IBD still milking Hawking example, still coming up dry
Investors Business Daily, which recently published an editorial claiming that if physicist Stephen Hawking lived in the United Kingdom, “he wouldn’t have a chance,” has now acknowledged its error and written a response. It says, in part:
“Hawking, in response to a query from London’s Guardian newspaper that was apparently prompted by our editorial, was quoted Tuesday as saying: ‘I wouldn’t be here today if it were not for the NHS. I have received a large amount of high-quality treatment without which I would not have survived.’
We accept this testimony and good fortune. We will note, however, that in talking about his disability on his own Web site, Hawking makes no mention of NHS and instead says that since 1985, when he had a tracheotomy, he has had ‘24-hour nursing care … made possible by several foundations.’
Many other Britons may not be as fortunate, and we wonder how they might fare under similar circumstances in their later years.”
That is of course fair enough. It is true that many other Britons without Hawking’s resources and fame would not be that fortunate. However, the whole point of the IBD editorial was to compare the privately based US system favorably to the United Kingdom’s National Health Service. So, to reverse the question and paraphrase IBD, I wonder how many Americans in a similar situation would have had 24-hour nursing care since 1985 provided by a private insurance company.
The answer is zero, nada, none, null set. No American insurance company would have provided 24-hour-a-day care to someone in Hawking’s situation for 24 years. None. They would have — dirty word coming here — “rationed” the care they provided.
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76 comments Add your comment
TW
August 12th, 2009
10:23 pm
Those who oppose health care reform are the same ones who gave us four years of ‘w’.
Credibility much?
God forgive the ‘publican, he knows not what Limpballs makes him do.
TGT
August 12th, 2009
10:29 pm
TW: That would be 8 years of “W”– which look better and better every day.
IBD fact check
August 12th, 2009
10:36 pm
“A Brief History of Universal Health Care” by Stephen Hawking: ‘It works!”
md
August 12th, 2009
10:42 pm
“Those who oppose health care reform are the same ones who gave us four years of ‘w’.”
I’ll wager that most everybody sees a need for health care reform, its the solutions that are debatable, and this partisan solution is not the answer.
Taxpayer
August 12th, 2009
10:57 pm
IBD is just trying to figure out how to wipe that dried egg off its face. They’re just more tools of the insurance companies that have been made fools of also.
wowsers
August 12th, 2009
11:05 pm
http://tinyurl.com/odfl2z
Eric
August 12th, 2009
11:15 pm
Thank you for speaking the truth on this important matter.
RW-(the original)
August 12th, 2009
11:24 pm
The answer is zero, nada, none, null set. No American insurance company would have provided 24-hour-a-day care to someone in Hawking’s situation for 24 years. None. They would have — dirty word coming here — “rationed” the care they provided.
Fair enough and how does Obamacare improve things? Assuming the answer is that it doesn’t you’ve really wasted a lot of column space telling us the government doesn’t have any intention of deciding when or how we die once they become the service provider.
Mr. Snarky
August 12th, 2009
11:33 pm
What a bunch of dissembling weasels the IBD is…sort of like Grassely, Isakson, Palin, etc. Nobody wants to debate the health care bills on their merits. They just want yell “Socialist healthcare rationers” over and over and talk about “government run healthcare” which not something the bills are proposing. IBD says that the Democrats are trying to “clone the British and Canadian healthcare systems”. This is false. The bills are trying to make sure affordable coverage is offered to everyone. The govt is not going to be running hospitals any more than it is going to be running grocery stores. Critics complain about the cost of covering everyone, but the attempts to reduce the costs are demonized as rationing and pulling the plug on grandma to save money. The falsehoods abound. What a bunch of reprehensible weasels.
penhall
August 13th, 2009
12:26 am
I’ll debate the health care bills on their merits.
Fact #1: Medical outcomes are better in the US than in the UK or Canada, and for several common cancers, markedly better (300 to 600%)
Fact #2: The vast majority (75 -80%) of Americans have “satisfactory” health insurance, and ALL Americans get medical care when needed.
Fact #3: Of the “45 million uninsured”, ~25 million choose not to buy insurance, and ~12 – 15 million more are illegal immigrants. That leaves maybe 10 – 12 million who need health insurance.
Fact #4: There are absolutely things about the American health care system that can be improved, the question to ask is, does this require a complete government takeover of health care?
Fact #5: The private insurance options in the House health care bills would be forced to conform to the “health exchange” requirements within a period of 2 – 3 years (5 at the outside), at which time your ability to buy the coverage Of Your Choice goes away. Forever. For your children and grandchildren. Once it’s here, choice is gone.
Fact #6: The House bills require “health exchange” insurance companies (if there are any) to charge the same premium for everyone in a premium area (could be a city, state, region). If you work hard to preserve your health, you will pay the same as someone who doesn’t.
Fact #7: The House health care bill allows insurors to only differentiate premiums based on age, then only by a 2:1 maximum. So if Grandma pays $1200 a month, then 25 year-old Junior pays $600; or else Junior pays $200 and Grandma only pays $400. Neither one of these works.
Fact #8: The House health care bill includes all preventive and mental health care services in the all-inclusive coverage. Does any clear-thinking person not see this as extremely expensive? How much would my auto insurance cost if it paid for gas and oil changes? Wouldn’t it be in my interest to have the oil changed every 3000 miles, instead of the 7500 recommended?
Fact #9: I think we can all agree that the “End of Life Counseling” will not mean giving Grandpa a bottle of whiskey and a .45. That said, the reforms presented to date create entire new government bureaucracies to administer the various and sundry provisions instituted. People, we’re talking tens of thousands of government jobs here, each one of which is going to cost money and slow down health care delivery. Pick your favorite Federal Department, and multiply it by 5 – this is 1/7th of the US economy they’re going to have to keep up with. And this is supposed to save money?
Fact #10: President Obama swears he’ll keep the costs down, and “he means it.” OK, the Cash for Clunkers (CARS) has already gone over budget by 3X ($3 bil. vs. $1 bil.). How is Obama or anyone else in Washington going to stand in the way when the demand for services outstrips the budget? It is impossible for this not to result in massive tax increases OR severe rationing. People are rational, and when given incentives, e.g. CARS, they respond. Where is the money going to come from, or what gets cut??? It’s as simple as that.
There are many ways to improve the funding of health care without creating a single payer system. Make no mistake, that is what Obama wants – he has repeatedly said so in his political career. The scope of the House and Senate bills is a misguided, far-overreaching response to this “crisis”. Anyone who professes to believe otherwise is willingly pretending that up is down. The track record of government is terrible.
IMHO, the chances of this type of “reform” improving health care for most Americans is essentially zero. So the deal we’re offered is, accept basically the same or, more likely, worse care for basically the same, or more likely, more expensive costs; and oh you can feel good because we’re paying for the fraction we could have helped for less some other way. Such a deal. Can I get two?
travis
August 13th, 2009
1:09 am
Say hello to wait times for surgery, and deaths do occur during such wait times. Also say goodbye to one more reason people work hard.
USinUK
August 13th, 2009
3:52 am
“Say hello to wait times for surgery, and deaths do occur during such wait times. Also say goodbye to one more reason people work hard.”
darlin’, you already DO have wait times and rationing in corporate health care.
and “reason for people to work hard”??? so, it’s an individual’s fault if they’re laid off? it’s an individual’s fault when the insurance company decides to drop him for an inconsequential and irrelevant item he may not have included on his application? it’s an individual’s fault if he’s working 2 minimum-wage jobs just to put a roof over his and his family’s head and food in their bellies and gas in their car just so that they can GET to work and doesn’t have the hundreds of dollars for a health-care premium (much less the thousands of dollars for a deductible) … must be nice to live in such a black-and-white world …
W Swarbrick
August 13th, 2009
4:19 am
As a UK citizen may I make a few comments. The NHS is not perfect, no institution is. But it gets most things right.
There is no age discrimination within the NHS regarding treatment. Or, if there is, it is hidden very well. I can use the examples of several members of my family for this statement.
I suffer from diabetes. My treatment and my medication in the UK is free. I know how much the drugs cost because I am currently in South Africa where my medication costs me in the region of 80 pounds per month. No health insurer would touch me due to my age (57).
Two years ago I had four stents (to clear my arteries) put in free of charge by the NHS. The treatment was first class. I went into casualty suffering from chest pains, I was diagnosed, and treated soon after. I am now fine.
Mark Jones
August 13th, 2009
4:42 am
From over the Atlantic, I watch the US healthcare debate with some amusement and bewilderment, our UK NHS model has its flaws (as does every healthcare system) but it’s not the only model of universal healthcare out there either, better examples can be found in France, Scandinavia and Germany in my opinion, yet the critics of what you guys call ’socialised medicine’ seem to want a straw man to compare against, picking out the worst aspects of an individual system and portraying them as an inevitable consequence of all ’socialised’ systems.
As for the dreaded ‘rationing’, all systems feature this including the current US one, insurance companies do not cover every eventuality forever and those unable to get insurance for whatever reason find care further rationed by ability to pay. Yes there are some examples of long waits in the NHS (although far fewer than there used to be) and there are some examples of delays rolling out expensive new treatments when compared to the US but for the vast majority of people the vast majority of the time, the system works fine. And just like the US, people with the ability to pay can opt for private insurance or paid treatment anyway, the fact that so few do so probably gives a good indication of people’s general views on how well the NHS can meet their needs.
You can’t really get past the fact though that despite our notorious levels of binge drinking, higher levels of smoking than the US and a diet that is just about as unhealthy as yours, the average Brit lives longer (and stays healthier longer) than the average American while healthcare costs per person are less than half the level that Americans pay.
I don’t mind somebody criticisng this country or our health system at all if they stick to the facts and stay reasonable but some of the commentary over there is just ridiculous propaganda, heavily spun half-truths at best.
USinUK
August 13th, 2009
4:52 am
Thanks Swarbrick –
Some of the folks here may have heard me talk about my MIL who has suffered from crippling rhumetoid arthritis for the last 20+ years. The NHS has given her fantastic treatment, including free injections, physical therapy and is now scheduling her for surgery as the arthritis has moved to her back.
what has she owed on all this? £0.00
nada.
nuttin.
and, for the last couple of months, many of these visits have been house calls from her physician and/or his nurses … house calls … when’s the last time you heard a US GP doing that???
so, I’d like to echo Swarbrick – of course the NHS isn’t perfect (no system is) … but it provides excellent care – including regular preventative checkups, not just emergency care – to EVERYone and you never have to worry about going bankrupt because of an illness.
USinUK
August 13th, 2009
5:14 am
an interesting graphic from the Times:
http://extras.timesonline.co.uk/pdfs/tthhighpriceofhealth.pdf
Bud Wiser
August 13th, 2009
6:03 am
I am happy for you and your friends who have, according to you, benefited from NHS.
I also see that you duck behind that to avoid debating penhall on his issues with Obamacare, because you cannot debate a fact based issue. You dash behind an alleged feel good story that we are all supposed to believe as fact, keeping you from trying to congerr any sort of flimsy evidence for a flimsier proposal.
I particularly like where he says “President Obama swears he’ll keep the costs down, and “he means it.” OK, the Cash for Clunkers (CARS) has already gone over budget by 3X ($3 bil. vs. $1 bil.). The Moron Known as Obowo has already TRIPLED out over intial cost estimates, and this in a matter of WEEKS. Even the average village idiot democrat should be able to make some sort of dire connection between what that liar says it might cost, versus what it will cost.
Typical of the left – when confronted by facts, change the subject – the left cannot stand on truth or fact, just ‘help me feel good’ crap. If your stories are true, then good for you. Now, try to muster a little brain cell activity and debate the man.
I am eager to see you try to pull it off.
While I’m waiting, coffee is on the brew…….in Peru.
Bud Wiser
August 13th, 2009
6:29 am
Still waiting……..
That’s what I thought, I figured, I knew.
Lucy
August 13th, 2009
6:34 am
So the left can’t face that facts, eh Bud Wiser? By the sound of it, the right dosen’t seem to be dealing in facts anyway. Anyway, I suppose hiding behind (factual) ‘feel good stories’ is better than making up negative lies. Come on, it may mean an increase in taxes (Gasp! Oh no, we can’t have that!) but it means that more people gan get live saving treatment and emergency medical care where they may not have before.
I am British and currently living in the UK. I understand better than some that the NHS is not perfect as I have grown up in a family who work in many areas of the NHS (Nursing, General Preactice and Consultancy), but we are all glad that we have it. Our National Insurance Tax is a tiny amount compared to fully private insurance and at least if we need emergency care, we won’t have to worry about the ambulance costing us hundereds of pounds if we have failed to tick the right box on the insurance form.
And to address the absurd notion that a nationalised health care system means that people won’t work as hard, the Rowntree Foundation found that production decreases when people can’t afford healthcare as people become too sick to work. Granted thes report was published nearly 100 years ago but the social ideas of industrial Britain and modern America (both with heavey Capitalist ideals) are roughly the same.
I’m not entirely sure exactly why Conservatives in America do not want more nationalised healthcare, but I have a feeling that, deep down, it all comes down to Taxes.
USinUK
August 13th, 2009
6:39 am
Bud –
Fact #1 – he’s right – even according to the graphic I gave, cancer survivors fare better in the US. HOWEVER, not everyone gets cancer, now do they. And, in fact, if you look at child mortality and overall life expectancy, the US fares worse than the countries with nationalized health.
Fact #2 – yes, the majority of Americans have “satisfactory” health care … except for when they don’t (which, as has been stated on more than one occasion during this debate, can happen to anyone at anytime – whether it’s due to layoffs or due to insurance companies denying coverage). as for health care when it’s needed – 50% of respondents aren’t going to the doctor when they have a concern due to the cost. so, while they may be getting care when things escalate to an emergency level, they’re not getting preventative care.
Fact #3 – “25 million choose not to buy insurance, and ~12 – 15 million more are illegal immigrants. That leaves maybe 10 – 12 million who need health insurance.” first of all, citations???? but, I’ll play along, anyway. leaving out illegal immigrants, you’re still talking roughly 40 million people who NEED insurance (choosing not to buy insurance doesn’t mean they don’t need it – it just means that they’re spending their $400-500/month on “extravagant” things like food and shelter)
Fact #4 – this bill isn’t a complete government takeover, so the point is moot.
Fact #5 – even countries with nationalized health care still have choice, so again the point is moot.
Fact #6 – you’re currently doing that with health insurance via your group plan at work, so the point is moot.
Fact #7 – speaking as a woman of child-bearing age, it’s about frickin time someone addressed the VAST differences in premiums based on gender.
Fact #8 – does he really think that everyone is going to suddenly want to go to the doctor every few weeks, now?? again, speaking as a woman, once/year for my annual internal exam is more than enough, thankyewverymuch. as for preventative mental health – YAY!!! how many people have to suffer through addiction, abuse, and depression before we as a society start looking at preventing mental illness as important as preventing communicable diseases.
Fact #9 – yes, the government overhead IS cheaper than private insurance. see: medicaid costs (which are 10% of the cost of corproate insurance)
and, lastly, Fact #10 – C4C and health care = apples v. oranges. it’s similar to comparing quantative easing (also an economic stimulative program) with the department of defense.
I Report/ I Am The Mob :-) You Whine :-(
August 13th, 2009
6:42 am
Under a health care regime informed by Obama’s moral philosophy, the right to die will quickly become a duty to die; the right to abort a disabled child will become a duty to abort a disabled child. Look at the death panels in Holland, where, as one official there has put it, the “culture” decides who is worthy of continued care. These forecasts aren’t “scare tactics,” as Obama calls them, but an obvious recognition of what liberalism has already sanctioned in our lifetimes. -Nuemayr, AmSpec
Let’s call it the slimy slope, ew
D. Weasel
August 13th, 2009
6:58 am
What a bunch of dissembling weasels the IBD is…sort of like Grassely, Isakson, Palin, etc.
I resent the appalling defamation of my species, and demand an immediate retraction and apology.
penballs
August 13th, 2009
7:09 am
I’ll debate anything with my genius numbered list:
Fact #1: I am so brilliant and have so much to say that I think I need to write my own personal op-ed column.
Fact #2: Although I don’t know it, most people think I am know-it-all douchebag.
Taxpayer
August 13th, 2009
7:17 am
There is a Republican sponsored and approved proposal for end of life counseling in the health care legislation. That must be what the conservative Republicans are so scared of. The poor little war mongering cowards. They’re even scared of their own health insurance because it also deals with end of life. Poor things. Democrats need to take hold of a conservative Republican’s hand, after it is washed of course, and lead them around and show them that they do not need to be scared. It will be okay. Perhaps a consultation with your preacher will ease your fears.
Paul
August 13th, 2009
7:18 am
Unpicking the calculated lies in the latest IBD response:
“We also say that not everyone suffering from a debilitating disease is Stephen Hawking, and we hope our critics would acknowledge that. Hawking is a renowned theoretical physicist, university professor and best-selling author. It is doubtful any National Health Service bureaucrat would cut him off.”
IBD overlook the fact that Hawking’s treatment is exactly the same as anyone else’s. This is borne out by the fact that he was diagnosed as a student more than forty years ago – long before he was a renowned theoretical physicist, university professor and best-selling author – and that on US survival rates for the same disease he would have been dead and buried within five years of diagnosis.
“For example, many British women — whose breast cancer mortality rate is nearly twice that of American women — have been denied care in relative obscurity.”
Really? Notice how IBD very carefully avoid citing any sources for this outrageous claim which they know to be a lie. The NHS Breast Screening Programme provides free breast screening every three years for every single woman aged 50 and over in the UK. Treatment is aggressive and gold-standard. Curative treatments are not denied. Treatments which enable women to live with their breast cancer are not denied. The only treatments which are occasionally denied are certain end of life treatments which are at best able to extend life by a further few months .. treatments which give a low quality of life and which most people in the United States – even those who are insured to the hilt – are also denied. The focus is on death with dignity and quality of life over live at any cost .. even if that cost is suffering.
Does the US provide free breast screening?
“It’s easy to ignore the fact that data from the Organization for Economic Cooperation & Development, hardly a right-wing organization, show that the U.K.’s heart-attack fatality rate is almost 20% higher than America’s, and that angioplasties in Britain are only 21.3% as common as they are here”
This is an interesting claim when you consider that, according to the very same OECD’s latest statistics, we see that:
1) the UK’s premature mortality rate is 3,548/100,000 against the US rate of 5,066/100,000 – so that is almost 43% higher in the US – and continues to fall at a higher rate in the UK than in the US.
2) the UK’s premature mortality rate due to ischemic heart disease is 153/100,000 as against the US rate of 170/100,000 – so that is almost 11% HIGHER in the US, not the almost 20% lower claimed by IBD.
The OECD doesn’t report on the rates of angioplasties; so, given that IBD have carefully chosen to avoid sourcing this particular claim, one can only assume that it is dubious at best … or if it is true and well-sourced, then given the higher mortality rates in the US, that it is simply a sign that it is a much overused procedure by those keen to bill for their services.
I can only assume that the one carefully cherry-picked and then grotesquely twisted “heart-attack” statistic provided by IBD relates to the mortality rate from strokes – which in the UK is 58/100,000, against the US rate of 41/100,000. Not only are strokes nothing even remotely related to “heart-attacks”, but even allowing one act of creativity on the part of IBD, the heart disease mortality rate in the UK is still close to 15% higher in the US.
Add to that the fact that life expectancy in the UK is 79 years and above the OECD average – whereas in the US it is 77.8 and below the OECD average.
Unlike IBD, I am happy to declare that all my figures come directly from the OECD ‘2007 Health at a glance’ report.
“Or it’s easy to forget that in March, the U.K.’s National Institute for Health and Clinical Excellence (NICE) ruled against the use of two drugs, Lapatinib and Sutent, that prolong the life of those with certain forms of breast and stomach cancer.”
I have already shown that IBD’s claims relating to both Sutent and Lapatinib are a complete fabrication.
“So it’s no surprise to discover that while breast cancer in America has a 25% mortality rate, in Britain it’s almost double at 46%. Prostate cancer is fatal to 19% of American men who get it; in Britain it kills 57% of those it strikes. We are not making this up.”
But unfortunately they are making it up. Every last scrap of it – as borne out by the real OECD statistics.
“Avastin, a drug for advanced colon cancer, is prescribed more often in the U.S. than in the U.K., by some estimates as much as 10 times more.”
Given that this drug was only approved by the FDA in 2008 – may I add an expedited approval against the advice of the FDA’s own panel of advisors who voted 5 to 4 against approval, because of their concern that data from the clinical trial did not show ANY increase in quality of life or prolonging of life for patients – it is easy to produce lies and tortured statistics which show that a drug is used more where it has had an accelerated approval process, against somewhere where the drug hasn’t.
We can go on and on and on and no doubt IBD will continue to quote out-of-context statistics to make a desperate non-existent point. Yes, we have fewer MRI machines in the UK, but we also have a much higher population density are therefore much more likely to have an MRI machine closer to where we need it, when we need it.
The simple truth is that no matter how you look at the bigger picture, they are healthier and live longer in the UK – and that is despite spending barely one third of the tax dollars per head of population that is already spent in the US. That is the wonder of coordinated and patient centred care. Perhaps that is why, according to the OECD, suicide rates in the US are almost 100% higher than they are in the UK.
Is the NHS fat and bloated? Every man, woman and child in the UK gets 100% coverage for a cost to the tax payer of around $3,300 per head of population. The combined cost of Medicare and Medicaid in the US costs each man woman and child almost exactly the same in tax dollars. Add to the the cost of the VHA and the tax breaks offered on insurance – but not the costs of copays and actual insurance etc – and the US ‘parachute’ system already costs $7,000 in tax dollars per head of population. Which is really the more effective and efficient?
Paul
August 13th, 2009
7:22 am
I almost forgot … the NHS has a choice programme called Prostate Cancer Risk Management which EVERY single man gets free as a matter of right at any age (not the age of 75 claimed by the IBD article). That is far in excess of an empty recommended screening, which may or may not be performed IF you can afford it, or you are fortunate enough that your insurer chooses to pay for it. Most Americans quite simply don’t get what is recommended – we do in the UK.
I Report/ I Am The Mob (-: You Whine )-:
August 13th, 2009
7:24 am
You just knew this was coming-
The moderates have nearly no presence in the administration, its agenda, or the congressional leadership. Maybe Larry Summers, on paper. The president likes to talk to moderates, but he doesn’t ask too many to work for him. The internal exile of Paul Volcker speaks volumes. Obama can’t keep the moderate-man conceit going indefinitely.-WSJ
Obozo, living in his little radical left wing bubble.
ha ha
USinUK
August 13th, 2009
7:27 am
dang. someone give Paul a cookie.
well done, my friend!
I Report/ I Am The Mob (-: You Whine )-:
August 13th, 2009
7:30 am
It’s still tough to know whether this behemoth government takeover of heath care will actually pass. But two key markets are betting against it. First, over at the Intrade pay-to-play online betting parlor, the bid for the U.S. government health-plan contract is only 38 cents. That’s down from 50 cents in late July. Second, the share prices of big private health insurers have rallied in recent weeks. UnitedHealthcare is up 13 percent, Humana is up 12.4 percent, and Aetna is up almost 10 percent. These firms will be decimated if the government insurance plan passes. But investors are now predicting it won’t.
bwa
Tony Peck
August 13th, 2009
7:34 am
I am English marrried to a US citizen.
A freind is a highly qualified nurse who works as part of a team providing round the clock care for a young boy paralysed from the neck down. This care has been provided by the British NHS, and will continue for life.
My experience with the NHS has been very good, my last time being in an NHS hospital was last year when my grandmother was being treated for a stroke at the age of 100 years.
My experience of the US health care system good, but costly. When living in NY I paid $1,100 per month for health insurance under the COBRA scheme. This did not cover all costs as there was a co-pay system, where we still had to pay for treatment.
Fred
August 13th, 2009
7:40 am
Please keep up the good work weeding through the disinformation regarding health care reform. If you would like to help pressure Congress to pass single payer health care please join our voting bloc at:
http://www.votingbloc.org/Health_Bloc.php
Normal
August 13th, 2009
7:42 am
Tony Peck
August 13th, 2009
7:34 am
Tony, welcome to America, if you are still here. There is a line out of “West Side Story” that needs saying here…”Everything’s free in America…for a small fee, in America”.
Normal
August 13th, 2009
7:43 am
BY the way, Good Morning, y’all!
George American
August 13th, 2009
7:46 am
DON’T FALL FOR THE LIBERAL LIES!!! THE LIBERALS ARE JUST TRYING TO MAINTAIN THEIR HOLD ON GOVERNMENT BY GETTING PEOPLE ADDICTED TO GOVERNMENT HANDOUTS.
GET OFF YOUR LAZY BUTT, GET A JOB AND BUY THE INSURANCE OF YOUR CHOICE IN THE FREE MARKET!!!
TnGelding
August 13th, 2009
7:46 am
penhall
August 13th, 2009
12:26 am
Yeah, it’s wrong-headed. Wolf subbed for Larry King last night and he had an excellent interview with four doctors with different views. I’ll post it when it becomes available.
T. Finger
August 13th, 2009
7:48 am
I do not want my prostate checks delivered by some compassionless, big-fingered bureaucrat.
I be against government healthcare.
TnGelding
August 13th, 2009
7:49 am
travis
August 13th, 2009
1:09 am
And death comes during surgery and after surgery. Emergency surgery will not be delayed.
Turd Ferguson
August 13th, 2009
7:50 am
AARP has NOT endorsed any of ObamaCare. Once again our President fails to correctly read his teleprompter.
Turd Ferguson
August 13th, 2009
7:51 am
This ObamaCare is no more than a Govt PowerGrab.
Mrs. Godzilla
August 13th, 2009
7:51 am
Facts? We don’t need no stinkin’ facts!
Doggone/GA
August 13th, 2009
7:53 am
“We don’t need no stinkin’ facts!”
And if “we” do…we’ll make them up on the spot.
Tom
August 13th, 2009
7:54 am
Sounds to me that had the 47 million Americans without health insurance contracted Dr. Hawking’s affliction, they would have died. America needs health care reform.
USinUK
August 13th, 2009
7:55 am
I see all the maniacs are up this morning … has everyone done their morning stretch and had their bowl of bran??? (mmmm … bran … nature’s broom)
TnGelding
August 13th, 2009
7:55 am
USinUK
August 13th, 2009
5:14 am
The one good stat, cancer survival after 5 years, is what the opponents focus on.
stands for decibels
August 13th, 2009
7:56 am
AARP has NOT endorsed any of ObamaCare. Once again our President fails to correctly read his teleprompter.
Yup, here’s what the Kenyan prince said:
“AARP has endorsed Obamacare. We rockin’ da heezy fo’ sho’!”
Normal
August 13th, 2009
7:57 am
USinUK…This morning I stopped at Wafflw House…Need I say more?
Normal
August 13th, 2009
7:58 am
That’s WAFFLE! STUPID FST FINGERS!!!
Normal
August 13th, 2009
7:58 am
My keyboard suxz too
stands for decibels
August 13th, 2009
7:59 am
I stopped at Wafflw House…
Sounds like you were still chewing.
Taxpayer
August 13th, 2009
8:04 am
If some of our fellow conservative Republicans were to eat bran, what would become of them.
ByteMe
August 13th, 2009
8:04 am
Folks, it’s not about facts. It’s about fear. That’s the only reason disinformation about what’s in the bill is having any effect at all. Fear of “different” (and that includes Obama), fear of the “unknown”, fear of things they don’t/won’t/can’t understand. You can provide all the facts you want, but until you can summarize the details in a 1 page memo that is clear and concise and get past the notion that your facts are only “facts” (which the crazy wing has done a good job making sure that there’s a huge group of people out there who immediately distrust any reliable source of information), the fear-mongers are going to win the debate by bringing up nonsense and lies.
Get past the need for “facts” until you can break it down into small sound bites the huddle crazy masses can remember easily and get pumped about. And you can’t right now, because there are a bunch of competing bills running through Congress and no one is sure what’s going to be in the final bills. So the crazy liars are going to win for now.
People who know better are getting traction on the crazy idea that “death panels” will get created by the legislation. The regular media isn’t calling “BULLS**T” on them, so the lies will continue to echo around until enough people get fed up and start making fun of people who believe the lies instead of just trying to calmly refute them. Same with the birthers, the deathers are not going to be swayed by the truth, but they will be swayed by enough people telling them they’re bats**t crazy for believing such nonsense.
stands for decibels
August 13th, 2009
8:06 am
Oh, and good morning, rational people.
Should we make, oh, say 1/10 as much hay about the embarrassing polling out of NC that indicates ~12% aren’t sure if Hawaii is in the United States, as did the Right Wingnuttisphere over stupid John Ziegler “How Obama Got Elected by the Stoopit Coloreds” polling?
(Remember, their smoking gun was that stupid Obama voters couldn’t correctly identify some mis-step Joe Biden made in the 1988 primaries, and that they associated “I can see Russia from my house” with Bible Spice.)
Mrs. Godzilla
August 13th, 2009
8:07 am
I see that AARP has made no formal emdorsement of the plan.
And now the rest of the story….
Multimillion-Dollar AARP Campaign Busts The Myths Of The Health Care Debate
This week, AARP will launch the next phase of its Health Action Now campaign with a multimillion-dollar national advertising and grassroots push to ensure every American has a choice of doctor and dependable, affordable health insurance. The Association’s paid advertising-available online now-will run nationally on television, locally on radio, in print publications and online. AARP activists will also be in action in every state to ensure every member of Congress knows the 50-plus community wants action to fix what’s wrong with health care and preserve what’s right.
AARP’s advertising campaign will bust the myths some are spreading to frighten Americans, including false assertions that fixing the health care system will lead to rationed health care, a government takeover or even euthanasia.
“We won’t stand idle when opponents of health care reform attempt to scare or mislead the American people-and older Americans in particular-about what fixing the system really means,” said AARP Executive Vice President Nancy LeaMond. “The truth is we need to fix health care, whether it’s ensuring affordable coverage for Americans age 50 to 64 or improving benefits for people in Medicare. It’s time for the public to get the real facts.”
AARP will combine this effort with grassroots action by millions of volunteers and activists. AARP members will visit their representatives and senators in their district offices and attend events in support of health care reform. The Association will also host more than 80 events across the country, including dozens of town hall meetings with legislators and community leaders.
LeaMond added: “The opponents of reform will stop at nothing to derail the process and protect their own vested interests-even if it means misleading older Americans. We’re here to make sure everyone knows the facts and not the myths.”
One of AARP’s new print ads reads: “Special interest groups are trying to block progress on health care reform using myths and scare tactics. Like the myth that health care reform will give the government the power to make life-and-death decisions for everyone. That’s simply false. The fact is, no one, including the government or your insurance company, will be given power to make life-and-death decisions for anyone regardless of their age. Those decisions will be made by you, your doctor and your family.”
This round of advertising is scheduled to run through mid-September in national outlets and in select local markets. Television advertisements will appear on networks including CBS, Fox News Channel, Lifetime and MSNBC, while online ads will appear on web sites including CNN.com and ABCNews.com, as well as social networking sites.
USinUK
August 13th, 2009
8:08 am
Normal …
tell me what you had … and tell me slowly
and, while the Awful Waffle isn’t nature’s broom, it is nature’s lube – enough grease that everything sliiiiides to the exit (kinda like a good pratfall)
TnG –
“The one good stat, cancer survival after 5 years, is what the opponents focus on.”
of course they do … and, frankly, I don’t blame them – who isn’t afraid of cancer, so what a great stat to use for scaremongering. however, considering that Brits smoke, drink and eat WAY fattier foods than Americans and their longevity is STILL higher says LOADS …
(one of their Christmas dinner treats – sausages wrapped in bacon. I mean, talk about a heart attack from Santa!)
TnGelding
August 13th, 2009
8:08 am
Lucy
August 13th, 2009
6:34 am
You’re right. They’d rather pay exorbitant insurance premiums than another dime in taxes.
Taxpayer
August 13th, 2009
8:08 am
Get past the need for “facts” until you can break it down into small sound bites
A bumper sticker bullet list is about the maximum content that a conservative Republican can expect to absorb without getting all scared. And, by using the phrase “bullet list”, they get all warm and cozy and start feeling secure for some reason. Then, it is easier to get through to them.
USinUK
August 13th, 2009
8:11 am
oh, and you haven’t lived until you’ve had a “full English”, the great British breakfast … fried eggs, bacon, sausages, blood pudding, baked beans, tomato, mushrooms and toast with butter …
Bud Wiser
August 13th, 2009
8:12 am
So Lucy, where is your FACTUAL counterpoint? I can’t seem to find it; let me look over here….noooooooo. How about over there? Noooooo. Under the couch?
Still cannot find any factual rebuttal. And if you surmise its all about taxes, so what? How’s that nearly bankrupt Brit and Canadian govt thing working out for them do you suppose? You’re just like all your leftist idiot friends. You want something for FREE, something your lying leaders have said will cost money, but it won’t be YOUR money. Duh, the absolute ignorance is appaling.
Go take a leap into the irrelevant pool.
USinUK: #1 he is right.
#2 I might go so far as to revise that to say that they are satisfied with, as opposed to a ’satisfactory health care’. There is a larger differnece there, because of what it takes to make one satisfied with, as an subjective issue .
#3 His numbers are fairly accurate, as reported by many different media sources; I don’t think they’d all lie (except NBC), so his numbers should be accepted as accurate. And THIS is a point where many Americans become angry – The 25 million or so who choose not to buy insurance are expecting the free ride on someone else’s wallet, when in all likelihood they in fact CAN afford it, but they choose instead to buy those ‘fun’ personal things like a plasma TV, clothes, that vacation home; or make payments on a car, or a kids tuition, because taking out a loan would be too much trouble, and they know someone else is covering their six if they become ill or injured.
#4 Your either misinformed, a liar, or ignorant to the reality that there is a structure in place that will require movement over to the government plan in time because of the financial sanctions and penalties (taxes) imposed on those who do not comply.
#5 Yes, the choice is NHS or your first born.
#6 I reference point 3 where not everyone participates.
(side note) I like the way you ‘make moot’ things you cannot factually substantiate
#7 I agree
#8 Uh, preventing mental illness? You may as well try to prevent the sun from rising in the morning. Do you even KNOW anything about clinical depression? Anxiety disorders? Bi-Polarity? Saying you can supposedly ‘prevent’ these things from happening most assuredly makes it appear that you do not. UNLESS, you are fan of selective breeding or genetic engineering, mandatory sterilization of the mentally or physically challenged, and racial eugenics. It appears that your fearless leader has leanings in that direction.
#9 Been watching the news about cash for clunkers? How is that financial estimate effort working for them so far? And you TRUST the same people with staggering amounts of money potentially for that/ If so, you’re a biger fool than I thought.
#10 If you think that based upon what you had said prior, using the phrase ‘quantitative easing’ makes you appear smarter, thus legitimizing your positions, well, you are wrong.
Come back when you have some fact as opposed to feeling, thruth as opposed to fiction, reality as opposed to desired reality.
Thank you.
TnGelding
August 13th, 2009
8:13 am
I Report/ I Am The Mob
You Whine 
August 13th, 2009
6:42 am
Let’s call it paranoia.
Normal
August 13th, 2009
8:14 am
USin UK….three eggs, over easy….sausage…..grits…raison toast…and….and…peacan waffle…yummy!
Normal
August 13th, 2009
8:19 am
I posted this upstairs too, but it’s worth it to do it here. a genuine
way to defeat terrorism…so cool
http://www.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/meast/08/13/generation.islam.gaza.muppets/index.html
USinUK
August 13th, 2009
8:31 am
Bud –
#1 – and if everyone had a 100% likelihood of cancer, that would be a problem. but it isn’t.
#2 – again, they receive satisfactory healthcare/are satisfied with their health care UNTIL THEY AREN’T, until they have something that isn’t covered or until they have an astronomical co-pay.
#3 – first of all, I accepted his numbers (despite lack of citation). secondly, if you are making minimum wage (7.25/hour), then $400-500 for a premium + $4000 deductible (as cited by Sistah Souljah on Monday) is prohibitively expensive. Heck, even if you make 10/hour, the premium is still roughly 50% of your take-home pay.
#4 – this plan is in no way a single-payer/nationalization plan. so, you’re paranoid, deluded or both if you call this a gov’t takeover.
#5 – as usual, you don’t know of which you speak. in the UK, you can get health insurance for a fraction of the cost in the US and you can pay cash – again, for a fraction of the cost for the same treatment in the US – far, FAR from “your firstborn”, drama queen. (case in point – my hubby went in for a non-emergency echocardiogram – it cost less than USD 400 … first of all, you try to get a non-emergent echo cardiogram on the same day that will, secondly cost less than that)
#6 – ” I reference point 3 where not everyone participates” – you completely missed the point. pen was miffed because this group policy “penalizes” the well by grouping them with the sick. any group plan you get through your job currently does that, so his point is moot.
“I like the way you ‘make moot’ things you cannot factually substantiate”
dearest – everything I’ve said is fact that can be substantiated – case in point, look up the facts about group plans through your work.
#8 – okay, maybe “preventative” isn’t the best word – but what do you call treatment before things reach critical mass? ideally, better mental health care will help identify and treat people with depression, substance abuse, etc, before they become too ill and either try to harm themselves or harm someone else.
#9 – you’re confusing your points. the expenses for C4C isn’t related to overhead expenses (which was Pen’s original point – the size of govt). which is why I brought up medicare – the administrative costs for medicare are 10% of those for insurance companies.
#10 – I’m sorry you don’t seem to understand big words – that’s why I tried to talk it down for you a bit, saying it was apples and oranges … (I figured THAT, you should understand).
USinUK
August 13th, 2009
8:32 am
Normal – … your 8:15 … my knees just went weak … but, but, but … no hash browns???
I Report/ I Am The Mob (-: You Whine )-:
August 13th, 2009
8:42 am
RASMUSSEN POLL: Obama Approval Rating Falls to New Low: 47 %… Developing…
bwa
Mark Jones
August 13th, 2009
8:47 am
Mmmm, sausages wrapped in bacon, black pudding, I’m drooling.
Sam Adama
August 13th, 2009
8:47 am
Bud Wiser – I see very little in the way of facts in your original post. You are using weasel words to try to lend some credibility to your opinion. At the end of the day an opinion is all you have.
The fact that you posted a list, suggested that you had “won” twenty minutes later when no-one replied and then became insulting to the one person who did bother to reply tells me quite a bit about you.
If you invite debate and then cannot conduct it like an adult then please refrain from trying – thanks.
TnGelding
August 13th, 2009
8:47 am
I Report/ I Am The Mob (-: You Whine )-:
August 13th, 2009
8:42 am
Polls are for trolls. Who cares? Maybe if you can take back Congress you can impeach him for daring to take on contentious issues.
I see his union goon squads couldn’t find you last night. Where are you holed up?
I Report/ I Am The Mob (-: You Whine )-:
August 13th, 2009
9:01 am
New jobless claims rise unexpectedly to 558,000
ew
Paul
August 13th, 2009
9:29 am
Twitter and the media in the UK have really gone ballistic over this. Thanks in no small part to IBD, and their unscrupulous like, they have unintentionally created an environment where their own outrageous lies in defence of an uncaring America aren’t going unnoticed and unchallenged. Obama couldn’t have planned this better if he had tried
ByteMe
August 13th, 2009
9:33 am
Paul: that’s the problem with liars in a well-connected world. Eventually they “jump the shark” and everyone in the world can see them exposed as liars.
The question is: when will the media start pounding the liars for lying / perpetuating lies? When will the “false equivalence” of the “liberal” media finally end and they start to call “BULLS**T” on the liars?
Paul
August 13th, 2009
9:49 am
President Obama presented the Medal of Freedom to Ted Kennedy’s daughter, as the senator himself battles cancer and – even with his privileged level of care care – is far too ill to attend.
Meanwhile, a paraplegic wheelchair bound ALS sufferer, who has apparently defied the odds under socialised medicine and outlived his prognosis by more than forty years, is healthy enough to travel across the Atlantic to receive his in person.
It really does sum it up in a nutshell.
Stephen Hawking: "I would not be alive if not for the NHS" - XDTalk Forums - Your HS2000/SA-XD Information Source!
August 13th, 2009
11:22 am
[...] 24 years. None. They would have
Homer
August 13th, 2009
11:26 am
Fact #99, Penhall’s facts are fiction. He must have pulled them from the back of a comic book or the Rush Limpball show.
Bud Wiser
August 13th, 2009
12:06 pm
Sam A. nobody asked you to butt in, so butt out.
Take your opinion and put it from whence it came.
henny youngman
August 13th, 2009
3:05 pm
Democrats, realizing the success of the President’s “Cash For Clunkers” rebate program, have revamped a major portion of their National Health Care Plan.
President Obama, Speaker Pelosi, and Sen. Reed are expected to make this major announcement at a joint news conference later this week. I have obtained an advanced copy of the proposal which is named….
“CASH FOR CODGERS” and it works like this… Couples wishing to access health care funds in order to pay for the delivery of a child will be required to turn in one old person. The amount the government grants them will be fixed according to a sliding scale. Older and more prescription dependent codgers will garner the highest amounts.
Special “Bonuses” will be paid for those submitting codgers in targeted groups, such as smokers, alcohol drinkers, persons 10 pounds over their government prescribed weight, and any member of the Republican Party.
Smaller bonuses will be given for codgers who consume beef, soda, fried foods, potato chips, lattes, whole milk, dairy products, bacon, Brussel sprouts, or Girl Scout Cookies.
All codgers will be rendered totally useless via toxic injection. This will insure that they are not secretly resold or their body parts harvested to keep other codgers in repair.
Paul M. McLaughlin
August 13th, 2009
7:03 pm
Stop Child Abuse NOW! since 1975 to 1999 from Donora, Pennsylvania to Portland, Oregon by Paul M. McLaughlin a Handicapped and Survivor from 20 years of severe childhood abuse along with his twin sister. Paul and Paula born on October 13, 1948 in Donora (Pittsburgh), Pennsylvania. Paul and Paula’s older brother and sister were NOT abused and the reason is that the father is not the father of Paul and Paula.
Paula M. McLaughlin passed away on August 27, at the age of 59 from McKeesport, Pennsylvania. Have kidney stones since 1970’s.
Paul and Paula abused severly by the mother, not by the father.
Clothes removed and placed on top of a warm, hot stove burner, beaten with a stick/belt without wearing clothes, eat hot black powder pepper, forced to eat vomit, stand in corner of room for long hours without sleep or rest, ennama treatments you not want to read about, large, deep, scars on face, from beatings with a stick. Ran away from home to get away from my abusive mother since I was a young child. Neighbors, parents, teachers have notice Paul and Paula markings on the face and have not said anything of where or how of these markings. Beaten 2 to 4 times per day without help from any one.
Paul M. McLaughlin survived 20 years of severe abuse and almost lost his life TWO times as an infant and that it made Paul into a handicapped in slow learning. Paul graduated from the Ringgold School district in Donora, Pennsylvania in 1970 at the age of 21, SPECIAL EDUCATION. Paul got drafted into the army and cheated on written test at the Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania draft board to get into the army. Paul went into the army at Fort Dix, New Jersey and transfer to Fort Lewis, Washington.
In 1972, Paul received an honorable discharge and moved to Portland, Oregon. A elderly woman discovered Paul and taught Paul to read better, writing, typing machine. In 1975, Paul wanted revenge on Child Abuse and began his One Man Campaighn on Child Abuse.
Paul had travel over 25,000 miles across the U.S. with Open Forums, radio talk programs (20 of them) and made a television commercial for abused children, Paul raise non profit fund raising for abuse children in each state, town, cities across the U,S.
Since 1999,
Paul taken ill with MS and had to relearn to walk, speaking, vision return and many other illness with MS. Paul have epilepsy since 1980’s and is control by medication. PLEASE HELP OTHERS TO GET POSITIVE REVENGE ON CHILD ABUSE INSTEAD OF DOING HARM TO SELF, CHILDREN AND ADULTS. Paul has done it. Why Can’t Other Do The Same?
Loved In The Midst Of Suffering
http://www.efn.org/~scan/story5t.html
Paul’s Web Page Since 1995
http://www.efn.org/~scan
scan@efn.org
Paul M. McLaughlin
Stop Child Abuse NOW!
298 Hunington Ave.
Eugene, Oregon 97405-4055