A case of domestic terrorism?
WICHITA – George Tiller, the Wichita doctor who became a national lightning rod in the debate over abortion, was shot to death this morning as he walked into church services.
Tiller was shot just after 10 a.m. at Reformation Lutheran Church at 7601 E. 13th, where he was a member of the congregation. Witnesses and a police source confirmed Tiller was the victim.
No information has been released about whether a suspect is in custody….
Tiller has long been a focal point of protest by abortion opponents because his clinic, Women’s Health Care Services at 5701 E. Kellogg, is one of the few in the country where late-term abortions are performed.
Protesters blockaded Tiller’s clinic during Operation Rescue’s “Summer of Mercy” protests during the summer of 1991, and Tiller was shot by Rachelle Shannon at his clinic in 1993.
Tiller was wounded in both arms, and Shannon remains in prison for the shooting.
Tiller’s clinic was severely vandalized earlier this month. According to the Associated Press, his lawyer said wires to security cameras and outdoor lights were cut and that the vandals also cut through the roof and plugged the buildings’ downspouts. Rain poured through the roof and caused thousands of dollars of damage in the clinic. Tiller reportedly asked the FBI to investigate the incident.
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228 comments Add your comment
ByteMe
May 31st, 2009
1:01 pm
Some “Pro Life” folks seem to have a very flexible set of morals.
buddy larsen
May 31st, 2009
1:24 pm
True, ByteMe, but nowhere near as flexible as those of pro late-term abortion folks.
getalife
May 31st, 2009
1:33 pm
Another pro life murder.
Redneck Convert
May 31st, 2009
1:38 pm
Well, sounds like this Dr. realized the Error of His Ways and up and shot hisself out in public. I reckon they won’t let none of us rednecks on the jury if they arrest somebody, seeing as how it was in Kansas.
clyde
May 31st, 2009
1:42 pm
I guess pro life people shoot anyone that disagrees with them.Odd bunch.”I’m pro life”–Bang!!!
BDAtlanta
May 31st, 2009
1:46 pm
That’s mighty pro-life of them.
BDAtlanta
May 31st, 2009
1:47 pm
The harrowing truth remains unchanged from what it was before Cheney emerged from his bunker to set Washington atwitter. The Bush administration did not make us safer either before or after 9/11. Obama is not making us less safe. If there’s another terrorist attack, it will be because the mess the Bush administration ignored in Pakistan and Afghanistan spun beyond anyone’s control well before Americans could throw the bums out.
Frank Rich in today’s NYtimes.com
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/05/31/opinion/31rich.html?_r=1
@@
May 31st, 2009
1:47 pm
Tiller has botched many a late-term abortion, jay…..some resulting in death (Christin Gilbert).
Not sayin’ they were involved but DANG!!!
at least give Tiller the “credit” HE’s due.
A modest proposal
May 31st, 2009
1:47 pm
1. Find out what church the shooter attended, and have a horde of armed pro-choice activists attend each Sunday to monitor the political content of the service.
2. Use every power in the Patriot Act to harass anti-abortion radicals. Maybe some of them get aquitted, but I bet we could make sure a lot of them lose their houses raising the money to legally defend themselves.
3. Prosecute every anti-abortion group that hasn’t been 100% clear in their opposition to violence with being an accomplice, using the RICO statutes. If we can’t convict them, maybe we can also bankrupt them.
4. Speak with every anti-abortion person you know. Either they renounce this immediately, or you shun them for the rest of their lives.
gotalife
May 31st, 2009
1:56 pm
Let’s see… choose between a fully-formed baby that’s about to be born… or some ugly old guy who kills for money… yeah, I would say, I don’t give a s*** he got killed.
AmVet
May 31st, 2009
2:13 pm
gotalife, that you are obviously a repugnant piece of sh.. doesn’t matter at all.
It is interesting though, that like many of your Reich-wing brethren, who must be thrilled with this crime, you are so gutless you won’t even use a name you’ll stick by.
Big brave man you are.
Maybe an uncle? A white male 50-60, balding in middle, gray hair, white shirt, dark pants, 6′1″ 220, Powder blue 93 Ford Taurus, K-State vanity plate, tag “225 BAB”.
getalife
May 31st, 2009
2:13 pm
I am getalife and do not approve of gotalife’s message.
Ew.
RW-(the original)
May 31st, 2009
2:15 pm
A case of domestic terrorism?
I believe the term is supposed to be domestic man caused disaster, but it sounds more like a targeted assassination to me than terrorism.
getalife
May 31st, 2009
2:27 pm
Well, it bolsters Janet’s argument on RW extremists.
josef nix
May 31st, 2009
2:29 pm
Just hold on a minute–the lunatic fringe from both sides once again have drawn their all-or-nothing lines in the dirt. I don’t see an awful lot of “pro-life” people out there taking in and raising kids “saved” from abortions whose mamas can’t, and I don’t see an awful lot of “pro-choice” folks handing out birth control and preaching responsibility.
There are plenty of legitimate reasons for aborting a pregnancy. There are plenty of reasons for not. I’m a male and will ultimately never be faced with the decision. Best we leave this, ultimately, to the woman, her G-d, and the medical provider and the state, political haymakers and ideologues should stay out of it.
I’m no Caribou Barbie fan, but I respect the hell out of her and hers for practicing what they preach.
Michael H. Smith
May 31st, 2009
2:42 pm
Murder is murder, the unjust abrogation of life cannot be shielded from justice and should never be condoned. To some the prerogative of one man’s freedom fighter being to the other man a terrorist may seem justice enough served, though absent a trial, conviction and sentence of death given to a living individual before their execution, it is a case of murder in my humble Pro-Life opinion.
On that note of empathy, perhaps every pro-abortion person should shun and renounce taking life from the unborn that never live to get their day in court?
jt
May 31st, 2009
2:47 pm
The police-state that we live in THRIVES on these incidents.
Our differences only make the state stronger.
josef nix
May 31st, 2009
3:07 pm
jt..a voice of reason!
Michael H. Smith, while I may disagree with you, I respect the fact that you use your name.
ty webb
May 31st, 2009
3:07 pm
Domestic terrorism? No, sounds like murder to me.
Kamchak
May 31st, 2009
3:09 pm
…and I don’t see an awful lot of ‘pro-choice’ folk handing out birth control and preaching responsibility.”
Where exactly are “pro-choice folk” supposed do do these two things? School? Not in a red state–abstinence only is the only “choice” afforded to educators. Let’s see—where else do kids congregate? The mall? Yeah–a consortium of retailers is gonna risk the ire of parents. The movie theater? Ditto about irate parents. I know—let’s invite pro-choicers to the First Baptist Church of (fill in the blank) and let them distribute condoms there.
I Rule You :-) / You Whine :-(
May 31st, 2009
3:22 pm
Well, he won’t be killing any more babies.
“We are shocked at this morning’s disturbing news that Mr. Tiller was gunned down,” said Troy Newman, Operation Rescue’s president. “Operation Rescue has worked for years through peaceful, legal means, and through the proper channels to see him brought to justice. We denounce vigilantism and the cowardly act that took place this morning.”
Ditto.
Billy
May 31st, 2009
3:29 pm
Amen, Kamchak. We try and try to get comprehensive sex ed to kids. We try and try to make contraception more readily available to those who might want it. But, no, can’t be sullying the innocent kids’ minds with knowledge of sex!
It’s the right that impedes that sort of progress. Unfortunately, most of the pro-lifers are jackasses who support abstinence-only education and don’t want anyone giving kids any actual facts about sex. They evidently only care about the fetus, since they vote for people whose only concern for the child is getting it into the world and not for actually providing for its health once it’s here. You want to outlaw abortion? Try reducing the feeling many pregnant women have that they won’t be able to care for a child. Provide some support for women who make a mistake.
DB, Gwinnettian
May 31st, 2009
3:30 pm
Yes.
(This has been another edition of Simple Answers to Simple Questions.)
PS: And so were the Knoxville Unitarian Universalist murders.
PPS: Thanks, @@, for confirming that you’re ok with moral relativism. I always knew Andy was.
I Rule You :-) / You Whine :-(
May 31st, 2009
3:34 pm
Question- What if the killer turns out to be the mother of a child who died while Tiller was butchering her baby?
Since you libs seem to have such a hard time dealing with simple, undeniable facts…….
DB, Gwinnettian
May 31st, 2009
3:40 pm
In case anyone’s forgotten, here’s the right-wing-radio inspired manifesto that accompanied the Knoxville UU terrorist.
I imagine this Wichita terrorist draws from similar sources.
Oh, and Andy–you know where you can shove your hypotheticals.
DB, Gwinnettian
May 31st, 2009
3:54 pm
One imagines that Neal Horsely is pleased with this development, and will be updating his website shortly.
DB, Gwinnettian
May 31st, 2009
3:57 pm
From Pandagon, which is a source of sanity at times like this–
Dr. Tiller was a brave man and a real hero. He was already shot once in 1993, but despite the ongoing threat of violence, he continued to work diligently to provide abortion services to women who are often in the worst possible situation, facing down the termination of a pregnancy that was being eagerly planned for, until things went terribly wrong. If a woman has a later term therapeutic abortion—be it because it was a wanted pregnancy, she has serious mental health issues, or she is a child victim of rape—it’s rarely easy on her mentally or physically. Dr. Tiller’s clinic was renowned for the thoughtful patient support to help women get through what is a very difficult time—counseling, support groups, religious services for the lost baby if you desire.
He didn’t have to do this. He didn’t have to put his life and his family’s life on the line every day to tend to women going through a little-understood trauma. He didn’t have to go through a sea of protesters who hate women so much they actually think that women are lying about their problems so they “get” to have later term abortions. He didn’t have to suffer through relentless legal abuse at the hands of fundamentalist misogynists who obtain political power by exploiting voter ignorance about abortion. He didn’t have to make himself the target for this murder to help women, but for whatever reason, he rose to this challenge, and that makes him a real hero.
Condolences to George Tiller’s family.
And that’s about all I can think to say at the moment. Later, all.
I rule Andy
May 31st, 2009
4:09 pm
Andy,
Well then she needs to die. Dead, like what her theoretical baby was after SHE went into the Dr’s clinic voluntarily, dead like Dr. Tiller was after she shot him because he gave her the abortion she asked for…
Any more stupid questions? Oh wait, they’re all stupid questions coming from you…
ewwwwwwwwwwwwwwww
HavingMySay
May 31st, 2009
4:09 pm
I Rule You
/ You Whine 
May 31st, 2009
3:34 pm
Question- What if the killer turns out to be the mother of a child who died while Tiller was butchering her baby?
Since you libs seem to have such a hard time dealing with simple, undeniable facts…….
KEEP DREAMING…..THIS WAS THE WORK OF A PRO-LIFE NUT. NOT ONLY THAT, BUT AT CHURCH OF ALL PLACES.
I SAY – HAND OVER THE KILLER TO THE PRO-LIFE SUPPORTERS and LET’s SEE WHAT THEY DO WITH THE GUILTY PARTY.
I’m willing to bet they give him a gold medal and provide financial support for his legal obligations. That’s what those types of church going, christian like and children of god do when it comes to murder.
I Rule You :-) / You Whine :-(
May 31st, 2009
4:14 pm
Aahhh, yes, the libs would very much like to kill the killer of the baby killer.
The piano wire posse rides hard!
eewwww
Mrs. Godzilla
May 31st, 2009
4:18 pm
So no the folks who cry out against “baby killers” and proudly “adult killers”.
Disgusting.
Support secular government.
I rule Andy
May 31st, 2009
4:22 pm
It’s the law, especially in Kansas. Some Libs own guns and believe in the death penalty. This was obviously premeditated, it’s a death penalty case. I’ll flip the switch, have a peanut butter sandwich and some warm milk and sleep like a babe in momma’s arms…
HaveMySay,
The Pro-Life nuts will have the killer if they actually catch him. There’s a pretty good chance he’ll be harbored and sheltered by some nutbag wingbutternut, maybe he’ll be a good conservative and flee to France like the last nutbag wingbutternut Dr killer.
Imagine that, wingbutternuts fleeing to france, and wingbutternuts having sex with mules, what a funny bunch you are….
ewwww and ewwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww
I rule Andy
May 31st, 2009
4:28 pm
Hey wingbutternuts,
If you don’t like abortion, then work to change the laws. You’re too stupid to realize it, but you just blew it bigtime last November, not only did you get your a-ss-es handed to you, but you all handed the libtards a super majority.
The funniest part of it all is that all any of you can do about it is troll Jay Bookman’s blog and shake your fist at the world. Rather than admit you blew it by trying to slip the hillbilly from wasilly past the American public, you come here day after day and hour after hour and scream your hateful little insults and cut-n-paste your conservative RSS newfeeds and pat yourselves on the back for sticking it to the man…
Hilarious….
ewwwwwwww
Michael H. Smith
May 31st, 2009
4:31 pm
Ah why not, I like rocking the boat at times. For the record my position on abortion is pre- Roe v Wade, which means abortion is only acceptable under the conditions of rape, incest or threat to the life of the mother. In fact, something that will likely floor the liberals whom I’m frequently accused of abusing, I’d rather see adoption made easier for homosexuals than to have Roe v Wade stand and watch the destruction of innocent human life. In the best of worlds if we as people would act responsible there would be little need of abortions. Unfortunately, nature never gave human passions an eraser, instead nature gave humans a mind to avoid unintended consequences.
The government only becomes stronger when we are irresponsible as humans and citizens of this country.
I Obsess About Andy, Eewww
May 31st, 2009
4:33 pm
Just saying……..
AmVet
May 31st, 2009
4:34 pm
Crimes like this merely confirm what many of us already know – the far Reich-wingers are not remotely interested in justice. Or the rule of law. At least those laws they don’t feel they need to obey.
This church murdering didn’t take that long after the last one, did it? And I as I predicted after the one in Tennessee, there will be more.
Some tacitly advocate for maniacal murderers such as this man. Others, even more craven, hide behind excerpts, but fool no one.
To them, this is an exercise in twisted semantics and hypotheticals. And where they perhaps secretly rejoice at the results inflicted by this gutless coward.
Our system of laws provides for LEGAL abortions and the protection of those professionals who perform them. Yet the worst of these scumbags and christo-fascists cavalierly called THEM the murderers.
And if they had their way, the United States of America would again be a place where abortions were illegal, unsafe and sometimes fatal.
Just the way they liked it…
mike
May 31st, 2009
4:47 pm
Using the actions of this one nut case to smear all pro-lifers or conservatives is silly. That is like claiming that the actions of eco-terrorists are representative of all environmentalists.
josef nix
May 31st, 2009
4:47 pm
Kamchak and Billy–if you spent half as much time figuring out how to as you do kvetching about it, you’d see. I teach. I know what we’re up against there. Ever heard of biology? That’s where it starts and the earlier we introduce it the better. I teach fifth graders in an at risk enviroment. The science curriculum introduces sexual and asexual reproduction. My job is to teach them how reproduction takes place. There’s no need to mince words and two step. The Baptists? I’m not one myself, but I know plenty and you might be surprised how many of their youth ministers direct their flock to resources while still “preaching” abstinance as per the theological guidelines of their faith. Do they discuss this with the children’s parents? Of course they do. But you might also be surprised by how many of those parents are grateful to have a backup. Baptists practice birth control, too, you know. Where? Why not the mall? Put your money where your mouth is, set up a storefront…it has been done. The movie theatre? Put together a simple and straightforward announcement and get the theatre to show it. The pro-lifers should get the same equal access there. It’s called public service. Yeah, it takes time, effort, energy and resources and a will to fight, but it can be done. It’s not because the television networks aren’t willing (and required) it’s just that nobody’s doing it. There are a few here and there and that let’s you know it can be done. We just need more. And quit blaming the red states. If the blue states are better, then, pray tell why are the statistics so disturbingly uniform?
Back when my own little one was coming of age, i brought her in for “that talk.” ME: how do you get pregnant. SHE: it’s when sperm cell meets egg cell. ME: and how do you keep from getting pregnant? SHE: well, there’s condoms, the pill,,,” ME: I didn’t ask you your preferred method. I asked you how. SHE: You keep sperm cell and egg cell apart. ME: Right, now go on about your business. SHE: that’s it? ME: well, if we haven’t taught you the morality of it by now, it’s a little late to get started.
Her Mama took her to family planning where they have a good lecture just for girls her age. She’s married with two kids of her own now, both planned. I still don’t know what method she uses. I do know that she knew the biology and, she says, we provided her with a moral compass.
Mrs. Godzilla
May 31st, 2009
4:55 pm
We’ve had such a lovely weekend, and I come in and read this.
I have not read all of the comments above, I have outrage enough.
There are many people who strongly, loudly believe differently than one another. God bless them.
There are those who would bomb Olympic Park, blow up Federal Buildings,
bomb draft offices and women’s clinics, mail anthrax, torture or murder doctors in their house of worship. God damn them.
Pro Life and Pro Choice factions must both condemn this.
Kamchak
May 31st, 2009
5:10 pm
josef nix
I was baptized in a Baptist Church so please don’t presume to tell me about baptists. Planned parenthood has fought for years to be able to educate and distribute birth control only to be met with exactly the rhetoric Billy described I’m going out on a limb here and guessing “you ain’t from ’round here, are ya?” Else wise you wouldn’t have written such a naive statement about educating the youth about sex. You also presume that your experience with educating your “little one” equates with what others’ experience.
When school boards are willing to spend hundreds of thousands of dollars defending a decision to add disclaimer stickers to high school text books concerning evolution, I must question their priorities. I am the only one in my family that is not a teacher or administrator and I know the party line on this issue and sex-ed–”ignore it and it will go away.”
josef nix
May 31st, 2009
5:16 pm
Michael H. Smith–thanks for the vote of confidence on homosexual adoptions. Back when my Better Half’s nephews were left orphaned and they came to live with us, we faced that issue. Now you red-state-stupid-backwoods South bashers, hold on to your chapeaux! We first went looking for a place to put them in school, that was before the paperwork started. The reception we were given in, ready for this, Coosa, Georgia was so warm, so respectful it blew us out of the water. We were looking for a place, we told them, where the community reflected our home values. Next came getting the proper papers and their social security. The lady in the SS office says to us when we told her we had a court hearing, “look, I’ll expedite this. We’ll get you a check at least by the first of December since them boys need a Christmas given what they’ve been through. Who’s the judge? Oh, that’s John Henry, I’ll call him.” She did and the papers were signed with no hold up. Of course they knew we were gay, but “you boys are doing the right thing trying to give them boys a home.” But, Kamchak and Company, the real shock came when the local Baptist minister came to invite us to be “a part of our church family.” We diplomatically informed him that that probably wasn’t such a good idea since we were gay. The answer, and believe me we were shocked, was “oh, couple’s night is Thursday.”
Now, do I think that any of these people necessarilly “approved” of our sexual orientation? L-rd, no. But they did believe in “you leave them boys alone. They’re doing the right thing.”
Oh, yes, and the girl? Well she was with us since birth. Her Mama was 18, fresh in from West Virginia, got pregnant, the man ran off and she was alone in the big city, friendless and wondering what to do. She didn’t want to have an abortion and she really didn’t want to give away her baby. My Better and I promised to do what we could to help. We, like the mama, had our problems with abortion as a means of birth control. We put our own lives on hold and A. grew up with two homes where she knew she was loved and wanted.
That’s why I hold the pro-lifers who spend their time yapping in no higher regard than the pro-choicers.
HG3
May 31st, 2009
5:18 pm
Let’s see…Criminal Law as taught in 1L — from the first week of class, if I remember correctly — Murder is “the unlawful killing of another human being with malice aforethought”.
I’d say that’s about right on the mark for the shooter in this case. He is now the problem of the State of Kansas.
josef nix
May 31st, 2009
5:33 pm
Kamchak…not only am I from aroun’ cheer, my ancestry on all four sides goes back to the colonial period, most of them getting here as early as the mid 1600s. I’m pyoh Southern!
And I don’t presuppose to tell you about Baptists. I’m just saying that there’s plenty of good ones, too, and just because you found reason to be an apostate is no reason to go tarring them all with the same narrow minded tar brush.
No, I don’t equate my own child rearing techniques with others’ experience. All I’m saying is that we do what we can where we can and, in so doing, we will find that we can be examples for others.
josef nix
May 31st, 2009
5:47 pm
Kamchak–don’t get me started on those stickers! I’d probably make YOU sound “conservative!” How often do you go to school board meetings to make your voice heard? If nothing else, it’s an evening’s entertainment. Won’t ever forget the night my Better Half, luckily sitting on the other side of the room, informed a member, “Madame, you have delusions of adequacy.” Seems she had her own kids in private school…
A modest proposal
May 31st, 2009
5:52 pm
Michael H. Smith, you are a terrorist sympathizer. I would be happy to see you lose your life savings attempting to defend yourself from a politically motivated RICO prosecution.
josef nix
May 31st, 2009
5:56 pm
A modest proposal–yeah, maybe, but he stood up for me when Obama and company keep telling me to wait citing their religious reasons for such. Kinda sad, isn’t it, when Mr. Smith is more progressive than Shabbatai Zvi Obama….
Kamchak
May 31st, 2009
5:58 pm
I don’t have to “go tarring them all with the same narrow minded tar brush”, most of the ones I know willingly jumped in the bucket of their own accord. Yes, as individuals they can be warm and hospitable, however, some of the worst politicking can be seen in any Baptist Church when there is a building committee and/or a pulpit committee. I have personally seen four congregations split over these two issues. Never have I seen a mob overcome by group think. This was the reason of my apostasy. Congratulations that you have found warm and friendly evangelicals who have accepted you.
A modest proposal
May 31st, 2009
5:59 pm
I rule Andy – the death penalty is NOWHERE NEAR enough.
First, he should be prosecuted from terrorism, not merely murder. That’s a federal death sentence, not a state one, which is important given the political power of terrorist sympathizer Phill Klein, who set up the rifle, placed Tiller in its sights, and starting drawing the attention of church murderers (err, I mean pro-lifers…).
Second, the 8th amendment provides against cruel and unusual punishment, which means our modern techniques are far too humane for this person.
Finally, they will probably stop the prosecution with one guy, the “lone assassin,” while terrorist groups like Operation Church Killers (err… Operation Rescue) remain free to walk the streets.
All of this “oh I hate abortion but I renounce this killing” b.s. are transparent lies. I don’t trust a single pro-lifer when they say this unless I’ve known them to be consistent about it for some time. Pro-life leaders and politicians make a profession of attempting to provoke political assassinations like this, and should be held accountable as accomplices to terrorism.
A modest proposal
May 31st, 2009
6:02 pm
josef nix – I have no idea what you are talking about. You sound like an idiot.
If you want to really insult Obama, though, don’t mess with making him sound Islamic. Just call him a “pro-lifer”.
Kamchak
May 31st, 2009
6:03 pm
“Madame, you have delusions of adequacy.”
LOL!!! Has that been trademarked? If not I shall steal it.
I Obsess About Andy, Eewww
May 31st, 2009
6:06 pm
Treasuries have lost 5.1 percent so far this year including reinvested interest, according to Merrill Lynch & Co. index data. The dollar has also slumped, with the Federal Reserve’s trade-weighted Major Currency Dollar index sliding 3.2 percent so far this year.
For the fiscal year that ends Sept. 30, the deficit is projected to reach a record $1.75 trillion from last year’s $455 billion shortfall, according to the Congressional Budget Office.
And to think, they said McCain didn’t know anything about economics!
Ironic, isn’t it?
eewww
A modest proposal
May 31st, 2009
6:07 pm
HG3 bad idea.
1. It’s not simply murder – it is terrorism. It was done for the purpose of political intimidation and to advance the political end of ceasing abortion by exterminating abortion providers. It is organized activity. Terrorist sympathizers like Phill Kline identify the targets, and radical individuals are inculcated in religious settings, week after week, into a worldview that makes such killing seem justified. You cannot solve the problem by going after one person – you have to go after the terrorist-front anti-abortion churches as well.
2. If you leave it to Kansas, it’s a bad idea. That state has terrorist sympathizers in most positions of power. If he’s convicted at all, it will be out of their fear for what he means for their movement. Don’t trust them when they act appalled by this person – after all, they created him, systematically and intentionally, and they are currently in the process of cultivating others.
Obama is wrong when he asserts that pro-choice people should seek common ground with pro-lifers. They cannot be reasoned with.
I Obsess About Andy, Eewww
May 31st, 2009
6:11 pm
The sheriff’s office had suspected that the man would be coming back to his home on I-35, and the deputies waited for him.
As the car was spotted going northbound on the highway, the deputies followed and were quickly joined by three other sheriff’s patrol cars.
Lt. Mike Pfannenstiel of the Johnson County Sheriff’s office said officers pulled the car over just south of the main Gardner exit and got out with guns drawn. The man then got out of his car with his hands up.
“We took him down without incident,” Pfannenstiel said, adding that the man appeared to be driving the speed limit and made no attempt to elude the deputies.
He went home?
Whaaaackoooooo.
I rule Andy
May 31st, 2009
6:16 pm
Yeah, conservatives ain’t that bright are they???
The problem is that there are those in the state govt that will help this guy, Kansas is just THAT conservative.
ewwwwwwwwwwwwwwww
josef nix
May 31st, 2009
6:25 pm
Kamchak–nope, not patented and feel free to use it! BTW: believe me, I DO understand what you mean by the politicking…it’s why I don’t affiliate with any Jewish congregation–you think Baptists are bad! Given your reasoning, I’ll retract the term “apostate.” I like the term “backslid Baptist.” As for the warm reception, I’ve been blessed to have found such among all religious groups,
A modest proposal–what do you mean? I’m not making him sound Islamic, illiterate, Shabbatai Zvi was JEWISH…well at least for most of his life…he did convert to Islam for expediency’s sake to save his neck…he claimed he was the Messiah and for a while had quite the following…and secondly, I’m castigating Brother Barack for using his religious faith (his version of Christianity) to deny full civil rights to me and mine…
One Voice
May 31st, 2009
6:35 pm
It’s just one more piece of evidence that right wing Western authoritarian fundamentalists are essentially the same in theory and practice as extremist Islamic fundamentalists. All of this is predicated on their indoctrination in fictional concepts and the dogmatic belief that the world must conform to their mythology. And they see no hypocrisy in murdering to advance their “religious” views. Humanity only advances through education; religion is the remnant of primitive man and lies in opposition to civilized society.
jt
May 31st, 2009
6:45 pm
I obsess
Ironic, isn’t it?
Absolutely not. Consult your dictionary.
A modest proposal
May 31st, 2009
6:46 pm
josef nix – apologies for not knowing who you are talking about. You are still being pretty unclear about what you are speaking of.
What did Obama do to YOU, as an individual? My assumption is nothing….
booger
May 31st, 2009
6:59 pm
I think it was Bush and Cheney who did this dastardly deed.
josef nix
May 31st, 2009
7:02 pm
A modest proposal–He came out in support of Prop 8, invited the hate monger preacher Warren to “bless” his, we thought, secular administration, and is refusing to repeal don’t-ask-don’t-tell. As an individual? Forgive me if take it a bit personal.
Ray
May 31st, 2009
7:05 pm
Abortion of a viable fetus is now the only time that a person in this US can get away with murder, especially a late term baby. 92% of abortions in this country are performed for “societal reasons”, that is birth control. Where are the responsible people in this country? Do you not know how babies are made? Most of us don’t stand in the middle of a freeway at rush hour. You might get killed. But it seems that many ladies in this country are spreading their legs and getting laid once too often. If they are going to do the deed, use protection, keep it safe and don’t kill babies just because you were irresponsible enough to create them. Most of us are really pro-life, that is we don’t really want to kill an unborn. Show me one lady who has had an abortion, especially a late term procedure, that does not have a lot of remorse for the act. That decision stays with you for life. It never goes away. You think about it at the oddest times. Either keep your legs together or use protection. Someone’s life might depend on it.
josef nix
May 31st, 2009
7:08 pm
Of course it was Bush and Cheney, whatever the dastardly deed you refer to. They’re responsible for everything from the War of Jenkins’ Ear to the crabgrass in my yard…I can’t abide them, mind you, and am more than happy to see them go, but they’ve been scapegoated already, off to the wilderness carrying the sins of the people with them. Toot the Shofar for G-d’s sake and let’s get on with a fresh year to atone for,,,as you see, I’ve already started my list!
jt
May 31st, 2009
7:12 pm
Hey josef nix
tsa-la-gi hi wo-ni-ha
tsalagi hi woniha?
Dave R
May 31st, 2009
7:19 pm
Geez, Bookman. You go off and have a couple of clams, and then come back with such a stupid title and conclusion for this piece!
FYI, it is a murder. Nothing more – nothing less.
You can’t call a REAL war against terrorism a war against terrorism anymore, but you have no problem labeling a street crime as terrorism. What a hack!
josef nix
May 31st, 2009
7:20 pm
O-si-yo! Nope, my Better Half is Chata-Tsalagi. I wish I spoke either one, but I don’t. I do know some Ladino, though! Whenever I get too carried away with my Southern roots rot, he says, “well my family met the boat.” Where did you learn your tsa-la-gi?
jt
May 31st, 2009
7:30 pm
http://www.auburn.edu/outreach/dl/echota/tlr_lessons.php
josef nix
May 31st, 2009
7:31 pm
Thanks for the link! Are you tsa-la-gi?
getalife
May 31st, 2009
7:42 pm
Now, they will keep gitmo open for the American taliban.
wingnuts,
geez.
Dave
May 31st, 2009
7:46 pm
I am pro-life. I am also a Christian (and a Baptist). What happened today was a tragedy. And yes, the killer should get the death penalty.
To me, abortion is murder, and so is killing those who perform them. The Lord said, “You shall know them by their fruits (actions).” Anybody with half a brain would know that the killer is either deranged, or a liar if they claim to be a Christian. Going to church doesn’t make you a Christian any more than going to Wendy’s makes you a Frosty.
And Mrs. Godzilla, secularism is the root of most of this crap (murders, abortions, euthanasia (both of which are just legalized murder), rapes, kidnappings, shall I go on?). Without a moral compass (which includes respect for human life), there are no morals, and I’d say we’re shooting down the home stretch at the speed of light on that count. So don’t say a word when you finally get your wish, and life is worse than it ever could be now.
jewcowboy
May 31st, 2009
7:47 pm
Dave R,
“FYI, it is a murder. Nothing more – nothing less.”
From U.S. Code Title 22, Ch.38, Para. 2656f(d):
“(2) the term “terrorism” means premeditated, politically motivated violence perpetrated against noncombatant targets by subnational groups or clandestine agents;”
If you consider the aim of this murder is politically motivated and seems most certainly premeditated, this would seem to fit under the U.S. Code for domestic terrorism.
getalife
May 31st, 2009
7:48 pm
Hey, lets act the cons, write our reps and say we are scared to death of the American taliban and demand they treat them as terrorists.
Ray
May 31st, 2009
7:51 pm
You can put it any way you want, give it any definition, try to wiggle out of the consequences and it is still something that could have been prevented if responsible people do the right thing. Quit giving excuses for this thing…. it only makes you and the other people who are irresponsible look stupid.
AmVet
May 31st, 2009
7:57 pm
Dave, occasionally someone posts something so amazingly stupid, so fantastically full of cr@p, it actually stands out.
Congratulations…
Dave R
May 31st, 2009
8:04 pm
Sorry, jewcowboy, you’re reaching on this one. As (is usual),Jay.
Murder is the taking of another person’s life. Plain and simple. Nothing else needs to be assigned to that. Same thing with those phony “hate crimes”. Assault is assault, regardless of the intention. Murder is murder, regardless of the intention. Neither get any worse trying to assign motives to them.
It is just the libs way of ramping up the victim card. Stop making anything more complicated than it is.
jewcowboy
May 31st, 2009
8:10 pm
josef nix,
“I’ve stated my opposition to this. I think [Prop 8 is] unnecessary. I believe marriage is between a man and a woman. I am not in favor of gay marriage. But when you start playing around with constitutions, just to prohibit somebody who cares about another person, it just seems to me that’s not what America’s about. Usually, our constitutions expand liberties, they don’t contract them.”
I’m not sure I would call that “in support of Prop 8.” I am not saying his opposition to gay marriage does not jibe with mine, but I do think 5 months into a Presidency, with 2 wars and an economic meltdown to deal with, might be a bit over-optimistic to deal with everything. I would rather he proceed carefully and get things right, rather than rush into things (a la Clinton) and set back things 15 years.
Dave R
May 31st, 2009
8:10 pm
And Dave, while I might not be wholeheartedly behind your comment at 7:46, you need to listen to Ambling Veterinarian.
That boy is the King of Cr@p, given that he writes it so consistently.
jewcowboy
May 31st, 2009
8:12 pm
Dave R,
“Nothing else needs to be assigned to that. Same thing with those phony “hate crimes”. Assault is assault, regardless of the intention. Murder is murder, regardless of the intention. Neither get any worse trying to assign motives to them.”
Then 9/11 was simply murder by your definition.
josef nix
May 31st, 2009
8:13 pm
I disagree with most of what Dave says, but AmVet, didn’t you notice he started by saying “to me?” With all due respect, it is comments like yours that give us liberals a bad name As the old folks say, “who died and made you G-d?”
Jewcowboy–point taken and well put.
jewcowboy
May 31st, 2009
8:16 pm
Ray,
“But it seems that many ladies in this country are spreading their legs and getting laid once too often.”
Last time I looked it took an egg and a sperm to create a fetus. Letting the boys off rather easy aren’t you? Perhaps if they kept the wang dang doodle in the barn, or stepped up to their responsibility if they don’t, then we could cut down on the abortion rate.
jewcowboy
May 31st, 2009
8:18 pm
Ray,
“Desmond Hatchett, a Tennessee man, has fathered 21 children by 11 different women at the age of 29, an American court has heard.”
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/northamerica/usa/5404674/Desmond-Hatchett-fathers-21-children-by-11-women-before-turning-30.html
But it is just the woman’s problem.
Dave R
May 31st, 2009
8:20 pm
jewcowboy.
You’ve finally figured it out. Yes. Mass murder. Anything else is inflammatory for the dumb masses to swallow whole.
getalife
May 31st, 2009
8:21 pm
Hey, lets invade Kansas and fight them over there so we don’t have to fight them here.
Take away their rights , torture them in gitmo, take pictures, play the fear card for 8 years and hang their leader.
Insane?
Nah, just conservatism.
Ray
May 31st, 2009
8:22 pm
Jewcowboy,
The female is the gate keeper in this situation. I personally don’t trust males as far as I can throw them. Someone has to have a level head (no pun intended) in this situation and it doesn’t seem to be males. If males carried the fetus to term, this would be a different ballgame.
jewcowboy
May 31st, 2009
8:25 pm
josef nix,
That said, Obama’s religious beliefs prevent him from supporting gay marriage, but not supporting abortion? Seems more like political calculation to get elected, rather than true views to me.
jewcowboy
May 31st, 2009
8:25 pm
Ray,
“Someone has to have a level head (no pun intended) in this situation and it doesn’t seem to be males”
Seems like an easy way to let the boys off the hook.
jewcowboy
May 31st, 2009
8:31 pm
Dave R,
“Yes. Mass murder. Anything else is inflammatory for the dumb masses to swallow whole.”
Then your line reasoning says genocide is just murder on large scale, correct?
DB, Gwinnettian
May 31st, 2009
8:31 pm
More stuff the vile right wing pro-terrorists don’t want to hear:
I know a woman who was diagnosed with Stage 4 non-Hodgkins lymphoma around the 5th month of her pregnancy – a planned, very much wanted pregnancy. Her doctors wanted her to start chemo immediately. They didn’t think she’d survive if she waited to start treatment until after she gave birth. There was a good chance she wouldn’t survive to give birth. Chemotherapy would kill the fetus. After agonizing over this decision, she and her husband decided to terminate the pregnancy so she could start chemo immediately. They had a young daughter already. They wanted her to have a mother. Because of the law now against “partial birth abortions”, the doctors couldn’t even deliver a fetus for them to hold and grieve. Somehow, our government decided it was more humane to have the doctors dismember the fetus in utero, at greater risk to the mother and her fertility. She and her husband were devastated but she started chemotherapy and, the last time I heard from her, was alive and healthy and cherishing her daughter. She and her husband were looking into adoption since pregnancy is now considered too high risk for her.
THIS is the type of patient Dr. Tiller treated. Where will women in this situation go in the future?
Dusty
May 31st, 2009
8:32 pm
I have never heard of a Christian church that advocates murder.
I have heard of obsessions, mental illness, and criminal activity as “reasons” for murder.
If you have heard of some strange sect that is called “Christian” and suggests murder for those with whom they disagree, then remember the words of Christ: “Beware of false prophets.”
For those of you who do not attend church or haven’t been there in ten or twenty years, best not to tell us what message you THINK comes from the Christian church. It is love and forgiveness, not murder.
AmVet
May 31st, 2009
8:33 pm
josef, while some might appreciate your misguided “defense”, re-read the following:
“And Mrs. Godzilla, secularism is the root of most of this crap (murders, abortions, euthanasia (both of which are just legalized murder), rapes, kidnappings, shall I go on?). Without a moral compass (which includes respect for human life), there are no morals, and I’d say we’re shooting down the home stretch at the speed of light on that count. So don’t say a word when you finally get your wish, and life is worse than it ever could be now.”
If you feel my calling that happyhorsesh1t what it really is, then I guess I am guilty of giving “liberals” a bad name.
Alas! Sunspot Dave striking out at me with his vicious mockery and vast wit!
Dumb as a bag of hammers…
jewcowboy
May 31st, 2009
8:33 pm
“Seems more like political calculation to get elected, rather than true views to me.”
Of course when religion and politics intersect, much hypocrisy is to be expected.
Michael H. Smith
May 31st, 2009
8:34 pm
Bring on that RICO investigation. It’s a little late for classifying me a terrorists, I’m sure Obumer and his DHS Czar have me on their list of domestic extremest already.
I suppose there are those who reason it is better to kill the innocent unborn than to ever allow them to live among homosexuals?
Uh… don’t like around you dear delusional soul but here’s a hint: You too, live with homosexuals everyday of your humanity hating life. Judge as you will, leave the execution of that judgement to the higher authority.
I confess to being an extremest on defending the unalienable right to life and the right of human beings to continue to exist and procreate as a species. That is why I’d would prefer homosexual adoptions as the better choice to allowing the unjust slaughter of defenseless innocent human beings, who can’t even cry while they are being murdered.
If accepting homocide in the interests of, as you may see it, “stopping homosexuality” is your bag, then I would have more to fear from the terrorists “making modest proposals”, than they would have to fear from me.
I will continue extremely sympathic to life and its purpose through peaceful non-violent means, even to the extremes of accepting conditions I do not prefer as a heterosexual in luie of murders I will never accept under any conditions.
Ray
May 31st, 2009
8:36 pm
Certainly don’t mean that. Everyone in this whole thing has equal responsibility for the creation of a fetus. The females just have to carry it and care for it when it is born. Expensive, committed, inconvenient…. something that the males don’t have. Many walk away with no support of the newborn, no remorse for what they have done….. ergo, the 70% out of wedlock birth rate in the US in the black community, 45% in latinos and 30% in white folks. The sperminators are out in force and we, the taxpayer, are having to pay for it in childcare, welfare supplements and government supported housing. How many single women with children live with their mother who essentially raises the child? Lots of them, and it is very sad about the irresponsibility taken for something that you have created and then let someone else be responsible for. It all boils down to taking responsibility for your actions…. something that 1.25M people in this country leave behind when they visit the abortion clinic. Think about it… that’s the population of a pretty good sized community…. every year.
jewcowboy
May 31st, 2009
8:37 pm
Dusty,
“If you have heard of some strange sect that is called “Christian” and suggests murder for those with whom they disagree,”
I sure those who participate in said sects may consider yours to be “non-Christian.” Such is the quandary of religion, who is right? And how do you prove it?
Dave R
May 31st, 2009
8:39 pm
No, jewcowboy. Genocide is state-sponsored murder, which is entirely different.
Nice try, but you keep trying to inflame that which needs nothing else to get the job done. Murder is murder. Nothing more, nothing less.
And while we’re on the subject of absolutes: Ambling Veterinarian is unarmed in an intelligent conversation. Nothing more, nothing less.
getalife
May 31st, 2009
8:40 pm
Michael H. Smith
Save the confession for the water boarding at gitmo. They will freeze your assets and keep you locked up without a lawyer indefinitly. They will blow up your house and your children.
We are like cons and scared to death of the American taliban.
Not so great when it happens to you huh?
josef nix
May 31st, 2009
8:42 pm
Jewcowboy–first post was in relation to your definition of terrorism! Not your one directed to me!
When we ALL go to the Civil Union License Bureau to pick up the same Civil Union License, I’m willing to quibble over the term marriage. Still, I am reminded of what my Granddaddy said when one of the local preachers had gotten a bit carried away naming names of those “living in sin.” “Brother Smith, marriages aren’t made at the court house. Civil unions.”
And if after 35 years of sharing bed, bath, bankbook, and raising three kids, don’t make a couple “married,” then I don’t know what does,
Given your attention to the meaning of words in your earlier post, I respectfully submit that you could not read that as anything but support.
I don’t have a problem with what you’re saying about priorities. I just want him to say “shut up and wait a while longer, I’ve got bigger fish to fry.” I just want to know where I stand in line. He promised transparency. This ain’t it.
jewcowboy
May 31st, 2009
8:44 pm
Ray,
“Expensive, committed, inconvenient…. something that the males don’t have. Many walk away with no support of the newborn, no remorse for what they have done….. ”
“and we, the taxpayer, are having to pay for it in childcare, welfare supplements and government supported housing.”
Then it would be up to the taxpayers to ensure they are responsible, and do not just lay the responsibility at the feet of women? And if society is not going to force them to their responsibilities, then isn’t it up to the woman to take responsibility and decide how she sees best to deal with the pregnancy?
AmVet
May 31st, 2009
8:46 pm
jewcowboy, you provided an irrefutable fact. A codified piece of American law. Exact and defined.
Sunspot provided an opinion. And views it as a fact.
Not one scintilla of data, evidence or information to back it up.
Why?
He has none…
jewcowboy
May 31st, 2009
8:53 pm
josef nix,
“I just want him to say “shut up and wait a while longer, I’ve got bigger fish to fry.” I just want to know where I stand in line. He promised transparency. This ain’t it.”
That would be nice, and I think that is what his staff is doing from statements about DADT. I personally think when the popularity tide shifts to supporting gay marriage, the support from the White House will follow.
It would be very nice for my decision to commit to mr. non-jewcowboy, not be a political football.
Dusty
May 31st, 2009
8:55 pm
Dear jewboy,
If I go to church and don’t murder someone, then I do follow one commandemnt that Jesus found helpful. Thou shalt not kill.
Therefore, according to my reasoning, any church or sect suggesting murder is not following the basis of Christian faith, that is love and salvation, not murder. Were you not taught the same rules as Jesus at the synagogue?
Linville
May 31st, 2009
8:55 pm
This is simple. It’s civil disobedience–criminal in this case. Doesn’t matter if you’re pro-either, you either believe we’re in a country of laws or we’re not.
The S*B should be caught and tried for murder.
jewcowboy
May 31st, 2009
8:57 pm
DAve R,
“Murder is murder. Nothing more, nothing less.”
If you believe that, then you have a rather simple view of the world. Nothing wrong with that, per se, unless you plan on participating in the real world and not just a blog.
Michael H. Smith
May 31st, 2009
8:58 pm
You should know by now there is a reason why I use my legal given name, Getalife.
I mean to stand behind my peaceful non-violent outspoken protest and I’m willingly ready to suffer the consequences for those causes.
Wyld Byll Hyltnyr
May 31st, 2009
9:02 pm
Which one, the guy who killed the Dr or the Doctor who killed thousands of babies? I beleive both are equally repugnant.
jewcowboy
May 31st, 2009
9:02 pm
Dusty,
I’m just pointing out when you say “strange sect” it all depends on your perspective. I would suspect the Westboro Bapatist Church would view you as not following the basis of the Christian faith.
I rule Andy
May 31st, 2009
9:03 pm
Oh yeah!
Love and forgiveness… losta that around here especially from the America hating conservatives.
ewwwwwwwwwww
jewcowboy
May 31st, 2009
9:05 pm
AmVet,
“Sunspot provided an opinion. And views it as a fact.
Not one scintilla of data, evidence or information to back it up.”
Sounds just like Cheney and his fellow neo-cons.
I Obsess About Andy, Eewww
May 31st, 2009
9:06 pm
The “science” loving liberals and their thirteenth century spam filter.
Hahahahahaha, they can’t even master basic computer software, they want to take on the environment.
Silly.
jewcowboy
May 31st, 2009
9:12 pm
“The “science” loving liberals and their thirteenth century spam filter.”
That’s where those “intelligent design” classes come in.
josef nix
May 31st, 2009
9:14 pm
jewcowboy–you said it better than I did. Back during the vice-presidential debate the only place the two agreed, in lockstep, was on the matter of “gay marriage.” My partner opined, “well at least we ought to be happy they’ve reached across the aisle in common cause on something. Just think, we can bring the country together. Ain’t we just special.”
TUESDAY VANDY GIRL
May 31st, 2009
9:17 pm
murder isn;t terrorism. I’m pro choice but having read a lot of what Dr Tiller said , I never liked him. He was smarmy, like that atheist guy who sues everyone over the pledge, the money, etc.
As someone who does like to see people put their money where their mouth is, i can’t be too critical of the shooter..but he will have to deal with the consequences.
Dusty
May 31st, 2009
9:23 pm
How you like to argue, jewcowboy,
You know as well as I do that Westboro Baptist Church is an “independent” church set up by a man who is an independent misguided thinker, a man who thinks he “supports God’s law”. Then he makes his own law. That is a sect!
Phelps, Westboro’s “minister”, has a long hate list. My denomination. a major Christian group, is on it. The man is deranged but he has the right of free speech to spread his “word”. To think that he is in any way symbolic of Christian faith is a misguided thought of your own.
Would you say that Obama’s former minister is anymore Christ-like than Phelps? On what basis?
jewcowboy
May 31st, 2009
9:24 pm
josef nix,
“Just think, we can bring the country together. Ain’t we just special.”
I had to laugh out loud at that
josef nix
May 31st, 2009
9:28 pm
Dusty, don’t know what jewcowboy was taught, but I was taught to read the centuries of decisions handed down on the subject, study the rationale(s), and come to my own conclusions. My own conclusion, which seems to be the most consistent rabbinical opinion, is that the first trimester is the woman’s decision. the second trimester, think about it really hard and you better have a compelling reason, and the third trimester, only if the mother’s life is at stake. Your opinions appear more in line with Maimonides
jewcowboy
May 31st, 2009
9:29 pm
“He was smarmy”
Quite enough reason enough for death, I’m sure. Rush better watch out if that’s the case.
“i can’t be too critical of the shooter..”
Wait a second, you can’t be too critical of someone who walked into a church, shot and killed someone?
jewcowboy
May 31st, 2009
9:31 pm
“Would you say that Obama’s former minister is anymore Christ-like than Phelps? On what basis?”
I wouldn’t say anyone was more Christ-like.
TUESDAY VANDY GIRL
May 31st, 2009
9:34 pm
JCB,
I said he will have to deal with the consequences
RW-(the original)
May 31st, 2009
9:34 pm
jewcowboy,
Phelps of Westboro Church fame is a Democrat so maybe I agree with you about a “strange sect.”
TUESDAY VANDY GIRL
May 31st, 2009
9:37 pm
excellent point, RW.. the clintons had Phelps at their first innaugural
getalife
May 31st, 2009
9:44 pm
Michael H. Smith ,
Good, turn yourself in.
jewcowboy
May 31st, 2009
9:45 pm
Dusty,
“To think that he is in any way symbolic of Christian faith is a misguided thought of your own.”
Phelps says he is strict believer of Calvinism, and through his acts he does appear to stick to the five points, therefore is a representative of Christianity. Maybe just not your kind.
jewcowboy
May 31st, 2009
9:49 pm
RW-(the original),
Your point is? He was also a civil right attorney who won many cases to advance civil rights. Saddam Hussein was an ally of the Bush I administration. People can change, for better or worse.
Dusty
May 31st, 2009
9:50 pm
Dear joseph Nix,
Are you saying you were taught much more than the ten commandments? Then you said you were taught many things and left to make your own decisions, such as when to have an abortion. Is that “making your own decision”?
I was taught many things at church none of which involved abortion. As I have said, the main theme was and is love and salvation. The old Testament was a history and background and is still considered the greatest literature in the world. The New Testment gives us Christ and his saving message. No hate. No murder.
The major guide I was taught by my parents and ministers was “Do what you believe is right”. I am convinced that this is a common principle of Americans, one that keeps us independent and just.
jewcowboy
May 31st, 2009
9:52 pm
“Saddam Hussein was an ally of the Bush I administration”
Sorry, that meant to be Reagan not Bush I.
I rule Andy
May 31st, 2009
9:53 pm
And to think, you wingbutternuts are just a bad VP pick away from what could’ve been the deciding vote that ends abortion, and if it weren’t for your bad choices in 2000 and 2004 the liburals probably wouldn’t be on the verge of a super Majority…
But you wingbutternuts just don’t learn from your mistakes, that’s been proven time and time again….
ewwwwwwwwwwwwww
ken
May 31st, 2009
9:53 pm
One can kill a baby but I cannot kill a Blad Eagle ?
AmVet
May 31st, 2009
9:56 pm
jewcowboy, this is the kinder, gentler version.
Ask her about the hideously repulsive things she said to get temporarily banned from here recently. (And as you can see you really gotta shiite the bed to get tossed from this joint!)
Funny how the faithful trot out the fact that that heinous scumbag Phelps is a Democrat. As if that matters?
Of course the Republicans don’t have ALL of the twisted, christo-fascist sociopaths…
jt
May 31st, 2009
9:57 pm
Kamchak-
We spoke about “Battlefield Earth”.
Did you do Harry Turtledove’s “Colonization” series?
Dusty
May 31st, 2009
9:59 pm
jewcowboy,
Phelps is a follower of Calvin? He is neither Presbyterian nor Baptist. He is a follower of his own misguided imagination. He should try following Christ and not blame any Reformation reformer for his own instability.
By the way, you never answer questions. Taught ten commandments? Obama’s minister? Evasion by deletion?
chuck
May 31st, 2009
10:00 pm
Dusty, you said:
>>>>I was taught by my parents and ministers was “Do what you believe is right”.<<<<
This is a major problem with the world. If we all “DO WHAT WE BELIEVE IS RIGHT”, the world will be a huge mess….oh yeah, we do and it is.
It isn’t for us to DECIDE what is right. GOD HAS ALREADY DONE THAT. It is up to us to DO WHAT GOD SAYS IS RIGHT.
jewcowboy
May 31st, 2009
10:05 pm
Dusty,
You asked, “Would you say that Obama’s former minister is anymore Christ-like than Phelps? On what basis?”
I answered, “I wouldn’t say anyone was more Christ-like.”
jt
May 31st, 2009
10:06 pm
ken
May 31st, 2009
9:53 pm
One can kill a baby but I cannot kill a Blad Eagle ?
I went fishing for Salmon in Alaska one time. The “federales” out numbered the fisherman 2 to 1. You were allowed only one and they would most definetly check the “one” salmon you caught down to a gnats arse.(weight,size,etc…). Meanwhile, a coupla hundred yards up the river, a few bears were catching hundreds and just eating their heads, throwing the rest in the river.
I rule Andy
May 31st, 2009
10:07 pm
Phelps is a democrat and timothy mcveigh was a conservative…
who killed more people for thier ideology?
ewwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww
jt
May 31st, 2009
10:11 pm
JCB-
I answered, “I wouldn’t say anyone was more Christ-like.”
http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_ss_gw?url=search-alias%3Daps&field-keywords=chuck+norris+movies&x=13&y=16
jewcowboy
May 31st, 2009
10:12 pm
“Phelps is a follower of Calvin?”
I would say he is strict follower of Calvinism, and its tenant of sovereign grace. As does he.
Could it be you do not like your religion to be identified with such vile actions his church takes part in, though in reality his church is following a very strict interpretation of Christian theological system?
jewcowboy
May 31st, 2009
10:13 pm
I rule Andy,
“Phelps is a democrat and timothy mcveigh was a conservative…
who killed more people for thier ideology?”
Salient point.
josef nix
May 31st, 2009
10:14 pm
No, I didn’t say I was taught many things. I said I was taught to go and read the centuries of rabbinical decisions and study them and come to my own conclusions, in other words to listen to what others say before coming to a conclusion.
I said you appear to be more in line with Maimonides. Called the father of the Renaissance, his bottom line (for Jews) was that there is the Torah, that’s law. You would call them the first five books of the Old Testament. When science and the rest of the scriptures appear to be in conflict, the scriptures (NOT the Torah) are to be considered allegorical.Read his “Guide for the Perplexed.”
Bear in mind that Judaism is more concerned with how to live a just life in the here and now and not with what happens once we’re outta here. Christianity is more concerned with the eternal. As one of the wags put it, what’s a Christian? A Jew with an insurance policy.
jewcowboy
May 31st, 2009
10:16 pm
jt,
“When God said “Let there be light” Chuck Norris said “Say Please.”” ~ Chuck Norris
RW-(the original)
May 31st, 2009
10:17 pm
jewcowwboy,
A better question might be what your point is. You’re using facts not in evidence to ascribe today’s murder to a group effort and the only group you’ve named is one of yours.
Personally I prefer to wait for some facts, but maybe that’s just me.
Dusty
May 31st, 2009
10:17 pm
By the way, did the news reports say that the killer of Dr. Tiller belonged to Phelp’s Westboro Church? I had not read that.
jewcowboy
May 31st, 2009
10:18 pm
“what’s a Christian? A Jew with an insurance policy.”
Just nearly shot my iced tea through my nose with that one!
jewcowboy
May 31st, 2009
10:19 pm
Dusty,
No, I was just making a point about your “strange sects” comment. Like it or not the “strange sects” still belong to Christianity, even if you do not follow them.
jewcowboy
May 31st, 2009
10:27 pm
RW-(the original),
“You’re using facts not in evidence to ascribe today’s murder to a group effort and the only group you’ve named is one of yours.”
I gave a detail of what the U.S. Code identifies as “terrorism.” If the murderer killed the doctor based on his political beliefs on abortion and it was pre-meditated then by definition of U.S. Code it is terrorism. If it was a neighbor who had a spat with the doctor about the azalea bushes on his property, it would not be terrorism. A murder will always be a murder, but it can be many things as well.
You are right; more facts need to come forward before the person is charged. Given the doctors history with those who take the laws into their own hands, I’m pretty sure this was not over azaleas. But you never know…
josef nix
May 31st, 2009
10:31 pm
jewcowboy–we got a chuckle out of the Chuck Norris comment. Back in high school during a debate my opponent began his rebuttal with “And then there was light, and Josef saw that it was good!” Needless to say he won!
Dusty
May 31st, 2009
10:32 pm
jewcowboy,
Phelps religion is not part of my Christian theology any more than all the killings in the Old Testament are significent in your heritage. You really want to tie this unstable man to all Christians, don’t you?
Every faith has a few believers who twist themselves into psychotic psychics. They may call themselves Christians. Jim Jones was one of them. Are you willing to say that Jews have no such persons in their history?
josef nix
May 31st, 2009
10:35 pm
jewcowboy–ah, but did he belong to the United Citizens Against Azalean Proliferation?
jewcowboy
May 31st, 2009
10:40 pm
“Are you willing to say that Jews have no such persons in their history?”
Absolutely not. You don’t have to be proud of them, but you cannot deny their existence just because they do not ascribe to the version of religion you do.
Like it or not Phelps is strict follower of Calvinism, and its tenant of sovereign grace which is a part of Christianity.
Religions have many nasty parts, and if you accept the good, you have to recognize the foul.
jewcowboy
May 31st, 2009
10:42 pm
josef nix,
“United Citizens Against Azalean Proliferation?”
They wage war against the Federation Magnolian Acceptance.
Linville
May 31st, 2009
10:45 pm
Wild Bill,
The guy who killed the doctor. I share your feelings about the good Doctor. But what he did was legal, like it or not. The guy who shot him should be punished. Civil disobedience has a price, if the killer was serious about his cause he’d have known this and been ready for the consequences…kind of like a suicide bomber.
Dusty
May 31st, 2009
10:48 pm
joseph Nix,
Interesting little play on words you gave us about Jews and Christians. Does not seem quite correct to me.
Jews have been concerned about life after death for some time. Isaiah wrote beautiful literature predicting the coming of Christ as a Savior. The Psalma are also marvelously written requests many times for relief and joy and rescue from the darkness of death. Did you miss that?
As to Chriatianity as an insurance policy, you may be correct. It is about the only FREE insurance I have heard about and about the only one that carries assurance with it. I hope you have a policy.
Goodnight all. Good discussion.
josef nix
May 31st, 2009
10:48 pm
jewcowboy–“’Are you willing to say that Jews have no such persons in their history?’
‘Absolutely not. You don’t have to be proud of them, but you cannot deny their existence just because they do not ascribe to the version of religion you do.’”
Rabbi Meir Kahane comes to mind.
Dave
May 31st, 2009
10:48 pm
AmVet,
Seeing that secularism has given us some of the world’s worst governments, tyrants and murderers, I’ll take my stand over yours any day. And before you go there, I’ll see your Inquisition and Crusades, and raise you a Holocaust (Hitler), Cultural Revolution (Mao), Stalin’s Pograms, Pol Pot’s killing fields, Robert Mugabe’s current trainwreck in Zimbabwe, and of course, abortion in America; more people murdered by so-called “enlightened” secularists in a span of 70 years than both the Inquisition and Crusades combined. Secularism looks pretty sad to me, a person with three degrees. If that’s dumb, then we are way screwed.
So much for liberal “tolerance” and “open mindedness.”
Bud Wiser
May 31st, 2009
10:51 pm
Murderers, no matter what their ’cause’, no matter what their circumstance, should be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law.
Of course, I believe in the quick application of the death penalty as well, if for no other reason would clear up some valuable cell space for the soon to be investigated, prosecuted, tried and convicted, scam artists at ACORN.
Paying these criminals even more of our taxpayer money for their alleged desire to ‘assist’ the US Census Bureau in the upcoming 2010 census taking would mark yet another fraudulent operation by the lying s.o.b. that currently occupies 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue.
Linville
May 31st, 2009
10:51 pm
JCB
What if the killer was just against abortion and wanted to kill the doc because he performed them…kind of like the people in Gwinnett who want to shut down the Love Shack because it offends their beliefs? If they bombed Love Shack would it be terrorism or religious backlash?
jewcowboy
May 31st, 2009
10:51 pm
Dusty,
Phelps in particular highlights Calvin’s doctrine of unconditional election and limited atonement. Both of which are cornerstones of many fundamentalist Baptist Churches. He just takes it to the extreme.
jewcowboy
May 31st, 2009
10:53 pm
“As to Chriatianity as an insurance policy, you may be correct. It is about the only FREE insurance”
10% is free? Sounds like Bush accounting.
jewcowboy
May 31st, 2009
10:54 pm
g’night Dusty. Nice talking with you.
jewcowboy
May 31st, 2009
10:59 pm
Linville,
“If they bombed Love Shack would it be terrorism or religious backlash?”
According to U.S. Code it would depend on their motivation. If it was “premeditated, politically motivated,” then yes according to U.S. code it is terrorism. Would it be prosecuted as such, probably not.
jewcowboy
May 31st, 2009
11:01 pm
Linville,
“terrorism or religious backlash”
Might it be both? Or is religious terrorism confined to Islam?
One Voice
May 31st, 2009
11:01 pm
Linville,
You may want to look up the term “civil disobedience,” which you have used twice. Murder is certainly not civil disobedience. Civil disobedience was practiced by Thoreau, Gandhi, and MLK. (Hint: the key word is “civil”).
Kamchak
May 31st, 2009
11:04 pm
jt
No I’m not familiar with that series. Please elaborate.
josef nix
May 31st, 2009
11:08 pm
Dusty, sorry you’re having to check out, but in case…it isn’t that Jews don’t contemplate what happens when we’re gone, indeed resurrection is one of Maimonides 13 Principles, it’s just that it is not CENTERED on it. Granddaddy used to say of Granny that “she believes in the G-d of Wrath and a day of judgment and believes in doing G-d’s work on earth!”
Do I have an insurance policy? Well, ask some of my Jewish friends and I do. When we get into the argument over whether or not there’s an afterlife, my contention is, well since we really don’t know and we’re afforded the option, I’ll go for yes since I’m an optimist.
jewcowboy–10%? Heh, heh. Mama used to say she might could be a Calvinist if she ever met one who thought s/he was predestined to go to hell.
One Voice
May 31st, 2009
11:08 pm
I find it humorous that Dusty is trying to distinguish between a “legitimate” Christian group and a religious sect. All religious groups are sects. All religious groups are victims and perpetrators of indoctrination. If you don’t understand that, then you don’t understand what indoctrination is. It’s a crime (figuratively, but should be literally) how millions of adults brainwash children during a very vulnerable psychological period in their lives, causing them to essentially be intellectually handicapped and unable to process evidence for the rest of their lives (exhibit A: Andy; exhibit B: Dusty).
jewcowboy
May 31st, 2009
11:10 pm
One Voice,
“All religious groups are sects.”
Thank you. You said more succinctly what I was trying to get across.
Dave
May 31st, 2009
11:11 pm
I really don’t consider murder to be “civil disobedience.” You can protest all you want, whichever side you’re on, but when you choose to take somebody’s life, that’s way out of bounds. It’s as uncivilized as you can get. This person should be tried, and if found guilty, punished to the fullest extent of the law. If it’s the death penalty, then so be it. I’m against abortion all day long, but I’ll never kill a doctor, bomb a clinic, or treat a woman as a parasite because she had one. And I won’t hate somebody with the vitriol I’ve seen on this blog, just because they happen to be pro-choice. Disagreement does not equal hate.
jewcowboy
May 31st, 2009
11:12 pm
josef nix,
“Mama used to say she might could be a Calvinist if she ever met one who thought s/he was predestined to go to hell.”
LOL. I think that just about sums it up
jewcowboy
May 31st, 2009
11:15 pm
Dave,
“Disagreement does not equal hate.”
Hear, Hear!
josef nix
May 31st, 2009
11:20 pm
One Voice–just playing devil’s advocate here, but you seem to be rather doctrinaire yourself, so does that make you sectarian?
RW-(the original)
May 31st, 2009
11:20 pm
jewcowboy @ 10:27,
From that comment I assume I could read through the entirety of this thread and find you quoting a criminal code, but it wouldn’t have anything to do with your comment about the murder and Phelps. Phelps is one of yours and I doubt this murderer is, but if you want to claim him be my guest.
josef nix
May 31st, 2009
11:21 pm
Dave…I second that. Me? I love to disagree!
One Voice
May 31st, 2009
11:25 pm
Josef,
You seem not to understand what indoctrination is either. You may want to look that up. If you can get your hands on a Winter/Spring edition of the peer reviewed journal “Essays in the Philosophy of Humanism” you should read “The Psychological Processes and Consequences of Fundamentalist Indoctrination.” It would help you understand the dynamics of it a little better.
josef nix
May 31st, 2009
11:29 pm
Dave, the choice of the word vitriol is most apt. Besides, none of us has a patent on the truth, and I certainly don’t. If I did, then heaven help us all!
jewcowboy
May 31st, 2009
11:33 pm
RW-(the original),
The quotation of U.S. Code was in response to your assertion that, “FYI, it is a murder. Nothing more – nothing less.” According to U.S. Code, depending on the motivation it is indeed more than just murder
The comment about Phelps was not me saying he was responsible, it was in response to Dusty’s,”Therefore, according to my reasoning, any church or sect suggesting murder is not following the basis of Christian faith, that is love and salvation, not murder.”
I was not connecting the two; they were two different conversations you chose to combine.
“Phelps is one of yours”
Exactly how? Because at one time he was identified as Democrat on a voting registration? If you are a Republican, I would stray away from that line of reasoning. Lunatics are not limited to one side of the aisle.
jewcowboy
May 31st, 2009
11:36 pm
“According to U.S. Code, depending on the motivation it is indeed more than just murder”
That should have read, “it could indeed be more than just murder.” Azalea bush motivation excluded.
getalife
May 31st, 2009
11:39 pm
“Attorney General Directs US Marshals To Protect Abortion Clinics .”
We will defeat the American taliban.
RW-(the original)
May 31st, 2009
11:48 pm
jewcowboy,
Double or nothing. Are you sure I said it’s a murder, nothing more nothing less?
Kamchak
May 31st, 2009
11:49 pm
“The profession of shaman has many advantages. It offers high status with a safe livelihood free of work in the dreary, sweaty sense. In most societies it offers legal privileges and immunities not granted to other men. But it is hard to see how a man who has been given a mandate from on High to spread tidings of joy to all mankind can be seriously interested in taking up a collection to pay his salary; it causes one to suspect that the shaman is on the moral level of any other con man.
But it is lovely work if you can stomach it.”
Robert A Heinlein
josef nix
May 31st, 2009
11:59 pm
Kamchak–great quote! One of my favorites along these lines is Arthur Koestler’s “There are two sides of the human mind coined in the evolutionary mould. One side is responsible for the splendour of our cathedrals. The other is responsible for the gargoyls which adorn them to remind us that the world is full of devils and succubi. It all serves to point out that somewhere in its evolutionary ascent to prominence, something has gone terrible wrong.”
josef nix
June 1st, 2009
12:12 am
well, folks, enjoyed it but got a kvetchin’ spouse wanting to know when I’m going to shut up and come to bed…rather talk to y’all, but, well, y’all don’t bring me breakfast in bed…
TUESDAY VANDY GIRL
June 1st, 2009
12:12 am
“The law is an ass”.
Considering Eric Holder, Judge “puerto ricans make better decisions” Sotomayer, and of course..the illustrious Obambam, I’d say Chuck D. had it right all along.
I Obsess About Andy, Eewww
June 1st, 2009
5:43 am
Obozo’s speech Thursday from Cairo University will try to ~~~~~~soften the fury~~~~~~ toward the United States among so many of the world’s 1.5 billion Muslims, ~~~~~ignited~~~~~ by the U.S. occupation of Iraq and the hands-off attitude toward the Israeli-Palestinian conflict of his predecessor George W. Bush.-Urinal/ Jihad
Yeah, they were so upset about the invasion of Iraq that they blew up the World Trade Center and slaughtered 3000 people, oh wait, never mind.
Bimbo AJC, blah, blah, blah, just like little obozo’s TelePrompter, blah, blah, blah.
I rule Andy
June 1st, 2009
6:17 am
No idiot you got it backwards. They were so upset about the world trade center and the slaughter of 3000 people, they invaded Iraq… The chickehawk neo cons that is…
ewwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww
I rule Andy
June 1st, 2009
6:29 am
I wonder why they haven’t officially released the suspects name? Like I said, Kansas is so wingbutternutty that there are people at the highest levels of government who will protect this guy…
ewwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww
Linville
June 1st, 2009
7:01 am
Dave,
I agree that it’s murder. But if it’s undertaken because of a disagreement over politics it still falls under the ‘civil disobedience’ label in my book. It’s similar to what tree huggers have done spiking trees.
Now that the guy is caught we’ll get to find out what was really going on.
I rule Andy
June 1st, 2009
7:11 am
No, just making sure you get your “facts” straight since you can’t seem to pull your head out and see the truth…
ewwwwwwwwwwwwwwww
One Voice
June 1st, 2009
7:21 am
Linville,
Once again, look up civil disobedience. The defining factor is not whether the issue involves politics or not; many issues involve politics. Civil disobedience, by definition, is peaceful disobedience, the key word being “civil”. Murder is antithetical to civil disobedience. I guess anyone can make up definitions to fit words they have nothing to do with (see: Patriot Act, Clear Skies Act, etc.), but that doesn’t mean intelligent people will accept that bs. You should know what a term means before you use it to make an argument.
And yes, we do not know for sure that the murderer was a fundamentalist Christian, but none of us will be surprised when it is revealed that he is. Sure, Christian churches are denouncing his act now, but I’d expect nothing less from organizations rooted in falsehood and hypocrisy..
jt
June 1st, 2009
7:21 am
Kamchak-
In regard to Harry Turtledove’s “Colonization”
You HAVE to check it out, in order.
500 years ago, a race of 3ft high lizards sent a probe to earth and took a picture of a knight on horseback. Because they judged all life by their own standards(slow growth,no tech innovations,etc…)they dispatched a huge colonization fleet. The fleet arrives in 1940. They have to deal with Hitler,Stalin,Roosevelt,etc…..
Some lizards get addicted to Ginger. Some defect to America to play baseball. It is hilarious.
Kamchak
June 1st, 2009
7:27 am
jt
Thank you. Yes, I will check it out.
BDAtlanta
June 1st, 2009
7:31 am
Tell you what, you Conservative Nut Jobs start acting like you have some sense and quit killing people for doing what is legally accepted work and we liberals will quit trying to take your guns away.
Until that day arrives, we should do what we can to limit your ability to own guns.
BDAtlanta
June 1st, 2009
7:39 am
Dave wrote:
Seeing that secularism has given us some of the world’s worst governments, tyrants and murderers, I’ll take my stand over yours any day. And before you go there, I’ll see your Inquisition and Crusades, and raise you a Holocaust (Hitler)
Dave, Hitler was a Christian:
“Hence today I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator: by defending myself against the Jew, I am fighting for the work of the Lord.”
( Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf, Ralph Mannheim, ed., New York: Mariner Books, 1999, p. 65. )
——————————————————————————–
“My feeling as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded only by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned men to fight against them and who, God’s truth! was greatest not as a sufferer but as a fighter. In boundless love as a Christian and as a man I read through the passage which tells us how the Lord at last rose in His might and seized the scourge to drive out of the Temple the brood of vipers and adders. How terrific was his fight against the Jewish poison. Today, after two thousand years, with deepest emotion I recognize more profoundly than ever before the fact that it was for this that He had to shed his blood upon the Cross. As a Christian I have no duty to allow myself to be cheated, but I have the duty to be a fighter for truth and justice. And as a man I have the duty to see to it that human society does not suffer the same catastrophic collapse as did the civilization of the ancient world some two thousand years ago — a civilization which was driven to its ruin through this same Jewish people.
“Then indeed when Rome collapsed there were endless streams of new German bands flowing into the Empire from the North; but, if Germany collapses today, who is there to come after us? German blood upon this earth is on the way to gradual exhaustion unless we pull ourselves together and make ourselves free!
“And if there is anything which could demonstrate that we are acting rightly, it is the distress that daily grows. For as a Christian I have also a duty to my own people. And when I look on my people I see them work and work and toil and labor, and at the end of the week they have only for their wages wretchedness and misery. When I go out in the morning and see these men standing in their queues and look into their pinched faces, then I believe I would be no Christian, but a very devil, if I felt no pity for them, if I did not, as did our Lord two thousand years ago, turn against those by whom today this poor people are plundered and exploited.”
( Adolf Hitler, in a speech delivered at Munich, April 12, 1922; from Norman H. Baynes, ed., The Speeches of Adolf Hitler: April 1922-August 1939, Vol. 1, New York: Oxford University Press, 1942, pp. 19-20. )
Ray
June 1st, 2009
7:47 am
BD,
Do you read the print edition of the AJC every day? Each day, there is another murder, another old couple beaten up with a net haul of about $30 to show for it, some police officer shot and countless other murders and home break ins that we never hear about. Let us hope that some dude, about 6′4″ doesn’t come through your bedroom door in the middle of the night anytime soon. News Flash!!!! He’s not there to have a beer with you. Then we will see how you feel about owning a gun.
I rule Andy
June 1st, 2009
7:55 am
It’s fun to make Andy dance….
ewwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww
BDAtlanta
June 1st, 2009
7:55 am
Ray,
News Flash! There is no boogy man! What’s it like living in perpetual fear that someone is out to get you?
Do you think someone wants YOUR stuff? Maybe you should put a fence with barb wire around your property.
A sad life it is to live in that kind of fear. Maybe you turn off the local news now and then. You realize hearing about murders and robberies on the TV makes it sound like more of it is going on than is actually happening? When is the last time someone on your street got shot? Got robbed? It’s pretty darned infrequent.
AmVet
June 1st, 2009
8:03 am
Dave, pretty predictable retort.
Here’s one that is not.
If as you inanely contend, secularists have no moral compass, then you certainly also agree that you religionist’s must be using one that is broken.
Or perhaps designed for a different orb…
I rule Andy
June 1st, 2009
8:08 am
To think you wingbutternuts could’ve been cheering the appointment of the 5th conservative judge on the SCOTUS right now instead of tilting at windmills… Roe v Wade could be overturned, sensible gun control measures could’ve been rescinded, god knows what other kind of conservative shenanigans could be facilitated with that vaunted 5th conservative SCOTUS judge… You wingbutternuts blew it big time, especially since Obama will be appointing another justice by 2012… Souter and Ginsburg could be Scalia II and Thomas II, but no the extremists who support killings of Dr’s are in control of the GOP so there will be no compromise, no move to the middle (where MOST americans actually ARE). Instead we got Andy here screaming MORE MORE MORE… (you know, rather than actually working to better the country, wingbutternuts want the country to fail to bolster thier ideology)
SICK….
ewwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww
Copyleft
June 1st, 2009
8:30 am
So can we now label the anti-abortion nuts, whose radical “fringe” commits acts of crime and violence, a “terrorist movement”?
You know, just like they try to paint all Muslims as “terrorists” because of the violent crimes of THEIR radical fringe?
I suggest the Department of Homeland Security step up the monitoring and infiltration of all suspected anti-choice groups and treat them as potential terrorists. Maybe a few pre-emptive lockups, too… without trial, counsel, or charges. After all religious fanaticism is proof of anti-American bias, we already know that. We could invent a new category of UnPerson, call it “unlawful combatants” or something….
Hmm. This is sounding better and better!
(Note to the slow of wit: Yes, I’m comparing you anti-choice zealots directly to Al Qaeda. It’s thoroughly deserved.)
Mrs. Godzilla
June 1st, 2009
9:16 am
Do we remember this……
“Remember how Republicans in Congress were all in a dither about the DHS report on right-wing extremist organizations as potential terrorist threats? The Tiller gunman was affiliated with at least two of those organizations. In addition to his connection with Operation Rescue, he was a tax protester, a “sovereign citizen,” and a member of the Freemen. Maybe someone should ask Rep. Peter King of New York (ranking Republican on the House Homeland Security Committee) and John Hinderaker of PowerLine whether they still consider the threat of right-wing terrorism to be mere Obama Administration fantasy. (That’s beside the fact that the report was ordered up during the Bush Administration.)”
the whole piece is here:
http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/archives/individual/2009_06/018424.php
DB, Gwinnettian
June 1st, 2009
9:17 am
Upstairs @@ wrote:
Downstairs you said I practiced moral relativism.
And I stand by that. You and Andy immediately reacted to the news to make sure anyone reading was aware of what the murder victim had done because… well, why else would you do that? To make the murder seem more justifiable.
Of course you aren’t going to come right out and say that it was justified.
I rule Andy
June 1st, 2009
9:33 am
The murderer was also a teabagger? Go figure…
ewwwwwwwwwwwwww
Bubba
June 1st, 2009
9:35 am
Who the heck is Andy, and why is that one guy (or gal) so obsessed with him?
@@
June 1st, 2009
9:39 am
DB:
Stand by it if you want — there’s nothing there. You’re “a man oustanding in your field”
where facts are conveniently ignored allowing you to render judgment….justified or “knot”.
jewcowboy
June 1st, 2009
9:41 am
Copyleft,
“Yes, I’m comparing you anti-choice zealots directly to Al Qaeda. It’s thoroughly deserved.”
I would concur.
DB, Gwinnettian
June 1st, 2009
10:00 am
Speaking of ignoring facts, @@, here’s what Bill O’Reilly did to gin up hatred of this doctor.
Bill O’Reilly will most certainly decry the death of Kansas doctor George Tiller, who was killed Sunday while attending church services with his wife. Tiller, O’Reilly will say, was a man who was guilty of barbaric acts, but a civilized society does not resort to lawless murder, even against its worst members. [...]
But there’s no other person who bears as much responsibility for the characterization of Tiller as a savage on the loose, killing babies willy-nilly thanks to the collusion of would-be sophisticated cultural elites, a bought-and-paid-for governor and scofflaw secular journalists. Tiller’s name first appeared on “The Factor” on Feb. 25, 2005. Since then, O’Reilly and his guest hosts have brought up the doctor on 28 more episodes, including as recently as April 27 of this year. Almost invariably, Tiller is described as “Tiller the Baby Killer.”
Tiller, O’Reilly likes to say, “destroys fetuses for just about any reason right up until the birth date for $5,000.” He’s guilty of “Nazi stuff,” said O’Reilly on June 8, 2005; a moral equivalent to NAMBLA and al-Qaida, he suggested on March 15, 2006. “This is the kind of stuff happened in Mao’s China, Hitler’s Germany, Stalin’s Soviet Union,” said O’Reilly on Nov. 9, 2006.
[...]
While he never advocated anything violent or illegal, the Fox bully repeatedly portrayed the doctor as a murderer on the loose, allowed to do whatever he wanted by corrupt and decadent authorities. “Also, it looks like Dr. Tiller, who some call Tiller the Baby Killer, is spending a large amount of money in order to get Mr. Morrison elected. That opens up all kinds of questions,” said O’Reilly on Nov. 6, 2006, in one of many suggestions that Tiller was improperly influencing the election.
DB, Gwinnettian
June 1st, 2009
10:38 am
A blast from the past. Sarah Palin was just so sure that Willam Ayers was a terrorist, but when asked about abortion clinic bombers, well…
“There’s no question that Bill Ayers via his own admittance was one who sought to destroy our U.S. Capitol and our Pentagon. That is a domestic terrorist. There’s no question there. Now, others who would want to engage in harming innocent Americans or facilities that uh, it would be unacceptable. I don’t know if you’re going to use the word terrorist there.“
@@
June 1st, 2009
10:45 am
…one more thing, DB, you and many of your leftist cohorts could also find yourself guilty or what you accuse.
Your support of Obama’s policies that mirror those of George Bush would place you in said category. When Bush did it, it was morally wrong. When Obama follows suit, it’s morally right?
You’re lookin’ weak in your argument, DB.
Copyleft
June 1st, 2009
10:53 am
Which policies are those, @@? Which Bush policies is DB supporting that Obama has continued? Or are you just ASSUMING that DB approves of every move Obama has made? Please give specifics.
@@
June 1st, 2009
10:55 am
Didn’t see your 10:00 and 10:38, DB.
I’m neither Sarah Palin or Bill O’Reilly — what their comments have to do with me escapes.
There’s a poem entitled “The Dash”. It recognizes the importance of what we do between the date of our birth and death. I am using my dash to help disabled children in more ways than one.
How are you using yours, DB?
DB, Gwinnettian
June 1st, 2009
10:57 am
@@, deflect all you want.
You’re the one who demanded that Jay give Tiller the “credit” HE’s due within minutes of the news hitting the street.
And you get to live with the violence your radical right wing network has unleashed upon this nation’s law-abiding citizens.
@@
June 1st, 2009
11:12 am
I’m not deflecting here, DB. You, however are continuing to ignore the fact that Dr. Tiller circumvented the law in the interest of money and in so doing, jeopardized the health of mothers through willful negligence. Several died as a result of sepsis.
Did Mr. Roeder receive money for his evil deed? He did not!
It’s is my fondest hope that he receive justice though….if not in this lifetime, then the next.
jewcowboy
June 1st, 2009
11:30 am
@@,
“You, however are continuing to ignore the fact that Dr. Tiller circumvented the law in the interest of money and in so doing, jeopardized the health of mothers through willful negligence.”
I would have to say it seems you are trying to somewhat excuse Roeder’s deed by bringing up the victims flaws. The bottom line is the victim made a living within the confines of the law, and was murdered for someone else’s religious and political beliefs.
jewcowboy
June 1st, 2009
11:41 am
sepsis:
“The incidence of sepsis — a severe, whole-body immune response to infection — has increased by an annualized average of 8.7% a year in the U.S. over the past 22 years, according to research by investigators at Emory University School of Medicine and the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC).”
Not exactly isolated to abortion doctors I would say.
# in hospital sepsis related deaths in 2000 – 120,491
@@
June 1st, 2009
12:10 pm
jewcowboy:
made a living within the confines of the law,
So said the jury but like so many jurists, they were left uninformed.
The case offered no legal definition of what constitutes “financial affiliation” to the jurists. There was most definitely a financial affiliation (reward system) between Tiller and his second opinion provider.
O.J. was acquitted too but not many people believe he was innocent.
I’ve attempted three times to respond to Copyleft’s 10:53. This site is holding them hostage. Howz’bout you, Copyleft, list those Bush policies supported by Obama. Rendition, military tribunals, delayed withdrawal from Iraq, Af/Pak surge, aide to Iraq without benchmarks, FISA, TARP, failure to release photos. I could go on and on. Maybe DB can elaborate. I agree with Obama on everything except TARP and his Af/Pak policy.
I’m off to finish vacuuming the pool.
N.J,
June 1st, 2009
12:24 pm
Well at least one state that passed a “DOMA” act is now also passing a separate “Civil Unions” act that applies to everyone, gay or heterosexual that gives ANY couplev that chooses to live together rights which now only exist if one is “married”. There are many economic reasons to NOT choose marriage, even for those who are not gay, as many stumbling blocks are put up by the states in many areas and they often create cases where at the state level, the tax consequences of being married with two incomes and no children costs money on state income taxes while the civil union gives rights without loss of income.
N.J,
June 1st, 2009
12:25 pm
Nevada Partnership Bill Now Law
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LinkedinDiggFacebookMixxMySpaceYahoo! BuzzPermalinkBy STEVE FRIESS
Published: June 1, 2009
The Nevada Legislature voted into law a domestic partnership registry for same-sex and unmarried straight couples on Sunday evening, with the Assembly mustering the two-thirds vote required to override a veto by Gov. Jim Gibbons, a Republican.
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/06/01/us/01nevada.html?ref=global-home
This is it.
TUESDAY VANDY GIRL
June 1st, 2009
12:25 pm
Yep..the more I read here, the less I can criticize the shooter. It has nothing to do with right wrong or the law at this point. The shooter has obviously wounded the liberal horde close to its heart , and I love to see the agony of the enemy. Sad part is its the one area of agreement I have with the libs..pro choice. Oh well, I can live with being situational and opportunistic
DB, Gwinnettian
June 1st, 2009
12:26 pm
Roeder did NOT “receive money for his evil deed”? Really?
You know this how, @@? I’m sure the FBI would be interested.
N.J,
June 1st, 2009
12:48 pm
The fact that Obama is leaving much of what Bush started in place is no reflection on Obama at all. For much of it, he would required Congressional approval, and this would require a huge amount of political capital to be exhausted, while all he has to do now is leave the legislation in place, but not do what it allows the president to do,
He COULD ask Congress to pass a law OUTLAWING waterboarding for example. This would end up with a huge public debate, with Republicans using fear upon fear to tear down Obama and attempt to weaken his approval ratings. All he has to do now is leave the law in place, but tell the CIA that they cannot waterboard anyone. This leaves him with political capital, but still, no one gets tortured.
SaveOurRepublic
June 1st, 2009
12:58 pm
jt @ 14:47 (3/31) – Very well said! The police-state not only fully leverages “incidents” such as these to “justify” their Orwellian tactics….IME, sometimes has levels of involvement (ie – agent provacatuering, false-flag ops, etc.). For anyone who questions that, watch a documetary called “Terrorstorm” (free on Google Video & YouTube).
The usage of “domestic terrorism” is classic police-state propaganda. This act was one of murder, not “terrorism”. For those sheeple asking for utilization of the so-called “Patriot” Act against pro-lifers, be careful what you ask for…as you/your beliefs could be next (for addition to the Orwellian DHS “watch list”). Big Brothers has no “favorites”!
http://www.infowars.com
dw
June 1st, 2009
12:59 pm
The blanket statements that all pro-lifers are murders, or support murder, and that this case is domestic terrorism is bull. This was just a lone misguided individual. Happens everyday in different “arenas” of life. There are “nutbar” folks with what is called conservative thoughts as well as “nutbar” liberals. I totally disagree with the “doctors” stance on abortion, but do NOT support the actions of the person who took the “doctors” life. I would close with the notion that the “doctor” has now been informed of God’s stance on abortion – pro or con. That’s truly the only ones opinion that matters.
Tom
June 1st, 2009
2:10 pm
Isn’t this always the Republican way?? If they’re not involved, they are screamingly cheering on the sidelines. Most know not why. It’s just a part of the REQUIRED dogma.
Bud Wiser
June 1st, 2009
3:58 pm
*no*\
Copyleft
June 1st, 2009
4:39 pm
And that’s why you’re always wrong, Vandy Girl; you have no principles other than blind, ignorant hatred.
Dave
June 1st, 2009
6:20 pm
From BDAtlanta:
“Dave, Hitler was a Christian:”
Did you read what he wrote? How does it square with the Christian message? It doesn’t. Neither does killing 6,000,000+ people in his sick quest for world domination. You can call a Chevy Aveo a Cadillac all you want to, but it still doesn’t make it a Cadillac. Hitler was no more a Christian than I am a professional baseball player (and I’m not). Jesus said to love your neighbor (and enemies), not murder them (which is different from killing in war, self-defense, and capital punishment). Hitler, like many deranged monsters, perverts, shysters, con-men, etc., used Christ as a stump for his twisted cause (”God told me to…” Sound familiar?). That’s why you check things out and don’t just believe blindly (and that’s biblical too!). Anyone who did what Hitler did, especially using the name of God to do it, is anything but a Christian.
AmVet:
It’s not the compass that’s broken, it’s the people. The compass points in the correct direction, but the people try to go their own way, and fail to make it to the destination as a result.
N.J.
June 1st, 2009
6:50 pm
The commandment, the actual translation is not “thou shalt not kill” but though shalt not murder.
Oh those numbers about pregnancies out of wedlock with the father walking away from the situation still result numerically in TONS more whites who end up needing taxpayer support than Latino’s and Blacks put together.
COnservatives simply want it both ways. They dont want abortions to be legal, but they dont want to pay for the social services to support the results of those unwanted pregnancies. They dont want sex education in the schools so kids learn where babies come from and they dont want anyone providing contractives to the kids who are going to get pregnant without them and are not going to listen to “abstinance only” programs any more than “just say no” ended the drug trade.
N.J.
June 1st, 2009
6:54 pm
NO, the right wingers dont want it called “Domestic terrorism” because they dont want the DOZENS of pro life groups this guy was a member of to be called “terrorist” organizations.
This is rather hypocritical. Its like suggesting that Fundamentalist Islam is responsible for ALL Islamic terrorism, while Fundamentalist Christianity IS NOT responsible for the violence done by its members.
obama
June 3rd, 2009
7:28 pm
Jew Cowboy I’ll bet you attended a Reich-wing highschool.
obama
June 3rd, 2009
7:35 pm
Jew Cowboy then u should be in favor off keeping the prison in G open?
obama
June 3rd, 2009
7:40 pm
Jew cowboy Were you againest The Kurds being genocided? and what actions did you take againest that terrorism? Did you suggest RICOing every Islamic sect in the country after 9/11?