Is VA pushing vets to accept death? Judge for yourself
In the latest iteration of the “death panel” absurdity, the Veterans’ Administration is being accused of trying to push veterans into accepting an early death in an effort to save taxpayers’ money.
The focus of the controversy is a 52-page VA booklet published in 1997. The Obama administration says it hasn’t been in use since 2007; its critics claim otherwise, and the facts are a little muddled at this point. The most accurate way to put it may be that the booklet was officially withdrawn for revision but some parts of the bureaucracy might not have gotten the word.
But before you get the talking points from one side or the other, take your own look at the actual document and see what it actually says, in context. Then, if you so choose, report back here with your honest reaction.
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© 2009 The Atlanta Journal-Constitution
282 comments Add your comment
AmVet
August 24th, 2009
1:21 pm
I read it last night in response to an “Obama death panel” reference here.
Of course that assertion was utter nonsense.
The document is enormously educational and I can see how it would help a lot of veterans and their families.
TONS of great information.
But let’s face it, the words informed choices and neo-con are generally antithetical…
RealityKing
August 24th, 2009
1:24 pm
Thousands of military veterans are waiting to find out if they were exposed to infectious diseases by government clinics that performed colonoscopies and other procedures with equipment that wasn’t properly sterilized
Patients at Veterans Affairs health centers around the country were given incorrect doses of drugs, had needed treatments delayed and may have been exposed to other medical errors due to software glitches that showed faulty displays of their electronic health records.
I Report/ Vast White Wing Conspirator (-: You Whine )-:
August 24th, 2009
1:24 pm
The speed of
deterioration is unpredictable, but
severe dementia from Alzheimer’s
usually occurs within 5-10 years
from the first signs of memory loss.
In later stages, people with dementia
become incontinent, losing control
of their bowels and bladder. They
often require nursing home care
because they need daily help with
feeding, dressing, and bathing and
this is often more than most families
can handle. As they lose interest in
eating, complications of malnutrition
such as infections and skin ulcers
can lead to death.
So why not pop yourself in the head now?
ew
Gale
August 24th, 2009
1:25 pm
This document would only feed the death panel idea if that was all you enabled yourself to see. It provides a very good way for people to consider and communicate what they think about a subject that is painful for everyone, our death or the death of those nearest to us. It is important to realize that even those nearest to us may not understand what we really want for ourselves when it comes to our deaths. It appears to me to have been written in a very caring manner.
RealityKing
August 24th, 2009
1:26 pm
Veterans raising concerns about conditions in Veteran Administration (VA) hospitals. Official VA inspections have revealed unhealthy conditions like reused objects that can spread infection, inadequate cleaning, and vermin infestations. Inspectors have also found that staff members are not adequately supervised.
inspections have found even more serious violations in the way resident physicians are supervised. Inspectors had difficulty locating supervising physicians in four VA facilities who were supposed to be present to oversee residents and found many other irregularities. In Lexington, Kentucky, inspectors found that supervising physicians gave their computer passwords to resident physicians, so that the residents could cosign their own reports without supervision.
VA facilities and practitioners have been found liable for malpractice for errors ranging from misdiagnosis to surgical and medication errors and inadequate care. It is more difficult to bring a lawsuit against a VA hospital under federal law than against an independent hospital, and the cases are tried before federal judges without a jury.
Does all of this mean that VA hospitals are giving a lower standard of care than other hospitals? The answer seems to be yes. A study of the VA program for cardiac care completed by an independent group in 2003 showed that heart patients treated in VA hospitals are more likely to die from heart attacks or in the 3 years following an attack than patients of the same age and physical condition treated in non-VA facilities. VA hospitals were also found to perform angioplasty or bypass surgery 50% as often as other hospitals. Those procedures can often extend a life for several years.
RealityKing
August 24th, 2009
1:27 pm
Progressive change you can believe in..
AmVet
August 24th, 2009
1:29 pm
Really a Queen, that is old news.
And was extremely limited in scope then
Yes, I realize that it confirms your suspicions that the VA is not perfect.
And that the bungling clowns in the private sector are infinitely better.
Talk to some veterans who know the real story about the quality of care at the VA, presuming you have never spent one moment of your life in ANY VAH, in ANY capacity – patient, staff or volunteer – instead of being duped by your fascist pals in the GOP and at Aetna…
I Report/ Vast White Wing Conspirator (-: You Whine )-:
August 24th, 2009
1:29 pm
Who is the primary author of this workbook? Dr. Robert Pearlman, chief of ethics evaluation for the center, a man who in 1996 advocated for physician-assisted suicide in Vacco v. Quill before the U.S. Supreme Court and is known for his support of health-care rationing.
I was not surprised to learn that the VA panel of experts that sought to update “Your Life, Your Choices” between 2007-2008 did not include any representatives of faith groups or disability rights advocates. And as you might guess, only one organization was listed in the new version as a resource on advance directives: the Hemlock Society (now euphemistically known as “Compassion and Choices”).
Sick.
getalife
August 24th, 2009
1:31 pm
You are going to die.
Yes, cons are scared of death but it is nothing but deep sleep.
They can drop the public option, give the drug and insurance companies more welfare and the gop will vote no.
RealityKing
August 24th, 2009
1:37 pm
As the son of a critially wounded vetern, I personally know the horrors of Walter Reed, and many other VA hosptials. Which is why we now spend HUGE amounts on private insurance to get the best healthcare in the world. Doctors and Nurses following all over themselves to make sure pop is happy. Why? Because they know we can take our business somewhere else.
Needless to say that pop is not a big fan of Obamacare…
RealityKing
August 24th, 2009
1:39 pm
Ever wonder why they closed all those military base hospitals?? I don’t.
DoggoneGA
August 24th, 2009
1:42 pm
“following all over themselves”
Conjurs up some odd pictures, doesn’t it? (or is it just me?)
Taxpayer
August 24th, 2009
1:45 pm
Let’s see, Title Page. How to prepare a personalized living will. Sounds simple enough. Bottom line. It’s a matter of personal responsibility. It’s your life and your death. Take ownership of it. Don’t dump the burden on someone else, no matter how much Sister Sarah and her flock whine about it.
OK. There is one thing. Get rid of the “Don’t call 911…” caption on Page 5 so Grassley and Palin and RW and others cannot point to that as some form of subliminal message.
AmVet
August 24th, 2009
1:47 pm
White Andy, you conveniently to forgot the author of that last post.
A “faith-based” witch doctor.
What do you expect?
Really, nice – non-sourced 6 year old info.
Try this on for size:
How Veterans’ Hospitals Became the Best in Health Care
http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1376238,00.html
And there are lots of other sources showing how the VA is now the model of efficiency, lower costs and better care.
But that’s OK, keep on shucking and grinning for BIG pharma, GIANT HMO’s, etc…
I mean it’s not like they don’t receive enough corporate welfare already do they?
And I’m sure your pop loves paying those crooks…
Mrs. Godzilla
August 24th, 2009
1:52 pm
I saw it on page 59, lower right hand corner, small type….
Paul is the Walrus, The Walrus is dead…….
RealityKing
August 24th, 2009
1:54 pm
$20 Million Settlement Reached for Veterans in ID Theft Suit: The Veterans Affairs Department agreed Tuesday to pay a total of $20 million to veterans for exposing them to possible identity theft in 2006 by losing their personal information. January 28, 2009
V.A. Plans Review of Billing for Care in Sexual Assaults: Officials will review billing practices at veterans health centers amid concerns that some are improperly charging for care relating to sexual assault in the military. May 7, 2009
V.A. Hospital, a Rogue Cancer Unit: A unit in Philadelphia operating with virtually no outside scrutiny botched 92 of 116 prostate cancer treatments over a span of more than six years. June 21, 2009
Officials said political wrangling has disrupted services provided by the Department of Veterans Affairs for decades. June 24, 2009
Dr. Gary D. Kao, accused of mishandling treatment for prostate cancer, spoke before a Congressional panel. June 30, 2009
Veterans Affairs Faces Surge of Disability Claims: The backlog of unprocessed claims for psychological and physical injuries is now over 400,000, up from 253,000 six years ago. July 13, 2009
24 Million in VA bonuses: Reports on the technology office found that managers “were not fiscally responsible in administering awards” and that there had been nepotism and abuse of authority in the office. August 22, 2009
jconservative
August 24th, 2009
1:54 pm
Alzheimer’s – dementia
I Report – just join a skydiving club. When the dementia keeps you from remembering to pull the cord………..
Taxpayer
August 24th, 2009
1:54 pm
RealityKing
August 24th, 2009
1:37 pm
As the son of a critially wounded vetern, I personally know the horrors of Walter Reed, and many other VA hosptials. Which is why we now spend HUGE amounts on private insurance to get the best healthcare in the world. Doctors and Nurses following all over themselves to make sure pop is happy. Why? Because they know we can take our business somewhere else.
Needless to say that pop is not a big fan of Obamacare…
So, let’s just print HUGE amounts of money and hand it out to EVERYONE. Problem solved.
Mike "Hussein" Smith
August 24th, 2009
1:56 pm
An obviously dangerous booklet: It asks questions that it doesn’t answer and ones that might cause the reader to think or — yikes! — reflect. Of course we can’t have any of this. I want my taxbucks going to killing, instead.
RealityKing
August 24th, 2009
1:58 pm
Veterans Affairs Secretary abruptly resigned after months of struggling to defend charges of shoddy treatment for veterans injured in the Iraq war.
AmVet
August 24th, 2009
1:58 pm
fascist propaganda notwithstanding:
Yet here’s a curious fact that few conservatives or liberals know. Who do you think receives higher-quality health care? Medicare patients who are free to pick their own doctors and specialists? Or aging veterans stuck in those presumably filthy VA hospitals with their antiquated equipment, uncaring administrators, and incompetent staff? An answer came in 2003, when the prestigious New England Journal of Medicine published a study that compared veterans health facilities on 11 measures of quality with fee-for-service Medicare. On all 11 measures, the quality of care in veterans facilities proved to be “significantly better.”
Here’s another curious fact. The Annals of Internal Medicine recently published a study that compared veterans health facilities with commercial managed-care systems in their treatment of diabetes patients. In seven out of seven measures of quality, the VA provided better care.
It gets stranger. Pushed by large employers who are eager to know what they are buying when they purchase health care for their employees, an outfit called the National Committee for Quality Assurance today ranks health-care plans on 17 different performance measures. These include how well the plans manage high blood pressure or how precisely they adhere to standard protocols of evidence-based medicine such as prescribing beta blockers for patients recovering from a heart attack. Winning NCQA’s seal of approval is the gold standard in the health-care industry. And who do you suppose this year’s winner is: Johns Hopkins? Mayo Clinic? Massachusetts General? Nope. In every single category, the VHA system outperforms the highest rated non-VHA hospitals.
Not convinced? Consider what vets themselves think. Sure, it’s not hard to find vets who complain about difficulties in establishing eligibility. Many are outraged that the Bush administration has decided to deny previously promised health-care benefits to veterans who don’t have service-related illnesses or who can’t meet a strict means test. Yet these grievances are about access to the system, not about the quality of care received by those who get in. Veterans groups tenaciously defend the VHA and applaud its turnaround. “The quality of care is outstanding,” says Peter Gayton, deputy director for veterans affairs and rehabilitation at the American Legion. In the latest independent survey, 81 percent of VHA hospital patients express satisfaction with the care they receive, compared to 77 percent of Medicare and Medicaid patients.
Outside experts agree that the VHA has become an industry leader in its safety and quality measures. Dr. Donald M. Berwick, president of the Institute for Health Care Improvement and one of the nation’s top health-care quality experts, praises the VHA’s information technology as “spectacular.” The venerable Institute of Medicine notes that the VHA’s “integrated health information system, including its framework for using performance measures to improve quality, is considered one of the best in the nation.”
If this gives you cognitive dissonance, it should. The story of how and why the VHA became the benchmark for quality medicine in the United States suggests that much of what we think we know about health care and medical economics is just wrong. It’s natural to believe that more competition and consumer choice in health care would lead to greater quality and lower costs, because in almost every other realm, it does. That’s why the Bush administration–which has been promoting greater use of information technology and other quality improvement in health care–also wants to give individuals new tax-free “health savings accounts” and high-deductible insurance plans. Together, these measures are supposed to encourage patients to do more comparison shopping and haggling with their doctors; therefore, they create more market discipline in the system.
But when it comes to health care, it’s a government bureaucracy that’s setting the standard for maintaining best practices while reducing costs, and it’s the private sector that’s lagging in quality. That unexpected reality needs examining if we’re to have any hope of understanding what’s wrong with America’s health-care system and how to fix it. It turns out that precisely because the VHA is a big, government-run system that has nearly a lifetime relationship with its patients, it has incentives for investing in quality and keeping its patients well–incentives that are lacking in for-profit medicine.
http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/features/2005/0501.longman.html
Paul
August 24th, 2009
2:01 pm
My honest reaction is talk of planning ahead was always encouraged as the smart thing to do (and the kind thing for those left behind)….
until health care reform became an issue.
Mrs. Godzilla 1:52
No need to get nasty…
(and you’re wrong on both counts)
Normal
August 24th, 2009
2:01 pm
Mrs. Godzilla
August 24th, 2009
1:52 pm
I saw it on page 59, lower right hand corner, small type….
Paul is the Walrus, The Walrus is dead…….
GAWD, Mrs G…I was reading it backward and saw the same thing….
RealityKing
August 24th, 2009
2:06 pm
It’s better to pay HUGE amounts on private insurance that’s proven to return world class quality than pay the same HUGE amounts on increased government control that’s proven to return second class quality.
DoggoneGA
August 24th, 2009
2:08 pm
” increased government control that’s proven to return second class quality.”
Proof please.
Mrs. Godzilla
August 24th, 2009
2:09 pm
Paul
Well it sure isn’t Ringo the walrus…..
Paul
August 24th, 2009
2:11 pm
Mrs. Godzilla
But that has a better ring to it!
Mrs. Godzilla
August 24th, 2009
2:11 pm
Reality King
Fortunately, you’ll be allowed to keep writing those big checks!
We are delighted you can have that opportunity.
I prefer the All American Option…..All Americans covered…..
Paul
August 24th, 2009
2:14 pm
Mrs. Godzilla
[[I prefer the All American Option…..All Americans covered…..]]
what of those we’ve encouraged to come here by other than legal means? We’re already covering them…
AmVet
August 24th, 2009
2:19 pm
Then explain this:
WASHINGTON – Veterans continue to be more satisfied with their health care than the average American, according to an annual report on customer satisfaction that compares the Department of Veterans Affairs (VA) health care system with private-sector health care.
The ratings came in the annual American Customer Satisfaction Index (ACSI), which ranks “customer satisfaction” with various federal programs and private-sector industries.
You can’t.
There is no rational answer.
And I suspect even you know it.
And as one who has had their life saved by the “inferior” VA I can tell you on a scale of one to ten, they are a ten.
From the very beginning of my emergency to this day, they are FAR AND AWAY superior to anything I ever experienced in the private sector. There simply is no comparison. And I can give you MANY specific reasons to support this fact.
And it is my considerable experience that the people in the VA – doctors, nurses, support staff, hell even the valet parking attendants – are to a man highly motivated to help veterans and are exceptionally considerate and qualified.
Yes, given your preferred method, I suppose I could go to some doctor’s office, wait 45 minutes or more beyond my scheduled time, be essentially ignored by a disinterested staff, pushed through to the doctor for a ten minute “consultation” (if I’m lucky) and then forced to make immediate payment of an exorbitant nature.
Great. I’m glad you’re thrilled. You can have them.
Again, I encourage you to talk with a number of real vets and educate yourself, rather than parrot corporatist fear-mongering…
stands for decibels
August 24th, 2009
2:20 pm
Jay, I saw nothing in the booklet that merits the sort of savagery seen in that WSJ hit piece you’d linked.
Beyond that, I could say something about the sort of people who would willingly exploit the fears of wounded veterans for political gain, but I don’t want to get a lifetime ban from this joint. (Yet.)
RealityKing
August 24th, 2009
2:22 pm
New England Journal of Medicine vs Returning Iraq Veterns
Hmmmmm…..
TW
August 24th, 2009
2:22 pm
Kinda seems a bit absurd to debate whether this phamphlet encourages the Vet to accept their death, when the GOP’s failure to fund the VA actually PUSHES them toward it. Not that the GOP pretends to give a rats backside about our soldiers, as was evident in the way they cheered the drunken frat boy who led so many of them to a needless death.
Mrs. Godzilla
August 24th, 2009
2:23 pm
Paul
We could just let the bodies stack up, but it’s so messy.
Paul
August 24th, 2009
2:24 pm
AmVet
Are you seriously trying to convince us that ever time you went for something even as minor as a hangnail that the staff did not try to exert subtle, nefarious pressure for you to refuse treatment and go home and die? Do you really expect us to believe that?!!? ‘Cause the VA was nothing more than a trial run for socialized nationalistic health care plotters to see if the could fool the people and implement their nefarious scheme!!!!!!!!!
(was I supposed to use all capitals in that to make it more convincing?)
electrician
August 24th, 2009
2:25 pm
good link jay..just to clarify the living will..it is part of the georgia advance health directive,that and a durable power of attorney will cover everthing needed,I had both done by a lawyer for 200 dollars and about an hour of my time.
Normal
August 24th, 2009
2:25 pm
Paul
August 24th, 2009
2:14 pm
——
PAUL, There is only one answer, just have a machine at certain places at the border so when they cross, they stop at these machines and pick up an automatic citizenship certificate, sign an oath of allegence and sign up for healthcare. Mail it in, get a job, pay taxes…the American Dream…see? Simple!
stands for decibels
August 24th, 2009
2:27 pm
Since it got whooshed to moderation, let me just try posting the final graf of a piece about the unheard oldsters…
I am not suggesting a solution to the polling problem. But I am suggesting that the contention that old people are worried about being deprived of all-but-limitless access to health care may not be supported by the oldest of the old, the ones who are suffering most from excessive intervention and the sometimes unwelcome care that is breaking the bank. At very least, before we declare what they think, we owe it to them to ask.
link’s here: http://newoldage.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/08/24/in-health-debate-the-oldest-voices-are-also-faintest/
Normal
August 24th, 2009
2:27 pm
Paul, your 2:24…they really don’t say anything, but they will leave you in a room with a gun and one bullet…;>)
RealityKing
August 24th, 2009
2:28 pm
The American Customer Satisfaction Index (ACSI) is an economic indicator that is produced by the National Quality Research Center (NQRC) at the University of Michigan.
Hmmmm….
Paul
August 24th, 2009
2:28 pm
Mrs. Godzilla
Naw. We could get everything out in the open and avoid all the stereotyping of the Left and Right, though……
lolololololol!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
electrician
August 24th, 2009
2:29 pm
health CARE directive
Mrs. Godzilla
August 24th, 2009
2:30 pm
Reality King
Respect the New England Journal of Medicine do you? Always or only when convenient?
“Rather than a weak alternative, a new public plan should be Medicare-like — national, governmental, and built on Medicare’s basic infrastructure.”
Here:
http://content.nejm.org/cgi/content/full/360/22/2269
Paul
August 24th, 2009
2:32 pm
Normal
Well, when you have lots of work and not enough workers and companies that want to cut costs and other countries with a trained workforce……
but the current economic situation is having a pretty sobering effect on the illegal population.
Still haven’t seen many Caucasian guys hammering roofs in the Texas sun, though. I have seen a couple mowing lawns, though.
TnGelding
August 24th, 2009
2:36 pm
Taxpayer
August 24th, 2009
1:54 pm
…or fully fund the VA. All the praise heaped on our service men and women is just talk.
I saw Secretary Duckworth on Fox yesterday with Chris Wallace and I thought she explained it pretty well:
http://www.foxnews.com/video2/video08.html?maven_referralObject=8568094&maven_referralPlaylistId=&sRevUrl=http://www.foxnews.com/fns/
Taxpayer
August 24th, 2009
2:37 pm
Paul is the Walrus
Damn. That explains so much.
Paul
August 24th, 2009
2:38 pm
Okay, enough fun.
Something has do be done, in this health care debate, about health care for illegals.
Denying treatment isn’t an option. Dems found out the response of people to providing full insurance to this group.
Congress is comprised of folks we send to Washington (given the number of career politicians and family dynasties, ’send to’ is likely not accurate) to fix these problems.
I read more good ideas here than in some of those House and Senate bills -
TnGelding
August 24th, 2009
2:39 pm
electrician
August 24th, 2009
2:25 pm
You sir, are a wise man. Congratulations.
Taxpayer
August 24th, 2009
2:41 pm
TnGelding,
I’m all in favor of canning some more military projects, such as F-22 production, etc., and diverting that money to something that really matters, such as our vets. I also think that our soldiers deserve to have pants, vests, radios, ammo, etc., over in Afghanistan. Too bad the Republicans do not feel the same way.
AmVet
August 24th, 2009
2:42 pm
Paul, I find it extraordinarily bizarre that the Republiconned try to assert that the VA is trying to kill veterans. Either when they get aged or by denying treatment to them when they are younger.
And they are not even being facetious!!!
Seriously, what f&cking planet do these morons live on???
They are so irrationally invested in their neo-conned ideology that no matter how much evidence, data, facts, numbers and actual experiences, they choose to simply ignore all of it.
But then this is true for the repudiated reality averse no matter the topic, I suppose.
And yet these yellow chest-pounders are the very ones who see to it that there are a zillion vets that need care! Many horrifically wounded in the BushCo Crusades. And many more scarred invisibly due to the trauma of just trying to stay alive day after day so that Hlaiburton adn BlackWater can laugh all the way to he bank.
They are not only not interested in continuing to make it an excellent organization, they’d like to shut it down completely.
To which I say very loudly, screw you b@st@rds.
Support the Troops, fear-mongers…
Mrs. Godzilla
August 24th, 2009
2:43 pm
House bill stipulates that those “not lawfully present” may not receive subsidies to purchase insurance. Under the “Individual Affordability Credits” section of the America’s Affordable Health Choices Act of 2009:
SEC. 242. AFFORDABLE CREDIT ELIGIBLE INDIVIDUAL.
(a) DEFINITION. —
(1) IN GENERAL. — For purposes of this division, the term ”affordable credit eligible individual” means, subject to subsection (b), an individual who is lawfully present in a State in the United States (other than as a nonimmigrant described in a subparagraph (excluding subparagraphs (K), (T), (U), and (V)) of section 101(a)(15) of the Immigration and Nationality Act) —
[...]
SEC. 246. NO FEDERAL PAYMENT FOR UNDOCUMENTED ALIENS.
Nothing in this subtitle shall allow Federal payments for affordability credits on behalf of individuals who are not lawfully present in the United States.
Senate HELP bill excludes those “not lawfully present” from federal funding. Under the “Making Coverage Affordable” section of the Affordable Health Choices Act:
(h) NO FEDERAL FUNDING. — Nothing in this Act shall allow Federal payments for individuals who are not lawfully present in the United States.
BOTTOM LINE…..we aren’t going to give them health insurance, but we are also not going to let the bodies pile up.
Paul
August 24th, 2009
2:44 pm
Taxpayer
[[Too bad the Republicans do not feel the same way.]]
Why, on the area of Defense spending, do you take the view it’s only the Republicans who are in favor of adding billions and billions of dollars more each year?
Democratic politicians are indistinguishable from Republican politicians on this matter.
Paul
August 24th, 2009
2:47 pm
Mrs. Godzilla
See, that’s what I mean about politicians not having an honest debate.
Are Democratic politicians really saying that they’re going to change current Federal law so that when an illegal shows up at an emergency room with an horrific injury or a sick child that they’re going to be denied treatment?
If not, then how’s it any different than what we have now? Except for the obfuscating language?
Paul
August 24th, 2009
2:48 pm
AmVet
“Their policies are the ones that make the VA treatment centers necessary.”
another self-evident gem -
TnGelding
August 24th, 2009
2:50 pm
This site could use your input:
http://blogs.ajc.com/business-beat/2009/08/24/should-special-provisions-be-made-for-a-social-security-increase/
TnGelding
August 24th, 2009
2:52 pm
Taxpayer
August 24th, 2009
2:41 pm
It’s a disgrace.
ncgreybr
August 24th, 2009
3:01 pm
Let’s face it. ANYONE can read ANYTHING they want to into this pamphlet. I prefer to read that everyone should have end of life counseling. Sarah Pakin can read it differently…even tho she proclamed April 16, 2008 as end of life counseling day in Alaska. (Even tho she has deleted this from HER homepage, she can’t delete it from the Alaska homepage.) I have a living will. My mother had one and when she finally had respitory problems at 89 she was quite emphatic that the hospital check her living will…and they obeyed her wishes.
Mrs. Godzilla
August 24th, 2009
3:02 pm
To my knowledge no D OR R politicos are calling for letting the bodies
pile up.
Thank heavens for that!
david wayne osedach
August 24th, 2009
3:03 pm
The US military doesn’t have much use for soldiers who can’t fight.
AmVet
August 24th, 2009
3:08 pm
And the beat goes on…
Minneapolis — One argument against a public insurance option in the current debate over health care is that government typically isn’t as efficient or proficient as the private sector. But some say that the Department of Veteran Affairs medical care is actually an excellent example of how the government is leading on health care quality and cost.
A third of the nation’s 24 million veterans get their health care from the VA. Most qualify because they have an injury or illness that is in some way connected to their military service.
http://minnesota.publicradio.org/display/web/2009/08/17/va-clinic-care/?refid=0
and
Mr. President, over the past 10 years, VA has made tremendous strides in its delivery of health care. In fact, VA’s quality of care currently surpasses that of the private sector, according to several notable studies.
Though VA has been able to provide high-quality care despite less than generous budgets, we cannot count on that holding true. Indeed, if the Administration’s proposed cuts for VA care come to fruition, VA will no doubt begin to lose its footing. The President’s budget offers a very modest increase for VA care ? one that does not even cover medical inflation.
Veterans groups are united in saying that the proposed budget is not sufficient. The Disabled American Veterans has called the Administration’s budget, ?one of the most tight-fisted, miserly budgets in recent memory.? The Paralyzed Veterans of America says that ?this budget shortchanges America’s sick and disabled veterans.?
The President’s budget calls on VA to save some $600 million by squeezing efficiencies out of the system. I have been to VA hospitals and clinics, and I can tell my colleagues that $600 million worth of efficiencies are not possible without cutting staff and services, the very services that have made VA care excellent.
As many of my colleagues know, VA already obtains some of the best prices on pharmaceuticals. VA’s costs are far below retail prices ? in some cases 55 percent of average prices. It is unfortunate that the Administration does not believe that Medicare’s costs would be lowered if the government could negotiate with drugmakers. VA has proven that it works. My point is, Mr. President, that there really aren’t any more efficiencies to be gleaned from VA drug purchasing.
http://veterans.senate.gov/press-releases.cfm?action=release.display&release_id=32a8ff36-f663-4dba-bd00-df40ec4a9fba
Taxpayer
August 24th, 2009
3:09 pm
Paul
August 24th, 2009
2:44 pm
Taxpayer
[[Too bad the Republicans do not feel the same way.]]
Why, on the area of Defense spending, do you take the view it’s only the Republicans who are in favor of adding billions and billions of dollars more each year?
Democratic politicians are indistinguishable from Republican politicians on this matter.
What! Sounds like you and Saxby would make good golf buddies. Y’all could complain to each other about Obama’s efforts to cut out some waste in the DoD such as F-22 production. By the way, do you have a list of Republican bills that actually reduced the DoD budget. I can’t seem to find mine.
TnGelding
August 24th, 2009
3:11 pm
Refresh, please!
Normal
August 24th, 2009
3:13 pm
To my knowledge no D OR R politicos are calling for letting the bodies
pile up.
Thank heavens for that!
Really! What if the Sanitation Departments went on strike, and trying to deside, recycle or trash, recycle or trash…just too stressful
Redneck Convert (R--and proud of it)
August 24th, 2009
3:15 pm
Well, it’s just a shame the librul Democrats are going to kill all the veterans that get old or too sick to be treated cheap. I reckon they have a Death Panel for them too, only the people on it wear uniforms.
I got a good Compassionate Conservative idea for how to handle these illegals that show up at emergency rooms to get treated because they won’t be able to get covered under Obamacare. We pay for getting them patched up just enough so they can walk or get hauled down to the basement. Us rednecks will be waiting in the basement with our pickup trucks. We load them on and haul them to the border and dump them over it. We won’t charge the guvmint nothing but the cost of gas. It will be our Patriotic Duty.
Them that got hired by somebody and were staying here need to get the bill for the treatment after we haul the illegals to the border. That will learn them to hire good American rednecks next time. It might could cost them a little more money and take twice as much time to get the job done, but it will be cheaper than paying that hospitle bill.
Have a good p.m. everybody.
Mrs. Godzilla
August 24th, 2009
3:15 pm
Normal
Excellent Point!
Maybe we can harvest organs…..
HavingMySay
August 24th, 2009
3:20 pm
I don’t think any human being would support a bill that would deny anyone service if they are ill or hurt; it doesn’t matter if they are here illegal. Most of you would treat a dog, but don’t want to care for another human being.
“What would Jesus do? regarding the healthcare debate.” Jesus was a healer and didn’t deny access to his healing power.
AmVet
August 24th, 2009
3:21 pm
WOW! What a complete surprise! A total shocker! I’m just speechless!
(CNN) — Adm. Michael Mullen, the highest-ranking man in the U.S. military, said the situation in Afghanistan is getting worse, as fresh indications emerge that President Obama soon could be asked to commit more American troops.
You military industrial complex types gotta be drooling that the Uppity Muslim Sans a Birth Certificate is gonna follow right after George of the Bungle.
Looks like your hopes for getting the pro-war voters back is not gonna happen in 2012.
Quagmire Part Deux, and it won’t even help the War Party. How ironic…
Taxpayer
August 24th, 2009
3:22 pm
“What would Jesus do? regarding the healthcare debate.” Jesus was a healer and didn’t deny access to his healing power.
He did have to ration it though.
Wyld Byll Hyltnyr
August 24th, 2009
3:24 pm
Obumbler’s socialist push and vertical deficit increases are forcing all of us to at least consider death as a more pleasant option. One can only wonder how many were pushed over the dge by seeing the horseheaded/Earl Campbell thighed Michelle in short shorts.
Paul
August 24th, 2009
3:27 pm
Taxpayer 3:09
Please reread my post. I understood you to say you would like to cut F-22 production and fund other stuff but Republicans keep pushing it.
My response was Democrats do, too. In fact, there’s no difference between the parties when it comes to pushing billions and billions and billions more each year for Defense.
How you get, from that, that I’m some Republican Saxby golf buddy is beyond me.
BTW – I can’t find my list of Democrats who’ve reduced the Defense budget, either.
Mrs. Godzilla
Still doesn’t address what to do with illegals and health care. Seems to me for all the bills, it’ll be essentially what we have now – leave them under the radar, using emergency rooms.
Why all the angst about getting care out in the open?
Off to see Brad Pitt and other vengeful Jewish US military types wreak mayhem and death and atrocities on Nazi noncombatants and to watch the audience cheer and applaud.
See, people do like it if it’s appropriately directed!
Later -
Northern Songs, Ltd.
August 24th, 2009
3:29 pm
AmVet – You mean like this nutball — http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/thu-august-20-2009/betsy-mccaughey-pt–1
Mrs. Godzilla
August 24th, 2009
3:38 pm
Paul
What part is not out in the open?
We know the HCR won’t pay for insurance and other laws forbid
turning away anybody in case of emergency.
That seems pretty open to me.
Taxpayer
August 24th, 2009
3:41 pm
Paul
August 24th, 2009
3:27 pm
Taxpayer 3:09
Please reread my post. I understood you to say you would like to cut F-22 production and fund other stuff but Republicans keep pushing it.
My response was Democrats do, too. In fact, there’s no difference between the parties when it comes to pushing billions and billions and billions more each year for Defense.
How you get, from that, that I’m some Republican Saxby golf buddy is beyond me.
BTW – I can’t find my list of Democrats who’ve reduced the Defense budget, either
Paul, please re-read my posts.
RealityKing
August 24th, 2009
3:42 pm
Meanwhile…, in another shocking revelation of incompetence government controlled healthcare.
At least 1,200 Gulf War veterans across the country panicked after have been mistakenly notified by the Veterans Administration that they suffer from a fatal neurological disease. – August 12th 2009
stands for decibels
August 24th, 2009
3:45 pm
Mrs. Godzilla
Still doesn’t address what to do with illegals and health care. Seems to me for all the bills, it’ll be essentially what we have now – leave them under the radar, using emergency rooms.
Why all the angst about getting care out in the open?
Paul I’d suppose that many years of powerful folk exploiting working-class fears of brown people, poor people, and poor brown people would play some role.
More specifically (and a touch more seriously) I think I know where you’re leaning and I lean there too. One of the few issues with which I tended to agree with the previous Administration, was in their efforts to provide a smoother path to citizenship for undocumented workers. (I think they wanted it for mostly-diametrically different reasons than I did, but sometimes you go with the allies you’ve got.) Of course Bush got whacked from the right and the left on that one.
Politically speaking, it may be asking too much this year to realistically address this issue.
AmVet
August 24th, 2009
3:47 pm
Northern, funny.
All I know is that this subject is enormously complicated.
And for the ill-informed and intransigent faithful on both sides to parse it down to slogans, bumper stickers and VA death panels and such, though de rigeur, is not useful.
I do know this much; the current system is a horrific joke in WAY too many cases. it is bungling, outrageously lacking in value and is fascistic.
Is this even arguable?
It is hopelessly screwed up in it’s present form and as is ALWAYS the case with the neo-cons they are not remotely interested in changing it. Not back in 1994, not today and not 20 years form now.
They are pathetic and this is what makes the Democrats so dangerous – that the other party is a laughingstock on no-ideas and non-vision…
Jake
August 24th, 2009
3:56 pm
We have 10 million non-citizens that still won’t have insurance, 8 million that would already be covered under Medicaid or SCHIP if they would just apply, 10 million that are only temporarily without coverage, mostly because they are in-between jobs, and 10 million that are young and healthy and just don’t want to pay premiums for something they don’t think they need. So tell my why we need this huge boondoggle again? Can’t we just make a few changes in law requiring insureres to pick up the less than 1 million that are currently out due to pre-existing conditions or high/known risks making them uninsurable?
Jackie
August 24th, 2009
4:03 pm
@AmVet
It appears to me many of those that do not believe the VA delivers some of the best health care for traumatic injuries have not been members of the military and fail to understand that many of the current emergency treatment techniques that save lives today came from the military triage experience.
One of the major shortcomings of the VA medical system is the limited number of physical facilities available to veterans. Often times, vets have to travel hundreds of miles to reach a facility.
joe matarotz
August 24th, 2009
4:08 pm
The only ‘acceptance’ of death here is that it is inevitable. That book had a ton of great information and other companies have published similar guides. Maybe someone who read it here will heed it’s advice. It’s right on the money.
Mrs. Godzilla
August 24th, 2009
4:13 pm
“”Despite a decade of promises, little has been done to fix the problem of preventable medical errors that kill nearly 98,000 people in the United States each year, a consumer group said on Tuesday.”
here:
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,520822,00.html
At least those 98,000 dead people didn’t get letters from the VA
coded incorrectly!
DoggoneGA
August 24th, 2009
4:14 pm
“He did have to ration it though”
No he didn’t. He sent his belivers out into the world to do as he did. That’s not rationing…that’s expanding.
AmVet
August 24th, 2009
4:14 pm
Jackie, ! just get a little (OK, a lot) PO’d when people try to badmouth th VA, ONLY to score political points. Especially to justify a failed postilion – that private sector care is superior.
As is ALWAYS the case the neo-conned faithful are living in the past. There was a time when the VA was a giant mess.
And, of course, there are still problems and horror stories. But for every one of those I’d bet you can find a dozen or hundred cases where the exact opposite has been true. And I am in NO way convinced that the ratios are any better at Northside, Piedmont, etc.
But a whole lot of people, and yes money, have dramatically improved the situation at the VA and now they actually are considered BETTER than the criminals who orchestrate the private care options.
And this makes the anti-government loons go batshiit crazy…
Jackie
August 24th, 2009
4:26 pm
@AmVet
I agree with you totally.
Politics should play not a part in this evaluation of services. We all pay for ALL medical treatment for EVERYONE, directly or indirectly.
It is in our best interest to offer everyone the ability to obtain medical coverage at the least cost.
TnGelding
August 24th, 2009
4:50 pm
AmVet
August 24th, 2009
3:21 pm
Isn’t it more like Vietnam?
josef nix
August 24th, 2009
4:53 pm
“… take your own look at the actual document and see what it actually says, in context. Then, if you so choose, report back here with your honest reaction.”
Did as ordered. It’s pretty clear and well put together. We’ve had this for years (have to given the Fierce Advocate and Company’s refusal to recognize our “next of kin” as such). If you want one, draw one up. If you don’t, then don’t. I suggest it if for no other reason than consideration for those who would be left making decisions for you. It’s good manners if nothing else.
Ray
August 24th, 2009
4:54 pm
The saddest part about the childish GOP behavior under Bush is simply that they still couldn’t get it done. If you’re going to cheat, at least win. Otherwise, you define pathetic.
retiredds
August 24th, 2009
4:55 pm
AmVet, I with you all the way. It seems that some, mostly conservative (nominal only these days) have an agenda to defeat ANY health care reform. Your bringing us not only the facts, but your own VA experiences, will not sway them. There are many of us out here, yes, in Georgia too, who know what they’re up to. When it comes time to vote we’ll remember their tactics (fear, scare, intimidate, lie, etc.)
I will submit to you that they have a problem that will not go away anytime soon. They have been against anything that has been proposed on the economy, health care, the war, fiscal policy, the stimulus, the CARS program. I, for one, and that’s all I can speak for, am tired and frustrated by the likes of Sarah, Rush, Beck, Coulter, Newt, Saxby, Boehner, McConnell, the clown Braun, et.al. and their complete disregard for truth and integrity in the debates, flinging half-truths and misinformation like a “drunken sailor”. But, they have carved their line in the sand for all to see. And as the economy recovers, the Middle East very slowly improves, detente with N. Korea happens, better relations with China, and improved image of the US worldwide, they will be left in the dust again. No real loss for the rest of us though. As the old sage says, it you don’t have anything constructive to offer, keep you mouth shut.
josef nix
August 24th, 2009
5:00 pm
Jackie:
“It is in our best interest to offer everyone the ability to obtain medical coverage at the least cost.”
I respectfully disagree. It is our best interest to provide free, universal health care.
deegee
August 24th, 2009
5:01 pm
My father is a veteran that receives fabulous care from the VA hospital in Atlanta. My father has Alzheimer’s disease and has had plenty of private health care over the last few years. The doctors and administrators at the VA hospital are second to none.
I Report/ Vast White Wing Conspirator (-: You Whine )-:
August 24th, 2009
5:05 pm
I got your “recession is over” right here-
“Anybody who says that we are out of the woods or even moving out of the woods, has got to be lost at sea.”–Robert Reich, “This Week With George Stephanopoulos,” ABC News, Aug. 23
josef nix
August 24th, 2009
5:07 pm
“Anybody who says that we are out of the woods or even moving out of the woods, has got to be lost at sea.”–Robert Reich, “This Week With George Stephanopoulos,” ABC News, Aug. 23
Mixed metaphors, anyone?
Taxpayer
August 24th, 2009
5:16 pm
For eight years, the Bush administration obstructed investigations into a massacre carried out in the name of Americans in Dasht-e-Leili, Afghanistan.
Earlier this month, a representative from Physicians for Human Rights, the group that originally brought the incident to the attention of the Bush White House, met with officials from the new administration, which has reopened the investigation into the incident.
The massacre dates back to 2001. Two months after the September 11th attacks, in a rural corner of Northern Afghanistan, thousands of alleged Taliban and Al-Qaeda fighters surrendered to a coalition of United States Special Forces and Afghan forces led by the notoriously brutal warlord, General Abdul Rashid Dostum. They were told they would not be harmed. Soon after, they were stacked into metal shipping containers to be transported to a nearby prison. As numerous reports since 2002 have made clear, in increasingly gruesome detail, hundreds of prisoners never made it to the prison; they suffocated in the airless containers beneath the bodies of fellow prisoners — and were interred in an unmarked mass grave.
The Bush White House thwarted inquiry into the incident on three separate occasions and terminated a Department of Justice investigation that involved survivors of the incident interned at Guantanamo Bay. By contrast, the inquiry President Obama has commissioned could result in war crimes charges.
Darned zombies. They just won’t stay buried, no matter how much dirt gets thrown on ‘em.
Bud Wiser
August 24th, 2009
5:39 pm
Yeah Taxtaker, especially as long as morons keep going back and blaming Bush for everything they do not like, and keep digging them up.
I have the answer, of course, to this alleged ‘crisis’ in health care.
If they cannot pay, they cannot play. Let ‘em all die and then God will sort them out. The financial burden will be lifted if the government pays nothing for nobody.
Neat.
Clean.
Quick.
As we used to say in the quasi-military, “shoot the wounded.”
Pogo
August 24th, 2009
5:39 pm
Obama and his chum (yes, I said that right) are now, in an attempt at the old “bait and switch”, going to investigate the CIA handling of terrorists in hopes this will divert Americans attention away from what this loser’s agenda is really all about, socializing America. I hate to tell him, this isn’t going to work either because about 80% of America could give SHIITE less about what we do to terrorists that are trying to kill us. Obama; the gift that just keeps on giving. This is the most pathetic diversionary tactic I have ever seen a failing politican attempt. One thing is certain; he thinks that most of you out there are pretty dull witted. Judging from the shutin libs on this blog, I think he is right to a certain extent.
TnGelding
August 24th, 2009
5:53 pm
josef nix
August 24th, 2009
4:53 pm
Well, if it meets your approval, it’s okay. A lot of folks, including Chris Wallace, must not know what e.g. means.
This site is still lonely and could use some iput:
http://blogs.ajc.com/business-beat/2009/08/24/should-special-provisions-be-made-for-a-social-security-increase/
Disgusted
August 24th, 2009
5:53 pm
If they cannot pay, they cannot play.
Atta boy, Bud Wiser! Remind everybody why nobody with any feeling of humanity will ever vote for a Republican again. And keep warm while you’re huddled with the 22%.
I Report/ Vast White Wing Conspirator (-: You Whine )-:
August 24th, 2009
5:56 pm
Thomas Sowell sees right through the act-
He may think of it in terms of promoting “social justice” or making better decisions than ordinary people are capable of making for themselves, whether about medical care or housing or many other things. Throughout history, egalitarians have been among the most arrogant people.
Obama even gets away with saying things like having a system to “keep insurance companies honest”– and many people may not see the painful irony in politicians trying to keep other people honest. Certainly most of the media are unlikely to point out this irony.
Tom
August 24th, 2009
5:57 pm
In truth, the VA has long been overrated and too secretive. I spent far too many years dealing intimately with (them) to possibly think otherwise. Meanwhile, our dumbed-down, unknowing “patriots” and would-be “heroes” babble on about how “great” it all is. Duh.
TnGelding
August 24th, 2009
6:02 pm
I Report/ Vast White Wing Conspirator (-: You Whine )-:
August 24th, 2009
5:05 pm
You must be getting desperate using Reich to make your point. That’s why the stimulus is just getting started, to facilitate the recovery over 2 or 3 years. In the global economy the recession is over here except for the unemployed. The economy will grow thanks mostly to increased productivity. The deadwood has been removed.
DoggoneGA
August 24th, 2009
6:04 pm
“If they cannot pay, they cannot play. Let ‘em all die and then God will sort them out. The financial burden will be lifted if the government pays nothing for nobody”
Translation: money is more important than people