We may kill fewer Taliban, but it’s the right thing to do

This is a difficult but absolutely necessary change of policy in Afghanistan:

From the AP:

KABUL — The U.S. commander in Afghanistan will soon order U.S. and NATO forces to break away from fights with militants hiding among villagers, an official said Monday, announcing one of the strongest measures yet to protect Afghan civilians.

The most contentious civilian casualty cases in recent years occurred during battles in Afghan villages when U.S. airstrikes aimed at militants also killed civilians. American commanders say such deaths hurt their mission because they turn average Afghans against the government and international forces.

Afghan President Hamid Karzai has pressed U.S. forces for years to reduce civilian casualties, but his pleas have done little to stem the problem. The U.N. says U.S., NATO and Afghan forces killed 829 civilians in the Afghan war last year.

Gen. Stanley McChrystal, who took command of international forces in Afghanistan this month, has said his measure of effectiveness will be the “number of Afghans shielded from violence” — not the number of militants killed.

McChrystal will issue orders within days saying troops may attack insurgents hiding in Afghan houses if U.S. or NATO forces are in imminent danger, said U.S. military spokesman Rear Adm. Greg Smith.

“But if there is a compound they’re taking fire from and they can remove themselves from the area safely, without any undue danger to the forces, then that’s the option they should take,” Smith said. “Because in these compounds we know there are often civilians kept captive by the Taliban.”

It is difficult for any military commander to break off a fight that he has the capability to win, particularly if it means letting enemy fighters escape. And in the short term, the policy embraced by McChrystal does have the potential to cost American lives, just as its critics allege. Enemy fighters who escape because we did not employ our full firepower will be there to attack us another day, and that can be tough to swallow. For an American captain who just saw two of his people die, it can almost be unthinkable.

Yet it has to be done. Through some hard years in Iraq and Afghanistan, U.S. military leaders have been reminded that the goal of warfare is not to kill the enemy. The ultimate goal of warfare is to win.

And in irregular wars such as Afghanistan, winning requires that you bring the people to your side and keep them there. Gen. David Petraeus and other top American leaders argue convincingly that the most important step toward winning the loyalty and support of the local population is to secure their safety. All other concerns dim in comparison. McChrystal, a soldier’s soldier who led the effort to hunt down and kill of Abu Musab al-Zarqawi in Iraq, understands it as well.

It is true that the Taliban and al Qaida kill more local people — often on purpose — than we Americans do by accident. It doesn’t matter. The Taliban are what they are; nobody is fooled into thinking they are anything less than brutes, and that is particularly true of the Afghanis, who have long experience with Taliban cruelty.

But we claim to be different. We claim to be protectors. That role inherently sets a higher standard for our behavior. The fact that we are outsiders further complicates the matter. The death of an innocent Afghani at the hands of another Afghani is viewed differently than the death of an Afghani at American hands.

If we have to take more U.S. casualties in order to save the lives of Afghan civilians, we have to be willing to do so, because that’s only way to win a difficult war in which victory is still a long way off. If we aren’t willing to make that tradeoff, we ought to bring our people home.

I

___

135 comments Add your comment

Copyleft

June 23rd, 2009
1:25 pm

Or better yet, recall the soldiers entirely and switch to a technique that actually WORKS in fighting terrorism: intelligence gathering and policework.

You can’t use soldiers to fight terrorists, any more than you can order them to fight inflation. Wrong tool for the job.

Northern Songs Ltd

June 23rd, 2009
1:26 pm

If we’re not gong to take the fight to them, we may as well just get out altogether. Otherwise, hunker down for a very, very long slog.

I Report :-) You Whine :-(

June 23rd, 2009
1:33 pm

Yeah, but why do we have to announce it to the whole world?

Geez, do you libs think anything through?

Now all of our enemies will be surrounded by civilians, duh, freaking duh.

RealityKing

June 23rd, 2009
1:37 pm

Leaving terrorists alone in a community makes about as much sense as giving ACORN money to do a national census..

RealityKing

June 23rd, 2009
1:39 pm

Can you say torture houses in Iraq??

RealityKing

June 23rd, 2009
1:41 pm

How about over-guestimation of minorities??

DB, Gwinnettian

June 23rd, 2009
1:41 pm

It’s a good step.

However, unless and until Obama can tell me what Afghanistan is actually supposed to look like in (say) two years based on what we’re doing now, I’m inclined to agree with Copyleft @ 1.25. I’ll give the Administration some time, still, to show they know what they’re doing and make progress, but I remain extremely skeptical of a military solution over there.

DB, Gwinnettian

June 23rd, 2009
1:43 pm

If only Obama had the wise counsel of a RealityKing or an Andy!

Bosch

June 23rd, 2009
1:43 pm

Copyleft@ 1:25,

Amen!

jt

June 23rd, 2009
1:44 pm

Jay posited-

If we have to take more U.S. casualties in order to save the lives of Afghan civilians, we have to be willing to do so, because that’s only way to win a difficult war in which victory is still a long way off.

Jt responds- BS. Fire bombing Dresden and nuking Hiroshima is the way to win wars. Anything less is not really a war so our troops should come home.
Our soildiers and sailors deserve more than half-assness.

Class of '98

June 23rd, 2009
1:47 pm

If the “measure of effectiveness will be the ‘number of Afghans shielded from violence’”, we should just airdop Hostess Twinkies on them.

Asinine.

Joey

June 23rd, 2009
1:49 pm

Normal; On and old topic, if you are interested I just responded to your 9:42 under Jay’s Soltani post.

Spock Logic

June 23rd, 2009
1:50 pm

Of course, it is the right thing to do. It is the logical thing to do. Logically, collateral damage is never acceptable.

RealityKing

June 23rd, 2009
1:50 pm

Lets say that terrorists are holed up in your house with your wife and children. As night falls, you hear the blood curling screams of true torture.

Do you:
A. Pull back and hope they withdraw, leaving your forever damaged family in tact?
B. Rush the house and kill the bastards and hope some of your forever damaged family survive?

RealityKing

June 23rd, 2009
1:51 pm

Not to mention that A leads to another family being truely tortured..

Normal

June 23rd, 2009
1:55 pm

JT, your 1:44- I have to agree. If a war is not formally declared, with government approval, and totally unrestricted, then we don’t need to be there, period. Inane Rules of Engagement protects the bad guys and gets the good guys killed. Bring them home…NOW!

jt

June 23rd, 2009
1:59 pm

Normal -

It’s a friggin Vietnam redux.
Politicians calling the shots. Our youth getting shot.

WAR PIGS!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gbxfe7DMxVo

Paul

June 23rd, 2009
2:06 pm

Bosch: “Copyleft@ 1:25, Amen!”

Copyleft was just baiting neocons. ‘gathering intelligence’ is an administrative exercise. “police work is” well, heck, that means interviewing witnesses, sending stuff off to crime labs, reading rights and arresting people. FBI regiments to Afg. puhleeze.

Jay,

It’s actually brilliant. If American go to a full publicity campaign to let villagers know why they will/did withdraw.

Villagers may not like the result of what happens when Americans pull out. And leave them to the Taliban. It could develop into damned if you do, damned if you don’t.

But for this kind of war, at this level, it reduces the chance of killing those we need to turn things around.

booger

June 23rd, 2009
2:10 pm

Jay,

I’d be interested in knowing what you think will constitute victory in this war. I bring this up because your track record of what constitutes a loss or a victory is not that great. You were among the first to jump on the Harry Reid “War is Lost” bandwagon in Iraq.

Mrs. Godzilla

June 23rd, 2009
2:10 pm

General McCrystal is a “politician” calling the shots?

jt, must have misunderstood.

Mrs. Godzilla

June 23rd, 2009
2:12 pm

This a good thing.

Paul

June 23rd, 2009
2:20 pm

Mrs. Godzilla

Didja like my anti-Obama bias at 2:06?

Normal

June 23rd, 2009
2:20 pm

Joey, your 1:49…back at you, twice. Forgive the second post, I didn’t think the first one took…

RealityKing

June 23rd, 2009
2:21 pm

Personally, I would rather die with the terrorists than watch them move next door and unabashedly torture and rape my neighbors too..

Normal

June 23rd, 2009
2:23 pm

Miz G, I’m afraid that the politicans are calling the Generals shots..

RealityKing

June 23rd, 2009
2:23 pm

But thats just me.

Paul

June 23rd, 2009
2:25 pm

RealityKing

Calling in an air strike to take out the house where the terrorists are abusing villagers won’t win support.

But that’s not the issue. The issue is, if jihadists are using civilians for cover in a fight with American, Americans will not endanger civilians and will withdraw to resume the fight at a time and place of our choosing.

Sounds reasonable. And, it will draw a sharp distinction between us and the bad guys.

jt

June 23rd, 2009
2:26 pm

General McCrystal is a “politician” calling the shots?

He, ma’am, is certainly no soildier.

Can you imagine General McArthur measuring effectiveness on how many Japanese civilians he sheilds? He won(after the Navy bailed him out).

Mrs. Godzilla

June 23rd, 2009
2:30 pm

Paul

I find you anti-Obama bias pretty damn funny.

Insert many smiley faces here.

jt

why do you hate America? why do you hate our troops?

Paul

June 23rd, 2009
2:33 pm

Mrs. Godzilla

Just don’t stop by a school with ibuprofen for your headaches… and if the principal is leering… run!

Paul

June 23rd, 2009
2:35 pm

jt

Completely different kind of war, completely different circumstances.

To say Gen McCrystal is not a soldier…. strikes me as coming from the MoveOn Betrayus mindset.

Bosch

June 23rd, 2009
2:36 pm

Paul,

“Copyleft was just baiting neocons. ‘gathering intelligence’ is an administrative exercise. “police work is” well, heck, that means interviewing witnesses, sending stuff off to crime labs, reading rights and arresting people. FBI regiments to Afg. puhleeze”

Are you high?

RealityKing

June 23rd, 2009
2:36 pm

Read it again Paul..

“But if there is a compound they’re taking fire from and they can remove themselves from the area safely,..”

That’s not going to win Afgan support, these people know war and that is called running from a fight. As every commander on the ground knows.., and as Jay so rightly points out. What Vietnam did teach us was that when you stop listening to your commanders on the ground, you might as well be hiding with CopyLeft.

Normal

June 23rd, 2009
2:41 pm

JT, early in my era of Viet Nam, we were told that if we were ambushed, we had to radio back and request permission to return fire. The “out” was that if we could not establish comms, we could use “Firepower as necessary to disengage”. I had a Chinese version of a Nambu 9mm hanging on a lanyard by the radio, and I would pick it up and fire a round into the radio. I can’t tell you how many times that radio gave its life to save ours, but I should have put it in for a CMH. Heh, heh

Mrs. Godzilla

June 23rd, 2009
2:42 pm

….And what we are learning now is that some wingers listen to the Generals on the ground……only if it said General agrees with winger
idealogy….

Normal

June 23rd, 2009
2:43 pm

BOSCH: The proper term for Korea, ‘Nam and the rest of ‘em is “Police Action”.

Normal

June 23rd, 2009
2:44 pm

MIZ G: Your 2:42…Spot on…

Paul

June 23rd, 2009
2:46 pm

Bosch

Well… maybe….

Think it through. At least as I read it. Pull all military out of Afghanistan. Okay, Iraq, too. No military response against any future jihadist attacks, anywhere. Instead, we gather information and pursue police work.

The point of that is…?

RealityKing

Given Gen McCrystal’s background in counterinsurgency and nontraditional warfare (and considering he was given unprecedented authority to clean house and bring in his own people) I’ll wager a lot this was his policy. Not something imposed by Obama administration civilians that he rolled on.

Does it really strike you as the best strategy to be so reactive to what jihadists do? To be so predictable they can set up a situation and we’ll do the same thing, each time? Have you thought how this may cause jihadists to redo their operations? Or what it might spark for the villagers, similar to the Iranian Sunnis who got sick of AQ excesses and sided with us?

Normal

June 23rd, 2009
2:50 pm

Jay
We may kill fewer Taliban, but it’s the right thing to do
———-
You’ve got to change “it’s the right thing to do” to “it’s the correct thing to do”.

You’re confusing Whiner/Brutus

Bosch

June 23rd, 2009
2:50 pm

Paul,

“No military response against any future jihadist attacks, anywhere. Instead, we gather information and pursue police work.

The point of that is…?”

That’s not what I meant. Of course we use the military, just not in a shock and awe capacity. Like we did after Vietnam and before W took over with his incompetencies, and maybe minus Bosnia.

josef nix

June 23rd, 2009
2:51 pm

We more than likely will turn tail and run from Aghanistan for one simple reason: they don’t have anything we want in terms of resources and ideology wears thin very quickly.

Paul

June 23rd, 2009
2:52 pm

I think military thought has moved past the “we had to destroy the village in order to save it” mindset.

Paul

June 23rd, 2009
2:54 pm

Bosch

Okay. But that’s not how I’ve read CopyLeft’s posts. So I see you two has having a different view.

Normal

June 23rd, 2009
2:56 pm

Hey Josef, School out? About Aghanistan, you are right. I think g-d
used it as a scrap pile when he was a construction contractor…

Bosch

June 23rd, 2009
3:00 pm

Paul,

So? Are you high? It’s like being pregnant, there’s no maybe.

Hey, guess what? I have a new favorite show. And of course, no show will EVER replace our show (silent pause for reverent reflection), but guess which one it is – considering the books we’ve been reading. It comes on HBO.

suck my thumb

June 23rd, 2009
3:01 pm

Ok,if I’m reading this right,one option if fired upon is to put tail between legs and run. Come on if the US Government is going to put our young Men/Women in front of harms way PLEASE don’t tie their hands behind their backs.Down side of war is the innocent loss of lives.

Paul

June 23rd, 2009
3:03 pm

off topic

Bosch

Serious question. Book three. Think they’ll shoot the movie battle scene as written? Given the age range of the audience? It’d be R for sure. Heck, even an accurate rendition of the wolves would make it R.

Paul

June 23rd, 2009
3:08 pm

suck

No, that’s not the policy. Many civilian casualties are avoidable.

If civilians are endangered (you remember, the folks we’re there to protect) and if we can move back without danger, then we do it. In that case the purpose of the fight is to kill jihadists. Not to get to trapped Americans. Or to go get a wounded guy. Just kill jihadists. So we just suspend operations for a while, then reengage when it’s better for us.

Bosch

I don’t get HBO.

But I did see an ad for Warehouse 13 on SciFi that looks unchallengingly fun.

Bosch

June 23rd, 2009
3:09 pm

Paul,

Of course that’s serious. You need to watch True Blood. No, I don’t, but they’ll make it viscious. Have you ever noticed that we are so weird? LOL!!! Think about the birthin’ scene in Book 4 – ewwwwwww.

Paul

June 23rd, 2009
3:14 pm

Bosch

I’m just starting book 4, if you don’t mind.

Weird? Just ’cause there’s two on this blog with some semblance of normalcy doesn’t make for weird…. well, okay, RW if you include Heroes… and one or two others if you include another show…

Bosch

June 23rd, 2009
3:16 pm

Paul,

Oh. Sorry. What’s wrong with me? RW’s a werewolf – perfectly normal. Where’s Midori?

I miss that show. TV just isn’t the same anymore.

TnGelding

June 23rd, 2009
3:17 pm

Copyleft

June 23rd, 2009
1:25 pm

Amen!

I certainly agree with Jay’s last paragraph, as well. But I’m thinking nothing is going to change. In the heat of battle will the policy be adhered to? Get UBL, preferably alive, and get out!

Dollars for Sense

June 23rd, 2009
3:20 pm

So, big pharma actually pays some of the generic drug manufacturers not to make drugs so they can control the market and keep prices up and rob the tax payers even more. Ah Yes. Capitalism at its finest.

josef nix

June 23rd, 2009
3:26 pm

NORMAL–Yeah, school’s out for the day. Got a bunch of little kindergarteners I get to learn from. They tell the truth, you know, and have no real agenda. Summer is the only time I get to spend the day with these little ones. “Juanito, did you hit Mario?” “Yessir.” “Why?” “I don’t like him.” “Why not?” “I just don’t.” They’ll grow up to be good Democrats and Republicans.

On Afghanistan, you said:

“I think g-d used it as a scrap pile when he was a construction contractor…”

That pretty much sums up the way I feel about it.

Of course, though, the Unmentionable says that they do, indeed, have something we want–opium. He says if we really want to bring order from chaos, send in the Mafia.

getalife

June 23rd, 2009
3:27 pm

I guess the other General that was replaced did not like this idea.

Get obl and get out before we end up like the USSR.

It’s another loser like Iraq.

Paul

June 23rd, 2009
3:35 pm

getalife

Why bother with OBL?

TNGelding

OBL alive would be a nightmare. Can you imagine processing him at Bagram, reading him his rights, then watching all the motions to dismiss because due process wasn’t followed?

Probably couldn’t get close enough, anyway. Just close enough for a Hellfire. That’d work. Heck, we could even laminate a Miranda warning on the casing.

Normal

June 23rd, 2009
3:36 pm

Josef, Send in the Mafia? I don’t think they could handle that much order…

suck my thumb

June 23rd, 2009
3:36 pm

Paul,I disagree. I’ve talked to a number of returning Irag War Vets (Thanks again by the way), and they stated matter of factly that because of this political war they were put on the defensive more times than not. They said offensive operations were almost nil and they felt like sitting ducks. They were trained one way in the states then trained totally different over there. If what is suggested is the way the US wants to proceed, I agree there will be far less enemy killed and possibly more of our Men/Women killed. I hope I’m wrong,but based on conversations I don’t think so.

Normal

June 23rd, 2009
3:38 pm

Paul, I personally want to see OBL’s head on a pike, displayed at ground zero.

Copyleft

June 23rd, 2009
3:39 pm

RealityKing seems to be living in a black-or-white reality.

When someone suggests pulling out troops, he reads it as “Run away and hide.”

When someone talks about pursuing terrorism with law-enforcement tactics rather than military maneuvers, he hears it as “Leave them alone.”

It’s an interesting Reality he’s King of, isn’t it? (grin)

Normal

June 23rd, 2009
3:41 pm

Off topic here, any of you sci fi nuts ever read Simon Hawke’s Time War”
series. The first was “The Ivanhoe Gambit”…Anybody?

Paul

June 23rd, 2009
3:41 pm

smt

Well, even Afg isn’t Iran. And Gen McCrystal’s not like the traditional Army generals who presided for so many years over the mess in Iraq. Heck, those guys got promoted!

My ‘gut’ says it’s a good move. It sure can’t hurt (great, now someone’s gonna come up with ‘if we don’t kill them when we can they’ll just return and…”).

Normal

What are you, a reincarnated Mongol?

Normal

June 23rd, 2009
3:42 pm

Copyleft….I’ve often wondered what reality he is king of, too….

Normal

June 23rd, 2009
3:44 pm

What are you, a reincarnated Mongol?
—————–
Maybe…I just think it would be poetic justice…He could look over
what he had wrought…ya think?

Normal

June 23rd, 2009
3:46 pm

Headin’ out…to the torture chamber. WARNING! I’ll check back later…just sayin’

Joey

June 23rd, 2009
3:46 pm

Normal, Just posted a response. Will not be back until a.m.

Shawny

June 23rd, 2009
3:49 pm

These two pieces are in conflict:

“The Taliban are what they are; nobody is fooled into thinking they are anything less than brutes, and that is particularly true of the Afghanis, who have long experience with Taliban cruelty.” and

“…such deaths hurt their mission because they turn average Afghans against the government and international forces.”

If the Afghanis have a long experience with their cruelty, and the attempt at eradication of such cruel brutes is to blame for innocent lives lost, then why don’t those same downtrodden turn against those that are the problem, the Taliban? What is wrong with this picture?

There needs to be a strategy to get the Afghanis against their true oppressors.

RB from Gwinnett

June 23rd, 2009
3:54 pm

Which one of you dumbarse liberals can tell the difference between a civilian and a terrorist dressed up like a civilian? Especially in the brief moments you have to make a life and death decision about your own life and death? This decision is DUMB and will result in the death of our soldiers. And then to tell our enemy about our plans? WTF? How dumb can we get? With that as a strategy, we may as well pack up and leave while our troops are still breathing.

Pathetic.

Copyleft

June 23rd, 2009
3:59 pm

RB: The point is, our soldiers can’t tell the difference either… which makes effective military action impossible.

This decision is long overdue. Soldiers don’t have the tools or training needed to fight terrorism, any more than dentists or park rangers do.

But you’re right–we SHOULD pack up and leave while our troops are still breathing.

Intelligent! What a great change.

Normal

June 23rd, 2009
3:59 pm

Joey, I answered, See you in the morning…

RB from Gwinnett

June 23rd, 2009
4:02 pm

BTW, when is obama going to deliver OBL? I thought the only reason we didn’t have him yet was because of W’s incompetence? Surely someone as majestic as obama wouldn’t take more than a few days to find him, eh? Maybe Jay could drag up a few of you libs comments to that effect from the archives. I know, you’ll make excuses for your beloved Obama, but you’ll never admit you were unfair to Bush. Partisan hacks.

getalife

June 23rd, 2009
4:02 pm

“Why bother with OBL?”

Come on Paul,

Don’t be like w.

For closure for the fallen families and justice.

Paul

June 23rd, 2009
4:11 pm

getalife

Good reason. Just not convinced the way to ‘get’ him won’t be extremely costly.

Good luck tonight.

But not too much!

RB from Gwinnett

June 23rd, 2009
4:11 pm

“Soldiers don’t have the tools or training needed to fight terrorism” Copy, that’s where you and I disagree. They have the tools and the training needed to get the job done, but their hands are tied with stupid policies like this one. As Shawney pointed out, our strategy needs to be one of turning the people against the taliban and warning them “if they’re hiding among you and fire at us, YOU are likely to be killed and we don’t want that” Turn them in.

How friggin hard is it to turn people against a brutal band of murderous thugs using their neighbors as human shields? Do you fools think the afgan people are too dumb to see that happening? Play the game presented to you and play it to win. Period. This mish mash of liberal feel-good crap is getting the wrong people killed.

You people make me wonder why we even have nuclear weapons any longer because I truly don’t think you libs have the fortitude to use them ever again. May as well give them to PETA.

Feeling good about other crap

June 23rd, 2009
4:20 pm

RB reminds me of why I did not vote Republican.

jt

June 23rd, 2009
4:20 pm

Mrs. Godzilla

June 23rd, 2009
2:30 pm
Paul

I find you anti-Obama bias pretty damn funny.

Insert many smiley faces here.

jt

why do you hate America? why do you hate our troops?

I advocate bringing the troops home. You claim its all good.
Why would you think I am the one that hates them?

Any how- Here is some gems about General McCrystal-

He obviously makes serious judgement mistakes.
At the beginning of the Iraq War in March 2003, he was serving in the Pentagon as a member of the Joint Staff, where he had been vice director of operations, J-3, since July 2002.[4] McChrystal was selected to deliver nationally televised Pentagon briefings on U.S. military operations in Iraq, including one in April 2003 shortly after the fall of Baghdad in which he announced, “I would anticipate that the major combat engagements are over.”[3][5][6]

This is the worst, in that he displayed dishonesty.
McChrystal was also criticized for his role in the aftermath of the 2004 death by friendly fire of Ranger and former professional football player Pat Tillman. The day after approving a posthumous Silver Star citation for Tillman that included the phrase “in the line of devastating enemy fire,” McChrystal sent an urgent memo warning senior government officials not to quote the citation in public speeches because it “might cause public embarrassment” if Tillman had in fact been killed by friendly fire, as McChrystal suspected. McChrystal was one of eight officers recommended for discipline by a subsequent Pentagon investigation but the Army declined to take action against him.[3][11][12]

And keeping with politics, the little guys take the fall.
McChrystal’s Zarqawi unit, Task Force 6-26, became notorious for its interrogation methods, particularly at Camp Nama, where it was accused of abusing detainees. After the Abu Ghraib torture and prisoner abuse scandal became public in April 2004, 34 members of the task force were disciplined; five Army Rangers were ultimately convicted of prisoner abuse at Camp Nama.[3][9][10]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stanley_A._McChrystal

DoggoneGA

June 23rd, 2009
4:22 pm

“You people make me wonder why we even have nuclear weapons any longer because I truly don’t think you libs have the fortitude to use them ever again”

I pray to God you are right…that they are NEVER used again.

Bosch

June 23rd, 2009
4:22 pm

“You people make me wonder why we even have nuclear weapons any longer because I truly don’t think you libs have the fortitude to use them ever again”

Sigh.

RB,

You think we really need to bring out the nukes? On who particularly?

jt

June 23rd, 2009
4:24 pm

Two dead Georgia boys dead with two dead civilians. Not effective.

Two dead Georgia boys dead with no dead civilians. Very effective.

Stupid and evil. If I had a kid over there, I would talk him into going AWOL.

Mrs. Godzilla

June 23rd, 2009
4:25 pm

RB

Wouldn’t you prefer that no one, anywhere ever had what you call “fortitude” to use nukes again?

Or do you really want to rain down death and destruction on the entire planet?

FinnMcCool

June 23rd, 2009
4:26 pm

Robert Parry:

The usual knock on government programs is that they’re not as efficient as the private sector, which we’re told can provide the same product for less money and with higher quality. Thus, it should be no big deal when the public and private collide because the private sector should prevail.

However, in providing health insurance, those rules clearly don’t apply, which is why congressional Republicans and so-called “centrist” Democrats are going to such lengths to deny the American people access to a public option on health insurance.

http://www.truthout.org/062309T

DoggoneGA

June 23rd, 2009
4:27 pm

“You think we really need to bring out the nukes? On who particularly?”

People like RB don’t care who. They just want to see the big bang, so they can feel all powerful and stuff.

Mrs. Godzilla

June 23rd, 2009
4:27 pm

jt

some American you are…..

dis’ the generals and teach treason to your kids.

Somalia is calling you…..

Paul

June 23rd, 2009
4:28 pm

jt

Major combat engagements were over. Against Saddam’s conventional military. Which is how we were configured to fight. And we won that. Which is what the fall of Baghdad was all about.

The jihadist stuff (include the Sunnis and Shias here) came later. Libs didn’t see that coming, either.

But tell me… how many ‘missteps’ is one allowed in a 30-year career? None? Even guys who operate in the covert world? So who you gonna have left?

Maybe Obama’s on to something, with the whole ‘go national after a couple years on the stage’ thing.

Be that as it may, Mrs. G asked why you hate the troops. Then you cited several items about Gen McCrystal. That’s supposed to convince us you like him or the military?

Bosch

June 23rd, 2009
4:28 pm

DoggoneGA

What people like RB also don’t realize is that if we do decide to bring out the nukes – others will bring them out on us. And as Mrs. G. so eloquently put – will bring death and destruction across the entire planet, but cie la vie!

FinnMcCool

June 23rd, 2009
4:29 pm

blogging from the beach….technology is good, life is good, this margarita is cold, chickas everywhere…(oops my wife read that over my shoulder)

Gotta go!

Paul

June 23rd, 2009
4:29 pm

I gotta remember there’s an ‘h’ in chrystal -

DoggoneGA

June 23rd, 2009
4:30 pm

“The jihadist stuff (include the Sunnis and Shias here) came later. Libs didn’t see that coming, either.”

I don’t know which “Libs” YOU talk to…but *I* knew it was coming before the first American boot stepped off the plane onto Iraqi soil.

josef nix

June 23rd, 2009
4:30 pm

NORMAL–”Paul, I personally want to see OBL’s head on a pike, displayed at ground zero.”

Okay, Vir… but Zathrus no good at thinking…. :-)

RealityKing

June 23rd, 2009
4:30 pm

Whats up with that Jay??

RealityKing
Your comment is awaiting moderation.

Bosch

June 23rd, 2009
4:32 pm

Doggone,

“I don’t know which “Libs” YOU talk to…but *I* knew it was coming before the first American boot stepped off the plane onto Iraqi soil”

Uh, yeah this one too – and all the other “libs” I know knew it as well.

DoggoneGA

June 23rd, 2009
4:33 pm

“What people like RB also don’t realize is that if we do decide to bring out the nukes – others will bring them out on us”

I remember when we first got into Afghanistan…the people calling out for us to “nuke ‘em back to the stone age”…until someone commented “they’re already there”

jt

June 23rd, 2009
4:35 pm

Paul- You asked

But tell me… how many ‘missteps’ is one allowed in a 30-year career? None? Even guys who operate in the covert world? So who you gonna have left?

A “misstep” is not the same as dishonesty. An OFFICER is never allowed to be dishonest.

RB from Gwinnett

June 23rd, 2009
4:40 pm

Bosch, it’s not a matter of who, it’s a matter of some of you being so concerned about collateral damage that you would never use the weapon under any circumstances. Having the miltary might we do is what keeps those who would have us dissapear from the face of the earth at bay. Knowing we don’t have the fortitude to use our might invites them to try. I know you think if we leave the rest of the world alone they’ll leave us alone, Bosch, but you are naive. They won’t. There are Chavez’ all over the planet who would love to rule over us too. No fear mongering there, libs, just the reality of the world we live in.

RW-(the original)

June 23rd, 2009
4:40 pm

This strategy might have had some merit until some idiot announced it. Talk about an engraved invitation for Taliban fighters to immediately move into every Afghan village they can get to. And don’t think for a second there won’t be a pile of dead civilians we’ll get blamed for after we back off either.

Bosch

June 23rd, 2009
4:40 pm

And I have to say – going back downstairs a few threads that I totally missed out on – I have alot of respect for Gov. Sanford to just drop everything and go hiking. It can really clear the head.

I hope things work out well for him.

jt

June 23rd, 2009
4:42 pm

Paul-

As far as hating the troops. You and Mrs. G see no problem with them being in Aphgan. I would like to see them come home.

Now who hates them?

number1ninja

June 23rd, 2009
4:42 pm

Why is Obama even trying to salvage that mission? It’s obvious they don’t want us there, would we if the situation was reversed? As bad as Bush was, nobody wanted Jintao coming over and telling us how to run the show. They’re just like us, they’ll take the worst of their own over almost anyone else any day of the week. The only thing we can do is stop p***ing people off to the point where they would deliberately end their own lives just to get a piece of us. Of course, then we couldn’t hog a third of the world’s resources…..

DoggoneGA

June 23rd, 2009
4:43 pm

“There are Chavez’ all over the planet who would love to rule over us too. No fear mongering there, libs, just the reality of the world we live in.”

Typical Con philosphy: Do unto others before they do unto me.

Bosch

June 23rd, 2009
4:44 pm

RB,

No, I’m not naive, if we use a nuclear weapon against someone – we will have total apocalypse on this planet. It would be national suicide – for any country to use one.

And yes, RB, sorry, but this is where we just have to disagree – collateral damage is very important to me. The killing of innocent people is not an option for me, and I hope it will never be an option for the military.