Cheney’s torture memos do not back his claim
Vice President Dick Cheney has claimed for months that two secret CIA memos would confirm his claim that “enhanced interrogation techniques” — a euphemism for torture — was essential in getting captured al Qaida operatives to sing to U.S. intelligence officers. He demanded that those memos be made public.
This week, both memos were released. They do not prove Cheney’s claim; they do not even address Cheney’s claim. Both memos are absolutely, thunderously silent on any role that “enhanced interrogation” may have played in extracting information.
The reports do describe the nature of the information acquired from detainees and its usefulness both in halting potential plots and understanding the nature and organization of al Qaida. However, if you read the memos through, nowhere do they state, imply, hint or suggest that information was acquired or could only have acquired through torture or “EITs.”
To the contrary, in the more than a dozen instances in which the documents explain how specific information was obtained, it is through standard interrogation techniques. Most often, it is because detainees were fooled into thinking that the information they were offering had already been obtained.
Take, for example, Khalid Sheikh Muhammad, the captured mastermind of 9/11. The memos explain at least some of what was learned from interrogating Muhammad, who is referred to by the acronym “KSM.” He was waterboarded 183 times, although the memos make no mention of that or what role it might have played.
It does say this, however:
“Uncharacteristic for most detainees, KSM almost immediately after his capture in March 2003 elaborated on his plan to crash commercial airlines into Heathrow airport; he may have assumed that Ramzi bin al Shibh, who was captured in December 2002, had already divulged this plan.”
When KSM coughed up information about al Qaida’s anthrax program, “he apparently calculated — incorrectly — that we had this information already.”
When he explained the role of another operative, the CIA memo notes that KSM knew the operative had been captured months earlier and “possibly believ(ed) the detainee was talking.” The memos refer to that process of using nuggets of information to extract additional nuggets as “the building block process.”
The documents are in places heavily redacted. It is conceivable that the redacted information would prove or at least support the case that Cheney has tried to make. However, Cheney has claimed that the memos AS RELEASED prove his case, and they do not. As stated above, they do not even address his case.
Of course, the memos do not disprove Cheney’s claim either. But they do suggest that torture in the real world is much less effective than in the world of Jack Bauer. It apparently does not turn its subjects into babbling brooks of information, eager to tell all just to make the pain stop.
“As in information from other collection streams, detainee reporting is often too incomplete or general to lead directly to arrests; instead, detainees provide pieces to the puzzle….” one memo explains.
And at least twice in the memos, the authors make it clear that “We assess that every detainee likely has information that he will not reveal…”
A couple of final points:
Some have argued that it doesn’t matter whether torture was effective, that terrorists deserve punishment anyway. But it’s pretty clear based on the inspector general’s report and other information that as a result of “enhanced interrogation”, a number of innocent people were tortured. As the CIA IG report concluded, in dry, bureaucratic language:
“Agency officers report that reliance on analytical assessments that were unsupported by credible intelligence may have resulted in the application of EITs without justification. Some participants in the Program, particularly field interrogators, judge that … assessments to the effect that detainees are withholding information are not always supported by an objective evaluation of available information and the evaluation of the interrogators but are too heavily based, instead, on presumptions of what the individual might or should know.”
Finally, as Steve Chapman of the Chicago Tribune notes, the international convention against torture was signed into American law by President Ronald Reagan. That document states, in part:
“No exceptional circumstances whatsoever, whether a state of war or a threat of war, internal political instability or any other public emergency, may be invoked as a justification of torture.”
From there, Chapman notes:
“Reagan undoubtedly knew what modern conservatives forget — that once you rationalize torture, there is no logical place to stop. If threatening a prisoner with a power drill is permissible, why not drilling holes in him? If choking is OK, why not strangulation? If threatening to kill a detainee’s children passes muster, why not actually killing them? If 30 wall slams don’t do the job, why not 100?.”
Why not?
Well, “because we’re the United States of America” used to be a good enough reason, and it ought to be again.
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215 comments Add your comment
Peadawg
August 27th, 2009
9:03 am
I find it funny that Jay keeps talking about the failures of Bush’s administration (which there were many) but has ignored the failures of the current Administration.
TnGelding
August 27th, 2009
9:07 am
Hang ‘em high!
That last sentence should be good enough, but we just talk the talk. We can’t walk the walk. We’ve always had too many clandestine operations.
Peadawg
August 27th, 2009
9:09 am
Hey Jay, you want to censor Peadunce’s post? That was un-called for.
jt
August 27th, 2009
9:10 am
“Because we’re the United States of America”, whatever dude.
Meanwhile hundreds of American kids are being tortured as we speak.
Five hollering guards wearing helmets, face shields, and full body armor charge into a mentally ill man’s cell. The first attacker smashes a big shield into him, knocking him down. The attackers jump on him, spray Mace into his face, push him onto his bed, and twist his arms to his back so they can handcuff him. They connect the cuffs by a chain to leg irons. Then they take him into the corridor, cut off all his clothes, and carry him naked and screaming through the cellblock, continuing to Mace him. They put him in an observation room where they bind him to a restraint chair with straps. He remains there naked and cold for hours, yelling and mumbling.
http://www.portlandphoenix.com/features/top/ts_multi/documents/05081722.asp
Wyld Byll Hyltnyr
August 27th, 2009
9:11 am
Waterboarding, roach infested rooms, flashing guns, loud metal music, sleep deprivation, flashing guns, impugning one’s manhood, making fun of another’s religion – this all sounds like a weekend at a circa 1970s Dartmouth Fraternity and not torture.
In fact, this BDS addled (and, yes, McCain said waterboarding was torture, but one must consider and forgive his hypersensitivy given that he underwent real live torture) definition of torture serves no purpose but to demean the country and embolden our enemies.
Wonder if letting an unwed mother drown in a car counts as torture?
Truth
August 27th, 2009
9:11 am
Typical for Jay…
RW-(the original)
August 27th, 2009
9:12 am
On the other hand, Khalid Shaykh Muhammad, an accomplished resistor, provided only a few intelligence reports prior to the use of the waterboard, and analysis of that information revealed that much of it was outdated, inaccurate or incomplete. As a means of less active resistance, at the beginning of their interrogation, detainees routinely provide information that they know is already known. Khalid Shaykh Muhammad received 183 applications of the waterboard in March 2003.–Page 91
He provided information that helped lead to the arrests of terrorists including Sayfullah Paracha and his son Uzair Paracha, businessmen who Khalid Shaykh Muhammad planned to use to smuggle explosives into the United States; Saleh Almari, a sleeper operative in New York; and Majid Khan, an operative who could enter the United States easily and was tasked to research attacks [redacted]. Khalid Shaykh Muhammad’s information also led to the investigation and prosecution of Iyman Faris, the truck driver arrested in early 2003 in Ohio.–Page 87
The documents are a lot easier to read here.
Bosch
August 27th, 2009
9:13 am
Dick Cheney is evil.
The demons have caused his brain to rot.
Wyld Byll Hyltnyr
August 27th, 2009
9:14 am
Peadawg
August 27th, 2009
9:03 am
I find it funny that Jay keeps talking about the failures of Bush’s administration (which there were many) but has ignored the failures of the current Administration.
__________________________________________________________________________________
That’s because Obama has had no successes. The Obama Administration has, in Obama’s words (ok, actually Devil Patrick’s words) been “jess wordts” with no achievement – unless you cont missint the deficit by 30% or $2billion.
TnGelding
August 27th, 2009
9:14 am
Peadawg
August 27th, 2009
9:03 am
Well, it is in the news. But I’d like to see more emphasis on actions, both failures and successes, by the current administration myself.
“New jobless claims fall in latest week”
WASHINGTON (Reuters) – The number of U.S. workers filing new claims for jobless benefits fell last week to 570,000, and those collecting long-term unemployment benefits dropped to the lowest level since April, government data showed on Thursday.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20090827/bs_nm/us_usa_economy_jobless_3
“U.S. steadying, housing no longer drags: Fed’s Lacker”
DANVILLE, Virginia (Reuters) – Richmond Federal Reserve President Jeffrey Lacker was quoted on Thursday as saying the U.S. economy was stabilizing after a painful recession and the shattered housing market will no longer be a drag on economic activity.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20090827/bs_nm/us_usa_economy_lacker_4
Brad Steel
August 27th, 2009
9:15 am
No justification for torture here? Well, maybe if Cheney looks hard enough he can find evidence of WMD’s or Sasquatch, who is also a eminent threat to American freedom.
But, of course, he’s the vice president. If he says so, it’s not illegal or even immoral. He says so!
Redneck Convert (R--and proud of it)
August 27th, 2009
9:16 am
Well, I might of knowed. We had a saint walking amongst us and didn’t even know it. In just 24 hours the media done turned the drunk and woman killer Ted Kennedy into the greatest senator we ever had and said he was greater than his brothers and they didn’t know how the Senate was going to do without him. Even the godly Republican senators that hated him all of a sudden have started calling him just the greatest guy they ever knowed. I wonder if I die if they’ll start calling me the greatest blogger and beer truck driver that ever lived. Seems strange how you can be a jerk most of the time and then get to be great just by dying. Some of you all should try it some time. I’m ready to recommend it for the Whiner and Peadawg and Sister Dusty and other great bloggers here.
Anyhow, if Cheney says the torture worked that’s good enough for me. I don’t need no facts. Course, I wouldn’t want to go hunting with the guy, him being such a lousy shot and all, but he usually tells things the way they are. Besides, it serves these Terrists right. They deserve to get waterboarded and kept up for days at a time and all the other things the CIA done. I mean, they forced us to just about strip butt-nekkid at airports and get our e-mail read and our phone calls wire-tapped and such.
Have a good day everybody.
Mrs. Godzilla
August 27th, 2009
9:16 am
Defend torture……seriously screw with your karma.
Peadawg
August 27th, 2009
9:17 am
I’ll admit Obama has done ONE good thing that affected me…that $8,000 tax credit for 1st time home buyers. After buying everything needed for moving from an apartment to a house, I needed it.
But, the deficit is growing and there is a story per week about jobless rate increasing. As a whole, he hasn’t done much to help this country when we need it most.
Peadunce
August 27th, 2009
9:18 am
Waaahhh.
Peadawg, Ya big baby.
Peadawg
August 27th, 2009
9:18 am
“Defend torture……seriously screw with your karma.”
And we all know what karma is….it starts w/ a B and ends w/ a H.
Finn McCool
August 27th, 2009
9:19 am
Having to keep a hanky nearby when watching Glenn Beck…is that torture?
I Report/ Vast White Wing Conspirator :-) You Whine :-(
August 27th, 2009
9:20 am
It all depends which side you are on.
jt
August 27th, 2009
9:20 am
If Khalid Sheikh Muhammad was a “dead-beat dad”, would torture be acceptable?
Finn McCool
August 27th, 2009
9:21 am
When the wingnuts try to blow up another US federal building, I suggest we practice the latest torture techniques on them.
I can see not using torture against foreign enemies but it would seem reasonable to use on domestic enemies. Those are the only real enemies worth worrying about.
NRB
August 27th, 2009
9:21 am
Only a liberal whines about how the terrrorists were treated in attemps to keep us safe.
Only a liberal defends even the most sadistic criminals, and excuses their behaviour while demanding they be fed porter house steak in a country club prison complete with cable TV and gym membership.
Only a liberal demands that a country gives up its sovereignty and hands the country over on a silver platter to barbarians..be it Israel giving in to Palestine, or the USA giving in to Mexico.
Democrats: the party of the mental disorder.
Truth
August 27th, 2009
9:21 am
Defend terrorist….seriously screw with your karma.
eagle scout
August 27th, 2009
9:23 am
Finn …. “Having to keep a hanky nearby when watching Glenn Beck…is that torture?”
No, because that would be considered self imposed torment!
Gale
August 27th, 2009
9:27 am
re: comments about Ted (sorry, I must)
I keep hearing about the wonderful things Ted did, and I do know that most of those benevolent acts were with taxpayer dollars. However, I cannot help but wonder what sort of career he might have had if not for that disasterous night.
USinUK
August 27th, 2009
9:28 am
“it starts w/ a B and ends w/ a H”
bath?
bash?
bad rash?
big gash?
banana mash?
jconservative
August 27th, 2009
9:28 am
Jay, the FBI interrogator who testified before congress, remember he was behind a screen to protect his identity, said that the FBI received NO info from the CIA that they did not already have. And the info they already had came through standard interrogation techniques employed by that FBI interrogator. Sworn testimony. And no one in sworn testimony has refuted his statements.
Personally I do not care what they do to any terrorist. But I will defer to John McCain. He says he was & he does not believe the US should. I will buy that. And Reagan signed the no torture convention into law. We either are or are not a nation of laws. The administration cannot cherry pick the laws they want to obey.
Mrs. Godzilla
August 27th, 2009
9:29 am
ANY BODY HERE DEFENDING TERRORISTS?
Nope, didn’t think so.
USinUK
August 27th, 2009
9:30 am
NRB –
“Only a liberal defends even the most sadistic criminals”
no, that seems to be the denizens of Wingnutteria defending the people who use torture (which is, by the way, against the law, both in the US an internationally) … but thanks for playing.
pat
August 27th, 2009
9:33 am
Are we seriously worried about how Khalid Sheikh Muhammad was treated? Seriously? I don’t condone torture, but I don’t don’t give a flying rats ass that Khalid Sheikh Muhammad was water borded or any terrorist was tortured. That is not the kind of thing keeping me up at night…
These guys are muderers, your pity for them makes me wonder.
Defending terrorists, unbelieavable.
What’s next, yall gonna say we deserved to be attacked? That 8 year old girls should marry a 60 year old man? That women should not be allowed to go to school? The taliban and al qaeda are just “freedom fighters”?
stands for decibels
August 27th, 2009
9:35 am
Well, “because we’re the United States of America” used to be a good enough reason, and it ought to be again.
Furthermore, those who seem to have forgotten about the rights of the accused, and that it’s called the “Justice Department”, and not the “Give-our-demented-VP-a-stiffy Department” know what they can do with a rusty chainsaw and sand for lube.
And NRB @ 9.21, you really shouldn’t talk about John McCain like that.
Doggone/GA
August 27th, 2009
9:36 am
“Only a liberal whines about how the terrrorists were treated”
Ronald Reagan is a LIBERAL!!! After all, he signed that agreement. He’s a LIBERAL I tell you!
Finn McCool
August 27th, 2009
9:37 am
I guess the conservatives pick and choose which parts of Reagan they want to worship?
By the way, Scarlet Johnason is an actor like Ronny. Is it ok if I worship her?
getalife
August 27th, 2009
9:37 am
Since we legalized torture and spying on Americans, might as well legalize drugs and immigrants.
ByteMe
August 27th, 2009
9:37 am
“Only a liberal defends even the most sadistic criminals”
Well, since torture is something that only sadists do and the people who commit torture on behalf of a nation that signed a “no torture” treaty and has laws in place against torture are therefore criminals in their own right… does that mean you’re a liberal?
Peadawg
August 27th, 2009
9:38 am
“USinUK @ 9:28 am”
LOL! You know what word I mean. My post would probably get censored if I typed it out
Doggone/GA
August 27th, 2009
9:38 am
“These guys are muderers, your pity for them makes me wonder”
Which guys? All the ones we tortured that had nothing to do with 911? Or are they, in your mind, ALL murderers BECAUSE we tortured them?
NRB
August 27th, 2009
9:41 am
And NRB @ 9.21, you really shouldn’t talk about John McCain like that.
———————————————–
Oh I have bigger issues with McCain the total sell out. You really think he’s a conservative? BALHAHAHHAHA!!!!!
That idiot voted for the first bailout under Bush.
He’s a crony.
That’s why I didn’t vote for him.
But I’d take him over the illegal alien terrorist thats in office now.
AmVet
August 27th, 2009
9:41 am
Cheney is/was a gutless buffoon, a confirmed, inveterate liar and as big a proven loser as has ever darkened the doorways of Washington DC. The ONLY VP in our history who makes Spiro Agnew great in comparison.
And hands down, the very poster boy for craven chickenhawks across the land.
“I had other priorities in the sixties than military service.” –on his five draft deferments, April 5, 1989
“There are a lot of lessons we want to learn out of this process in terms of what works. I think we are in fact on our way to getting on top of the whole Katrina exercise.” –Sept. 10, 2005 (EXERCISE???)
“We know he’s been absolutely devoted to trying to acquire nuclear weapons, and we believe he has, IN FACT, reconstituted nuclear weapons.” –March 16, 2003
“In Iraq, a ruthless dictator cultivated weapons of mass destruction and the means to deliver them. He gave support to terrorists, had an established relationship with al Qaeda. –Nov. 7, 2003
“I think they’re in the last throes, if you will, of the insurgency.” — on the Iraq insurgency, June 20, 2005
“Go f*ck yourself.” –to Sen. Patrick Leahy, during an angry exchange on the Senate floor about profiteering by Halliburton, June 25, 2004
And the ALL TIME most moronic and deadly quote from this lame brain scumbag?
“My belief is we will, in fact, be greeted as liberators.” –March 16, 2003
But hey you ring-through-their-noses, head up their arses conned STILL think he was JUST fab.
I mean the little b@st@rtd kept us “safe” didn’t he?
USinUK
August 27th, 2009
9:41 am
“These guys are muderers, your pity for them makes me wonder”
pity for them? no. respect for the law and respect for international treaties on how we treat our prisoners.
and your willingness to cast aside the things that make our country great (namely, that we don’t treat our prisoners like some despotic, megalomaniacal dictator does) makes me wonder.
Bosch
August 27th, 2009
9:43 am
Finn,
“I guess the conservatives pick and choose which parts of Reagan they want to worship?”
When it comes to worship, wingnuts pick and choose all the time.
Doggone/GA
August 27th, 2009
9:43 am
“My post would probably get censored if I typed it out ”
bitch
NRB
August 27th, 2009
9:43 am
Well, since torture is something that only sadists do and the people who commit torture on behalf of a nation that signed a “no torture” treaty and has laws in place against torture are therefore criminals in their own right… does that mean you’re a liberal?
————————————————————
It means that you have no idea what torture is.
Showing someone a power drill is not torture.
Splashin 3oz. of water in someones face isnt torture.
Even making someone sit in a dark room isnt.
If you want to see torture, download the videos of muslims beheading Americans with dull knives. THATS torture.
But as usual, Democrats are only interested in crippling their own country. They’ve done it to the police departments, which is why crime is out of control, and now they want to escalate the de-balling of the country even further by attacking people who keep us safe.
Good job, guys.
Doggone/GA
August 27th, 2009
9:43 am
“My post would probably get censored if I typed it out ”
No, it wouldn’t.
USinUK
August 27th, 2009
9:44 am
peadawg –
“LOL! You know what word I mean. My post would probably get censored if I typed it out ”
broken stash
big wad of cash
belt with sash
bang and flash
Bosch
August 27th, 2009
9:45 am
I must admit – I have alot of respect for GWB now. I think he knows he screwed up and is laying low at the ranch and having a blast doing whatever it is he does on his ranch. Good for him.
Now, if only Dick Cheney would STFU and slither away into oblivion. He’s making himself look the fool he is.
Bosch
August 27th, 2009
9:45 am
Peadawg,
Bitch.
See?
Doggone/GA
August 27th, 2009
9:46 am
“even further by attacking people who keep us safe.”
Oh sure…they kept us safe be telling us to go shopping. Yeah, that’s the ticket!
USinUK
August 27th, 2009
9:46 am
doggone – 9:43
I liked my answers better.
Peadawg
August 27th, 2009
9:46 am
Wow Doggone…nice. The simplest things sometimes don’t get through the filter…but that does.
Bosch
August 27th, 2009
9:47 am
NRB,
“If you want to see torture, download the videos of muslims beheading Americans with dull knives. THATS torture.”
No, that’s murder. Geez, you’re confused this morning.
Mrs. Godzilla
August 27th, 2009
9:47 am
he had to have meant balderdash
of course he could have meant it ended with a “T”…..
ByteMe
August 27th, 2009
9:48 am
NRB says “It means that you have no idea what torture is.”
And you have proof you’ve undergone these actions? I have an idea, let’s put you in a chilly room, put a dark sack over your head, take off all your clothes, and then bring someone into the room you absolutely hate and distrust and give him a power drill.
You have absolutely NO idea what torture is.
ByteMe
August 27th, 2009
9:49 am
Peadawg: just don’t link the word!
Rightwing Troll
August 27th, 2009
9:51 am
Mentioning torture always gets the wingnuts blood flowing… They seem especially agitated this AM…
ewwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww
Turd Ferguson
August 27th, 2009
9:51 am
Torture doesnt work eh…well I would imagine if one were restrained with their torturer threatening to turn their Test-icles into Castanets they would immediately begin talking.
The only thing these Muslims understand is violence. This molly-coddling has to stop.
Doggone/GA
August 27th, 2009
9:52 am
“Wow Doggone…nice. The simplest things sometimes don’t get through the filter…but that does”
It’s really simple, if your post goes to moderation…just read through it and change anything that you think MIGHT be causing it. There’s not need to wait for it to be released. And if you choose your statements and words carefully, it won’t get moderated to begin with.
RealityKing
August 27th, 2009
9:53 am
“Uncharacteristic for most detainees, KSM, almost immediately after his capture in March 2003 elaborated on his plan to crash commercial airlines into Heathrow airport ”
When KSM coughed up information about al Qaida’s anthrax program”
Hmmmmm……
ByteMe
August 27th, 2009
9:54 am
BTW, did anyone else see this article about our whore-dog senators?
http://www.baynews9.com/content/9/2009/8/27/513459.html?title=STIMULUS%20WATCH:%20GOP%20opposes%20plan%20then%20seeks%20money
Typical. Say one thing and do another. But they’ll win re-election by talking out of both sides of their mouths.
Peadawg
August 27th, 2009
9:55 am
As far as torture goes…I’m torn. My Christian side says it’s wrong and immoral. But my other side says “they killed American people and had no mercy on us, so why have mercy on terrorists”
I just don’t know……
ByteMe
August 27th, 2009
9:55 am
Peadawg: WWJD?
stands for decibels
August 27th, 2009
9:55 am
Thanks for the acknowledgment @ 9.17, Peadawg.
I might suggest that you’re also less likely to be screwed by your credit card companies, forced to work with an unqualified goon who just happened to be the “right” gender, or catch an infectious disease spread by a sick kid whose parents put off seeing a doc, thanks to legislation Obama signed into law, all of which were opposed by the GOP.
And that’s just three that come to mind.
Chris Salzmann
August 27th, 2009
9:56 am
pat August 27th, 2009 9:33 am SAID: Are we seriously worried about how Khalid Sheikh Muhammad was treated? Seriously? I don’t condone torture, but I don’t don’t give a flying rats ass that Khalid Sheikh Muhammad was water borded or any terrorist was tortured. That is not the kind of thing keeping me up at night…These guys are muderers, your pity for them makes me wonder.
Defending terrorists, unbelieavable.
CHRIS SAYS: Pat, if anyone broke the law, the “I was following orders” is no excuse now as it wasn’t when the Nazis or Japanese used it to justify their actions. This has nothing to do with “defending” terrorists, as you put it, but defending our entire system of justice.
It’s about all justice and the law. If I remember correctly, we live in a civilized society based on laws and justice. We don’t throw out these basic principles simply because its convenient. You obviously think that the law should only be followed when its Americans are on the receiving end of it. If you don’t believe in having EVERYONE in this country follow the letter and intent of the law, move to China. I’m sure they’d love to have you.
Bosch
August 27th, 2009
9:59 am
Peadawg,
Read Chris Salzman’s post ^^^ at 9:56 – maybe that’ll clear things up for ya’.
Chris Salzmann
August 27th, 2009
10:01 am
Turd Ferguson August 27th, 2009 9:51 am SAID: Torture doesnt work eh…well I would imagine if one were restrained with their torturer threatening to turn their Test-icles into Castanets they would immediately begin talking.
CHRIS SAYS: Yeah, and the problem with torture is that they will tell you ANYTHING to make it stop. Give me 10 minutes alone with you and I’ll have you singing any tune I want. Which is why anyone with an ounce of brains knows that torture doesn’t work.
BTW, when’s Sean Hannity going to undergo his waterboarding as he said he would. Guess he doesn’t have the cojones as we long suspected.
USinUK
August 27th, 2009
10:03 am
“I would imagine if one were restrained with their torturer threatening to turn their Test-icles into Castanets they would immediately begin talking.”
you’re assuming that you’re holding the right person.
what if you’re not?
what if you’re holding a guy that was named by his neighbors as a terrorist? (like the majority of folks we held in Abu Ghraib)
what if you’re holding someone who has the same name? (like Maher Arar)
what if the guy you’re holding really DOESN’T know anything, but you’re beating the crap out of him, keeping him awake for 11 days, threatening him with execution … oh, and killing him – let’s not forget about that.
when we do these things, we are no better than our enemy.
AmVet
August 27th, 2009
10:07 am
“…well I would imagine if one were…”
You imagination has nary, nada, zip, zero, zilch to do with reality.
The neon-conned, corporate Republicans at war – Ready! Fire! Aim!
BushCo torture, NEVER before sanctioned in this greatest of all nations, is ONLY a justification for these emasculated, violence-prone, bloodlusting and impotently enraged faithful to feel good about themselves.
Vicariously through CIA contracted thugs, they lust for depravity and immorality in the name of national security.
I ask you, does this NOT conclusively prove they are the Americans who are the most similar in this barbaric philosophy to their religious cousins, the Islamo-murders?
Birds of an Abrahamic feather…
Doggone/GA
August 27th, 2009
10:09 am
“when we do these things, we are no better than our enemy”
No. We are worse than our enemies…because WE have taken a stand against torture.
Fly-On-The-Wall
August 27th, 2009
10:10 am
One thing that the people who think torture is ok is that by us (the U.S.) performing torture on captives, we now open up the possibility of torture being put upon our soldiers & civilans anywhere in the world. In the past many nations & organizations would not think of performing something as evil as this because they knew the wrath of the U.S. would come down on them. But now that it has been show we’ve done it in a sanctioned way they no longer feel the restraint to conform.
If you ask our military leaders they will tell you this has hurt them and our cause in the field. It has put our soldiers as a great risk. Was this how Bush and Cheney looked out for our soldiers and honored them?
USinUK
August 27th, 2009
10:10 am
doggone –
“No. We are worse than our enemies…because WE have taken a stand against torture.”
well said.
stands for decibels
August 27th, 2009
10:10 am
Oh I have bigger issues with McCain the total sell out. You really think he’s a conservative?
One who has experienced occasional moments of clarity, yes.
Although I’m happy to have the torture-supporting Palindrone wing claim that mantle of conservatism for yourselves. Go for it, bro.
Mrs. Godzilla
August 27th, 2009
10:13 am
Peadawg
@ 9:55
That was a very honest thing to say. I hope you can find the strength
to follow your good side. I bet you can.
Truly following the fisherman is about the hardest thing anybody can do.
Personally, I mess it up alot…..
TnGelding
August 27th, 2009
10:17 am
USinUK
August 27th, 2009
9:28 am
You continue to amaze! Keep up the rebuttal. How often do you get back to the states? Did you ever fly on the Concorde?
USinUK
August 27th, 2009
10:18 am
Peadawg –
“As far as torture goes…I’m torn. My Christian side says it’s wrong and immoral. But my other side says “they killed American people and had no mercy on us, so why have mercy on terrorists” ”
didn’t Christ say to turn the other cheek?? (and didn’t he also say that following his teachings wasn’t going to be a walk in the park?? following his teachings IS hard because it DOES go against the very human nature than demands retribution)
if you truly want to follow Christ, then you HAVE to be against torture – there really is no other stance you can make.
just the £0.02 from a very lapsed catholic.
USinUK
August 27th, 2009
10:21 am
“You continue to amaze! Keep up the rebuttal. How often do you get back to the states? Did you ever fly on the Concorde?”
stop. you’re no lightweight, yourself, mistah!
I make a pilgrimage back to the land o’ my birth (just north of the big chicken) once a year to visit the fam.
and, sadly, the concorde is no more – was decommissioned back in 2004
sadly, I never got to experience the thrill …
I Report/ Vast White Wing Conspirator :-) You Whine :-(
August 27th, 2009
10:21 am
I got your torture-
Cruel and neglectful’ care of one million NHS patients exposed
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/healthnews/6092658/Cruel-and-neglectful-care-of-one-million-NHS-patients-exposed.html
jolie
August 27th, 2009
10:25 am
Obama is outsourcing torture through his policy on RENDITION. No difference. He just doesn’t like soiling his own hands.
Putting the blame off on someone else. It’s what Obama does best.
TnGelding
August 27th, 2009
10:26 am
USinUK
August 27th, 2009
10:21 am
We lived in Kennesaw for 28 years; Cartersville now. We were traveling on an Air France pass once and our flight was canceled, but they wouldn’t let us fly on the Concorde. Seems like it was flight one going over and flight two coming back out of NY.
TnGelding
August 27th, 2009
10:27 am
jolie
August 27th, 2009
10:25 am
Yeah, and he’s going to be a one-termer unless he does a 180.
pat
August 27th, 2009
10:29 am
Khalid Sheikh Muhammad had nothing to do with 9/11? LOL!!!
retiredds
August 27th, 2009
10:29 am
The economy is recovering from the Bush era total mismanagement of fiscal policy, defense policy, and social policy, and international relations. The Republicans are on the wrong side of history, again, and cannot take any credit whatsoever for pulling the U.S. economy from the brink of catastrophic meltdown. The Obama administration is re-focusing on the war that the Bush administration gave up on (Afghanistan) to deploy troops to Iraq on the flimsiest evidence as an excuse to placate Cheney and crew about the “evil empire”.
It will take a few years but with health care reform, including Medicare, Social Security reform, both of which will bankrupt the U.S. as they currently stand, the deficits will moderate and then be reduced, UNLESS a Republican administration comes in and cuts taxes (revenue) to the bone and run another series of huge deficits in the growing economy they inherit (the exact opposite of what is prudent fiscal policy).
So history is repeating itself a.k.a. the 1930’s. This is not new. So, read it and weep, as in three and 1/2 years this administration will be re-elected by a larger margin than last November.
I am looking forward to the comments that will try to degrade this piece, but be advised that no response will be given.
ByteMe
August 27th, 2009
10:31 am
UNLESS a Republican administration comes in and cuts taxes (revenue) to the bone and run another series of huge deficits in the growing economy they inherit (the exact opposite of what is prudent fiscal policy).
Uhhh, the Republicans from Reagan to Bush II got us into this fiscal mess. The adults in the room took away their keys to the car and now they won’t be allowed to drive again for a long time.
TnGelding
August 27th, 2009
10:31 am
retiredds
August 27th, 2009
10:29 am
Nice sentiment.
ByteMe
August 27th, 2009
10:32 am
Oh, wait. Never mind retiredds. I really need to change over to my reading glasses now.
USinUK
August 27th, 2009
10:32 am
“Khalid Sheikh Muhammad had nothing to do with 9/11? LOL!!!”
gee, Pat, glad we have you around since you can sort the wheat from the chaff and you’d know EXACTLY who was involved with what and you’d know exactly how much info they may or may not have.
so, why aren’t you in the CIA since you know so much?
ByteMe
August 27th, 2009
10:33 am
Well, ok, third pass: my sentiment still stands.
USinUK
August 27th, 2009
10:35 am
whiner –
the study you cite says that the problem is, essentially, shortages in the nursing staff leading to neglect.
thank god the US system doesn’t have a nursing shortage …
oh, waitaminnit … http://www.reuters.com/article/domesticNews/idUSTRE5270VC20090308
USinUK
August 27th, 2009
10:37 am
TnG –
where in Kennesaw?? I used to love going to the battlefield parks for a day out …
(so, do you raise Tn Walkers? where does the moniker come from??)
AmVet
August 27th, 2009
10:40 am
Vis a vis the BushCo conned and BushCo torture, I contend that in the most fundamental (get it?) way, the faithful have already lost their “war on terrorism”.
They have become on of them, and so to that extent, the murderous Islam cousins have bested the middle aged barbarians. (Hell their “science” got stuck there, so why not this too?).
But the rest of us Americans who will not be duped so damned easily by obvious frauds and religious charlatans. And we will NOT allow you non-evolved “philistines” to win.
As with every other major issue of the day, you will lose this one…
Off to keep the great American economic engine humming that the poor gangster capitalists can get more welfare.
Later…
Mrs. Godzilla
August 27th, 2009
10:41 am
Rendition and Extraordinary Rendition
Two different things…..( I don’t like either)
But some interesting reading on the subject – not the quote from Human
Rights Watch…..
http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/archives/individual/2009_02/016703.php
Mrs. Godzilla
August 27th, 2009
10:42 am
should read…NOTE the quote….
Peadawg
August 27th, 2009
10:46 am
Not to change the subject but….
“if you truly want to follow Christ, then you HAVE to be against torture – there really is no other stance you can make”
What about abortion and gay marriage. If you truly follow Christ, shouldn’t you be against those as well? Sorry if I just opened a big can of worms…..
jolie
August 27th, 2009
10:47 am
TnGelding
10:27 am
Yeah, and he’s going to be a one-termer unless he does a 180.
He (Obama) is gonna be a one-termer regardless. In the eight months he’s been in office, he’s proven himself to be incompetent. If Panetta leaves, his goose is cooked. His foreign policy is on target. His domestic policy is a fiasco. There’s nowhere he can turn to succeed.
One of the candidates reportedly has begun a series of preparatory briefings.
“It would be a shame if such as talented a Washington hand as Panetta were to leave after one year,” said Richard Clarke, an ABC News consultant who worked on the national security team for the Clinton and Bush administrations and served as an adviser to President-elect Obama.
“It takes that long for any senior bureaucrat to begin to understand what needs to get done and how to do it, “said Clarke. “The CIA needs some stability.”
http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/Story?id=8398902&page=2
Mrs. Godzilla
August 27th, 2009
10:48 am
Peadawg
Good question and only a can of worms for those who can’t talk like grownups.
I have yet to read anywords from Jesus Christ on either subject.
Some old testament stuff….leviticus on gays and shrimp and poly cotton blends….
Gale
August 27th, 2009
10:55 am
Nice response on the can of worms, Mrs Godzilla. I can think of several reasons why neither issue would have been mentioned in the versions of the Bible that have made it through translations to our reading. One might be that Jesus had more important issues to talk about. Certainly both gays and abortions existed in his lifetime.
USinUK
August 27th, 2009
10:55 am
Peadawg –
“What about abortion and gay marriage. If you truly follow Christ, shouldn’t you be against those as well? Sorry if I just opened a big can of worms…..”
and that’s where the LAPSED comes in … there are loads of things that I disagree with the Catholic church about (transubstantiation and birth control are just the tip of the iceburg).
As for homosexuality, I’ve known gay couples who have been together decades and who honor the concept of marriage better than most hetero couples – why should they not have a legally-recognized union that is equal to heterosexual couples?
lastly – as long as women have been getting pregnant, they have found ways to 1) prevent it and 2) terminate the pregnancy. the best thing we can do is put thorough, effective and ACCURATE resources into place to make them as rare as possible and keep it legal to prevent deaths and permanent injury from home abortions or from back-alley butchers.
USinUK
August 27th, 2009
10:57 am
Mrs. G – the first time I read your response, I read that as “gay shrimp” and I wondered how they could tell …
Gale
August 27th, 2009
10:58 am
Eating “gay shrimp” !!! That’s how it spreads!!! I always wondered!
Doggone/GA
August 27th, 2009
10:59 am
“What about abortion and gay marriage. If you truly follow Christ, shouldn’t you be against those as well?”
Please provide quotes from Jesus that are against either of those.
Peadawg
August 27th, 2009
11:02 am
I’m at work…I don’t have my Bible w/ me. If you want quotes, use Google. It’s not hard. Google “bible and gay marriage” or “bible and abortion”. You can do it just as easy as I can.
Doggone/GA
August 27th, 2009
11:04 am
“Google “bible and gay marriage” or “bible and abortion”. You can do it just as easy as I can”
I didn’t say quotes from the Bible…I said quotes from JESUS.