Democrats’ ‘tribal loyalty’ to be tested on health care

Truth

July 22nd, 2009
2:12 pm

The problem is that Americans dont know what is in the bill or how all of this will effect their lives and their healthcare. If it is as good as Obama says it is, then tell us exactly how this is going to be better for ME!

Hillbilly Deluxe

July 22nd, 2009
2:16 pm

Why doesn’t Congress just let us common folks be part of the health care plan they have for themselves?

Conservatism Leads to Paranoia

July 22nd, 2009
2:16 pm

Health care needs to be addressed but it needs to be done right even if it takes a year or longer.

Fortunately each year there are fewer Democrats and even fewer Republicans. Some where in between there are some thoughtful folks who want to see the country work and don’t want to see it go socialist or neo-con. Pray they succeed.

I Report :-) You Whine :-(

July 22nd, 2009
2:18 pm

The democrat party is hellbent on taking itself out of power; who’s to blame the Blue Dogs from looking out for Number One?

I Report :-) You Whine :-(

July 22nd, 2009
2:20 pm

That’s just the kind of talk that could rally Democrats to Obama’s side. Preserving Obama’s image of strength was clearly part of the party leadership’s calculation in drumming up votes in support of the his veto threat on the F-22

Yeah, don’t you wish-

Rather, it was a vote that reflected corporate contracts. The floor leaders of the faction in favor of more F-22s were Sens. Saxby Chambliss, a Republican from Georgia, where the F-22 is assembled, and Chris Dodd, a Democrat from Connecticut, where parts of the plane are built. Joining this strange couple were such erstwhile doves as Barbara Boxer and Dianne Feinstein of California, which also hosts several F-22 contractors.-Salon

It had nothing to do with Obozo, but if it makes you feel better, comrade, Seig Heil!

Yes we can!

Lord Help Us

July 22nd, 2009
2:23 pm

I am amazed at the irony that surrounds me…

Yesterday, I heard Orrin Hatch trot out the old, ‘ you can’t trust gov’t to manage healthcare…gov’t is the problem, not the solution,’ mantra.

THIS from a guy that IS the gov’t!!!! He’s been in Congress for what, about 100 years.

He is saying, in effect, I AM INCOMPETENT!!!! DON’t TRUST ME!!!

Don’t we elect people to run our gov’t? Orrin Hatch just gave us a good reason to fire his ugly butt…

Lord Help Us…

Shawny

July 22nd, 2009
2:24 pm

The 3 big lies of Obamacare:

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2009/07/21/perils_of_obamacare_the_three_big_lies_97550.html

Hillbilly Deluxe

July 22nd, 2009
2:25 pm

Preserving Obama’s image of strength was clearly part of the party leadership’s calculation in drumming up votes in support of the his veto threat on the F-22

That was a self preservation vote if there ever was one. Those whose districts benefit from F22 contracts voted to fund it and those who had no personal stake in it didn’t. Didn’t have much to do with party either way.

Trust me

July 22nd, 2009
2:25 pm

Republicans are in the minority now because they drove this country to the brink of destruction. Democrats now have to prove that they are worthy of the throne of majority party. We’ll see. One thing is certain, it won’t be with the help of many, if any, Republicans. That’s OK by me. They really don’t even deserve a voice any more.

Paul

July 22nd, 2009
2:26 pm

What’s that old saying about I can insult my sister, but if you try it, it’s war?

Reps should remember that. So far, the President, Spkr Pelosi and Sen Reid have been having lots of difficulty with Blue Dog Democrats. No Republican intervention necessary. But the likes of Steele and Gingrich just can’t resist when they see a microphone.

This shows something else. Just as the power brokers in the Republican Party shifted it waaay right, waaay past Pres Bush and moderate Republicans like Sen McCain… well, now the argument’s been made: the Power Brokers of the Democratic Party, the coastal Democrats and northeastern Democrats, are waaay in the opposite direction. Polls show increasing unease with the direction of the country (after a brief period of hope). The Congressional health care proposals illustrate this – the special interests, corporate interests and Democratic House leadership just couldn’t resist…. and, increasingly, the people are saying ‘wait a minute.’

One other thought: Pres Obama made a couple of “I’d like” statements and left the stim bill to Congress. One would have thought he would have learned. I think he had a good idea of what he wanted to do with reform of health care – but to simply make a few statements of desire and turn it over to the House leadership and the lobbyists was an abdication. Tonight, he’s playing catch-up.

And as Truth said in the first post, if he can’t explain, in less than 1,000 teleprompter pages, what this means for the average family, so they can say ‘this is what we’ll have and this is what we can do and this is what we’ll pay’… then another opportunity will have been squandered.

DebbieDoRight

July 22nd, 2009
2:27 pm

Democrats aren’t republicans, they think with their own minds.

Democrats are republicans, they want to get re-elected too.

Democrats aren’t republicans, they’ll stab you in the back for a buck.

Democrats ARe republicans, they eat their young.

Hey, politics ain’t for si$$ies!!!

Bosch

July 22nd, 2009
2:29 pm

Lord Help Us@ 2:23,

Okay, you’ve just won my post of the day award. One of the reasons I’ve never trusted the GOP much is their “smaller government” mantra, which, of course, they don’t mean. But they are a bunch of people who are basically saying, the government is incompetent, but we want to be a part of it!!!

So, what do they expect out of their job description? Sit around and do nothing in their attempts to be irrelevant? I just don’t get it.

Bosch

July 22nd, 2009
2:29 pm

Sorry Jay, but I’ve just gotta know.

So Debbie,

Vampire Eric?

Doggone/GA

July 22nd, 2009
2:30 pm

“But they are a bunch of people who are basically saying, the government is incompetent, but we want to be a part of it”

More like: “government is incompetent…elect us and we’ll prove it”

getalife

July 22nd, 2009
2:35 pm

The gop rubber stamp but dems stab their president in the back.

Yoo got punked:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/07/22/australian-comedy-team-pr_n_242854.html

He looks scared to death.

Kamchak

July 22nd, 2009
2:36 pm

“…if he can’t explain, in less than 1,000 teleprompter pages,…”

How many words are on a “teleprompter page”?

eagle scout

July 22nd, 2009
2:36 pm

Hillbilly Deluxe … Do you think that congress has some special health care benefit? One that is especially tailored to their needs. Actually they are covered just like any federal servant under the
Federal Employees Health Benefits Program…It is equivelant to any health benefit one would receive working for a major company.

Hillbilly Deluxe

July 22nd, 2009
2:37 pm

if he can’t explain, in less than 1,000 teleprompter pages, what this means for the average family, so they can say ‘this is what we’ll have and this is what we can do and this is what we’ll pay’…

Then it’d be buying a pig in a poke. (And I believe we need some form of health care reform as soon as possible).

Northern Songs, Ltd.

July 22nd, 2009
2:37 pm

apropo of absolutely nothing:

John: Now see what you’ve done with your filthy eastern ways?
Ahme: No, it is Clang, the high priest, who is filthy in his eastern ways.
John: How do we know you’re not just as filthy, and sent by him to nick the ring by being filthy, and you’ve lulled us with your filthy eastern ways?
Paul: What filthy ways are these?

Ah, good times.

Paul

July 22nd, 2009
2:37 pm

Lord Help Us – Bosch

Could you interpret what Sen Hatch said as “I’ve been around long enough to know what happens when committees and lobbyists and special interests get their hands on a good idea. Some of us see it, most go along, and there aren’t enough of us with the will to resist to prevail.”

Hillbilly Deluxe

July 22nd, 2009
2:39 pm

Eagle Scout

Millions of folks don’t work for major companies and receive coverage that isn’t as good, if they receive any.

Bosch

July 22nd, 2009
2:39 pm

Paul @ 2:37 –

Well, yeah, I guess so.

eagle scout

July 22nd, 2009
2:42 pm

I know that Hillbilly…

That’s why we as a country need major health care reform.

Paul

July 22nd, 2009
2:43 pm

Kamchak

Pres Obama averages, what, 13 questions and answers an hour? Only 13 in an hour? Lonnnnng answers. He likes to get philosophical. So did Pres Clinton – but he kept it confined to the West Wing bull sessions where he drove his staff nuts. When he got ready to face the public and make his case – he connected and he did it. (The 1,000 pages was reference to the length of the House proposal, the teleprompter was reference to the studied preparation).

Pres Obama has some fine oratorical skills. Seems to me, on this issue at this time, he needs to ratchet it down a few notches, get simple, and connect.

Bosch

July 22nd, 2009
2:43 pm

Eagle Scout,

And millions of folks DO work for major companies and DON’T receive coverage that isn’t as good, if they receive any.

(Sorry Hillbilly Deluxe, not pokin’ fun at ‘cha – just an observation).

Road Scholar

July 22nd, 2009
2:44 pm

TRUTH: You mean that Fox News doesn’t know what will be/ is in the Healthcare legislation ? HECK, they have been advertising death and destruction due to Socialism caused by this bill.

What is the best healthcare system presently in the US? Stumped? It’s the VA!!!!!! I guess they don’t like socialized medcine, even for our troops, esp if they are vets themselves? Do they not request or get VA healthcare? Do they not support our troops in the least due to their healthcare system?

I Report :-) You Whine :-(

July 22nd, 2009
2:45 pm

That was a self preservation vote if there ever was one. Those whose districts benefit from F22 contracts voted to fund it and those who had no personal stake in it didn’t. Didn’t have much to do with party either way.

HillBilly- bookman doesn’t have much hope nor change to sneer at us about so he twists up what little propaganda he can.

kinda sad, it is.

@@

July 22nd, 2009
2:45 pm

Gee, jay, you’re first and next to last paragraphs are contradictory.

Democrats as a rule aren’t very good at the political loyalty thing, certainly not as good as the Republicans are.

Even Democrats who have concerns about Obama’s approach — whether those concerns are heart-felt or more political in nature — have a lot invested in the president’s success.

How about standing on their oath to serve US as opposed to themselves or their party’s CHOSEN.

Kamchak

July 22nd, 2009
2:47 pm

Paul @2:37

I take it to mean committees, lobbyists and special interests convert a good idea to a bad idea, some see the change, most go along with the change, but there aren’t enough willing to resist a good idea gone bad.

Joey

July 22nd, 2009
2:47 pm

The foolish and totally dishonest statement is yours, Jay. There is no Republican wide “desire to halt healthcare in order to break the Obama Presidency”.

The desire to stop the Democrats from passing their healtcare bill(s), whichever one comes out, is about protecting the United States from a bad health care bill. A bill that probably not one person has read in its entirety. If that harms President Obama agenda so be it.

I do not doubt that there is a seperate to weaken, maybe break, the Obama Presidency, but so what. There was a desire by Democrats to break the Presidency of Bush II (Jay was very active is this one), Bush I, Reagan, etc. And a similar desire by Republicans to break Clinton and Carter. Big Deal.

Hillbilly Deluxe

July 22nd, 2009
2:48 pm

eaglescout & Bosch

Sounds like maybe we didn’t understand each other but we all agree we need to do something better than what we’re doing now. So it’s all good as the youngsters say.

I Report :-) You Whine :-(

July 22nd, 2009
2:49 pm

Let’s check and see how the democrats are coming along with their latest attempts to save America-

http://www.metacafe.com/watch/1505178/video_clips_of_early_flight_attempts/

Gosh, that’s too bad.

DB, Gwinnettian

July 22nd, 2009
2:49 pm

Republicans have been pretty foolish to talk openly of their desire to halt health-care reform as a way to “break” the Obama presidency and make it his Waterloo

I’ll take “Stuff GOPers Know, but Won’t Admit to in a Million Years” for $1000, Alex.

DebbieDoRight

July 22nd, 2009
2:51 pm

Bosch I don’t like their Eric either……I don’t know, he comes off sexier and more thrilling in the books. I guess it’s sort of like Christopher Reeve’s Superman. Sure, Reeves was cute, but could you really call him a “Super” MAN?! no way!!!

Goldie

July 22nd, 2009
2:51 pm

Who was it that said that getting the Dems to agree on any legislation “is like herding cats”? The Dems certainly don’t march in lock-step like that other party does.

TnGelding

July 22nd, 2009
2:51 pm

I don’t think so, Jay. They’ve got legitimate concerns and think it could be done a better, different way. They’re trying to fix a problem that isn’t the biggets one. The uninsured get health care. Many are uninsured by choice. The overuse of the system by a relatively few patients is the real problem. That plus testing people that have never been sick a day in their lives and won’t be. Throw in our reckless lifestyles that cause preventable illnesses and you’ve got a system out of control. We’ve created a society where being sick makes you feel special and gets you extra attention, and give you something to talk about. Too many of us have become fat and lazy, even too lazy to cook for ourselves.

The plans being put forth are simply too complicated. We have a single payer plan that works moderately well, Medicare. Why not make that available to everyone and let the insurance companies fight over the needed Medigap coverage?

Before we address health care reform we need to take a serious look at our end of life expectations.

DebbieDoRight

July 22nd, 2009
2:54 pm

Debbie Says: ALL politicians should have and pay for the EXACT SAME HEALTHCARE system that we privateers have!!!

So, the next time their ailing, sick, or dying family member is in the hospital and the HMO DENIES their coverage, they’ll see EXACTLY what everyone else in American goes through.

THAT’ll teach ‘em!

I Report :-) You Whine :-(

July 22nd, 2009
2:54 pm

GOP Leader Mocks White House Claim That They ‘Rescued the Economy’

“Not only has the stimulus not worked and the economy not been rescued, the President continues to promote policies that will create more unemployment in America. The national energy tax that went through this House last month will cause millions of Americans to lose their jobs over the next 10 years, at 2.5 million per year. And we’re debating the health care plan, the government takeover of health care, which according to the Presidents own council of economic advisers model will cost five million more Americans their jobs.”

bwa

Perhaps that is what Obozo wants, no?

Turd Ferguson

July 22nd, 2009
2:55 pm

If the dummys Dems/Reps havent read this 1000 page Obama Healthcare Bible then they should not vote on it Yea or Nea.

Read the bill…READ THE BILL!! Read the bill…READ THE BILL!!Read the bill…READ THE BILL!!Read the bill…READ THE BILL!!Read the bill…READ THE BILL!!Read the bill…READ THE BILL!!

Hillbilly Deluxe

July 22nd, 2009
2:56 pm

We’ve created a society where being sick makes you feel special and gets you extra attention, and give you something to talk about

I’ve had to deal with the healthcare system on an almost daily basis for months. I’d give anything to have not had to do that.

We have a single payer plan that works moderately well, Medicare. Why not make that available to everyone and let the insurance companies fight over the needed Medigap coverage?

Not a bad idea. At least it’s a reasonable point for discussion.

Kamchak

July 22nd, 2009
2:56 pm

Paul

Simple? On health care reform? This isn’t a bumper-sticker/twitter issue. I think it’s gonna take many speeches to address this. Studied preparation is a refreshing change from the condescension from someone many wanted to have a beer with.

Paul

July 22nd, 2009
2:57 pm

Kamchak 2:47

I’m not sure if it’s not being able to resist a good idea gone bad as it is “I got my part in, I won’t worry about the rest.”

Kinda reminds me of the mortgage and banking fiasco. All the people working in their cubbyholes, all focused on what they could see right in front of them, vaguely aware there were many, many others involved and with an inkling that something was off, yet telling themselves “I’m not doing anything illegal, I’m just a small part of this.”

TnGelding

July 22nd, 2009
2:57 pm

eagle scout

July 22nd, 2009
2:36 pm

Except that the tax payer is paying for it.

DB, Gwinnettian

July 22nd, 2009
2:57 pm

HD @ 2.16, I suspect you might be somewhat underinformed as to what health insurance plans the congressfolk have at their disposal. It’s not one plan (singular) but rather a choice, unless it’s changed a lot since 2007.

Members of the House and Senate may be seen by the office of the attending physician in the U.S. Capitol (Navy doctors on active duty) when they have a health problem while in Washington, D.C. They may be referred to Walter Reed Army Hospital or Bethesda Naval Hospital for further treatment if necessary. They are not required to use this service and may seek private medical care while in Washington if they so desire.

If House and Senate members choose to use the Capitol attending physician and the Army and Navy hospitals while in D.C., they pay an annual fee (equivalent to being part of an HMO). If they seek private medical care while in D.C. or back in their home states, they use their private health insurance. If they are over 65, they use Medicare and whatever private supplemental insurance they may carry.

…

Members of Congress are eligible — like all other federal employees — to sign up for one of the “cafeteria” health insurance plans offered all other federal employees. If they sign up for one of these policies, the federal government pays two-thirds of the premium and the Congressman pays the other one-third. This is comparable to insurance offered by many private employers.

During the 26 years I served in Congress, I always signed up for one of the Blue Cross plans that had both deductibles and co-pays.

The family (spouse and children) of House and Senate members are not entitled to be treated by the Capitol attending physician and thus must be covered by private insurance. I always included my wife and minor children under my Blue Cross plan and paid the higher family premium.

It is legitimate to suggest that uninsured workers have the right to buy into one of the plans covering federal employees as a viable option for obtaining affordable health insurance. Since the group (all federal employees) is so large, the premiums are somewhat lower than policies offered to self-employed individuals or to the employees of small companies. Just don’t attack members of Congress for getting “free” insurance for themselves and their families whenever the subject is raised.

I only mention this because I heard the issue raised during a WNYC interview with Charlie Rangel the other day, and he answered that it’s his objective, via his House Ways and Means committee plan, to offer similar choices to other Americans who don’t have them now. In other words, he’s trying to do more or less what you’re asking for.

(I know, good luck with that in the compromise commitee…)

Doggone/GA

July 22nd, 2009
2:57 pm

“Who was it that said that getting the Dems to agree on any legislation “is like herding cats”?”

I don’t know who said that, but Will Rogers said: “I belong to no organized party. I am a Democrat.”

Truth

July 22nd, 2009
2:57 pm

Road Scholar… Quit talking with your mouth full. All I said was that I want to know exactly how it will effect me. It is pathetic how the VA hospitols are run. Even worse, that is exactly what our healthcare will look like if Obama gets his way.

Turd Ferguson

July 22nd, 2009
2:58 pm

Dems fail to realize that while JJ sint increasing income taxes he is increasing taxes on everything else. After nothing else remains, boy and girls he then will come for your income.

Believe it.

Paul

July 22nd, 2009
3:00 pm

Kamchak 2:47

I was thinking more along the lines of Pres Clinton’s “I feel your pain” connection. The guy was a policy whiz – which is why I mentioned those West Wing collegiate-style gabfests. But he knew how to read the situation and adapt – he did not use the same style for all his encounters with different audiences. He was well prepared, had a great grasp of the issues

but came off not as condescending but as someone you could have a beer with and talk things over with.

md

July 22nd, 2009
3:02 pm

The dems don’t march in lockstep because of individual thought like folks here want to believe. Its because the Blue Dogs still represent what the democratic party used to be. The mainstream democrats are just as bad as the mainstream republicans, all lost in their dogma.

Hail to the Blue Dogs for having the sense to remain true to more folks than the far left and far right.

Gale

July 22nd, 2009
3:02 pm

TnGelding @251 Good post and I agree. I think the insurance companies are the biggest problems with health care. Why should we create a system where they still have pwoer?

Bosch

July 22nd, 2009
3:03 pm

Kamchak,

Chuckle, chuckle, chuckle, my dear sir:

“This isn’t a bumper-sticker/twitter issue”

Surely you jest old sport – this IS a blog ya’ know where EVERYTHING is a freaking bumper sticker issue!

JK

Debbie,

You should see my 13 year old daughter when she sees Vampire Eric. It’s almost embarrassing to watch. Is it bad of us to let our daughter watch that show? We make her turn her head during the sex parts.

Lord Help Us

July 22nd, 2009
3:04 pm

Paul,

I don’t blame the lobbyists and special interests for gov’t inefficency. I blame voters that swallow the crap that lobbyists and special interests cook up and politicians that take their donations and are too lazy or incompetent to tell them to ‘take a hike.’

NRA, Unions, Southern Baptists, pro-environmental groups, corporate groups, AIPAC…the list goes on, and on, and on…not all are bad, but they are ALL myopic.

Once our elected officials yield to these organizations and start doing their bidding at the expense of their constituents, voters should be smart enough to chuck them out regardless of their party affiliation.

When I’m President, I will fix this…

Bosch

July 22nd, 2009
3:05 pm

Paul,

“but came off not as condescending but as someone you could have a beer with and talk things over with.”

Why, oh why did you open that door?

TnGelding

July 22nd, 2009
3:06 pm

I Report You Whine

July 22nd, 2009
2:54 pm

The GOP was wrong in 1993 and its wrong now. It’s too early to say if the stimulus will work or not. It has had to help some up to this point. Things for millions of households would definitely be worse. Those of us that haven’t been affected by the recession need to step up to the plate and hit a home run.

Couldn’t you use another Escalade? But I guess you’d be more interested in something Lincoln has to offer now.

TnGelding

July 22nd, 2009
3:08 pm

Hillbilly Deluxe

July 22nd, 2009
2:56 pm

Thanks for not correcting my grammar and typos.

Bosch

July 22nd, 2009
3:08 pm

md,

“The mainstream democrats are just as bad as the mainstream republicans, all lost in their dogma.”

Remind me – what is that dogma again?

Bosch

July 22nd, 2009
3:11 pm

Lord Help Us,

“When I’m President, I will fix this…”

I hope so.

Kamchak

July 22nd, 2009
3:12 pm

“I got my part in, I won’t worry about the rest.” Yes, very well put. Congresspersons can however, object to a changed idea and appeal directly to the voters and say, “Sure this could mean $ for our district, but it’s bad in the long run because…”, but a office worker in his/her cubicle faces termination if they get in the way of the mortgage application fees revenue stream.

TnGelding

July 22nd, 2009
3:12 pm

Truth

July 22nd, 2009
2:57 pm

VA might be the “Cadillac” system then.

DebbieDoRight

July 22nd, 2009
3:13 pm

Bosch:

He’s too smug looking for me like he wears that T-shirt from Right Red Fred that says “I’m too sexy…..”

The only REAL hunks on TV anymore are those guys in those tight football uniforms!!! i LOVE watching the NFL network!!! Right now they’re playing re-runs of the last superbowl and they have a shot, (close up shot), or Larry Fitzgerald’s buns!! OMG!!! My eyes roll back in my head and I start slobbering and gasping for air!!! I hope the NFL network stays on FOREVER!!!…..yummmy!!!

Paul

July 22nd, 2009
3:14 pm

DB, Gwinnettian

Here’s a riddle.

How does Rep Charlie Rangel, chairman of the tax writing House Ways and Means Committee, do things on a much grander scale than Gov Sara Palin?

Well, poor Sara, with all those ethics complaints against her, has spent a half million in legal things since her ethics troubles started months and months and months ago.

Rep Rangel, however, has spent nearly three quarters of a million dollars in legal fees just since the start of the year for legal fees for his ethics troubles.

And Rangel has her beat, too, on the breadth of troubles. Palin’s fall into a relatively narrow list of complaints. Rangel’s, though, well, his are all over the map!!!

Who says Dems don’t do things with more style than Republicans?

TnGelding

July 22nd, 2009
3:14 pm

md

July 22nd, 2009
3:02 pm

I agree. Like I’ve said before, if the GOP had worked with them they’d still be in the majority.

DebbieDoRight

July 22nd, 2009
3:14 pm

that should be shot OF Larry Fitzgeralds……….just thinking about it made my heart flutter, my eyes glaze over and my typing REALLY bad!!!

Turd Ferguson

July 22nd, 2009
3:14 pm

Dogma = Doggie doody

Bosch

July 22nd, 2009
3:14 pm

Debbie,

Soccer players aren’t bad lookin’ either – ya’ know – from what I hear.

Paul

July 22nd, 2009
3:15 pm

Bosch 3:05

I believe Kamchak opened the door and I walked through it -

Kamchak

July 22nd, 2009
3:15 pm

Paul

I never heard anyone say that they wanted to have a beer with Clinton. A cigar maybe…..

Hillbilly Deluxe

July 22nd, 2009
3:15 pm

DB

I wasn’t completely up to speed on their plan I’ll admit but it is better than many people have. If Rangel could get that through it wouldn’t be so bad, but like you say it has to get through committee and get who knows how many unrelated amendments tacked to it that have nothing to do with it. I’d love to see both parties call a truce on this and agree to no non-health care related amendments. Fat chance of that though.

I’d really like to see health care cut loose from employers. It’s a burden on both employer and employee. It’s obviously a cost problem for employers who have to compete with say a Canadian compnay who has different issues to deal with. An employee may have to stay in a job making less money or whatever because of portability and pre-existing condition isses.

And for folks who have good insurance through their employers or through there own purchases, what happens when you have that illness or injury that pushes you to your lifetime coverage limit? Then what do you do? Not many think about that but it can happen no matter how well prepared you are.

@@

July 22nd, 2009
3:16 pm

Hillbilly:

I was thinking more along the lines of the government hook up with COBRA, bringing down the premiums of course.

Hillbilly Deluxe

July 22nd, 2009
3:17 pm

*their own

TnGelding

July 22nd, 2009
3:18 pm

Paul

July 22nd, 2009
3:14 pm

I like Charlie, but I’m not defending his ethics. But he has been around a while longer.

Bosch

July 22nd, 2009
3:19 pm

Kamchak @ 3:15 –

Snort.

eagle scout

July 22nd, 2009
3:19 pm

“We have a single payer plan that works moderately well, Medicare. Why not make that available to everyone and let the insurance companies fight over the needed Medigap coverage?”

I couldn’t agree more….This year I got sick for the very first time in my life. I caught pneumonia which put me in the hospital for 3 weeks…Then two weeks in a rehab clinic. After that due to being bed ridden for that amount of time I ended up with a blood clot in my leg which again landed me in the hospital for a couple of days. Total cost out of pocket 165.00. This amount also has included all my follow-up visits to my primary physician for blood tests, and a weekly visit to my home by a physical therapists.

Can one imagine what the cost of this would have been without medicare or major insurance coverage.

Bosch

July 22nd, 2009
3:19 pm

Paul,

And Charlie Rangel doesn’t whine like a little baby anytime he’s criticized and quit.

Matilda

July 22nd, 2009
3:19 pm

DebbieDoRight, how could it be possible for the book version to be hotter than THAT slice of undead tastiness? oh my my…

Re the topic: Face it, folks. Some Americans simply prefer a privately-employed, bottom-line, bonus-hungry EXECUTIVE to make their health care decisions FOR them, tell them which doctors to see, and deny their claims at every opportunity, than to allow the government to provide a public OPTION (fyi: option means choice) to compete with the aforementioned privately-employed, self-serving execs whose cares do not include the health of others. Free enterprise ain’t free unless millions of people can be excluded on principle, you know! As such, these folks shouldn’t bother listening to the President explain what he’s trying to do. They should remain ignorant and continue protesting bitterly about the injustice that would occur if a cancer patient could get well without having to lose every single asset he or she worked 30 – 40 years to accumulate. Death comes to everyone, after all, and if some people suffer needlessly, then that just helps them feel better about themselves.

TR

July 22nd, 2009
3:21 pm

The GOP has no power at all. If the left-wing Democrats are blaming Republicans for the Health Care disaster, they are in free-fall along with Obama’s approval ratings.

The Dems have absolute power. The Health Care bill has imploded because the Obama administration and the far left in congress insisted on slamming through this mammoth bill which will push through huge tax increases, massive increases in regulation and send spending through the roof.

The Dems have blown their victories in 2006 and 2008.

TnGelding

July 22nd, 2009
3:21 pm

Hillbilly Deluxe

July 22nd, 2009
3:15 pm

I agree about the burden. You’d think the Chamber of Commerce would be fighting for some kind of change. We simply must make it cheaper to do business in this country if we want to compete in the global marketplace.

Lord Help Us

July 22nd, 2009
3:21 pm

To rephrase a popular GOP mantra…

‘Government is not the problem, the people we elect to Goverment are the problem…’

The ability to govern should be a requirement for elected office. This requirement would have spared us the disaster of the Bush Presidency…

Class of '98

July 22nd, 2009
3:23 pm

Jay, you’re right. It could be the things that rallies Dems to Obama’s side.

But Dems also know that their seats are not lifetime appointments, and that if healthcare reform is rushed through and turns into a disaster, they will lose their jobs just like Obama will.

This isn’t about party loyalty for these guys. It’s about self-preservation. This healthcare bill stinks to high heaven and they sense it.

Rushing to push it through in August 2009 will only make them look worse in eyes of voters when they go to the ballot box in ‘10 and ‘12.

Brian

July 22nd, 2009
3:24 pm

53% now oppose as of today per Rasmussen

Shouldn’t it be about what’s right for Americans instead of party loyalty?

Does the government have the right to mandate or require every citizen to have health insurance?
Then penalize and tax employers and individuals for not providing or having coverage?

You can keep your current plan if you like it.
That is until you loose you job and or coverage. Then you will be forced to purchase the government specified plan, required to include all the benefits the government deems necessary and not be allowed to purchase private insurance.

Current plans do little or nothing to control or limit costs which is what most Americans want to be reformed, not universal coverage for all. In fact it may even drive up your premiums.

Then there all sorts of other points like rationing care, lower quality care, how to pay for it, deciding who gets treatments, etc.

But we’ve got to rush to get this passesd huh? This is the issue that our president and democratic congress feels most important now given the state of the economy and unemployment huh?

Got to keep reading up on this one!

TnGelding

July 22nd, 2009
3:25 pm

TR

July 22nd, 2009
3:21 pm

Not yet, but they’re trying to.

They killed Hillary’s plan, too. And from what little I know about it, it was much better thought out than the current proposals.

Hillbilly Deluxe

July 22nd, 2009
3:25 pm

TN Gelding

What typos and spelling errors? It’s a pretty small minded person who thinks a word can only be spelled one way, I think.

@@

Wouldn’t be totally opposed to the Cobra idea if I understand it correctly. As you say the two problems with the current Cobra is cost and the fact it lasts 18 months (unless that has changed). You can’t extend it even at a higher premium as far as I know.

I’ll admit to not totally understanding insurance but I think it’s designed for us not to understand.

DB, Gwinnettian

July 22nd, 2009
3:26 pm

Paul @ 3.14, no offense, but shiny-object distraction much?

Put another way, I kinda care about this whole 1/6-of-the-GDP management issue a tad more than how this or that politician is financing his or her ethics defense.

TnGelding

July 22nd, 2009
3:27 pm

Class of ‘98

July 22nd, 2009
3:23 pm

Can’t Democrats have principles? Granted few do, but there are exceptions.

md

July 22nd, 2009
3:27 pm

Are reforms needed for healthcare, public corporate compensation, tort system, etc?

You bet they are.

But not by one political party or another. If done by only one, it will always be flawed. No different than the good ole boy compensation system or the private insurerer health system they are trying to fix.

If there is no compromise for all involved, it will not work. The car needs to stay in the middle of the road and out of the left and right ditches.

Bosch

July 22nd, 2009
3:28 pm

Brian,

“Does the government have the right to mandate or require every citizen to have health insurance”

It does if you believe that whole “life, liberty, and pursuit of happiness” crap.

TGT

July 22nd, 2009
3:31 pm

To echo IR/YW and Hillbilly on the F-22 vote: By my count, joining Saxby and company, 15 of the 40 Nay votes recorded (see here for the tally) were by Democrats and Independents. This includes liberal icons such as Dodd, Feinstein, and Boxer.

DebbieDoRight

July 22nd, 2009
3:31 pm

Bosch: Some soccer players are cute, but for sheer sexiness you gotta LOVE a muscular guy in those tight football uniforms!!! And the best part is, they have these helmets on so you don’t have to look at their faces!!! Now if only they’d find gags for the mouths…………….

Matilda: DebbieDoRight, how could it be possible for the book version to be hotter than THAT slice of undead tastiness? oh my my…

Girl please!!! I think I enjoy the books more because it lets ME put a face and a body to those hunky “undead fantasies”!!!

DebbieDoRight

July 22nd, 2009
3:33 pm

TnGelding: Can’t Democrats have principles? Granted few do, but there are exceptions.

HA!!! Funny!! Well, that’s what you get when you enter politics………you get to become a politician and become hated by all!!!

Mrs. Godzilla

July 22nd, 2009
3:35 pm

Chill, dudes.

Obama’s got this.

We will get a heathcare reform bill this year.

It will be only the first step.

Kamchak

July 22nd, 2009
3:37 pm

“Soccer players aren’t bad lookin’ either – ya’ know – from what I hear.”

Yeah, Heather Mitts immediately leaps to mind.

Turd Ferguson

July 22nd, 2009
3:37 pm

If its anything like Cobra then look forward to high premiums and few benefits.

Its a lose/lose situation.

Obama has got it alright. Not sure what it is but he’s got it.

@@

July 22nd, 2009
3:37 pm

There’s been way too much fraud under Medicare. Looking at the government’s lack of oversight, I’d be afraid it would only escalate under the tremendous burden.

The government can subsidize COBRA and extend coverage — make it a joint venture. The government already recommends it on their Dept. of Labor site.

I don’t know that much about it either, Hillbilly. We carry catastrophic keeping enough in reserve for the high deductible. After that’s spent, we’re good to go. Low monthly premiums.

Paul

July 22nd, 2009
3:39 pm

Kamchak 3:15

Booooooooooooooo

funny –

Bosch 3:19

[[And Charlie Rangel doesn’t whine like a little baby anytime he’s criticized and quit.]]

Look at those charges – maybe he should quit – his chairmanship, at least

“You can have my gavel when you pry it from my cold, dead fingers”

DB, Gwinnettian 3:26

[[Paul @ 3.14, no offense, but shiny-object distraction much?]]

Naw. No offense. I was just looking for an opening to lampoon the head taxwriting guy in Congress. Your post was it.

Bosch – tells you how low the standards have fallen and what we’re willing to tolerate, eh? Remember what I said about I’d rather have a guy in Congress who’s an alleycat than a guy, particularly the chief tax writer, who gets me in my wallet?

Shawny

July 22nd, 2009
3:39 pm

“The refusal of George Bush to rein in the excesses of the Republican-controlled Congress, and the refusal of the Republican Congress to do the same with Bush, in the end did long-term damage to both the country and the party.”

I can’t disagree with this opinion. Interestingly enough, you NEED the blue dog dems to reign in the Pelosi/Obama spending spree or the dems will do the EXACT same thing and lose their positional advantage.

Brian

July 22nd, 2009
3:41 pm

Bosch – so it’s ok even though the majority of Americans now oppose it and growing daily? That’s true representation of the will of the people?

Hillbilly Deluxe

July 22nd, 2009
3:42 pm

Well I guess I’m all out of ideas. I do hope they come up with something that works and I don’t really care who gets the credit if it’s good for the everyday people.

Bosch

July 22nd, 2009
3:42 pm

Paul,

Alleycats are kick ass!

Gale

July 22nd, 2009
3:43 pm

I want to know how they intend to require health insurance for someone who cannot even afford his next meal? Well, of course I know, everyone else will pay for it. So, if that guy gets his health insuance paid for, why should I pay for my own and his. I’ll just drop mine and let the government pay for my insurance too. This is all too silly for me. Just run it like medicare. You are an American – you have coverage; whether you have a job or not.

It looks to me like the big hassles are trying to keep insurance companies in business. They do not have a lot of fans outside of the politicians who get campaign dollars from them.

Bosch

July 22nd, 2009
3:44 pm

Brian,

How do you know what every one who “disagrees” with it opinion is – maybe they want it done sooner. A vote in the “disagree” column doesn’t equate to not wanting healthcare reform.

DB, Gwinnettian

July 22nd, 2009
3:45 pm

Not sure what it is but he’s got it.

Likely he does indeed, but time will tell.

.

(sorry, gratuitous and so-last-year… but I figured some weren’t getting Mrs. G’s ref @ 3.35.)

@@

July 22nd, 2009
3:45 pm

NEW YORK (Reuters) – A U.S. man has been charged with giving al Qaeda details about the New York City transit system and the Long Island Railroad, as well as firing rockets on U.S. troops in Afghanistan, according to court papers unsealed on Wednesday.

Bryant Neal Vinas, 26, is also accused of receiving military-type training between March and August last year from the Islamist extremist group headed by Osama bin Laden.

Vinas provided al Qaeda with “expert advice and assistance, including assistance derived from specialized knowledge of the New York transit system and Long Island Railroad, communications equipment and personnel, including himself,” said the court papers, unsealed in New York federal court.

DB, Gwinnettian

July 22nd, 2009
3:46 pm

oh, & my pic @ 3.45 probably is not safe for (some) work. I guess.

Finn McCool

July 22nd, 2009
3:48 pm

Count health care reform as being in trouble if you must but I’ll bet my bottom dollar that this will pass this year – in the form that he wants it in.

About the deadline: of course he set a deadline for August. When you want your employees to deliver 5% net growth you tell them 10% and you hook their bonus to that 10%. It’s called carrot and stick or stretch targets or whatever.

You guys are discounting who we are dealing with: The guy whose team beat the Clinton campaign machine hands down. The guy who swept through to the brass ring after only being on the national stage for 4 years.

Take notes. This guy knows how to get it done.

DebbieDoRight

July 22nd, 2009
3:50 pm

DB at 3:45 too funny!!! I could just see him saying that too!!!

Turd Ferguson

July 22nd, 2009
3:51 pm

I will agree that he is an excellent con-man.

Bosch

July 22nd, 2009
3:51 pm

The Taco Bell dog died!!! How sad. No joke. My mother-in-law really thought that dog could talk. How the other Bosch turned out so incredible is beyond me.

@@

July 22nd, 2009
3:52 pm

I also remember Obama saying “I get it!”

“I know how unpopular it is to be seen as helping banks right now, especially when everyone is suffering in part from their bad decisions. I promise you – I get it,” he said.

“But I also know that in a time of crisis, we cannot afford to govern out of anger, or yield to the politics of the moment.

“My job – our job – is to solve the problem. Our job is to govern with a sense of responsibility. I will not spend a single penny for the purpose of rewarding a single Wall Street executive, but I will do whatever it takes to help the small business that can’t pay its workers or the family that has saved and still can’t get a mortgage.”

He will not spend a single penny for the purpose of rewarding a single Wall Street executive?

Phoday Topkah

July 22nd, 2009
3:53 pm

I am just moven from Liberia. I be the docter there and here I ambeing some thing else to make muny. Amerika is great country that gived me and my kidz the opperterniti. I read the newzpaper ever day so that my reedink get good and I be the doctor agen. But why does Jay say bad thinks about Bush. Bush is great man and big hero in Liberia. We luv Precident Bushes.

Mrs. Godzilla

July 22nd, 2009
3:53 pm

DB

One of my favorite photos……thanks.

Curious Observer

July 22nd, 2009
3:55 pm

What happened to the initial premise–that citizens would have access to the same plans used by federal employees? There are some 24 of them. My impression was that the only issue was whether there was going to be a government-operated plan among them, a la Medicare.

Now we’re getting very little information about the healthcare bills being considered by Congress. Instead, they’re wrestling with issues such as whether to tax private plans, how to cut Medicare reimbursements to providers, etc.

I consider myself a fairly well informed person, but I’m encountering nothing to indicate what the coverage options are in the bills. We’re getting a lot of smoke, but for the life of me I can’t detect the fire. The only flames I’m seeing are streaming from the the shot-down chances for a reasonable bill. I’m growing increasingly suspicious that the Democrats are once again blowing the opportunity to provide all Americans with access to affordable and decent healthcare coverage. That opportunity won’t come again.

Bosch

July 22nd, 2009
3:55 pm

Gandalf,

Your Phoday Topkah character needs some work…..just sayin’

Mrs. Godzilla

July 22nd, 2009
3:56 pm

Talking tribal loyalty,,,,,

George Voinovich (R-OH) said on CNBC Wednesday that a desire to prevent the Democratic president from scoring a historical victory with a public health plan accounts for at least 50 percent of the GOP opposition to the plan.

Bosch

July 22nd, 2009
3:58 pm

Mrs. G.,

Wow. So screw the people, we just want Obama to look bad.

Gale

July 22nd, 2009
4:00 pm

I am with whoever said it above. Put the plan in simple terms so Americans can understand what the plan is. Then we can tell whether it is acceptable. Probably there is no plan that will satisfy everyone. But if they cannot even put the plan into plain talk, of course we are suspicious of the devil in the details.

Hillbilly Deluxe

July 22nd, 2009
4:01 pm

Curious Observer

If nothing gets done this time, I don’t believe it will happen for a long, long time.

md

July 22nd, 2009
4:08 pm

“So, if that guy gets his health insuance paid for, why should I pay for my own and his. I’ll just drop mine and let the government pay for my insurance too”

Since you and I are the gov’t, we still pay his.

Raider

July 22nd, 2009
4:08 pm

Here are 2 simple definitions – ready – here they are

Socialism = Government Ownership
Example = General Motors

Fascism = Government Control
Example = Our Health Care

If you liberals can not see that, then you are like Bobby Boucher in the movie “The Waterboy”
to Stu-stu-stu-stu-stu-stu-pid!
Hey, if you are going down the street and going the wrong way, what the heck do you do? Go back? Turn around and go back? EXACTLY! But Obama steps on the gas and keeps going faster! If he is not going to stop, then we Americans have to stop him ourselfs. Lets go everyboby! Say no to socialism! Say no to more bailouts! And make damn sure to say NO to Obamacare!

DB, Gwinnettian

July 22nd, 2009
4:09 pm

Paul, a little light-a-candle moment–I happened to hear that discussion with Charlie R. on the Brian Lehrer show. His is a very good news/interview thing out of NYC, figured you might be interested in downloading a podcast (or just listening by clicking a link) sometime.

Like for today, one of his segments covers questions the listeners would ask Obama at tonight’s healthcare presser. If such stuff interests you.

Stuff awaits; later, all.

Bosch

July 22nd, 2009
4:10 pm

Raider,

The socialism and fascism card is soooo yesterday. Keep up.

Mrs. Godzilla

July 22nd, 2009
4:12 pm

Raider = too funny

Eddy

July 22nd, 2009
4:14 pm

When O’s numbers begin to approach single digits, you can still come here for your daily sip of koolaid. Gimme a 0; gimme a 0; gimme a 0; what’ah you got, still a 0. Do they poll for less than 0?

DebbieDoRight

July 22nd, 2009
4:16 pm

So screw the people, we just want Obama to look bad.

That’s been their mantra since November 9, 2008!!! Repuglicans are all about win baby win; they could give a rat’s behind about the populace. They’re always talking about States’ rights and how the government is trampling over them; yet the totally forget the trampling they themselves did over Terri Schiavo’s rights or her husband’s right to make decisions for his wife’s care.

I mean, honestly, what has the repuglican party done for America lately?

md

July 22nd, 2009
4:16 pm

Bosch,

As for your “life, liberty, and pursuit of happiness crap”, remember it only takes one word to change a meaning, and in this instance its “pursuit”. Pursuit does mean guaranteed.

Lord Help Us

July 22nd, 2009
4:17 pm

Raider,

Incompetence = inablity to govern
example = Bush Administration

Tyranny = Warrantless Eavesdropping, torture
Example = Bush Administration

You’re not a ‘birther’ are you?

Mrs. Godzilla

July 22nd, 2009
4:18 pm

not birther….perhaps hatched

Bosch

July 22nd, 2009
4:18 pm

md,

But we can’t pursue happiness if we are sick and dying.

Debbie,

“I mean, honestly, what has the repuglican party done for America lately?”

Given us LOTS of fun hypocritical fodder to laugh at!

jacksmith

July 22nd, 2009
4:18 pm

LEAD, FOLLOW, OR GET OUT OF THE WAY. (Thomas Paine)

We have the 37th worst quality of healthcare in the developed world.

I know that many of you are angry and frustrated that REPUBLICANS! In congress are dragging their feet and trying to block TRUE healthcare reform. What republicans want is just a taxpayer bailout of the DISGRACEFUL GREED DRIVEN PRIVATE FOR PROFIT health insurance industry, and the DISGRACEFUL GREED DRIVEN PRIVATE FOR PROFIT healthcare industry. An insurance bailout is all you really get without a robust government-run public option available on day one.

These industries have been slaughtering you and your loved ones like cattle for decades for profit. Including members of congress and their families. These REPUBLICANS are FOOLS!

Republicans and their traitorous allies have been trying to make it look like it’s President Obama’s fault for the delays, and foot dragging. But I think you all know better than that. President Obama inherited one of the worst government catastrophes in American history from these REPUBLICANS! And President Obama has done a brilliant job of turning things around, and working his heart out for all of us.

But Republicans think you are just a bunch of stupid, idiot, cash cows with short memories. Just like they did under the Bush administration when they helped Bush and Cheney rape America and the rest of the World.

But you don’t have to put up with that. And this is what you can do. The Republicans below will be up for reelection on November 2, 2010. Just a little over 13 months from now. And many of you will be able to vote early. So pick some names and tell them that their representatives (by name) are obstructing TRUE healthcare reform. And are sellouts to the insurance and medical lobbyist.

Ask them to contact their representatives and tell them that they are going to work to throw them out of office on November 2, 2010, if not before by impeachment, or recall elections. Doing this will give you something more to do to make things better in America. And it will help you feel better too.

There are many resources on the internet that can help you find people to call and contact. For example, many social networking sites can be searched by state, city, or University. Be inventive and creative. I can think of many ways to do this. But be nice. These are your neighbors. And most will want to help.

I know there are a few democrats that have been trying to obstruct TRUE healthcare reform too. But the main problem is the Bush Republicans. Removing them is the best thing tactically to do. On the other hand. If you can easily replace a democrat obstructionist with a supportive democrat, DO IT!

You have been AMAZING!!! my people. Don’t loose heart. You knew it wasn’t going to be easy saving the World.

God Bless You

jacksmith — Working Class

Republican Senators up for re-election in 2010.

* Richard Shelby of Alabama
* Lisa Murkowski of Alaska
* John McCain of Arizona
* Mel Martinez of Florida
* Johnny Isakson of Georgia
* Mike Crapo of Idaho
* Chuck Grassley of Iowa
* Sam Brownback of Kansas
* Jim Bunning of Kentucky
* David Vitter of Louisiana
* Kit Bond of Missouri
* Judd Gregg of New Hampshire
* Richard Burr of North Carolina
* George Voinovich of Ohio
* Tom Coburn of Oklahoma
* Jim DeMint of South Carolina
* John Thune of South Dakota
* Kay Bailey Hutchison of Texas
* Bob Bennett of Utah

Mrs. Godzilla

July 22nd, 2009
4:19 pm

so…. recess or no?

md

July 22nd, 2009
4:19 pm

” yet the totally forget the trampling they themselves did over Terri Schiavo’s rights or her husband’s right to make decisions for his wife’s care.”

I’m a registered independant, but do you really want to talk about rights considering the rights (or lack of) for the unborn.

Bosch

July 22nd, 2009
4:19 pm

md,

And actually, I put healthcare in the “life” category. You know, if you believe that crap and all.

Mrs. Godzilla

July 22nd, 2009
4:23 pm

Lewis Black on healthcare……

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=385×340809

Bosch

July 22nd, 2009
4:23 pm

“Mike Crapo” WHAT?

Crapo? There’s a dude in the Senate whose last name is “Crapo?” Why in the hell would anybody in their right mind vote for a guy whose last name is “Crapo?”

Bud Wiser

July 22nd, 2009
4:25 pm

Bud Wiser

July 22nd, 2009
4:26 pm

uh oh, I just had an epiphany … I wrote something that went blank when posted.

N-GA

July 22nd, 2009
4:27 pm

Bosch,

Cuz it kinda rhymes with Idaho?

Maybe he rapped his way into office……

Bosch

July 22nd, 2009
4:27 pm

Bud Wiser,

Dude, that’s not an epiphany. An epiphany is a light bulb over the head moment.

AmVet

July 22nd, 2009
4:29 pm

Bud at 4:25, that is by far the smartest thing you have ever written…

jacksmith, thanks for the list. What a rogues gallery of has-beens and never was-es…

Trust me

July 22nd, 2009
4:29 pm

What makes anyone think that we have a health care industry in this country. We don’t. We have companies offering less and less coverage for higher and higher premiums and co-pays, etc., year after year and they desperately want a better approach. We have millions of unemployed with no coverage and nothing affordable so they wait in line at emergency rooms trying to get help. We have insurance companies insisting on increasing their profits by at least 20 percent per year so investors are happy enough to allow the executives to skim off millions per year for themselves. We have hospitals and doctors looking under every stone for sources of increased revenue… And, this is what the Republicans want us to keep because the tax payers are already providing them with very good coverage at no cost to them whatsoever.

N-GA

July 22nd, 2009
4:29 pm

Paul (your 3:14),

I think the Reps have it all over the Dems when it comes to style. However, when the Dems do something stupid, the do it with more joie de vivre.

Bosch

July 22nd, 2009
4:30 pm

N-GA,

Maybe so. That’s the funniest thing I’ve seen in a long time.

How can anybody in the Senate keep a straight face when they hear:

“Senator Crapo, you now have the floor!”

Number1Ninja

July 22nd, 2009
4:30 pm

Well, maybe in acandle in this case.

N-GA

July 22nd, 2009
4:33 pm

Bosch…the guy had to have been a Marine before he went into public service.

Kamchak

July 22nd, 2009
4:34 pm

Bosch

Why would anybody vote for a man named Swindall? Just askin’.

Mrs. Godzilla

July 22nd, 2009
4:34 pm

more on tribalism….

Randall Terry predicted the consequences of passing the bill, he seemed to exalt in warning of “random acts of violence” and violent “reprisals against those deemed guilty”

AmVet

July 22nd, 2009
4:43 pm

“Jack, this is the United States of Freaking America! We do not copy nobody, they copy us!”

Hombre, you were born a hundred years too late…

Kamchak

July 22nd, 2009
4:43 pm

“But you want us to copy France, Germany, Canada and Cuba. America does not COPY any country on anything.”

News flash genius—Canadians and Cubans ARE Americans. “America” is a continental distinction.

Eddy

July 22nd, 2009
4:49 pm

Let’s not ask a Canadian, Brit, Frog, etc. how they like their healthcare. Oh, they are over here seeking treatment. Go ask someone in the middle class how RomneyCare is working in Mass. Obama and his minions are a mile wide and an inch deep on most anything related to healthcare…..how much will it cost? We don’t know!!! Will there be rationing? We don’t know!!! What choices will the average American have in choosing a healthcare provider? We don’t know! Will the President and Congress and all federal employees have to participate in the “new” healthcare plan? Of course not, it is only for the little people. Are my premiums going up? We don’t know!!

I could go on….so again please tell me specifically the answers to these simple and obvious questions. We don’t know!!! Hey minions, the clift is within sight!!! Talk about tribal….But O said so and he managed the auto bailouts, banks, foreclosures, etc with such finesse and speed.

DoggoneGA

July 22nd, 2009
4:49 pm

“Why in the hell would anybody in their right mind vote for a guy whose last name is “Crapo?””

Don’t point fingers. WE had one named “Newt” – which is, in case you didn’t know, a slimy, slippery salamandar like creature.

Bud Wiser

July 22nd, 2009
4:51 pm

I am familiar with the meaning of ‘epiphany’, I just misspoke what it was about. I had written a rather lengthy reply to some previous posts, and when I clicked SUBMIT COMMENT, it subtracted instead of added, thus the blank.

Oh well.

Mrs G., I hope you caught my previous thread comments about St Maarten that you had referenced.

N-GA

July 22nd, 2009
4:52 pm

Eddy,

Please….Don’t go on and on because the UK and Canada don’t have anything like what Obama is proposing. There is a big difference between INSURANCE and government-provided healthcare. If you really G.A.S., do some of your own research rather than relying on the spin spewed daily by the opposition.

Curious Observer

July 22nd, 2009
4:53 pm

Well, at least Crapo’s kids had no choice about the last name. But I once taught a brother and sister named Masculan and Femily Jones. What kind of parents would hang names like those on their kids?

Kamchak

July 22nd, 2009
4:55 pm

“She turned me into a newt!”

“A newt?”

“I got better.”

Eddy

July 22nd, 2009
4:55 pm

And so N-GA, please answer my questions and give more details of the proposed plan. You said or implied that you know what is contained in O’s plan. Specifics???

DoggoneGA

July 22nd, 2009
4:56 pm

“What kind of parents would hang names like those on their kids?”

How about Moon Unit?

Mrs. Godzilla

July 22nd, 2009
4:56 pm

Bud….yep….

AHHHHHHH, just thinkin’ about it.

Raider

July 22nd, 2009
4:57 pm

Mrs Godzilla, I know its from the World Health Organization – but if you go their website and get the PDF file and download it – the last page (page 6) its says SOURCE UKNOWN. Explain that! They can not even site the source of that info. Again, explain that!

booger

July 22nd, 2009
4:57 pm

This entire thing is academic. Obama has already told two groups that if congress can’t get it passed, he will impose the reconciliation clause, and do it without congress.

Lord Help Us

July 22nd, 2009
4:59 pm

Geez, a few facts and Raider’s head explodes…

Congratulations, Raider, you flamed out even quicker than most of the lunatic fringe that fly by every now and then.

‘Facts have a liberal bias…’Man I love Colbert…

Eddy

July 22nd, 2009
5:03 pm

My point without belaboring it is that no one knows the specifics of his proposed healthcare plan. But a vote is supposed to be taken and O insists that it must pass. Should be a simple matter for one of his minions to detail what’s in the plan, what’s not in the plan, its costs in aggregate over what ever period of time, what are the savings and where do they come from, what’s the cost impact on the average family. Is that unreasonable?

Trust me

July 22nd, 2009
5:04 pm

Five million adults have lost insurance since Sept. 2008. I wonder how many need to stop making payments to insurance companies before it starts hurting their bottom line. Then, more and more people stop making those trips to the doctor and their bottom line starts feeling the pinch. The emergency rooms and Wal-Mart get more business but only one of them is able to turn a profit from it. If Republicans win their latest little battle against the citizens of the USofA, I wonder how voters will ‘feel’ about it. Go for it and let’s find out.

Trust me

July 22nd, 2009
5:09 pm

Well, if “no one knows” what’s in the plan, how can there be a plan because how can there be a plan in no one knows what’s in the plan. It’s just another Brick in the Wall.

Swami Dave

July 22nd, 2009
5:11 pm

…and in an alternative call to jacksmith:

Any of you who actually value freedom and opportunity make sure to support those candidates and oppose any who are going to follow lock-step (in “tribal” fashion as Jay might define it) in support of a plan that they will neither understand nor have probably even read.

Most of you in this group recognize that further nationalizing entire segments of our economy based on the liberal philosophy of diminishing quality and drastically increasing cost for the majority of Americans based on the self-appointed definitions of “equality” and “need” is an asinine plan that follows along in lemming-like fashion with some of history’s greatest government and bureaucratic debacles.

It goes without saying that most of you understand that taking what is earned by one individual or group to fund transfer payments and services to another group without fair exchange of value is theft. That would make those who continue to promote this historically-failed political theology either thieves themselves (who acquire power via the act of theft and redistribution) or those duped by the thieves based on their own misguided ideals of “fairness” or “justice”.

Go ahead and tell your elected representatives that you understand that this administration is wasting tax dollars (and dollars that we do not even have) at a historical pace growing exponentially on legislation and programs that worsen our ecnomic situation. Make sure to remind them that only fools (like JabberJoe Biden) are so stupid to think that you resolve problems like rampant spending, growing deficits, and a stagnating economy by greater unrestrained spending of more deficit-obtained dollars that further shrink and destablize our economy.

Also mention that you will be voting in 2010 and 2012, and much like 1980, the only way that clueless brigands of the lunatic left will see governance occurring will be from the gallery!

-SD

Raider

July 22nd, 2009
5:12 pm

Jack and Mrs Godzilla, while you are looking that crap up, let me ask you another question. Where are those 100 million dollar spending cuts? Its been 90 days – passed 90 days, and I do not see those cuts. On April 20th 2009, Obama and his cabinet said, we are to have 100 million dollar spending cuts for the 3 trillion dollar budget. Where are those cuts he promised? Dont tell me another lie. Obama is a lying machine! I need to keep a record of how many lies come out of his mouth. He will be for sure lying tonight! Take your time on that Source Uknown and those 100 million cuts, I will not be waiting!

N-GA

July 22nd, 2009
5:13 pm

Eddy,

I don’t know the details any more than you do. But you are spouting about the UK , Canadian and French healthcare programs as though that is what the administration is proposing for us, and that just isn’t so. They are entirely different approaches. If your only problem is with not knowing the details, then just say so. But don’t go off trying to compare apples to oranges.

md

July 22nd, 2009
5:14 pm

“Just what rights does a non-existent non-person get under the constitution or even in the Bible. What are these mythical rights. Spell ‘em out and then tell us all why they deserve them along with some basis to support your claims. People have rights. Living, breathing, viable people.”

Other than a definition, explain why a premature child born early and is now outside the womb has a different set of rights than the same age child inside the womb.

A seed will remain a seed until fertilized, at which point it becomes a life form with living cells. You and those like you can come up with all the definitions you want to justify your position, but the life form will never be a seed again.

DoggoneGA

July 22nd, 2009
5:19 pm

“Other than a definition, explain why a premature child born early and is now outside the womb has a different set of rights than the same age child inside the womb”

Maybe you don’t mean it to sound like this, but this reads to ME like an argument for forced, premature delivery of EVERY child ever conceived.

RW-(the original)

July 22nd, 2009
5:19 pm

The 37th place ranking of the United States’ health care system by the World Health Organization (W.H.O.) is not an assessment of the quality of American health care, but rather expresses the organization’s preference for public financing of health care, says Twila Brase, president of the Citizens’ Council on Health Care.

The W.H.O.’s June 2000 report, “The World Health Report 2000-Health Systems: Improving Performance,” finds the United States ranked number one, out of 191 countries surveyed, in responsiveness to patient’s needs for choice of provider, dignity, autonomy, timely care and confidentiality.

However, the W.H.O. faulted the U.S. for not requiring mandatory health insurance or offering social welfare programs to all citizens — thereby failing to meet the WHO’s fairness and distribution goals relative to total health-care resources.

http://www.ncpa.org/sub/dpd/index.php?Article_ID=9059

I Report :-) You Whine :-(

July 22nd, 2009
5:27 pm

Democrats as a rule aren’t very good at the political loyalty thing, certainly not as good as the Republicans are.

Just think, only a few short weeks ago Republicans were being scolded by this hack for shunning the squish moderate Republicans.

Now, all of a sudden, we’re robots.

And don’t get us wrong, toadies, we love your little health care bill, ever since you started shoving this thing down the throat of the American people, Obozo’s approval ratings have tanked.

Bravo, yes, let’s double down your bets, go for it.

And if that doesn’t trash his poll numbers, I say you should try to take our guns away.

Bring.

It.

On.

md

July 22nd, 2009
5:28 pm

“Maybe you don’t mean it to sound like this, but this reads to ME like an argument for forced, premature delivery of EVERY child ever conceived.”

Its actually a very simple question.

2 “beings” conceived at the exact same time. One goes full term of 9 months, the other comes out early at say 3 months, put on life support and survives. According to “trust me”, the one on the machine has “rights” and the other does not until it comes out.

Sounds like discrimination to me. Maybe the aclu needs to get involved, but I doubt they would actually help the ones that need it the most.

Trust me

July 22nd, 2009
5:29 pm

Other than a definition, explain why a premature child born early and is now outside the womb has a different set of rights than the same age child inside the womb.

A seed will remain a seed until fertilized, at which point it becomes a life form with living cells. You and those like you can come up with all the definitions you want to justify your position, but the life form will never be a seed again.

One topic at a time, why not! The post that I referenced did not contain any of this. It talked about the ‘unborn’. Is that a new horror flick. That’s hardly the same topic as one about a living, breathing person. Further, a seed is a seed. It may or may not sprout into a living breathing person and hence have the rights that are bestowed upon living, breathing persons. Now surely, people like you can quit proclaiming to know the positions of people like me. Then again, you would not be “people like you” any longer, would you.

jt

July 22nd, 2009
5:30 pm

Forethought we may have, undoubtedly, but not foresight.
Napoleon Bonapart, after Waterloo.

AmVet

July 22nd, 2009
5:30 pm

The US spends $7,129 per capita on health care—more than twice as much per capita as the rest of the industrialized world.

The US performs poorly in comparison on major health indicators such as life expectancy and infant mortality.

Inability to pay for medical bills is the leading cause of bankruptcies.

In our current system, there are thousands of different payers of health care fees.

This system is a bureaucratic nightmare, wasting $350 billion—close to a third of all health care spending on things that have nothing to do with health care—overhead, underwriting, billing, sales and marketing departments, huge profits and exorbitant executive pay.

In addition, there is over $200 billion in computerized billing fraud and abuse.

There is a better way.

Single payer.

http://www.votenader.org/issues/single-payer/

booger

July 22nd, 2009
5:31 pm

There has never been health care legislation which didn’t cost substantially more than was projected. Medicare for example was put in in 1965 with a first year cost estimate of $3 billion, and a projection that it would rise to $12 billion by 1990. In 1990 the costs were $109 billion, over 9 times the projection. The Massachutes plan which is only about four years old is already about 200% of what was projected.

Given this, and the fact that the congressional budjet office says the projections are way off, is it not reasonable to balk at the cram down approach Obama is taking, and insist that there at least be time for complete review before a vote is taken?

jt

July 22nd, 2009
5:33 pm

Speaking of Obama and Waterloo.

If you wish to be a success in the world, promise everything, deliver nothing.
Napoleon Bonaparte

Paul

July 22nd, 2009
5:35 pm

N-GA 4:29

Haven’t heard that phrase since the last time I watched one of my favorite movies, The Scarlet Pimpernel!

Bosch!

5:30 – didja notice? I feel an Abba moment coming…

jt

July 22nd, 2009
5:39 pm

Fascinating. It would seem as if Napoleon knew Obama.

With audacity one can undertake anything, but not accomplish nothing.
Napoleon Bonaparte

Trust me

July 22nd, 2009
5:45 pm

Some folks keep talking about the costs of other plans as though there is some ‘absolute’ going on here. Why not talk about the cost and quality of care offered by our current ‘plan’ and compare that to options. You know, so people can make decisions based on something other than feelings and conjecture and just flat out lies.

Bosch

July 22nd, 2009
5:50 pm

Everyone take cover!!! Paul feels an ABBA moment coming!!!

N-GA,

Yeah, of course he pronounces it “Cray-po” – I hope the guy has a great personality!

Kamchak,

I totally missed your Heather Mitts post!

Greg Mendel

July 22nd, 2009
5:54 pm

It’s a good idea to take a good, informed look at any plan for health care reform, but Congress isn’t doing that. They’re like passengers on the Titanic debating whether to pretend the ship isn’t sinking, board the lifeboats, or wait for a train. One thing is almost certain, if a reasonable (not perfect) health care reform bill is delayed too long, there simply won’t be any reform.

In my view, Obama, like Clinton, is trying to gain support by sucking up to the greedy cabal that is the root of the problem. In this case, compromise means no change.

Change, of course, scares people. Obama was elected because he promised change — which people wanted, until they were faced with it. The Republicans know this, and are using fear and ignorance to their advantage. There’s so much nonsense being hyped. Europe, especially France, has the best, most affordable health care in the world. Everybody’s covered, and they pay for it — just not nearly as much as we pay. Here, we have Medicare. If you qualify for Medicare, the government can’t turn you down, but doctors can. In such a case, it’s a private doctor, not the government, denying you care. Regardless of its faults, Obama’s reform is reform of COVERAGE, not a proposal for government-run medicine.

It’s a contest between protecting obscene profits versus providing affordable health care, and you can bet your life the profiteers will win.

md

July 22nd, 2009
5:58 pm

“Why not talk about the cost and quality of care offered by our current ‘plan’ and compare that to options.”

And there in lies the problem, for as it stands now there is only an option without the “s”. Why the hurry and where are the other options? We can come up with hundreds on this board given the chance, yet congress has one and it has to be done now. No it doesn’t.

booger

July 22nd, 2009
5:59 pm

Onew of the main reasons that Medicare and Medicaid projections were so vastly low is that they did not take into account expensive new technology which saves a lot of lives but costs a lot of money. One group who is studying the house bill says there are no provisions in the cost projections for technology which may drive costs up. If there is new technology, then we will go over budget to pay for it or its use will be discouraged or banned.

DoggoneGA

July 22nd, 2009
6:02 pm

“Sounds like discrimination to me”

Still sounds like an argument for forced premature delivery to me. IF, as you think, the 2 “beings” have the same right because they are at the same stage of development…you can’t leave out the THIRD BEING: the woman still carrying the foetus that has not yet been delivered. In order to avoid violating HER right to control her own body, you would HAVE to separate the foetus so that it is a distinct, separate being. Until that happens, either naturally or forced, the foetus is not a separate being with inherent rights of it’s own. It is still a symbiote of the woman carrying it, and is subordinate to her rights.

In order to preserve the woman’s rights AND to give the foetus IT’s “rights” there is no alternative, you would have to separate them.

jt

July 22nd, 2009
6:03 pm

5:35

Metrosexual- Check

TnGelding

July 22nd, 2009
6:05 pm

@@

July 22nd, 2009
3:37 pm

There’s fraud in every government program, but who is that a reflection on?

md

July 22nd, 2009
6:08 pm

Too bad CBO can’t write the bills as they appear to be the only ones that actually have a clue.

Trust me

July 22nd, 2009
6:11 pm

Some of us are all too familiar with the current system. That’s precisely why we want options. Not more of the same broken system. Not more of the greedy insurance companies and their multi-millionaire executives. Not more of the plans with ever-increasing premiums and co-pays for less and less coverage… .That’s not an option. Give us real options and let us pick what we want. Put a public option on the table and keep the current once-yearly renewal approach. People can try different plans from different folks and pick what they like. Even Romney got up off his buttocks and tried something. It may not be perfect but it is a lot better than just saying no to everything. That Republican mantra is DOA.

Bosch

July 22nd, 2009
6:12 pm

Paul,

Ha ha. Jt called you a metrosexual. Hehehehehehehe. He. He…

I have to warn you – I’m gonna be on an all clear liquid diet tomorrow, so I may be grumpy and mean. I wonder if the doctor will be okay with vodka and rum in my clear liquid diet?

md

July 22nd, 2009
6:14 pm

“In order to preserve the woman’s rights AND to give the foetus IT’s “rights” there is no alternative, you would have to separate them.”

I believe the women compromises her rights when she opens her legs. That is when she has made a choice to “share” her rights (not including forced pregnancies). Just because an individual made a poor choice does not diminish the rights of the other being in the equation. Every choice we make has a resulting consequence. Thats life, and its not always fair.

Bosch

July 22nd, 2009
6:16 pm

All this healthcare talk has got me to wondering about the folks who are having the same “issues” I’m having but don’t have either a) no insurance or b) sucky insurance.

TnGelding

July 22nd, 2009
6:18 pm

Mrs. Godzilla

July 22nd, 2009
4:19 pm

Yes on the recess. Make sure you attend your representatives THM everyone. And senator’s too, if they happen to have one in your area.

Only slightly off topic:

“You are what you eat” goes an old saying. How about “You remember what you eat”? More proof that diet can influence cognitive health and dementia was announced this week from a long-term study involving more than 3,000 people ages 65 and older who had no sign of dementia at its start.

http://blogs.ajc.com/better-health/2009/07/22/aging-caring-foods-that-prevent-memory-loss/

Trust me

July 22nd, 2009
6:21 pm

And there in lies the problem, for as it stands now there is only an option without the “s”. Why the hurry and where are the other options? We can come up with hundreds on this board given the chance, yet congress has one and it has to be done now. No it doesn’t.

Why the hurry! Is that some sort of sick joke. Do you think we live forever. Do you think that people in need of help can just be put on life support or in a freezer until you feel like taking time out of your busy schedule to do something. Clearly, that approach may be acceptable to you but not to the majority. If we (the majority) wanted more of the same, we could have voted for it. We did not.

Paul

July 22nd, 2009
6:25 pm

Bosch 6:12

Did I ever tell you about that passage I once read in a novel? Couple guys in a bar having a drink, guy next to them insults the guy (and by inference, his mother). Guy finishes his drink, other guy hurls another insult. Guy looks at his friend and says ‘let’s go.’ Friend says “after what he called you? You’re just gonna leave?” Guy says “why not? I’ve no idea who he is. Why should I value his opinion? If I reacted, I’d just be granting him power over me.”

DoggoneGA

July 22nd, 2009
6:25 pm

“I believe the women compromises her rights when she opens her legs. That is when she has made a choice to “share” her rights (not including forced pregnancies).”

So…I get it, and I’m not surprised. It’s all the woman’s fault. Ever heard of things like failure of birth control.? Or a woman’s health and life being compromised by her developing foetus? And, like it or not, it’s HER body and it’s under HER control.

You are left with only 2 choices: FORCE her to carry her foetus to term or do a FORCED pre-mature delivery.

Halibut Maoir

July 22nd, 2009
6:26 pm

If our Health Care is in such dire straits,please anyone from the left,why the hurry to ram a bill thats gong to cost taxpayers trillion’s of dollars down our throats without allowing time to fully read and understand it? Whatever happened to the transperancy that was promised? And why the August deadline? Or did I just answer my own question? Whats in this bill that Oboohoo does’nt want the American public to see? If I was a Democratic elected official I would be worried about fallout.

josef nix

July 22nd, 2009
6:28 pm

Bosch–here’s hoping things go well for you tomorrow. Thanks to you, spent the afternoon back to the future–Babylon 5 arrived…

md

July 22nd, 2009
6:29 pm

“Why the hurry! Is that some sort of sick joke.”

You must be the town drama queen. As of today, there is not one soul in this country that does not get care if its needed. That is currently illegal. So no, something doesn’t have to be done yesterday. Something needs to be done, but it also needs to be done RIGHT. Put in a hasty program for the sake of change, and what are the unintended consequences down the road and how many will that affect? We don’t know, but lets all run around like chickens with our heads cut of fand make a decision, any decision, doesn’t matter, just make a decision. Yea, thats a good idea. You’ll get far in life with that approach.

TnGelding

July 22nd, 2009
6:29 pm

Pelosi bluffing?

Jul 22, 3:33 PM (ET)

By DAVID ESPO

WASHINGTON (AP) – Speaker Nancy Pelosi says Democrats have the votes to pass health care legislation in the House, even though negotiations are under way to make changes in the bill to satisfy some of its critics.

The House’s top Democrat declined to say when she will call for the vote on President Barack Obama’s top domestic priority. She says she wants to see what the Senate’s plans are.

The California Democrat made her comments at a news conference Wednesday. She spoke as conservatives and the White House seek changes to impose greater cost controls on health care. Other members of the rank and file seek additional changes.

Trust me

July 22nd, 2009
6:31 pm

I believe the women compromises her rights when she opens her legs. That is when she has made a choice to “share” her rights (not including forced pregnancies). Just because an individual made a poor choice does not diminish the rights of the other being in the equation. Every choice we make has a resulting consequence. Thats life, and its not always fair

So, what does the male do all the while. After all, it still takes a combination of a sperm and an egg in a successful union for anything at all to develop. For starters, I think that if the male wants the child but the female does not, then the male should be impregnated — transfer the fertilized egg to the other owner of said pregnancy. After all, she only spread her legs, his third leg rose to the challenge. We do have the technology to let the male carry that fertilized egg. Quit dumping it all on the female.

Paul

July 22nd, 2009
6:32 pm

Bosch

Your last post – guess I’ll get personal and tell you what’s shaped my current outlook. I’ve a great health insurance policy, one I wouldn’t object to having taxed. In the last few years my wife had kidney cancer. Treatment at MD Anderson. Five percent survival rate, she’s in that five percent. I’ve a son who lost his entire large intestine to ulcerative colitis. He had a son, many weeks premature (and some here wonder why I had such disdain for that doc in Kansas – not that he was murdered, just for him a a person – who did late term abortions for flimsy reasons) who went right into neonatal intensive care.

And I wondered – what if it’d been my other son who had a lousy health insurance policy? What if I’d been one of the guys who’d lost his job and benefits and COBRA had run out? It was only by good fortune things worked out the way they didn’t. And they could have gone the other way, very easily.

So yeah, I think our system needs reform. And I’m really, really ticked at how the House Dems and the Administration have squandered a once-in-years opportunity through their lack of leadership and sellout to special interests.

md

July 22nd, 2009
6:32 pm

“If we (the majority) wanted more of the same, we could have voted for it.”

You shouldn’t assume that because people voted for Barry, that all of them wanted all of his programs. That would be unwise, as many voted based only on the economy, and many were independents and already have buyers remorse.

Trust me

July 22nd, 2009
6:32 pm

You must be the town drama queen. As of today, there is not one soul in this country that does not get care if its needed. That is currently illegal. So no, something doesn’t have to be done yesterday. Something needs to be done, but it also needs to be done RIGHT. Put in a hasty program for the sake of change, and what are the unintended consequences down the road and how many will that affect? We don’t know, but lets all run around like chickens with our heads cut of fand make a decision, any decision, doesn’t matter, just make a decision. Yea, thats a good idea. You’ll get far in life with that approach.

Got anything other than your word for any of that, drama queen.

Paul

July 22nd, 2009
6:34 pm

Bosch

Oh, and vodka qualifies!

TnGelding

After the torture fiasco and “we’ll have enough savings by getting rid of waste to pay for the health care bill” this Speaker still has credibility?!!?

Trust me

July 22nd, 2009
6:36 pm

You shouldn’t assume that because people voted for Barry, that all of them wanted all of his programs. That would be unwise, as many voted based only on the economy, and many were independents and already have buyers remorse.

You should not make so many assumptions yourself. If we wanted more of the GOP policy, we would have voted for more of the same and that includes the failed economic policies of the Republican party.

TnGelding

July 22nd, 2009
6:37 pm

The more things change:

“White House declines to disclose visits by health industry executives
Citing an argument used by the Bush administration, the Secret Service rejects a request from a watchdog group to list those who have visited the White House to discuss the healthcare overhaul.”

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-na-healthcare-talks22-2009jul22,0,7434392.story?track=rss

Chris Salzmann

July 22nd, 2009
6:37 pm

Here are some of the lies being thrown out there for the uninformed public:

MYTH: EVERYONE will be forced to go on government health care.
REALITY: Everyone who is on an employer program or is happy with their current program will stay there. This program is aimed at those who cannot get health care insurance because of cost (unemployed, self-employed, none-insured, etc) or eligibility (pre-existing conditions, etc). Bottom line is that its OPTIONAL if you already have insurance.

MYTH: Congress has exempted itself from this plan.
REALITY: Since this is a choice based plan, no one is forced into it unless they need it. i.e, I’m happy with my employer based plan, why should I switch? Same choice confronting congress. Again, its OPTIONAL for those who already have insurance.

MYTH: The government plan will suck.
REALITY: It may, truthfully we don’t know that yet. Bottom line is that we need to bring in those 50 million Americans who have no insurance and those additional millions of Americans who have insurance but who have chronic or pre-existing conditions exempted under their current health care insurance plans.

So what about OPTIONAL do some people not understand. I hope Obama clears this up.

md

July 22nd, 2009
6:37 pm

“So…I get it, and I’m not surprised. It’s all the woman’s fault. Ever heard of things like failure of birth control.? Or a woman’s health and life being compromised by her developing foetus? And, like it or not, it’s HER body and it’s under HER control.”

Yea, I’ve heard of them all. And there are always exceptions. But generally speaking, one should be held accountable for their actions, and all actions have consequences.

Punishing an innocent for anothers action just isn’t right.

Halibut Maoir

July 22nd, 2009
6:40 pm

A more open White House-Bull!!! Only thing more open is taxpayers wallets. Please don’t look in mine-empty.

DoggoneGA

July 22nd, 2009
6:42 pm

“Whats in this bill ”

What does the public EVER see of ANY bill, before it’s voted on?

md

July 22nd, 2009
6:42 pm

“Got anything other than your word for any of that, drama queen.”

Since it is illegal, why wouldn’t it be the case. Maybe you need to produce evidence and have some folks locked up if you believe otherwise.

Scooter

July 22nd, 2009
6:42 pm

I had a brain storm.(Ya’ll take cover)- Sinse no one wants to pay for me to have health ins. why don’t we use the aid we send to other countries for our own people?

Bud Wiser

July 22nd, 2009
6:43 pm

I sense a real unspoken problem with the title on this thread, “Democrats ‘tribal loyalty…’, this being the party of the 94%ers and all.

It smacks of the typical racism of the left that they laugh off and then smugly try to pawn off on everyone but themselves. What tribe are we referring to here anyway; Watusi, Arapaho, Australian Aborigines, just WHAT???

Had I or another conservative made reference to Democrats as ‘tribes’, or ‘tribal’, the machete of the censor would have hacked it off at the knees. And that is in fact the truest statement made on this blog today by anyone.

The left’s double standards make rational Americans sick to their stomachs. Your main problem is that it is the elephant in your room that you cannot even see. And deny. And accuse everyone else of being…

Bosch

July 22nd, 2009
6:43 pm

Joseph nix,

Thanks! And if I’m meaner than usual tomorrow, I’m either drunk on vodka/rum or po’ed cause I’m starving. An afternoon of Babylon 5 sounds great! I feel that I’m gonna have some afternoons in my near future where I’m laid up needing good TV.

Paul,

Yeap! I’m glad your wife and your son are doing well. I’m facing something similar to your son, at least I hope – funny how you pray you just need surgery – yeah, like “Sweet! I just have to have surgery! Yippeeeee!!!!!” Honestly, I’ll just be happy when I can eat something and not double over in pain. That’s why I got such a kick out of the kid at the doctor’s office yesterday.

DoggoneGA

July 22nd, 2009
6:45 pm

“Punishing an innocent for anothers action just isn’t right”

Well, if you’re religious you better take it up with whatever God you believe in, then…because the most egregious “abortionist” of them all is God.

josef nix

July 22nd, 2009
6:46 pm

I heard or read somewhere just a day or so ago that 60% of the bankruptcies in the country are the result of not being able to meet medical costs. Does anyone know if that stat is correct?

Bud Wiser

July 22nd, 2009
6:46 pm

Salzmann, have you read the ‘plan’?

Check page 114 in the published bill for the exemption for Congress and/or elected officials.

Then crawl on your knees like your master and beg forgiveness.

md

July 22nd, 2009
6:46 pm

“You should not make so many assumptions yourself. If we wanted more of the GOP policy,”

We – you got a mouse in your pocket?

My “assumptions” are based on actual conversations with other independants that actuall voted for Barry, and many of them are not pleased with the performance so far. I would think the latest polling numbers would back that up.

And if your “we” refers to other democrats, you do realize that independants put Barry in the WH, not democrats. Independants vote in our presidents, not either party.

Chris Salzmann

July 22nd, 2009
6:47 pm

DoggoneGA July 22nd, 2009 6:45 pm SAID: “Punishing an innocent for anothers action just isn’t right”

Well, if you’re religious you better take it up with whatever God you believe in, then…because the most egregious “abortionist” of them all is God.

CHRIS SAYS: ROFLMAO! I gotta use that next time! Very good point!

Raider

July 22nd, 2009
6:49 pm

People, I just caught 2 liberal posters in lies today, Jack smith and Mrs Godzilla. The World Health Organzations Rankings are FAKE! On the PDF file(page 6) it says, Source Unknown. If you can not cite the source, then its FAKE! Liberals always lie! They do not have facts, they do not have sources, they only have lies. And that liberal President tonight will be spewing more lies about Obamacare – Government controlled Health Care. Don’t kid yourself, that is excatly what it will be. Yes sir, catching lying liberals is what I do here. Because I’m only looking out for you and America. I stand for Truth, Justice and the American way!
Raider do you have anything to say to the press
“Putting liberals/socialists in their place, nothing but a bunch of liars!”

Chris Salzmann

July 22nd, 2009
6:51 pm

Bud Wiser July 22nd, 2009 6:46 pm SAID: Salzmann, have you read the ‘plan’?

Check page 114 in the published bill for the exemption for Congress and/or elected officials.

Then crawl on your knees like your master and beg forgiveness.

CHRIS SAYS:Put up the link to the Plan you’re looking at.

TnGelding

July 22nd, 2009
6:52 pm

Scooter

July 22nd, 2009
6:42 pm

Good sentiment, but…

Myth: The United States spends way too much on foreign aid.

Realty: The United States spends only a minuscule amount on foreign aid.

http://truthmonk.wordpress.com/2008/04/21/does-the-united-states-spend-too-much-on-foreign-aid/

Paul

July 22nd, 2009
6:52 pm

Bosch

You’ll be in our thoughts and prayers.

I’ll even have a drink for ya’ tonight!

DoggoneGA

July 22nd, 2009
6:53 pm

“CHRIS SAYS: ROFLMAO! I gotta use that next time! Very good point!”

Thanks! Of course, I’ve used it before and did once get a reply that there was no such thing as a “spontaneous abortion”…how could you even BEGIN to have a discussion with someone who is that ignorant?

md

July 22nd, 2009
6:53 pm

“Well, if you’re religious you better take it up with whatever God you believe in, then…because the most egregious “abortionist” of them all is God.”

Sounds like another excuse to justify ones actions. So be it.

I choose to stand behind the innocent vs against them.

TnGelding

July 22nd, 2009
6:55 pm

josef nix

July 22nd, 2009
6:46 pm

It’s in that range, at least 50%.

josef nix

July 22nd, 2009
6:58 pm

TnGelding–thanks.

DoggoneGA

July 22nd, 2009
7:00 pm

“Sounds like another excuse to justify ones actions. So be it.

I choose to stand behind the innocent vs against them”

Well, since you have not denied being religious…since God allows spontaneous abortions to happen, how do you KNOW that induced abortions are not just another way that God allows pregnancies to end?

Yes, it might just be that it’s “another excuse to justify ones actions”…that’s what comes with being allowed by God to be able to make independent decisions. Sometimes they aren’t the right ones. And sometimes they might be the right ones, but that’s not apparent to anyone outside the decision making process.

Greg Mendel

July 22nd, 2009
7:01 pm

Halibut (6:26 PM):

We will pay 2 to 3 trillion dollars (estimates vary) for Bush’s invasion of Iraq, for which we have gained nothing and lost plenty. As I recall, we couldn’t postpone the invasion another minute. If we can afford a war against an imaginary problem, we can pony up some bucks to offer affordable health coverage to our own people. (I won’t even mention who was president when the economy melted.)

Obama has put forward facts, figures and details. You can Google them anytime. (Or you can tune into his presser at 8:00 PM tonight — if you really want to know the answer to your question.) Projections are always “iffy,” no matter who is doing the projecting. Most Americans didn’t bat an eye when Bush said “Just trust me” as reassurance for invading Iraq. We didn’t know WE had to pay for it!

Our health care system IS in dire straits, and the straits become more dire every year. Americans who are still employed and do have insurance are paying far more and getting less. If you have good insurance (only in America do people qualify their insurance as “good”) and are healthy, there’s no problem. If you have kids, they are unlikely to have insurance around age 22 unless you can keep them on your policy, which isn’t easy. If you lose your job, you’re likely to lose your health care.

Obama has a plan, but he’s asking for a bill. It may not conform to his plan, and he’s said so. But he knows that the longer we wait, the chances of reform diminish drastically.

I’m not particularly “left,” btw. I’m much closer to Eisenhower than Pelosi.

josef nix

July 22nd, 2009
7:04 pm

Doggone;
“What does the public EVER see of ANY bill, before it’s voted on?”

Bud Wiser:
“Check page 114 in the published bill for the exemption for Congress and/or elected officials.”

DebbieDoRight

July 22nd, 2009
7:06 pm

md: Im a registered independant, but do you really want to talk about rights considering the rights (or lack of) for the unborn.

When did fetuses get rights? And if they can have rights, why can’t aliens? What about little green men, what about THEIR rights?

md

July 22nd, 2009
7:09 pm

Deb,

You have some reading to do, been there done that already.

DoggoneGA

July 22nd, 2009
7:10 pm

““Check page 114 in the published bill for the exemption for Congress and/or elected officials.””

But that is not necessarily the bill that will be voted on. What is published is not the BILL, it is only the proposed bill. It can change with any number of additions and deletions before it actually comes up for a final vote. At best, what is published only shows the direction of the bill at the moment it is published. It might have little to nothing to do with the final version that comes up for a final vote.

Scooter

July 22nd, 2009
7:10 pm

TnG, Thanks for the link. I thought we spent way more than that. OK, I guess my idea wasn’t so good. I’ll think of something though!

josef nix

July 22nd, 2009
7:11 pm

DDD:

When did fetuses get rights?

Not trying to “take sides” here, but my question has been why, in the case of the murder of a pregnant woman, is the perpetrator chaged with double “homicide?”

Bosch

July 22nd, 2009
7:16 pm

Paul,

Just make sure it’s vodka or rum – I don’t want to have to blame you if my test is screwed up on Friday morning. Don’t make me go there.

josef nix

July 22nd, 2009
7:20 pm

Doggone–
“At best, what is published only shows the direction of the bill at the moment it is published. It might have little to nothing to do with the final version that comes up for a final vote.”

When is the final version published in relation to the final vote?

josef nix

July 22nd, 2009
7:21 pm

Bosch–was going to have a drink for you, too, but best not since mine is red wine!

Raider

July 22nd, 2009
7:23 pm

Greg, you are such a liar. You said “Obama has put forward facts, figures and details”, is that why the other day while talking on the phone to a blogger he couldn’t answer what was on page 16 of this health care bill. Obama doesn’t even know what is in this bill you idiot! We are not fooled by your liberal stance. Do you know why he doesn’t have facts figures and details, because he hasn’t read the damn thing. Greg have you always been a liberal lying loser?

DoggoneGA

July 22nd, 2009
7:27 pm

“Not trying to “take sides” here, but my question has been why, in the case of the murder of a pregnant woman, is the perpetrator chaged with double “homicide?””

Because you have to take into account the woman’s, and her family’s, emotional attachment to the foetus as their forthcoming child. Plus, it’s another way to increase the potential punishment should the defendent be found guilty. Not to be too facetious, but it’s kind of like those states that have laws against driving barefoot. No one is going to stop you and check to see if you are wearing shoes, but IF you get stopped for something else and you are barefoot…it’s another charge to add to the “sheet”

md

July 22nd, 2009
7:28 pm

” but my question has been why, in the case of the murder of a pregnant woman, is the perpetrator chaged with double “homicide?””

Careful Jo, they already side against the innocent, now you will have them advocating for sentence reduction of murderers.

DoggoneGA

July 22nd, 2009
7:29 pm

“When is the final version published in relation to the final vote?”

After it’s voted on…in the Congressional Record. There’s just no way to publish the final version beforehand, because it might be amended and changed right up to the moment before the final vote.

RW-(the original)

July 22nd, 2009
7:29 pm

josef nix,

You might want to look at a little more perspective on the medical cost/bankruptcy debate. It’s not as cut and dries as the “50%” crowd would have you believe.

RW-(the original)

July 22nd, 2009
7:31 pm

Raider,

I linked a story on page 2 of this topic that deals with the WHO ranking. It says the US is number 1 in providing care but rank us 37 because we aren’t socialist enough for them.

Raider

July 22nd, 2009
7:35 pm

RW, those rankings are fake – read my earlier posts

DoggoneGA

July 22nd, 2009
7:37 pm

“now you will have them advocating for sentence reduction of murderers.”

Spoke too soon.

Trust me

July 22nd, 2009
7:38 pm

Since it is illegal, why wouldn’t it be the case. Maybe you need to produce evidence and have some folks locked up if you believe otherwise.

What specifically is the “it” that is “illegal” that you refer to and I will try to properly respond. Further, what evidence would you like me to produce and why do some folks need to be locked up because of some beliefs. Please clarify.

RW-(the original)

July 22nd, 2009
7:39 pm

Raider,

I read your earlier posts and I’m trying to help you out here.

@@

July 22nd, 2009
7:41 pm

TnG:

There’s fraud in every government program, but who is that a reflection on?

Have you ever googled medicare fraud? It runs the gamut — from government workers within the system, to doctors, to street hustlers…even your neighbor, John Q. Public.

It’s government’s incompetence that allows it to run amok. What’s it to them? To the government it’s free money…yours and mine. When it runs out they can always confiscate more.

Trust me

July 22nd, 2009
7:41 pm

We – you got a mouse in your pocket?

Do you? And, what does that have to do with this subject.

My “assumptions” are based on actual conversations with other independants that actuall voted for Barry, and many of them are not pleased with the performance so far. I would think the latest polling numbers would back that up.

Assumptions are still assumptions regardless of who dreams them up. You got any facts to deal with instead of your friend’s assumptions.

And if your “we” refers to other democrats, you do realize that independants put Barry in the WH, not democrats. Independants vote in our presidents, not either party.

Got proof.

Raider

July 22nd, 2009
7:44 pm

RW, then I say thank you brother.

josef nix

July 22nd, 2009
7:46 pm

Thanks for the responses to my questions. Both are those I’m still trying to formulate my own opinions on and I appreciate the input. Seriously!

Trust me

July 22nd, 2009
7:47 pm

“Well, if you’re religious you better take it up with whatever God you believe in, then…because the most egregious “abortionist” of them all is God.”

Sounds like another excuse to justify ones actions. So be it.

I choose to stand behind the innocent vs against them.

Excuse to justify what action. The action of a monthly cleansing. They (women) came equipped with that feature in case you have not noticed. And, why not stand beside all the innocent people instead of behind some words.

md

July 22nd, 2009
7:48 pm

“Do you? And, what does that have to do with this subject.”

Your the one posting as “we”.

“Assumptions are still assumptions regardless of who dreams them up. You got any facts to deal with instead of your friend’s assumptions.”

Are you really that slow? Actual converstions with individuals that voted for Barry are hardly “assumptions. What are you finding so difficult to understand.

“Got proof.”

Google is your friend. Look it up.

Trust me

July 22nd, 2009
7:50 pm

Not trying to “take sides” here, but my question has been why, in the case of the murder of a pregnant woman, is the perpetrator chaged with double “homicide?”

Is that true in all cases in all states. What about Illinois and the woman was found to have just tested positive the same day using a Wal-Mart test kit.

DoggoneGA

July 22nd, 2009
7:51 pm

“And, why not stand beside all the innocent people instead of behind some words”

Because abortion foes NEVER want to come right out and say, plainly, that they WOULD force a woman to carry a pregnancy to term…regardless of the outcome to HER. Because if you ever allow ANY exceptions, then you are FOR abortions.

md

July 22nd, 2009
7:52 pm

“Excuse to justify what action.”

You really are having a hard time with comprhension. Read all the posts and follow the bouncing ball.

The action of taking the life of an innocent.

Trust me

July 22nd, 2009
7:55 pm

“Do you? And, what does that have to do with this subject.”

Your the one posting as “we”.

I clarified my use of the word “we” as being the majority, the ones that voted for a change.

“Assumptions are still assumptions regardless of who dreams them up. You got any facts to deal with instead of your friend’s assumptions.”

Are you really that slow? Actual converstions with individuals that voted for Barry are hardly “assumptions. What are you finding so difficult to understand.

Are you that slow? You are the one that stated that you got assumptions from conversations from your friends. What are you finding so difficult to understand about your words.

“Got proof.”

Google is your friend. Look it up.

Got proof. Give me the google results to back up your own claims. Don’t ask me to prove your claims for you.

Trust me

July 22nd, 2009
8:02 pm

“Excuse to justify what action.”

You really are having a hard time with comprhension. Read all the posts and follow the bouncing ball.

The action of taking the life of an innocent.

Follow your own bouncing ball. If you want to present something, then do it and back it up with verifiable facts. That is assuming you want to be taken seriously. I’ve read all the posts and you make no sense. You just keep throwing up childish remarks. So, elaborate on this latest statement of yours, “The action of taking the life of an innocent”. You might try using that as a basis for a complete thought to start with. Try explaining some of the basics such as the “who”, “what”, “when”, “where”, “why”, “how”. For example, What action taken by whom in the taking of what life that was an innocent life, how, when, where and why.

md

July 22nd, 2009
8:03 pm

“Got proof. Give me the google results to back up your own claims. Don’t ask me to prove your claims for you.”

I’m not the one disputing my claims, and I have already looked it up. Give it a try – educate yourself.

“Are you that slow? You are the one that stated that you got assumptions from conversations from your friends. What are you finding so difficult to understand about your words”

My words from 6:30 – That would be unwise, as many voted based only on the economy, and many were independents and already have buyers remorse.

“Assumptions” was introduced by you in relation to my words, not the other way around. I assumed nothing in relaying my actual conversations. Geeeez.

md

July 22nd, 2009
8:07 pm

“I’ve read all the posts and you make no sense.”

Funny how I’ve had a running debate with several posters on here that seem to have no problem understanding the conversation, yet you get lost. Sounds like a personal problem.

DoggoneGA

July 22nd, 2009
8:13 pm

“Follow your own bouncing ball.”

Trust Me…I think you need to back off a bit. md and I have been having a conversation about abortions. If you’ve been following the “ball” you should KNOW THAT and you should KNOW what is meant by the taking of an innocent life. I’m not having ANY trouble following the thoughts expressed, why are you…IF you really ARE paying attention?

yeah right

July 22nd, 2009
8:18 pm

Your liberal bias is showing, meshugga.

Pogo

July 22nd, 2009
8:18 pm

Liberals/Progressives want action. They don’t care if it is right or wrong. They just want something to happen. It is the “idea” of change and action that matters. It is this rush to action, which is so dear to their progressive hearts that makes them politically self destructive. When the people learn the social costs of their experiments, they are turned out in droves at the polling places. It is about to happen again.

DoggoneGA

July 22nd, 2009
8:22 pm

“Liberals/Progressives want action”

Yep. Just like “we” wanted ACTION in Iraq…sound familiar? Those responsible didn’t care if it was right or wrong either, they just wanted something to happen.

Bosch

July 22nd, 2009
8:23 pm

Well hell – after hearing Obama now, i don’t care if he’s Kenyan!

DebbieDoRight

July 22nd, 2009
8:27 pm

josef: When did fetuses get rights? Not trying to “take sides” here, but my question has been why, in the case of the murder of a pregnant woman, is the perpetrator chaged with double “homicide?”

That’s only a recent phenomenon and it’s a back door way of abolishing Pro Choice. Traditionally, an offender could NOT be charged with homicide of a fetus; however recent events, Laci Peterson, one of the more recent cases; have shifted towards this trend. However, in these cases, the ladies are usually near term, (ready to deliver), and if the child had had the opportunity to be born, they had a 98% chance of living outside of the womb.

md: Hey, sorry!! I had to take some time off the board to go kiss my husband and make him feel special!! You know how guys are……they need lots of attention!!

Paul

July 22nd, 2009
8:33 pm

Bosch 8:23

Or one of them foreigners out of that Pacific Hawaii place, either!

DebbieDoRight

July 22nd, 2009
8:35 pm

Bosch Well hell – after hearing Obama now, i don’t care if he’s Kenyan!

Too funny!!

jt

July 22nd, 2009
8:35 pm

I heard all I could stomach of President Obama.

Do bad he is the leader of such an evil entity. He is very charismatic.

Regardless, he keeps harping on 200 BILLION dollars worth of fraud, waste, and abuse in our current system. He should fix that first before dumping more money into it.

Also, he is spewing the tired old anecdotes about people loosing their houses and stuff because of catastrophic illness. How is this costing me, the tax payer, money?

More goverment is NEVER the answer. Make insurance 100% tax deductable for individuals or shut up about it.

jt

July 22nd, 2009
8:40 pm

And all you whiners with pre-existing conditions that “claim” you are denied insurance, band together and lobby congress for relief.

Why should I have to pay for your puny arses?

DoggoneGA

July 22nd, 2009
8:45 pm

“Why should I have to pay for your puny arses?”

Translation: I got mine, screw yours

RW-(the original)

July 22nd, 2009
8:46 pm

after hearing Obama now, i don’t care if he’s Kenyan!

Hopefully that’s because you’ve now figured out he’s a clueless buffoon, but somehow I doubt it.

jt

July 22nd, 2009
8:53 pm

Translation: I got mine, screw yours.

I wouldn’t screw yours. Conversely, I wish them the best, but my children and my parents are my responsibilty. Not yours or the goverment. I would not steal YOUR money to help my family.

getalife

July 22nd, 2009
8:54 pm

He is doing well in the press conference.

“Saad Bin Laden, Osama’s Son, Killed By American Missile in Pakistan: US Officials”.

Too bad daddy was not there.

Trust me

July 22nd, 2009
8:54 pm

Funny how I’ve had a running debate with several posters on here that seem to have no problem understanding the conversation, yet you get lost. Sounds like a personal problem.

No so-called personal problem on my part. I chimed in when I saw this statement from md:

I’m a registered independant, but do you really want to talk about rights considering the rights (or lack of) for the unborn.

My response to this from md was this:

Just what rights does a non-existent non-person get under the constitution or even in the Bible. What are these mythical rights. Spell ‘em out and then tell us all why they deserve them along with some basis to support your claims. People have rights. Living, breathing, viable people.

md replied with this:

Other than a definition, explain why a premature child born early and is now outside the womb has a different set of rights than the same age child inside the womb.

A seed will remain a seed until fertilized, at which point it becomes a life form with living cells. You and those like you can come up with all the definitions you want to justify your position, but the life form will never be a seed again.

To which I responded with:

One topic at a time, why not! The post that I referenced did not contain any of this. It talked about the ‘unborn’. Is that a new horror flick. That’s hardly the same topic as one about a living, breathing person. Further, a seed is a seed. It may or may not sprout into a living breathing person and hence have the rights that are bestowed upon living, breathing persons. Now surely, people like you can quit proclaiming to know the positions of people like me. Then again, you would not be “people like you” any longer, would you.

After all that, my original inquiry regarding the statement about the rights or lack of rights for the unborn, from md’s post, still remained unanswered. The topics just kept changing and the childish remarks kept on coming. All I was asking for was an answer to the original inquiry. Instead, md replied with this:

“Why not talk about the cost and quality of care offered by our current ‘plan’ and compare that to options.”

And there in lies the problem, for as it stands now there is only an option without the “s”. Why the hurry and where are the other options? We can come up with hundreds on this board given the chance, yet congress has one and it has to be done now. No it doesn’t.

which was a reply to a post on a different train of thought from the original. In fact, it was a reply to this post of mine at 5:45:

Some folks keep talking about the costs of other plans as though there is some ‘absolute’ going on here. Why not talk about the cost and quality of care offered by our current ‘plan’ and compare that to options. You know, so people can make decisions based on something other than feelings and conjecture and just flat out lies.

From there, the exchange continued on the line of thought that I started until I switched back to one of md’s new wild comments with my post at 6:31:

“I believe the women compromises her rights when she opens her legs. That is when she has made a choice to “share” her rights (not including forced pregnancies). Just because an individual made a poor choice does not diminish the rights of the other being in the equation. Every choice we make has a resulting consequence. Thats life, and its not always fair.”

So, what does the male do all the while. After all, it still takes a combination of a sperm and an egg in a successful union for anything at all to develop. For starters, I think that if the male wants the child but the female does not, then the male should be impregnated — transfer the fertilized egg to the other owner of said pregnancy. After all, she only spread her legs, his third leg rose to the challenge. We do have the technology to let the male carry that fertilized egg. Quit dumping it all on the female.
I don’t recall seeing a reply from md on that one. Further md never addressed my original inquiry.

Let’s see, did I miss anything relevant.

I Report :-) You Whine :-(

July 22nd, 2009
8:55 pm

So what did Obozo’s TelePrompter lie about?

DoggoneGA

July 22nd, 2009
8:55 pm

“I would not steal YOUR money to help my family.”

If you have, and use, any form of insurance…yes, you would and have.

Paul

July 22nd, 2009
8:57 pm

Uh-oh. He just answered the Prof Gates/Harvard arrest as if all the facts were in. Prof Gates said he showed the cop his ID, cop said he refused and became belligerent. Pres Obama answered as if the Gates story was the only version.

That’ll get some play….

Paul

July 22nd, 2009
8:58 pm

getalife 8:54

Well, we can always hope

Like Son, Like Father!

Brittancus

July 22nd, 2009
9:01 pm

It tends to make a lot of good people despondent and at the least susceptible, when they read, watch and listen to the maverick storm of media ads, thumping down President Obama’s health care initiative? Much of the rambling artifacts are the Simon and Lois ads of the Clinton administration, heavily armed against any revisions in this issue that wealthy insurance companies and subsidiaries won’t tolerate.

They insulted the senior citizens with their propaganda and bald faced lies about the European government run health care system. Being originally an Englishman myself, I guarantee in the 1960’s, we had a unique form of medical services, inclusive of eye and teeth. Even government run medical care in Australia was exceptional. It did plummet down somewhat, when business starting recruiting foreign labor from the commonwealth and Northern Europe. Many were out for a free financial ride and got it, along with their large families that British citizens have to support with their limited pounds sterling.

Just as the anti-governmental health care extremists have been pounding the airwaves, the open border, globalist is now subjecting the American people to a torrent of inflaming immigration polls. But like all polls they can be intentional manipulated, in exactly how the questions are worded? Sure they can keep their co-pays, deductibles and pre-existing small-print clauses, squeezing every penny from a hurting economy, but tell the–BLOODY TRUTH!

It’s a sad fact that you cannot trust the Liberal slant regarding this searing problem, although not all Liberals are favorable to another AMNESTY? The Democratic leadership, hiding liberal views behind closed drapes tried to annihilate any good, workable illegal immigration enforcement laws. In an earlier session of the Senate an error was made with E-Verify, so it’s was fortunate to survive Sen. Reid and Pelosi’s notion? Anything that has an impact on removing illegal immigrants is intercepted by business oriented free traders.

GOOGLE—illegal immigration–to find out their sinister intention, to just throw open the gates, ports and airline entrances to cheap labor, that also become the downfall of the European Union. the polling I have seen has been calculatedly –ENGINEERED–to get results, that they can brandish around, declaring the majority of Americans believe in a path to citizenship and open borders? Already the Democrats are ready to flag the Save Act, 287(g) local police enforcement to weaken these laws.

Currently both issues have heavy fallout, and you the voter should let your Senator or Representative know your opinion on either matter at 202-224-3121—BEFORE IT’S TOO LATE. Both have massive consequences in costs and quality of life in your future and generations to come.WE MUST SAY NO AMNESTY! SEAL OUR BORDERS AND NO MORE FREEBIES TO ILLEGAL ALIENS. THEY ARE THE CRIMINALS, NOT AMERICANS WHO SACRIFICE TAXES? GOOGLE–NUMBERSUSA for details our government and the media have a nefarious talent, for keeping facts under wraps?

Raider

July 22nd, 2009
9:08 pm

What in the hell was that tonight! Did anybody understand what the hell he said! I almost fell asleep 10 minutes into it. Damn he is almost as boring as Al Gore.

electrician

July 22nd, 2009
9:11 pm

If someone wanted to build a house,and took their life savings and bought all the materials needed to build that house,down to the last nail,and had them transported to the construction site,and someone came in the night and took ALL of said materials. would the thief be denying that person of their home ,or just materials to build that home.this is abortion,the destruction of what could be.abortion is legal and probably always will be,but call it what it is…its killing.

TGT

July 22nd, 2009
9:11 pm

You’ve got to love Coulter. A sampling of her latest:

“The reason seeing a doctor is already more like going to the DMV, and less like going to the Apple “Genius Bar,” is that the government decided health care was too important to be left to the free market…As a result, it’s easier to get your computer fixed than your health. Thanks, government!

“We already have near-universal health coverage in the form of Medicare, Medicaid, veterans’ hospitals, emergency rooms and tax-deductible employer-provided health care — all government creations.

“So now, everyone expects doctors to be free. People who pay $200 for a haircut are indignant if it costs more than a $20 co-pay to see a doctor.

“The government also “helped” us by mandating that insurance companies cover all sorts of medical services, both ordinary — which you ought to pay for yourself — and exotic, such as shrinks, in vitro fertilization and child-development assessments — which no normal person would voluntarily pay to insure against…

“Insurance plans that force everyone in the plan to pay for everyone else’s Viagra and anti-anxiety pills are already completely unfair to people who rarely go to the doctor. It’s like being forced to share gas bills with a long-haul trucker or a restaurant bill with Michael Moore.”

getalife

July 22nd, 2009
9:13 pm

Paul,

They said he was not targeted but at the wrong place at the wrong time.

He was under house arrest in Iran but went to Pakistan hopefully to be with dad.

I think we might get him if he is in Pakistan.

jt

July 22nd, 2009
9:15 pm

Raider-you asked.

What in the hell was that tonight?

That was a waterloo moment.

Thank God.

DoggoneGA

July 22nd, 2009
9:17 pm

“but call it what it is…its killing”

And anyone who would deny that is delusional…so what’s your point?

I Report :-) You Whine :-(

July 22nd, 2009
9:22 pm

What in the hell was that tonight! Did anybody understand what the hell he said! I almost fell asleep 10 minutes into it. Damn he is almost as boring as Al Gore.

He didn’t say anything. I didn’t even watch the monstrosity and I know for a fact that all he did was read from a script, provided to him by the same socialist policy wonks that fed al-Gore his BS.

If you’ve seen one little marxist, you’ve seen them all.

ew

Raider

July 22nd, 2009
9:23 pm

Jt, I stand corrected , Thank you, now we all know. You are 100% right! W-A-T-E-R-L-O-O!

TnGelding

July 22nd, 2009
9:25 pm

Why does Obama think the “middle class” (I would prefer middle income) is struggling financially? I would think the ones that are working are doing quite well in this era of low taxes and low prices.

The mandate on business to provide health insurance is a non starter with me. We need to get that cost off of its back.

TnGelding

July 22nd, 2009
9:27 pm

I Report You Whine

July 22nd, 2009
9:22 pm

Yes, policy is boring, especially for those with a short attention span and misconceptions.

Raider

July 22nd, 2009
9:29 pm

And if he thinks he is going to pay for this with millionaires money by taxing them, he is wrong. I know a couple and their money is in loopholes and overseas, and they hardly pay for taxes as it is. – I wish I was one of them.

Paul

July 22nd, 2009
9:30 pm

getalife

I sure hope so. Some Predator pilot in California’s never going to have to buy a drink at the club again!

Pleasant evening, all -

DoggoneGA

July 22nd, 2009
9:31 pm

“The mandate on business to provide health insurance is a non starter with me. We need to get that cost off of its back”

Not going to happen this time around. It would be too easy to characterize that big a change as “forcing you to change your insurance plans.”

electrician

July 22nd, 2009
9:31 pm

Doggone at 9:17 that is my point.our commander in chief when asked by Rick Warren”when does life begin?’responded with”that’s above my pay grade”. fact is that people do deny that,it makes them more comfortable.

jt

July 22nd, 2009
9:32 pm

Paul-

I never called you a metrosexual, and besides, there is nothing wrong with being one.

This is for you-

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gu1q17rUkVU

DoggoneGA

July 22nd, 2009
9:38 pm

“our commander in chief when asked by Rick Warren”when does life begin?’responded with”that’s above my pay grade”. fact is that people do deny that,it makes them more comfortable”

He wasn’t denying it. The question “when does life begin” is code for “when is a foetus a human being” He answered the hidden question…that deciding humanity is above his pay grade. I got it the first time I heard it.

It is, and is meant to be, a “gotcha” question. At that point in the campaign there was no need for him to give an involved answer, so he didn’t.

Whenever a discussion of abortion comes up, I keep waiting and waiting and waiting for abortion foes to tell us how they would END abortions. I’ve never seen an answer. So I’m still waiting.

Swami Dave

July 22nd, 2009
9:39 pm

Chris:

“MYTH: EVERYONE will be forced to go on government health care.
(Alleged Liberal) REALITY: Everyone who is on an employer program or is happy with their current program will stay there….Bottom line is that its OPTIONAL if you already have insurance.”

–ACTUAL REALITY: Everyone -will- eventually be forced onto government health care because employers (not employees) will make the decision of which program they offer [-therefore- those employees will have the exact same choice they have today; that offered by their employer]. Also, by introducing a competitive pressure in the market (the government competing against private insurers) under which the government has no motive for profit or quality and is financed by the taxpayer (and the very companies against which they are competing) confiscated earnings, private insurers will undoubtedly leave the market further diminishing choice.

Ergo, liberal alleged “reality” is in fact either a) uninformed and ignorant parroting of lies and spin from proponents of this plan or b) willing accomplice in perpetuating this lie.

“MYTH: Congress has exempted itself from this plan.
(Alleged Liberal) REALITY: Since this is a choice based plan, no one is forced into it unless they need it. …Same choice confronting congress. Again, its OPTIONAL for those who already have insurance.”

–ACTUAL REALITY: Members of Congress (many of whom are ballyhooing the gradiosity of this plan – that few if any understand or have even read) will continue with their great health care while condemning others to lesser standard care. In the process, the quality of care for many who today have coverage will decrease (as they are forced onto the government option) while at the same time costs to those same Americans will rise. Effectively, they would get less, pay more, and have noone to blame but the collectivists shilling this destined to fail plan. As if historically proven, those responsible for this debacle will deny any responsiblity for the disaster and simply blame achievers and the successful for not “giving enough” to “properly fund” their altruistic plan.

“MYTH: The government plan will suck.
(Alleged Liberal) REALITY: It may, truthfully we don’t know that yet. Bottom line is that we need to bring in those 50 million Americans who have no insurance and those additional millions of Americans who have insurance but who have chronic or pre-existing conditions exempted under their current health care insurance plans.”

–ACTUAL REALITY: The quality of care for everyone who current has coverage will drop and the costs that they pay for it will increase. Effectively, instead of resolving the problems within the system, we will simply increase costs, increase confiscations to pay them, and ration the available resources further taxing the system and impeding care for all.

“So what about OPTIONAL do some people not understand. I hope Obama clears this up.”

–What part of there is no such thing as “OPTIONAL” when the actions you are taking will most certainly -limit- options? There is nothing that PrezBO or any of his other PrezBOt shills can do to “clear up” the REALITY that taking actions such as he plans will make health care worse for ALL Americans while further driving costs beyond sustainable levels. Sadly, the President knows this, but since his goal is the acquisition of power (not health care coverage for Americans), he does not care.

-SD

Hillbilly Deluxe

July 22nd, 2009
9:40 pm

After having watched the press conference I don’t understand anymore than I did before. I still don’t know how it’s going to work.

Here’s what I see happening. We’ll have some kind of public option while keeping employer provided insurance like many have now. Won’t take long until employers will figure out how to dump people into the public option plan just like they moved people from defined benefit pensions into 401k’s. Then insurance companies will figure out if they can’t deny you for a pre-existing condition, they can make it too expensive for you to afford. They can cherry pick the low risk groups even more than they do now. So the majority of people will be shifted into the public option plan. It’ll evolve into a single payer plan but with another name of course. Why not just cut to the chase and get on with it?

TnGelding

July 22nd, 2009
9:43 pm

Raider

July 22nd, 2009
9:29 pm

The couple would probably come out better in the long run by paying their taxes. And they’d probably sleep better, too.

TW

July 22nd, 2009
9:48 pm

DoggoneGA – they never will suggest how to end abortions. The anti-choice movement isn’t so much about ending abortions as it is participating in the rightwing morality that involves no sacrifice at all…scream at the woman who gets an abortion, degrade the homosexual, badmouth the muslim, etc etc.

But when it comes to coughing up real coin to help with poverty here in the US, or with those who don’t have healthcare – they are nowhere.

That’s the nice thing about rightwing morality, why it draw tools like rush and bill – all it takes is the extention of a judgemental finger to make you a part of the gang.

RW-(the original)

July 22nd, 2009
9:48 pm

It’ll evolve into a single payer plan but with another name of course. Why not just cut to the chase and get on with it?

Hillbilly Deluxe,

That brings to mind the horrible sentiment that if rape is inevitable then the woman should relax and enjoy it. Hopefully you didn’t mean it like it reads. We need to fight this now so we don’t ever get to the end of the path that you accurately mapped.

Bud Wiser

July 22nd, 2009
9:49 pm

Do your own homework Salzmann, or are you just another lazy school dropout?

@@

July 22nd, 2009
9:51 pm

He was laid bare on the rationing question.

He still spends too much capital of his “blamestorming”.

electrician

July 22nd, 2009
9:52 pm

doggone.that wasn’t code,its the same thing. I Dont agree with abortion,its against my personal beliefs,bt I can accept that it is a very personal thing for someone to decide,I can also accept that it is legal and probably always will be,I’m not` campaigning for the overthrow of roe v wade.as far as ending abortions,I don’t have an answer,I did however facilitate a private adoption between people known to me but not each other,but that was only one.maybe `that’s the best answer,do what you can to help.

mike

July 22nd, 2009
9:52 pm

DoggoneGA –

“Whenever a discussion of abortion comes up, I keep waiting and waiting and waiting for abortion foes to tell us how they would END abortions.”

And I assume that anyone who is opposed to murder must tell us how they would END murders. And people who are opposed to rape must tell us how they would END rapes. And people who are against robbery must tell us how they would END robberies.

Abortion opponents do so because they believe that abortion is the murder of an innocent life. Demanding that these people must tell you how they would avoid what they perceive to be an injustice in order to espouse their own beliefs about said injustice is just stupid rhetoric.

Paul

July 22nd, 2009
9:53 pm

jt

Okay, and, I know!

The song that started it all. Eurovision. 1974.

Oh, do I know… went to a pool party. Slipped an ABBA cd All the guys moved away, the ladies… gathered around…

getalife – there’s a lesson there!

Time to shut this down and have that drink for Bosch.

mike

July 22nd, 2009
9:59 pm

TW –

“The anti-choice movement isn’t so much about ending abortions as it is participating in the rightwing morality that involves no sacrifice at all…scream at the woman who gets an abortion, degrade the homosexual, badmouth the muslim, etc etc.”

Yeah, the “anti-choice” movement should be tolerant like pro-abortion folks like yourself and dismiss their arguments and demonize them.

I oppose abortion for purely secular reasons. I could not care less about your morals. I have never screamed at a woman. I live in one of the gayest nieghborhoods in Atlanta. I have no issue with Muslims at all.

Like many of the “tolerant” and “intellectual” liberals on this board, you demonstrate your utter lack of tolerance and inability to make a logical argument and instead rely on broad stereotypes and ad-hominem attacks.

electrician

July 22nd, 2009
10:03 pm

doggone one more thing,I have a grand child who was unplanned and borne to young and totally unprepared parents,whom I encouraged not to have an abortion..he lives with me, beliefs incur responsibility.

Trust me

July 22nd, 2009
10:04 pm

Hillbilly,

Those in favor of the current system proclaim it to be the best, better than anything. If that is the case, then they should be able to hold their own against a public option. The reality is that the current system allows for the insurance companies to squeeze folks at both ends — the doctor and the patient and everyone else — and then skim off millions and millions to line their pockets. They don’t want to lose out on that easy money and that is why they are scared of the public option.

DoggoneGA

July 22nd, 2009
10:07 pm

“Abortion opponents do so because they believe that abortion is the murder of an innocent life. Demanding that these people must tell you how they would avoid what they perceive to be an injustice in order to espouse their own beliefs about said injustice is just stupid rhetoric”

No it isn’t. Abortion foes right now are in exactly where the “anarchists” of 100 or so years ago were: they know what they don’t want, but what they don’t know is what they DO want. If you are against abortion, then it’s nothing but words if you don’t have anything to put in it’s place. What is YOUR alternative to abortion. Or, if you think it’s murder, then whom will you penalize and with what penalty?

DoggoneGA

July 22nd, 2009
10:10 pm

“I have a grand child who was unplanned and borne to young and totally unprepared parents,whom I encouraged not to have an abortion..he lives with me, beliefs incur responsibility”

Good for you, but what’s the point? Are you going to be responsibile for EVERY child born to a woman who doesn’t want that child, but whom you would – either personally or through laws – “encourage” not to have an abortion? Because if you, either directly or indirectly, take away the woman’s choice…then make no mistake, you are, or are participating in, the responsibility for that child’s life and well-being.

mike

July 22nd, 2009
10:15 pm

DoggoneGA –

“Abortion foes right now are in exactly where the “anarchists” of 100 or so years ago were: they know what they don’t want, but what they don’t know is what they DO want.”

Huh? Abortion foes want abortion to be illegal. What is so confusing to you about that?

“If you are against abortion, then it’s nothing but words if you don’t have anything to put in it’s place”

Huh? So you can’t be opposed to an injustice unless you have something to put in its place? That doesn’t even make sense. What has been “put in the place” of homicide or rape?

” What is YOUR alternative to abortion.”

I don’t have one. I don’t have an alternative to murder or rape either.

“Or, if you think it’s murder, then whom will you penalize and with what penalty?”

The same people who would be penalized for the murder of a newborn child with the same penalties.

mike

July 22nd, 2009
10:17 pm

DoggoneGA –

The cornerstone of the anti-abortion crowd is that abortion is the murder of innocent life.

How about refuting that argument instead of telling us that these folks have to tell you how to prevent abortion or that they have to take care of unwanted babies?

TW

July 22nd, 2009
10:20 pm

mike – how about all those half-babies you decorate your magazines with? Yup, I’m calling the cops

Hillbilly Deluxe

July 22nd, 2009
10:21 pm

Trust me,

Unfortunately I’ve been dealing with the health care system almost daily for several months. My dealings with the medical end have been great. 99% dedicated professionals who want to help people. The business end sucks, just to be plain about. I constantly hear horror stories from other patients. The stories I hear from the medical people aren’t any better. What we have now isn’t working and I just want something that works.

Ask a doctor sometime what percentage of office worker man-hours are spent haggling with insurance companies.

electrician

July 22nd, 2009
10:21 pm

doggone..I ENCOURAGED them ..it was still thier choice, and I took responsibility when it went bad. I told you I am not against roe V wade..so when it comes to me WHAT IS YOUR POINT? PLEASE ENLIGHTE ALL OF US

TGT

July 22nd, 2009
10:21 pm

TW said: “But when it comes to coughing up real coin to help with poverty here in the US, or with those who don’t have healthcare – they are nowhere.”

When it comes to social involvement, recent George Barna research (http://www.barna.org) showed a significant difference between what he describes as “active-faith” Americans, [the vast majority of whom are Christians] who tend to be more conservative in their politics, and “no-faith” Americans, who tend to be more liberal. Barna reports that, “One of the most significant differences between active-faith and no-faith Americans is the cultural disengagement and sense of independence exhibited by [no-faith Americans] in many areas of life. They are less likely than active-faith Americans to be registered to vote (78% versus 89%), to volunteer to help a non-church-related non-profit (20% versus 30%), to describe themselves as ‘active in the community’ (41% versus 68%), and to personally help or serve a homeless or poor person (41% versus 61%).”

There is also a significant difference between active-faith Americans and no-faith Americans when it comes to the amount of money donated to charitable causes. On this, Barna notes that, “The typical no-faith American donated just $200 in 2006, which is over seven times less than the amount contributed by the prototypical active-faith adult ($1500).” Furthermore, as of 2005, according to the Christian Science Monitor, of the top 10 U.S. charities that are categorized as social services or relief/development, nine are Christian charities.

When it comes to domestic charity, total U.S. giving in 2006 was just over $295 billion according to The Giving USA Foundation. Of this amount, 83.4% was given by individuals, which far outpaces the giving by U.S. corporations, whose total giving came in at 4.3%. [Giving by foundations made up the other 12.3%.] According to Generous Giving Inc., “religious observers, which are those who attend weekly services [again, the vast majority are Christian], while only about 38% of all Americans, donate two-thirds of all charitable dollars in the United States.”

Looks like us “right wingers” are generally the ones putting their money and their actions where their mouths are. Liberals (as pointed out recently by Nicholas Kristof himself) are generally “personally stingy.” Notice he says “personally”– liberals are fabulously generous when it comes to OTHER PEOPLES money!

mike

July 22nd, 2009
10:24 pm

TW –

“how about all those half-babies you decorate your magazines with?”

More stereotypes that have nothing to do with me? What else would I expect from a “tolerant” and “intellectual” liberal? A reasoned response? LOL

“Yup, I’m calling the cops”

This drivel doesn’t even make sense. Is it supposed to be some kind of “zinger” to stand in place of a logical argument?

DoggoneGA

July 22nd, 2009
10:24 pm

“Huh? So you can’t be opposed to an injustice unless you have something to put in its place? That doesn’t even make sense. What has been “put in the place” of homicide or rape?”

Homicide, in particular, and rape usually…do not result in a living, breathing human being that must be cared for and raised. What is YOUR plan for dealing with those lives?

“Huh? Abortion foes want abortion to be illegal. What is so confusing to you about that?”

It isn’t confusing…but who will YOU penalize, and what penalty will you assess?

“I don’t have one. I don’t have an alternative to murder or rape either”

But you HAVE to have an alternative to abortion. As I stated above, no abortions means living human being to deal with.

“The same people who would be penalized for the murder of a newborn child with the same penalties”

The doctor, the woman, the father? All of them, and with what penalty? Murder can, and does, involve the death penalty. Would you still be “pro life” if you were willing to kill those involved?

DoggoneGA

July 22nd, 2009
10:27 pm

“How about refuting that argument instead of telling us that these folks have to tell you how to prevent abortion or that they have to take care of unwanted babies?”

You can’t do one without the other. If they want abortions made illegal…then there has to be some alternative for dealing with the resulting child. It has to be nurtured and raised. Who will do that? Who will pay for it? I asked someone else: if you think it’s murder, will you invoke the deaths of those involved as a penalty?

DoggoneGA

July 22nd, 2009
10:28 pm

“WHAT IS YOUR POINT? PLEASE ENLIGHTE ALL OF US”

My point? That it is the woman’s decision, and her doctor’s decision…and NO ONE ELSES.

TW

July 22nd, 2009
10:28 pm

TGT – Barna is an Evangelical Christian.

Some free advice for you – don’t ask the guy at the Chevy dealer if it would be a good idea to buy a Chevy.

electrician

July 22nd, 2009
10:29 pm

DOGGONE… enjoyed the exchange,gotta go now,see you on another topic

@@

July 22nd, 2009
10:30 pm

Just so you know. Every year, more than one million couples want to adopt a baby. Yet, there are only about 50,000 babies placed for adoption each year (source: National Council for Adoption).

400,000 teenage girls opt for abortion each year.

mike

July 22nd, 2009
10:33 pm

Doggone –

“You can’t do one without the other. If they want abortions made illegal…then there has to be some alternative for dealing with the resulting child. t has to be nurtured and raised. Who will do that? Who will pay for it?”

Hmm. So does that apply to parents who feel like dumping their newborn baby in a dumpster? I imagine that you would judge that to be a crime. If so, what is your alternative for dealing with the surviving child?

“I asked someone else: if you think it’s murder, will you invoke the deaths of those involved as a penalty?”

The penalty should be commensurate with a state’s homicide penalty.

How about actually responding to my question for once, as I continue to do with you:

Refute the argument that abortion is the murder of a living being.

mike

July 22nd, 2009
10:38 pm

TW –

“Barna is an Evangelical Christian. Some free advice for you – don’t ask the guy at the Chevy dealer if it would be a good idea to buy a Chevy.”

Well Arthur Brooks, author of “Who Really Cares”, who was cited by uber-liberal Nic Kristof, is Louis A. Bantle Professor of Business and Government Policy at Syracuse University’s Maxwell School of Citizenship and Public Affairs and Whitman School of Management.

As Kristof states:

“This holiday season is a time to examine who’s been naughty and who’s been nice, but I’m unhappy with my findings. The problem is this: We liberals are personally stingy.

Liberals show tremendous compassion in pushing for generous government spending to help the neediest people at home and abroad. Yet when it comes to individual contributions to charitable causes, liberals are cheapskates.

Arthur Brooks, the author of a book on donors to charity, “Who Really Cares,” cites data that households headed by conservatives give 30 percent more to charity than households headed by liberals. A study by Google found an even greater disproportion: average annual contributions reported by conservatives were almost double those of liberals.

Other research has reached similar conclusions. The “generosity index” from the Catalogue for Philanthropy typically finds that red states are the most likely to give to nonprofits, while Northeastern states are least likely to do so.

The upshot is that Democrats, who speak passionately about the hungry and homeless, personally fork over less money to charity than Republicans — the ones who try to cut health insurance for children.”

Sorry to let facts get in the way of your stereotypes.

TGT

July 22nd, 2009
10:40 pm

TW: Barna’s an evangelical—SO?! This disqualifies him from good research? How many researchers/scientists etc. that comment/research social issues are secular humanists? Good research speaks for itself and can be evidenced by the methodology, which is practically always reported. Of course there is the occasional biased study/poll such as the recent New York Times poll on health care.

Trust me

July 22nd, 2009
10:46 pm

400,000 teenage girls opt for abortion each year.

Well, we do already have puppy mills.

Trust me

July 22nd, 2009
10:48 pm

Hillbilly,

I feel your pain. We have been through the grief with the insurance companies and I have many friends who have also. There have been no praises of the insurance companies for doing anything for anyone other than themselves. I want change and I know many others that do as well. The current system is crap.

Swami Dave

July 22nd, 2009
10:58 pm

TGT / Mike:

Good job guys making your point. As laughable as it is, the “liberal” shill questioning the veracity of your point and source because “he was a Christian” is silly since it is a LIBERAL (with no sources or basis except “uh-uh”).

The reality is that the biggest portion of compassion shown by most liberals is what they “support” so long as it is paid with other people’s confiscated earnings / wealth. Lucky for them, their position as the self-appointed arbiters of how other people’s money should be spent is apparently their “contribution” to society.

-SD

TnGelding

July 22nd, 2009
11:04 pm

Swami Dave

July 22nd, 2009
10:58 pm

I haven’t been following the discussion that closely, but do those contribution figures include donations to churches, i.e, tithes?

I think your second paragraph is a little over-broad. Many factors come into play when it comes to giving to charities. Frankly, I’m fed up with them. I think they’d take your last dime and not feel any shame.

Trust me

July 22nd, 2009
11:09 pm

The reality is that the biggest portion of compassion shown by most liberals is what they “support” so long as it is paid with other people’s confiscated earnings / wealth. Lucky for them, their position as the self-appointed arbiters of how other people’s money should be spent is apparently their “contribution” to society.

What reality are you referring to? Any facts, for example, to support your hyperbole would be greatly appreciated and it would go a long way toward establishing your credibility as well.

TnGelding

July 22nd, 2009
11:20 pm

The deductibles and co-pays for Medicare are considerable.

In for a rude awakening:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jdaa-PTrs_k

I like the idea, tho.

Greg Mendel

July 22nd, 2009
11:22 pm

“You said “Obama has put forward facts, figures and details”, is that why the other day while talking on the phone to a blogger he couldn’t answer what was on page 16 of this health care bill.” — raider

What’s on page 16 of your drivers license, numb nutz? (No, don’t look. Trick question.)

Swami Dave

July 22nd, 2009
11:23 pm

Tn:

I am sure that the figures include tithes. Many churches sponsor their own outreaches and charitable organizations (or pool their resources with other communities of faith to do so) with those funds. Personally, I select which charities (both through my church and outside it) that I materially participate.

Trust Me:

The -reality- that collectivists (by their statements and actions) apparently think they know best how other people’s money (via taxation and increases in such) should be spent. They also assume the authority to decide how much “is enough” for others and, therefore, how much can be “fairly” confiscated from one group to redistribute or provide services for another group.

The point being that -if- Liberals think that their taxes are too low and more money should be transferred to other specific groups then -you- are free to give them as much of -your- money as you see fit. However, -you- have no right or authority to decide how -my- earnings or wealth should be spent or distributed.

-SD

Swami Dave

July 22nd, 2009
11:30 pm

Greg:

There is no page 16 on my driver’s license, numb-nutz!

However, to the second level stupidity of your “point”, when I got my driver’s license – I took the time to read what was on it. Likewise, I took the time to read the material preparing for my written test, practice driving in preparation for the practical test, and read the materials that I was signing to obtain my license.

So yes, I took the time to read documents and do due diligence relative to something that largely affected only me (my driver’s license). However, PrezBO and most of the PrezBOt shills waxing eloquent about legislation that will affect ALL Americans that they have NOT taken the time to read or understand would be unacceptable to any rational, thinking observer.

-SD

G

July 22nd, 2009
11:41 pm

@ Road Scholar
“What is the best healthcare system presently in the US? Stumped? It’s the VA!!!!!! I guess they don’t like socialized medcine, even for our troops, esp if they are vets themselves?”

Now, before I ask you to back that up with any facts or figures I’m going to ask you a question. Is this the same VA that exposed tens of thousands to possibly HIV infected equipment? The same VA that, after texting, several people have tested positive to HIV after a VA hospital visit? Or is this the VA that botched radiation treatments on more than a dozen people?
Dear God. If this is the best in our country I shudder to think of how I’ve made it these many years.

Trust me

July 22nd, 2009
11:45 pm

The -reality- that collectivists (by their statements and actions) apparently think they know best how other people’s money (via taxation and increases in such) should be spent. They also assume the authority to decide how much “is enough” for others and, therefore, how much can be “fairly” confiscated from one group to redistribute or provide services for another group.

So, these collectivists that you refer to must also include conservatives as well as liberals and all other parties in government since they all seem to think that their own ideas on how to spend our money are the best ideas. The same also applies to your “authority” argument given that Republicans decided to borrow money from other countries to do things like fund tax cuts for select people and fight wars, etc.

The point being that -if- Liberals think that their taxes are too low and more money should be transferred to other specific groups then -you- are free to give them as much of -your- money as you see fit. However, -you- have no right or authority to decide how -my- earnings or wealth should be spent or distributed.

Again, the same thing applies with the word “liberal” replaced with any other word. Conservatives, for example, have no more authority to go out and borrow money to pay for capital gains tax cuts or wars or prescription drug plans or farm bills, etc., than liberals.

Trust me

July 22nd, 2009
11:53 pm

We could start by giving all tax payers access to the same group policies that our tax dollars use to provide coverage to the politicians. Why do we have to pay for their coverage and yet not have access to the same coverage. Further, what is wrong with opening up access to medicare and medicaid to everyone. Also, access does not translate into free for all as some people seem to think.

S

July 23rd, 2009
5:43 am

U.S. of America we have a problem. The problem is Health Insurance Companies. They are NOT warm and fuzzy creatures. They giveth and they can take away. They have no competition therefore they can agree to cover you or not it is up to them. What Obama wants to do, I believe, is make sure these insurance companies have competition so they will see the light. If you can’t compete with the Government system, then you won’t be in business long. Everyone knows this in business. Competition keeps costs down. A Health Insurance Company that can have a profit of over 21 BILLION, well, that money had to come from somewhere and most likely from not covering people that it is suppose to be covering. We need to repair this major problem in this Country and now is the time, not at the end of the year, NOW.

AmVet

July 23rd, 2009
6:32 am

“Refute the argument that abortion is the murder of a living being.”

Murder is defined as “illegal killing with malice aforethought.” Abortion fails this definition for two reasons. First, abortion is NOT illegal, and second, there is no evidence to suggest that expecting mothers feel malice towards their own flesh and blood.

Much as you conned frequently hate it, this is a nation of laws.

And the law is straight forward, abortion is NOT murder.

Now, your penchant for disregarding the rules of grammar, syntax and semantics and mangling your mother tongue is something you’ll need much more remedial work than can be accomplished here…

AmVet

July 23rd, 2009
6:40 am

G, I don’t have time to tell you of my experiences with the VA. On a scale of ten it is a ten and blows away ANYTHING I have ever heard of in the private sector.

Since I presume you have never spent one moment of your entire life in any capacity – patient, staff or volunteer – in ANY VA facility – your input is useless.

Thank you…

Doggone/GA

July 23rd, 2009
6:51 am

“Refute the argument that abortion is the murder of a living being”

Murder is the taking of the life of another HUMAN being. A foetus still totally dependent on the woman’s body is not yet a human being. Yes, it is living…but if the woman ceases to live, so does the foetus. It is not a separate being apart from the woman, it is a symbiote in her body and as such is part of HER. It is HER body, and she has control of it.

It is not “murder” because the foetus is not, yet, a complete and separate human from the woman.

Doggone/GA

July 23rd, 2009
6:52 am

“Every year, more than one million couples want to adopt a baby. Yet, there are only about 50,000 babies placed for adoption”

And how many older children are there in foster care just begging for someone to adopt THEM?

I Report :-) You Whine :-(

July 23rd, 2009
6:56 am

On a scale of ten it is a ten and blows away ANYTHING I have ever heard of in the private sector.

I spent 3 weeks in the Presidio, laid up out cold in a hospital bed, recovering from pneumonia that the VA doctors misdiagnosed and that almost killed me.

No kidding, I had to lay on the chairs in the ER, lapsing in and out of consciousness before they admitted me.

It was free, though, and I suspect that is why AmVet thinks that it rocks.

TnGelding

July 23rd, 2009
6:57 am

Swami Dave

July 22nd, 2009
11:23 pm

Many churches do a lot of god work. The need is overwhelming.

TnGelding

July 23rd, 2009
7:03 am

Swami Dave

July 22nd, 2009
11:23 pm

Good idea, but I don’t think most would take advantage of it and many couldn’t afford to. I’d like to see the requirements for Medicaid eased a little, but at the same time crack down on fraud and abuse. I’ve never met anyone that was on it that wasn’t taking a handful of prescription drugs.

TnGelding

July 23rd, 2009
7:04 am

Trust me

July 22nd, 2009
11:53 pm

Correction, my 7:03 should have been addressed to you.

Sorry, Swami Dave.

I Report :-) You Whine :-(

July 23rd, 2009
7:06 am

America is now being pushed headlong into enacting a massive federal government-run health care program. The rush, of course, is the Congressional Democrats’ chosen strategy prompted by the Obama Administration’s hunger for a big victory. This strategy may be politically expedient, but it is extremely irresponsible, unwise, and unfair to the American people. Government-monopolized health service flatly contradicts both the moral principles of free market democracy and the excellence of health care that still draws patients from socialist utopias to the capitalist United States for medical treatment. This untested experiment with our national health demands no less than responsible public debate and prudent political judgment. Right now America is getting neither.-AmSpec

And this leads you to ask, do the democrats care more about “improving” health care or increasing their power through big government?

TnGelding

July 23rd, 2009
7:08 am

S

July 23rd, 2009
5:43 am

With single payer we could eliminate the profit and marketing costs, and reduce the administrative costs. We get direct mail and telemarketing solicitations almost every day.

Red Foreman

July 23rd, 2009
7:10 am

Hope and Change…HAHAHAHAHA!!!

TnGelding

July 23rd, 2009
7:11 am

Swami Dave

July 22nd, 2009
11:23 pm

And GOOD work, too!

Normal

July 23rd, 2009
7:11 am

Good morning, all…AmVet, My dealings with VA has also been superb,
and I have used them whenever I didn’t have any other insurance. My only gripe was having to travel to get where you had to be. I’m not sure if you have already said this, but the VA system would not be a bad model for the health plan to follow…

Trust me

July 23rd, 2009
7:11 am

I’m actually compelled to ask, “AmSpec! Are you kidding?”

TnGelding

July 23rd, 2009
7:16 am

I Report You Whine

July 23rd, 2009
7:06 am

Good points, but as to your question, I’d say health care. Didn’t a Democrat end the era of big government, only to see it resurrected in the next administration?

The way Obama talked last night, and I admit I couldn’t watch it all either, he might veto anything that comes out of Congress, if anything does. I’d bet right now nothing will.

TnGelding

July 23rd, 2009
7:18 am

Red Foreman

July 23rd, 2009
7:10 am

Maybe we should hope there is no change?

I don’t think there will be unless it is truly an improvement.

TnGelding

July 23rd, 2009
7:22 am

Trust me

July 23rd, 2009
7:11 am

I don’t think the intent is to have government monopolize health service, but I gave them the benefit of a doubt. It’s nearly 50% now tho.

Trust me

July 23rd, 2009
7:29 am

…A government plan that’s 40 percent cheaper, as Bachmann noted, would cost around $286 per month — a $190 discount. The government plan, though, wouldn’t exclude us for preexisting conditions. It wouldn’t randomly deny us coverage. It wouldn’t conspire to cancel our coverage as soon as we got sick. It wouldn’t jack up our premium for no reason. And we could take it with us wherever we go…

Darn those government health plans. They’ll be the death of us all.

DB, Gwinnettian

July 23rd, 2009
7:31 am

The question “when does life begin”

Oh, but Doggone, it was much worse than that. The question was “When does a BABY get human rights?” It was deliberately phrased to a) give his sick followers a reason to hate Obama, and b) hand McCain an applause line.

Of course they hate his “pay grade” answer. They’d hate anything he said in reply that wasn’t “Oh Massuh Rick, you right, I done sinned for supporting women’s rights and believing that their uteri aren’t property of the state!”

DB, Gwinnettian

July 23rd, 2009
7:36 am

recovering from pneumonia that the VA doctors misdiagnosed and that almost killed me.

Funny, my private, for-profit insurance-network doc misdiagnosed me one time. So obviously private for-profit insurance docs totally suck too. Guess we should just self-medicate and hope for the best.

Doggone/GA

July 23rd, 2009
7:48 am

“Of course they hate his “pay grade” answer. They’d hate anything he said in reply that wasn’t”

No doubt, and they are so dishonest when they tie abortion to murder…they simply CANNOT SEE that what they are REALLY saying is: It’s Ok for abortions to occur, as long as we get to punish those involved. Which is why they never have any sort of coherent alternative to abortion. They aren’t really worried about forcing a woman to carry her pregnancy to term, because if they DID to that…they wouldn’t get to “punish” her for HAVING an abortion.

Mrs. Godzilla

July 23rd, 2009
8:01 am

RB

I gave a great deal of thought to your accusation that I “celebrated”
the deaths of American Servicemen and women. My conclusion remains the same. You are wrong.

I offer this challenge.

If you can find anything I posted that celebrates the death of American soldiers and provide the link…..I will permanently leave this blog.

If you cannot you will either leave or offer an apology for your cruel remark.

jt

July 23rd, 2009
8:07 am

If you all would eat plenty of vegetables, buy your meat locally, and not be afraid of beer and wine in moderation, then ya’ll wouldn’t need insurance so much.

Oh yeah, and plenty of exercise.

DB, Gwinnettian

July 23rd, 2009
8:09 am

they simply CANNOT SEE that what they are REALLY saying is: It’s Ok for abortions to occur, as long as we get to punish those involved.

Interesting. Not sure I agree, though; in practice, most who claim to be vehemently opposed to legal abortion seem clueless when it comes to what sort of punishment should be doled out. I get a lot of Ralph Kramdenesque “hammita hammita”s when I ask point blank.

Consider too that a rather conservative state (S. Dakota) four years ago rejected a referendum that would’ve criminalized elective abortions outright. It’s like most folks want to be able to say they’ll consider abortion to be “murder” without actually treating it as such in the criminal code.

Because in their heart of hearts they know that aborting an 8-week-old embryo (about the median stage of development for an elective termination), while a regrettable circumstance, isn’t equal to child murder.

DB, Gwinnettian

July 23rd, 2009
8:10 am

If you all would eat plenty of vegetables, buy your meat locally, and not be afraid of beer and wine in moderation, then ya’ll wouldn’t need insurance so much.

Oh yeah, and plenty of exercise.

That’s mostly correct (I doubt the alcohol in moderation business is a good idea for recovering alcoholics, though). A comprehensive healthcare plan would encourage such behavior.

DB, Gwinnettian

July 23rd, 2009
8:13 am

Oh, one other thought, Doggone–certainly the anti-choice folk want to punish women for having sex. No doubt in my mind about that; this is mostly about imposing a double standard and maintaining a paternalistic status quo.

But it’s not about imposing actual criminal penalties on women. They’d rather bring back the public shame and induce the self-loathing among unwed pregnant women that they believe to have been the universal case back-in-the-day. That’s my point.

Californication

July 23rd, 2009
8:14 am

It turns out that 253.4 million Americans — or a whopping 83% of the country — have health insurance, whether it’s through private insurers, employer-based coverage, a government program or Medicaid/Medicare. The majority, 202 million of the 253.4 million, pay for private insurance.

And as a number of clever skeptics have recently pointed out, breaking down the 45 million number reveals that far fewer folks are actually uninsured. Nearly 10 million of those 45 million aren’t even American citizens, and nearly 17 million of them can easily afford insurance, but choose not to get it (these folks will be taxed under Obamacare for opting out.) When the numbers are crunched, it turns out that only 11 million legal American citizens who would like health insurance don’t have it, and even that figure is likely high. If we take it at 11 million, that’s less than 4% of the country.

RB from Gwinnett

July 23rd, 2009
8:26 am

G, as I said before, I will not waste my time looking for specific blog comments from 1-2 years ago. You have already acknowledged posting the KIA numbers. The difference here is why you posted them. I believe you posted them because their actual numbers serve your political purpose and as I said at the time, when increasing numbers of our soldiers deaths benefit your cause, you really need to consider whose side you’re on.

You can claim any reason you want to for posting the KIA numbers, G. I believe they were posted to embarrass our president and to further your left leaning agenda. I still think thats a sick thing to do with this nations people at war and I will not apologize for it. You can go away if you want to, but I will continue to post my beliefs on here and if that includes questioning your integrity over issues such as this, that’s too bad. If your feelings are hurt, perhaps you should view not just your motives for posting the numbers, G, but the consequences of posting them. Who benefits from it? Unintended consequences are every bit as damaging as intended ones.

ken

July 23rd, 2009
8:32 am

Doggone/GA, the alternative to abortion is adoption. There used to be a lot of adopted children many years ago. Abortion is the easy way out. Too many lazy people.

Swami Dave

July 23rd, 2009
8:37 am

Trust Me @ 11:45:

You can argue spending and costs for wars and the like if you choose. That is a legitimate discussion about the role and actions of our government. However, there is no such thing as “paying for a tax cut”. The money returned in tax cuts belongs to those who earned it; or it should be – highlighting another fallacy of the PrezBO plans giving tax cuts to those many of whom already pay no income taxes. If allowing Americans to keep more of what they earn limits the ability of government to fund some of the pet redistributionist transfer payments and social programs (like socialized health care), then that is simply an opportunity for those who are beneficiaries of those payments and programs to do for themselves the things for which they have been depending on government.

To your 11:53, I have no problem whatsoever opening access to the insurance plans that members of Congress currently participate to everyone. So long as the government and our tax dollars are not used to pay the premiums in another redistributionist transfer scheme, opening access to more plan options is a good thing. Interestingly, I notice that members of Congress (including some of the very Democrats shilling this monstrosity – soon to be debacle) are excluding themselves from the legislated (aka: forced) obligations to participate in the government plan. Apparently, increasing costs (to be further foisted upon America’s taxpayers as things that should be personal responsiblity are declared “societal obligations”) and decreased quality are something that should be mandated upon the “little people” (aka: those not within the hallowed groups of bureaucratic wonks and collectivist know-it-alls who enjoy the self-appointed position to know better how to lead our lives than do we).

Sorry, no dice.

-SD

Trust me

July 23rd, 2009
8:38 am

Of course, if you take the 45 million and divide by 298.4 million total, that would be 15% instead of 4% without health insurance and I have not even looked closely at these obviously biased (in favor of the “do nothing party”) numbers to see how they were derived. And, we all know that when numbers hit double digits, like with unemployment, it’s starting to look really bad.

Trust me

July 23rd, 2009
8:47 am

However, there is no such thing as “paying for a tax cut”.

When you borrow money and then use that money to fund tax cuts to a portion of the tax payers, all taxpayers are then stuck with paying back the principal plus interest. Further, as I said before, your earlier arguments apply equally to all, not just so-called liberals. As for your claims regarding health care, its cost and who pays for what, I will be happy to discuss any facts that you care to present. Just provide links and I’ll look over them and we’ll go from there. I don’t care to debate hyperbole. By the way, sorry about your loss. I hope you find your dice.

Mrs. Godzilla

July 23rd, 2009
8:48 am

RB from Gwinnett

I guess I should be happy that at least you are back pedaling from “celebrate”.

I wouldn’t want your karma dude.

DB, Gwinnettian

July 23rd, 2009
8:55 am

Cali’s basing his numbers @ 8.14 on one (1) right-wing shill who belongs to something called “Americans for Prosperity” and has made a name for himself spreading disinformation.

I’d not trust those numbers as far as I could throw ManTeats Limbaugh.

Swami Dave

July 23rd, 2009
9:03 am

DB, Gwinnettian:

“That’s mostly correct … A comprehensive healthcare plan would encourage such behavior.”

That might be the most laughably asinine post in the near 400 within this thread! A “comprehensive healthcare plan” will do nothing to make people who gorge on junk food, smoke cigarettes, drink alcohol in excess, and fail to exercise follow better lifestyle habits. Having no plan should be one of the greatest motivating factors for individuals to practice some or all of these steps because it would be the best way that they could act in a preventative manner for themselves and their families.

However, -here- is what a “comprehensive health plan” will do for those in this group:

-It will probably pay for obesity prevention programs or dieticians consultancies or (probably) free food programs that the beneficiaries will either not show up for or not follow their advice or simply throw away as it goes bad in their refrigerator since they refuse to eat it.
-It will probably pay for smoking cessation and alcohol / substance abuse programs that beneficiaries will not attend and / or not follow.
-It will probably pay for gym memberships and -likely- exercise equipment purchases that will go unused since -if- these individuals wanted to exercise, most could walk outside their home and walk / run along any number of miles of sidewalks and trails.

In the end, this boondoggle will have wasted millions of taxpayer dollars on programs that the beneficiaries do not follow only to have them showing up at doctor’s offices (spending more taxpayer dollars) to get services and prescriptions (spending more taxpayer dollars) for the health problems that are a direct result of their own decisions and choices.

I have a beter solution.

How about instead of passing legislation that obligates our children and grandchildren to fund what will be a wasteful economic drain, we allow PrezBO and the liberals to go to work now “removing waste” and “consolidating services to decrease cost”. For every dollar that you save (defined as a dollar less spent this year than we spent on health care last year), you are free to redirect that dollar to fund whatever socialist, single-payer government solution that you choose. Since PrezBO and the PrezBOts promise that it will “not increase deficits” and they will “pay” for the reform entirely through things like “waste prevention” and “efficiency”, then I suggest they begin now and redirect all of their “savings” to fund their program in a pay-as-you-go.

My suspicion is that the liberal response will be “no” – evidencing that liberals know the spin and blather is nothing but lies and obfuscation.

-SD

RB's translator

July 23rd, 2009
9:07 am

“G, as I said before, I will not waste my time looking for specific blog comments from 1-2 years ago.”

Translation: I don’t really remember so I’ll spout *my* interpretation of what you said like it’s an actual quote.

Truthiness in action.

DB, Gwinnettian

July 23rd, 2009
9:19 am

blah blah blab blah … My suspicion is that the liberal response will be… blah freedom… liberty… manly man… pull up by my incredible barf-straps… tax cuts make ponies appear…

huh? SD, you still jabbering on?
Go blogwh0re somewhere else, you whiny old coot.

Swami Dave

July 23rd, 2009
9:24 am

Trust Me:

Actually, our government is borrowing the money to continue funding the transfer payments and programs that those confiscated earnings (taxes) were covering. The money does not belong to the beneficiaries of the payments and programs; it belongs to those who earned it. Any deficits are not a result of tax cuts; they are a result of the New Deal / Great Society wasteful spending that tries to justify taking earnings from one group to transfer to another as benefit (in exchange for votes).

I agree we need to address our deficits and we should do it by cutting the redistributionist schemes that do for beneficiaries what they can and should do for themselves.

-SD

TnGelding

July 23rd, 2009
9:59 am

Californication

July 23rd, 2009
8:14 am

Think that might be why sentiment has changed? We have something, altho many not fully satisfied, but scared of the unknown? Plus the legislation being considered is inadequate.

TnGelding

July 23rd, 2009
10:03 am

Swami Dave

July 23rd, 2009
9:03 am

Look for a blitz of public health announcements promoting healthy lifestyles, with or without the comprehensive plan.

Doggone/GA

July 23rd, 2009
12:12 pm

“Doggone/GA, the alternative to abortion is adoption”

Ok, so you WOULD force a woman to carry a pregnancy – which she does not want – to full term. In other words, YOU want control of HER body.

md

July 23rd, 2009
8:19 pm

“YOU want control of HER body.”

Good question considering its obvious she didn’t do a very good job of controlling it in the first place.

Take the easy way out of the delimma, just kill it.

N.J.

July 24th, 2009
1:35 pm

I love quotes like this:

“The money does not belong to the beneficiaries of the payments and programs; it belongs to those who earned it. Any deficits are not a result of tax cuts; they are a result of the New Deal / Great Society wasteful spending that tries to justify taking earnings from one group to transfer to another as benefit ”

Patently false conservo whining. NO matter how they slice it, they cannot get around the fact that tax cuts are invariably and ALWAYS followed by an economic meltdown or economic stagnation, because the basic assertions about what people will DO with their tax cuts has always sounded good, but is always false. Lower the top marginal tax rates and a business owner is going to suck money OUT of his business for personal use. The idea that if you give a person a tax cut on personal income, they will take that money and start a business is basically false. The tax cuts the middle class would get are never large enough for this and on those at the top end, the only way they avoid being taxed when the top rates are high is by LEAVING their money inside of the business, and using it in ways in which the rate of taxation becomes ZERO. So instead of taking 100,000 dollars out of a business and personal income and seeing it be taxed into 30,000, they leave it INSIDE the business and only take out what they need, and only to the point where they are taxed in the LOWER brackets. They still have a huge amount of wealth, its just in a form that cannot be used to buy a personal yacht. But by leaving that money INSIDE of a business, they retain 100 percent of its value as long as they use it in ways that create wealth not profit.

Lowering the top tax rates results in money being sucked out of a going concern where it then goes chasing after high yield investments which results in a speculative market. This has occurred as an immediate response to every INCOME tax cut since the creation of the tax in 1913. The tax cuts of the 1920’s led to the great depression. The Reagan Tax cuts led to the crash of the late 1980’s, the Bush Tax cuts led to the current mess, because those wealthy who got the lions share of the tax cuts did NOT go out and start new businesses, they started investing in credit default swaps and bundled mortgages to get regular monthly income without the muss and fuss of actual property ownership. Why did banks start offering easier and easier mortgages? Because a lot of wealthy people who had even MORE money were demanding new places to put that money and get a better than savings account level of annual interest on it.

Democrats’ ‘tribal loyalty’ to be tested on health care

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Democrats’ ‘tribal loyalty’ to be tested on health care

391 comments Add your comment

About Jay Bookman

Search this blog

Recent Posts

Archives

More from the AJC

Blogroll

FairTax archive

Laffer Curve debunked

The House GOP budget

All AJC blogs »

Tell us what you think about the site

Subscribe »

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Advertising

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