A case of domestic terrorism?


From the Wichita Eagle:

– George Tiller, the Wichita doctor who became a national lightning rod in the debate over abortion, was shot to death this morning as he walked into church services.

Tiller was shot just after 10 a.m. at Reformation Lutheran Church at 7601 E. 13th, where he was a member of the congregation. Witnesses and a police source confirmed Tiller was the victim.

No information has been released about whether a suspect is in custody….

Tiller has long been a focal point of protest by abortion opponents because his clinic, Women’s Health Care Services at 5701 E. Kellogg, is one of the few in the country where late-term abortions are performed.

Protesters blockaded Tiller’s clinic during Operation Rescue’s “Summer of Mercy” protests during the summer of 1991, and Tiller was shot by Rachelle Shannon at his clinic in 1993.

Tiller was wounded in both arms, and Shannon remains in prison for the shooting.

Tiller’s clinic was severely vandalized earlier this month. According to the Associated Press, his lawyer said wires to security cameras and outdoor lights were cut and that the vandals also cut through the roof and plugged the buildings’ downspouts. Rain poured through the roof and caused thousands of dollars of damage in the clinic. Tiller reportedly asked the FBI to investigate the incident.

228 comments Add your comment

ByteMe

May 31st, 2009
1:01 pm

Some “Pro Life” folks seem to have a very flexible set of morals.

buddy larsen

May 31st, 2009
1:24 pm

True, ByteMe, but nowhere near as flexible as those of pro late-term abortion folks.

getalife

May 31st, 2009
1:33 pm

Another pro life murder.

Redneck Convert

May 31st, 2009
1:38 pm

Well, sounds like this Dr. realized the Error of His Ways and up and shot hisself out in public. I reckon they won’t let none of us rednecks on the jury if they arrest somebody, seeing as how it was in Kansas.

clyde

May 31st, 2009
1:42 pm

I guess pro life people shoot anyone that disagrees with them.Odd bunch.”I’m pro life”–Bang!!!

BDAtlanta

May 31st, 2009
1:46 pm

That’s mighty pro-life of them.

BDAtlanta

May 31st, 2009
1:47 pm

The harrowing truth remains unchanged from what it was before Cheney emerged from his bunker to set Washington atwitter. The Bush administration did not make us safer either before or after 9/11. Obama is not making us less safe. If there’s another terrorist attack, it will be because the mess the Bush administration ignored in Pakistan and Afghanistan spun beyond anyone’s control well before Americans could throw the bums out.

Frank Rich in today’s NYtimes.com
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/05/31/opinion/31rich.html?_r=1

@@

May 31st, 2009
1:47 pm

Tiller has botched many a late-term abortion, jay…..some resulting in death (Christin Gilbert).

Not sayin’ they were involved but DANG!!!

at least give Tiller the “credit” HE’s due.

A modest proposal

May 31st, 2009
1:47 pm

1. Find out what church the shooter attended, and have a horde of armed pro-choice activists attend each Sunday to monitor the political content of the service.
2. Use every power in the Patriot Act to harass anti-abortion radicals. Maybe some of them get aquitted, but I bet we could make sure a lot of them lose their houses raising the money to legally defend themselves.
3. Prosecute every anti-abortion group that hasn’t been 100% clear in their opposition to violence with being an accomplice, using the RICO statutes. If we can’t convict them, maybe we can also bankrupt them.
4. Speak with every anti-abortion person you know. Either they renounce this immediately, or you shun them for the rest of their lives.

gotalife

May 31st, 2009
1:56 pm

Let’s see… choose between a fully-formed baby that’s about to be born… or some ugly old guy who kills for money… yeah, I would say, I don’t give a s*** he got killed.

AmVet

May 31st, 2009
2:13 pm

gotalife, that you are obviously a repugnant piece of sh.. doesn’t matter at all.

It is interesting though, that like many of your Reich-wing brethren, who must be thrilled with this crime, you are so gutless you won’t even use a name you’ll stick by.

Big brave man you are.

Maybe an uncle? A white male 50-60, balding in middle, gray hair, white shirt, dark pants, 6′1″ 220, Powder blue 93 Ford Taurus, K-State vanity plate, tag “225 BAB”.

getalife

May 31st, 2009
2:13 pm

I am getalife and do not approve of gotalife’s message.

Ew.

RW-(the original)

May 31st, 2009
2:15 pm

A case of domestic terrorism?

I believe the term is supposed to be domestic man caused disaster, but it sounds more like a targeted assassination to me than terrorism.

getalife

May 31st, 2009
2:27 pm

Well, it bolsters Janet’s argument on RW extremists.

josef nix

May 31st, 2009
2:29 pm

Just hold on a minute–the lunatic fringe from both sides once again have drawn their all-or-nothing lines in the dirt. I don’t see an awful lot of “pro-life” people out there taking in and raising kids “saved” from abortions whose mamas can’t, and I don’t see an awful lot of “pro-choice” folks handing out birth control and preaching responsibility.

There are plenty of legitimate reasons for aborting a pregnancy. There are plenty of reasons for not. I’m a male and will ultimately never be faced with the decision. Best we leave this, ultimately, to the woman, her G-d, and the medical provider and the state, political haymakers and ideologues should stay out of it.

I’m no Caribou Barbie fan, but I respect the hell out of her and hers for practicing what they preach.

Michael H. Smith

May 31st, 2009
2:42 pm

Murder is murder, the unjust abrogation of life cannot be shielded from justice and should never be condoned. To some the prerogative of one man’s freedom fighter being to the other man a terrorist may seem justice enough served, though absent a trial, conviction and sentence of death given to a living individual before their execution, it is a case of murder in my humble Pro-Life opinion.

On that note of empathy, perhaps every pro-abortion person should shun and renounce taking life from the unborn that never live to get their day in court?

jt

May 31st, 2009
2:47 pm

The police-state that we live in THRIVES on these incidents.

Our differences only make the state stronger.

josef nix

May 31st, 2009
3:07 pm

jt..a voice of reason!

Michael H. Smith, while I may disagree with you, I respect the fact that you use your name.

ty webb

May 31st, 2009
3:07 pm

Domestic terrorism? No, sounds like murder to me.

Kamchak

May 31st, 2009
3:09 pm

…and I don’t see an awful lot of ‘pro-choice’ folk handing out birth control and preaching responsibility.”

Where exactly are “pro-choice folk” supposed do do these two things? School? Not in a red state–abstinence only is the only “choice” afforded to educators. Let’s see—where else do kids congregate? The mall? Yeah–a consortium of retailers is gonna risk the ire of parents. The movie theater? Ditto about irate parents. I know—let’s invite pro-choicers to the First Baptist Church of (fill in the blank) and let them distribute condoms there.

I Rule You :-) / You Whine :-(

May 31st, 2009
3:22 pm

Well, he won’t be killing any more babies.

“We are shocked at this morning’s disturbing news that Mr. Tiller was gunned down,” said Troy Newman, Operation Rescue’s president. “Operation Rescue has worked for years through peaceful, legal means, and through the proper channels to see him brought to justice. We denounce vigilantism and the cowardly act that took place this morning.”

Ditto.

Billy

May 31st, 2009
3:29 pm

Amen, Kamchak. We try and try to get comprehensive sex ed to kids. We try and try to make contraception more readily available to those who might want it. But, no, can’t be sullying the innocent kids’ minds with knowledge of sex!

It’s the right that impedes that sort of progress. Unfortunately, most of the pro-lifers are jackasses who support abstinence-only education and don’t want anyone giving kids any actual facts about sex. They evidently only care about the fetus, since they vote for people whose only concern for the child is getting it into the world and not for actually providing for its health once it’s here. You want to outlaw abortion? Try reducing the feeling many pregnant women have that they won’t be able to care for a child. Provide some support for women who make a mistake.

DB, Gwinnettian

May 31st, 2009
3:30 pm

Yes.

(This has been another edition of Simple Answers to Simple Questions.)

PS: And so were the Knoxville Unitarian Universalist murders.

PPS: Thanks, @@, for confirming that you’re ok with moral relativism. I always knew Andy was.

I Rule You :-) / You Whine :-(

May 31st, 2009
3:34 pm

Question- What if the killer turns out to be the mother of a child who died while Tiller was butchering her baby?

Since you libs seem to have such a hard time dealing with simple, undeniable facts…….

DB, Gwinnettian

May 31st, 2009
3:40 pm

In case anyone’s forgotten, here’s the right-wing-radio inspired manifesto that accompanied the Knoxville UU terrorist.

I imagine this Wichita terrorist draws from similar sources.

Oh, and Andy–you know where you can shove your hypotheticals.

DB, Gwinnettian

May 31st, 2009
3:54 pm

DB, Gwinnettian

May 31st, 2009
3:57 pm

From Pandagon, which is a source of sanity at times like this–

Dr. Tiller was a brave man and a real hero. He was already shot once in 1993, but despite the ongoing threat of violence, he continued to work diligently to provide abortion services to women who are often in the worst possible situation, facing down the termination of a pregnancy that was being eagerly planned for, until things went terribly wrong. If a woman has a later term therapeutic abortion—be it because it was a wanted pregnancy, she has serious mental health issues, or she is a child victim of rape—it’s rarely easy on her mentally or physically. Dr. Tiller’s clinic was renowned for the thoughtful patient support to help women get through what is a very difficult time—counseling, support groups, religious services for the lost baby if you desire.

He didn’t have to do this. He didn’t have to put his life and his family’s life on the line every day to tend to women going through a little-understood trauma. He didn’t have to go through a sea of protesters who hate women so much they actually think that women are lying about their problems so they “get” to have later term abortions. He didn’t have to suffer through relentless legal abuse at the hands of fundamentalist misogynists who obtain political power by exploiting voter ignorance about abortion. He didn’t have to make himself the target for this murder to help women, but for whatever reason, he rose to this challenge, and that makes him a real hero.

Condolences to George Tiller’s family.

And that’s about all I can think to say at the moment. Later, all.

I rule Andy

May 31st, 2009
4:09 pm

Andy,
Well then she needs to die. Dead, like what her theoretical baby was after SHE went into the Dr’s clinic voluntarily, dead like Dr. Tiller was after she shot him because he gave her the abortion she asked for…

Any more stupid questions? Oh wait, they’re all stupid questions coming from you…

ewwwwwwwwwwwwwwww

HavingMySay

May 31st, 2009
4:09 pm

I Rule You :-) / You Whine :-(

May 31st, 2009
3:34 pm
Question- What if the killer turns out to be the mother of a child who died while Tiller was butchering her baby?

Since you libs seem to have such a hard time dealing with simple, undeniable facts…….

KEEP DREAMING…..THIS WAS THE WORK OF A PRO-LIFE NUT. NOT ONLY THAT, BUT AT CHURCH OF ALL PLACES.

I SAY – HAND OVER THE KILLER TO THE PRO-LIFE SUPPORTERS and LET’s SEE WHAT THEY DO WITH THE GUILTY PARTY.

I’m willing to bet they give him a gold medal and provide financial support for his legal obligations. That’s what those types of church going, christian like and children of god do when it comes to murder.

I Rule You :-) / You Whine :-(

May 31st, 2009
4:14 pm

Aahhh, yes, the libs would very much like to kill the killer of the baby killer.

The piano wire posse rides hard!

eewwww

Mrs. Godzilla

May 31st, 2009
4:18 pm

So no the folks who cry out against “baby killers” and proudly “adult killers”.

Disgusting.

Support secular government.

I rule Andy

May 31st, 2009
4:22 pm

It’s the law, especially in Kansas. Some Libs own guns and believe in the death penalty. This was obviously premeditated, it’s a death penalty case. I’ll flip the switch, have a peanut butter sandwich and some warm milk and sleep like a babe in momma’s arms…

HaveMySay,
The Pro-Life nuts will have the killer if they actually catch him. There’s a pretty good chance he’ll be harbored and sheltered by some nutbag wingbutternut, maybe he’ll be a good conservative and flee to France like the last nutbag wingbutternut Dr killer.

Imagine that, wingbutternuts fleeing to france, and wingbutternuts having sex with mules, what a funny bunch you are….

ewwww and ewwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww

I rule Andy

May 31st, 2009
4:28 pm

Hey wingbutternuts,
If you don’t like abortion, then work to change the laws. You’re too stupid to realize it, but you just blew it bigtime last November, not only did you get your a-ss-es handed to you, but you all handed the libtards a super majority.

The funniest part of it all is that all any of you can do about it is troll Jay Bookman’s blog and shake your fist at the world. Rather than admit you blew it by trying to slip the hillbilly from wasilly past the American public, you come here day after day and hour after hour and scream your hateful little insults and cut-n-paste your conservative RSS newfeeds and pat yourselves on the back for sticking it to the man…

Hilarious….

ewwwwwwww

Michael H. Smith

May 31st, 2009
4:31 pm

Ah why not, I like rocking the boat at times. For the record my position on abortion is pre- Roe v Wade, which means abortion is only acceptable under the conditions of rape, incest or threat to the life of the mother. In fact, something that will likely floor the liberals whom I’m frequently accused of abusing, I’d rather see adoption made easier for homosexuals than to have Roe v Wade stand and watch the destruction of innocent human life. In the best of worlds if we as people would act responsible there would be little need of abortions. Unfortunately, nature never gave human passions an eraser, instead nature gave humans a mind to avoid unintended consequences.

The government only becomes stronger when we are irresponsible as humans and citizens of this country.

I Obsess About Andy, Eewww

May 31st, 2009
4:33 pm

Just saying……..

AmVet

May 31st, 2009
4:34 pm

Crimes like this merely confirm what many of us already know – the far Reich-wingers are not remotely interested in justice. Or the rule of law. At least those laws they don’t feel they need to obey.

This church murdering didn’t take that long after the last one, did it? And I as I predicted after the one in Tennessee, there will be more.

Some tacitly advocate for maniacal murderers such as this man. Others, even more craven, hide behind excerpts, but fool no one.

To them, this is an exercise in twisted semantics and hypotheticals. And where they perhaps secretly rejoice at the results inflicted by this gutless coward.

Our system of laws provides for LEGAL abortions and the protection of those professionals who perform them. Yet the worst of these scumbags and christo-fascists cavalierly called THEM the murderers.

And if they had their way, the United States of America would again be a place where abortions were illegal, unsafe and sometimes fatal.

Just the way they liked it…

mike

May 31st, 2009
4:47 pm

Using the actions of this one nut case to smear all pro-lifers or conservatives is silly. That is like claiming that the actions of eco-terrorists are representative of all environmentalists.

josef nix

May 31st, 2009
4:47 pm

Kamchak and Billy–if you spent half as much time figuring out how to as you do kvetching about it, you’d see. I teach. I know what we’re up against there. Ever heard of biology? That’s where it starts and the earlier we introduce it the better. I teach fifth graders in an at risk enviroment. The science curriculum introduces sexual and asexual reproduction. My job is to teach them how reproduction takes place. There’s no need to mince words and two step. The Baptists? I’m not one myself, but I know plenty and you might be surprised how many of their youth ministers direct their flock to resources while still “preaching” abstinance as per the theological guidelines of their faith. Do they discuss this with the children’s parents? Of course they do. But you might also be surprised by how many of those parents are grateful to have a backup. Baptists practice birth control, too, you know. Where? Why not the mall? Put your money where your mouth is, set up a storefront…it has been done. The movie theatre? Put together a simple and straightforward announcement and get the theatre to show it. The pro-lifers should get the same equal access there. It’s called public service. Yeah, it takes time, effort, energy and resources and a will to fight, but it can be done. It’s not because the television networks aren’t willing (and required) it’s just that nobody’s doing it. There are a few here and there and that let’s you know it can be done. We just need more. And quit blaming the red states. If the blue states are better, then, pray tell why are the statistics so disturbingly uniform?

Back when my own little one was coming of age, i brought her in for “that talk.” ME: how do you get pregnant. SHE: it’s when sperm cell meets egg cell. ME: and how do you keep from getting pregnant? SHE: well, there’s condoms, the pill,,,” ME: I didn’t ask you your preferred method. I asked you how. SHE: You keep sperm cell and egg cell apart. ME: Right, now go on about your business. SHE: that’s it? ME: well, if we haven’t taught you the morality of it by now, it’s a little late to get started.

Her Mama took her to family planning where they have a good lecture just for girls her age. She’s married with two kids of her own now, both planned. I still don’t know what method she uses. I do know that she knew the biology and, she says, we provided her with a moral compass.

Mrs. Godzilla

May 31st, 2009
4:55 pm

We’ve had such a lovely weekend, and I come in and read this.

I have not read all of the comments above, I have outrage enough.

There are many people who strongly, loudly believe differently than one another. God bless them.

There are those who would bomb Olympic Park, blow up Federal Buildings,
bomb draft offices and women’s clinics, mail anthrax, torture or murder doctors in their house of worship. God damn them.

Pro Life and Pro Choice factions must both condemn this.

Kamchak

May 31st, 2009
5:10 pm

josef nix

I was baptized in a Baptist Church so please don’t presume to tell me about baptists. Planned parenthood has fought for years to be able to educate and distribute birth control only to be met with exactly the rhetoric Billy described I’m going out on a limb here and guessing “you ain’t from ’round here, are ya?” Else wise you wouldn’t have written such a naive statement about educating the youth about sex. You also presume that your experience with educating your “little one” equates with what others’ experience.

When school boards are willing to spend hundreds of thousands of dollars defending a decision to add disclaimer stickers to high school text books concerning evolution, I must question their priorities. I am the only one in my family that is not a teacher or administrator and I know the party line on this issue and sex-ed–”ignore it and it will go away.”

josef nix

May 31st, 2009
5:16 pm

Michael H. Smith–thanks for the vote of confidence on homosexual adoptions. Back when my Better Half’s nephews were left orphaned and they came to live with us, we faced that issue. Now you red-state-stupid-backwoods South bashers, hold on to your chapeaux! We first went looking for a place to put them in school, that was before the paperwork started. The reception we were given in, ready for this, Coosa, Georgia was so warm, so respectful it blew us out of the water. We were looking for a place, we told them, where the community reflected our home values. Next came getting the proper papers and their social security. The lady in the SS office says to us when we told her we had a court hearing, “look, I’ll expedite this. We’ll get you a check at least by the first of December since them boys need a Christmas given what they’ve been through. Who’s the judge? Oh, that’s John Henry, I’ll call him.” She did and the papers were signed with no hold up. Of course they knew we were gay, but “you boys are doing the right thing trying to give them boys a home.” But, Kamchak and Company, the real shock came when the local Baptist minister came to invite us to be “a part of our church family.” We diplomatically informed him that that probably wasn’t such a good idea since we were gay. The answer, and believe me we were shocked, was “oh, couple’s night is Thursday.”

Now, do I think that any of these people necessarilly “approved” of our sexual orientation? L-rd, no. But they did believe in “you leave them boys alone. They’re doing the right thing.”

Oh, yes, and the girl? Well she was with us since birth. Her Mama was 18, fresh in from West Virginia, got pregnant, the man ran off and she was alone in the big city, friendless and wondering what to do. She didn’t want to have an abortion and she really didn’t want to give away her baby. My Better and I promised to do what we could to help. We, like the mama, had our problems with abortion as a means of birth control. We put our own lives on hold and A. grew up with two homes where she knew she was loved and wanted.

That’s why I hold the pro-lifers who spend their time yapping in no higher regard than the pro-choicers.

HG3

May 31st, 2009
5:18 pm

Let’s see…Criminal Law as taught in 1L — from the first week of class, if I remember correctly — Murder is “the unlawful killing of another human being with malice aforethought”.

I’d say that’s about right on the mark for the shooter in this case. He is now the problem of the State of Kansas.

josef nix

May 31st, 2009
5:33 pm

Kamchak…not only am I from aroun’ cheer, my ancestry on all four sides goes back to the colonial period, most of them getting here as early as the mid 1600s. I’m pyoh Southern!

And I don’t presuppose to tell you about Baptists. I’m just saying that there’s plenty of good ones, too, and just because you found reason to be an apostate is no reason to go tarring them all with the same narrow minded tar brush.

No, I don’t equate my own child rearing techniques with others’ experience. All I’m saying is that we do what we can where we can and, in so doing, we will find that we can be examples for others.

josef nix

May 31st, 2009
5:47 pm

Kamchak–don’t get me started on those stickers! I’d probably make YOU sound “conservative!” How often do you go to school board meetings to make your voice heard? If nothing else, it’s an evening’s entertainment. Won’t ever forget the night my Better Half, luckily sitting on the other side of the room, informed a member, “Madame, you have delusions of adequacy.” Seems she had her own kids in private school…

A modest proposal

May 31st, 2009
5:52 pm

Michael H. Smith, you are a terrorist sympathizer. I would be happy to see you lose your life savings attempting to defend yourself from a politically motivated RICO prosecution.

josef nix

May 31st, 2009
5:56 pm

A modest proposal–yeah, maybe, but he stood up for me when Obama and company keep telling me to wait citing their religious reasons for such. Kinda sad, isn’t it, when Mr. Smith is more progressive than Shabbatai Zvi Obama….

Kamchak

May 31st, 2009
5:58 pm

I don’t have to “go tarring them all with the same narrow minded tar brush”, most of the ones I know willingly jumped in the bucket of their own accord. Yes, as individuals they can be warm and hospitable, however, some of the worst politicking can be seen in any Baptist Church when there is a building committee and/or a pulpit committee. I have personally seen four congregations split over these two issues. Never have I seen a mob overcome by group think. This was the reason of my apostasy. Congratulations that you have found warm and friendly evangelicals who have accepted you.

A modest proposal

May 31st, 2009
5:59 pm

I rule Andy – the death penalty is NOWHERE NEAR enough.

First, he should be prosecuted from terrorism, not merely murder. That’s a federal death sentence, not a state one, which is important given the political power of terrorist sympathizer Phill Klein, who set up the rifle, placed Tiller in its sights, and starting drawing the attention of church murderers (err, I mean pro-lifers…).

Second, the 8th amendment provides against cruel and unusual punishment, which means our modern techniques are far too humane for this person.

Finally, they will probably stop the prosecution with one guy, the “lone assassin,” while terrorist groups like Operation Church Killers (err… Operation Rescue) remain free to walk the streets.

All of this “oh I hate abortion but I renounce this killing” b.s. are transparent lies. I don’t trust a single pro-lifer when they say this unless I’ve known them to be consistent about it for some time. Pro-life leaders and politicians make a profession of attempting to provoke political assassinations like this, and should be held accountable as accomplices to terrorism.

A modest proposal

May 31st, 2009
6:02 pm

josef nix – I have no idea what you are talking about. You sound like an idiot.

If you want to really insult Obama, though, don’t mess with making him sound Islamic. Just call him a “pro-lifer”.

Kamchak

May 31st, 2009
6:03 pm

“Madame, you have delusions of adequacy.”

LOL!!! Has that been trademarked? If not I shall steal it.

I Obsess About Andy, Eewww

May 31st, 2009
6:06 pm

Treasuries have lost 5.1 percent so far this year including reinvested interest, according to Merrill Lynch & Co. index data. The dollar has also slumped, with the Federal Reserve’s trade-weighted Major Currency Dollar index sliding 3.2 percent so far this year.

For the fiscal year that ends Sept. 30, the deficit is projected to reach a record $1.75 trillion from last year’s $455 billion shortfall, according to the Congressional Budget Office.

And to think, they said McCain didn’t know anything about economics!

Ironic, isn’t it?

eewww

A modest proposal

May 31st, 2009
6:07 pm

HG3 bad idea.

1. It’s not simply murder – it is terrorism. It was done for the purpose of political intimidation and to advance the political end of ceasing abortion by exterminating abortion providers. It is organized activity. Terrorist sympathizers like Phill Kline identify the targets, and radical individuals are inculcated in religious settings, week after week, into a worldview that makes such killing seem justified. You cannot solve the problem by going after one person – you have to go after the terrorist-front anti-abortion churches as well.

2. If you leave it to Kansas, it’s a bad idea. That state has terrorist sympathizers in most positions of power. If he’s convicted at all, it will be out of their fear for what he means for their movement. Don’t trust them when they act appalled by this person – after all, they created him, systematically and intentionally, and they are currently in the process of cultivating others.

Obama is wrong when he asserts that pro-choice people should seek common ground with pro-lifers. They cannot be reasoned with.

I Obsess About Andy, Eewww

May 31st, 2009
6:11 pm

The sheriff’s office had suspected that the man would be coming back to his home on I-35, and the deputies waited for him.

As the car was spotted going northbound on the highway, the deputies followed and were quickly joined by three other sheriff’s patrol cars.

Lt. Mike Pfannenstiel of the Johnson County Sheriff’s office said officers pulled the car over just south of the main Gardner exit and got out with guns drawn. The man then got out of his car with his hands up.

“We took him down without incident,” Pfannenstiel said, adding that the man appeared to be driving the speed limit and made no attempt to elude the deputies.

He went home?

Whaaaackoooooo.

I rule Andy

May 31st, 2009
6:16 pm

Yeah, conservatives ain’t that bright are they???

The problem is that there are those in the state govt that will help this guy, Kansas is just THAT conservative.

ewwwwwwwwwwwwwwww

josef nix

May 31st, 2009
6:25 pm

Kamchak–nope, not patented and feel free to use it! BTW: believe me, I DO understand what you mean by the politicking…it’s why I don’t affiliate with any Jewish congregation–you think Baptists are bad! Given your reasoning, I’ll retract the term “apostate.” I like the term “backslid Baptist.” As for the warm reception, I’ve been blessed to have found such among all religious groups,

A modest proposal–what do you mean? I’m not making him sound Islamic, illiterate, Shabbatai Zvi was JEWISH…well at least for most of his life…he did convert to Islam for expediency’s sake to save his neck…he claimed he was the Messiah and for a while had quite the following…and secondly, I’m castigating Brother Barack for using his religious faith (his version of Christianity) to deny full civil rights to me and mine…

One Voice

May 31st, 2009
6:35 pm

It’s just one more piece of evidence that right wing Western authoritarian fundamentalists are essentially the same in theory and practice as extremist Islamic fundamentalists. All of this is predicated on their indoctrination in fictional concepts and the dogmatic belief that the world must conform to their mythology. And they see no hypocrisy in murdering to advance their “religious” views. Humanity only advances through education; religion is the remnant of primitive man and lies in opposition to civilized society.

jt

May 31st, 2009
6:45 pm

I obsess

Ironic, isn’t it?

Absolutely not. Consult your dictionary.

A modest proposal

May 31st, 2009
6:46 pm

josef nix – apologies for not knowing who you are talking about. You are still being pretty unclear about what you are speaking of.

What did Obama do to YOU, as an individual? My assumption is nothing….

booger

May 31st, 2009
6:59 pm

I think it was Bush and Cheney who did this dastardly deed.

josef nix

May 31st, 2009
7:02 pm

A modest proposal–He came out in support of Prop 8, invited the hate monger preacher Warren to “bless” his, we thought, secular administration, and is refusing to repeal don’t-ask-don’t-tell. As an individual? Forgive me if take it a bit personal.

Ray

May 31st, 2009
7:05 pm

Abortion of a viable fetus is now the only time that a person in this US can get away with murder, especially a late term baby. 92% of abortions in this country are performed for “societal reasons”, that is birth control. Where are the responsible people in this country? Do you not know how babies are made? Most of us don’t stand in the middle of a freeway at rush hour. You might get killed. But it seems that many ladies in this country are spreading their legs and getting laid once too often. If they are going to do the deed, use protection, keep it safe and don’t kill babies just because you were irresponsible enough to create them. Most of us are really pro-life, that is we don’t really want to kill an unborn. Show me one lady who has had an abortion, especially a late term procedure, that does not have a lot of remorse for the act. That decision stays with you for life. It never goes away. You think about it at the oddest times. Either keep your legs together or use protection. Someone’s life might depend on it.

josef nix

May 31st, 2009
7:08 pm

Of course it was Bush and Cheney, whatever the dastardly deed you refer to. They’re responsible for everything from the War of Jenkins’ Ear to the crabgrass in my yard…I can’t abide them, mind you, and am more than happy to see them go, but they’ve been scapegoated already, off to the wilderness carrying the sins of the people with them. Toot the Shofar for G-d’s sake and let’s get on with a fresh year to atone for,,,as you see, I’ve already started my list!

jt

May 31st, 2009
7:12 pm

Hey josef nix

tsa-la-gi hi wo-ni-ha
tsalagi hi woniha?

Dave R

May 31st, 2009
7:19 pm

Geez, Bookman. You go off and have a couple of clams, and then come back with such a stupid title and conclusion for this piece!

FYI, it is a murder. Nothing more – nothing less.

You can’t call a REAL war against terrorism a war against terrorism anymore, but you have no problem labeling a street crime as terrorism. What a hack!

josef nix

May 31st, 2009
7:20 pm

O-si-yo! Nope, my Better Half is Chata-Tsalagi. I wish I spoke either one, but I don’t. I do know some Ladino, though! Whenever I get too carried away with my Southern roots rot, he says, “well my family met the boat.” Where did you learn your tsa-la-gi?

jt

May 31st, 2009
7:30 pm

josef nix

May 31st, 2009
7:31 pm

Thanks for the link! Are you tsa-la-gi?

getalife

May 31st, 2009
7:42 pm

Now, they will keep gitmo open for the American taliban.

wingnuts,

geez.

Dave

May 31st, 2009
7:46 pm

I am pro-life. I am also a Christian (and a Baptist). What happened today was a tragedy. And yes, the killer should get the death penalty.

To me, abortion is murder, and so is killing those who perform them. The Lord said, “You shall know them by their fruits (actions).” Anybody with half a brain would know that the killer is either deranged, or a liar if they claim to be a Christian. Going to church doesn’t make you a Christian any more than going to Wendy’s makes you a Frosty.

And Mrs. Godzilla, secularism is the root of most of this crap (murders, abortions, euthanasia (both of which are just legalized murder), rapes, kidnappings, shall I go on?). Without a moral compass (which includes respect for human life), there are no morals, and I’d say we’re shooting down the home stretch at the speed of light on that count. So don’t say a word when you finally get your wish, and life is worse than it ever could be now.

jewcowboy

May 31st, 2009
7:47 pm

Dave R,

“FYI, it is a murder. Nothing more – nothing less.”

From U.S. Code Title 22, Ch.38, Para. 2656f(d):

“(2) the term “terrorism” means premeditated, politically motivated violence perpetrated against noncombatant targets by subnational groups or clandestine agents;”

If you consider the aim of this murder is politically motivated and seems most certainly premeditated, this would seem to fit under the U.S. Code for domestic terrorism.

getalife

May 31st, 2009
7:48 pm

Hey, lets act the cons, write our reps and say we are scared to death of the American taliban and demand they treat them as terrorists.

Ray

May 31st, 2009
7:51 pm

You can put it any way you want, give it any definition, try to wiggle out of the consequences and it is still something that could have been prevented if responsible people do the right thing. Quit giving excuses for this thing…. it only makes you and the other people who are irresponsible look stupid.

AmVet

May 31st, 2009
7:57 pm

Dave, occasionally someone posts something so amazingly stupid, so fantastically full of cr@p, it actually stands out.

Congratulations…

Dave R

May 31st, 2009
8:04 pm

Sorry, jewcowboy, you’re reaching on this one. As (is usual),Jay.

Murder is the taking of another person’s life. Plain and simple. Nothing else needs to be assigned to that. Same thing with those phony “hate crimes”. Assault is assault, regardless of the intention. Murder is murder, regardless of the intention. Neither get any worse trying to assign motives to them.

It is just the libs way of ramping up the victim card. Stop making anything more complicated than it is.

jewcowboy

May 31st, 2009
8:10 pm

josef nix,

“I’ve stated my opposition to this. I think [Prop 8 is] unnecessary. I believe marriage is between a man and a woman. I am not in favor of gay marriage. But when you start playing around with constitutions, just to prohibit somebody who cares about another person, it just seems to me that’s not what America’s about. Usually, our constitutions expand liberties, they don’t contract them.”

I’m not sure I would call that “in support of Prop 8.” I am not saying his opposition to gay marriage does not jibe with mine, but I do think 5 months into a Presidency, with 2 wars and an economic meltdown to deal with, might be a bit over-optimistic to deal with everything. I would rather he proceed carefully and get things right, rather than rush into things (a la Clinton) and set back things 15 years.

Dave R

May 31st, 2009
8:10 pm

And Dave, while I might not be wholeheartedly behind your comment at 7:46, you need to listen to Ambling Veterinarian.

That boy is the King of Cr@p, given that he writes it so consistently.

jewcowboy

May 31st, 2009
8:12 pm

Dave R,

“Nothing else needs to be assigned to that. Same thing with those phony “hate crimes”. Assault is assault, regardless of the intention. Murder is murder, regardless of the intention. Neither get any worse trying to assign motives to them.”

Then 9/11 was simply murder by your definition.

josef nix

May 31st, 2009
8:13 pm

I disagree with most of what Dave says, but AmVet, didn’t you notice he started by saying “to me?” With all due respect, it is comments like yours that give us liberals a bad name As the old folks say, “who died and made you G-d?”

Jewcowboy–point taken and well put.

jewcowboy

May 31st, 2009
8:16 pm

Ray,

“But it seems that many ladies in this country are spreading their legs and getting laid once too often.”

Last time I looked it took an egg and a sperm to create a fetus. Letting the boys off rather easy aren’t you? Perhaps if they kept the wang dang doodle in the barn, or stepped up to their responsibility if they don’t, then we could cut down on the abortion rate.

jewcowboy

May 31st, 2009
8:18 pm

Ray,

“Desmond Hatchett, a Tennessee man, has fathered 21 children by 11 different women at the age of 29, an American court has heard.”

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/northamerica/usa/5404674/Desmond-Hatchett-fathers-21-children-by-11-women-before-turning-30.html

But it is just the woman’s problem.

Dave R

May 31st, 2009
8:20 pm

jewcowboy.

You’ve finally figured it out. Yes. Mass murder. Anything else is inflammatory for the dumb masses to swallow whole.

getalife

May 31st, 2009
8:21 pm

Hey, lets invade Kansas and fight them over there so we don’t have to fight them here.

Take away their rights , torture them in gitmo, take pictures, play the fear card for 8 years and hang their leader.

Insane?

Nah, just conservatism.

Ray

May 31st, 2009
8:22 pm

Jewcowboy,

The female is the gate keeper in this situation. I personally don’t trust males as far as I can throw them. Someone has to have a level head (no pun intended) in this situation and it doesn’t seem to be males. If males carried the fetus to term, this would be a different ballgame.

jewcowboy

May 31st, 2009
8:25 pm

josef nix,

That said, Obama’s religious beliefs prevent him from supporting gay marriage, but not supporting abortion? Seems more like political calculation to get elected, rather than true views to me.

jewcowboy

May 31st, 2009
8:25 pm

Ray,

“Someone has to have a level head (no pun intended) in this situation and it doesn’t seem to be males”

Seems like an easy way to let the boys off the hook.

jewcowboy

May 31st, 2009
8:31 pm

Dave R,

“Yes. Mass murder. Anything else is inflammatory for the dumb masses to swallow whole.”

Then your line reasoning says genocide is just murder on large scale, correct?

DB, Gwinnettian

May 31st, 2009
8:31 pm

More stuff the vile right wing pro-terrorists don’t want to hear:

I know a woman who was diagnosed with Stage 4 non-Hodgkins lymphoma around the 5th month of her pregnancy – a planned, very much wanted pregnancy. Her doctors wanted her to start chemo immediately. They didn’t think she’d survive if she waited to start treatment until after she gave birth. There was a good chance she wouldn’t survive to give birth. Chemotherapy would kill the fetus. After agonizing over this decision, she and her husband decided to terminate the pregnancy so she could start chemo immediately. They had a young daughter already. They wanted her to have a mother. Because of the law now against “partial birth abortions”, the doctors couldn’t even deliver a fetus for them to hold and grieve. Somehow, our government decided it was more humane to have the doctors dismember the fetus in utero, at greater risk to the mother and her fertility. She and her husband were devastated but she started chemotherapy and, the last time I heard from her, was alive and healthy and cherishing her daughter. She and her husband were looking into adoption since pregnancy is now considered too high risk for her.

THIS is the type of patient Dr. Tiller treated. Where will women in this situation go in the future?

Dusty

May 31st, 2009
8:32 pm

I have never heard of a Christian church that advocates murder.

I have heard of obsessions, mental illness, and criminal activity as “reasons” for murder.

If you have heard of some strange sect that is called “Christian” and suggests murder for those with whom they disagree, then remember the words of Christ: “Beware of false prophets.”

For those of you who do not attend church or haven’t been there in ten or twenty years, best not to tell us what message you THINK comes from the Christian church. It is love and forgiveness, not murder.

AmVet

May 31st, 2009
8:33 pm

josef, while some might appreciate your misguided “defense”, re-read the following:

“And Mrs. Godzilla, secularism is the root of most of this crap (murders, abortions, euthanasia (both of which are just legalized murder), rapes, kidnappings, shall I go on?). Without a moral compass (which includes respect for human life), there are no morals, and I’d say we’re shooting down the home stretch at the speed of light on that count. So don’t say a word when you finally get your wish, and life is worse than it ever could be now.”

If you feel my calling that happyhorsesh1t what it really is, then I guess I am guilty of giving “liberals” a bad name.

Alas! Sunspot Dave striking out at me with his vicious mockery and vast wit!

Dumb as a bag of hammers…

jewcowboy

May 31st, 2009
8:33 pm

“Seems more like political calculation to get elected, rather than true views to me.”

Of course when religion and politics intersect, much hypocrisy is to be expected.

Michael H. Smith

May 31st, 2009
8:34 pm

Bring on that RICO investigation. It’s a little late for classifying me a terrorists, I’m sure Obumer and his DHS Czar have me on their list of domestic extremest already.

I suppose there are those who reason it is better to kill the innocent unborn than to ever allow them to live among homosexuals?

Uh… don’t like around you dear delusional soul but here’s a hint: You too, live with homosexuals everyday of your humanity hating life. Judge as you will, leave the execution of that judgement to the higher authority.

I confess to being an extremest on defending the unalienable right to life and the right of human beings to continue to exist and procreate as a species. That is why I’d would prefer homosexual adoptions as the better choice to allowing the unjust slaughter of defenseless innocent human beings, who can’t even cry while they are being murdered.

If accepting homocide in the interests of, as you may see it, “stopping homosexuality” is your bag, then I would have more to fear from the terrorists “making modest proposals”, than they would have to fear from me.

I will continue extremely sympathic to life and its purpose through peaceful non-violent means, even to the extremes of accepting conditions I do not prefer as a heterosexual in luie of murders I will never accept under any conditions.

Ray

May 31st, 2009
8:36 pm

Certainly don’t mean that. Everyone in this whole thing has equal responsibility for the creation of a fetus. The females just have to carry it and care for it when it is born. Expensive, committed, inconvenient…. something that the males don’t have. Many walk away with no support of the newborn, no remorse for what they have done….. ergo, the 70% out of wedlock birth rate in the US in the black community, 45% in latinos and 30% in white folks. The sperminators are out in force and we, the taxpayer, are having to pay for it in childcare, welfare supplements and government supported housing. How many single women with children live with their mother who essentially raises the child? Lots of them, and it is very sad about the irresponsibility taken for something that you have created and then let someone else be responsible for. It all boils down to taking responsibility for your actions…. something that 1.25M people in this country leave behind when they visit the abortion clinic. Think about it… that’s the population of a pretty good sized community…. every year.

jewcowboy

May 31st, 2009
8:37 pm

Dusty,

“If you have heard of some strange sect that is called “Christian” and suggests murder for those with whom they disagree,”

I sure those who participate in said sects may consider yours to be “non-Christian.” Such is the quandary of religion, who is right? And how do you prove it?

Dave R

May 31st, 2009
8:39 pm

No, jewcowboy. Genocide is state-sponsored murder, which is entirely different.

Nice try, but you keep trying to inflame that which needs nothing else to get the job done. Murder is murder. Nothing more, nothing less.

And while we’re on the subject of absolutes: Ambling Veterinarian is unarmed in an intelligent conversation. Nothing more, nothing less.

getalife

May 31st, 2009
8:40 pm

Michael H. Smith

Save the confession for the water boarding at gitmo. They will freeze your assets and keep you locked up without a lawyer indefinitly. They will blow up your house and your children.

We are like cons and scared to death of the American taliban.

Not so great when it happens to you huh?

josef nix

May 31st, 2009
8:42 pm

Jewcowboy–first post was in relation to your definition of terrorism! Not your one directed to me!

When we ALL go to the Civil Union License Bureau to pick up the same Civil Union License, I’m willing to quibble over the term marriage. Still, I am reminded of what my Granddaddy said when one of the local preachers had gotten a bit carried away naming names of those “living in sin.” “Brother Smith, marriages aren’t made at the court house. Civil unions.”

And if after 35 years of sharing bed, bath, bankbook, and raising three kids, don’t make a couple “married,” then I don’t know what does,

Given your attention to the meaning of words in your earlier post, I respectfully submit that you could not read that as anything but support.

I don’t have a problem with what you’re saying about priorities. I just want him to say “shut up and wait a while longer, I’ve got bigger fish to fry.” I just want to know where I stand in line. He promised transparency. This ain’t it.

jewcowboy

May 31st, 2009
8:44 pm

Ray,

“Expensive, committed, inconvenient…. something that the males don’t have. Many walk away with no support of the newborn, no remorse for what they have done….. ”

“and we, the taxpayer, are having to pay for it in childcare, welfare supplements and government supported housing.”

Then it would be up to the taxpayers to ensure they are responsible, and do not just lay the responsibility at the feet of women? And if society is not going to force them to their responsibilities, then isn’t it up to the woman to take responsibility and decide how she sees best to deal with the pregnancy?

AmVet

May 31st, 2009
8:46 pm

jewcowboy, you provided an irrefutable fact. A codified piece of American law. Exact and defined.

Sunspot provided an opinion. And views it as a fact.

Not one scintilla of data, evidence or information to back it up.

Why?

He has none…

jewcowboy

May 31st, 2009
8:53 pm

josef nix,

“I just want him to say “shut up and wait a while longer, I’ve got bigger fish to fry.” I just want to know where I stand in line. He promised transparency. This ain’t it.”

That would be nice, and I think that is what his staff is doing from statements about DADT. I personally think when the popularity tide shifts to supporting gay marriage, the support from the White House will follow.

It would be very nice for my decision to commit to mr. non-jewcowboy, not be a political football.

Dusty

May 31st, 2009
8:55 pm

Dear jewboy,

If I go to church and don’t murder someone, then I do follow one commandemnt that Jesus found helpful. Thou shalt not kill.

Therefore, according to my reasoning, any church or sect suggesting murder is not following the basis of Christian faith, that is love and salvation, not murder. Were you not taught the same rules as Jesus at the synagogue?