In Iraq, Americans pull back and Iraqis celebrate

Yesterday, four U.S. troops were killed in an attack in Baghdad; their names have not yet been released.

Today, however, their comrades have all but withdrawn from Iraqi cities, leaving them to be patrolled by Iraqi forces under an agreement signed months ago by American and Iraqi officials. This has been proclaimed “National Sovereignty Day,” a holiday to celebrate the great Iraqi victory. Iraqi President Jalal Talabani, a Kurd, acknowledged in a speech that the day could not have happened without the help of the United States.

“While we celebrate this day, we express our thanks and gratitude to our friends in the coalition forces who faced risks and responsibilities and sustained casualties and damage while helping Iraq to get rid from the ugliest dictatorship and during the joint effort to impose security and stability,” Talabani said.

But Iraqi President Prime Minister Nouri al-Maliki, in a speech at a military parade deep inside the secure Green Zone, claimed that “the national united government succeeded in putting down the sectarian war that was threatening the unity and the sovereignty of Iraq.” According to the New York Times, Maliki “made no mention of the American military’s involvement in fighting here for the last six years.”

The U.S. troops still in Iraq — at last count roughly 130,000 — will continue to engage in combat. The four dead Monday will not be the last to give their lives. The deadline for withdrawal of American combat forces is Aug. 31, 2010, with total withdrawal set for Dec. 31, 2011.

“As the Iraqis stand up, we will stand down,” President Bush used to say. That seems a long time ago. But it’s time, past time, for the promise in those words to finally be realized.

149 comments Add your comment

Peadawg

June 30th, 2009
8:05 am

I Report :-) You Whine :-(

June 30th, 2009
8:07 am

Gosh, I wonder if a thoroughly defeated al Qaeda will take advantage of this milestone to try and discredit it.

And how much help will they get with their efforts from the state run US media?

in a speech at a military parade deep inside the secure Green Zone

Sneering at an ally, bookman?

DB, Gwinnettian

June 30th, 2009
8:11 am

Iraqi President Jalal Talabani

Iraqi President Nouri al-Maliki

umm…

Paul

June 30th, 2009
8:14 am

Good news. For those who want to delay (even though we have an agreement) – it’s similar to the F22 thread. A few billion will give only, what, another half dozen? Another six months or a year extension will give us what in the way of added security (not to mention more American deaths).

For those who take the position this is what Pres Obama wanted all along – nonsense. He always spoke of a ‘residual’ force, in the neighborhood of 30,000 troops. At least. His Secretary of State spoke of missions to be accomplished (similar to those performed by Pres Obama’s residual force) and those numbers were estimated in excess of 70,000.

So will Pres Obama or his advisors discuss what’s changed that we don’t need tens of thousands of troops remaining past 2011? Will he discuss how the missions of the residual force are no longer a concern? Nope. Will Obama supporters act as if this was the plan all along? Of course!

Paul

June 30th, 2009
8:16 am

Peadawg

Fourth! And four’s a higher number than one, so there!

FinnMcCool

June 30th, 2009
8:16 am

Yeah, we won the war! Conservatives won’t want to hear we won on Obama’s watch. Those Conservative girly men will not be happy.

FinnMcCool

June 30th, 2009
8:17 am

From the Wall Street Journal:
Wall Street Logs Best Quarter Since Credit Crisis Erupted
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB124631742807170803.html#mod=todays_us_nonsub_money_and_investing

“ouch!” say the gloom and doom Republican losers.

TnGelding

June 30th, 2009
8:17 am

Let’s all sincerely wish them well and hope they don’t squander what has been accomplished with great sacrifice of American blood and treasure. May the troops that remain conduct themselves with honor and dignity and come home safely soon.

Copyleft

June 30th, 2009
8:17 am

Gee, the idea of letting the Iraqis run their own country seems to be going over really well.

Too bad we couldn’t have thought of it six years sooner….

TnGelding

June 30th, 2009
8:20 am

Paul

June 30th, 2009
8:16 am

Would you believe I missed Peadawg because of the non-entry?

Paul

June 30th, 2009
8:20 am

DB, Gwinnettian

Talabani’s the Pres, al-Maliki’s the Prime Minister.

Most Americans won’t know, those here likely translate it as “one of the top dudes of the Iraqi government.” Main point I took from it is the Kurd gives credit to the Americans. The Shiite plays for hometown political advantage.

TnGelding

June 30th, 2009
8:21 am

FinnMcCool

June 30th, 2009
8:22 am

TnGelding,
That’s asking a little much isn’t it? It will take another iron-handed leader to keep them from killing each other and so that will lead to another dictator.

Splitting up the country (don’t forget, it was Western powers that drew the original national boundaries of much of the Middle East early last century) is the only way to peace without US policeing the country indefinately.

Peadawg

June 30th, 2009
8:22 am

Let’s just hope they don’t screw it up over there!

Paul

June 30th, 2009
8:24 am

TNGelding

I’d believe most anything. I’m a trusting kind of guy –

FinnMcCool

How do you define ‘won’?

Copyleft

The thought was there but I don’t think the conditions were there six years ago. Heck, it was only two years ago, according to the party now in power, that the war was lost. Now it’s won? And even though Pres Obama is sitting in the White House, he’s done nothing different in Iraq than continue the policies of his predecessor.

AmVet

June 30th, 2009
8:24 am

Yes, a sad day for the chickenhawks.

Invade Iran!

Gandalf, the White! (!)

June 30th, 2009
8:26 am

Copyleft: I wish you would choose to quit make silly comments! Just saying what an idiot you are.

FinnMcCool

June 30th, 2009
8:27 am

Paul, I’m trying to needle the folks who thought there was actually anything to “win” by invading Iraq in the first place.

More on the lines in the sand drawn up by Britain and France that now cosntitutes the boundaries of Iraq and much of the Middle EAst:

During World War I the British and French divided Western Asia in the Sykes-Picot Agreement. The Treaty of Sèvres, which was ratified in the Treaty of Lausanne, led to the advent of modern Western Asia and Republic of Turkey. The League of Nations granted France mandates over Syria and Lebanon and granted the United Kingdom mandates over Iraq and Palestine (which then consisted of two autonomous regions: Palestine and Transjordan). Parts of the Ottoman Empire on the Arabian Peninsula became parts of what are today Saudi Arabia and Yemen.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iraq

TnGelding

June 30th, 2009
8:28 am

FinnMcCool

June 30th, 2009
8:22 am

I think you, I and Biden are the only ones that support that solution.

Paul

June 30th, 2009
8:24 am

Bush had basically already accepted and implemented Obama’s position.

DB, Gwinnettian

June 30th, 2009
8:30 am

Talabani’s the Pres, al-Maliki’s the Prime Minister.

well yeah, I pretty much I knew, although I tend to forget who’s who sometimes. I had to look it up to be sure.

Mostly I was being a nudge to Jay. I kid because I love.

Curious Observer

June 30th, 2009
8:35 am

Yes, we have succeeded by replacing one dictatorship posing as a democracy with another dictatorship posing as a democracy. And what does al Malaki do? He spits in our eyes, vaguely alluding to how our presence has “humiliated” Iraqis. This sock-puppet of a political coalition of Shiites would be long dead by now without the presence of American troops to prop him up. And what will we get in return for the tremendous sacrifice of blood and treasure we provided him in order to give this ingrate the opportunity to insult us? An eventual Iraqi-Iranian alliance that will prove to be yet another enemy of the West.

Do not be fooled by the masquerade of voting booths and ink-stained thumbs. Try to remember that Saddam governed with “elected” representatives too. Iraq has no respect for what we consider as democracy. We have gained nothing–not even a few barrels of oil–in exchange for more than 4,000 lives, tens of thousands of maimed servicemen, and tons of hundred dollar bills shipped in on pallets. The latest insult by al Malaki ought to drive that truth home.

Paul

June 30th, 2009
8:36 am

Finn McCool

And I’m trying to needle the folks who needle the folks!

TNGelding

[[Bush had basically already accepted and implemented Obama’s position.]]

Spinnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnn

:-)

Which position was that? Pre-surge? Which he opposed? So Sen Reid’s pronouncement would likely have come to pass?

Or the position of an accelerated withdrawal, which Pres Bush did resist, but that was more over a timetable and criteria than over concept.

IF the surge had not happened and the country had collapsed into anarchy and butchery, and if American forces were still there in January and Pres Obama had completed a pullout, it would have been described as ‘Bush’s fault – just getting out.” But since conditions are okay (not to put too fine a point on it) it’s now “Obama’s plan.”

Dang, I love American domestic politics.

Seek and ye shall Find

June 30th, 2009
8:39 am

The Republicans have given us so many reasons for invading Iraq over the years that it can be best summed up as “We did it to ensure the survival of the universe” or something as equally absurd. I personally believe that the best reason for invading Iraq was to undo what we created in the first place.

Normal

June 30th, 2009
8:39 am

This is a start, but I will not be satisfied until our boys and girls are home where they belong. I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again, our presence there only delays the inevitable. We must get completely out and let the Iraqi’s deal with it.
————–
GANDALF:
wish you would choose to quit make silly comments!
———
Back at cha…Just sayin’…

Copyleft

June 30th, 2009
8:46 am

Paul: I’m not declaring victory. The only thing I care about is getting our troops OUT of Iraq ASAP.

It’s not possible to “win” an unjust war, no matter who’s in the Oval Office. America lost this the day we invaded. The fact that we waited to withdraw peacefully is just as shameful as withdrawing sooner and witnessing the collapse would’ve been.

Iraq remains a mistake and a blot on America’s history. No change there.

Paul

June 30th, 2009
8:46 am

Seek

[[I personally believe that the best reason for invading Iraq was to undo what we created in the first place.]]

What did ‘we’ create in ‘the first place’?

Normal

[[This is a start, but I will not be satisfied until our boys and girls are home where they belong. I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again, our presence there only delays the inevitable. We must get completely out and let the Iraqi’s deal with it.]]

Lessee, one down…. about 129 countries to go….

Wyld Byll Hyltnyr

June 30th, 2009
8:49 am

Jay, try to belittle it as you might, there is not one Iraqi who says, “Things were better off under Saddam, I wish we could go back.

Never before in the history of mankind, has one nation, the United States, undertaken and completed such a noble endeavor; to sacrifice its youth and treasure to free another nation from the bonds of tyranny. Well done US military, well done.

While the stooge, President Obumbler, opposed the winning card, the surge, he now awkwardly contorts to try to take credit for progress earned by the courage of our soldiers and, yes, President Bush.

G-d bless President Bush for his vision and courage in leading our nation to this great victory which has, at once crushed the loathsome Al Qaedi and founded a flourishing democracry in the Arab middle east. Let’s hope Obumbler does not screww the pooch and let Al Qaedi back in the game or our Iraqi allies fail.

Thank you President Bush and Vice President Cheney, the nation misses your intellect, wisdom, and sage leadership.

Paul

June 30th, 2009
8:52 am

Copyleft

[[It’s not possible to “win” an unjust war, no matter who’s in the Oval Office. ]]

Sure it is! Really! Of course, it depends upon how one defines ‘unjust’ as one person’s unjust is another person’s justice.

I guess it depends upon how we define ‘war’, too. Cause now we’ve come up with “peacekeeping operation’ and ‘humanitarian mission’ and all sorts of phrases. But they all use the American military carrying guns with air cover and such.

So I’m sure you can come up with just one or two examples of American military forces being used to correct something or respond to something we didn’t like. But that the other side thought was okay. Examples in which we…. won!

It seems Iraq engenders a bit of hyperbole. Understandable. I will offer that there are plenty of Americans to the opposite end of the left of the spectrum who say, if we knew then what we know now, we never would’ve gone in. But very, very few of those opposed at the outset (our Pres is one) took that position. I’ll say most of the opposition ginned up after the situation there went south and casualties rose. Then it became an American political game.

pat

June 30th, 2009
8:53 am

Good now we can concentrate on Afghanistan. Oh wait, didn’t obama say he wanted to negotiate with the taliban? Let me check the news on how that’s going….Oooooo, not good.
I disagreed with the Iraq war as much as any democrat, but you do realize that there was never an intention to stay there indefinitely? Right? Please tell me you knew that?

@@

June 30th, 2009
8:54 am

HAPPY BIRTHDAY THOMAS AND RW (THE ORIGINAL)!!!!!!!!!!

Normal

June 30th, 2009
8:54 am

PAUL: Lessee, one down…. about 129 countries to go….
—————-
Exactly! Ron Paul said, if he were President, he would bring them all home from Germany, Korea, Japan…everywhere…I’m all for that.

Normal

June 30th, 2009
8:55 am

Thank you President Bush and Vice President Cheney, the nation misses your intellect, wisdom, and sage leadership.
—————
WYLD: Sarcasm, right?

Normal

June 30th, 2009
8:59 am

PAT: but you do realize that there was never an intention to stay there indefinitely? Right? Please tell me you knew that?
—-
At least that was what they told us, then they started building forts with swimming pools that were costing us billions of dollars…Just sayin’ you don’t put a pool in your back yard, if you’re planning to move…know what I mean?

Wyld Byll Hyltnyr

June 30th, 2009
8:59 am

Normal June 30th, 2009

Sarcasm, no. Intellect, wisdom, historical perspective, and pride. Compared to much of history, the Iraq campaign has been a noble enterprise and a fabulous sucess. It is, above all, a great shame that the BDS addled, self-loathing among us cannot celebrate our nation’s great victory.

Seek and ye shall Find

June 30th, 2009
9:00 am

Paul,

“We” know the story of Saddam and Gomorrah and how the US helped Saddam by providing him with weapons and how we turned the other way when he turned his weapons on his own people, blah, blah blah. We know why Bush and his administration were so certain that Saddam had most of his weapons of mass destruction. It was all shipped from the states. I’m sure Cheney and Rumsfeld, for starters, could give you an earful. Then again, I’m sure that I’m not telling you anything that you have not already learned on your own, am I.

@@

June 30th, 2009
9:00 am

…and Iraq’s future will have a lot to do with U.S./Iranian negotiations, jay. How are those lookin’ right now?

Open-ended SOFA.

I Report :-) You Whine :-(

June 30th, 2009
9:04 am

The libs seem to have forgotten all about that little surge thingie.

And General Betrayus.

And this war is lost.

And now they want to claim that they won the war, hahahahahaha.

what stooges!

Wyld Byll Hyltnyr

June 30th, 2009
9:05 am

Why do Obumbler and the liberals yearn for the US troops to slink off in shame, when in fact our military has won a great victory and should march off with pride in a ticker-tape parade chocked full of pomp and circumstance.

Seek and ye shall Find

June 30th, 2009
9:06 am

Thank you President Bush and Vice President Cheney, the nation misses your intellect, wisdom, and sage leadership.

That’s more like an illness. A delusion. Not to worry though. He’s one of the shrinking minority — trying ever harder to stay farther to the right than his brethren. Remember, in the end, there can be only one, the one farthest to the right.

Normal

June 30th, 2009
9:09 am

WYLD: I’d be proud to give them a ticker tape parade, and thank them for their sacrifices, but let’s get them home so we can do it, ok?

pat

June 30th, 2009
9:10 am

Just an FYI, Bush was a social liberal. That is why the people on the right did not like him. If you really wanted to vote for the oppostite of Bush, you would have voted for more conservatism, not a giant shift to the left of Lenin.

AmVet

June 30th, 2009
9:12 am

Fixed the typos in that previous post:

Never before in the history of American presidents, has one man, George Walker Bush, undertaken and completed such a deceitful, deadly and inept endeavor; to sacrifice its youth and treasure needlessly to invade and occupy another nation from its own people for no good reason. You’ve done a heckuva job Bushie.

The GOP thanks President Bush for his stunning lack of vision and courage in leading our nation to this “greatest foreign policy blunder in modern history” which has, at once crushed the friendship of American allies and founded yet another floundering puppet-ocracry in the Arab middle east. Let’s hope the Uppity One continues to screww (sic) the pooch and gets more Americans killed on behalf of an ungrateful people in an occupied land.

To hell with you President Bush and Vice President Cheney, the nation celebrates your disgraceful fall from power and the ongoing hemorrhaging of your party and ideology.

I Report :-) You Whine :-(

June 30th, 2009
9:13 am

Passenger jet crashes in Indian Ocean; AIRBUS goes down in ‘rough’ weather…

You may not but I remember when the libs were sneering at Beoing, about how the EU built better airplanes.

I ain’t so sure about that.

@@

June 30th, 2009
9:15 am

Forgot to mention Russia

AND RUSSIA TOO, jay!

July 6th, Obama’s gonna meet with Medvedev and Putin to discuss U.S. concessions that will benefit His war in Afghanistan.

Wyld Byll Hyltnyr

June 30th, 2009
9:15 am

Seek and ye shall Find June 30th, 2009

Look at Obumbler’s deficit, projections of sky rocketing national debt, a healtcare debacle that is unfolding, electric bills set to double under cap and trade, siding with Chavez and the leftists in Honduras rather than taking the side of Freedom and liberty, pleasure trips at taxpayer expense to NYC and Paris, a cabinet full of people that won’t pay taxes, other ethical problems, and, yes, anyone with half a brain dearly misses President Bush and Vice President Cheney.

getalife

June 30th, 2009
9:18 am

The war of choice based on lies is finally over.

Another dark and tragic chapter of American history.

Turd Ferguson

June 30th, 2009
9:18 am

The Iraqi’s will squander their newly found freedom. There will be a topplin of this Iraqi govt and we will probably be revisiting Iraq within the next 10 years.

I hope not and personally think we should let them drown this time.

Bosch

June 30th, 2009
9:18 am

Today’s RW’s birthday? Happy Birthday werewolf.

So, does this mean we won? The wingnuts have to have a winner and a loser because everything is black and white with these guys. So who won? Did we? And if so – suck on it, Obama is Prez now! Hahahhahahahhahahahahahahhahahahahha!

Normal

June 30th, 2009
9:19 am

WYLD: anyone with half a brain dearly misses President Bush and Vice President Cheney.-
———–
Only half wits, you mean, right?

Normal

June 30th, 2009
9:21 am

Turd Ferguson

June 30th, 2009
9:18 am
The Iraqi’s will squander their newly found freedom. There will be a topplin of this Iraqi govt and we will probably be revisiting Iraq within the next 10 years.

I hope not and personally think we should let them drown this time.
————–
Well shut my mouth, sir…I actually agree with you on this one. Mark this day…Just sayin’

Matilda

June 30th, 2009
9:22 am

Pat at 9:10, TOO funny! Are you practicing that Star Wars mind thing? “These are not the droids you’re looking for. Bush was socially liberal. Go right, young man.” HAHAHA! Thanks for the morning chuckle!

Kamchak

June 30th, 2009
9:22 am

“…and yes, anyone with half a brain dearly misses President Bush and Vice President Cheney.”

I agree, completely. Those with only half a brain do miss Bush and Cheney.

Bosch

June 30th, 2009
9:23 am

National Sovreign Day – what a crock of excrement. I’m soooo glad the Iraqis are “free” now – but that’s not why we went in there.

Peadawg

June 30th, 2009
9:24 am

“The war of choice based on lies is finally over.”

No we get to deal w/ President Obama that got elected based on lies for the next 4 years (made God help us if it’s 8)

Peadawg

June 30th, 2009
9:24 am

if it’s 8. The 8 and ) made a smiley face…oops

Bosch

June 30th, 2009
9:25 am

Matilda,

If you are going to reference the best movie ever made, at least get the reference right – it’s the Jedi Mind Trick. Geez.

T

June 30th, 2009
9:26 am

I still do not understand what we have won in Iraq. I don’t know what we have to win in Afgan. Maybe I’m slow. Have we won the war on ter’ror? I have yet to see Osoma hanging from a rope.

Bosch

June 30th, 2009
9:28 am

T,

We’ve won the right to see a country “free” and sovreign. Keep up dude.

Copyleft

June 30th, 2009
9:29 am

“I’ll say most of the opposition ginned up after the situation there went south and casualties rose.”

Not me… I was in the protest marches long before March ‘03. There was ZERO credible evidence that Iraq was a threat to the U.S. And as we now know, they weren’t.

By the way, a “just war” isn’t hard to define at all. In fact, the UN did that very thing several decades back–and the U.S. officially agreed to that definition!

For a war to be just, it must meet several clearly defined criteria.

The war can be waged only as a last resort, with all nonviolent options exhausted.
The war’s weapons must discriminate between combatants and noncombatants.
Its violence must be proportional to the injury we have suffered.
The attackers must have legitimate authority sanctioned by the society they profess to represent.
The peace it establishes must be a clear improvement over what exists.

Them’s the rules. Invading Iraq didn’t qualify.

Matilda

June 30th, 2009
9:30 am

Bosch, thanks! Morning caffeine has not yet fully activated all brain sectors.

Seek and ye shall Find

June 30th, 2009
9:33 am

Seek and ye shall Find June 30th, 2009

Look at Obumbler’s deficit, projections of sky rocketing national debt, a healtcare debacle that is unfolding, electric bills set to double under cap and trade, siding with Chavez and the leftists in Honduras rather than taking the side of Freedom and liberty, pleasure trips at taxpayer expense to NYC and Paris, a cabinet full of people that won’t pay taxes, other ethical problems, and, yes, anyone with half a brain dearly misses President Bush and Vice President Cheney.

Only if you are ready to get serious about looking at the truth behind what Bush and other Republicans have left us with. Then again, I won’t hold my breath. By the way, get a complete brain and you won’t miss those two at all.

Bosch

June 30th, 2009
9:34 am

Matida,

No problem.

DB, Gwinnettian

June 30th, 2009
9:35 am

there is not one Iraqi who says, “Things were better off under Saddam, I wish we could go back.

You know what’s awesome about Wyld? He’s actually spoken to every single Iraqi and he knows this to be a fact.

Wyld also recognizes the incredible, unrecognized business acumen of our great 43rd President, and will entertain you for hours about the man’s pre-political accomplishments if asked nicely.

T

June 30th, 2009
9:35 am

Oh, my bad. I am glad they are ‘free’ and sovreign. Good for them.

So, with the same kinda logic can we expect to gain a world free of male pattern baldness stem from the “war on poverty”?

Still don’t get it.

Bosch

June 30th, 2009
9:35 am

So, if, say, Jeb Bush ever becomes Presidnet (oh God help us), does that mean we’ll invade Iraq again?

shaggy

June 30th, 2009
9:36 am

Is this when they start throwing flowers to us?

Bosch

June 30th, 2009
9:37 am

T,

Of course. Still don’t get it? Good. That’s good.

Bosch

June 30th, 2009
9:38 am

When do they get to have the parade where they greet us as liberators? Is that tomorrow?

Kayaker 71

June 30th, 2009
9:39 am

History repeats itself. The movie “Lawrence of Arabia” gave a great account as to how major factions of the Arab world would not stick together in a spirit of national identity and civic pride. Lawrence handed them their country on a silver platter. What did they do with it? Blew each other up, stayed identified with their so called leaders who depend on a nation of sheep to follow their so called religion that preaches that everyone else is wrong and should die if Allah is not too important in their life. If it were not for the oil, we would not have “a thriving democracy in the middle of the Arab world”. They would just be another group of nomads wandering around in the sand box.
Expect a lot more killing before this is over, if it ever is.

Bosch

June 30th, 2009
9:39 am

Whoa. Serious pronoun confliction there @ 9:38. I apologize to all my former English teachers.

AmVet

June 30th, 2009
9:40 am

“I’ll say most of the opposition ginned up after the situation there went south and casualties rose.”

Paul, technically true, but absolutely misleading.

The chickenhawks bullied everyone they could into supporting that fiasco. Including all but 156 Democrats and SEVEN (???!!!) Republicans int he US Congress. And the evil liberal media was more than happy to take advantage of the impending debacle and enjoy skyrocketing ratings.

I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again, out of eighty talking heads on ABC, NBC, CBS, CNN and (obviously) Faux News immediately following shock and awe, take a wild guess how many were opposed to the”invasion?

Two.

Us”War when its REQUIRED ONLY” types aren’t profitable enough, you see.

But make no mistake, there were plenty of Americans who could a) see that George and Dick was incompetent boobs in the first place and b) knew this was going to go really, really bad from the get go.

Sadly I, along with all of those other Americans, were correct…

Bosch

June 30th, 2009
9:40 am

Kayaker,

So why bother to begin with?

Seek and ye shall Find

June 30th, 2009
9:40 am

As long as we are into dealing with facts (well, some of us), how about a little look at some red-letter dates in history. A little reminder of some of our involvement over in Iraq over the years. You might just get a better understanding of why we are so hated by some.

Paul

June 30th, 2009
9:41 am

Copyleft

Well, you were sure ahead of the Democrats in Congress, that’s for sure! Those folks were cheering under Pres Clinton and cheering under Pres Bush. Until the first one said ‘oops…”

As far as a ‘just’ war – well, golly, if you want to go with recent history… ’cause it doesn’t take an examination of much of mankind’s history to come up with absolutely all kinds of examples of unjust guys winning their wars. Just ask the Native Americans/American Indians/Indians, who were doing it to each other before we got here.

And by those rules, can you think of one war since the UN that was just?

If not, and they happened anyway, does it really matter to the guy getting trampled that he’s morally correct while his family and friends are getting slaughtered?

So by the UN rules (a body made up of many decidedly unjust countries) we wouldn’t go to war if N Korea invaded the South?

We shouldn’t have gone to war in Kuwait? Iraq didn’t do anything to us.

Same in Bosnia. We suffered no injury.

See, what this leaves out of the equation is, the guys doing the stuff we don’t like don’t follow the UN rules. If they don’t, we still should, is that it?

DB, Gwinnettian

June 30th, 2009
9:41 am

Well shut my mouth, sir…I actually agree with you on this one.

Never underestimate the rapidity with which right wing trollboys will throw heathen brown people under the bus. They’ve moved on to the totally hawt Eye-ranian chicks now.

Is this when they start throwing flowers to us?

From George W. Bush Square, one presumes.

Seek and ye shall Find

June 30th, 2009
9:44 am

So, if, say, Jeb Bush ever becomes Presidnet (oh God help us), does that mean we’ll invade Iraq again?

That reminds me of a song.

Gawingnut

June 30th, 2009
9:45 am

Amvet:

Yes, a sad day for the chickenhawks.

Invade Iran.

Won’t have too. Just stand back & watch the Mossad take care of the barbarians.

Bosch

June 30th, 2009
9:46 am

Paul,

I hate it, but we can not fix all the woes of the world.

Joey

June 30th, 2009
9:46 am

Jay’s key paragraph: “As the Iraqis stand up, we will stand down,” President Bush used to say. That seems a long time ago. But it’s time, past time, for the promise in those words to finally be realized.

Jay seems convinced that Iraq and Iraqis are ready and able to stand alone. He is calling on Iraqis to live up to their promise. Never mind our promise to them. Others of you don’t care if Iraqis are ready or not; just dump them.

In US history I can recall only one time that we abandoned a nation in a manner similar (albeit not exactly the same) to what we are doing here. An what a terrible plague was brought upon the people of Viet Nam by that betrayal.

I am hoping that Iraq has obtained the strength and the will necessary to prevent a reversal of the freedom they have gained over the last few years. I hope.

Paul

June 30th, 2009
9:47 am

Y’know, Copyleft, by those criteria we had no right to invade Afghanistan. So it’s an unjust war, too. That Pres Obama is expanding.

Thoughts?

AmVet

“Technically true but absolutely misleading.”

I was referring to Congress. I think taken in that light, given the statements of the chickenhaw…. I mean, Democrats, it’s more than ‘technically’ true.

As far as being bullied: doesn’t say much for the integrity and courage of the Democratic leadership, does it?

GOP is gone

June 30th, 2009
9:50 am

Thanks for the deep laugh you gave me this morning Bylly. Wow, don’t let any facts stand in your way there. Like the fact that Al Qaeda was never in Iraq until the brilliant Bush and Cheney, the real decider, decided to invade another country with a lie as their fear tactic motive.

Just how long did it take you to interview EVERY Iraqi about Saddam anyway? You must be very hot and tired after your trip. You did get one thing right, Americans have been sacrificing its youth and treasure in many conflicts and the Military do what they do very well. THEY should be very proud, as should the rest of Americans, especially since they were never properly supported with troop numbers and equipment from the 3 stooges, B, C and Rummie.

I heard that over 30 big oil companies are bidding this week to get the right to drill in Iraq, a risky but profitable endeavor. Now that will be the real legacy of Iraq and what Cheney the decider had in mind all along.

mm

June 30th, 2009
9:50 am

Anyone who claims “victory” in Iraq is an idiot. We didn’t win anything. And neither did Iraq.

Bosch

June 30th, 2009
9:50 am

Joey is opening the door to blame Obama when the civil war picks back up in Iraq.

Nice try Joey. We don’t guy that crap.

Copyleft

June 30th, 2009
9:50 am

Paul: You may be surprised, but I agree. We don’t need to be in Afghanistan either… at least, not with soldiers.

Tracking down Osama and bringing him to justice is an intelligence problem, not a military one.

P.S. I agree with you on the courage of the Congressional Democrats. How I’d love to see them actually standing up to the Republican fools and actually instituting some LIBERAL policies instead of the usual special-interest pandering.

Bosch

June 30th, 2009
9:51 am

Excuse me, we don’t BUY that crap. Burp.

Paul

June 30th, 2009
9:52 am

Bosch 9:46

You got it.

But as one of those talking heads, ex military type and now author, on Fox News said in a book back in the 90s: we shouldn’t. But the difficulty in the coming years (which is now) will occur when power transfers to the party of feelings and empathy who sees videos of suffering and nastiness and wrongness and they will say, but we have to do something!!!

And it’ll be okay because we’re doing it for the right reasons and it’s not for oil or corporate profits and we know we’re really, really good!

Bosch

June 30th, 2009
9:52 am

“I heard that over 30 big oil companies are bidding this week to get the right to drill in Iraq, a risky but profitable endeavor. Now that will be the real legacy of Iraq and what Cheney the decider had in mind all along”

TESTIFY!!! And Amen.

Bosch

June 30th, 2009
9:53 am

Paul,

“but we have to do something”

No we don’t. Sometimes you have to let children face the consequences of their actions, it’s the only way they grow.

Copyleft

June 30th, 2009
9:54 am

Followup to Paul

“the guys doing the stuff we don’t like don’t follow the UN rules. If they don’t, we still should, is that it?”

YES! That’s it exactly. (Finally, he gets it!) It’s called “having principles.” And yes, it really DOES matter.

I know it’s easy to forget that such things as American ideals could actually matter, after eight years of seeing them trampled and ignored in favor of idiotic bravado… but principles are what separate the Good Guys from the Bad Guys. And that matters even when the Bad Guys have more firepower.

Bosch

June 30th, 2009
9:55 am

Paul,

And if we are the ones who always go in and fix the woes of the world, then why should the UN bother?

Paul

June 30th, 2009
9:58 am

Copyleft

Well, you are consistent. Thanks for the explanation.

I had no problem with taking down the Afg gov’t, even if it didn’t meet UN criteria. I have a big problem with what happened after we got done with that few weeks’ worth of operations.

I still have trouble with accepting the ‘intelligence’ idea. Maybe it’s definitions. Intel is, to me, information gathering and analysis. Satellites, info intercepts, people on the ground watching and hearing. But that’s as far as it goes. Then comes bringing in the people to act on the intel. If it’s a law case, it’s legal types. If you’re at war, it’s usually military. I think we now have a situation where it’s both, actually, as we see with this war against Islamic jihadists. And sometimes we just call in the guys most people don’t want to acknowledge and they take care of things.

GOP is gone

June 30th, 2009
10:04 am

I believe the KEY phrase is foriegn oil companies EXPELLED under Saddam.

Iraq’s first postwar oil bidding for oil contracts
By The Associated Press

Iraq is scheduled to open its first postwar bidding for oil service contracts on Monday. International oil companies were expelled by Saddam Hussein more than 30 years ago. The companies that qualified for the bidding, along with the fields and reserves, are compiled below.

UNITED STATES: Chevron, ConocoPhilips, Exxon Mobil, Hess Corp., Marathon International Petroleum Ltd., and Occidental Petroleum Corp.

United Kingdom: BP Group PLC.

Japan: Inpex Holdings Inc., Japex and Nippon Oil Corp.

Australia: BHP Billiton Ltd. and Woodside Petroleum Ltd.

China: China’s CNOOC Ltd., CNPC International Ltd., Sinochem International Co. Ltd., and Sinopec Shanghai Petrochemical co. Ltd.

Italy: Edison International SPA and Eni.

Russia: JSC Lukoil and JSC Gazprom Neft.

France: Total SA.

South Korea: Korea Gas Corp).

Spain: Repsol YPF SA.

Norway: StatoilHydro ASA.

Netherlands: Royal Dutch Shell.

Canada: Nexen Inc.

Denmark: Maersk.

India: ONGC Ltd.

Malaysia: Petronas Gas BHD.

Indonesia: PT Pertamina.

The six state-run oil firms that have been added are Turkish Petroleum Corporation (TPAO), Algeria’s Sonatrach, PetroVietnam, Angola’s Sonangol SA, Pakistan Petroleum Ltd., and Petroleum Authority of Thailand.

OIL AND GAS FIELDS

BASRA OIL FIELDS:

Rumaila: The field is made up of two separate fields; North and South Rumaila. Together they have an estimated of almost 17.8 billion barrels of oil in reserves. It currently produces slightly over 1 million barrels a day, and its production target is about 1.8 million barrels per day.

West Qurna Stage 1: It has estimated reserves of 8.6 billion barrels, and currently produces about 280,000 barrels a day. The production target is slightly over 600,000 barrels per day.

Zubair: It holds an estimated 4.1 billion barrels of oil. Its current production is about 230,000 barrels per day and its target production is slightly over 400,000 barrels per day.

MISSAN OIL FIELDS:

They are three adjacent fields offered as one group. Total daily production ranges from 100,000 to 110,000 barrels per day with target output at about 300,000 barrels per day.

Fauqa (or Fakkah): Almost 1.55 billion barrels of oil in reserves.

Buzurgan: About 612 million barrels of oil in reserves.

Abu Gharab: About 454 million barrels of oil in reserves.

KIRKUK OIL FIELDS:

Kirkuk: It has estimated reserves of almost 8 billion barrels. Current production is slightly over 400,000 barrels per day. Target production is about 625,000 barrels per day.

Bai Hassan: It has almost 2.4 billion barrels of oil in reserves. Current daily production is about 150,000 barrels per day. Target production is about 230,000 barrels per day.

GAS FIELDS:

Akkas Field in Anbar Province:Undeveloped. At least 2.15 trillion cubic feet of reserves and potential production of 500 million cubic feet per day.

Mansouria in Diyala Province: Undeveloped. An estimated 3.3 trillion cubic feet of reserves with production potential of 330 million cubic feet a day.

Source: Iraq’s Oil Ministry

Paul

June 30th, 2009
10:06 am

Bosch 9:55

They won’t, usually. Because many times, the UN power blocks of the human rights abusers and racists will block the very actions they tacitly endorse.

Copyleft 9:54

I like principles. I also like to see what happens to them when reality intrudes.

UN blocked action in Bosnia. We activated NATO. UN didn’t take effective action in Rwanda. They dithered.

Hold that thought, let’s return to S Korea. Your position is we shouldn’t intervene (treaty obligations notwithstanding) because N Korea would have started an unjust war and we can’t take part in one? Or is the follow on, N Korea may have started an unjust war, but we are justified in responding? If so, how? S Korea may be justified, but us?

See, this opens up the whole “THEY started the unjust war” idea. If that is the case, what principles guide our intervention? When do we intervene? Or, do we not?

So we act when it’s in our best interests. And Pres Obama will do the same as Pres Bush in that regard. It’s not about being ‘better than’ or ‘morally superior.’ It just is what it is.

Joey

June 30th, 2009
10:07 am

Once again Bosch is wrong in his interpretation of the words and Bosch’s assignment of the motives of a poster.

Paul

June 30th, 2009
10:07 am

Copyleft

The last paragraph of my last post was supposed to be the last paragraph of the response to Bosch.

AmVet

June 30th, 2009
10:10 am

Paul totally disingenuous.

156 out of 267 (58%) Democrats who voted against that clusterf&ck is at least respectable, IMHO. I presume MANY were politically forced into supporting those bungling lamebrains in the White House. Or in effect get railroaded out of Washington by the angry and bloodlusting neo-con mob. Who tried to do it anyway. I hated it and cqalled them spineless. But if they lived to fight another political day and in essence help get rid of those a’holes “across the aisle”, so be it.

But the 97.3% – of the lockstep, mindless sheep, goose stepping apparatchiks in the GOP?

Utterly, totally and completely disgraceful. And I will never forgive those sorry b@st@rds.

The only silver lining is that those very neo-conned chickenhawks have now lost 94% of the contested seats in the past two elections nationally – the White House, six out of six governorships and 56 out of 60 US Congressional races.

It’s a damn good start to eradicating that neo-con disease, and is some form of justice. And I salute all of the Americans who made those results possible.

But it will never bring those 4,325 Americans.

Duty calls. Later all…

Bosch

June 30th, 2009
10:12 am

Paul,

I see that, but what exactly is our best interest? I don’t think we know anymore.

Joey,

Bull excrement. You will be one of the first posters here blaming Obama when the civil war picks back up in Iraq.

TnGelding

June 30th, 2009
10:12 am

@@

June 30th, 2009
10:16 am

Paul:

This one’s for you from Stratfor.

The Big Picture! The upcoming showdown between Obama and Putin.

Taking bets….

J/K!

There’s a good reason why Putin sees Obama as weak. It’s because Obama talks too much.

Copyleft

June 30th, 2009
10:19 am

Paul: I like to see what happens to some people’s claims of being ‘principles’ when the chips are down too.

As it turns out, a heckuva lot of folks only TALK about their principles, but are too weak to back them up when push comes to shove. You know, like “We don’t torture… unless we’re really scared or angyr.” Those folks–armed or otherwise–are rightly despised as cowards.

The US government may always ACT according to pragmatic self-interest, but that doesn’t mean that the people should ever stop pushing for us to practice what we preach. (Or else get out of the preaching business.)