It doesn’t take Stephen Hawking to figure this one out
The conservative opinion magazine Human Events was reputedly Ronald Reagan’s favorite read, and to this day fancies itself the house organ for the hard-right intelligentsia. Among those published regularly in its pages are such luminaries as Newt Gingrich and Ann Coulter.
In my email this morning is a message from Human Events regarding the health-reform debate, warning of “government-forced extermination” of unborn children, grandmothers and grandfathers:
Grandmas and Unborn Babies Face Extermination by Obama’s “Health” Care Plan
Investors Business Daily has just exposed the Achilles’ heel of Obamacare, that hostile, socialist government takeover of your hospital, doctors, children, and grandparents. In an editorial entitled, “How House Bill Runs Over Grandma,” the editors report how President Obama was personally confronted by a North Carolina woman asking if “everyone that’s Medicare age will be visited and told they have to decide how they wish to die.”
In response Obama joked that he hadn’t yet hired enough bureaucrats to conduct such an operation, yet he could not deny the New York Post’s discovery the House bill “compels seniors to submit to a counseling session every five years (and more often if they become sick or go into a nursing home) about alternatives for end-of-life care” (pages 425-430). In other words, your grandmother will be told, when insufficient resources are rationed to young people, that her duty to die begins with mandatory “end-of-life counseling,” or as Obama explained, “encourage the use of living wills” that terminate otherwise salvageable lives prematurely through signed “do not resuscitate” (DNR) legal releases.”
In other words, these people have gone full-blown lunatic on us. Curious, I also looked up the Investors Business Daily editorial cited by Human Events. Published a week ago Friday, it is chock full of lies, distortions and other foolishness, such as the claim that the House bill would compel senior citizens to undergo mandatory euthanasia counseling every five years.
But my favorite part of the editorial deals with the British health-care system, which if you believe IBD is basically condemning the old and disabled to die.
“People such as scientist Stephen Hawking wouldn’t have a chance in the U.K., where the National Health Service would say the life of this brilliant man, because of his physical handicaps, is essentially worthless,” the editorial claims.
Of course, that same Stephen Hawking who wouldn’t have a chance in the United Kingdom was in fact born in the United Kingdom, has lived his entire life in the United Kingdom and lives there still today, at the ripe old age of 67. (He was in fact hospitalized earlier this month.) Hawking is, you might say, living, breathing proof that these people are first-class fools.
UPDATE: Investors Business Daily has corrected its editorial, removing all mention of Stephen Hawking. And Hawking himself has responded, telling the UK’s Guardian:
“I wouldn’t be here today if it were not for the NHS. I have received a large amount of high-quality treatment without which I would not have survived.”
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555 comments Add your comment
zeke
August 11th, 2009
10:35 am
Jay,
The only full blown lunatics are democrats who are doing their best to change the USA into an image of Soviet Russia, make everyone from the major corporate ceo to the hamburger flipper earn the same wage, take over various private corporations, and confiscate the healthcare industry because it accounts for about 20% of the US economy! A result is the trashing of the model that has mad us the shinning light in the entire world! Capitalism is the only successfull model! Socialism has failed everywhere it has been tried! China only looks successfull because they have allowed capitalism to flourish, even under the totalitatian communist rule! Get these things straight! No one has a right to a house! No one has a right to healthcare! No one has a right to a free education! The only rights we have are spelled out in the Constitution! The only powers the government has are spelled out in the Constitution! Obama and the demogogs have violated most articles of the Constitution and you in the liberal media will not call their hand at any turn!
Bill Mack
August 11th, 2009
10:48 am
Jay, You are the living and breathing proof that liberalism is a mental illness. You need help.
TnGelding
August 11th, 2009
10:55 am
Mittra
August 11th, 2009
10:01 am
It shifts the burden to Social Security recipients.
Neil
August 11th, 2009
11:00 am
To everyone with agendas trying to state Hawking’s wealth as his reason for surviving. He was diagnosed in 1965, was unable to feed himself around 1974 and published his first hit book in 1988. That’s a good 23 years without any excessive wealth. Go NHS. The UK also has a longer life expectancy than USA citizens, as do Canadians.
itstrue
August 11th, 2009
11:04 am
Zeke and company:
Does anyone really think Obama and the Democratic party want to turn this country into the Soviet Union or Maoist China? Is that even possible in a democracy full of mostly literate people? Some people will believe anything.
At ‘worst’, even if they had absolute power, they’d make this place look a little more like Canada. Ever been there? Myself, I’d vote for that.
As for ‘rights,’ the constitution was written broadly, to allow for the expansion of federal responsibilities over time (without amendments), so long as they are in line with:
Article I, section 8 of the U. S. Constitution, which grants Congress the power to “lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts, and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common defense and general Welfare of the United States.”
If you want to talk constitutional violations, I’d be happy to get a list going from the previous 8 years.
We can argue about how or why, but health reform is constitutional. No one is a socialist or a totalitarian here. Unless you’re a fan of anarchy, or want to go back to homesteading, health, education, defense, roads, communications, and a bunch of other stuff all need taxes to be levied and the state to help in coordinating it all.
Personally I like civilization and am willing to pay for it.
Okay, Republicans, if you want to be taken seriously… | Carter's Little Pill
August 11th, 2009
11:27 am
[...] someone else talking about this [...]
Jackie
August 11th, 2009
11:38 am
For all those that believe that health care reform is “socialist”, would it not be a good idea if those naysayers would opt out of the Federal, State and local tax systems. By opting out, they would put themselves on a pay-as-you-go system for EVERYTHING; schools, roads, water, sewer, defense, postal, civil protection, etc.,
This option would extend to health care; every health option this person consumes would be paid for directly; no insurance, no hospital, no doctors, no medical emergencies only paid via cash.
I think this approach would allow the rest of us to have a rational conversation relative to what is required to put plans in place to begin solving this problem.
Trotsky
August 11th, 2009
11:40 am
“A result is the trashing of the model that has mad us the shinning light in the entire world”
HAHAHAHA… I’m guessing you’ve never been abroad, right?
Lisa
August 11th, 2009
11:47 am
Would you listen to Republican Johnny Isakson?
http://voices.washingtonpost.com/ezra-klein/2009/08/is_the_government_going_to_eut.html#more
Steve
August 11th, 2009
11:49 am
If Obama’s plan is so great, why don’t Obama and the rest of Congress utilize it themselves? Wouldn’t a number of them already qualify for the End-of-Life planning?
While we’re at it can’t Congress’s use the same retirement plan (Social Securty) they want the rest of us to use?
JackLeg
August 11th, 2009
11:51 am
MAC,
The uneducated, undereducated and just-plain-Rushannityboortzwashed in North Georgia are already stating as fact that all senior citizens will be killed under the Obama plan … “just like they do overseas in them socialist European countries.”
Is this statement supposed to make you look smart? Better yet try this FACT Obozocare want to cut $500 Million from Medicaid, so in your ultimate wisdom, what does that mean? That means they will be cutting services to the old people, that is who relies on Medicaid. By the way go to page 873 and read about the “End of life counseling” then maybe you would get the correct information.
jimmy
August 11th, 2009
11:53 am
I can read – can you?
The House bill is available on the web – please see the following highlights:
page 30, line 23 – There is a government committee that decides the care you get.
page 50, Sec 152 – Health care will be provided to all NON-US citizens, illegal or otherwise.
page 59, lines 21-24 – Government will have direct access to bank accounts for electronic funds transfer.
Page 110, lines 13-18 – An excise tax will be levied on all goods from companies not offering government health care.
page 239, lines 14-24 – Government will redue physician services for Medicaid.
page 304, lines 17-19 – Government does not have to protect your private information.
page 427, lines 15-24 – Government mandates programs for orders for end of life.
page 429, lines 10-12 – “Advance care consultation” may include an order for end-of-life plans.
page 438, Sec 1236 – The government will develop a patient decision-making aid program that you and your doctor will use.
page 660-671 – “Doctors in Residency” – the government will tell doctors where their residency will be.
I know your blind faith and trust in the Federal Government is well warranted and these sweeping powers proposed in this bill should not cause you to pause and think.
By the way we haven’t even discussed the cost.
When Medicaid was passed it was projected to cost $12 billion in 1990. The actual cost for 1990 was $110 billion – only 10 times more. Medicare spending for the first nine months of this year was $314 billion and growing at 10% per year.
I really feel comfortable that this thing can be paid for and save money don’t you?
Mittra
August 11th, 2009
11:56 am
TnGelding
August 11th, 2009
10:55 am
“It shifts the burden to Social Security recipients.”
Not really sure what you mean by this. Could you elaborate?
The Social Security Administration (SSA) under FairTax would be responsible for distributing the rebate checks each month and Social Security would be paid as a portion of the FairTax instead of coming out of your paycheck. Also, Title III Sec. 303 deals with adjusting Social Security benefits to keep up with cost of living increases and “makes sure that the cost of living adjustment for Social Security benefits includes price increases, if any, caused by the FairTax.”
Kevin
August 11th, 2009
11:56 am
My mother (who just turned 50 this year) was recently released from the hospital after a four day stay. For the four days she was there, she managed to rack up a $10,000 dollar bill. For four days. People shouldn’t have to pay that kind of money for something as basic as healthcare. I cannot attest to whether or not the health care bill being pushed through congress is the right one, but I for one know that something needs to change.
Eric in Atlanta
August 11th, 2009
11:57 am
For those opposed to any health care changes by Obama, if he fails at reforming healthcare, the economist have stated America will become a third class country. This will include a much lower standard of living and a bleak future, where China is the Economic and Military Power of the world.
In Addition, the anger of Right Wing extremist is racially motivated, obviously a misdirected anger, over the last election, but should it undermine the entire Country.
Personally I believe the answer is no, but after seeing a town hall meeting and being embarrassed by the people at the meeting, we should consider extermination of town hall crazies; they are an example of Darwinism that we have prevented from natural extinction through entitlement programs that these people are very ungrateful the government provides.(Ex. Medicare)
itstrue
August 11th, 2009
12:12 pm
Jimmy–
You definitely can read the talking points send out in a viral email that offer an anti-reform interpretation of proposals in one (or more) of the six bills in committee.
But the devil’s in the details, not in the emails.
I don’t think there’s much I could say to change your mind. Any source that refutes these ‘truths’ that were forwarded to your inbox from one of dozens of anti-reform groups will almost certainly be seen as biased liberal tripe to you, like the Congressional Budget Office, the Kaiser Family Foundation, most of the trade associations involved in reform and anything generally not broadcast on AM.
“When Medicaid was passed it was projected to cost $12 billion in 1990. The actual cost for 1990 was $110 billion – only 10 times more. Medicare spending for the first nine months of this year was $314 billion and growing at 10% per year.”
…meanwhile private health care has grown at nearly *twice* that rate. Did the email mention that? That’s why it’s *all* got to get reformed.
On the topic of scare tactics, doing nothing isn’t an option, unless you’d be content to pay 30% of your income (plus big copays) for health insurance in 10 more years. Well, that’s one way to ration care anyway.
I hope you’ll either be rich or have Medicare by then.
Got better ideas? Bring ‘em.
Emma
August 11th, 2009
12:13 pm
Not just treatment for the disease, but treatment to help to deal with the awful symptoms that go with it.
Wyld(ly inaccurate) Byll Hyltnyr:
“But for his personal wealth, Hawking would have long ago been pushing up daisies. As would those similarly afflicted but without such resources in America were Obamacare to pass.”
You may think you’re making a cute point by throwing around the “NHS would leave Hawking to die” slur – but you’re either ill-informed, or you’re outright lying. It doesn’t take much to get the facts on this one.
Would you like to know wha we get on the NHS for MND/ALS?
http://www.nhs.uk/Conditions/Motor-neurone-disease/Pages/Treatment.aspx
It’s not hard to do a little research is it?
Emma
August 11th, 2009
12:14 pm
Wyld(ly inaccurate) Byll Hyltnyr:
“But for his personal wealth, Hawking would have long ago been pushing up daisies. As would those similarly afflicted but without such resources in America were Obamacare to pass.”
You may think you’re making a cute point by throwing around the “NHS would leave Hawking to die” slur – but you’re either ill-informed, or you’re outright lying. It doesn’t take much to get the facts on this one.
Would you like to know wha we get on the NHS for MND/ALS?
http://www.nhs.uk/Conditions/Motor-neurone-disease/Pages/Treatment.aspx
Pretty good treatment, no? Right down to the voice synthesizer. Sure your insurance would do as much after 40 years with the disease? It’s not hard to do a little research is it?
Lisa
August 11th, 2009
12:19 pm
Illegals are NOT covered by this bill.
This is blatantly false. This section prohibits insurance companies from discriminating against persons when issuing coverage, and has nothing to do with government subsidized coverage to illegal immigrants. The bill explicitly states that no Federal payments will be used for affordability credits for illegal immigrants. (P. 143, sec. 246).
Read the bill for yourself and don’t believe ever email forward you receive.
Quantcast Jay Bookman It doesn
August 11th, 2009
12:32 pm
[...] out This is the kind of direct miss information and out right lies being promoted by the right. It doesn’t take Stephen Hawking to figure this one out | Jay Bookman [...]
Ben
August 11th, 2009
12:45 pm
I AM IN NO WAY DEFENDING THE RIGHT WING COMMENTS BUT I THOUGHT I WOULD JUST CLEAR SOMETHING UP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
1. Stephen Hawking was born in the UK and has lived here all his life. That does not mean he uses the NHS (free state health care). People with money in the UK pay for private health care which is WAY better.
2. Elderly people in the UK are treated very badly by the NHS. Older life is seen as worth less than younger life, even tho elderly people have spent decades paying taxes funding the NHS.
3. Just about every family i know has a story of how an elderly relative or friend has been treated badly by the NHS and most of the time died earlier than they should have.
4. My own grandad was found to have cancer. He was in pain for months and months, before the doctors finally decided to test for cancer, by this stage it was almost too late, they could have started treatment right away but decided they would wait months and months and let him “build up strengh”. In the end they did not treat him and 18 months later he passed away.
5. If my grandad had private health care he would have got his treatment, the best treatment possible, almost straight away, in much cleaner operating rooms and better quality wards.
6. Free health care is all good, but anyone who can afford it here has private health care… that should tell you all you need to know about free health care.
Its bad for your country america, its gonna cost you trillions to get going and trillions to run. Be careful… it will back fire.
This is coming from a british liberal (what you call liberal in america… we call conservative in the UK).
They used to call Crazy Joe now they call me the batman!
August 11th, 2009
12:58 pm
I think Ben is a repuglatard plant!!! And not from the UK at all!!! What do ya’ll think? Hmm mmm, I thought so.
Ben
August 11th, 2009
1:09 pm
No i really am from the UK
That is just my experiences with national health care here. It has its good parts, but overall if i could afford it i would buy private health care.
All the politicians have private health care here, as do all the people in good jobs, they get it as part of their pay package.
Dan
August 11th, 2009
1:51 pm
As some one working in the Government owned government funded NHS in the UK the nosesne coming from your side of the pond is giving us a good laugh, Stephen is of course British and had full free NHS care before he became famous and relativly rich and still gets free care as he is older and richer. He pays Taxes and that pays for healthcare. We manage to pay less in Tax to fund free care for the entire population than you do to fund only the over 65’s and the Veterans Administration.
What Obama is proposing is not an NHS as he is not proposing a government takeover of hospitals but a government competition for insurance companies, in some way the proposal is closer to the French or German model.
Why anyone wants the choice to pay MORE for health insurance if you or your family have a pre-existing condition, I do not know. Every where else in the civilised world has basic health care as a right for all citizens and if you want to pay for seperate insurance to get access to specific care at a specific time you can. HMO’s and insurance companies in the US intervene in treatment decisions all the time.
Dan
August 11th, 2009
2:11 pm
Ben sorry about your Grandfather and I have lost both parents in the past decade both to cancer but I work in Oncology in a large teaching hospital in the UK and can assure you that for most things in Cancer treatment care is the same in the NHS ward and the Private ward, what is different is the enviroment with more private rooms and Wifi access to the web in the rooms and free TV as opposed to a charge per hour in the NHS ward. Where private insurance helps in Cancer is a very small group of patients who get access to very new drugs before they have been approved by the beurocracy of the NHS, once approved everyone gets them, while still being tested the patients at big teaching hospitals get them but at that point no one knows if they work, but there is a period of a year or so for each drug when you have some evidence they might work for somethings and some private insurance plans will pay for it and some will not but the NHS usually will not while they debate whether it works.
Stressed and angry patients get very upset when they are told they can not get something when they have read on the internet it is a meiracle cure, unfortunatly if they are really that good NHS approval is usually pretty good, the delays are on drugs that might work sometimes.
The real reason many people used to have private insurance in the UK was queue jumping, there is not much history of delays in Cancer but for for elective surgery like a Hip Replacement it used to be terrible, from initial complaint to Family Doctor to see a specialist to get an MRI to see a specialist again, to see a surgeon to get surgery could take 3-4 YEARS when Blair came to power, it is now a MAXIMUM of 18 weeks. We now have a reduction in people in the UK taking out private insurance each year for the last 3 years as the access to the NHS has got much better.
The other complaint about the NHS is high levels of Hospital aquired infection like MRSA, UK levels are not great but are going down and are comperable with most hospitals in the US though worse than many parts of Europe. It is better in small private hospitals which will carry out a restricted range of treatments but I would not want to be treated in most of them if I had anything seriously wrong with me.
Defiance
August 11th, 2009
3:06 pm
I can’t imagine why anyone would want the government to control one more thing in their life? In my opinion health insurance is not a right, but a product. The healthcare bill is a dangerous piece of legislation that must not pass. Do we really need 1018 pages of reform? Do we need mandatory healthcare and penalties? Do our elderly really need end of life counseling? Don’t you think they are already thinking about it and speaking to their doctors or their loved ones? Why would you want some federal or state airhead blah blah blahing you to death (no punn intended). Mandatory vaccincations (which contain live DNA from monkeys, birds and even aborted fetuses). Oh and no private health care options by the year 2018. And of course….it’s not free people! You still have copays, deductibles and premiums…except there will be no competition…….
Ecal
August 11th, 2009
3:16 pm
These comments are seriously vile. Where does all this hatred come from? Why can’t you discuss this like rational adults? Where is this venom coming from? Fox news much?
http://mediamatters.org/mmtv/200908100059
Stephen Hawking not killed by NHS (yet). « A blog from the back room.
August 11th, 2009
3:23 pm
[...] Jump to Comments Ah bless. The American health-care debate has descended into farce with the Investors Business Daily claiming that Professor Stephen Hawking would have suffered a grisly fate under a socialistic [...]
Defiance
August 11th, 2009
3:28 pm
Can’t speak for everyone, but I can read. I have taken the time to read parts of the bill and can’t find anything redeeming about it. I don’t even have Fox news…if I did, I would watch. I can’t put up youtubes of ditzy anchor women, but I can post pages from the bill.
I would like to know what everyone thinks is so great about the healthcare reform bill? Change my mind….please! How is it going to improve life in the US?
StareClips.com
August 11th, 2009
3:33 pm
To those comparing the number of uninsured by choice or ignorance versus the number who are uninsured with no chance to be, the fact of the matter is no matter the REASON a person is uninsured, it causes problems for EVERYONE. Imagine is owning car insurance was optional. A similar (albeit, different) situation exists for healthcare. For those who do not have insurance (whether by choice, ignorance, or circumstance)… they forgo regular checkups, doctor visits when sick, etc, etc… So, when sick they are sicker for longer. As a result, they might be out of work for longer, or might have a higher chance of infecting others if they are contagious. Or, something that could be easily treated early on… becomes something much more complex and expensive. Then, they end up being found dead (or near death) and are treated at a hospital. Of course, they will be unable to pay this bill, so now they become a financial drag on the system.
By making sure (and requiring) that everyone can have and does have insurance, preventative care will be more within reach. Sure, there will still be those who drag down the system by simply refusing to see a doctor, but the numbers of people dragging down the system in this way will be greatly reduced.
Ecal
August 11th, 2009
3:34 pm
@ Jimmy-what document are YOU reading? I followed your cites and they are either wrong or don’t correspond to the bill. Can you provide a link to the document you’re looking at?
A physicist
August 11th, 2009
3:40 pm
Some more irony lies in the fact that Hawking fell ill during April *while visiting the US* and decided to go back to the UK for treatment at Addenbrooke’s.
Defiance
August 11th, 2009
3:41 pm
auto insurance is optional…You can pay $500 to dmv to avoid a ticket and then absorb any costs associated with any accident….out of pocket.
So the uninsured are dragging down the system?
formerroadie
August 11th, 2009
4:00 pm
Hey Jay,
Did you know that the end of life clause is championed by a Republican Senator, not a Democrat? HAHA
http://voices.washingtonpost.com/ezra-klein/2009/08/is_the_government_going_to_eut.html
FR
Plato’s Beard » Blog Archive » The Hypotheticals of Right-Wing Reality
August 11th, 2009
4:01 pm
[...] Of course, that same Stephen Hawking who wouldn’t have a chance in the United Kingdom was in fact born in the United Kingdom, has lived his entire life in the United Kingdo via Daring Fireball and blogs.ajc.com [...]
Marlowe
August 11th, 2009
4:41 pm
Ensure health care for EVERYBODY by all means necessary!
Gene
August 11th, 2009
4:59 pm
What nationality is Hawking? Anyone? Bueller? Buuuuuuuueller?
I love that this article is becoming the internet poster child for ignorant conservative arguments. Bookman is now famous, along with all the idiots and their “commie health care” comments posted here.
Has anything gone right for Republicans since the 2004 elections? I can’t think of anything. It’s like some white-coated parallel-universe Karl Rove put in place a master plan to make conservative Republicans look like fools… Palin as VP, teabagging, birthers, Sanford, death panels, Palin on TV, angry old people railing against gov’t medicine with Medicare cards in their pockets… Palin resigning…
Welcome to the Democratic majority. Brought to you by the Republican party.
Stephen Hawking– Long Term Survivor of National Health « Kmareka.com
August 11th, 2009
5:56 pm
[...] Bookman of the Atlanta Journal Constitution catches ‘Investors Business Daily’ drafting Stephen Hawking into the teabaggers in an editorial where the facts are collateral damage i… Thanks to Americablog for the link… But my favorite part of the editorial deals with the [...]
More on idiotic NHS-bashing « Frank Owen’s Paintbrush
August 11th, 2009
6:14 pm
[...] recent editorial – soberly entitled ‘How House Bill Runs Over Grandma’ - claimed (now changed after the obvious errors were pointed out): “People such as scientist Stephen [...]
Billodot
August 11th, 2009
6:22 pm
Hey morons,
Hawking LIVES in the UK!!! He already enjoys nationalized medicine.
Eliot
August 11th, 2009
6:28 pm
Those who want to be placated by Democrat lies ought to read the bill yourselves:
http://energycommerce.house.gov/Press_111/20090714/aahca.pdf
If that doesn’t scare you, maybe this will–
One of Obama’s big health care advisors is Rahm Emmanuel’s brother, and he has stated in print that he’s for strict rationing of health care, and according to his own published work, if you’re in your fifties, forget it, you’re not worth the effort to keep you alive:
http://www.ncpa.org/pdfs/PIIS0140673609601379.pdf
The truth is there, just LOOK at it!
TGT
August 11th, 2009
7:02 pm
For NJ:
Is America a Christian nation?
In 1905, Supreme Court Justice David Brewer (1837-1910) wrote a book entitled The United States: A Christian Nation. In his book he wrote, “This republic is classified among the Christian nations of the world. It was so formally declared by the Supreme Court of the United States. But in what sense can it be called a Christian nation?”
Justice Brewer answers his own question, noting that America is “most justly called a Christian nation” because Christianity “has so largely shaped and molded it.” Noted historian David Barton adds that, “A Christian nation as demonstrated by the American experience is a nation founded upon Christian and Biblical principles, whose values, society, and institutions have largely been shaped by those principles…Christianity is the religion that shaped America and made her what she is today.”
Prominent politicians, statesmen, and historians alike throughout our storied history repudiate your assertion concerning our heritage. For example, John Jay, Founding Father, member of both Continental Congresses, one of the authors of the Federalist Papers, and first Chief Justice of the U.S. Supreme Court, stated that, “it is the duty as well as the privilege and interest of our Christian nation to select and prefer Christians as their rulers.”
John Adams, Founding Father, U.S Vice President and President noted that, “The general principles on which the fathers achieved independence were…the general principles of Christianity.”
Noted historian Benjamin Franklin Morris (1810-1867) wrote that, “These fundamental objects of the Constitution are in perfect harmony with the revealed objects of the Christian religion.” He added that, “This is a Christian nation, first in name, and secondly because of the many and mighty elements of a pure Christianity which have given it character and shaped its destiny from the beginning.”
President Woodrow Wilson stated that, “America was born a Christian nation.” In 1947, writing to the Pope, President Harry Truman said of America, “This is a Christian nation.”
Regarding the U.S. Constitution, authors David Marshall and Peter Manuel wrote that the Constitution works so well because, “Aside from the divine origin of its inspiration, the Constitution was the culmination of nearly two hundred years of Puritan political thought. The earliest church covenants started with the (same) basic, underlying assumption” upon which “the Constitution was conceived and framed.”
We don’t only have to rely on the words of others to see the true heritage of this nation. Christianity is woven into the very fabric of America. For example, preceding the Civil War, 92 percent of the 182 colleges and universities in the U.S. were established by some branch of the Christian church. Everything from our calendar to our currency reflects Christianity.
Also:
After the victory over Great Britain, John Adams and Thomas Jefferson both served the freshly birthed United States of America as ministers in Europe. Quoting from David McCullough’s Pulitzer Prize winning biography, John Adams:
“Of the multiple issues in contention between Britain and the new United States of America, and that John Adams had to address as minister, nearly all were holdovers from the Treaty of Paris, agreements made but not resolved, concerning debts, the treatment of Loyalists, compensation for slaves and property confiscated by the British, and the continued presence of British troops in America. All seemed insoluble. With its paper money nearly worthless, its economy in shambles, the United States was desperate for trade…To Adams the first priority must be to open British ports to American ships.”
During this time Adams and Jefferson corresponded regularly. According to McCullough:
“In eight months’ time, from late May 1785, when Adams first assumed his post in London, until February 1786, he wrote 28 letters to Jefferson, and Jefferson wrote a nearly equal number in return…Increasingly their time and correspondence was taken up by concerns over American shipping in the Mediterranean and demands for tribute made by the Barbary States of North Africa—Algiers, Tripoli, Tunis, and Morocco. To insure their Mediterranean trade against attacks by the ‘Barbary pirates,” the nations of Europe customarily made huge cash payments…On a chill evening in February came what Adams took to be an opening. At the end of a round of ambassadorial ‘visits,’ he stopped to pay his respects to a new member of the diplomatic corps in London, His Excellency Abdrahaman, envoy of the sultan of Tripoli…The conversation turned to business. America was a great nation, declared His Excellency, but unfortunately a state of war existed between America and Tripoli. Adams questioned how that could be…[Adams was told that], without a treaty of peace there could be no peace between Tripoli and America. His Excellency was prepared to arrange such a treaty…Were a treaty delayed, it would be more difficult to make. A war between Christian and Christian was mild, prisoners were treated with humanity; but, warned His Excellency, a war between Muslim and Christian could be horrible. [emphasis mine]”
Thus, here we have a foreign diplomat, during the infancy of the United States, recognizing that the U.S. was indeed a “Christian nation.” A diplomat of the Barbary States nonetheless, of which the Treaty of Tripoli was with, which contains the one sentence which those who wish to deny our Christian heritage love to refer.
Hudson
August 11th, 2009
7:09 pm
Just wanted to point out that Steven Hawkins’ local hospital (and the one he was recently treated in) is an NHS hospital. It had nothing to do with his money, he was brought in as an emergency as would anyone else.
To say that anyone with a serious illness or disabilities would not be treated is plainly ludicrous. That sentence would be LOL funny if it wasn’t for the fact people believe it.
The NHS has its problems but most of them are to do with the aging population, overpriced drugs and associated equipment and incredibly complicated and expensive modern procedures (feeding back into the aging population). It’s not the idea behind it that’s wrong and it’s certainly not 99% of the people working in it.
The US shouldn’t waste time picking holes in other countries’ heathcare, they should grasp the opportunity to discover what works and what doesn’t and implement it in the right way for them.
The hive-mind takes on Hannan « Grace Fletcher-Hackwood
August 11th, 2009
8:17 pm
[...] also has a good related post about the hilarious claim in Investors Business Daily that Stephen Hawking would be left to die under the NHS, whereas he…well…hasn’t. [...]
Skull / Bones » Blog Archive » Let us now draw Hitler mustaches on famous men
August 11th, 2009
9:18 pm
[...] The Euthanasia Card — the Death Panel that might have voted down Sarah Palin’s baby and perhaps Steven Hawking. It does feel like addressing that one is addressing a straw man — ’tis heavily [...]
TnGelding
August 11th, 2009
9:57 pm
Mittra
August 11th, 2009
11:56 am
Many of us aren’t paying any income tax now even tho we have over $40k in income. Under the Fair Tax we would be paying at least $4k in taxes on our purchases, and that doesn’t include major purchases that we make with our savings that has been taxed many times already.
This is making the rounds of several blogs « Scaypgrayce
August 11th, 2009
9:58 pm
[...] Calling Stephen Hawking . . . . [...]
Max Champion
August 11th, 2009
10:11 pm
Can’t people use their living will to add a DO RESUSCITATE clause? It’s just asking people to state their wishes, not telling them what their wishes are!
Richard Miller
August 11th, 2009
10:18 pm
Wow, great comments. Seems lots of misinformation on both sides of the healthcare debate. One thing that is clear is that those that “We the people” elected are seemingly proceeding down the road of Social Security. A two-tier system where Federal, State, and City (taxpayer paid) employees invest in excellent private retirement funds with excellent returns and we in the private sector contribute to a program called Social Security, a program of questionable cost versus benefit. This time around think that “We the people”, Democrats and Republicans should not allow a two-tier healthcare system, it should be all in USA: private sector, City, State, and Federal government for healthcare. Not saying it should be government controlled only saying whatever it looks like it in the end it should be all in USA..
Richard H. Davis
August 12th, 2009
1:14 am
Man, you have made the most public dumb mistake of anybody in months. You will never live this down.
The Icky Other « Just Above Sunset
August 12th, 2009
2:51 am
[...] Jay Bookman notes this: [...]
Paul
August 12th, 2009
3:57 am
Let’s look at the evidence:
The UK’s infant mortality rate is massively lower than that in the USA.
Life expectancy in the UK is significantly higher than in the US.
In 2008, when the US-based Commonwealth Institute ranked the healthcare provision in six leading developed nations (Australia, New Zealand, Germany, Canada, UK & USA) healthcare provision in the United States was ranked ……. sixth out of the six.
The UK outscored the US on all but one of the nine quality measures of healthcare, ranked in the top two in six of the nine measures, ranked bottom two in none, and was ranked top overall. The US ranked bottom two in all but one of the measures of quality of healthcare.
Go figure why Stephen Hawking is alive and well more than forty years after diagnosis … and why in the United States, where the prognosis for his condition is death within three to five years of diagnosis, he would have been dead and buried long before achieving the fame and fortune that the desperadoes now claim is the only reason he survived the NHS.
Paul
August 12th, 2009
4:26 am
And the British Medical Association’s comments: “Doctors and the public here are appalled that there are so many people on the US who don’t have proper access to healthcare. It’s something we would find very, very shocking.”
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/aug/11/nhs-united-states-republican-health
Even the UK’s desperately conservative, traditional values, pro-capitalism, pro-monarchy, anti-NHS, Daily Mail newspaper is keen to point out the World Health Organisation ranks Britain’s healthcare as 18th in the world, while the US is in 37th place.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1205953/NHS-branded-evil-Orwellian-high-level-US-politicians.html
But hey, when the Republican right have sunk so low that they have to troll the incoherent paranoid ramblings of a retired British prison psychiatrist – writing under an assumed name which he deliberately chose because it “sounded suitably dyspeptic, that of a gouty old man looking out of the window of his London club, port in hand, lamenting the degenerating state of the world” – who is widely regarded as a certifiable nutcase ultraconservatism, can anyone really expect reasoned debate?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anthony_Daniels_(psychiatrist)
Paul
August 12th, 2009
4:52 am
It is also interesting to note that although the Stephen Hawking reference has now been removed from the text version of the IBD article, it still contains two quite desperate lies:
Contrary to the claim that, in March 2009, NICE ruled against the use of Sutent; since February 2009, Sutent has actually been on NICE’s approved list of treatments – a direct result of British monopsony working to force Pfizer into lowering the price of the drug – whereas even most private medical insurers in the US continue to refuse to fund any sort treatment with Sutent, because they consider that Pfizer’s price renders the drug uneconomical.
http://www.nice.org.uk/guidance/index.jsp?action=download&o=43174
As for Lapatinib, no final decision has even been made. The closing date for submissions on the drug was only a little over one week ago; so the claim that NICE has ruled against it is a complete fabrication. Like with Sutent however, most private medical insurers in the US continue to refuse to fund any sort treatment with Lapatinib.
outerstyx
August 12th, 2009
5:03 am
Juts so that people are aware, the amount of disability living allowance that Mr Hawkins is entitled to by virtue of being British is enough to pay for private medical care on it’s own, and he would still get NHS treatment if he wanted. Furthermore, being severely disabled he would be entitled to a Care Plan, paid for by the Government. This is because of his disability and has nothing to do with his brilliance.
His career could then pay for further private medical care on top of all that, since none of that is means based.
It would be inprudent to suggest we know what he gets, and bluntly, it’s no one elses business. But this is what he, like hundreds of others, is entitled to.
Pink Bunny Ears»Blog Archive » Fab Five Freddie told me everybody’s high
August 12th, 2009
9:07 am
[...] words” or gotcha journalism. It just shows how ignorant the arguments are. Via Jay Bookman, via Paul Krugman, real journalist guys. “People such as scientist Stephen Hawking wouldn’t [...]
Mittra
August 12th, 2009
9:12 am
TnGelding, it’s my understanding that the SSA will adjust the SS benefits to accommodate any increase in prices caused by the FairTax. It’s possible, that government benefits recipients (like people receiving SS), would also be eligible for the monthly rebate to cover the cost of tax on necessities.
As for big purchases items made with savings that have already been taxed, well, that would be true of anyone making a big purchase with savings and not limited to SS recipients. Your savings are just one of many places that the IRS digs its dirty little paws into your pockets looking for loose change. The good news is that under FairTax, your savings, and the savings of every American would cease being taxed like it is now.
Adopting the FairTax over Income Tax is going to require a shift in the mindset of all Americans if it is to be successful.
Sherry Chandler » Blog Archive » An objective free press?
August 12th, 2009
9:53 am
[...] also here and [...]
Bryan
August 12th, 2009
9:59 am
hahahaa the last two paragraphs are great. damn teabaggers (all 5,000 of them) need to shut it or read up on the bill. not make outlandish comments and claim them as facts. then again, i think seeing the Republican party kill itself. that doesn’t mean they shouldn’t voice their concerns, but make sure what you are claiming is actually true!!!!
Quote of the Day • CrazyDrumGuy
August 12th, 2009
10:58 am
[...] a man with no discernable British accent suddenly claims that he is British just after it’s pointed out the the UK health system would have euthanized him as a child? Where is his birth certificate? And, [...]
Dan Ogden
August 12th, 2009
11:00 am
It isn’t Hawking that would be considered worthless — he is, in fact, English, and stated directly that he has received a “large amount of high quality care” from the NHS.
Read it yourself: http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2009/aug/12/birthers-stephen-hawking-paul-rowen
Which leads us to wonder how the NHS would view this “reporting”…
Not your momma
August 12th, 2009
1:28 pm
I love how the editorial note claims that the only thing they edited was an implication that Hawking wasn’t a UK citizen. Nothing like right wing honesty to make you feel all warm and fuzzy.
Adam
August 12th, 2009
5:14 pm
Wyld Byll Hyltnyr – I think you will find That Professor Stephen Hawking recieves NHS treatment unless you wish to call him a liar.
His quote is here http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2009/aug/12/birthers-stephen-hawking-paul-rowen
paul in the uk
August 12th, 2009
5:20 pm
We are looking on in some horror at the way in which some commentators in the US are attacking the health service system in the UK. My own personal story is that my mother, who is now 80 years old, has recently had a major artery stent operation in a modern London hospital by a renowned consultant (and no doubt he carries out private operations too). Her operation, the necessary tests and after-care are free at the point of service. I’m actually quite proud that we have such a service and glad that over the years I’ve also paid my fair share of taxes that contribute to this service, whether you are rich or poor. As I write this Im watching a TV clip of Americans queueing at a LA clinic all night to get treatment… certainly something that my own mother would never be put through.
Jonnie Boi
August 12th, 2009
5:25 pm
Prof Hawking himself has acknowledged the debt he owes the National Health Service. I’m surprised that he has been used as an example of how a national health service can fail, when he is quite the opposite.
I myself have spent over a year in hospital due to injuries received in a road traffic accident. The care was good, the medics are some of the best trained in the world. I was poor when that happened to me, had I been in the US no doubt I would have had my legs amputated and been thrown out on the streets unable to pay the bill.
I now run my own company and pay hundreds of thousands of pounds in Taxes every year. An opportunity lost to the economy had I not been picked up by the NHS.
I realise that many in the US think that this is socialism and should be fought by all means, but it is US citizens that are currently dying because they are poor. That has to be the real scandal in the richest country in the world.
Brit CB
August 12th, 2009
6:29 pm
An NHS in the USA? You guys should be so lucky. Yes, we have waiting lists – but I’d rather be on one of those than be unable to afford to join one. If we’re sufficiently wealthy we, too, can choose to be treated privately – but why would I opt for profit-motivated treatment instead of evidence-based, ethically-motivated care?
The Stephen Hawking error only emphasises the ignorance of America’s anti-reform stance. It would be laughable were it not for the fact that someone has come up with the frightening notion that Hawking’s life is “essentially worthless”. Who thinks this? Certainly not the NHS, as Hawking himself has pointed out.
No, it isn’t perfect (show me something that is) and, yes, we complain about it (we love doing that) but I’ve always been proud of the NHS. And now I am proud to work for it – and with that “insider” knowledge, I wouldn’t dream of going private, either as clinician or patient.
Hawking Is Alive And Other British Stories « Around The Sphere
August 12th, 2009
7:20 pm
[...] Horn in The Atlantic has a round-up. Josh Marshall at TPM: AJC columnist Jay Bookman noticed that in the latest Investors Business Daily editorial about how the ‘death panel’ will [...]
US blogs on NHS | News Hours BD
August 12th, 2009
7:43 pm
[...] Asthe Atlanta Journal-Constitution’s Jay Bookman quickly pointed out,Prof Hawking was born in the UK, and has lived and worked there for his entire life. [...]
Torvald
August 12th, 2009
7:54 pm
Wyld Byll: I hope you realise by now you’re a bigger fool than the first litter of fools ever were. Hawking doesn’t pay for anything, you turnip. He goes to the same hospital as all the rest of us in Cambridge. You. Abysmal. Fool.
Class of ‘98, OctoMom: you need counseling. Fortunately for you Obamacare will pay for it. Despite us all thinking you’re disgusting.
Mikey, London
August 12th, 2009
8:01 pm
I feel it is an absolute disgrace that Americans can even dare to attack our healthcare system! To look across the Atlantic with anything other than jealousy is a nonsense.
Firstly to anyone who feels that the NHS is evil as yourself this how can providing free, universal medical care be “evil” to any stretch of the imagination? Right wingers in the US often claim to be Christians, do you really think that Jesus would be arguing AGAINST providing care for all?!?!
Secondly, do you not feel ashamed, that as the world’s most wealthy and powerful nation, there are people dying from preventable disease on your very doorstep? Such plight is unheard of in the UK thanks entirely the the NHS. Whilst serious illness remains a concern of many, the fear of how to pay for treatment concerns almost nobody.
Thirdly, and finally, Americans fail to understand that British people hold the NHS is almost universal esteem. Even Margaret Thatcher, who was opposed to all sorts of Government intervention, claimed the NHS was safe in her hands. Daniel Hannan the British MEP who has been doing the rounds on right wing news stations is a source of deep embarrassment to his party here in the UK, partly as his views are out of step with what most British people think, and partly because his own Conservative party know that it will lose them votes come election time next May.
I think we in Britain, and our proud healthcare system are owed a big apology from Americans who spout such hurtful lies.
James
August 12th, 2009
8:04 pm
Hate to shatter any rumours here but I live in the UK and I say thank goodness for the NHS. In other EU countries such as France the helathcare may be to a better standard but at least, like in France, we in the UK do not have to pay 20% of hospital fees. The main problem in the NHS is aftercare, operations (whilst they may have long waiting lists) are absolutely fantastic. Of course it is not a perfect system and some do not benefit as much as others but the same can be said of anything in the world. Nothing is perfect. Oh and by the way I would say that old people (i.e. those over 65) have the highest proportion of heart operations dispelling the myth that the old are not looked after. And whilst on the heart surgery line of argument the life of my cousin was saved by the NHS as she was born with a hole in her heart. Despite this I doubt an NHS would work in the States due to a population not comfortable with high taxation and doing anything for eachother and the vast size of the country and the fact that there is a massive underclass.
Chris
August 12th, 2009
8:20 pm
A cautionary tale of the UK’s NHS:
My Auntie was born with Down’s Syndrome in 1933. She suffered through her childhood years but received the support of Christian charities which made life bearable. The NHS was formed in 1948 and this support disappeared as people believed charity was no longer needed. She suffered at the hands of the new socialist system. As her condition got worst her treatment dropped off. Eventually a Death Panel decided there should be no more treatment and she died in 1975. Conditions haven’t improved since.
IN THE REAL WORLD
My Auntie is now 76. She and our family haven’t had to pay a single penny towards social or medical care since the NHS was formed in 1948. She is believed to be one of the longest lived sufferers of the disease in the entire world. She lives a very comfortable life cared for by amazing health professionals, all provided for free by the NHS system.
Whether you’re Stephen Hawking or an “anonymous” women with no means of support you receive the same treatment on the NHS. The best they can possibly provide.
RuariJM
August 12th, 2009
8:33 pm
Wyld Byl – “Hawking, by virtue of his extreme personal wealth, has access to healthcare far beyond that of most with the same physical infirmities.”
When Hawking first contracted Motor Neurone Disease, in the 1960s, he was a graduate research student at Cambridge University. His care and treatment was all from teh NHS. He did, finally, gain wealth with the publication of ‘A Short History of Time’ – by which time he had been receiving NHS care for over 30 years.
Your tortured logic simply does not wash.
FYI – here is what I have received from teh NHS
my birth – no charge
treatment for whooping cough, aged 3 months – no charge (it was the whisky in my bottle that sorted it out, apparently)
diagnosis of paediatric allergic asthma – no charge
treatement of broken thumb at age 4 – no charge
treatment of split lip, age 5 – no charge
toncillectomy – well, must be honest, parents paid for that. But I could have had it at an NHS hospital for no charge.
treatment for blood infection after getting an infected cut on my knee – no charge
othodontics, ages 10-13 – no charge
broken nose repair – no charge
fractured skull (accident while riding my bike) – no charge
broken hand (playing football – soccer to you guys) – no charge
broken foot (playing basketball – yes, I can see the irony!) – no charge
treatment for recurring chest infection in early 20s – no charge but recommended to move out of damp apartments on a permanent basis
birth of children 1-4 – no charge, even though child 3 was an emergency C-section and child 4 was an elective C-section
hernia repair in my 30s – no charge
gall bladder removal – no charge
oh, and prescriptions for Thyroxine (I was diagnosed hypothyroidic in my late 30s) – no charge.
no charge for the examination, diagnosis and blood tests, either. Nor for regular re-examinations
How much would that lot have cost in the USA?
The NHS is not perfect, as the UK citizens will admit – but it’s a whole lot better than a fully-private system. At least people over here do not die of poverty, nor are they significantly incapacitated by something as simple to treat as hypothyroidism. Or asthma.
And those who argue for ongoing pay-for-it at the time healthcare should remember something: disease is no respector of social class, wealth, gender or anything. We will treat people with TB, swine flu or whatever, without making them pay for the privilege, whether they can afford it or not, whether they squander what little they have on drink, drugs, mobile phones, etc or not. Because disease spreads, regardless of who you are.
Of course, we do pay for it, through our taxes and National Insurance contributions. Our taxes may be a little higher than those in the US – although that point is moot – but add in teh cost of healthcare and they are way, way less.
On balance, I’d rather be an average earner in this country than in the US – and I certainly would not want to be poor.
Nong of the day: “socialised medicine” division « My Hot Topics
August 12th, 2009
8:45 pm
[...] Jay Bookman – It doesn’t take Stephen Hawking to figure this one out via TPM via @amandamarcotteSimilar [...]
US blogs on NHS | Breaking News Live : World News, Celebrity Gossip, Movie Reviews, Sports News, Hot Politics
August 12th, 2009
8:55 pm
[...] Asthe Atlanta Journal-Constitution’s Jay Bookman quickly pointed out,Prof Hawking was born in the UK, and has lived and worked there for his entire life. [...]
IBD Editorials
August 12th, 2009
9:02 pm
IBD’s response: http://www.investors.com/NewsAndAnalysis/Article.aspx?id=503233
Ann Jones
August 12th, 2009
9:20 pm
As a UK citizen, I feel proud of our NHS, I was born around the time of it’s inception, nearly 60 years ago, and although I have rarely had a days sickness in my life, it is very comforting, in the knowledge that if ever I become ill or involved in an accident, I need never worry about health care costs! The US could do a lot worse than follow our system. Although Stephen Hawking is wealthy, he has made a statement thanking the NHS for all his treatment, that has kept him alive for far longer than was originally forecast for him & his condition. People live far longer in the UK than in many other countries that have either no, or inferior health care systems.
US blogs on NHS | test title
August 12th, 2009
9:22 pm
[...] Asthe Atlanta Journal-Constitution’s Jay Bookman quickly pointed out,Prof Hawking was born in the UK, and has lived and worked there for his entire life. [...]
Davie Turner
August 12th, 2009
9:27 pm
The NHS is the heart of Britain, it isn’t perfect, but it probably is the thing most brits are proud of and we relate it to our country.
I have worked within it, it covers not only social care, but provides health education, 24hour phone lines for concerns, provides GP’s for all and will provide care for everyone. From family experience I have seen sometimes the fustrations of the NICE scheme, my sister was seriously ill but the NHS was there for her throughout her life. Her illness has no cure and the NHS turned down a request for a newer experimental drug. A private patient she knew got that drug. My sister died aged 33, the other girl died in her late 20’s. I think this highlights the difficulty when pescribing treatment for rare conditions that often have no cure. The newer experiemental and often expensive techniques aren’t always the ‘best’ options. Instead my sister was given the best to give her quality of life, she was taken on an new drug they had introduced which may well have given her a few more years. As a family member though I remember the discussions about being turned down a certain treatment due to cost, in ways it seemed outrageous, but I believe in the end, the hospital care she recieved, home help etc. was outstanding. She got to see doctors top in the field and well, I hold the NHS in high regard.
It isn’t a perfect system, but it a system I and many millions of brits are proud of. Is it really socialist to believe that the state has a duty to the people who live and work within it? Who fought and died for it? The NHS was born out of two world wars when Britain was a declining super power, it was a sign that we had moved to a newer age and a sign of gratitude to the people who still make this a great wee island. A state is there for its people to live in, it gives us freedom to live our lives positively and to push ourselves, and it is there when we need it to help. Our freedom comes from the NHS, it will be there and always I hope will be. And you know what, I wouldn’t swap it for the world.
US blogs on NHS - Kikil News
August 12th, 2009
10:09 pm
[...] Asthe Atlanta Journal-Constitution’s Jay Bookman quickly …Prof Hawking was born in the UK, and has lived and worked there for his entire life. [...]
Mightygodking.com » Post Topic » Drool Britannia
August 13th, 2009
12:23 am
[...] UK” because apparently they’d have let him die in order to cut costs; multiple people point out that Hawking was in fact born in the UK and lives here; Hawking himself says the UK’s health [...]
Political Rants » Obama’s Death Panel
August 13th, 2009
1:16 am
[...] http://blogs.ajc.com/jay-bookman-blog/2009/08/10/it-doesnt-take-stephen-hawking-to-figure-this-one-o... [...]
Tax Slave
August 13th, 2009
1:54 am
This Jay Bookman fellow is sure going to feel stupid when he actually reads the bill…
Paul
August 13th, 2009
2:54 am
IBD’s new response is positively rabid, totally deluded and has more holes in it than a Swiss cheese. The poor buggers are really on the ropes
Wease
August 13th, 2009
3:17 am
hey. Its easy folks. If you want to say no to government health care, just refuse a single dime social security, medicare, medicaid and the VA. Socialist lackeys the bunch of them.
After all, you’re not going to rely on the government tit for things that you can work for, right?
When you get laid off, I expect you will also refuse any unemployment benefits. After all, you would have a job if God wanted you to.
Lets defeat socialism in this country. Dismantle the roads that YOUR money pays for. Get rid of the postal service. Disband the army. Stop taking YOUR money and spending it on things YOU wont benefit from.
Right?
BRIT
August 13th, 2009
4:10 am
You Americans make us over here in England laugh!!..I can imagine you all protesting..” What do we want??” “NO FREE HEALTHCARE”, “When do we want it?”–”NOW” . Suckers.
Paul
August 13th, 2009
4:28 am
Unpicking the calculated lies in the latest IBD response:
“We also say that not everyone suffering from a debilitating disease is Stephen Hawking, and we hope our critics would acknowledge that. Hawking is a renowned theoretical physicist, university professor and best-selling author. It is doubtful any National Health Service bureaucrat would cut him off.”
IBD overlook the fact that Hawking’s treatment is exactly the same as anyone else’s. This is borne out by the fact that he was diagnosed as a student more than forty years ago – long before he was a renowned theoretical physicist, university professor and best-selling author – and that on US survival rates for the same disease he would have been dead and buried within five years of diagnosis.
“For example, many British women — whose breast cancer mortality rate is nearly twice that of American women — have been denied care in relative obscurity.”
Really? Notice how IBD very carefully avoid citing any sources for this outrageous claim which they know to be a lie. The NHS Breast Screening Programme provides free breast screening every three years for every single woman aged 50 and over in the UK. Treatment is aggressive and gold-standard. Curative treatments are not denied. Treatments which enable women to live with their breast cancer are not denied. The only treatments which are occasionally denied are certain end of life treatments which are at best able to extend life by a further few months .. treatments which give a low quality of life and which most people in the United States – even those who are insured to the hilt – are also denied. The focus is on death with dignity and quality of life over live at any cost .. even if that cost is suffering.
Does the US provide free breast screening?
“It’s easy to ignore the fact that data from the Organization for Economic Cooperation & Development, hardly a right-wing organization, show that the U.K.’s heart-attack fatality rate is almost 20% higher than America’s, and that angioplasties in Britain are only 21.3% as common as they are here”
This is an interesting claim when you consider that, according to the very same OECD’s latest statistics, we see that:
1) the UK’s premature mortality rate is 3,548/100,000 against the US rate of 5,066/100,000 – so that is almost 43% higher in the US – and continues to fall at a higher rate in the UK than in the US.
2) the UK’s premature mortality rate due to ischemic heart disease is 153/100,000 as against the US rate of 170/100,000 – so that is almost 11% HIGHER in the US, not the almost 20% lower claimed by IBD.
The OECD doesn’t report on the rates of angioplasties; so, given that IBD have carefully chosen to avoid sourcing this particular claim, one can only assume that it is dubious at best … or if it is true and well-sourced, then given the higher mortality rates in the US, that it is simply a sign that it is a much overused procedure by those keen to bill for their services.
I can only assume that the one carefully cherry-picked and then grotesquely twisted “heart-attack” statistic provided by IBD relates to the mortality rate from strokes – which in the UK is 58/100,000, against the US rate of 41/100,000. Not only are strokes nothing even remotely related to “heart-attacks”, but even allowing one act of creativity on the part of IBD, the heart disease mortality rate in the UK is still close to 15% higher in the US.
Add to that the fact that life expectancy in the UK is 79 years and above the OECD average – whereas in the US it is 77.8 and below the OECD average.
Unlike IBD, I am happy to declare that all my figures come directly from the OECD ‘2007 Health at a glance’ report.
“Or it’s easy to forget that in March, the U.K.’s National Institute for Health and Clinical Excellence (NICE) ruled against the use of two drugs, Lapatinib and Sutent, that prolong the life of those with certain forms of breast and stomach cancer.”
I have already shown that IBD’s claims relating to both Sutent and Lapatinib are a complete fabrication.
“So it’s no surprise to discover that while breast cancer in America has a 25% mortality rate, in Britain it’s almost double at 46%. Prostate cancer is fatal to 19% of American men who get it; in Britain it kills 57% of those it strikes. We are not making this up.”
But unfortunately they are making it up. Every last scrap of it – as borne out by the real OECD statistics.
“Avastin, a drug for advanced colon cancer, is prescribed more often in the U.S. than in the U.K., by some estimates as much as 10 times more.”
Given that this drug was only approved by the FDA in 2008 – may I add an expedited approval against the advice of the FDA’s own panel of advisors who voted 5 to 4 against approval, because of their concern that data from the clinical trial did not show ANY increase in quality of life or prolonging of life for patients – it is easy to produce lies and tortured statistics which show that a drug is used more where it has had an accelerated approval process, against somewhere where the drug hasn’t.
We can go on and on and on and no doubt IBD will continue to quote out-of-context statistics to make a desperate non-existent point. Yes, we have fewer MRI machines in the UK, but we also have a much higher population density are therefore much more likely to have an MRI machine closer to where we need it, when we need it.
The simple truth is that no matter how you look at the bigger picture, they are healthier and live longer in the UK – and that is despite spending barely one third of the tax dollars per head of population that is already spent in the US. That is the wonder of coordinated and patient centred care. Perhaps that is why, according to the OECD, suicide rates in the US are almost 100% higher than they are in the UK.
It doesn’t take Stephen Hawking to figure this one out | Ethiopian News
August 13th, 2009
5:48 am
[...] ajc var infolink_pid = 14719; [...]
Dean Joens
August 13th, 2009
5:55 am
I’m sick and tired of hearing Americans and others claim the uk doesnt treat the disabled right. This morning i left my house in my cart (supplied for fee by the state, taxed AND insured by the state and yes i did havea WIDDE choice of cars and vans to choose from), drove to the town, parked in my free disabled spot, to see my option. Had my free eye test, picjked up my free glasses, went to see my dcotor (again free) for my meds (again free) before signing up for a night school course (not free but very much subsidised by a huge amount).
THe disabeld are treated VERY well here and given every opituinty to work. We are also given cheap or free training and education in the hope we can find work sutible to our needs. I had to leave uni but thanks to the system i had the time and resources to retrain as a tailor. The car etc is free to all disabled people of a certian level of problems, regardloess of income. And if you can’t work, you get an alowance of around 90 pounds a week ontop of your rent, healthcare, personal assitance, car etc. Being disabled does not make you a second class citizen, and we are given every help and encouragment to work if we can, but if the disabilities are too sevear then we at least have a comfrotable life and find other ways to be productive in soceity
Barry Pearson
August 13th, 2009
5:59 am
I’m bemused that some people think that the UK’s NHS routinely causes euthanasia when treatment is too expensive.
I live in the UK, and I am IN FAVOR of a change to the law to allow assisted suicide on request as an informed decision. Doctors are opposed to this, as is the government of the UK. We typically have to go elsewhere (such as Switzerland) if we want assistance to die.
Sometimes the NHS appears to be obsessive about keeping people alive when they don’t want to be, whatever the cost! The NHS has its faults, but not the ones feared most by many people posting here.
Oli
August 13th, 2009
6:03 am
Can just say what complete ignoramuses these so-called ‘pundits’ are. Have any of them been to an NHS hospital, have they read the numerous studies, reports and policy documents about the NHS? Hell, have they even been to the UK? I suspect the answer to all these is no, else they would be liars as well as idiots.
As somneone who lives in the UK and uses the NHS regularly (Even though my family also is fortunate enough to be able to afford private health cover) I can safely say that everything said by these pundits is an absolute falsehood. The NHS will not abandon you if you are seriously ill, indeed, it is when people have life-threatening conditions when the NHS comes into its own.
Unlike privcate insurers (Who no matter how much you pay, set a limit on the amount of healthcare costs they’ll pay for) the NHS does not and cannot refuse treatment to people based on cost. If they did there would be a national outcry, and no doubt whoever allowed it to happen would be immediately fired. British healthcare has been ranked amongst the top in industrialised nations, despite being achieved at a far, far lower cost than in the US.
What confuses these editorialists is NICE – the body that decides what drugs and treatments the NHS offers. People keep quoting the example of sutent, a drug for terminal kidney cancer patients – NICE refused to offer it because they thought $49,000 to extend someone’s life by a year was a rip-off on the part of Pfizer. You’d be hard pressed to find a private insurance company, British or American, who would bear that cost for someone who ain’t paying any more premiums.
In fact, an interesting end to the story was that because the NHS is such a bug drugs-buyer, Pfizer lowered the price and the NHS now offers the treatment. The same cannot be said for the big American healthcare companies.
Yes, anti-government rhetoric is very easy to spout all day long. probelm is sometimes you’re wrong. The NHS has its issues, like any system, however British taxpayers have been paying for it for 60 years, and even the British Conservative Party has pledged at the next election not to cut health spending despite the hard times we’re in (Polls consistently show levels of support for the NHS at over 80%). The budget for the Department of Health was almost £100 billion in 2007/8 – So either we must have something here or you think we’re all incredibly stupid.
Sep
August 13th, 2009
6:20 am
Wyld Byll Hyltnyr, Hawking was able bodied until he got to university, where he fell ill as an undergraduate- he was not wealthy. He would have died if it had not been for the care the NHS provided.
Paul
August 13th, 2009
6:31 am
And on the charge that the UK’s NHS is fat and bloated with administrators:
The entire NHS in England (doctors, nurses, drugs, hospitals, clinics, free patient transport etc) costs £93 billion / $153 billion for 51 million people (around £1,900 / $3,153 per head of population).
To just provide Medicare and Medicaid alone to a fraction of its population, the United States already spends in excess of $1 trillion to provide care for roughly the same number of people – that is almost $3,300 tax dollars for every man, woman and child in the United States.
Add to that the cost of the VHA and giving tax breaks to those with insurance and the true tax cost to every man woman and child in the US, most of who see no personal benefit, is in excess of $7,000 – and that is still before before you even factor in the co-pays and the actual cost to each individual of their insurance.
In fiscal efficiency and value gained for money spent, the Commonwealth Institute says that the UK’s NHS is second only to healthcare system provided in New Zealand.
irate briton
August 13th, 2009
6:48 am
Since so many Americans are taking the name of the NHS in vain, here’s my side of it.
My father died the day before his ninetieth birthday. He had bladder cancer for ten years during which time he had been operated on and had regular cystoscopies. Had the cancer not grown in an unusual way that hid it from the examinations he’d probably still be here.
Onve he reached the terminal stage he was able to die at home, as he wished, because of the superb support from the NHS and the local government social services. We had specialised equipment, several hospital treatments for the infections that inevitably follow catheterisation, home visits whenever we needed them from his G.P. (doctor) and the district nurses, help with washing and bathing him and a carer for two nights a week for nearly two years to give me some respite, countless medications and the ambulance service even came out to help me get him up when he fell. Apart from a minor financial contribution for the local government care (and even that stopped after a while) what did it cost us? NOTHING!
There is no reason why someone can’t take out private health isurance should they wish to do so, no-one is forced to use the NHS, but no-one who pays the National Insurance contributions or is a British national ever needs to do so unless they want to. I, for one, am immensely grateful to, and proud of, the NHS.
Impartial Observer
August 13th, 2009
6:54 am
One thing that should be clarified is Stephen Hawking’s status at the time of his diagnosis. He was diagnosed with his motor-neural disease in university, before his fame. He didn’t have wealth and name-value to fall back on then but did have, like everyone in the UK, access to the NHS.
Bob Schiff
August 13th, 2009
7:21 am
I was born in the US but have spent the last 30 years living England and have experienced health care in both countries. I have been under treatment for bowel cancer and secondaries for the last 18 months in the UK under the National Health system.
There is no way I would choose to be treated in US over the UK, based on my experiences of both health systems.
All health systems have limited funds to work with and some form of rationing takes place, whether it is by the insurance company or National Health system.
An example of US insurance company rationing is the 80%/20% payment system used by many insurance companies. If you are having treatment in excess of $100,000 this then exceeds $20,000 that the patient is left to pay. In the UK I haven’t had to pay a penny for any treatment nor for the 3 operations required..
Until 5 years after successful cancer treatment is finished, I will not be able to visit the US, because I will not be able to afford any treatment I might require if I became ill in the US.
Finally, Stephen Hawking has been receiving treatment in the UK under the same system I would make my first choice.
Hawking not only Brit rushing to defend ’socialised medicine’ | Jay Bookman
August 13th, 2009
7:54 am
[...] blog item that initially began this international contretemps — “It doesn’t take Stephen Hawking to figure this one out” — continues to draw impassioned defenses of the British system by British citizens who use [...]
Mark
August 13th, 2009
9:27 am
I Stephen Hawking were American we would know a lot less about black holes.
Tim
August 13th, 2009
9:32 am
OK, where did anybody get the idea that Stephen Hawking is fabulously wealthy and is paying for his own treatment? He’s a physics professor, for goodness’ sake! That means he earns higher-end professional money, and, OK, he’s written a well-known book. He’s well-off, and earns considerably more than average, but certainly not wealthy by usual standards.
His treatment is entirely funded by the NHS, and on the NHS, this famous professor gets the same EXCELLENT treatment as any obscure man with motor neurone disease. This man, “brilliant” in the words of the author of this rubbish (even fools are right sometimes), has stated that he is only alive today because of the NHS. The article expicitly states that the NHS’s clinical guidelines would prevent him from being treated and lead to his premature death. Not only did the NHS fail to condemn him to death, but in fact they are the sole means of his survival!
The accusation that he or anyone else would be left to die in the UK is not simply an outrageous lie that is the exact opposite of the truth. I take it as a false accusation of murder and barbarism. If you believe this tripe, I’d recommend steering clear of the uncivilised islands of the UK until this story dies down. If you do have to come here, perhaps through a military posting, just don’t speak. Otherwise, we may have to put you in a cauldron and dance around the pot with bones through our noses while you stew.
Kim, Nottingham
August 13th, 2009
9:34 am
Being from the United Kingdom, I find this whole debate amazing. We love a good moan about our National Health Service–some would say its our national religion–but ultimately I think that, despite not being perfect, it’s something that most of us Brits are extremely proud of.
I’m currently expecting mine and my husband’s third child. The support we have received from the NHS has been exemplary. Our second child was born 12 weeks early and, thanks in part to the excellent care he was given in the first few weeks of his life, is now a happy and healthy six year old. I cannot thank the National Health Service enough for the care they gave him.
I wouldn’t swap what we have the US system. There are areas where the NHS could do better, but I’m extremely happy with the thought that they’ll be there should anything ever happen to me or my family.