A sign that the terrorists have won
I generally have a pretty high opinion of the American people and their ability over the long term to do the right thing, even the brave thing. But news like this does make me despair a little:
WASHINGTON — Americans are overwhelmingly opposed to closing the detention center for suspected terrorists at Guantanamo Bay and moving some of the detainees to prisons on U.S. soil, a USA TODAY/Gallup Poll finds.
By more than 2-1, those surveyed say Guantanamo shouldn’t be closed. By more than 3-1, they oppose moving some of the accused terrorists housed there to prisons in their own states.
The findings underscore the difficult task President Obama faces in convincing those at home that he should follow through on his campaign promise to close the prison in Cuba, especially in the absence of a plan of where the prisoners would go.
“Coming up on eight years after Sept. 11, fear remains, and fear is politically potent,” says political scientist Paul Freedman of the University of Virginia, who studies public opinion. “When it comes to the issue of terrorism … people are inclined to err on the side of that fear.”
The idea that these people are some kind of evil supermen too dangerous to set foot on U.S. soil or to be held in SuperMax prisons is simply foolish. It suggests that as a nation we have lost our nerve, that the years in which we were repeatedly told to be very very afraid of this ragtag bunch of people have had an impact on our psyche and our common sense.
Compared to the Cold War Soviets and the Nazis and Japanese of World War II, Islamic terrorists are pikers. Yet somehow — with the assistance of many of our own leaders — they have cowed us, the children and grandchildren of generations that saved the world, into abject fear.
I find it bizarre and discouraging.
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271 comments Add your comment
N-GA
June 2nd, 2009
12:14 pm
Perhaps the poll choices need to be: 1) Let them all go, or 2) Try them in a court of law and put the convicted men in Supermax while freeing the men found innocent.
A third choice could be to escort them to the gates of Guantanamo and let Castro have them.
BDAtlanta
June 2nd, 2009
12:16 pm
Leadership through fear. That will be the definition of the Bush Administration.
You don’t lead your people through fear. Dictators do that.
And some idiots voted them into office not once, but twice?
I Rule You :-)/ You Whine :-(
June 2nd, 2009
12:19 pm
we were repeatedly told to be very very afraid of this ragtag bunch of people have had an impact on our psyche and our common sense.
Nice choice of words bookman, an impact on a couple of big buildings full of people?
Americans are also overwhelmingly against Obozo owning GM, government porkulus spending, tax increases, just about everything you democrats are doing.
You have done more for the Republican Party than we could have ever have hoped for.
Thanks.
S GA dem
June 2nd, 2009
12:26 pm
Whiner, you should step out of your little world and take a look around. Your numbers are dwindling. The GOP is wobbling, looking for a soft place to lay down and die. I feel a knockout punch on the horizon for your grand ole party. And I’ll laugh and laugh and laugh.
Bookman is dead on with his observations. Are we the country that saved Europe from the Nazis just 60 years ago? Or are we the country full of cowards that can’t hold their water when confronted with danger? Are we wearing the white hats, the black hats, or are we the damsel in distress?
Mrs. Godzilla
June 2nd, 2009
12:29 pm
I’m not sweating it.
President Obama has said over and over that the American people will understand an issue if it is laid out correctly and calmly.
This too shall pass.
I make stuff up/You ignore me
June 2nd, 2009
12:30 pm
If I recall corectly, the US already has over 300 terrorists in US prisons system. Why the big stink about a few more?
getalife
June 2nd, 2009
12:30 pm
Well, the libs use common sense and think there should be a plan before they do anything.
The cons mental disorder includes being scared of everything so that will not change but the numbers will when they have a plan.
One thing is for sure, the cons will never man up and are scared to death of everything.
Except the American taliban. They support those terrorists.
Go figure.
S GA dem
June 2nd, 2009
12:32 pm
Mrs G – I hope you’re right and common sense prevails.
Swami Dave
June 2nd, 2009
12:36 pm
It would seem as if the American people are simply smarter than the kook liberal fringe leading the Democratic Party. It takes little to no intelligence at all to pick a better place to incarcerate these murderers and their sympathizers.
a) On an island in a isolated, secure facility separated from American soil by a 90 mile shark-infested strait…..or b) moving them from that facility to American soil into American prisons where they would be afforded contact and opportunity to recruit among individuals who have already exhibited a predisposition to anti-social behavior.
Elections have consequences & this situation is simply one of them since America elected a President beholden to the fringe left idiots of his own party.
Just wait till the good-intentioned, flowery rhetoric about health care “security” gives way to the collectivist’s implementations requiring increasing costs (aka -higher taxes-) and limiting the availability and quality of care (aka -rationing-).
Sorry, reality simply doesn’t work like liberal fantasy land!
-SD
ty webb
June 2nd, 2009
12:37 pm
jay,
How is it also not using fear to say that by keeping Gitmo open, we are creating more terrorists or “evil supermen”. You seem to be fine with using fear. Just only by your “team”. If these people are not that dangerous, why are we supposed to worry about creating more of them?
BDAtlanta
June 2nd, 2009
12:37 pm
You have done more for the Republican Party than we could have ever have hoped for. Thanks
Yeah, that’s readily apparent. Mwuahahahahahaha
Democrats, putting the Republicans back in their place after all their talk of “Permanent Majority”. Muahahahahahahaha
I Rule You :-)/ You Whine :-(
June 2nd, 2009
12:37 pm
Release them into Forsyth County and let’s see who’s “scared.”
Hahahahahaha, bozos.
Paul
June 2nd, 2009
12:39 pm
BDAtlanta 12:16
[[Leadership through fear. That will be the definition of the Bush Administration.]]
I believe the baton has passed from the Bush Administration to the Democratic House and Senate.
————-
‘Course, a question is, why close Gitmo? I believe Pres Obama has stated it has a lot to do with how the world sees America.
Maybe most Americans, for all the hoopla last election, really don’t care all that much how the world sees us? Could that be a reason more than “fear” even though it’s not a reason put out by the Democratic Congress?
If the objective is to incarcerate them, maybe Gitmo is a good place. They get more humane treatment there than American citizens in Supermax get, so that’s a plus for the detainees. Plus, Democratic lawmakers wouldn’t have to worry about the International Red Cross, World Citizens for Humane Treatment and all the other coming to their districts to document cases of abuse and inhumane treatment. Can’t have that, can we? Plus, it makes it easier for the Obama Administration to counter the ACLU in court now that Pres Obama thinks that maybe some of these guys really should be held indefinitely without trial.
Dave R
June 2nd, 2009
12:39 pm
Gee, getalife, if the numbers are 3-1 opposed to moving prisoners here, and 2-1 against closing Gitmo, AND according to all you libs out here that the GOP comprises only 20% of the electorate, there sure are a lot of libs that are scared of everything out there, right?
But don’t let FACTS get in the way of a good rant, getalife.
And Bookman, where’s the column about domestic terrorism when it is a black Muslim killing soldiers at a recruiting center? You were sure quick to pounce on a white guy killing an abortion doctor as being domestic terrorism.
Of course, maybe it’s only a hate crime when a white guy commits it against a protected class.
BDAtlanta
June 2nd, 2009
12:42 pm
S GA Dem,
It’s more like a bunch of cowards with big screen TV’s to null the pain of fear.
America’s leaders (BushCo) peed their pants. And you know why they did? Because they got caught with their pants down, sleeping on the job. Like any fool who gets caught in such a way, they have to cover up their incapacity to lead. Make it look like it wasn’t their fault so they get all blusterous with fearmongering in hopes they can scare everyone so we wouldn’t wonder how this slipped by them.
That’s why Cheney is so verbal now. He has to be – he’s trying to save his family name.
Redneck Convert
June 2nd, 2009
12:45 pm
Well, I ain’t afraid of no Terrist in Gitmo, long as I got my anti-tank weapon and the two machine guns I use just for hunting and self defense. I’ll just make sure to deadbolt the trailer door at night and keep a eye out for people wearing a towel on their head. But if I got my druthers I’d druther all of them stay in Gitmo and not be hauled here to prison where they could pick the locks and take out after our women.
If they got loose over here our Support the Troops ribbons on our cars and trucks would be a dead giveaway about who they should take out after. We wouldn’t stand a chance. They would just ignore the libruls with the Give Peace a Chance or He Lied, Thousands Died bumper stickers and their ugly women. It would be like hog killing time in the mountains.
And that’s why I think we need to have a little axident in Gitmo. Somebody in charge needs to leave a gate or two axidently open and give them all a chance to walk out until our troops open up with their machine guns blazing. I ain’t worried none about a few ax murderers and serial killers that are locked away in our prisons. But these Gitmo Terrists just give me the willys. Some librul judge might could let them loose if they moved here and some real godly people here could end up with a Terrist as a member of the fambly.
Have a good p.m. everybody.
Logical Dude
June 2nd, 2009
12:46 pm
Well, Gitmo was created as a loophole in prisoner rights and to get around Geneva convention requirements. If we housed them “locally” where they were captured, then we have POW limitations. If we house them in the US, we have certain rights given to those in custody.
Housing them in Guantanamo gives the US a way to hold people indefinitely without trial and without recourse for those imprisoned. THAT is why it must be closed. We should try them all in a fair court, and imprison the guilty and release the not guilty.
Who can argue against that?
BDAtlanta
June 2nd, 2009
12:49 pm
Ireland in the 70’s and 80’s went through terrorist bombings on a monthly basis. Europe, same. Middle-east, same (and still going on!)
We get hit twice in 10 years (not including our internal terrorists) and we freak the F out.
That, my friends, boils down to poor leadership from the top – totally incompetent leadership.
Bush = Worst.Presiden.Ever.
George, Abe, Teddy and Franklin would be rolling over in their graves.
Paul
June 2nd, 2009
12:50 pm
Logical Dude
What rights would you grant them? Which would you exclude? Would you use a military tribunal system? Would you rely on US criminal courts? Would you do something new?
getalife
June 2nd, 2009
12:50 pm
Well Dave,
You can count on 30% cons to say no and be scared.
They can’t play soccer or get a tropical breeze at supermax, so cons are acually going weak on terrorism just like they do for the American taliban.
If they are so bad and a menace to society, they belong in a tougher inviroment.
Man up dave.
Paul
June 2nd, 2009
12:52 pm
BDAtlanta
So why is Pres Obama continuing so many of Pres Bush’s policies? Expanding some, in point of fact?
Doggone/GA
June 2nd, 2009
12:53 pm
“So why is Pres Obama continuing so many of Pres Bush’s policies? Expanding some, in point of fact?”
Because some things simply can’t be changed over night…and because even a stopped clock is right twice a day.
mike
June 2nd, 2009
12:53 pm
Maybe some folks recognize that moving detainees from Gitmo to Supermax without making any change to their legal standing is mere window dressing. Isn’t the issue supposed to be about judicial process and civil rights? Who cares about the geography if the underlying issues are unresolved?
BTW: Wailing that “the terrorists have won” because the majority of Americans don’t support your specific views is pathetic.
Mrs. Godzilla
June 2nd, 2009
12:54 pm
The Germans didn’t keep Auschwitz or Buchenwald open, now did they?
We must close Gitmo.
RetLTC
June 2nd, 2009
12:56 pm
“You have done more for the Republican Party than we could have ever have hoped for. Thanks”
At least 20% of the populace would tend to agree. Moron!
booger
June 2nd, 2009
12:59 pm
Paul,
Bingo. Why on earth is Obama so focused on closing Gitmo. If he thinks prisioners are being mistreated there, fix it. That would cost nothing and avoid a big hoopla here.
All of this worry about how the world thinks of us is totally overblown. I lived and worked in three different countries in Europe, and I assure you people there think about Americans just about as often as we think about them. Honestly, How often do you wring your hands in concern over something France or England is doing. Do you really think the French or the Brits are spending a lot of time worrying about what we are doing. Knowing them fairly well I suspect what is on there minds when they think about us is our arrogance in thinking that they really care that much about whats going on this side of the pond.
If you want to know why this rush to close Gitmo, follow the politics. Mr. Soros and his band of merry followers want it closed. Obama still owes them big for his win, so he is willing to spend 50 or a 100 million of our tax dollars to do it.
ty webb
June 2nd, 2009
1:00 pm
gitmo and concentration camps? Are you kidding me?
BDAtlanta
June 2nd, 2009
1:01 pm
Obama is getting his elephants in line:
Obama Picks GOP Congressman For Top Post
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/06/02/john-mchugh-gop-congressm_n_210192.html
Mrs. Godzilla
June 2nd, 2009
1:03 pm
nope, ty not kidding
Dave R
June 2nd, 2009
1:04 pm
Keep denying reality, getalife. Keep denying reality.
Get a clue. It ain’t just conservatives; you’re just not man enough to admit you’re wrong.
booger
June 2nd, 2009
1:04 pm
Logical dude,
I for one can be against that. If you don’t like whats going on there, change it. You do not have to change the location. You can apply the same rules as they would recieve on US soil, and do it without costing millions of dollars.
getalife
June 2nd, 2009
1:05 pm
Somewhere, obl is laughing and saying told ya.
There is no doubt he has changed our country for the worse.
BDAtlanta
June 2nd, 2009
1:05 pm
Paul, I’m talking about leading by fear.
I haven’t heard any orange or red level alerts in a while. I think our citizenry figured out after 2-3 years that that was a ruse to get the news folk off of the weekly scandals in the Bush admin.
I haven’t heard Obama refuse to talk with Iran and Pakistan while just standing around and calling them names (axis of evil)
Paul
June 2nd, 2009
1:06 pm
Doggone GA
The point was not that Pres Obama is trying to stop some of Pres Bush’s policies, it’s that he’s continuing or expanding them. With a couple of court cases, taking a harder line, in fact.
Mrs. Godzilla
Please tell me you had a momentary lapse in comparisons at 12:54………..
booger
Hmmm. I don’t think some of the condemnatory European citizenry know much about their recent history in treating prisoners. IRA, for example?
Dave R
June 2nd, 2009
1:07 pm
Well, Mrs. G., if you’re not kidding you’re certainly delusional. Absolutely ZERO comparison between Gitmo and concentration camps, but that would take someone who actually studied history to know that. (or someone not brainwashed in a Government school system her entire life)
RB from Gwinnett
June 2nd, 2009
1:07 pm
Jay, who exactly is it Obama is trying to make happy by closing Gitmo? And I don’t want to hear “world leaders” from you. I’d like names/countries.
ty webb
June 2nd, 2009
1:08 pm
Mrs. Godzilla,
Okay. That comparison doesn’t do much for your side’s arguement, but knock yourself out.
Brad Steel
June 2nd, 2009
1:08 pm
Unlike Bookman, I’m not impressed with the American electorate or the opinion of the masses. For god’s sake America’s pathetic mass taste include: American Idol as the #1 show on TV, Titanic as the highest grossing movie – ever, Fox has the highest rated new shows, NASCAR is a popular juggernaut, McDonalds salt-n-fat menu makes it the most successful restaurant in the country, and Top 40 radio has been consitenty retched for years.
Obama has the wisdom to ignore this and many other inevitable popular opinion polls. Screw the polls – lead, please.
BDAtlanta
June 2nd, 2009
1:09 pm
Another example of leading by fear and incompetence:
Daily changing of the alert levels because we had to fear these terrorists from the MidEast….at the same time as they try to lease the operating rights to our ports to companies from – you guessed it – the middle east.
Paul
June 2nd, 2009
1:09 pm
BDAtlanta
I was referring to the thread topic – Gitmo and detainees. Since it’s the Democratic Congress who’s obstructing Pres Obama and giving the ‘fear’ reasons to their constituents, it seems, as I said, the baton has passed.
Mrs. Godzilla
Would you care to provide an example or two on the similarities and differences between a WWII German concentration camp and Gitmo?
Logical Dude
June 2nd, 2009
1:11 pm
Paul,
I’d give them the right to a fair trial. If nothing else, locking the wrong person up violates everything we stand for. At least have a trial to prove that the person deserves to be imprisoned, and is not just someone there for being at the wrong place at the wrong time. Or is not there because the US paid a thousand dollars for terrorist information, so they get captured for being guilty of only pissing someone off.
As for the type of trial, I think the military type is the way to go. US criminal courts are not designed to handle international trials. POW trials would work, but there is no “enemy country” that qualifies because of the way the “war on terror” was set up. Ideally, send each person back to the country where they were caught, and have trials there. Release if innocent, imprisonment if guilty.
Paul
June 2nd, 2009
1:12 pm
Brad Steel
[[ignore this and many other inevitable popular opinion polls. Screw the polls ]]
Neat! You’ve just listed ANOTHER similarity between Pres Obama and Pres Bush!
BDAtlanta
June 2nd, 2009
1:14 pm
Maybe I’m wrong in thinking we Americans aren’t normally a bunch of wusses. I wasn’t around for Pearl Harbor so maybe someone who was can enlighten me. Did we freak out like a bunch of pansies in a thunderstorm? Did it last for 8+ years? Did our leaders in the white house broaden the problem through incompetence at media/public relations?
getalife
June 2nd, 2009
1:14 pm
I said they are waiting for a plan dave.
Can you read?
Mrs. Godzilla
June 2nd, 2009
1:16 pm
Ok Boys…listen up.
You have done as I hoped.
The mere mention of Auschwitz and Buchenwald
creates feeling of revulsion in us all.
Justifiably so.
There are people who when they hear “Gitmo” feel the same revulsion.
Also justifiably so.
That is why Gitmo must be closed.
I acknowledge that the concentration camps in Germany and Japan, and even some here in the US during our Civil War, were far and away places of greater death.
Can you acknowledge that there are mothers and fathers and children
all over the middle east who see Gitmo as a place of death as well?
MadMadWorld
June 2nd, 2009
1:17 pm
Hey Libs
How’s it feel to know that at least 1/2 and up to 2/3 of the people out there disagree with your crazy ideas about gitmo? Looks like your in the minority after all.
Paul
June 2nd, 2009
1:18 pm
Logical Dude
Thanks. Now we’re getting past the talking points. And that gets tough.
Such as, what’s a ‘fair’ trial? What standards apply. Which rights? Which procedures? This is why the Bush Administration, the Congress and the Court have been going round and round for a few years now. And that’s been with the military type you cite.
I’m with you on the hearings to determine cause for continued incarceration, but that leads right back to the ‘what standards?’ question. Some are easy – misidentification, payoff to a rival leading to arrest, that sort of thing. But others? Big problems.
Actually, the Bush Administration resisted sending some back to their home countries, as does the Obama Administration. Torture, death, that sort of thing. Plus, some don’t want’em back!
It’s a conundrum. But I do agree with you that our criminal justice system is inappropriate. And the Court can’t seem to decide which items they tell Congress to address are going to apply in the next hearing. So it continues.
booger
June 2nd, 2009
1:18 pm
RB, he is trying to make George Soros happy.
BDAtlanta
June 2nd, 2009
1:19 pm
Paul writes: Democratic Congress who’s obstructing Pres Obama and giving the ‘fear’ reasons to their constituents
That’s all political. They put the brakes on because they want to get health care taken care of first – America first. Detainees can wait till a later date. I think Obama and the Democrats woke last month and realized we are 1/2 through with 2009 and they have more to get done. Even with majority votes they have to pick their battles wisely and there was no sense in wasting airspace on detainees who aren’t going anywhere anytime soon.
Save strength and any clout for the fight on health care.
Mrs. Godzilla
June 2nd, 2009
1:20 pm
Cons – is Richard Mellon Scaife the reason to keep it open?