The one decision that doomed Bush’s presidency
A friend and I were discussing the new biography of Donald Rumsfeld, which led to a discussion of just how things went so bad, so quickly in so many areas for the Bush administration.
It got me to thinking. For most of the Bush presidency, I believed that people who pointed the finger at Dick Cheney as the source of most of the presidents’ problems were exaggerating. Yeah, Cheney was a bit of a nut, but the idea that Bush would let himself be manipulated by his vice president to such a degree — I had a hard time believing it.
I don’t anymore.
In fact, I’d argue now that the most important decision of Bush’s presidency — the decision that determined the fate of his administration and to a degree of this country — occurred in July of 2000, when he chose Cheney to be his running mate. From that moment, the elements of tragedy were in place. I suspect history will reach that judgment as well.
If true, that’s of course as much Bush’s fault as Cheney’s. More so, since he was nominally the guy in charge. But there’s no question that at least on the foreign policy front, the Bush administration got a lot smarter about things in its second term, once Rumsfeld — Cheney’s guy — was gone from the Pentagon, Cheney’s influence waned and Condi Rice finally began to assert herself. And the real break, I suspect, came when Bush realized in the summer of 2005 that he had been misled by Cheney and his minions about their role in the Valerie Plame episode.
It’s conjecture at this point, but I suspect that incident opened Bush’s eyes to what had been happening in his own White House, and broke whatever trust remained with his vice president. It would help explain why Bush refused to pardon Scooter Libby as he left office, despite repeated pleas from Cheney and others.
We’ll see what history has to say, but I suspect its general narrative will follow that story line.
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251 comments Add your comment
Jay
June 24th, 2009
9:52 am
And for AtlantaNative and others, if you care to go back and look, I didn’t become strongly critical of Bush until the decision to invade Iraq, followed by the ineptness of the occupation and the administration’s refusal to talk straight to the American people.
I understand that thought conflicts with the image of reality that many of you need to get you through the day, but that’s OK. It’s true nonetheless.
Brad Steel
June 24th, 2009
9:52 am
Cheney/Satin 2012
Paul
June 24th, 2009
9:53 am
Jay 9:47
[[Funny how that works.]]
It’s a partisan kinda thing –
But I wonder if the view of ‘ancient’ has to do with the age of the poster?
Later -
Atlanta Native
June 24th, 2009
9:53 am
mm,
It might be that the democratic presidents use our military more than Republicans.
WWI – Wilson D
WWII – Roosevelt – D
Korea – Truman – D
Viet Nam – Kennedy – D
Tonkin Bay Resolution – Johnson – D
Grenada – Reagan – R
Kuwait – Bush I – R
Afghanistan – Bush II – R Up the ante Obama – D
Iraq – Bush II – R
Not a judgment call, just statistics.
I guess my earlier post was not partisan enough to draw a response. Or is it that ya’ll have no defense? Jay has none.
Iraq
George American
June 24th, 2009
9:54 am
History, not some 2nd rate “book” or the liberal drive-by media, will show that Bush and Cheney were one of the most successful teams in history.
Icon
June 24th, 2009
9:56 am
Here you go whiner. A short list of why we’ll be paying for W’s incompetence and epic failure for 20 years or more:
Contractors Failing Troops in Iraq and Afghanistan
No Child Left Behind a Complete Failure. Standards lowered.
Student Loan Scandal.
Katrina: FEMA trailers with Formaldehyde
Katrina: Complete Failure to provide assistance during Katrina
Katrina: Flood Protection a joke.
Katrina: New Orleans still in trouble years later.
No Sustainable energy policy other than bomb Iraq
Foreign Oil Dependence has Grown
No planning on Refinery Bottleneck still squeezes supply
No work on modernizing our electrical grid
Climate Chante: Hide and edit the assessments
No advance of Climate Change policy
Science Policy Politicized
Mountaintop Coal Mining alters Appalachia
EPA misleads on Air Quality after 9/11
TARP: Wrote blank check to banks, no oversight, no one kept track of where the money went
Skyrocketing Deficit.
No oversight on Credit Default Swaps and bank leveraging asset ratios
Lax oversight on Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac
SEC allowed Investment Banks to to go unregulated
More corps pay less taxes
Audit rates for the rich fall, audits of poor spike
US companies hiding revenues offshore
Mismanagement and Cronyism at HUD
Medicare Fraud completely out of control
50 million Americans without health insurance
Torture
CIA renditions
Politicization of Department of Justice
Arbitray detention at Guantanamo
No immigration reform
30 Billion dollar Virtual fence a failure
First responders STILL cannot communicate with each other in case of disaster
FBI abuses power to obtain citizen information
Agencies failed to share intelligence on 9/11 terrorists
Pakistan remains Al Qaeda Haven
FBI failure to create a modern secure computer network
Terrorist watch list mismanged
Lack of due process for terrorism suspects
US guns arming mexican caztels
Utterly false premise for going to war
Abu Ghraib
Poor health care for Vets
Blackwater
Military failure to secure Iraq after invasion, looting.
Lack of armored protection for troops
Incompetent planning for post-invasion Iraq
Loss of Billions in cash in Iraq
Taliban resurgence in Afghanistan
190,000 missing weapons in Iraq
Failure to modernize Air Traffic Control
FAA in the dark on airline maintenance issues
Record delays in air travel
FAA inspectors in bed with airlines
Abuse of Executive Power
Excessive Executive Secrecy
Signing statements used to thwart laws
Vice President’s Office exempts itself from Information safeguards (laws)
Executive Office of the President “Loses” E-mails
Harriot Myers
Alberto Gonzalez
Seriously, Whiner, get a clue before you hurt someone.
Northern Songs Ltd
June 24th, 2009
9:56 am
DB and Mrs G: I actually prefer “Lemon Turd”.
USinUK
June 24th, 2009
9:56 am
wow … cheney is running with satin???
is that like Obama is a muslin?
Copyleft
June 24th, 2009
9:57 am
I’d agree that Bush made a serious mistake in naming Cheney as his running mate… but he went into it with his eyes open.
Remember, Bush FILLED his administration with proven traitors to American, i.e., signatories to the PNAC document. Cheney was just one of many.
Shawny
June 24th, 2009
9:57 am
While dredging up Bush isn’t ancient history, it is history. Let it go already. And BTW, you made so many statements that can not be confirmed or denied that it makes this topic ridiculous.
“he was nominally the guy in charge”. You don’t know that – conjecture
“once Rumsfeld — Cheney’s guy — was gone from the Pentagon, Cheney’s influence waned”. You don’t know that – conjecture
“Bush realized in the summer of 2005 that he had been misled by Cheney and his minions about their role in the Valerie Plame episode.”. You don’t know that – conjecture
“but I suspect that incident opened Bush’s eyes to what had been happening in his own White House, and broke whatever trust remained with his vice president”. Admitted conjecture.
Quite making up stuff and stick to the facts. And while you are at it, let’s discuss how we are going to finance all of the CURRENT proposed govt spending.
USinUK
June 24th, 2009
9:58 am
and Jay – you are full of P&V today — you just go!!
Brad Steel
June 24th, 2009
9:59 am
Nice analysis of military policy AtlantaNative (idiot). Your analysis is unassailable and shows absolute positive proof.
And a chilly day in May proves that there is no global warming too. I smoked a cigarette once and I don’t have cancer – proof positive.
Atlanta Native
June 24th, 2009
10:00 am
Oops, I’m wrong. Jay did respond. I apologize, Jay. But that doesn’t change the fact that you are doing the same thing that the GOP hacks did when Bush was starting out.
Regardless of how you frame your opinions from then, the point rings true. Whenever one party has control of both executive and legislative, the American people suffer and hacks supporting the party in power focus on the past administration to avoid the morass facing them. It’s not a Dem or GOP thing, it is a blind partisan thing.
Normal
June 24th, 2009
10:00 am
George American…Bless your heart…Just sayin’
USinUK
June 24th, 2009
10:01 am
Atlanta “History is not my strong suit” Native –
WWI – Wilson D — we were attacked
WWII – Roosevelt – D — we were attacked
Korea – Truman – D — we were fighting communism
Viet Nam – Kennedy – D — we were obligated due to treaties
Tonkin Bay Resolution – Johnson – D — you’re actually separating this out from VN???
Grenada – Reagan – R (oh, yeah, THERE was a war we needed to get into)
Kuwait – Bush I – R (an ally was invaded)
Afghanistan – Bush II – R Up the ante Obama – D (harbored terrorists that attacked us)
Iraq – Bush II – R (tried to kill his daddy)
A BUSH FAN
June 24th, 2009
10:08 am
Jay…….Need to stick to what you do best….Write JOKES for the 50-percent unEmployed of Atlanta.
getalife
June 24th, 2009
10:08 am
Funny how cons still cling to the lies of the worst ever and attack a man trying to put out all his fires.
Party over country. Failed Americans.
Anyhoo, our friends across the pond tried to have a private inquiry on the lost Iraq war.
It will be public and they are not moving on.
Nobody reads long posts
June 24th, 2009
10:12 am
Jay Bookman refers to Cheney as “a bit of a nut,” and every day Biden opens a gallon can of nuts and worms for Obama’s snacking enjoyment. The Bookmans of the world can’t sell papers, because the Obama supporters don’t read the news. It’s too, like, depressing, so they, like, just listen to, like, their BFFs for the tune to sing next.
Paul
June 24th, 2009
10:13 am
hey getalife
Was Jungmann great, or what? Only a freshman. Jindal and Perry have a bet. I wish Texas could win but Perry would lose.
WhoCares
June 24th, 2009
10:15 am
If I recall Carter and Clinton both tried to use the military but things didn’t turn out too well for us.
I Report :-) You Whine :-(
June 24th, 2009
10:16 am
Back when the housing mania was taking off, Massachusetts Congressman Barney Frank famously said he wanted Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac to “roll the dice” in the name of affordable housing. That didn’t turn out so well, but Mr. Frank has since only accumulated more power. And now he is returning to the scene of the calamity — with your money. He and New York Representative Anthony Weiner have sent a letter to the heads of Fannie and Freddie exhorting them to lower lending standards for condo buyers. -Wall Street Journal
It’s Bushie’s fault, blaaaaaaahhhhh!
DB, Gwinnettian
June 24th, 2009
10:17 am
I’m kinda glad things turned to the whole kneejerk “Oh, like you libs supported BUSH?” conversation-stopper-thingie I hear a lot from conservatives because I’ve wanted to get seriously personal about this whole issue of who-supported-whom-when for a while. Here goes.
Was I angry about FL in 2000? Hell yeah. Every bit as much the next Gore voter. But Gore had made a gracious speech and said of contesting the election, “It’s time for me to go”– and that went a very long way toward me giving Bush a very serious break.
I was told to get over the election and I really tried to move on. I actually saw some merit in the legislative wheeling and dealing Bush attempted pre-9/11, specifically his efforts to tie domestic oil drilling to raising CAFE standards.
(And hell, NCLB?–even Cynthia McKinney supported that!)
Bush’s approval ratings immediately after 9/11 weren’t in the stratosphere for nothing. We really were united behind him. I would’ve gone anywhere, done anything to get the fanatical SOBs that had attacked MY city. I took that attack about as personally as anyone, since that’s the metro area I’d called home most of life prior to moving to GA.
And yeah, I actually supported invading Iraq. I was one of those sad blue-dog/DLC types who actually thought Joe Lieberman wasn’t a total dick; what can I say.
Conservatives, I think, like to believe that people like me wound up turning against Bush as vehemently as we did because it was fashionable, because we do as we’re told, yadda yadda. All I can do is speak for myself and say plainly that breaking away from the New Republic, centrist Democrat mind-set, recognizing that Iraq was an abject failure and that we had been had and should’ve known better, that was fracking painful.
Fact was, though, that Bush got a more or less free ride from me for a good solid two-plus years into his term. And I ask nothing more than that of my principled conservative brethren.
And yeah, I know that there are plenty who do, actually–they just don’t generally post here, is all.
Normal
June 24th, 2009
10:19 am
Getalife…Give the CONs a break…When you’ve been in a coma for eight years, and suddenly come to and face reality…well, it must be a shock, don’t cha know…
USinUK
June 24th, 2009
10:20 am
whocares – as for Clinton’s use of the military, I think the people of Bosnia would disagree with your assessment
Atlanta Native
June 24th, 2009
10:20 am
US in UK – did you notice that I said it was not a judgment call?????? Don’t tell me I do not know about history just because you think you disagree with me based on some preconceived notions you have about me.
I added Grenada in order to not be yelled at for leaving it out. Stupid and pointless that war was (Yoda speak)
I separated the Tonkin Bay Resolution because it became a whole new war then. If you would like to discuss the troops and strategy differences that lead to my separation, that might be fun. I like to look back to the decade the French spent there when I analyze US policy in Viet Nam.
If you want to debate the Korean War and the fight against communism that worked so well there and in Viet Nam, I guess we could . . . . .
As for Iraq II being revenge for trying to kill Bush’s daddy, I could not agree more. If you want to discuss the Powell doctrine v. the Rumsfeld stupidity, we could do that too.
On WWI and us being attacked – we should have hit Saudi Arabia in 2001 since the Lusitania was nowhere near as adversarial as 9/11, under that theory.
Just because you think you disagree with me does not make me ignorant.
Normal
June 24th, 2009
10:21 am
DB: Well said and from the heart…I like that…
Bosch
June 24th, 2009
10:22 am
Paul,
Oh that. Well, I don’t like the whole air of secrecy around that, I didn’t know it was coal executives he was meeting with. But, like I said, if we invade Australia or West Virginia, then it will raise a red flag with me.
Kamchak,
I heard about the green bands, but didn’t hear anything after that. They were “retired” like “you don’t play anymore?”
USinUK
June 24th, 2009
10:23 am
Atlanta Native –
then how about now setting it up as “seee!!! DEMS are worse war mongerers than the GOP!!! so there!!!”
USinUK
June 24th, 2009
10:24 am
“now” should have been NOT setting it up …
DB, Gwinnettian
June 24th, 2009
10:24 am
Argh, mis-wrote @ 10.17. Obviously I don’t expect anyone to give Obama a “free ride” (I certainly don’t) but rather something akin to the benefit of the doubt.
Mrs. Godzilla
June 24th, 2009
10:25 am
Lemon Turd Sings Northern Songs? Too funny
on a more serious note and OFF TOPIC
there was a “non-event” at the Edwin I. Hatch Nuclear Power Plant
in Baxley GA yesterday
Southern Co’s 883-megawatt Unit 2 at the Hatch nuclear power station in Georgia shut early Tuesday from 61 percent power due to high reactor water level, the company told the U.S. Nuclear Regulatory Commission in a report. At the time of the shutdown, the unit was ramping up after exiting a June 20 outage due to a high reactor pressure scram signal. Operators were investigating the cause of the latest outage. The 1,752 MW Hatch station is located in Baxley in Appling County about 120 miles north of Jacksonville, Florida. It has two units, 876 MW Unit ( UNT – news – people ) 1 and the 883 MW Unit 2, which entered service in 1975 and 1979. The NRC extended the original 40 year licenses for both units in 2002 for another 20 years until 2034 and 2038. Unit 1 continued to operate at full power. One MW powers about 500 homes in Georgia. )
No mention of it in that damned liberal media
Paul
June 24th, 2009
10:26 am
Report/Whine 10:16
Congressman Barney Frank is going back on O’Reilly tonight. Two-parter, I think.
Amazing. He goes on, they both go through their schtick, leftwing sites cut and paste and go on about it for days… then BOR invites him again and Frank is right back on.
Oh, this morning an anchor asked BOR ‘you gonna ask him about (getting some deal for a Boston company). BOR said ‘hey look, the guy’s a Congressman. It’s his job to preserve jobs in his district. If I was a Congressman I’d be doing the same thing.”
How could a neoconfascistRepublicanapologist say such a thing?!!?
Peadawg
June 24th, 2009
10:27 am
“I supported him with all I could give him up until 911. Almost forgave him then, but he had to go and do Iraq. I tried. Are you trying? Just askin’…”
I was going to give Obama a change until he continued the spend spend spend spend spend mentality of Bush, which he said he would stop. Oh yeah, How’s the unemployment rate doing since he’s gotten in office…gone up or down? hmmmmmmm? just sayin’
Atlanta Native
June 24th, 2009
10:28 am
Great post DB.
As for UK, I did not set it up like that, it’s just how you read it.
Normal
June 24th, 2009
10:28 am
Actually, “Lemon Turd” would be a great name for a grunge band…Just sayin’
WhoCares
June 24th, 2009
10:31 am
“whocares – as for Clinton’s use of the military, I think the people of Bosnia would disagree with your assessment”
USinUK
I’ll give you that one, I forgot about that. I was referring to that little episode in Somolia.
Peadawg
June 24th, 2009
10:31 am
chance*** not change.
sry for the typo
RAMBLE ON!!!
June 24th, 2009
10:31 am
Icon, you left out the swine flu, Michael Phelps smoking pot, and Anna Nicole Smith (he drove’em both to drugs).
I think he was/is also a major reason the Braves haven’t been to the playoffs in a few years.
USinUK
June 24th, 2009
10:32 am
Atlanta Native – “the democratic presidents use our military more than Republicans” … gee, don’t know why I would have “misread” your intention …
Peadawg … what part of “lagging indicator” do you not understand?
I Report :-) You Whine :-(
June 24th, 2009
10:33 am
Paul- I sincerely hope that O’Pinko calls Frank “mam” and not “senator.”
Paul
June 24th, 2009
10:33 am
DB, Gwinnettian
You’re a complicated guy, you know that? Stereotypes are soooo much easier to deal with.
You said ‘frack.’ That bestows instant credibility.
Bosch
We ain’t gonna invade Australia. We like Hugh Jackman. And we ain’t gonna invade West Virginia, either. Robert Byrd has dumped gazillions in there to make tunnels and bunkers for military hardware just like Switzerland.
Obama and with the coal execs. Think they’re looking for any special tax breaks? Nawwwwwww.
I love irony.
Normal
June 24th, 2009
10:34 am
Peadawg
June 24th, 2009
10:27 am
—————–
I’m sorry man, I thought you had a clue…President Obama inherited this. The economy was falling before he took office, as was the rest of it. As of now, I only question why the heck President Obama wanted the job in the first place…Just sayin…
Atlanta Native
June 24th, 2009
10:34 am
Oops, I forgot Bosnia, too. It was a great success, in my opinion. Our image was on the way up in the world after Bosnia.
USinUK
June 24th, 2009
10:35 am
whocares –
Somalia – tragic operation, that. but that was also because Papa Bush kinda-sorta got us involved without really having a clear goal other than trying to keep the peace. Everyone thinks that Clinton got us into it, but it was Papa Bush.
Normal
June 24th, 2009
10:37 am
I Report
You Whine 
June 24th, 2009
10:33 am
——–
Bless your heart too…just sayin’
Paul
June 24th, 2009
10:37 am
Bosnia. Lessee. Country does something we don’t like. Neighbors don’t act. US doesn’t act. US drags a military alliance in to impose its will. We’re still there years and years later.
Yup. Perfect model for imposing American cultural values.
Paul
June 24th, 2009
10:38 am
Make that “Neighbors don’t act. //UN// doesn’t act.”
Kamchak
June 24th, 2009
10:38 am
Bosch
Yeah “retired” like, you’re off the national team and we have revoked your passports. I understand that two of them play professionally in Germany.
booger
June 24th, 2009
10:39 am
I must have missed Jays columns on why Bill Clinton failed or why Jimmy Carter failed. I feel much better now.
For those who think Bush failed, if he did it was because the media decided he would. So far they have decided Obama will succeed. The media is journalism’s worst enemy.
WhoCares
June 24th, 2009
10:40 am
USinUK,
Maybe so, but just like Johnson and Nixon took the rap for Vietnam, I’m afraid Clinton’s going to have to take it for Somolia
Bosch
June 24th, 2009
10:42 am
“Oops, I forgot Bosnia, too”
How does one just “forget” Bosnia? OMG.
Paul,
Special taxes? Probably so. Makes sense. Obama’s a politician first, Master of the Universe, second.
RAMBLE ON!!!
June 24th, 2009
10:42 am
The people of Bosnia can thank an intern and a cigar for that freedom, or was that Hilary ducking sniper fire?
Doggone/GA
June 24th, 2009
10:43 am
“For those who think Bush failed, if he did it was because the media decided he would”
We sure have a POWERFUL MEDIA by golly!
USinUK
June 24th, 2009
10:44 am
Paul –
Bosnia wasn’t the UN – it was a NATO force – the US wasn’t and isn’t there alone. also, the reason we went in was not to “install democracy” (like it’s some kind of i-App), it was to STOP GENOCIDE.
Bosch
June 24th, 2009
10:44 am
Kamchak,
Wow, didn’t know that. That pretty much sucks.
RAMBLE ON!!!
June 24th, 2009
10:45 am
Jimmy Carter was a huge success, that’s why Obama is determined to out do him.
Bosch
June 24th, 2009
10:45 am
“For those who think Bush failed, if he did it was because the media decided he would”
Damn. Where’s my monitor cleaning kit?
Atlanta Native
June 24th, 2009
10:46 am
UK can’t let it go can you? I know you think of me as a raging Republican out to paint Democrats as warmongers. I am not. I’m an independent who misses conservative democrats and liberal republicans. I miss a convention where a platform was hammered out instead pep rally where a candidate is anointed (not just the last election).
Me
June 24th, 2009
10:46 am
Jay,
Anything to say about what Obama is doing to prevent North Korea from sending missiles towards our country? How about the steps Obama is taking to encourage and promote democracy in Iran? Are you avoiding these issues because there is no defense for our President’s inaction?
Paul
June 24th, 2009
10:47 am
Bosch
[[Obama’s a politician first, Master of the Universe, second.]]
Michelle as Meg Foster?
Told ya’ she can be scary -
USinUK
June 24th, 2009
10:47 am
“For those who think Bush failed, if he did it was because the media decided he would”
hahahaha … yeah. the media drove the economy into the ground. the media started spying on US citizens (without benefit of a warrant).
the media is to blame for the heartbreak of psoriasis, too.
WhoCares
June 24th, 2009
10:47 am
Oh….and we also forgot blowing up Kadafee’s (sp) house when he wasn’t home. Who get’s the credit for that?
TnGelding
June 24th, 2009
10:47 am
Even more successful than the Gypper?
I’d say cutting the tax rate with so many pressing problems (SS, health care, energy, planned preemptive war(s)) would rank right up there as his biggest mistake. His mistake wasn’t picking Cheney, it was acquiescing to him for so long.
Heck, let’s just admit it, it was our mistake for allowing the election to be so close. But then if the biased, liberal media had done its job, it wouldn’t have been close. And then there was “that woman” with the stained blue dress.
Peadawg
June 24th, 2009
10:48 am
Obama inherited it blah blah blah. WHAT HAS HE DONE TO HELP IT!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?
Doggone/GA
June 24th, 2009
10:48 am
“That pretty much sucks”
But it isn’t surprising.
The Baron
June 24th, 2009
10:49 am
Everything Jay says about the Bush legacy is correct. I always thought ‘W’ was a fine guy, someone to have a beer with (I still think so). I also thought he might have been a ‘harmless’ president if it werent for the diabolic influence of Dick Cheney, a man with a permanently dark world view!
Unfortunately for ‘W’, his administration was thus used to totally and finally discredit this largely unthinking, short-sighted and in many cases stupid neo-conservative philosophy. Somehow, Cheney hopes to salvage their image by positioning himself for instant recovery should the US be hit by a terrorist attack again. Luckily, the vast majority of Americans have smartened up since the tragic 8 years of ‘W’.
America deserves to be led by smart thinking, practical and pragmatic leaders, not ideologues who see themselves as ‘hammers’ and everything and everyone else as ‘nails’!
Normal
June 24th, 2009
10:49 am
I think RAMBLE ON!!! is LEMON TURD…
USinUK
June 24th, 2009
10:49 am
Atlanta Native –
I miss the first part, too … don’t think the second part ever existed (sorry, but the “smoke-filled room” isn’t something that was created by Hollywood)
but, as I’ve said before – words mean something. if you don’t mean to frame your argument that Dems are more trigger-happy than the GOP, then don’t use those words.
Paul
June 24th, 2009
10:51 am
USinUK
I said the UN wouldn’t act so Pres Clinton pressed NATO into service. Of course we weren’t alone – any more than we were alone in Iraq (which some seem to think after they get the obligatory “except for the Brits” out of the way).
I didn’t say anything about installing democracy. I said to impose our cultural values. Which we did.
Yes, how one looks at genocide is a cultural value. See, we’ll invade another country if our sensibilities are offended. But we’ll condemn a pres for doing so if he’s not of our party.
USinUK
June 24th, 2009
10:52 am
whocares — you’re right on the blame for Somalia – it’s a shame, but yeah, you’re right. (although, I think the blame was more a reflection on the “draft-dodger-as-commander-in-chief” narrative that the right was flinging like poo)
peadawg – take a deeeeeeep breath. we’ve been in a recession since December 2007. we didn’t GET here overnight. we’re not GETTING OUT overnight, either.
Bosch
June 24th, 2009
10:52 am
USinUK,
I can loan you my monitor cleaning kit if you like.
Paul,
Meg Foster? That woman has devil eyes. Seriously.
Normal
June 24th, 2009
10:54 am
Peadawg
June 24th, 2009
10:48 am
———–
Open your eyes, man. He is doing everything he can, and it is starting to work. Get with the program…
USinUK
June 24th, 2009
10:55 am
Paul –
okay. I’ll bite. which cultural values did we press on Bosnia? (and I’m not trying to be snarky – I really want to understand where you’re coming from on this)
WhoCares
June 24th, 2009
10:56 am
I wonder what would happen if Israel offered to help install a democracy in Iran?
Bosch
June 24th, 2009
10:56 am
Paul,
Devil eyes like Cindy McCain. Those womens’ eye just ain’t right.
Paul
June 24th, 2009
10:57 am
WhoCares 10:47
[[Oh….and we also forgot blowing up Kadafee’s (sp) house when he wasn’t home. Who get’s the credit for that?]]
Qadaffi was home. He left the compound just before the bombs dropped. Warned by a foreign government.
I guess this is why some people switch monikers. Covers embarrassment.
Mike
June 24th, 2009
10:58 am
Hey Jay … what a joke?!?!? The government is taking over banks, the auto industry, health care and anything else it can … and is about to institute a federal sales tax. President Obama is “deeply concerned” about everything — North Korea aiming missiles our way, the voters in Iran — but can’t take leadership on anything. And you write about what Bush did wrong!?!?!? No small wonder that liberal newspapers like the AJC and liberal writers like you are struggling to survive.
RAMBLE ON!!!
June 24th, 2009
10:58 am
Any chance you libs are vacationing in Hawaii this 4th of July?
Peadawg
June 24th, 2009
10:58 am
“Open your eyes, man. He is doing everything he can, and it is starting to work”
Deficit going up.
Unemployment going up.
Still wasting time in Iraq.
If that’s helping, I don’t want to see what he does when he starts hurting this country!
jt
June 24th, 2009
10:59 am
Bush, Obama, Cheney, Rumsfeild, etc….
It is still the same 99 rapscallions in the senate.
(give or take a few for criminal transgressions).
Bosch
June 24th, 2009
11:00 am
“The government is taking over banks, the auto industry, health care and anything else it can”
Holy hell! When did this happen?
RAMBLE ON!!!
June 24th, 2009
11:02 am
Wrong Normal, and what is starting to work?
Socialization, yeah I guess so.
Paul
June 24th, 2009
11:03 am
Bosch
Meg Foster carried the movie. Cindy’s eyes are fiiiiiiiiiinnnnnnnnne…………………………
USinUK
Okay, since we have so many newbies around, whenever people go on and on about how Bush imposed our will and acted alone and didn’t like what he saw in another country…
I just ask how it’s different from Bosnia. Usual response is “but that’s different! It’s genocide!” So I ask, well, it’s ‘wrong’ because? In whose eyes? Does it happen elsewhere? Do we intervene everywhere? If it’s wrong, the UN doesn’t act because?
Sure there are holes and answers. Bosch stays out of it because we gave a practical response (We intervene because we can). There’s truth to that.
Then you mix in Pres Clinton’s inaction in Africa and Biden’s Sudan statements and it gets dicey.
Peadawg
June 24th, 2009
11:03 am
I still remember Wooten’s (I think) quote the other day:
“President Barack Obama admits he “loses sleep worrying about the deficit.” Sort of like an alcoholic worrying that he drinks too much, as he reaches for another drink to drown his worries”
So true, so true
DB, Gwinnettian
June 24th, 2009
11:03 am
Paul, thanks for the fraking kind words.
You mentioned Barney Frank, so I’ll note here that the man’s introduced what appear to be two utterly sensible bills concerning marijuana for medical and personal use.
Perhaps BOR will think to bring this up tonight, although I doubt it, since it hasn’t seemed to generate much media interest, far as I can tell.
Paul
June 24th, 2009
11:05 am
UsinUK
Sorry, I didn’t answer you question as to what cultural values we impose:
Stop killing people you don’t like. Especially if you’re killing a lot of them. And it’s based on tribe or religion.
Jeff in Roswell
June 24th, 2009
11:05 am
Hey Jay,
Would you consider writing an article on how you have failed as a journalist? You just don’t have what it takes.
Bosch
June 24th, 2009
11:06 am
Hmmm. I take back what I said about Sanford – having respect for him and all for taking off and going hiking. This story is bizarre.
Argentina? What the hell?
Paul
June 24th, 2009
11:08 am
DB, Gwinnettian
He may bring it up. He’s not big on the medical marijuana or drug legalization thing. Likes to bring up San Francisco (which I think misses the frakkin’ point, as that’s merely an illustration of poorly worded and enforced laws). But that plays to his ‘traditionalist’ vs ’secular progressive’ thing.
TnGelding
June 24th, 2009
11:08 am
RAMBLE ON!!!
June 24th, 2009
10:58 am
We prefer Hawaii in the winter. There’s a better chance of one of our missiles striking Hawaii or the mainland than one from N. Korea. The lovely Sarah might get antsy and launch one.
Bosch
June 24th, 2009
11:08 am
Jeff in Roswell,
Really?
Paul
June 24th, 2009
11:08 am
USinUK
You have deciphered I write all that while smiling, right?
coach k
June 24th, 2009
11:09 am
must be a liberal, as far as I am concerned he had a good presidency for what he was handed, he was not a yes man like this idiot we have now
TnGelding
June 24th, 2009
11:10 am
Jeff in Roswell
June 24th, 2009
11:05 am
Jay’s laughing all the way to the bank. Writer extraordinaire.
USinUK
June 24th, 2009
11:12 am
Paul –
actually, you did answer it – and very well, thankyew
I see where you’re coming from – just don’t know that I agree. Saddam was no threat. he wasn’t commiting genocide. we had set up a no-fly zone which was protecting the Kurds. things were fine.
Bosnia, not so much. and it wasn’t just the leadership, it was the civilians, as well.
lastly – we didn’t try to “install democracy” in Bosnia like we (supposedly) are in Iraq.
but, I do see where you’re coming from – I’m not 100% with you, but I’m not 100% against, either …
JB
June 24th, 2009
11:13 am
I ‘ll take “W” any day over this left wing, big spending, world view, blame America, Pro choice up to the last day,socialist ex Muslim. Not a racist but a realist……….His skin color is fine….I can think of lot’s of people of color I would be proud to be President. I say this because if you don’t agree with him, that is what you are branded. That is weak……. If he were blue I wouldn’t agree with him. speaking of color, what’s with his purple lips ?
USinUK
June 24th, 2009
11:13 am
so, Peadawg … amuse me. tell me about the banks we’re taking over. make me laugh.
Jeff in Roswell
June 24th, 2009
11:14 am
Laughing all the way to the bank? Hahahahaha!!! You call what he makes “money”? You’re killing me over here!
Peadawg
June 24th, 2009
11:14 am
USinUK, I never mentioned taking over banks. that was someone else.
TnGelding
June 24th, 2009
11:14 am
coach k
June 24th, 2009
11:09 am
He was a yes man to Cheney. Congress should have brought him to his knees and the GOP could still be in the majority. Of course he wouldn’t have been reelected, either.