Democrats’ ‘tribal loyalty’ to be tested on health care
Democrats as a rule aren’t very good at the political loyalty thing, certainly not as good as the Republicans are.
Often that’s a good thing. The refusal of George Bush to rein in the excesses of the Republican-controlled Congress, and the refusal of the Republican Congress to do the same with Bush, in the end did long-term damage to both the country and the party.
On the other hand, party discipline does help a lot when you’re trying to get things done. If the Republicans had 60 votes in the Senate and a healthy margin in the House, as the Democrats now do, you can bet they’d be pushing through their preferred programs with a lot more dispatch and efficiency than Barack Obama, Harry Reid and Nancy Pelosi have managed so far.
For that reason, Republicans have been pretty foolish to talk openly of their desire to halt health-care reform as a way to “break” the Obama presidency and make it his Waterloo, as Sen. Jim Demint said the other day. GOP Chairman Michael Steele and Newt Gingrich have chimed in too, with Gingrich suggesting that health care reform “could be the bill that drags his whole presidency down and they look back on it and suddenly the whole thing is unraveled.”
That’s just the kind of talk that could rally Democrats to Obama’s side. Preserving Obama’s image of strength was clearly part of the party leadership’s calculation in drumming up votes in support of the his veto threat on the F-22, and that same dynamic will play out on health care as well. Even Democrats who have concerns about Obama’s approach — whether those concerns are heart-felt or more political in nature — have a lot invested in the president’s success. If he’s crippled this early in his term, congressional Democrats become crippled as well, and the Republicans have kindly reminded them of that reality.
That’s one reason I think that in the end, we’ll see a major reform bill passed.
Oft
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391 comments Add your comment
DB, Gwinnettian
July 22nd, 2009
3:45 pm
Not sure what it is but he’s got it.
Likely he does indeed, but time will tell.
.
.
(sorry, gratuitous and so-last-year… but I figured some weren’t getting Mrs. G’s ref @ 3.35.)
@@
July 22nd, 2009
3:45 pm
NEW YORK (Reuters) – A U.S. man has been charged with giving al Qaeda details about the New York City transit system and the Long Island Railroad, as well as firing rockets on U.S. troops in Afghanistan, according to court papers unsealed on Wednesday.
Bryant Neal Vinas, 26, is also accused of receiving military-type training between March and August last year from the Islamist extremist group headed by Osama bin Laden.
Vinas provided al Qaeda with “expert advice and assistance, including assistance derived from specialized knowledge of the New York transit system and Long Island Railroad, communications equipment and personnel, including himself,” said the court papers, unsealed in New York federal court.
DB, Gwinnettian
July 22nd, 2009
3:46 pm
oh, & my pic @ 3.45 probably is not safe for (some) work. I guess.
Finn McCool
July 22nd, 2009
3:48 pm
Count health care reform as being in trouble if you must but I’ll bet my bottom dollar that this will pass this year – in the form that he wants it in.
About the deadline: of course he set a deadline for August. When you want your employees to deliver 5% net growth you tell them 10% and you hook their bonus to that 10%. It’s called carrot and stick or stretch targets or whatever.
You guys are discounting who we are dealing with: The guy whose team beat the Clinton campaign machine hands down. The guy who swept through to the brass ring after only being on the national stage for 4 years.
Take notes. This guy knows how to get it done.
DebbieDoRight
July 22nd, 2009
3:50 pm
DB at 3:45 too funny!!! I could just see him saying that too!!!
Turd Ferguson
July 22nd, 2009
3:51 pm
I will agree that he is an excellent con-man.
Bosch
July 22nd, 2009
3:51 pm
The Taco Bell dog died!!! How sad. No joke. My mother-in-law really thought that dog could talk. How the other Bosch turned out so incredible is beyond me.
@@
July 22nd, 2009
3:52 pm
I also remember Obama saying “I get it!”
“I know how unpopular it is to be seen as helping banks right now, especially when everyone is suffering in part from their bad decisions. I promise you – I get it,” he said.
“But I also know that in a time of crisis, we cannot afford to govern out of anger, or yield to the politics of the moment.
“My job – our job – is to solve the problem. Our job is to govern with a sense of responsibility. I will not spend a single penny for the purpose of rewarding a single Wall Street executive, but I will do whatever it takes to help the small business that can’t pay its workers or the family that has saved and still can’t get a mortgage.”
He will not spend a single penny for the purpose of rewarding a single Wall Street executive?
Phoday Topkah
July 22nd, 2009
3:53 pm
I am just moven from Liberia. I be the docter there and here I ambeing some thing else to make muny. Amerika is great country that gived me and my kidz the opperterniti. I read the newzpaper ever day so that my reedink get good and I be the doctor agen. But why does Jay say bad thinks about Bush. Bush is great man and big hero in Liberia. We luv Precident Bushes.
Mrs. Godzilla
July 22nd, 2009
3:53 pm
DB
One of my favorite photos……thanks.
Curious Observer
July 22nd, 2009
3:55 pm
What happened to the initial premise–that citizens would have access to the same plans used by federal employees? There are some 24 of them. My impression was that the only issue was whether there was going to be a government-operated plan among them, a la Medicare.
Now we’re getting very little information about the healthcare bills being considered by Congress. Instead, they’re wrestling with issues such as whether to tax private plans, how to cut Medicare reimbursements to providers, etc.
I consider myself a fairly well informed person, but I’m encountering nothing to indicate what the coverage options are in the bills. We’re getting a lot of smoke, but for the life of me I can’t detect the fire. The only flames I’m seeing are streaming from the the shot-down chances for a reasonable bill. I’m growing increasingly suspicious that the Democrats are once again blowing the opportunity to provide all Americans with access to affordable and decent healthcare coverage. That opportunity won’t come again.
Bosch
July 22nd, 2009
3:55 pm
Gandalf,
Your Phoday Topkah character needs some work…..just sayin’
Mrs. Godzilla
July 22nd, 2009
3:56 pm
Talking tribal loyalty,,,,,
George Voinovich (R-OH) said on CNBC Wednesday that a desire to prevent the Democratic president from scoring a historical victory with a public health plan accounts for at least 50 percent of the GOP opposition to the plan.
Bosch
July 22nd, 2009
3:58 pm
Mrs. G.,
Wow. So screw the people, we just want Obama to look bad.
Gale
July 22nd, 2009
4:00 pm
I am with whoever said it above. Put the plan in simple terms so Americans can understand what the plan is. Then we can tell whether it is acceptable. Probably there is no plan that will satisfy everyone. But if they cannot even put the plan into plain talk, of course we are suspicious of the devil in the details.
Hillbilly Deluxe
July 22nd, 2009
4:01 pm
Curious Observer
If nothing gets done this time, I don’t believe it will happen for a long, long time.
md
July 22nd, 2009
4:08 pm
“So, if that guy gets his health insuance paid for, why should I pay for my own and his. I’ll just drop mine and let the government pay for my insurance too”
Since you and I are the gov’t, we still pay his.
Raider
July 22nd, 2009
4:08 pm
Here are 2 simple definitions – ready – here they are
Socialism = Government Ownership
Example = General Motors
Fascism = Government Control
Example = Our Health Care
If you liberals can not see that, then you are like Bobby Boucher in the movie “The Waterboy”
to Stu-stu-stu-stu-stu-stu-pid!
Hey, if you are going down the street and going the wrong way, what the heck do you do? Go back? Turn around and go back? EXACTLY! But Obama steps on the gas and keeps going faster! If he is not going to stop, then we Americans have to stop him ourselfs. Lets go everyboby! Say no to socialism! Say no to more bailouts! And make damn sure to say NO to Obamacare!
DB, Gwinnettian
July 22nd, 2009
4:09 pm
Paul, a little light-a-candle moment–I happened to hear that discussion with Charlie R. on the Brian Lehrer show. His is a very good news/interview thing out of NYC, figured you might be interested in downloading a podcast (or just listening by clicking a link) sometime.
Like for today, one of his segments covers questions the listeners would ask Obama at tonight’s healthcare presser. If such stuff interests you.
Stuff awaits; later, all.
Bosch
July 22nd, 2009
4:10 pm
Raider,
The socialism and fascism card is soooo yesterday. Keep up.
Mrs. Godzilla
July 22nd, 2009
4:12 pm
Raider = too funny
Eddy
July 22nd, 2009
4:14 pm
When O’s numbers begin to approach single digits, you can still come here for your daily sip of koolaid. Gimme a 0; gimme a 0; gimme a 0; what’ah you got, still a 0. Do they poll for less than 0?
DebbieDoRight
July 22nd, 2009
4:16 pm
So screw the people, we just want Obama to look bad.
That’s been their mantra since November 9, 2008!!! Repuglicans are all about win baby win; they could give a rat’s behind about the populace. They’re always talking about States’ rights and how the government is trampling over them; yet the totally forget the trampling they themselves did over Terri Schiavo’s rights or her husband’s right to make decisions for his wife’s care.
I mean, honestly, what has the repuglican party done for America lately?
md
July 22nd, 2009
4:16 pm
Bosch,
As for your “life, liberty, and pursuit of happiness crap”, remember it only takes one word to change a meaning, and in this instance its “pursuit”. Pursuit does mean guaranteed.
Lord Help Us
July 22nd, 2009
4:17 pm
Raider,
Incompetence = inablity to govern
example = Bush Administration
Tyranny = Warrantless Eavesdropping, torture
Example = Bush Administration
You’re not a ‘birther’ are you?
Mrs. Godzilla
July 22nd, 2009
4:18 pm
not birther….perhaps hatched
Bosch
July 22nd, 2009
4:18 pm
md,
But we can’t pursue happiness if we are sick and dying.
Debbie,
“I mean, honestly, what has the repuglican party done for America lately?”
Given us LOTS of fun hypocritical fodder to laugh at!
jacksmith
July 22nd, 2009
4:18 pm
LEAD, FOLLOW, OR GET OUT OF THE WAY. (Thomas Paine)
We have the 37th worst quality of healthcare in the developed world.
I know that many of you are angry and frustrated that REPUBLICANS! In congress are dragging their feet and trying to block TRUE healthcare reform. What republicans want is just a taxpayer bailout of the DISGRACEFUL GREED DRIVEN PRIVATE FOR PROFIT health insurance industry, and the DISGRACEFUL GREED DRIVEN PRIVATE FOR PROFIT healthcare industry. An insurance bailout is all you really get without a robust government-run public option available on day one.
These industries have been slaughtering you and your loved ones like cattle for decades for profit. Including members of congress and their families. These REPUBLICANS are FOOLS!
Republicans and their traitorous allies have been trying to make it look like it’s President Obama’s fault for the delays, and foot dragging. But I think you all know better than that. President Obama inherited one of the worst government catastrophes in American history from these REPUBLICANS! And President Obama has done a brilliant job of turning things around, and working his heart out for all of us.
But Republicans think you are just a bunch of stupid, idiot, cash cows with short memories. Just like they did under the Bush administration when they helped Bush and Cheney rape America and the rest of the World.
But you don’t have to put up with that. And this is what you can do. The Republicans below will be up for reelection on November 2, 2010. Just a little over 13 months from now. And many of you will be able to vote early. So pick some names and tell them that their representatives (by name) are obstructing TRUE healthcare reform. And are sellouts to the insurance and medical lobbyist.
Ask them to contact their representatives and tell them that they are going to work to throw them out of office on November 2, 2010, if not before by impeachment, or recall elections. Doing this will give you something more to do to make things better in America. And it will help you feel better too.
There are many resources on the internet that can help you find people to call and contact. For example, many social networking sites can be searched by state, city, or University. Be inventive and creative. I can think of many ways to do this. But be nice. These are your neighbors. And most will want to help.
I know there are a few democrats that have been trying to obstruct TRUE healthcare reform too. But the main problem is the Bush Republicans. Removing them is the best thing tactically to do. On the other hand. If you can easily replace a democrat obstructionist with a supportive democrat, DO IT!
You have been AMAZING!!! my people. Don’t loose heart. You knew it wasn’t going to be easy saving the World.
God Bless You
jacksmith — Working Class
Republican Senators up for re-election in 2010.
* Richard Shelby of Alabama
* Lisa Murkowski of Alaska
* John McCain of Arizona
* Mel Martinez of Florida
* Johnny Isakson of Georgia
* Mike Crapo of Idaho
* Chuck Grassley of Iowa
* Sam Brownback of Kansas
* Jim Bunning of Kentucky
* David Vitter of Louisiana
* Kit Bond of Missouri
* Judd Gregg of New Hampshire
* Richard Burr of North Carolina
* George Voinovich of Ohio
* Tom Coburn of Oklahoma
* Jim DeMint of South Carolina
* John Thune of South Dakota
* Kay Bailey Hutchison of Texas
* Bob Bennett of Utah
Mrs. Godzilla
July 22nd, 2009
4:19 pm
so…. recess or no?
md
July 22nd, 2009
4:19 pm
” yet the totally forget the trampling they themselves did over Terri Schiavo’s rights or her husband’s right to make decisions for his wife’s care.”
I’m a registered independant, but do you really want to talk about rights considering the rights (or lack of) for the unborn.
Bosch
July 22nd, 2009
4:19 pm
md,
And actually, I put healthcare in the “life” category. You know, if you believe that crap and all.
Mrs. Godzilla
July 22nd, 2009
4:23 pm
Lewis Black on healthcare……
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=385×340809
Bosch
July 22nd, 2009
4:23 pm
“Mike Crapo” WHAT?
Crapo? There’s a dude in the Senate whose last name is “Crapo?” Why in the hell would anybody in their right mind vote for a guy whose last name is “Crapo?”
Bud Wiser
July 22nd, 2009
4:25 pm
Bud Wiser
July 22nd, 2009
4:26 pm
uh oh, I just had an epiphany … I wrote something that went blank when posted.
N-GA
July 22nd, 2009
4:27 pm
Bosch,
Cuz it kinda rhymes with Idaho?
Maybe he rapped his way into office……
Bosch
July 22nd, 2009
4:27 pm
Bud Wiser,
Dude, that’s not an epiphany. An epiphany is a light bulb over the head moment.
AmVet
July 22nd, 2009
4:29 pm
Bud at 4:25, that is by far the smartest thing you have ever written…
jacksmith, thanks for the list. What a rogues gallery of has-beens and never was-es…
Trust me
July 22nd, 2009
4:29 pm
What makes anyone think that we have a health care industry in this country. We don’t. We have companies offering less and less coverage for higher and higher premiums and co-pays, etc., year after year and they desperately want a better approach. We have millions of unemployed with no coverage and nothing affordable so they wait in line at emergency rooms trying to get help. We have insurance companies insisting on increasing their profits by at least 20 percent per year so investors are happy enough to allow the executives to skim off millions per year for themselves. We have hospitals and doctors looking under every stone for sources of increased revenue… And, this is what the Republicans want us to keep because the tax payers are already providing them with very good coverage at no cost to them whatsoever.
N-GA
July 22nd, 2009
4:29 pm
Paul (your 3:14),
I think the Reps have it all over the Dems when it comes to style. However, when the Dems do something stupid, the do it with more joie de vivre.
Bosch
July 22nd, 2009
4:30 pm
N-GA,
Maybe so. That’s the funniest thing I’ve seen in a long time.
How can anybody in the Senate keep a straight face when they hear:
“Senator Crapo, you now have the floor!”
Number1Ninja
July 22nd, 2009
4:30 pm
Well, maybe in acandle in this case.
N-GA
July 22nd, 2009
4:33 pm
Bosch…the guy had to have been a Marine before he went into public service.
Kamchak
July 22nd, 2009
4:34 pm
Bosch
Why would anybody vote for a man named Swindall? Just askin’.
Mrs. Godzilla
July 22nd, 2009
4:34 pm
more on tribalism….
To Rep. Eric Cantor of Virginia, the House Republican whip, it is “the nonpartisan Lewin Group.” To Republicans on the House Ways and Means Committee, it is an “independent research firm.” To Sen. Orrin Hatch of Utah, the second-ranking Republican on the pivotal Finance Committee, it is “well known as one of the most nonpartisan groups in the country.”
Generally left unsaid amid all the citations is that the Lewin Group is wholly owned by UnitedHealth Group, one of the nation’s largest insurers.
HMMMMMMM…..
Trust me
July 22nd, 2009
4:34 pm
I’m a registered independant, but do you really want to talk about rights considering the rights (or lack of) for the unborn.
Just what rights does a non-existent non-person get under the constitution or even in the Bible. What are these mythical rights. Spell ‘em out and then tell us all why they deserve them along with some basis to support your claims. People have rights. Living, breathing, viable people.
Raider
July 22nd, 2009
4:37 pm
Hey Jack, if go to those rankings, on the PDF fil,e and go to page 6 (the last page) its says – SOURCE UKNOWN! Who the heck knows where that came from.(those rankings) And also, the only ranking I care about is the one where I live, right here baby! NUMBER 1 But you want us to copy France, Germay, Canada and Cuba. America does not COPY any country on anything! Jack, this is the United States of Freaking America! We do not copy nobody, they copy us! BTW, the Cuban healthcare is the envy of the world. Why don’t you go live there and get all the free health care you want!
Mrs. Godzilla
July 22nd, 2009
4:38 pm
They copy us?
Now they’ll be a 37 way ties for 37th place?
Go team!
Mr. Herbert
July 22nd, 2009
4:39 pm
guess who?
Mrs. Godzilla
July 22nd, 2009
4:40 pm
Raider
Stats are from the WHO
World Health Organization
Mr. Herbert
July 22nd, 2009
4:40 pm
do you like popsicles?
N-GA
July 22nd, 2009
4:41 pm
Bosch….I looked him up. He pronounces his name Cray-Poe. He’s a Mormon (LDS), and some good women loved him enough to give up her maiden name. Unfortunately his 5 kids didn’t have the same choice. I suspect his daugters will marry young.
Mrs. Godzilla
July 22nd, 2009
4:42 pm
more on tribalism….
Randall Terry predicted the consequences of passing the bill, he seemed to exalt in warning of “random acts of violence” and violent “reprisals against those deemed guilty”
AmVet
July 22nd, 2009
4:43 pm
“Jack, this is the United States of Freaking America! We do not copy nobody, they copy us!”
Hombre, you were born a hundred years too late…
Kamchak
July 22nd, 2009
4:43 pm
“But you want us to copy France, Germany, Canada and Cuba. America does not COPY any country on anything.”
News flash genius—Canadians and Cubans ARE Americans. “America” is a continental distinction.
Eddy
July 22nd, 2009
4:49 pm
Let’s not ask a Canadian, Brit, Frog, etc. how they like their healthcare. Oh, they are over here seeking treatment. Go ask someone in the middle class how RomneyCare is working in Mass. Obama and his minions are a mile wide and an inch deep on most anything related to healthcare…..how much will it cost? We don’t know!!! Will there be rationing? We don’t know!!! What choices will the average American have in choosing a healthcare provider? We don’t know! Will the President and Congress and all federal employees have to participate in the “new” healthcare plan? Of course not, it is only for the little people. Are my premiums going up? We don’t know!!
I could go on….so again please tell me specifically the answers to these simple and obvious questions. We don’t know!!! Hey minions, the clift is within sight!!! Talk about tribal….But O said so and he managed the auto bailouts, banks, foreclosures, etc with such finesse and speed.
DoggoneGA
July 22nd, 2009
4:49 pm
“Why in the hell would anybody in their right mind vote for a guy whose last name is “Crapo?””
Don’t point fingers. WE had one named “Newt” – which is, in case you didn’t know, a slimy, slippery salamandar like creature.
Bud Wiser
July 22nd, 2009
4:51 pm
I am familiar with the meaning of ‘epiphany’, I just misspoke what it was about. I had written a rather lengthy reply to some previous posts, and when I clicked SUBMIT COMMENT, it subtracted instead of added, thus the blank.
Oh well.
Mrs G., I hope you caught my previous thread comments about St Maarten that you had referenced.
N-GA
July 22nd, 2009
4:52 pm
Eddy,
Please….Don’t go on and on because the UK and Canada don’t have anything like what Obama is proposing. There is a big difference between INSURANCE and government-provided healthcare. If you really G.A.S., do some of your own research rather than relying on the spin spewed daily by the opposition.
Curious Observer
July 22nd, 2009
4:53 pm
Well, at least Crapo’s kids had no choice about the last name. But I once taught a brother and sister named Masculan and Femily Jones. What kind of parents would hang names like those on their kids?
Kamchak
July 22nd, 2009
4:55 pm
“She turned me into a newt!”
“A newt?”
“I got better.”
Eddy
July 22nd, 2009
4:55 pm
And so N-GA, please answer my questions and give more details of the proposed plan. You said or implied that you know what is contained in O’s plan. Specifics???
DoggoneGA
July 22nd, 2009
4:56 pm
“What kind of parents would hang names like those on their kids?”
How about Moon Unit?
Mrs. Godzilla
July 22nd, 2009
4:56 pm
Bud….yep….
AHHHHHHH, just thinkin’ about it.
Raider
July 22nd, 2009
4:57 pm
Mrs Godzilla, I know its from the World Health Organization – but if you go their website and get the PDF file and download it – the last page (page 6) its says SOURCE UKNOWN. Explain that! They can not even site the source of that info. Again, explain that!
booger
July 22nd, 2009
4:57 pm
This entire thing is academic. Obama has already told two groups that if congress can’t get it passed, he will impose the reconciliation clause, and do it without congress.
Lord Help Us
July 22nd, 2009
4:59 pm
Geez, a few facts and Raider’s head explodes…
Congratulations, Raider, you flamed out even quicker than most of the lunatic fringe that fly by every now and then.
‘Facts have a liberal bias…’Man I love Colbert…
Eddy
July 22nd, 2009
5:03 pm
My point without belaboring it is that no one knows the specifics of his proposed healthcare plan. But a vote is supposed to be taken and O insists that it must pass. Should be a simple matter for one of his minions to detail what’s in the plan, what’s not in the plan, its costs in aggregate over what ever period of time, what are the savings and where do they come from, what’s the cost impact on the average family. Is that unreasonable?
Trust me
July 22nd, 2009
5:04 pm
Five million adults have lost insurance since Sept. 2008. I wonder how many need to stop making payments to insurance companies before it starts hurting their bottom line. Then, more and more people stop making those trips to the doctor and their bottom line starts feeling the pinch. The emergency rooms and Wal-Mart get more business but only one of them is able to turn a profit from it. If Republicans win their latest little battle against the citizens of the USofA, I wonder how voters will ‘feel’ about it. Go for it and let’s find out.
Trust me
July 22nd, 2009
5:09 pm
Well, if “no one knows” what’s in the plan, how can there be a plan because how can there be a plan in no one knows what’s in the plan. It’s just another Brick in the Wall.
Swami Dave
July 22nd, 2009
5:11 pm
…and in an alternative call to jacksmith:
Any of you who actually value freedom and opportunity make sure to support those candidates and oppose any who are going to follow lock-step (in “tribal” fashion as Jay might define it) in support of a plan that they will neither understand nor have probably even read.
Most of you in this group recognize that further nationalizing entire segments of our economy based on the liberal philosophy of diminishing quality and drastically increasing cost for the majority of Americans based on the self-appointed definitions of “equality” and “need” is an asinine plan that follows along in lemming-like fashion with some of history’s greatest government and bureaucratic debacles.
It goes without saying that most of you understand that taking what is earned by one individual or group to fund transfer payments and services to another group without fair exchange of value is theft. That would make those who continue to promote this historically-failed political theology either thieves themselves (who acquire power via the act of theft and redistribution) or those duped by the thieves based on their own misguided ideals of “fairness” or “justice”.
Go ahead and tell your elected representatives that you understand that this administration is wasting tax dollars (and dollars that we do not even have) at a historical pace growing exponentially on legislation and programs that worsen our ecnomic situation. Make sure to remind them that only fools (like JabberJoe Biden) are so stupid to think that you resolve problems like rampant spending, growing deficits, and a stagnating economy by greater unrestrained spending of more deficit-obtained dollars that further shrink and destablize our economy.
Also mention that you will be voting in 2010 and 2012, and much like 1980, the only way that clueless brigands of the lunatic left will see governance occurring will be from the gallery!
-SD
Raider
July 22nd, 2009
5:12 pm
Jack and Mrs Godzilla, while you are looking that crap up, let me ask you another question. Where are those 100 million dollar spending cuts? Its been 90 days – passed 90 days, and I do not see those cuts. On April 20th 2009, Obama and his cabinet said, we are to have 100 million dollar spending cuts for the 3 trillion dollar budget. Where are those cuts he promised? Dont tell me another lie. Obama is a lying machine! I need to keep a record of how many lies come out of his mouth. He will be for sure lying tonight! Take your time on that Source Uknown and those 100 million cuts, I will not be waiting!
N-GA
July 22nd, 2009
5:13 pm
Eddy,
I don’t know the details any more than you do. But you are spouting about the UK , Canadian and French healthcare programs as though that is what the administration is proposing for us, and that just isn’t so. They are entirely different approaches. If your only problem is with not knowing the details, then just say so. But don’t go off trying to compare apples to oranges.
md
July 22nd, 2009
5:14 pm
“Just what rights does a non-existent non-person get under the constitution or even in the Bible. What are these mythical rights. Spell ‘em out and then tell us all why they deserve them along with some basis to support your claims. People have rights. Living, breathing, viable people.”
Other than a definition, explain why a premature child born early and is now outside the womb has a different set of rights than the same age child inside the womb.
A seed will remain a seed until fertilized, at which point it becomes a life form with living cells. You and those like you can come up with all the definitions you want to justify your position, but the life form will never be a seed again.
DoggoneGA
July 22nd, 2009
5:19 pm
“Other than a definition, explain why a premature child born early and is now outside the womb has a different set of rights than the same age child inside the womb”
Maybe you don’t mean it to sound like this, but this reads to ME like an argument for forced, premature delivery of EVERY child ever conceived.
RW-(the original)
July 22nd, 2009
5:19 pm
The 37th place ranking of the United States’ health care system by the World Health Organization (W.H.O.) is not an assessment of the quality of American health care, but rather expresses the organization’s preference for public financing of health care, says Twila Brase, president of the Citizens’ Council on Health Care.
The W.H.O.’s June 2000 report, “The World Health Report 2000-Health Systems: Improving Performance,” finds the United States ranked number one, out of 191 countries surveyed, in responsiveness to patient’s needs for choice of provider, dignity, autonomy, timely care and confidentiality.
However, the W.H.O. faulted the U.S. for not requiring mandatory health insurance or offering social welfare programs to all citizens — thereby failing to meet the WHO’s fairness and distribution goals relative to total health-care resources.
http://www.ncpa.org/sub/dpd/index.php?Article_ID=9059
I Report :-) You Whine :-(
July 22nd, 2009
5:27 pm
Democrats as a rule aren’t very good at the political loyalty thing, certainly not as good as the Republicans are.
Just think, only a few short weeks ago Republicans were being scolded by this hack for shunning the squish moderate Republicans.
Now, all of a sudden, we’re robots.
And don’t get us wrong, toadies, we love your little health care bill, ever since you started shoving this thing down the throat of the American people, Obozo’s approval ratings have tanked.
Bravo, yes, let’s double down your bets, go for it.
And if that doesn’t trash his poll numbers, I say you should try to take our guns away.
Bring.
It.
On.
md
July 22nd, 2009
5:28 pm
“Maybe you don’t mean it to sound like this, but this reads to ME like an argument for forced, premature delivery of EVERY child ever conceived.”
Its actually a very simple question.
2 “beings” conceived at the exact same time. One goes full term of 9 months, the other comes out early at say 3 months, put on life support and survives. According to “trust me”, the one on the machine has “rights” and the other does not until it comes out.
Sounds like discrimination to me. Maybe the aclu needs to get involved, but I doubt they would actually help the ones that need it the most.
Trust me
July 22nd, 2009
5:29 pm
Other than a definition, explain why a premature child born early and is now outside the womb has a different set of rights than the same age child inside the womb.
A seed will remain a seed until fertilized, at which point it becomes a life form with living cells. You and those like you can come up with all the definitions you want to justify your position, but the life form will never be a seed again.
One topic at a time, why not! The post that I referenced did not contain any of this. It talked about the ‘unborn’. Is that a new horror flick. That’s hardly the same topic as one about a living, breathing person. Further, a seed is a seed. It may or may not sprout into a living breathing person and hence have the rights that are bestowed upon living, breathing persons. Now surely, people like you can quit proclaiming to know the positions of people like me. Then again, you would not be “people like you” any longer, would you.
jt
July 22nd, 2009
5:30 pm
Forethought we may have, undoubtedly, but not foresight.
Napoleon Bonapart, after Waterloo.
AmVet
July 22nd, 2009
5:30 pm
The US spends $7,129 per capita on health care—more than twice as much per capita as the rest of the industrialized world.
The US performs poorly in comparison on major health indicators such as life expectancy and infant mortality.
Inability to pay for medical bills is the leading cause of bankruptcies.
In our current system, there are thousands of different payers of health care fees.
This system is a bureaucratic nightmare, wasting $350 billion—close to a third of all health care spending on things that have nothing to do with health care—overhead, underwriting, billing, sales and marketing departments, huge profits and exorbitant executive pay.
In addition, there is over $200 billion in computerized billing fraud and abuse.
There is a better way.
Single payer.
http://www.votenader.org/issues/single-payer/
booger
July 22nd, 2009
5:31 pm
There has never been health care legislation which didn’t cost substantially more than was projected. Medicare for example was put in in 1965 with a first year cost estimate of $3 billion, and a projection that it would rise to $12 billion by 1990. In 1990 the costs were $109 billion, over 9 times the projection. The Massachutes plan which is only about four years old is already about 200% of what was projected.
Given this, and the fact that the congressional budjet office says the projections are way off, is it not reasonable to balk at the cram down approach Obama is taking, and insist that there at least be time for complete review before a vote is taken?
jt
July 22nd, 2009
5:33 pm
Speaking of Obama and Waterloo.
If you wish to be a success in the world, promise everything, deliver nothing.
Napoleon Bonaparte
Paul
July 22nd, 2009
5:35 pm
N-GA 4:29
Haven’t heard that phrase since the last time I watched one of my favorite movies, The Scarlet Pimpernel!
Bosch!
5:30 – didja notice? I feel an Abba moment coming…
jt
July 22nd, 2009
5:39 pm
Fascinating. It would seem as if Napoleon knew Obama.
With audacity one can undertake anything, but not accomplish nothing.
Napoleon Bonaparte
Trust me
July 22nd, 2009
5:45 pm
Some folks keep talking about the costs of other plans as though there is some ‘absolute’ going on here. Why not talk about the cost and quality of care offered by our current ‘plan’ and compare that to options. You know, so people can make decisions based on something other than feelings and conjecture and just flat out lies.
Bosch
July 22nd, 2009
5:50 pm
Everyone take cover!!! Paul feels an ABBA moment coming!!!
N-GA,
Yeah, of course he pronounces it “Cray-po” – I hope the guy has a great personality!
Kamchak,
I totally missed your Heather Mitts post!
Greg Mendel
July 22nd, 2009
5:54 pm
It’s a good idea to take a good, informed look at any plan for health care reform, but Congress isn’t doing that. They’re like passengers on the Titanic debating whether to pretend the ship isn’t sinking, board the lifeboats, or wait for a train. One thing is almost certain, if a reasonable (not perfect) health care reform bill is delayed too long, there simply won’t be any reform.
In my view, Obama, like Clinton, is trying to gain support by sucking up to the greedy cabal that is the root of the problem. In this case, compromise means no change.
Change, of course, scares people. Obama was elected because he promised change — which people wanted, until they were faced with it. The Republicans know this, and are using fear and ignorance to their advantage. There’s so much nonsense being hyped. Europe, especially France, has the best, most affordable health care in the world. Everybody’s covered, and they pay for it — just not nearly as much as we pay. Here, we have Medicare. If you qualify for Medicare, the government can’t turn you down, but doctors can. In such a case, it’s a private doctor, not the government, denying you care. Regardless of its faults, Obama’s reform is reform of COVERAGE, not a proposal for government-run medicine.
It’s a contest between protecting obscene profits versus providing affordable health care, and you can bet your life the profiteers will win.
md
July 22nd, 2009
5:58 pm
“Why not talk about the cost and quality of care offered by our current ‘plan’ and compare that to options.”
And there in lies the problem, for as it stands now there is only an option without the “s”. Why the hurry and where are the other options? We can come up with hundreds on this board given the chance, yet congress has one and it has to be done now. No it doesn’t.
booger
July 22nd, 2009
5:59 pm
Onew of the main reasons that Medicare and Medicaid projections were so vastly low is that they did not take into account expensive new technology which saves a lot of lives but costs a lot of money. One group who is studying the house bill says there are no provisions in the cost projections for technology which may drive costs up. If there is new technology, then we will go over budget to pay for it or its use will be discouraged or banned.
DoggoneGA
July 22nd, 2009
6:02 pm
“Sounds like discrimination to me”
Still sounds like an argument for forced premature delivery to me. IF, as you think, the 2 “beings” have the same right because they are at the same stage of development…you can’t leave out the THIRD BEING: the woman still carrying the foetus that has not yet been delivered. In order to avoid violating HER right to control her own body, you would HAVE to separate the foetus so that it is a distinct, separate being. Until that happens, either naturally or forced, the foetus is not a separate being with inherent rights of it’s own. It is still a symbiote of the woman carrying it, and is subordinate to her rights.
In order to preserve the woman’s rights AND to give the foetus IT’s “rights” there is no alternative, you would have to separate them.
jt
July 22nd, 2009
6:03 pm
5:35
Metrosexual- Check
TnGelding
July 22nd, 2009
6:05 pm
@@
July 22nd, 2009
3:37 pm
There’s fraud in every government program, but who is that a reflection on?
md
July 22nd, 2009
6:08 pm
Too bad CBO can’t write the bills as they appear to be the only ones that actually have a clue.
Trust me
July 22nd, 2009
6:11 pm
Some of us are all too familiar with the current system. That’s precisely why we want options. Not more of the same broken system. Not more of the greedy insurance companies and their multi-millionaire executives. Not more of the plans with ever-increasing premiums and co-pays for less and less coverage… .That’s not an option. Give us real options and let us pick what we want. Put a public option on the table and keep the current once-yearly renewal approach. People can try different plans from different folks and pick what they like. Even Romney got up off his buttocks and tried something. It may not be perfect but it is a lot better than just saying no to everything. That Republican mantra is DOA.
Bosch
July 22nd, 2009
6:12 pm
Paul,
Ha ha. Jt called you a metrosexual. Hehehehehehehe. He. He…
I have to warn you – I’m gonna be on an all clear liquid diet tomorrow, so I may be grumpy and mean. I wonder if the doctor will be okay with vodka and rum in my clear liquid diet?
md
July 22nd, 2009
6:14 pm
“In order to preserve the woman’s rights AND to give the foetus IT’s “rights” there is no alternative, you would have to separate them.”
I believe the women compromises her rights when she opens her legs. That is when she has made a choice to “share” her rights (not including forced pregnancies). Just because an individual made a poor choice does not diminish the rights of the other being in the equation. Every choice we make has a resulting consequence. Thats life, and its not always fair.
Bosch
July 22nd, 2009
6:16 pm
All this healthcare talk has got me to wondering about the folks who are having the same “issues” I’m having but don’t have either a) no insurance or b) sucky insurance.
TnGelding
July 22nd, 2009
6:18 pm
Mrs. Godzilla
July 22nd, 2009
4:19 pm
Yes on the recess. Make sure you attend your representatives THM everyone. And senator’s too, if they happen to have one in your area.
Only slightly off topic:
“You are what you eat” goes an old saying. How about “You remember what you eat”? More proof that diet can influence cognitive health and dementia was announced this week from a long-term study involving more than 3,000 people ages 65 and older who had no sign of dementia at its start.
http://blogs.ajc.com/better-health/2009/07/22/aging-caring-foods-that-prevent-memory-loss/
Trust me
July 22nd, 2009
6:21 pm
And there in lies the problem, for as it stands now there is only an option without the “s”. Why the hurry and where are the other options? We can come up with hundreds on this board given the chance, yet congress has one and it has to be done now. No it doesn’t.
Why the hurry! Is that some sort of sick joke. Do you think we live forever. Do you think that people in need of help can just be put on life support or in a freezer until you feel like taking time out of your busy schedule to do something. Clearly, that approach may be acceptable to you but not to the majority. If we (the majority) wanted more of the same, we could have voted for it. We did not.