37 pm

Howard Dean: Democrats Left Tort Reform Out of Health Care Bill Because They Feared ‘Taking On’ Trial Lawyers

What a noble cause.

Such “commitment.”

josef nix

August 31st, 2009
5:42 pm

K’Chak…

“The devil will be in the details of a compromise bill.”

Won’t he just!

Who’ll pay?

Our children and their children, of course, but if we’re going to bail out the incompetent to the tune of numbers with limitless zeros, what’s a few more? The sins of the fathers of THIS generation have already been visited unto the third and fourth generation, what’s a few more?

Scooter…see your twelve zeros and raise you three…

Normal

August 31st, 2009
5:42 pm

Definitions of compromise

1. [n] – an accommodation in which both sides make concessions

2. [n] – a middle way between two extremes

3. [v] – expose or make liable to danger, suspicion, or disrepute

4. [v] – make a compromise

5. [v] – settle by concession

The above is the only way we will see a health bill. Compromise now and adjust as needed.

Paul

August 31st, 2009
5:44 pm

[[The details of the bill matter less than the national commitment it would represent.]]

And if Progressives and Blue Dogs could just figure that out they could pass it.

But they haven’t.

oh, did I mention it’s the Republicans who won’t let it happen? //sarc//

md

August 31st, 2009
5:45 pm

Democrat Definitions of compromise:

Enlisting 2 republican senators from liberal new england states.

Scooter

August 31st, 2009
5:45 pm

Doggone, the middle class is going to pay for it no matter what happens.Some things just never change!

Davo

August 31st, 2009
5:45 pm

AmVet
“…but the conned went ballistic so as to keep their masters in the health insurance industry and BIG pharma happy.”

Obama is no different. He’s already sold out to big pharma. Don’t believe me…I heard it from Bill Moyers of all people.

md

“I find it amazing that a bankrupt country is even discussing adding more to an already maxed out credit card. I guess this last crisis wasn’t really an eye opener after all.”

I think it’s just plain evil. The liberals are selling out our children and the future of our country to garner more power.

josef nix

August 31st, 2009
5:46 pm

md –
“nothing is ever free…”

Agreed, but where is our sense of morality in all this? We maxed the card in the corporate wh-rehouse…it’s all a matter of priorities and we see where Fierce Advocate and Company’s priorities are…

Paul

August 31st, 2009
5:47 pm

[[“The devil will be in the details of a compromise bill.”]]

Lessee, they got out, what, a 1,000 page bill (did that include the 300 page amendment?) in blazingly fast speed. Yet the people who supposedly wrote it never read it.

Did we ever figure out just who it was who wrote the Democrat’s proposals?!?? Heck, all the Dems have to do is go back to the source and tell’em to write a compromise. Based on their initial writing, it oughta take’em all o three hours -

booger

August 31st, 2009
5:49 pm

Doggone,

I know what I pay now. You may be comfortable with a blank check, but as one who may end up footing the bill, I am not.

DoggoneGA

August 31st, 2009
5:50 pm

“Enlisting 2 republican senators from liberal new england states”

Whatever it takes…as long as it’s not illegal, immoral or fattening

josef nix

August 31st, 2009
5:51 pm

Normal…

“Compromise now and adjust as needed.”

I disagree. Usually I’m with you on compromise, but not here. Free universal care. Period. Kaput. Done with. Any compromise there should be on how to pay for it, but that basic principal is not negotiabl. No way. No how.

PAUL
“oh, did I mention it’s the Republicans who won’t let it happen? //sarc//”

Them and the ragpickers.

DoggoneGA

August 31st, 2009
5:51 pm

“You may be comfortable with a blank check, but as one who may end up footing the bill, I am not.”

Well be prepared to be less comfortable then, because it’s a blank check either way.

md

August 31st, 2009
5:53 pm

“Lessee, they got out, what, a 1,000 page bill (did that include the 300 page amendment?) in blazingly fast speed. Yet the people who supposedly wrote it never read it.”

Thats because it was written 40 years ago and put in the demo vault to be wipped out when the time was “right”. Already 10 trillion in the hole – lets buy a new car! (or program).

DoggoneGA

August 31st, 2009
5:53 pm

“Doggone, the middle class is going to pay for it no matter what happens.”

That’s right…and as long as I’m going to have to pay regardless, I’d feel better about paying to help ALL Americans.

AmVet

August 31st, 2009
5:53 pm

Davo, Ralph Nader asked “Is Obama going to be an Uncle Sam for the people or an Uncle Tom for the corporations?”

And not just the easily offended left but ironically the ever concerned about the little people right-wingers, were also aghast.

I felt it was a valid question.

Then and now…

N.J.

August 31st, 2009
5:53 pm

The total cost of health care could be reduced by 1.2 trillion dollars and increase health access rather than reduce it by simply removing every element that has no part in actually providing health care from the system. That is the insurance industry. They do not in any way, shape or form contribute to the health care of a single individual by actually doing anything related to the practice of medicine.
The reason that France, and Germany can do so without rationing health care and even increasing health access at a lower cost is simply by getting rid of the insurance companies or limiting the role they play in health care. No one in Germany or France needs to get pre-authorization for anything. No waiting for anything. Not for a doctors appointment, not for a hospital visit. No medical treatments that doctors prescribe for the patients can be denied. Not by the government. Not by the insurance companies.

The 30 percent that administration costs is rather an underestimate. By the time you get executive benefits, shareholder profits, direct managerial administrative costs, indirect administrative costs, etc, you are looking at about fifty percent of that 2.5 trillion. The minute that health insurance companies were legally allowed to become for profit organizations, the genie was let out of the bottle. Before this, health care costs did not increase anywhere near what they did afterwards.

The fact remains that in all countries that have some form of universal health care aside from the few that Republicans choose to focus on, there is better health care, more health care, more access to health care, and no gatekeeper. No one can deny a claim in these countries and a long wait would be considered to get a doctors appointment would be two days.

In the United States only 30 percent of all people calling to get a PRIMARY CARE appointment the next day will get it. In France and Germany more than fifty percent can get a next day appointment. The figures for two days is a staggeringly high 95 percent.

In the U.S. you don’t even come close. Average wait in a large city for a primary care appointment is over two months. One month on average for the entire country.

That is the only person who decides what is going to be paid for by the insurance company is your doctor. The industry at the very least is regulated so that they do not have the slightest control over what will be paid for.

RW-(the original)

August 31st, 2009
5:54 pm

Did we ever figure out just who it was who wrote the Democrat’s proposals?!??

Harry Truman and it gets pulled out the drawer to gain new fingerprints every few years.

I Report/ Vast White Wing Conspirator (-: You Whine )-:

August 31st, 2009
5:55 pm

The latest figures show 242 patients died of malnutrition in NHS hospitals in 2007 – the highest toll in a decade. More than 8,000 left hospital under-nourished – double the figure when Labour came to power.

The NHS throws away 11million meals every year, and many nurses say they are too busy to help the frail eat.

All this so a bunch of illegal aliens can get health insurance.

What a bright idea from the “committed.”

Scooter

August 31st, 2009
5:55 pm

Paul, Pelosi wrote it! :lol:

Nothing is Free

August 31st, 2009
5:57 pm

Josef nix

**Why not let’s commit to free, universal care instead of some half a**ed bull sh*t?**

Please tell me that you don’t really think that anything will be free.

If you are currently on public assistance (Food Stamps, etc) you will have health care given to you, much like it is now. You will go to clinics that have doctors who can’t get clients to pay full price so instead of going to emergency rooms, (Grady is one of the best in the US), you will go to clinics with substandard doctors.

If you do not currently qualify for public assistance, you will be required by law to purchase this same substandard insurance unless you work for a small business that hasn’t to date been able to afford to give you health care. If that is the case, your employer will then be fined, 8% (or 6%, depending on the plan)of your salary. That money WILL NOT COVER YOU. You will still be required to buy your own health insurance, whether you buy it from the government or from a real health provider.

None of these plans will provide free insurance for anyone who is not presently on public assistance. The difference is that if you couldn’t afford to insure yourself before, now you will be required to pay that insurance before you pay your bills and feed your children.

josef nix

August 31st, 2009
5:57 pm

Davo

“I think it’s just plain evil. The liberals are selling out our children and the future of our country to garner more power.”

I agree 150% and there’s not ten cents worth of difference between us (I’m a liberal) and the conservatives…

Doggone–”…illegal, immoral or fattening…”

It can be illegal or fattening as far as I’m concerned…if that’s what it takes to overcome the immorality we’re rolling in at the moment… :-)

AmVet

August 31st, 2009
5:59 pm

Do you people even have checking or other accounts?

You wanna buy a new TV? Fine, it likely means there is something else you won’t be able to get.

You wanna spend more on the war machine than all of the rest of the planet combined? Great, there go bridges, highways, whatever.

You wanna give away billions more every year to multi-nationals that then turn around and swindle billions of dollars of other people’s money? Okie Dokie. There goes single-payer.

It’s all about choices.

All this blathering about we can’t afford it is sheer nonsense.

DoggoneGA

August 31st, 2009
6:00 pm

“It can be illegal or fattening as far as I’m concerned…if that’s what it takes to overcome the immorality we’re rolling in at the moment”

There is that…

md

August 31st, 2009
6:00 pm

“I think it’s just plain evil. The liberals are selling out our children and the future of our country to garner more power.”

Unfortunately, they are acting like the other group of politicians they were hired to replace. But I guess we were asking a bit too much since they are POLITICIANS.

Anyone seen any of those bottomless checkbooks on ebay lately, or did DC get the last ones.

Normal

August 31st, 2009
6:01 pm

Josef, I’ll meet you on the green, suh…
But seriously, I agree with you in principle, but it will not get done otherwise. I wish that I had the majic dust to make everybody see that a good healthcare bill is good and right for the people of theUnited States, but I don’t. We need to get a bill into law, then start the process of making it good. If too much is tried at once, it will fail…out flank them. ;-) Politics is played that way, so the HCB has to be played that way too.

Nothing is Free

August 31st, 2009
6:01 pm

DoggoneGA

**That’s right…and as long as I’m going to have to pay regardless, I’d feel better about paying to help ALL Americans.**

So how will the working poor being forced to buy something that they cannot afford help them?

DoggoneGA

August 31st, 2009
6:02 pm

“All this blathering about we can’t afford it is sheer nonsense”

Of course it is…but the “it’s all about ME” crowd can only go by their limited imaginings of THEIR costs going up. And they can’t see that the costs are going to go up regardless, and they are going to pay more regardless. But I guess asking them to see beyond the end of their noses is asking too much of them.

Taxpayer

August 31st, 2009
6:02 pm

A commitment to anti-Republicanism, to true pro-life. Now that’s change that Obama brings to the table. Republicans can only whine or do nothing but say no or lie. So what. That’s just what they do.

Scooter

August 31st, 2009
6:03 pm

That’s right…and as long as I’m going to have to pay regardless, I’d feel better about paying to help ALL Americans.

Doggone, that is a noble attitude that I wish everyone had!

Curious Observer

August 31st, 2009
6:04 pm

Yes, we’ll end up with a health care bill, but it won’t be worth the proverbial tinker’s d@mn. The only bill that will get through will be one containing the historically deficient co-op provision, and the health insurance companies will go on their merry way, raising premiums. They’ll accept the no-preexisting-conditions provision, then raise the premiums on existing insureds to cover the cost of that. Then they’ll set about to put the weak co-ops out of business in a few years’ time. They know that no co-op stands a chance against the strength of a health insurance company.

Let’s put the blame for this coming debacle where it belongs. Obama exhibited zero leadership in the crafting of a bill. He mouthed campaign promises about universal coverage and promised a public option; then he washed his hands of the matter, with the result that Congressional committees started crafting the proverbial camel instead of a horse. By not stating outright to Congress his vision of a bill, he broke faith with many of the people who put him into office. Meantime, the supporters of the status quo had a field day, creating all kinds of fictitious bugaboos, while he went on the weak defensive.

What we’ll get is even more expensive health care, with the cost of covering the uninsureds and uninsurables loaded onto the backs of existing insureds.

Finally, you’re a fool if you think there are 51 votes in the Senate for a public option via the reconciliation maneuver. Even the most experienced former Congressional staffers and Congress-watchers say Reid can garner no more than 46 votes. And because Obama failed to exert leadership at the start, the Republicans have given the Blue Dogs cover to oppose the public option with their lies and exaggerations.

Nothing is Free

August 31st, 2009
6:04 pm

Amvet

**You wanna spend more on the war machine than all of the rest of the planet combined? Great, there go bridges, highways, whatever.**

We just spent 800 billion on pork that could have been used to fix those bridges and roads. No one likes wars and everyone likes trains that run from Vegas to Disneyland, but if we are talking about priorities, let’s talk about all the options.

what the heck

August 31st, 2009
6:05 pm

I think the details coming out in the so-called stimulus bill is one of the many reasons we do need to worry about the details more, not less.

Paul

August 31st, 2009
6:05 pm

Scooter

[[Pelosi wrote it!]]

Pelosi works?

———————————————————-

Just read the comments here from people who want something done but who recognize the way things are going, nothing may get done. Or their core concerns of protecting the coverage they have may not get addressed. Or that Medicare won’t get raided to pay for a new benefit for someone else.

I wouldn’t want to be a Democrat running in 2010-

Kamchak

August 31st, 2009
6:07 pm

josef

I’m with you–whole hog or none,and if this don’t pass tie this thing around the neck of Republicans. The late Molly Ivins told a great story about how to teach a dog not to kill chickens. What you do is take the chicken that the dog just killed, take some strong wire and fasten that dead chicken around the dog’s neck. Leave it on until it rots off naturally. When that chicken starts to stink nothing and no one will have anything to do with him and I’m sure that canine’s olfactory system will take offense also.

josef nix

August 31st, 2009
6:07 pm

Nothing is Free

You know full well what is meant by free universal care. Of course it costs and if it is provided from the tax base then we all bear the cost. You already pay for mine, I work in the public education system. You already pay for Senator and Congressman/woman Sloptrougher’s.You already pay for those on public assistance. You already pay for the emergency room last resort. You already pay for those lost hours of productivity when preventable conditions reach critical state. Like I said, it’s all a matter of priorities (AND morality) Free universal care is far more cost effective.

Wyld Byll Hyltnyr

August 31st, 2009
6:07 pm

Jay, greet job of redefining victory so that you needn’t admit Obama’s failure to lead or achieve anything meaningful. Reminds me of a time when one of my fraternity brothers got really twisted at the Grand Lodge in Boston and picked up a 300lb+ Lesley broad at a Back Bay Bar. Next day, we were teasing him mercilessly and the only defense he could muster was that, “she would be pretty cute if she lost 200lbs.”

A beautiful victory for Obama, nonetheless, in the eyes of the liberal sheople.

Normal

August 31st, 2009
6:07 pm

Josef, The magic dust…think I figured it out. Get em’ all in a room and pipe in a combination of pot and laughing gas, add decanters of merlot…Voila, instant harmony and helthcare passes…um, maybe we should add potato chips, too. :lol:

Nothing is Free

August 31st, 2009
6:09 pm

Curious observer

**Republicans have given the Blue Dogs cover to oppose the public option with their lies and exaggerations.**

If you would actually read the plans, you would see that no one needs to scare anyone. Just let them read the plans. That will be scary enough.

As I said, none of these plans are free unless you are already a welfare queen. If the working poor could afford the health insurance for their family, they would already have that insurance.

DoggoneGA

August 31st, 2009
6:10 pm

“So how will the working poor being forced to buy something that they cannot afford help them?”

Who said anything about forcing someone to buy something they can’t afford?

@@

August 31st, 2009
6:11 pm

jay, are you suggesting that liberals accept this bill on faith alone?

Funny, I always thought that something conservatives did.

Oh wait! Faith in government is a dim view.

Nothing is Free

August 31st, 2009
6:11 pm

josef nix

You avoided addressing the point. people that presently cannot afford to buy care would be required to buy that care. Do you support that?

@@

August 31st, 2009
6:11 pm

stick a “was” in there somewhere.

DoggoneGA

August 31st, 2009
6:12 pm

“Doggone, that is a noble attitude that I wish everyone had!”

Thank you.

booger

August 31st, 2009
6:12 pm

Doggone,
Here’s an idea. Why don’t Obama go ahead and take out that $500 billion from Medicare and Medicaid? It’s obviously already identified, and ready for plucking.

I don’t think this will happen though, since govt. gains no control in this scenario.

AmVet

August 31st, 2009
6:12 pm

Nothing is Free, that is my entire point.

This nation still has more money than God.

But it is in fewer and fewer and fewer hands. And not through any other explanation but exploitation and rigging the game.

The American worker earns less – in adjusted inflation dollars – than he did in 1973! Though his productivity has doubled!

And for the life of me I cannot understand why so many advocate for these obvious crooks and swindlers against their own betterment!!! And their kids and grandkids…

To wit, start making the fascists pay for what they’ve been given.

Like the airwaves that belong to the people.

Do you think if HeadRush and Olbermann had to pony up to use OUR assets they might shut the hell up once in awhile?

Like the Big Pharma crooks that have gotten free the fruits of the R & D done at public universities.

And why is this?

The answer is there is too much power and too much wealth in too few hands and the few control our government. And the few create the problems and the injustices for the many and have less and less interest in doing anything about it because they can get away with it. ~Ralph Nader 1996

Paul

August 31st, 2009
6:14 pm

Kamchak

[[if this don’t pass tie this thing around the neck of Republicans. ]]

Isn’t this intellectually dishonest? Yes, some Republicans have put out some lies, fabrications and misrepresentations about what reform would mean. So have Democrats (it just hasn’t been as effective). But a lot of the resistance has been do to Democratic incompetence on the matter. Such as saying stuff like “we’ll take half a billion out or Medicare but don’t worry seniors, it won’t affect you one little bit! In fact, it’ll make it better!!!”

This idea of blaming others to cover up one’s own incompetence is not something we should expect from the party of Accountability and Responsibility.

DoggoneGA

August 31st, 2009
6:14 pm

“Here’s an idea. Why don’t Obama go ahead and take out that $500 billion from Medicare and Medicaid?”

I guess you’ll have to ask him that. I flunked mind reading in high school.

Taxpayer

August 31st, 2009
6:14 pm

It took two testaments for God to get it right (and even that is debatable given the behavior of compassionate conservatives with their war mongering and praise of torturing and such) and yet some think that we’re going to get the perfect healthcare reform bill in one pass. Get real.

Nothing is Free

August 31st, 2009
6:15 pm

DoggoneGA

**Who said anything about forcing someone to buy something they can’t afford?**

The administration is certainly not talking about it but it is indeed part of both plans coming out of the House. Required Health Care is the plan.

It is basically a system that will give welfare recipients health care in small clinics instead of having to go to the emergency room. So once again, the rich get richer, the poor get taken care of and the middle class get screwed.

md

August 31st, 2009
6:15 pm

“It’s all about choices.

All this blathering about we can’t afford it is sheer nonsense.”

Its nonsense if there is money in one account to balance ones “choices”. Even if we choose to “go without” somewhere else, we are still deeply in the red. That is not nonsense.

I agree we need to reform the system, but I say lets get off the new car lot and start looking at the used ones until we get our finances in order.

A garage full of new cars can still be repossessed and one ends up with nothing.

Don’t know about you but I’d prefer a little something vs a bunch of nothing.

DoggoneGA

August 31st, 2009
6:15 pm

“Get real.”

If we could have done that, it would have passed already.

Reform Will Happen

August 31st, 2009
6:16 pm

Censorship seems to be alive and well if you dare to disagree with Mr. Bookman.

No Jay. Progressives couldn’t agree with this nebulous and with all respect due meaningless cop out more. And I have a question for you Jay. Unless you’re blissfully unaware of the enormous sums being poured into the Senate Finance Six and Blue Dogs and Repubos who oppose any reform under the rubric and rhetoric of government control, why do you think millons over the years and hundreds of thousands over the summer have been donated to these people by insurance companies and pharmaceutical companies who respectively oppose public option (insurance companies) and competitive Medicare Part D drug purchase bidding (pharmaceutical companies)? You think it’s because the details don’t matter.

booger

August 31st, 2009
6:17 pm

Wyld Byll,

Your point is well taken. Under this scenario, anything is a victory. Conservatives will surely go down in defeat.

DoggoneGA

August 31st, 2009
6:17 pm

“The administration is certainly not talking about it but it is indeed part of both plans coming out of the House”

I’d like to see a quote where they are proposing forcing anyone to pay for something they can’t afford.

Nothing is Free

August 31st, 2009
6:18 pm

Amvet

**The American worker earns less – in adjusted inflation dollars – than he did in 1973! Though his productivity has doubled**

But who will bear the brunt of these costs? The upper middle class will be taxed beyond belief and the lower middle class will be forced to buy insurance that they couldn’t afford in the first place. So who are we helping here?

Reform Will Happen

August 31st, 2009
6:18 pm

Jay writes:

That’s really what this is all about, for all sides in the debate. The details of the bill matter less than the national commitment it would represent.

The details are crucial and if there is no public option, insurance rates will soar, and to be precise, they will double over the next ten years–both the portion employees pay and the portion employers pay.

And details matter to the 430 people in Georgia who were dropped today from insurance coverage and are dropped every single day because they got sick.

josef nix

August 31st, 2009
6:18 pm

K’chak–a chicken around EVERY neck of those posturing around with what should be, no IS, a basic human right. I sure miss Molly…a witty voice of reason!

NORMAL–if we’re going to give them wiggle room, the start with free universal care and wiggle with that one. En garde!

We’d be having the same argument we’re having here with free universal care. We’ve just lost our moral compass. And, yes, I know that morality these days is a mutable quantity, but these are human lives we’re talking about and, I repeat my question from downstairs, what would YOU tell the crying mama? Eat sh*t and die?

Scooter

August 31st, 2009
6:19 pm

Paul, 2010 is going to be interesting. I don’t know who the heck i will vote for at this point. ?????

DoggoneGA

August 31st, 2009
6:21 pm

“the lower middle class will be forced to buy insurance that they couldn’t afford in the first place”

Where is your evidence for that?

Paul

August 31st, 2009
6:21 pm

Taxpayer

[[It took two testaments for God to get it right]]

Ummm, I think our Jewish friends might say He should’ve left it alone at one -

Reform Will Happen

August 31st, 2009
6:21 pm

For one side in this debate, represented by Jim Demint who has lied at his town meetings about the health care proposals “giving government electronic access to your bank account” and nurturing other outrageous lies to ignorant people in South Carolina (who blissfully think it’s great that about 14% of their state has no insurance coverage and no access to chronic health care) and the Republican side it’s about trying to get Obama out of office period. That’s why they play to the masses of ignorant Republicans and couch health care as total government control and socialism. Fortunately that population can do no better today than about 18% of the electorate.

Nothing is Free

August 31st, 2009
6:22 pm

DoggoneGA

**I’d like to see a quote where they are proposing forcing anyone to pay for something they can’t afford.**

So I take it you haven’t read the bill or the outline presented in the AJC’s special section this weekend. Perhaps you should.

Paul

August 31st, 2009
6:23 pm

Scooter

[[I don’t know who the heck i will vote for at this point. ?????]]

When I get in these moods I default to ABI – Anybody But the Incumbent.

That poll the other day showing most people think all of Congress should be replaced? I’ll bet if you took a poll a day later and asked that same sample if they planned to send their Congressman back most would say ‘yup’ -

AmVet

August 31st, 2009
6:24 pm

OK, off to my favorite cantina.

Good discussions here tonight. Keep it up peeps and keep fighting the “good fight”!

Reform Will Happen

August 31st, 2009
6:25 pm

LOL this place is getting as funny as Tina Fey. I must have missed that class in economics. How do you buy insurance that you can’t afford in the first place? Max out your plastic? Go see a loan shark since Georgia is one of the worst states in the country going over the top to facilitate loan sharks–a formidialbe lobbying force at the Ole Hog Dinner and in the Jaw Jaw legislature.

Sell your house?

Gonna be forced to buy insurance that you can’t afford in the first place. Hmmmm–which of the four current bills to choose from 2 in House 2 in Senate is that language contained in. I must have missed that passage.

Normal

August 31st, 2009
6:25 pm

Josef: You said,

We’d be having the same argument we’re having here with free universal care. We’ve just lost our moral compass. And, yes, I know that morality these days is a mutable quantity, but these are human lives we’re talking about and, I repeat my question from downstairs, what would YOU tell the crying mama? Eat sh*t and die?

Again I agree with you, and you know I’d do everything I could for that crying Mama, but this is a strange country, full of people who call themselves Christians, but wouldn’t pull a Grandmother out from in front of a moving bus. That is what we are dealing with here, and that is why we need to get a foot in the door and go from there…

DoggoneGA

August 31st, 2009
6:26 pm

“So I take it you haven’t read the bill or the outline presented in the AJC’s special section this weekend. Perhaps you should”

So you can’t pull out a quote to back up your statement that people will be forced to buy something they CAN’T AFFORD. Why am I not surprised?

F. Sinkwich

August 31st, 2009
6:26 pm

I am overwhelmed by the health care expertise exhibited by Jay and posters on this site. Just pass a law mandating health care for everyone, then every problem with our health care system is magically fixed. Genius!

This argument is about freedom and liberty. Once government controls your health care, it controls your life.

I Report/ Vast White Wing Conspirator (-: You Whine )-:

August 31st, 2009
6:26 pm

“If they somehow manage to get the votes and get enough Democrats to walk the plank and commit suicide, in the next Congress, I’ll be chairman Joe Barton of the Energy and Commerce committee, and we’ll repeal it,” Barton said.

bwa

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/2009/08/31/republican_promises_to_reverse_obamacare_if_gop_wins_in_2012.html

DoggoneGA

August 31st, 2009
6:27 pm

“I must have missed that passage”

Yes, me too.

Normal

August 31st, 2009
6:27 pm

Scooter

August 31st, 2009
6:19 pm

SCOOTER, do what I do, when in doubt, vote against the incumbent, works for me…

Nothing is Free

August 31st, 2009
6:28 pm

DoggoneGA

**Where is your evidence for that?**

http://www.ajc.com/news/nation-world/main-proposals-now-before-122572.html

Requirements for individuals

Must have insurance, enforced through a penalty of up to 2.5 percent of adjusted gross income with hardship waivers.

Reform Will Happen

August 31st, 2009
6:30 pm

Sorry 3 in the House and 1 in the Senate–4 bills with Senate Finance stalling to wring more hundreds of thousands out of hte insurance copanies and pharmaceutical companies who are their Bunny Ranch employers.

josef nix

August 31st, 2009
6:30 pm

Nothing is Free

“You avoided addressing the point. people that presently cannot afford to buy care would be required to buy that care. Do you support that?”

Please pardon the descent into snipe, but what part of “free universal” are you missing. Nobody would have to “buy” anything. Society would have to pay for it, for sure, but what the h*ll are we paying taxes for to begin with?

@@

“jay, are you suggesting that liberals accept this bill on faith alone?”

That, and a packet of mustard seed.

We keep talking about “health care reform.” Face it, “reform” is just so much tin-siding and cheap shingles with a few cheap grille work adornments put on a structure that’s rotten to the core. Forget reform. Start anew. Change we can believe in.

Cantina Bartender

August 31st, 2009
6:30 pm

You gonna pay your bar tab, AmVet, or do you still think it is your right to have other people pay for your drinks?

Sucker owes thirty grand.

Nothing is Free

August 31st, 2009
6:31 pm

DoggoneGA

**So you can’t pull out a quote to back up your statement that people will be forced to buy something they CAN’T AFFORD. Why am I not surprised?**

Be ready to be surprised:

http://www.ajc.com/news/nation-world/main-proposals-now-before-122572.html

Requirements for individuals

Must have insurance, enforced through penalty fee with hardship waivers.

Kamchak

August 31st, 2009
6:32 pm

Yes, some Republicans have put out lies, fabrications and misrepresentations about what reform would mean.

Some? Try one. Mike Allen of Politico in mid May revealed Frank Luntz’s memo outlining a ten-point plan for refuting the upcoming debate in HC reform. This memo was released to Republicans and they have stayed on message.

Agreed, the Dems have bungled this mightily by trying to compromise—with both the Blue Dogs and Republicans. They should have stuck to their guns and said “universal care or bust,” but that would not have been the politically correct thing to–do both with big corporate donors and the fact that it is an all in kind of play.

Nothing is Free

August 31st, 2009
6:33 pm

josef nix

read on:
http://www.ajc.com/news/nation-world/main-proposals-now-before-122572.html

You really need to understand what you are talking about before you admonish others that do.

Hef

August 31st, 2009
6:33 pm

I keep reading here (paraphrase)-it’s coming down the pike regardless(health care reform), that reminds me of a dimwit that once said to a woman that was about to be raped “it’s going to happen regardless,might as well enjoy it”. If you don’t believe in whats being proposed is it wrong to disagree? Just because Health Care needs to be reformed, do we hastily accept what is thrust at us because Obama wants it done before his 1st year in office. I like the word compromise,I thought Obama was going to be the one who brought us all together.Hmmm maybe next term.