More bad news looming in CIA torture and abuse cases
I’ve argued from the beginning that any torture prosecutions ought to start at the top and work down, because at the top is where the problem started. In the military they talk a lot about “commander’s intent,” and in this case the commander’s intent was all too clear: Don’t worry about the law. Assume the suspect’s guilt and apply brutality.
Of course, the message was never that explicit. But war is tough business; excesses are inevitable, and sometimes good people can get caught up in it. That’s reality. But that’s also why the example set at the top is so important. If the stress is on discipline and following the law, subordinates are less likely to let things get out of hand. But if that emphasis on discipline is weakened, if the people at the top communicate a “take-the-gloves-off” attitude, then abuse becomes much more widely accepted.
That’s also why Colin Powell and many top generals were so critical of the lax approach to prisoner abuse, which for the most part was pushed by civilians with little real experience in wartime. Those in uniform understood that the Geneva Convention and other rules protected not just the captive but the captor as well. They understood that incidents such as those at Abu Graib would become not “aberrant,” as the excuse went, but inevitable.
According to Monday’s New York Times, a CIA inspector general report will be released today outlining in painful detail what happened within that agency when the message came down that the rules no longer applied. The specific details on prisoner abuse and murder may undercut those of us who have argued against prosecuting lower-level personnel.
According to the Times:
When the C.I.A. first referred its inspector general’s findings to prosecutors, they decided that none of the cases merited prosecution. But Mr. Holder’s associates say that when he took office and saw the allegations, which included the deaths of people in custody and other cases of physical or mental torment, he began to reconsider.
With the release of the details on Monday and the formal advice that at least some cases be reopened, it now seems all but certain that the appointment of a prosecutor or other concrete steps will follow, posing significant new problems for the C.I.A. It is politically awkward, too, for Mr. Holder because President Obama has said that he would rather move forward than get bogged down in the issue at the expense of his own agenda…..
The recommendation to review the closed cases, in effect renewing the inquiries, centers mainly on allegations of detainee abuse in Iraq and Afghanistan. The Justice Department report is to be made public after classified information is deleted from it.
Mr. Holder, who questioned the thoroughness of previous inquiries by the Justice Department, is expected to announce within days his decision on whether to appoint a prosecutor to conduct a new investigation; in legal circles, it is believed to be highly likely that he will go forward with a fresh criminal inquiry.
The country is no doubt ready to move on, to put such unpleasantness behind it. But as we’re about to be reminded, certain types of issues do not ever go away until they are addressed.
Paul Gimigliano, a C.I.A. spokesman, said Sunday that the Justice Department recommendation to reopen the cases had not been sent to the intelligence agency. He added: “Decisions on whether or not to pursue action in court were made after careful consideration by career prosecutors at the Justice Department. The C.I.A. itself brought these matters — facts and allegations alike — to the department’s attention.”
The report by the Justice Department’s ethics office has been under preparation for more than five years, and its critique of legal work on interrogations provoked bitter complaints from Attorney General Michael B. Mukasey as he was leaving office as the Bush administration’s final attorney general.
The Justice Department’s report, the most important since Mr. Holder took office, was submitted by Mary Patrice Brown, a veteran Washington federal prosecutor picked by Mr. Holder to lead the Office of Professional Responsibility earlier this year after its longtime chief, H. Marshall Jarrett, moved to another job in the Justice Department.
There has never been any public explanation of why the Justice Department decided not to bring charges in nearly two dozen abuse cases known to be referred to a team of federal prosecutors in Alexandria, Va., and in some instances not even the details of the cases have been made public.
Former government lawyers said that while some detainees died and others suffered serious abuses, prosecutors decided they would be unlikely to prevail because of problems with mishandled evidence and, in some cases, the inability to locate witnesses or even those said to be thevictims.
A few of the cases are well known, like that of Manadel al-Jamadi, who died in 2003 in C.I.A. custody at Abu Ghraib prison in Iraq after he was first captured by a team of Navy Seals. Prosecutors said he probably received his fatal injuries during his capture, but lawyers for the Seals denied it.
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227 comments Add your comment
Peadawg
August 24th, 2009
8:01 am
1st lol. Happy Monday everyone.
Dave R.
August 24th, 2009
8:04 am
Hope & Change’s poll numbers must be down again today. Time to bring out the Bush boogeyman.
joe matarotz
August 24th, 2009
8:05 am
If we violate the Geneva Convention, we are no better than our enemy. ’nuff said.
wee weed up
August 24th, 2009
8:07 am
Outstanding. When does the war crime trial of Obama start?
Peadawg
August 24th, 2009
8:11 am
Wee Weed Up, remember…everything is Bush’s fault. Everything that happens during the next 4-8 years is all Bush’s fault. LOL
I Report/ Vast White Wing Conspirator (-: You Whine )-:
August 24th, 2009
8:11 am
The country is no doubt ready to move on, to put such unpleasantness behind it.
Yeah, that’s why the libs keep dragging this corpse out and animating it.
Trying to change the subject from Obozo’s total failures?
wee weed up
August 24th, 2009
8:15 am
Health care bill stinks on ice. Obama is more than likely drunk, high, and in denial.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_rRE5UK6NQU
wee weed up
August 24th, 2009
8:18 am
“If we violate the Geneva Convention, we are no better than our enemy. ’nuff said.”
Tell obama, not us. Troops under him are violating it as I write this.
Taxpayer
August 24th, 2009
8:19 am
Jay,
I doubt that it is even possible to bring closure to all the incompetence and destruction wrought on us by the Bush Administration and his cronies but some matters are simply too serious to even try to sweep under the rug. Folks would be tripping over that toxic mound for a lifetime.
RB from Gwinnett
August 24th, 2009
8:20 am
Are you libs going to whine about Obama’s vacations the way you did Bush?
Kayaker 71
August 24th, 2009
8:21 am
I am sure that the Justice Dept has more important things on it’s plate than this issue. Focus this effort on illegal immigration… spend the time and money on something that has a direct bearing on the American people every day. War is not a perfect thing and there are no perfect warriors. The armchair do-gooders have probably never seen a battle field nor witnessed a real terrorist in action. But it is a good time to dis the Repubs, especially when the 2010 elections are just around the corner. Anything for a vote.
Peadawg
August 24th, 2009
8:28 am
“Are you libs going to whine about Obama’s vacations the way you did Bush?”
I doubt it. If Bush did it, it’s bad. But if Obama does it, it’s ok. LOL!
Redneck Convert (R--and proud of it)
August 24th, 2009
8:28 am
Well, I might of knowed the librul Democrats would start going after the Defenders of Us from Terrists sooner or later. What’s next? Reading a Terrist his rights and making sure he’s got a lawyer with him when he’s being questioned?
You can’t fight the Terrists the normal way. You got to be just as dirty and low-down as they are. You got to rough them up and maybe kill a few when you got them in custody if you’re going to get them to talk. These people that talk about the Constitution and the Geneva Convention just don’t know how things work. I want the CIA and the military to turn into Terrists theirselfs if they got to in order to protect me and mine. They can even take away all my rights if it will protect me from the Terrists. Having rights don’t do you no good if you’re dead.
So I know the libruls are just licking their chops and slobbering all over theirselfs at the thought they might could get a few godly Republicans that worked for My President to do the perp walk. I will just hang my head and bawl if that happens. Meantime, this Obama is up there with the Kennedys just laying around on a beach and smiling at the thought of putting good people in jail.
It’s a sad day in the U.S. of A. I’m with the Whiner and Peadog and all the other godly Conservatives on this one. Have a good day everybody.
wee weed up
August 24th, 2009
8:30 am
“I doubt that it is even possible to bring closure to all the incompetence and destruction wrought on us by the Bush Administration and his cronies but some matters are simply too serious to even try to sweep under the rug. Folks would be tripping over that toxic mound for a lifetime.’
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wwGVDmEsi8A
RW-(the original)
August 24th, 2009
8:31 am
But of course, we’re the bad guys
USinUK
August 24th, 2009
8:31 am
RB –
“Are you libs going to whine about Obama’s vacations the way you did Bush?”
if he spends as much time as W(orthless) did on vacation (30% of his time in office), then yes.
FinnMcCool
August 24th, 2009
8:31 am
even before the current crisis Reaganomics had failed to deliver what it promised. Remember how lower taxes on high incomes and deregulation that unleashed the “magic of the marketplace” were supposed to lead to dramatically better outcomes for everyone? Well, it didn’t happen.
To be sure, the wealthy benefited enormously: the real incomes of the top .01 percent of Americans rose sevenfold between 1980 and 2007. But the real income of the median family rose only 22 percent, less than a third its growth over the previous 27 years.
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/08/24/opinion/24krugman.html?_r=1
“…less than a third its growth over the previous 27 years.”
bob
August 24th, 2009
8:32 am
Doesn’t Holder have more important things to do ? What about his campaign to put a black man in whitey’s house on Saturday nights ? Remember that little gem when he called Americans cowards then ask whitey when was the last time you had a black man in your house on a Saturday night.
FinnMcCool
August 24th, 2009
8:33 am
RB,
Bush took the ENTIRE month of August off his first year. Seven months into the job and it’s time for a month long vacation?
Such is life in the silver spoon, trust fund baby world?
wee weed up
August 24th, 2009
8:34 am
“Focus this effort on illegal immigration… spend the time and money on something that has a direct bearing on the American people every day.’
Like counting them in the census and gerrymandering more lib idiots in the border states?
USinUK
August 24th, 2009
8:35 am
Finn –
“Seven months into the job and it’s time for a month long vacation?”
and that was BEFORE the bottom fell out … before Enron, before WorldCom and before 9/11 … yep, “Presidenting is hard werk.”
Kayaker 71
August 24th, 2009
8:37 am
McCool,
Your beloved Democratic Congress averages about 140 days/yr in official session. If my HP calculator is working right, that’s working about 38% of the time. Everyone needs a vacation now and then but that’s not earning your money… not by a long shot.
RB from Gwinnett
August 24th, 2009
8:38 am
This is at least the 3rd vacation the Obama’s have taken since he took office, libs. Are you haveing some problems seeing that objectively or do you have some bias stuck in your eye?
wee weed up
August 24th, 2009
8:38 am
The british freak and all the pro lib bloggers just rolled off of their mid-town futons. This should be good.
Paul
August 24th, 2009
8:39 am
No good answers to resolution on this. Leadership at the top was lacking, subordinates given too much latitude. So now, is it enough that these details are known or is it necessary to unearth every detail with a minute by minute account? Will anything essentially different come to light?
Possibly prior Justice didn’t prosecute as they accepted the reality of the arguments Jay made. My guess is the bulk of the public wants to move on and ensure safeguards are in place so it doesn’t happen again as Afg expands and the Administration conducts operations in other countries.
USinUK
August 24th, 2009
8:40 am
RB –
“This is at least the 3rd vacation the Obama’s have taken since he took office, libs”
darlin, I hate to break it to you, but this is his first vacay
http://voices.washingtonpost.com/44/2009/08/23/seven_months_in_obama_heads_to.html?hpid=politics
USinUK
August 24th, 2009
8:41 am
from that same article
“Obama is taking only a week off from his day job, far less than some of his predecessors. Former president George H. W. Bush often took several weeks at Kennebunkport, Maine. His son, George W. Bush, spent weeks at his ranch in Crawford, Texas.”
RW-(the original)
August 24th, 2009
8:41 am
Gotta love people blaming Bush for Enron and Worldcom just because he prosecuted them for the stuff they were doing before he came to office. I trust you’ll be consistent and blame Obama for the “torture” he wants to prosecute.
Too bad I can’t stay. Later y’all!
wee weed up
August 24th, 2009
8:41 am
“Finn -
“Seven months into the job and it’s time for a month long vacation?”
and that was BEFORE the bottom fell out … before Enron, before WorldCom and before 9/11 … yep, “Presidenting is hard werk.””
Your not even here, twit. Worry about the UK. You were probably the one that helped release the Libyan terrorist.
FinnMcCool
August 24th, 2009
8:41 am
kayaker,
They aren’t the CiC.
By the way, my “beloved Democratic Congress” isn’t getting this vote if they don’t pass health care with either the public option or, preferably, a single payer system.
Paul
August 24th, 2009
8:42 am
RW-(the original)
The graphic warning? Why? It didn’t even have the shots of people jumping to their deaths as their friends were burning alive -
USinUK
August 24th, 2009
8:43 am
“Gotta love people blaming Bush for Enron and Worldcom just because he prosecuted them for the stuff they were doing before he came to office”
ah. no. not blaming Bush for Enron and WorldCom – nice stretch, though. making the point that he “needed” the vacation earlier and longer than Obama.
nice try. but, no dice.
USinUK
August 24th, 2009
8:44 am
oui-oui –
“Your not even here, twit. Worry about the UK. You were probably the one that helped release the Libyan terrorist.”
awwww … diddums … poor widdle thing can’t handle a debate …
wee weed up
August 24th, 2009
8:45 am
“Possibly prior Justice didn’t prosecute as they accepted the reality of the arguments Jay made. My guess is the bulk of the public wants to move on and ensure safeguards are in place so it doesn’t happen again as Afg expands and the Administration conducts operations in other countries.”
It is happening right now, under your great and glorious leader Obama. You think the Marines are playing tiddly winks with the taliban, moron? What is good for the goose is good for the gander. Start the war criminal trials, indict Obama in the Haig and let’s go, goof.
wee weed up
August 24th, 2009
8:47 am
“The graphic warning? Why? It didn’t even have the shots of people jumping to their deaths as their friends were burning alive -”
The libs love that part. Were’nt all of the hijackers registered democrats?
TnGelding
August 24th, 2009
8:48 am
To think how we treat prisoners would have anything to do with how al Qaeda or the Taliban would treat them is naive. Of course the abuses were un-American and regrettable, but we don’t have the resources to use on that now. It’s a jungle out there. Time to move on.
Paul
August 24th, 2009
8:48 am
Enter your comments here
NRB
August 24th, 2009
8:49 am
Here goes Jay and the rest of the libs, falling all over themselves to defend terrorists and criminals as usual.
Look, “torture” is likely unpleasant…but if hooking up a 12Volt car battery to Mohammad’s nipples via alligator clips will keep me and my family safe, so be it.
In other words Jay: shut up and stop whining.
Kayaker 71
August 24th, 2009
8:50 am
McCool,
Bozo’s health care plan is toast. Even with a Demo majority, most Congressmen/women are afraid of 2010 and they want to escape unscathed to run with a clean slate. When did you last see a controversial subject come up for debate prior to an election? There are a lot of pissed off people out there and we will certainly get some surprises in the 2010 elections.
getalife
August 24th, 2009
8:51 am
And they wonder why Americans do not trust them.
Child, please.
Taxpayer
August 24th, 2009
8:51 am
By the way, everything from the past administration is Bush’s fault. He was the top dawg for those eight years. If he had grown up to be something more than a Gog-fearing momma’s boy, he would have at least learned enough by 2000 to accept the fact that he had no business in the White House. Of course, the Republicans could have still been in charge if it were not for him and Cheney and Rumsfeld and Gingrich and Gramm… and their spiritual advisers, Limbaugh, Hannity, et al.
TnGelding
August 24th, 2009
8:51 am
wee weed up
August 24th, 2009
8:47 am
If Obama had introduced troops into Afghanistan initially you’d have a better argument. But you’re being absurd. It’s going to take decades to clean up the mess.
Peadawg
August 24th, 2009
8:54 am
“By the way, everything from the past administration is Bush’s fault”
So, for the next 4-8 years, is everything Obama does because of the mess that Bush left him? When will Obama take responsibiliy for his and his administration’s actions?
FinnMcCool
August 24th, 2009
8:55 am
You have to expect that there is stuff going on behind closed doors that we really don’t want to know about. Every country (except maybe the Swiss…or Belgium) that’s a world power is doing some torturing. Otherwise they wind up like…Belgium or Switzerland.
Time for a cliche? You have to crack a few eggs to make make an omelet.
I still like this Matt Damon quote: ”Look, the best line about torture I’ve heard came from [retired CIA officer turned war-on-terrorism critic] Milt Beardon,” Damon says in the Miami Herald.
“He said, ‘If a guy knows where a dirty bomb is hidden that’s going to go off in a Marriott, put me in a room with him and I’ll find out. But don’t codify that. Just let me break the law.’ “
Taxpayer
August 24th, 2009
8:56 am
It’s going to take decades to clean up the mess.
Yep.
Bosch
August 24th, 2009
8:56 am
Good lord – such diversions this morning.
Obama’s vacation? Really? That’s all they’ve got this beautiful Monday morning?
Paul,
My first reaction would be to say – we know what happened, let’s move on – but as you said, as Afghanistan expands, it would be nice for the chickenhawks to understand what you do and don’t do – and explain it to the wingnuts (as seen here) that you don’t torture people when they start screaming for it.
Paul
August 24th, 2009
8:57 am
TnGelding
[[It’s going to take decades to clean up the mess.]]
The Administration’s not even sure it can get there from here.
From this morning: “Military commanders with the NATO mission in Afghanistan told President Barack Obama’s chief envoy to the region this weekend that they did not have enough troops to do their job, pushed past their limit by Taliban rebels who operated across borders.”
Earlier, Pres Bush was criticized for not going in with enough in both Afg and Iraq. He was also criticized for not sending in enough critical equipment. Pres Obama’s already been criticized for sending in Marines without even enough radios (after all these years and billions of dollars, that’s just staggering…).
Question here is, will Pres Obama deny the military the most critical resource – manpower – they’ve said they need to do the job he’s assigned them?
stands for decibels
August 24th, 2009
8:58 am
if hooking up a 12Volt car battery to Mohammad’s nipples via alligator clips will keep me and my family safe
You know that it did no such thing, however.
You’ve been told this over and over and over again that our “enhanced interrogation techniques” yielded nothinng of value, certainly nothing that couldn’t have been extracted more quickly and efficiently by time honored interrogation methods developed by people who have actually interrogated battle-hardened prisoners–and yet you’re still in denial.
You want so much to believe that all the movies and TeeVee shows, wherein the hero has cornered a bad guy and smacks him around to get the ticking-time-bomb information is true because, well–why is that?
I really don’t know what to do with people like you. I guess it’d be best to ignore you. I do try, but it’s hard sometimes.
DAVID
August 24th, 2009
8:58 am
Booo…who…who…Pooo..pooo terrorists…Give them a pillow to cry on..
Bosch
August 24th, 2009
9:00 am
SFD,
Since we haven’t had this topic in a while – I guess we’re gonna have to debunk the new wingnuts – will this ever end?