Robert McNamara, may he finally rest in peace
Robert McNamara
Donald Rumsfeld
They were different men of different eras. But the parallels between Robert McNamara, the defense secretary closely identified with the Vietnam War, and Donald Rumsfeld, his own long career linked forever to the Iraq War, are more than merely physical.
Both men entered office intent on modernizing a hidebound Pentagon bureaucracy, yet quickly found themselves running wars they did not want and did not understand. That failure proved disastrous. As the Prussian strategist Carl von Clausewitz famously argued, “the first, the supreme, the most far reaching act of judgment that the statesman and commander” must make is to understand the nature of the war they are fighting. “This is the first of all strategic questions and the most comprehensive,” Clausewitz argued, and neither McNamara nor Rumsfeld got it.
Both men were stubbornly arrogant. Both put so much faith in the overwhelming power of the U.S. military that they ignored the human side of war. Both pandered to the presidents they served, telling them what they wanted to hear rather than what they needed to hear. As Anthony Cordesman of the Center for Strategic and International Studies once noted, “There is far too little difference between the ‘neoconservatives’ of Iraq and Afghanistan and the ‘neoliberals’ of Vietnam.”
McNamara, 93, died this morning at his home in Washington. To his credit, he had long ago realized the errors of judgment, analysis and morality that contributed to U.S. failure in Vietnam, and he acknowledged them publicly. Watching him struggle with his legacy in the 2003 documentary “Fog of War” was profoundly excruciating, and something that no student of power or its personal toll should miss. A lot of Vietnam veterans will never forgive McNamara, and from their point of view I guess I can understand that. But he was at least willing to acknowledge his errors, and the price they exacted from others.
That’s where the parallels with Rumsfeld cease. If Rumsfeld has such moments of doubt — and as a man of considerable intelligence, he must — he keeps them mostly hidden. In fact, he has repeatedly attempted to dump the responsibility for what happened in Iraq onto others.
In 2004, for example, Rumsfeld responded to criticism that we were trying to occupy Iraq with insufficient manpower by claiming that “the big debate about the number of troops is one of those things that’s really out of my control.” This, from one of the most hands-on, detail-obsessed defense secretaries since, well, McNamara.
Lt. Gen. Ricardo Sanchez, the man who had been left behind to run Iraq with insufficient resources, wrote in his memoirs about a final private meeting with Rumsfeld in 2006, before Sanchez took retirement. In that meeting, Rumsfeld tried to pressure Sanchez into signing a memo stating that Rumsfeld had been kept in the dark about post-war plans for Iraq. Sanchez refused.
“… it was clearly a pattern on the Secretary’s part, and now I recognized it,” Sanchez wrote, recalling an earlier incident with Rumsfeld. “Bring in the top-level leaders. Profess total ignorance. Ask why he had not been informed. Try to establish that others were screwing things up. Have witnesses in the room to verify his denials. Put it in writing. In essence, Rumsfeld was covering his rear. He was setting up his chain of denials should his actions ever be questioned. And worse yet, in my mind, he was attempting to level all the blame on his generals.”
McNamara, for all his mistakes, was a more decent man than that. May he finally rest in peace.
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© 2009 The Atlanta Journal-Constitution
149 comments Add your comment
George American
July 6th, 2009
12:02 pm
R.I.P Rummy. Like Sarah Palin, you are a great American.
sane jane
July 6th, 2009
12:06 pm
Looking forward to Secy. Rumsfeld’s mea culpa in 2033.
getalife
July 6th, 2009
12:08 pm
The Fog of War shows why we should never ever trust them especially in war.
They did it again in Iraq.
They never learn from their mistakes because they are not held accountable.
sane jane
July 6th, 2009
12:11 pm
“RIP Rummy”… lolz. Sometimes i fergit George A. is a troll.
No need to mock the red staters a la Redneck Convert, GA. Their sincere missives are funnier than your satire.
TnGelding
July 6th, 2009
12:12 pm
Amen!
And may all the friends and families of those needlessly sacrificed find peace, as well. Forgiveness heals the soul.
RealityKing
July 6th, 2009
12:18 pm
27 million free Iraqi’s prove this to be nothing but another progressively misleading attack piece, from atop a dead man’s grave. Shame on you Jay..
Normal
July 6th, 2009
12:20 pm
All I’m going to say about McNamara is this. During “Nam, I ran across
a large group of NVA crossing the Mekong River. We estimated at least battalion strength. We withdrew and called in a frag order. Three days later, the Air Force bombed the area…two days after the NVA were gone. ol’ Mac had to OK the order. This happened time and time again.
But at least he did admit his error. But I still think of the American lives lost by those NVA because we couldn’t take them out right then.
I truly hope it’s hell down there..just sayin’
RealityKing
July 6th, 2009
12:24 pm
A lot of Vietnam veterans will never forgive the ‘neoliberals’ of Vietnam. The true reason the Vietnamese people are still oppressed to this day..
josef nix
July 6th, 2009
12:27 pm
NORMAL:
“…I’ve been John O’Hara’d, McNamara’d, Andy Warhol won’t you please come home…”
Redneck Convert
July 6th, 2009
12:28 pm
Well, we could of won that Vietnam war if they’d of put a couple million more men in there. We’d still be fighting and winning over there, but I don’t know how much of the country would be left. To hear the generals tell it we’d just about wiped out the Commies as it was. Every time there was a battle somebody would get on TV and talk about how many thousands of VC were kilt. They were growing more but we were killing more than they could grow.
But no, they let the hippies get out of hand and cut and run. Like Sister Dusty always says, the cut and runners are pretty useless. This McNamara done his best, but the Left Wing Media was against him. They run him out of office just like they run Rumsfeld out of office. Now they’re ready to cut and run from Iraq too.
All I got to say is, what good’s a Army if you can’t use them in a war someplace? Have a good p.m. everybody.
sane jane
July 6th, 2009
12:29 pm
RealityKing toggling from “the smoking gun in the form of a mushroom cloud” (reason given in 2003) to “27MM free Iraqis” (justification offered today) proves that his grip on reality is tenuous at best.
Normal
July 6th, 2009
12:30 pm
REDNECK: We could use them right here, them yankees got some payback comin’…Burn Atlanta, huh…
Normal
July 6th, 2009
12:34 pm
Josef, Did you read GANDALFS 12:02 downstairs? It was his most intellegent one yet. You go, Gandalf…
josef nix
July 6th, 2009
12:35 pm
Redneck Convert
“This McNamara done his best, but the Left Wing Media was against him. They run him out of office just like they run Rumsfeld out of office. Now they’re ready to cut and run from Iraq too.”
“…been Ayn Randed, nearly branded a communist ’cause I’m left handed, that’s the hand to use, well never mind…”
josef nix
July 6th, 2009
12:40 pm
NORMAL–got that 12:02. He is beginning to make more sense, I’d say.
RealityKing
July 6th, 2009
12:40 pm
Image invading Iraq without attacking Bagdad…
More troops, fewer troops, different troops, redeployment all the same old Democratic talking points. Who are you kidding Jay? Democrats want to cut and run as fast as possible from Iraq, betraying the Iraqis who supported us and rewarding our enemies—exactly as they did to the South Vietnamese under Robert McNamara. Liberals spent the Vietnam War rooting for the enemy and clamoring for America’s defeat, a tradition Jay brought back right here on the AJC over Iraq.
Robert McNamara failed in Vietnam because he didn’t realize his greatest enemy was behind him.., the American liberal. Today’s progressive liberal.
RealityKing
July 6th, 2009
12:42 pm
In fact, during the Vietnam War, New York Times scion Arthur “Pinch” Sulzberger told his father that if an American soldier ran into a North Vietnamese soldier, he would prefer for the American to get shot. Now, as publisher of the Times, Pinch continues this tradition by doing all he can to help the enemy currently shooting at today’s American soldiers.
Normal
July 6th, 2009
12:45 pm
Robert McNamara failed in Vietnam because he didn’t realize his greatest enemy was behind him..,Yeah, Johnson…
—————-
Image invading Iraq without attacking Bagdad…Imagine not invading Iraq at all….
————–
Reality King…you’re a hoot…
getalife
July 6th, 2009
12:48 pm
It’s obvious rk never watched the fog of war.
Tell us rk, what were the North Vietnamese fighting for?
Normal
July 6th, 2009
12:53 pm
A chaplin asked a wounded soldier what had happened to him. The soldier said his sargeant told him that since the enemy was too hard to tell from the civilians, that you had to insult Uncle HO and if the guy got mad, you shot him. So when I was out in the bush, I saw a vietnamise walking down the trail. I shouted Uncle Ho bites big ones…he shouted back McNamara takes it in the ear…So, the Chaplin asked, how did you end up in the hospital? The soldier replied, when we stepped out to shake hands, we were hit by a truck….
GayGrayGeek
July 6th, 2009
12:54 pm
RK – Image invading Iraq without attacking Bagdad…
You mean, the way that Poppy and Darth Cheney did in 1991? THAT “image”?
RealityKing
July 6th, 2009
12:55 pm
In January 1973, the United States signed the Paris Peace accords, which would have ended the war with honor. Promising South Vietnam that we would resume bombing missions and provide military aid if the North attacked.
But as history now shows, it was Democrats that turned their backs on Vietnam, betraying our southern ally and trashing America’s image. Within a month of South Vietnam’s last appeal to a Democratic Congress, Saigon fell and southeast Asia became consumed in gruesome violence. Communist totalitarians swept through Laos, Cambodia and Vietnam. Massacres so vast that none other than then Sen. George “Peace” McGovern called for military intervention to stop a “clear case of genocide” in Cambodia.
Ever been to Vietnam Jay? You should go…, and finally take ownership of your precieved accomplishment in peace.
FinnMcCool
July 6th, 2009
12:58 pm
I blame W for Vietnam.
josef nix
July 6th, 2009
12:58 pm
getalife
“Tell us rk, what were the North Vietnamese fighting for?”
For pretty much the same thing our boys and the South Vietnamese were…somebody came, plucked them up, put a gun in their hands and said “kill.” What was their government, our government and the South Vietnamese government fighting for? It wasn’t clear then and it’s not clear now and as one more of those responsible goes to his reward without ever answering the question, we’ll probably never know. Let him go. I, for one, will not mourn his passing,
getalife
July 6th, 2009
12:59 pm
Don’t worry rk.
Mc did not know either until he went back and met their commander years later.
He had no idea what the enemy were fighting for.
USinUK
July 6th, 2009
1:01 pm
“If any question why we died/ Tell them, because our fathers lied” (Kipling)
McNamara wasn’t the first to lie – and he sure as hell wasn’t the last …
getalife
July 6th, 2009
1:01 pm
joseph,
He told Mc they were fighting for their Independence.
Copyleft
July 6th, 2009
1:07 pm
America had hoped that the lesson of Vietnam would not be forgotten–that not every war is automatically a glorious and just crusade.
Iraq proved that we have, indeed, forgotten that lesson. There’s no way to “win” a war you never should’ve started.
Normal
July 6th, 2009
1:07 pm
FINN, that’s not right…we would have lost much sooner, if “W” had been there…just sayin’
Normal
July 6th, 2009
1:10 pm
COPYLEFT: That’s because there is only one lousy paragraph in todays school books about a ten year war…how can you forget a lesson you can’t learn about?
USinUK
July 6th, 2009
1:10 pm
Normal and Finn … seriously … W really has been the Kiss of Death to every project he’s ever touched … if he actually HAD fought in Viet Nam, we would have lost a lot sooner …
Northern Songs, Ltd.
July 6th, 2009
1:12 pm
J Nix — If we’re quoting song lyrics:
I want to know who the men in the shadows are
I want to hear somebody asking them why
They can be counted on to tell us who our enemies are
But the’re never the ones to fight or to die
I Report :-) You Whine :-(
July 6th, 2009
1:13 pm
In fact, he has repeatedly attempted to dump the responsibility for what happened in Iraq onto others.
Uh, Rumsfeld’s war was victorious.
duh
FinnMcCool
July 6th, 2009
1:17 pm
I guess at least you can say Rumsfeld wasn’t behind the bribes which paid off the Sunnis to get them to stop shooting Americans (the so-called Surge).
Joey
July 6th, 2009
1:18 pm
If only Rumsfeld had asked Jay what he should do. But alas he did not, and must suffer the consequences.
Of course, this proved helpful to Jay. He gets to write 100 or so commentaries condemning Rumsfeld and Bush and Cheney and explaining exactly what they should have done.
Those that can do. Those that cannot ……..
getalife
July 6th, 2009
1:18 pm
Andy,
Once again, when we leave, Iraq has won their Indpendence like the Noth Vietnam.
david wayne osedach
July 6th, 2009
1:18 pm
We learn from his mistakes. No more Vietnams. Only Afghanistan…
FinnMcCool
July 6th, 2009
1:20 pm
Schumer: With Franken Seated No Need To Compromise On Public Option
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/07/06/schumer-with-franken-seat_n_226267.html
Git er done Chucky!
socialism is da BOMB
July 6th, 2009
1:21 pm
I had a cousin(killed) & uncle that served in vietnam. My uncle told me later when I was older,that if the Government had let the military WIN the war, they would have saved lives and time. I agree,we should allow the Government to Govern and let the military do what they are trained to do. Don’t put our brave,best of the best in harms way unless we want them to win.
DoggoneGA
July 6th, 2009
1:21 pm
“Uh, Rumsfeld’s war was victorious”
Oh sure…that’s why we’re still there, what is it now? 5 years after “mission accomplished”?
USinUK
July 6th, 2009
1:23 pm
Joey –
“If only Rumsfeld had asked Jay what he should do. But alas he did not, and must suffer the consequences.”
me, I would have been happy if Rumsfeld had just done what his other generals told him to do … MORE TROOPS at the beginning rather than try to do this on the cheap
or, basically, employ what Colin Powell called Overwhelming Force.
sorry, but Jay isn’t the only person saying that they were inept – folks in the military were saying it, too…
USinUK
July 6th, 2009
1:24 pm
… and with that, I’m outta here …
ya’ll have a good evening!
josef nix
July 6th, 2009
1:25 pm
I am chided in these parts for my insistence on trying to maintain a sense of civility and balance. Though I am not a veteran of the battlefield in Southeast Asia, my number came up in the last lottery and the “war ended” for us before the authorities of the state needed my body. I would not have gone. I would have gone to Canada “in a croker sack if that’s what it takes” under orders from my big brother who did go. Anyone who came through that time period knows how polarized our society became, how close we came to civil war, and what that did to a generation.
I was a peacenik, long hair and all that. When I went to register for a pow bracelet, the man behind the counter did not want to let me. What did I want it for? When I wore the bracelet to the rallies, the people there tried to make me take it off. A simple thing, really in the cosmic scheme of things, totally insignificant. But it told me a lot about the slavish adherence to the party line of whichever side. I do remember and the ghost raises its ugly head daily on this blog and all across our nation.
Like many, if not most, of us who went through that period, we try not to dwell there. But then another of the demons leaves this pale and we say rest in peace. No, no rest. For as long as there are those whose lives were torn asunder by his actions still alive, may he never know a moment’s peace.
DoggoneGA
July 6th, 2009
1:26 pm
“Don’t put our brave,best of the best in harms way unless we want them to win.”
Then why are we STILL in Iraq? Haven’t we already “won” that war? Remember “mission accomplished”?
josef nix
July 6th, 2009
1:29 pm
Northern Songs, Ltd.
Where is that from?
josef nix
July 6th, 2009
1:29 pm
copyleft–and what, pray tell, would that lesson be?
AmVet
July 6th, 2009
1:31 pm
One of the many great crimes by BushCo.
Instead of learning from that bungle in the jungle, they spit on all of the lessons (and needless deaths) they should have learned and played utterly stupid.
And gawd, did they play stupid well!
And these sycophants and willing dupes still shuck and grin for Rummie, Karly, Dickie and the Hero of the Texas ANG.
Truly amazing…
Bosch
July 6th, 2009
1:43 pm
“To his credit, he had long ago realized the errors of judgment, analysis and morality that contributed to U.S. failure in Vietnam, and he acknowledged them publicly. Watching him struggle with his legacy in the 2003 documentary “Fog of War” was profoundly excruciating, and something that no student of power or its personal toll should miss. A lot of Vietnam veterans will never forgive McNamara, and from their point of view I guess I can understand that. But he was at least willing to acknowledge his errors, and the price they exacted from others.”
Maybe so Jay, but it’s kind of hard to forgive someone (McNamara or Rumsfeld) when your dead (soldiers).
Bosch
July 6th, 2009
1:48 pm
Ok, and I upgraded to Internet Explorer 8 today and I can see the picture of Rummie, but not McNamara AND I can not get the Find a Five game.
Help.
Normal
July 6th, 2009
1:52 pm
I sit here reading everybody’s posts and some are truly remarkable, but as I sit here images re-emerge and I see my friend and shipmates…fighting..dying..and I know deep in my soul that we did no more and no worse than our fathers. America honored our fathers. America did not honor us. We weren’t fighting a war. We weren’t fighting for our country. We were fighting for another country…then and now. War was not declared for us, therefore we we not honorable, in our eyes and all the others. We died and we killed for no reason, none at all, hindsight tells us. we thought we were fighting against Commie aggression, but that was a myth…We think now that we are fighting terrorist aggression, but will hindsight prove that a myth too? I don’t know. I had my war and I want no other. I want no other man on this earth to have to face that reality ever. Only men who have never been to war want to start one. Listen to me. There is no glory in war. War sucks.
AmVet
July 6th, 2009
1:53 pm
Bosch, ditch that POS IE!
Mozilla Firefox is the best way to go.
Much more customizable. (thousands of plug ins)
MUCH more secure.
Leaner, meaner and faster.
And does NOT use active x controls!
Mike "Hussein" Smith
July 6th, 2009
1:54 pm
Actually it’s now more than 6 years since “Mission accomplished.” That took place in may ‘03.
RealityKing
July 6th, 2009
1:55 pm
Copyleft wants for Iraqi’s what neoliberals delivered to the South Vietnamese.., defeat for political reasons.
Bosch
July 6th, 2009
2:00 pm
AmVet –
Got cha! Thanks.
RealityKing
July 6th, 2009
2:01 pm
The Vietnam lesson: To achieve victory America must listen to the commanders in the field rather than the self absorbed politcians in Washington. Only Obama can screw that up now…
Joey
July 6th, 2009
2:05 pm
USinUK;
I never wrote or implied that Jay was alone.
Doesn’t Jay’s absolute certainty that he knows exactly what should have happened; exactly what the mistakes were; exactly the moves that should be made; doesn’t that bother you just a little?
getalife
July 6th, 2009
2:07 pm
Bosch,
Check your addons :
Name Shockwave Flash Object
Version 10.0.22.87
Bosch
July 6th, 2009
2:17 pm
Ok, all is well – thanks getalife and AmVet.
Mr. Snarky
July 6th, 2009
2:25 pm
I’m just glad Rummy’s not hanging around like Cheney. Fortunately we have Bob Gates to make Rumsfeld look like the incompetent jerk that he is.
DB, Gwinnettian
July 6th, 2009
2:27 pm
As to McNamara’s passing–I don’t believe that a loving God puts us on this Earth to live this life only to be condemned to an eternity of damnation. I really don’t.
But when you consider some people’s mistakes, I can see the appeal in such a belief system.
Regarding RealityKing’s business @ 12.55: I got yer “betrayal” right here.
Scooter
July 6th, 2009
2:32 pm
I still can’t the sight Hanoi Jane much less McNamara.Don’t get me started on Rummie!
TW
July 6th, 2009
2:34 pm
josef nix
July 6th, 2009
1:25 pm
Thank you for your post – very well said. I appreciate your honesty. And I agree – no peace for those who’ve treated our military as though they plastic, as though they came in bags of fifty from the toy store. This ’salvage your legacy’ only serves to stamp said indivials as the steamy pile they were.
I Report :-) You Whine :-(
July 6th, 2009
2:36 pm
You surrender monkey liberals wouldn’t know what victory was if you fell over it.
Mr. Snarky
July 6th, 2009
2:42 pm
Whiner…you conservatives wouldn’t know the truth if it bit you in your dented forehead. Putting a victory sign up for a rally does not mean you actually won. It means you put a sign up. Just keep lowering the bar, though, if it works for you.
Scooter
July 6th, 2009
2:44 pm
You gota love the Whiner’s posts. Glad you are back dude!
Dusty
July 6th, 2009
2:45 pm
Well, RedNeck FINALLY got something right. Cut’n'runners are not good for much. This is a blog led by one and we got the rest whooping it up as great..
War is hell and most people know that. Those that served in one know it even better. But to dismiss war as an absolute evil declares our own revolution for freedom an error or misjudgement simply because it was a WAR. Therefore you declare that freedom is not a worthy goal for which to fight.
But wars are directed by humans and there is no perfect war. It is only a fight that must be for the right goals and one to win. What kind of people are we to let any evil run amuck without fighting against it? Genocide, repression, torture…evil is not something to overlook.
I am sad for Viet Nam vets who believe no one believed in them. Those people standing and thinking at the Viet Nam Memorial; are not decrying the war. They are crying for the loss of lives of Americans who would fight for that which they believed was right. Freedom from communism is an ardent wish by those who have lived it. The Russians have moved away from it, after holiding it as a glorious form of government. It is not a government desired by those so ruled.
Some today are holding on to the nefarious tradition of belittling the military during war time. I hear the same stuff day after day followed with the old “but but I respect the military!” NO YOU DON’T.. You are making them feel like dirt.
Stop making fun of Rumsfeld, a veteran and a man who led if not what WE consider perfect. Quit mewling over McNamara. He thought he made mistakes. Don’t we all.
Support our troops NOW, not just when you feel it sounds OK. Act like an American.
I Report :-) You Whine :-(
July 6th, 2009
2:55 pm
Usually, regulators allow utilities to recoup the cost of building power plants or buying more power to meet customer demand. Recently, the Missouri Public Service Commission began allowing some utilities to pass along to customers the cost of programs that reduce demand for electricity.
Oh yeah, so now it costs money to turn the air conditioner off.
Liberals and logic, two ships passing in the night.
eewww
getalife
July 6th, 2009
2:55 pm
I guess dusty is talking to the cons that want our Commander in Chief to fail in a time of war.
Copyleft
July 6th, 2009
2:55 pm
Agreed, Dusty. Support our troops… by not wasting their lives on wars of choice, rather than necessity.
Josef: The lesson is that there are justified wars, and wars that are not justified… and that blindly supporting any and every military mission is the same as blindly supporting anything else that comes out of Washington D.C.–a really stupid idea.
RealityKing and others have commented about “letting the soldiers do their JOBS.” Their JOB is to carry out the orders of the elected, civilian leaders. And OUR job is to know what we’re sending them into, and why… and to put a stop to it if it’s not absolutely necessary.
That’s what makes our country a republic and not a junta.
DoggoneGA
July 6th, 2009
2:55 pm
“The Vietnam lesson: To achieve victory America must listen to the commanders in the field rather than the self absorbed politcians in Washington”
The REAL lesson of Vietnam is: don’t get involved in a war that isn’t yours and that you DON’T BELONG IN, in the first place.
Wyld Byll Hyltnyr
July 6th, 2009
2:57 pm
G-d bless Rummy. He is a true American patriot who has given so much to this country. Notwithstanding his selfless service to the nation, it is now apparent that he did not get the job done in Iraq. Thank the Lord, we had a man of courage and vision in the White House, President Bush who realized that a change had to be made. Even though it must have been personally difficult, President Bush replaced Rummy and had the courage and vision to win the war through the surge. Needless to say, Obumbler had neither the courage nor vision and had the nation followed Obumbler’s flawed advice the resultant killing fields would have made post-Vietnam Cambodia look like a children’s party at Neverland Ranch. G-d blee President Bush for his vision, courage, and leadership.
As to you Jay, Rummy had to make real time decisions against a treacherous enemy that truly hates America and, after doing battle with Pelosi and reid, he had to confront the Islamo-terrorists in Iraq and Afghanistan. Condering that Jay is unable to figue out how to make a newspaper profitable, a far easier task than waging war, one might wonder how he feels so confident as to criticize Rummy in his more difficult endeavor.
Normal
July 6th, 2009
3:00 pm
Dusty, I will tell you that I believe that every name on that wall was a sacrifice to the American God of Economics and nothing more. A terrible loss of life for no cause and no reason. We weren’t fighting because we believed in something, we were fighting to believe in something, anything. But mostly we just felt raped.
If the Administration of the time, i.e. Johnson/McNamare and Nixon/whoever had really wanted us to win, we would have been given the means and with our hands untied. Bush/Rumsfield…same thing…
Didn’t listen to General Powell and screwed up.
When I’m at the Wall, I’m not crying for fallen comrades…I’m crying for the waste, the terrible, senseless waste.
Normal
July 6th, 2009
3:01 pm
Wyld Byll…Bless your heart, no really…
Joey
July 6th, 2009
3:08 pm
When we are listing the Viet Nam era presidents, let’s not forget John Kennedy. Maybe he is the original neo-liberal that Jay referenced.
AmVet
July 6th, 2009
3:09 pm
Wait just a cotton pickin’ minute Andy!
I do know what victory is!
Victory is the cons winning 4 out of 67 national races in 2006 and 2008.
Yep, from sea to shining sea, four wins and 63 losses.
Now THAT is a BIG time victory for the United States of America!
Ain’t being a conned great?
Joey
July 6th, 2009
3:09 pm
For Viet Nam Kennedy had the Bush role and Nixon had the Obama role.
Mr. Snarky
July 6th, 2009
3:11 pm
War is hell!…so let’s rationalize it.
getalife
July 6th, 2009
3:16 pm
Sarah Palin is a coward and a bully. What kind of politician attacks an ordinary American on the Fourth of “July for speaking her mind? What’s wrong with her? The First Amendment was designed to protect people like me from the likes of people like her. Our American Revolution got rid of kings. And queens, too. Am I jacked-up? You betcha. Sarah Palin, if you have a problem with me, then sue me.
You gotta love this woman.” A blogger for the HP.
I tweeted Sarah:
Will you sue me if I called you a quitter?
Northern Songs, Ltd.
July 6th, 2009
3:27 pm
mr nix: it’s jackson browne’s “lives in the balance”
AmVet
July 6th, 2009
3:28 pm
I still believe this issue – Viet F&cking Nam – is what separates most Americans. To this day.
There were/are those who thought it was hunky-dory, we were there for the right reasons and we should have “won” it.
Then there were the rest of America who saw it for the meat-grinding, completely useless cluster f that it was. A senseless slaughter.
And it had nothing to do with Democrats or Republicans.
It had everything to do with vision, morality and standing up to needless and murderous mayhem of the chest pounders/chickenhawks and the corporatists who obscenely profit from the war machine. Or not.
And sadly, in WAY too many cases, those very same members of the 101st Chairborne, and/or their even more illucid, illiterate progeny, that were on the wrong side of that fiasco then, were/are on the wrong side of Bush’s even more idiotic fiasco.
And I am very hard pressed to forgive the deadly screw ups who lied to get these Modern Crusades…
Dusty
July 6th, 2009
3:30 pm
getalife,
I don’t know what you ae talking about. Conservatives support our Commander in chief. I haven’t heard any “recalls” etc except from liberals when Bush was commander-in-chief.
Copyleft,
We elect people to run this country. No mob rule. They make decisions influenced by us, the voters. But THEY make the decisions. If they are bad enough or illegal enough, as lying to a court, then they are made to leave. Write or talk to those you elected. Squawking and complaining does little more than divide and demoralize the country. During wartime, it demoralizes the troops. See how ‘Nam vets still feel..
DoggoneGa.
We don’t always get to PICK our wars. Sometimes we can decide but as in Iraq when the Presodent and Congress voted to approve such action. we CHOSE by our representatives to fight, not run.
NORMAL,
I hope you will be able to recover from the effects of Viet Nam one of these days. I disagree about the God of Economics. Don’t see how economics was enhanced by that war.
Other vets have served and sorrowed and moved on. I cannot decide about ALL wars because of Viet Nam but you were there. I was not. That is a big difference.
AmVet
July 6th, 2009
3:31 pm
Jackson Browne’s Lives in the Balance is just a superb, superb song. Like much of the rest of his catalog…
Brad Steel
July 6th, 2009
3:32 pm
Don’t see Rummy showing the humility and refreshing honesty that McNamara did. Rummy is too arrogant and narcissistic to admit that the Iraq war was one huge mistake.
Rummy will parley his indignant hubris into the same crazy-paranoid-coot that Cheney has become. It will be interesting to see who becomes the most grizzled and bitter about the huge mistakes that history will allot them.
As the GOP Churns
July 6th, 2009
3:34 pm
Well, if there were anything good to be said about Rumsfeld, I would have already said it. Same goes for his cohort, Cheney.
Normal
July 6th, 2009
3:36 pm
Dusty, Dow Chemical, General Dynamics, Monsano, General Motors, Boeing,
Armilite, just to name a few…
eagle scout
July 6th, 2009
3:40 pm
I don’t know where you all were in 1966, but this young lad (me) all of 21 years was a young warrant officer serving with the 1st cav (air mobil) 229th air assault battalion out of Pleiku VN. I used to smoke a pack of luckies just going through the pre-flight check list.
When the day comes, and the doctor says I got bad news for you…..I’ll blame that idiot McNamara!
I’ll leave all the experts on war and peace such as Dusty, reality king and others to debate the finer points of fighting senseless wars.
DoggoneGA
July 6th, 2009
3:42 pm
“We don’t always get to PICK our wars. Sometimes we can decide but as in Iraq when the Presodent and Congress voted to approve such action. we CHOSE by our representatives to fight, not run”
We PICKED Vietnam…and Bush PICKED Iraq. You can spout all you want about Congress passing that resolution. I can spout too. I *knew*, I KNEW Bush would abuse that authorization and if I had had the power I would have impeached every Representative and every Senator who voted for it.
Here’s the relevent authorization: ” (a) Authorization.–The President is authorized to use the Armed Forces of the United States as he determines to be necessary and appropriate in order to”
No matter how much you want it to be a “Congressional” war…it was Bush’s war and no one elses. What part of “AS HE DETERMINES TO BE NECESSARY AND APPROPRIATE” don’t you understand? HE chose to go to war. It is HIS war. He based it on lies and he got untold numbers (because they didn’t even bother to count them) Iraqi civilians killed and 4000+ and counting of OUR SOLDIERS killed in a war against a country that never harmed us and was no threat to us.
getalife
July 6th, 2009
3:44 pm
Your leader rush sprewed it dusty and you know it.
cons agree with him.
Dusty
July 6th, 2009
3:46 pm
AmVet,
Life in America is not going to hell in a handbasket just because of the Viet Nam War and thereafter.
Maybe you think so but I do not.
I don’t like most of Obama’s policies, ’specially economics. But he has not cut’n'run in Iraq or Afghanistan so I .wait and hope for the best for our military and our country.
You, on the other hand, have vilified Bush from day one and still do. It does not make Bush look bad. Just you, a sorehead with a long festering grudge. That is what you show us almost every day, a bitter old man making insults.
Stick with the music comments. They sound a little better.
Joey
July 6th, 2009
3:46 pm
As I recall the Viet Nam Conflict lasted about 15 years. Many people changed their minds about it in those years. Many people grew up and formed their first opinion about it.
Not so cut and dried, at least as I see those years.
Dusty
July 6th, 2009
3:47 pm
getalife,
I don’t listen to rush. Hardly ever turn on the radio. You are wrong AGAIN.
DB, Gwinnettian
July 6th, 2009
3:52 pm
he got untold numbers (because they didn’t even bother to count them) Iraqi civilians killed
We don’t, but here’s a website that does try to account for every documented instance of such a death.
While we occasionally continue to hear in the mainstream press about this bomb or that small-arms attack now and then taking innocent lives, reviewing the details (like “bomb in toy”) in list after list is sobering stuff.
getalife
July 6th, 2009
3:53 pm
No, rush is wrong.
Call his show and tell him to support the troops and stop saying he wants them to fail.
He’s your leader.
I Report :-) You Whine :-(
July 6th, 2009
3:54 pm
PRINCETON, NJ — Despite the results of the 2008 presidential election, Americans, by a 2-to-1 margin, say their political views in recent years have become more conservative rather than more liberal, 39% to 18%, with 42% saying they have not changed. While independents and Democrats most often say their views haven’t changed, more members of all three major partisan groups indicate that their views have shifted to the right rather than to the left.-Gallup
Seeing goony liberalism in action will do that for ya.
hehehehe, keep up the good work, Obozo.
Bud Wiser
July 6th, 2009
3:55 pm
All McNamara did was carry out the first war to be managed by the White House instead of the military, a war that was started by your boy JFK, I might add, that killed seven of my high school mates that are enshrined forever on the Vietnam Memorial.
And he managed it poorly.
Also, the Democrats set the trend of being war mongrels by their inherent mistrust and hatred of the military, and set the precedent of managing battle for political expediency.
Maybe JFK was upset that baby brother Bobby was riding the sheets with his wife, or so the story goes that is just now coming out 50+ years later. Word is he lost his head over it…
And today the NY Times editorial tells everyone not to eat cookie dough? You people think that conservatives are exaggerating when we gripe about the way the left tries to motor deeper and deeper into everyone’s lives, and here the principal mouthpiece is trying to get into everyone’s momma’s kitchen now and tell us what we should and should not eat? I’d say that makes the point pretty well that the self assumed privileged crowd now feels free to tell the world how to live, how to eat, what car to drive, how much money to save, how much money to spend, how to handle our health care because the rest of us are too ignorant, blah blah blah.
Go chase that cracker, 94%ers, on your way to the Michael Jackson memorial, or on your trip to Target to find the ‘just right’ picture of Jackson to put on the wall next to JFK, RFK, MLK, and now, Steve McNair.
DoggoneGA
July 6th, 2009
3:56 pm
“in list after list is sobering stuff”
Yes it is…and I can’t bear to look at that site. It just makes me too angry, at Bush, AND at that Congress. I *never* figured out why, if *I* knew he would abuse that authorization that those (mostly) college educated, politically savvy, supposedly INTELLIGENT people couldn’t figure it out.
Conservatism leads to Paranoia
July 6th, 2009
4:01 pm
Bud Wiser you don’t even try to hide your bigotry do you. Do you blog with a pillow case over your head? You are a sick man. Who would want to motor deeo into your life? You must be kidding.
Normal
July 6th, 2009
4:02 pm
BUD: If JFK had remained alive, the only people we would have had in Viet Nam, would have been Spec Op Groups. There would have been no “Tonkin Gulf Incident” to legitimize troop expansion.
———-
Another thing, Jack was supposedly between the sheets with Marilyn Monroe, Given the choice, let Bobby have Jackie…Just sayin’
AmVet
July 6th, 2009
4:02 pm
Brad at 3:32, perfect.
As horrific as McNamara was, he was awarded the Legion of Merit for meritorious service in WWII. DickHead “I had priorities other than military service” Cheney couldn’t carry his jockstrap. But was a huge inspiration for all the other chickenhearted, no doubt.
Dusty, you may be surprised, I agree with you. (And as always thanks for speaking for me! Yutz.)
This greatest nation in the history of mankind is not going to hell in a handbasket.
Even though 90% of Americans think it is in decline, I’m probably in the 10% who disagrees.
But primary because countless Americans are fighting everyday to keep you and your clown heroes and Republican wastoids from utterly shiiting the red, white and blue bed.
You neo-conned had your time, and it has come and gone. Deal with it…
AmVet
July 6th, 2009
4:09 pm
Conservatism leads to Paranoia, I scroll past that racial bigotry without fail.
But I love his obsession with that 94% figure.
As in 63 out of 67.
Ironically myopic…