There’s no substitute for good sense

Reappointing Robert Gates as secretary of defense was probably the smartest personnel decision of Barack Obama’s political career, the mirror-image opposite of George Bush’s disastrous selection of Dick Cheney as his vice president.

In fact, if Gates had been SecDef instead of Rumsfeld from the beginning, I suspect the whole course of the Bush presidency would have been altered for the better. Alas, we shall never know.

From the Wall Street Journal:

American public support for the Afghan war will dissipate in less than a year unless the Obama administration achieves “a perceptible shift in momentum,” Defense Secretary Robert Gates said in an interview.

Mr. Gates said the momentum in Afghanistan is with the Taliban, who are inflicting heavy U.S. casualties and hold de facto control of swaths of the country.

The defense chief has been moving aggressively to salvage the war in Afghanistan, signing off on the deployments of 21,000 American military personnel and recently taking the unprecedented step of firing the four-star general who commanded all U.S. forces there. Mr. Gates, speaking in his cabin on an Air Force plane, said the administration is rapidly running out of time to turn around the war.

“People are willing to stay in the fight, I believe, if they think we’re making headway,” he said. “If they think we’re stalemated and having our young men and women get killed, then patience is going to run out pretty fast.”

Mr. Gates, a Bush administration holdover, also waded into the debate over the Guantanamo Bay prison and Bush-era antiterror tactics. He said critics of the Obama administration’s plans to close Guantanamo and move some prisoners to the U.S. were guilty of “fear-mongering.”

“If people begin to absorb the fact that we’ve got several dozen very dangerous terrorists in our jails right now…maybe a little greater perspective would be brought to the issue,” he said.

112 comments Add your comment

AmVet

May 29th, 2009
2:41 pm

Neo-cons fear monger???

I am shocked…

I Rule You :-)/ You Whine :-(

May 29th, 2009
2:42 pm

There are a lot of Bush foreign policies that Obozo clings to, like most of them in fact, so yeah bookman, take credit for them.

Pat yourself on the back.

We’ll blame the future appeasements and surrenders on Bushie, right?

S GA dem

May 29th, 2009
2:43 pm

How long before someone on this blog calls this guy ’stupid’ as well??

Joey

May 29th, 2009
2:44 pm

Agree on Gates. Migh argue that Gates was only smart appointment.
Wonder why you compared Bush-Cheney to Obama-Gates????

Do you think Gates labeled all critics as fear-mongers or just the Republican Critics?

Turd Fergusen

May 29th, 2009
2:51 pm

Ya bunch of PeaceMongers…*TEEWY* *POOT*

godless heathen

May 29th, 2009
2:52 pm

If public opinion turns more against the Afghan war, Obama has his scapegoat in place. All the libs will blame the Bush holdover, Gates, and Obama will get a pass.

S GA dem

May 29th, 2009
2:52 pm

I don’t think Gates cares whether it’s a D or R, he calls B.S. when he sees it. Why can’t the politicians see that that’s why we like this guy? That’s why Americans still like and respect McCain(w/ the exception of his Palin choice)

N.J,

May 29th, 2009
2:54 pm

Well so far those who supported the invasions of Iraq and Afghanistan and setting up Guantanamo have a bit of a credibility gap going for them.

So far one third of all the people who have been detained at Guantanamo were released because the only crime they committed was having been non Afghani Muslims who happened to be in Afghanistan. Others were released to their countries of origin to be tried there but in most cases, the only evidence against them was that they confessed to being members of their country’s branch of Al Qaeda under torture and eventually they were released because the only evidence that they were members of Al Qaeda was that they confessed to it under torture. Real important information that prevented another attack on the United States, Mr Vice president.

There are another 50-60 who have been cleared for release, but are being held because returning them to China would not be good for their health.

So far all we have is the word of those who have used torture to determine that the remaining people at Guantanamo are dangerous with little other evidence being presented. But those with most of those released and extradicted to their own countries, the only evidence against them was that they confessed under torture.

Turd Fergusen

May 29th, 2009
2:59 pm

Thats correct jay bookman so why dont ya get some.

???

May 29th, 2009
3:04 pm

And Obama’s choice of Biden was such a good one? Good for a laugh that’s about it.

ty webb

May 29th, 2009
3:08 pm

and Geitner, and Daschle?

N.J,

May 29th, 2009
3:10 pm

Yes, several dozen dangerous people in Guantanamo.

And about 11 months ago, an interview with one of the interrogators revealed that:

*************************************************************

On July 2, 2008, the International Herald Tribune revealed in an article that the U.S. military trainers who came to Guantánamo Bay in December 2002 had based an entire interrogation class on a chart copied directly from a 1957 Air Force study of Chinese Communist torture techniques used during the Korean War to obtain confessions, many of them false.

The chart showed the effects of “coercive management techniques” for possible use on prisoners, including “sleep deprivation,” “prolonged constraint,” and “exposure.” The 1957 article from which the chart was copied, written by Alfred D. Biderman, a sociologist then working for the Air Force, was entitled “Communist Attempts to Elicit False Confessions From Air Force Prisoners of War”. Other techniques used by the Chinese Communists that were listed on the chart include “Semi-Starvation,” “Exploitation of Wounds,” and “Filthy, Infested Surroundings,” along with their effects: “Makes Victim Dependent on Interrogator,” “Weakens Mental and Physical Ability to Resist,” and “Reduces Prisoner to ‘Animal Level’ Concerns.” The only change made to the chart used at Guantánamo was an altered title.

*********************************************************************

Basically the Bush Administration dusted off a 52 year old Cold war document on torture methods used by the Communist Chinese during the Cold War which determined that the methods got tons of false information, and started using these methods, claiming that they were very effective and they got good information from using them all the time.

ty webb

May 29th, 2009
3:11 pm

and Richardson?

AmVet

May 29th, 2009
3:14 pm

S GA dem at 2:52 pm,

Bravo! I concur.

I am still amazed and very glad that McCain won the nomination rather than one of the numerous George Bush wannabes and assorted flat-earth chickenhawks. It confirmed that this great nation can learn from it’s mistakes.

To this “lib” McCain was preferable to Obama. Had Nader not run, I would have voted for the “RINO”. Actually to my way of thinking all of the BushCo neo-cons are likely the real RINOs. And they can certainly take credit for imploding the Republican Party.

And choosing Sister Sarah, instead of a more reasoned and reasonable moderate, while not costing him the election, certainly ensured it was not going to be close.

Welcher now feigns he didn’t for months last year portray Obama as a surrender monkey and a cut and runner.

That he was wrong yet again, merely confirms the obvious. The lunatic fringe cannot accurately assess a candidates positions or capabilities if their very lives depended on it. They sees an R after the name, and that is good enough for them…

getalife

May 29th, 2009
3:14 pm

Gen. Petraeus: US violated Geneva Convention, the court of law could try terrorists: we made mistakes after 9/11: Close Gitmo.

Nuff said.

TUESDAY VANDY GIRL

May 29th, 2009
3:16 pm

OK..this is beginnning to feel like teaching calculus to the short bus crowd…

ONCE AGAIN…. waterboarding , desecration of korans in front of the jihadis, sleep deprevation, and calling the pedophile prophet mohammed a goat molestor, are NOT TORTURE.

That said, they can be fun :)

getalife

May 29th, 2009
3:21 pm

Tell it to the General and Gates valley girl.

N.J,

May 29th, 2009
3:21 pm

A couple of dozen extremely dangerous people.

As of January 17, 2009, there were still 245 people left in Guantanamo.
50-60 of them have been completely cleared for release, but since their country of origin is Communist China, and they are considered criminals in China because they want to free their region of the country from Communist rule they are all dressed up with no place to go.

In other cases, many of the people who were released and returned to their own countries because they were found to be not guilty of anything have VANISHED from the official DoD lists. That is to say, the DoD now asserts these people were never kept at Guantanamo, even though the home nations have the documentation of their release from Guantanamo or their extradition. Overall it took between a year and two years to release 250 people finally stating that “they posed no threat to the United States”. Most of these people have completely disappeared from the official lists of people who were originally claimed to be at Guantanamo. Between 2005 and today another 250 were released to their own coutries for various reasons.

In February 2006, the United Nations released a study about Guantanamo and basically stated the place should be shut down, because if after starting with 750 people and finally being down to several dozen extremely dangerous people, opening it was obviously a wrong move to begin with.

???

May 29th, 2009
3:21 pm

BTW, do all the bloggers at AJC cut and paste something from another newspaper and call it theirs or just Mr. Bookman?

I Rule You :-)/ You Whine :-(

May 29th, 2009
3:23 pm

AmTrac, meet General Motors. General Motors, AmTrac.

Say hello to my little friend the Post Office.

This line is for stamps, that line is for colostomies.

Take a number, mf.

S GA dem

May 29th, 2009
3:23 pm

Tuesday – I’m sure you’ve never taken calculus but have definitely ridden the short bus. You are the reason the Republican party is what it is. Ciao.

mike

May 29th, 2009
3:23 pm

Two things:

1) Jay should be capable of giving Bush credit for hiring Gates, but apparently his partisanship make him incapable of doing so. If Obama is “smart” for keeping Gates, what does that make Bush for hiring him in the first place?

2) If Lincoln had made Grant the head of the Union army after years of standing by McClellan, the Civil War would have ended years earlier. That’s how it goes in wars.

Doggone/GA

May 29th, 2009
3:25 pm

“BTW, do all the bloggers at AJC cut and paste something from another newspaper and call it theirs or just Mr. Bookman?”

Get a clue. This is an OPINION page…it’s only sense to quote what you are expressing your opinion about. Who cares if it comes from another papar, besides you and your ilk?

mike

May 29th, 2009
3:26 pm

getalife –

“Tell it to the General and Gates valley girl.”

Well, gee I thought that you said that all politicians were liars. Why do you always trust the ones who share your policy views? You call others “gullible” for believing politicians when they don’t share your views.

Paul

May 29th, 2009
3:28 pm

Jay

I’d still like to hear what the goal is.

And how the strategy is different in a way other than scale.

For this the Obama Administration get credit?

Sigh….

AmVet

UltraLibs fear monger???

I am shocked…

Doggone/GA

May 29th, 2009
3:29 pm

“waterboarding…NOT TORTURE” – unfortunately for you, we tried, convicted and put people in jail for doing EXACTLY this “non-torture” after WW2. You need to brush up on your history. Torture then, torture now. How hard can it be to grasp that?

Paul

May 29th, 2009
3:30 pm

mike 3:26

I can’t speak for him, but I do believe Gen Petraeus would take mild irritation at being called a ‘politician’ (even tho 4-stars are politically astute).

DB, Gwinnettian

May 29th, 2009
3:31 pm

Mike, felt like having at those issues you cited downstairs in this thread because they’re not completely unrelated to Jay’s topic.

Just to kick this stuff around a bit. and because while I give you a hard time when you’re being silly, those were reasonable observtions. my .02 USD follows your observation…

> illegal spying – Actually the spying was ruled legal and Obama is keeping the programs in place
That’s shorthand, but ok.

> Debt – Bush ran up a lot fo debt, but nothing like Obama has
There’s every reason to believe the debt would’ve continued to skyrocket under a Republican president, given the allergic reaction to rolling back their precious income tax cuts for the upper quintile income earners.

> Deficits – see above
Yes please do.

> Oil – An issue that goes back to the 70s
CAFE goals have been set to where they should’ve been ten, fifteen years ago. Never would’ve happened under McCain.

> Education – Bush’s educational record is pretty good and NCLB was a bi-partisan success
NCLB was a reasonable start, the dem knock against it is that the feds didn’t properly fund the mandates, but that’s not really the whole story. Fact is, those high-stakes tests as the sole metric for pass/fail is fairly unworkable and it needs to be overhauled big-time.

> Crumbling infrastrcuture – Obama’s stimulus has very little infrastructure spending
Very little is infinitely better than none, which is what the no-new-spending GOP would’ve gotten us.

> Jobs – Unemployment rate under Bush was very low until the end.
The rate was low, but it masked a terrible job growth overall during the first six years. Basically it should’ve been lower, but (just my opinion) GOP calibrations are always attuned toward empowering management rather than labor in order to suppress wages. It’s just what they do.

> Afghanistan – Obama is proud to say that he supported it from the beginning
Ok. Vast potential for cluster-foxtrot there.

> Pakistan – Obama continuing Bush’s policies exactly
If you want to believe this, fine; I think when you replace State dept. heads, the dynamic changes even if the stated policy doesn’t, necessarily.

> Iran – Been a problem since the 70s and no change in sight
witholding judgment here. The opportunities for normalized relations should be seized and I hope Obama manages it.

> N Korea – Is this going better under Obama?
Jeez, man, it’s what, four months? You expected him to make the regime less crazy?

Paul

May 29th, 2009
3:32 pm

Tuesday Vandy Girl/DoggoneGA

Forget waterboarding. What about the other Enhanced Interrogation Techniques that are grouped as torture? You know, the ones Spkr Pelosi was briefed on. Told about. Heard from someone.

Wyld Byll Hyltnyr

May 29th, 2009
3:32 pm

President Bush and Vice President Cheney, both true heroes in America’s grandest tradition, fixed the broken Clinton intelligence system that failed on 09/11 and kept this nation safe. I don’t know anyone that would bet pink-slips that President Ob-amateur and Vice President Bidet can do the same.

G-d bless President Bush and Vice President Cheney.

???

May 29th, 2009
3:33 pm

That’s funny doggone, I looked at the other “opinion” pages and they don’t cut and paste just about 100% of their article…so go away with your pack mentality

AmVet

May 29th, 2009
3:34 pm

getalife,

Valley girl? LOL. But it’s damned near an insult to those west coast airheads…

Paul, UltraLibs fear monger? Am I missing something here?

???, couldn’t say.

But at least he and everyone else here, who matters, are not afraid of using a name they will stick by.

As your posts seem as vacuous as your moniker, why not explain to us why Biden is such a BAD choice. Just for a laugh.

Looks like Curly has got his knickers all twisted up…

DB, Gwinnettian

May 29th, 2009
3:35 pm

Tues, for the record, when you celebrate the rape of minors in American custody as you did yesterday, it’s kind of hard to take much of anything you say afterward without revulsion.

Paul

May 29th, 2009
3:36 pm

Enter your comments here

Brad Steel

May 29th, 2009
3:36 pm

VANDY GENIUS,
Maybe it’s not torture to wingnuts like you, but it’s stupid and ineffective. Remember what happened last time the US was foolish enough to use a muslim holy land as a temporary military base? Of course you don’t.

eagle scout

May 29th, 2009
3:36 pm

A sad day in American history brought on by the war mongers Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld….”US Army base shuts down after rise in suicides” Yes ..That’s right Ft Campbell the home of the 101st Airborne is on “stand-down” which on today entered its third day due to the highest rate of suicides in the army, with at least 11 confirmed or suspected suicides.

Such a proud day in American History….

getalife

May 29th, 2009
3:38 pm

Damn mike is moron.

Those two are not politicians stupid.

Geez.

mike

May 29th, 2009
3:40 pm

DB –

A few quick responses –

“There’s every reason to believe the debt would’ve continued to skyrocket under a Republican president, given the allergic reaction to rolling back their precious income tax cuts for the upper quintile income earners.”

I don’t think that they would have reached the heights of Obama’s deficits and I also think that low taxes generally lead to stronger growth. That being said, it is all conjecture because Obama did win.

“CAFE goals have been set to where they should’ve been ten, fifteen years ago. Never would’ve happened under McCain.”

Fair enough.

“NCLB was a reasonable start, the dem knock against it is that the feds didn’t properly fund the mandates, but that’s not really the whole story. ”

NCLB was a bi-partisan effort headed by Kennedy, so the Dems don’t have a leg to stand on.

Infrastructure- “Very little is infinitely better than none, which is what the no-new-spending GOP would’ve gotten us.”

I disagree. If the vast majority of the infrastructure is crumbling, “very little” is irrelevant.

Jobs – “The rate was low, but it masked a terrible job growth overall during the first six years. Basically it should’ve been lower, but (just my opinion) GOP calibrations are always attuned toward empowering management rather than labor in order to suppress wages. It’s just what they do.”

Can you explain how any of Bush’s policies empowered management to suppress wages?

“> Pakistan – Obama continuing Bush’s policies exactly
If you want to believe this, fine; I think when you replace State dept. heads, the dynamic changes even if the stated policy doesn’t, necessarily.”

Pretty lame comeback. Policy is all that matters and if you think that the Taliban care that Clinton is there now, you haven’t been following event closely.

“> Iran – Been a problem since the 70s and no change in sight
witholding judgment here. The opportunities for normalized relations should be seized and I hope Obama manages it.”

Hope is all we have, as the Iranians have spurned his advances.

” N Korea – Is this going better under Obama?
Jeez, man, it’s what, four months? You expected him to make the regime less crazy?”"

Of course not. That’s my point. The fact that it is Bush or Obama doesn’t make the regime less crazy, hence the claim that it is Bush’s fault is silly.

Normal

May 29th, 2009
3:40 pm

I said back in ‘03 that President Bush should go to Afganistan, bring
back Bin Ladens head on a pike and plant it in NYC at Ground Zero, then
and ONLY then talk to us about Iraq, but he started a two front war.
History has proven many times armies don’t win two front wars. We would
not be worrying about Afganistan if he had been smart. We wouldn’t have needed Gitmo and our soldiers wouldn’t be dieing now. But it is
what it is. We don’t have the military strength any more to fight in
both places. We have to give up one and accept the consequences. Leave
Iraq and finally finish the job in Afganistan. It’s the only way we
will win anything.
———–
Godless Heathen is right, The public will turn against Aganistan if
something isn’t done soon, just like it did for Viet Nam.
—————
Tuesday Vandy Girl: Oh, I get it, it’s sarcasm, isn’t it?
————
Whine, Calling the President names is not nice, agree with him or not
and lessens some otherwise valid points you make. Just saying…

mike

May 29th, 2009
3:41 pm

getalife –

Let me ask you again:

Do you call people names to their faces? Or do you only do it when anonymous?

Tell us again about who are cowards.

Joey

May 29th, 2009
3:43 pm

[To this "lib" McCain was preferable to Obama. Had Nader not run, I would have voted for the "Rino".]

One can only conclude from this statement that you voted for Nader. Having voted for Nader, your later reference to the lunatic fringe must include you in that fringe.

mike

May 29th, 2009
3:43 pm

Normal –

“We wouldn’t have needed Gitmo and our soldiers wouldn’t be dieing now.”

How would the lack of an Iraq War made Gitmo un-needed? What is the correlation between the two?

getalife

May 29th, 2009
3:43 pm

I am Sicilian mike.

Of course.

mike

May 29th, 2009
3:46 pm

getalife –

Oh so you are so unable to control your emotions that you walk around calling people cowards and morons? How do they respond when you act so childishly?

getalife

May 29th, 2009
3:48 pm

Quit asking stupid questions and I will leave you alone mike.

Deal?

josef nix

May 29th, 2009
3:49 pm

Posted earlier on NCLB…It’s a failure, no ifs, ands or buts about it. I can tell that those in support haven’t been in a classroom trying to comply with its “mandates.” We just came through CRCT and, yes, my kids did well enough and they’re an “at risk” lot, Y’all need to get up and go take a look at what’s being tested and how it’s being presented. Oy!

Oh, and the short bus? Is that the one Obama keeps throwing his supporters under?

DB, Gwinnettian

May 29th, 2009
3:50 pm

Mike, just time for a couple of points:

Can you explain how any of Bush’s policies empowered management to suppress wages?

Couple of things come to mind: On a grand scale you’ve got ongoing outsourcing and trade policies (granted, inherited from Clinton); pushing for immigration reform that seemed mostly about institutionalizing the practice of importing cheap labor with a nudge and a wink. On a smaller scale, appointing judges who do stuff like, oh, denying Lily Ledbetter her back wages, and then voting against legislation designed to make atrocities like that happen again. (that’s more a psychological thing but it’s typical of GOP strategies—keep management happy and workers frightened.)

I disagree. If the vast majority of the infrastructure is crumbling, “very little” is irrelevant.

Not if it’s a bridge you’re driving over, a rail line you take to work.

Later, all.

mike

May 29th, 2009
3:51 pm

getalife –

No. I am trying to get a handle on what kind of “man” you are.

Personally, I think you are full of it. You don’t act so uncivlliy in public, otherwise you would getting your face kicked in on a regular basis and wouldn’t be able to type. The truth is that you are just a really angry person who vents his rage on blogs anonymously and cowardly.

getalife

May 29th, 2009
3:53 pm

You don’t want to know mike.

Grow up son and grow a spine if you want to blog.

It’s not for children, it’s for adults.

georgian by birth floridian because I'm lucky

May 29th, 2009
3:55 pm

Does anyone know what the benchmarks hoped to be achieved through this war?

Is there a time table on a withdrawl plan yet for the Afgan war?

I am shocked there has not been that discussion as it seemed to be a topic people cared about. Guess they were just playing around.

mike

May 29th, 2009
3:57 pm

DB –

“On a grand scale you’ve got ongoing outsourcing and trade policies (granted, inherited from Clinton); ”

OK, so it isn’t a Bush policy, then is it?

“pushing for immigration reform that seemed mostly about institutionalizing the practice of importing cheap labor with a nudge and a wink.”

This is the view supported by most Democrats and Obama. Are they suppressing wages too?

“appointing judges who do stuff like, oh, denying Lily Ledbetter her back wages, and then voting against legislation designed to make atrocities like that happen again”

The Lily Ledbetter case was decided by a Supreme Court that had only two Bush appointees. There were not enough conservative justices for it to have passed with the support of some of the liberal justices.

“Not if it’s a bridge you’re driving over, a rail line you take to work.”

Feeble retort. The whole initial point of this conversation was that Obama was going to bring meaningful change. In this area, he has brought window dressing.

mike

May 29th, 2009
3:59 pm

getalife –

Actually, I would love to know. I promise you, you wouldn’t say a thing.

If you think your behavior is “adult”, then you are even more pathetic than your rhetoric indicates.

Midori

May 29th, 2009
3:59 pm

Does ACORN know about this??????

Republican Official to Change Plea to ‘Guilty’ in Kentucky Election-Tampering Conspiracy

A Republican election official, one of six allegedly bi-partisan Clay County, KY Board of Elections officials arrested last March and charged with a long-term conspiracy to rig elections, buy votes, and manipulate vote-selections on electronic voting machines without the knowledge of voters, has asked to change his plea from not guilty to guilty.

Paul E. Bishop is set to plead guilty to one count of racketeering in the scheme that spanned elections in the rural county from 2002 through 2007.

According to the original indictment, Bishop was a Republican election judge at precincts in 2002 and 2004, and hosted meetings at his house where candidates pooled money to be used for buying votes. The latest report also notes that Bishop, and some of the other conspirators, even employed Rush Limbaugh’s illicit drug of choice, OxyContin, as part of their scheme…

FULL STORY: http://www.bradblog.com/?p=7188

AmVet

May 29th, 2009
4:00 pm

Joey, touché!

Perhaps you’re correct.

But my guess is that you know next to nothing about the man.

Not his contributions to America nor his positions.

Read about the National Initiative and participatory democracy.

Read about his revenue-neutral tax-neutral carbon proposal instead of the Waxman-Markey cap-and-trade bill.

There is much much more.

Read for awhile and then let’s discuss the pros and cons.

So, if one must be a lunatic fringer why not one that is a vanguard for positive change vs. enabling the failing status quo?

mike

May 29th, 2009
4:01 pm

Hey all, in case you were wondering, it takes “a spine” to call people names when cowering behind the veil of anonymity. Just ask the brave getalife. He knows all about being such a tough guy.

getalife

May 29th, 2009
4:02 pm

Isn’t that cute, mike is acting tough.

GFY (good for you mike)

Geez.

getalife

May 29th, 2009
4:04 pm

Now, take your tough act and say, yeah, bring on those big, bad thugs to supermax.

Right tough guy?

Paul

May 29th, 2009
4:05 pm

Georgian by birth 3:55

[[I am shocked there has not been that discussion as it seemed to be a topic people cared about. Guess they were just playing around.]]

I think getting into that would put them in the same position Bush supporters were in regarding Iraq – a position for which they were pummeled unmercifully. So, you can see why they don’t want to go there.

Dennis

May 29th, 2009
4:07 pm

One or 6 or 600 Republicans being guilty of voter fraud, does not make ACORN innocent. In fact this plea deal calls out for an even greater effort in finding other voter fraud including ACORN’s. But that is not going to happen as long as the power pendulum is this far left of center.

DB, Gwinnettian

May 29th, 2009
4:08 pm

I was going to just post a quick typo-fix, but I see mike’s already replied.

With Ledbetter–You’re focusing on the judicial appointments, but that’s ok, because they matter too. More importantly though is the promise of a presidential veto if the bill to stop such stupidity were to pass… which it wasn’t able to do with a GOP senatorial filibuster which prevented it.

It wasn’t a huge thing but one of a bunch of pieces. There’s also that ongoing resistance to raising the minimum wage, of course.

Really running now. Later!

Paul

May 29th, 2009
4:09 pm

Midori

[[Does ACORN know about this??????]]

Probably so, but they likely don’t have the time to spare from all the Federal charges pending against them…

Paul

May 29th, 2009
4:10 pm

Maybe if I break down the post that was rejected 5 times…

AmVet

I meant fearmongering ultralibs like Spkr Pelosi, who said prisoners couldn’t go to Alcatraz ’cause it’s a tourist attraction. Really. I believe even Sen Webb’s opposed.

Midori

May 29th, 2009
4:11 pm

oh Dennis — Puhleaze!!!

how the heck did you get to point C so fast?

what happened to A and B?

Did you cheat??

getalife

May 29th, 2009
4:12 pm

Paul,

What is the deal with you and Pelosi?

Are you trolling like the tough guy mike?

Paul

May 29th, 2009
4:15 pm

getalife

She’s like the fundamentalist evangelists or the family values Republicans caught with minors or other women or men – says one thing to the public, does another when she thinks no one will catch her.

mike

May 29th, 2009
4:18 pm

getalife –

Oh, I’m no tough guy. I don’t fit your description of being a man. I don’t call people names when cowering behind the veil of anonymity. Only a real man like you can attack people knowing they don’t have to face them. That’s the kind of “man” you are.

mike

May 29th, 2009
4:19 pm

“says one thing to the public, does another when she thinks no one will catch her.”

Oh you mean like getalife? Calling names on a blog while cowering in his mother’s basement?

Paul

May 29th, 2009
4:20 pm

getalife

sorry – if your Pelosi was directed at my 4:10, which was in response to an earlier posting from AmVet about cons and fearmongering and detainees – my response wasn’t a torture reference, which is what my 4:15 read like. As Speaker, she’s gone right along with the “don’t bring the Gitmo detainees here and don’t put them in MY disctrict” crowd.

I think that’s fearmongering.

Joey

May 29th, 2009
4:20 pm

AmVet:
I am in my 60s so I was alive, well and aware during Nader’s heyday. I chose that response because of your “fringe” paragraph and the “seeing a R” comment.

I do not believe that Conservatives or Republicans are Nader’s ememy. His enemies are much closer to him; The environmental community. They don’t like realistic or practical solutions.

getalife

May 29th, 2009
4:21 pm

Ouch Paul.

Are you saying she is a lying hypocrite?

I liked Jesse’s take that obama will not prosecute because the dems are involved.

He follows my number one rule in politics, he learned first hand in Vietnam.

Another proud Indpendent that bashes both corrupt parties.

Paul

May 29th, 2009
4:22 pm

mike 4:19

as you quoted from my post: getalife will engage you in a spirited discussion. I’d suggest addressing him as you’d like to be addressed.

williebkind

May 29th, 2009
4:27 pm

All you conervatives have a great weekend and all you liberals please standby your computers for the next DNC blog entries. Remember Obama the KOTUS!

Normal

May 29th, 2009
4:32 pm

Mikw, your 3:43 post: Because without Iraq, the war ion Afganistan would have been long over, Bin Laden dead, and our youn men and women home.

Paul

May 29th, 2009
4:32 pm

getalife

[[Are you saying she is a lying hypocrite?]]

No. I’m not sure but that she really has constructed for herself an alternate view of what happened that she now accepts. Maybe blocked some stuff out so she, like OJ, can say “I didn’t do it” and believe it. I just don’t know. But her shutdown of any questioning like at her weekly conference looked pretty desperate. She’s only four years difference in age than McCain and you remember all the speculation that lead to during the primaries.

I think Jesse has a good read on it. I just do not understand why Pelosi went so far down this road when she had so much exposure. There are no secrets. Sooner or later the bad stuff comes out. Unless what I wrote above is correct.

I kinda hope not. But it’s possible.

Pogo

May 29th, 2009
4:33 pm

Liberal love for Gates? I think not. Anything, and I mean anything associated with Bush is hated by Jay and his fellow yellow backed ducklings. This is another one of Jay’s weekly attempts to try to show how “open minded” he is by interjecting a “controversial” subject (”controversial” meaning anything that runs counter to his usual unwavering worship of anything progressive and liberal). There is nothing open about the workings of Jay’s and the liberals he so closely identifies with brains. In fact, they are on the extreme end of the spectrum when it comes to close mindedness. The irony is is that they have the audacity to charge conservatives as being narrow minded. Now that is funny.

AmVet

May 29th, 2009
4:34 pm

Paul, you know what I’ve had to say about Madam Speaker in the past – spineless. Voting to allow you know who to do you know what you know where. Her and Reid taking impeachment off the table. I understand her Dole connection is dirty as hell too. Entrenched and corrupt.

But that silly point and she by herself is no match for the mini-legion of bellicose Republican chickenhawks who wailed for war.

“His enemies are much closer to him; The environmental community.”

Joey, “the environmental community” is comprised of many organizations with many positions. That you stereotype ALL of them in one clean sweep is IMHO inaccurate.

“I do not believe that Conservatives or Republicans are Nader’s ememy”.

Though enemy is much too strong a word, I would submit to you, sir, you really don’t know much about him at all. Read what he has written and you’ll agree, that statement is simply ludicrous.

getalife

May 29th, 2009
4:39 pm

Paul,

Yeah, it will come out later. I think she knew, took impeachment off the table for political gain and now they are trying to move on and cover it up .

S GA dem

May 29th, 2009
4:41 pm

There goes Pogo – a walking, talking, advertisement for the Democratic Party -

getalife

May 29th, 2009
4:43 pm

Which leads me to the number one rule for politicians:

Get reelected. Period.

Paul

May 29th, 2009
4:51 pm

AmVet

I don’t know if it’s a silly point. Shows what they’re made of. Many voters think they have a real alternative between the two parties. This just illustrates that in some very fundamental ways there isn’t much of a choice.

I’ve a movie about Nader in my Netflix queue. I think I’ll move it up a notch.

getalife

Yeah, there’s a lot of interconnectedness.

Your 4:43 “Get reelected. Period.” – you broke the code, again.

Sometimes it’s seems so obvious… once you hear it….

Normal

May 29th, 2009
4:51 pm

Somebody, sometime is going to have to explain what is wrong with
being liberal or progressive. To me they represent open-mindedness,
willing to listen and learn, willing to point out faults and most
importantly, willing to do what it takes to correct those faults.
Willingness to help others and in the process, help themselves.
When you really look at it, Jesus Christ would be the poster boy
for liberal/progressives. All He wanted to do was preach peace,
heal the sick, feed the hungry, and help the needy. I don’t see
what is wrong with that, unless you are afraid it’s going to cost
you money. Someone please tell me, please.

Joey

May 29th, 2009
4:57 pm

AmVet:
Thanks for that. Prior to your sharing with me, I was convinced that the environmental community was one enormous entity.

I see clearly that I am not worthy of conversing with your superior intellect. Please forgive me for drawing your attention my pitiful self.

Oh! I should have written sir some where in there? Please add it at the correct location.

Goodness. One embarassing error after another. I should stop before I really misssoup …….

S GA dem

May 29th, 2009
5:01 pm

Normal, I’ve been saying the same thing for years. WWJD?? He would be a flaming liberal, and be crucified (figuratively) for it by Rush and his dittoheads.

Paul

May 29th, 2009
5:08 pm

Normal

If you’d like to try looking at it from a different perspective, using your Jesus analogy, conservatives would say Jesus was going back to what was, that the Pharisees had the fundamentals but built up a huge bureaucracy with a lot of rules and regulations that became an end in itself and lost sight of why it existed in the first place.

So Jesus was conservative in the sense that he adhered to the original intent, that he got back to the fundamental precepts God established.

So cons would say they share the same goals, just take a different path to get there.

AmVet

May 29th, 2009
5:16 pm

Joey, Nader excoriated the Bush administration. And called him the most serially impeachable president in US history. He lambasted countless Republicans when he felt they screwed up. But he did likewise to the countless Democrats.

Prove me wrong or don’t.

No need for intellectually dishonest surrenders. But either way, it’s no big deal.

BTW, raised in the midwest, I learned from my parents that addressing people as sir or ma’am is a sign of respect and is quite OK.

Sorry you took offense. None was intended.

Paul

May 29th, 2009
5:18 pm

Normal

Look at the latest situation in California’s prisons. Federal judge appointed an overseer for medical care. Fine, conservatives would say. The state has an obligation to keep them healthy. But (they would call this a liberal outcome, I think) the overseer paid himself nearly a quarter million a year. Same for his assistants – a half dozen or so. The doctors he brought in – salaries a third higher than what they’d get in San Francisco Bay area. Same with nurses. And his latest medical endeavor? Bring in aromatherapy (feel better through scented candles) and build a yoga room.

So the good intentions go overboard, Calif spends 14 grand a year for prisoner medicine (about three times what the nonprison population spends on themselves) and a fine bureaucracy’s been built, richly rewarding the members.

So less assistance is available to nonprisoner poor and unfortunates who could really use some help.

So that’s how a conservative might see it when liberals set out to help someone.

Dusty

May 29th, 2009
5:27 pm

Paul@4:32

Are you suggesting that Alzheimers is a possibility for Pelosi? Has she ever been considered an intellectual top notch thinker? Sounds like the same old dabble and dodge politics following glaring deficiences.

It isn’t that Republicans don’t have “theirs” also, Democrats have so much more experience in forgetting the magnificient faux pas of their partisans. Right now, they are pulling the curtain on the Pelosi parade of prevarications. Bad show. Hush hush…

Normal

May 29th, 2009
5:28 pm

Paul,
I would agree with you except todays conservatives, it seems to me,
only want to help themseves. Cut taxes, gut programs, etc. I see
only lip service to Jesus from them, except for the far right “Christians” who would rather start a Theocratic America much
like the Pharisees you mentioned. The way I see it, Jesus tried hard
to be apolitical and stay on message, as anyone would, he pointed
out faults of the system and it got him crucified. No,
I have to agree with S GA Dem, Jesus would be at least a progressive.
Just saying…

md

May 29th, 2009
5:28 pm

“I don’t see what is wrong with that, unless you are afraid it’s going to cost
you money”

Unfortunately, money is needed to do all those things you have listed, for the most part.

Its not the ones that are motivated to do all those things, its the ones that are motivated to let someone else do them instead.

Why stay in a free public school and better oneself when the alternative is to drop out and let someone else do the work and then take what they make.

Believe it or not, there is a large segment of society that votes for the biggest bag of cookies being offered, and most of them vote on the left. Why bake them yourself if you can get Robin Hood to raid the neighbors kitchen and bring them to you to boot.

Joey

May 29th, 2009
5:29 pm

AmVet:
I was raise in the South and I still address people as sir, But I do not write or say; “I submit to you, sir, you don’t really know much about’ anything, then write not offense was intended.

You would never phrase a response like that to your Mama or Daddy.

Normal

May 29th, 2009
5:34 pm

md,
Money is just paper and metal and pretty soon, given the way the world
economy is going, there won’t be real money any more, just electronic “monet”. Star Trak credits. That will end up being the
only real way to solve this financial mess we are in. Wait for it, it’s coming. The people who use wealth to keep score, will only have
electreonic bytes on a card. Can’t throw that up in the air and shout,
“I won!”. Any way, when a rich man dies, the best he can hope for is to
be the richest corpse in the graveyard.

md

May 29th, 2009
5:38 pm

I don’t think Jesus would approve of behemouth people sitting on the couch eating bags of potato chips watching tv all day while waiting for the next bag of chips to be delivered.

One must want to help themselves first before expecting help.

Paul

May 29th, 2009
5:41 pm

Dusty

I really didn’t want to go there. Just listing all the possibilities as to how something might be remembered differently and with the age issue used so stridently against McCain, well, it seemed it should at least be mentioned.

Normal

Fair point. But doesn’t your post imply Republicans comprise a hefty majority of those who’d benefit from tax cuts (may want to check the financial status of our Senators) or that the programs gutted wouldn’t somehow affect them, also?

It seem like a pendulum situation – Dems seem to lean way over to the side of gov’t and bureaucracy, Reps seem to go waaay the opposite way. The moderate Dems and Reps, such as they are, seem to get left on the sidelines.

But sometimes the preconceptions get muddied. I noted a while back that both Reps and Dems, if asked, will say they’re for a clean environment. (Add to that Dems regularly accuse Reps of being in bed with big business and giving them all kinds of tax breaks and favorable treatment). Yet in the climate change/carbon emissions arena, the Democratic default position seems to be some variation of cap and trade, which has two likely outcomes:

1 – a huge amount of money flowing in to the government, which will be available for nonenvironmental programs

2 – a ‘gimme’ for corporate interests and the ultrarich from auctioning and trading credits and manipulating the system so those who manufacture the required technology profit handsomely.

So in this case, it seems to me, Democrats emulate some of the worst characteristics they ascribe to Republicans.

But I haven’t heard Republicans come up with anything better.

The whole point of the Jesus analogy was just to illustrate that how one sees a ‘liberal’ or ‘conservative’ has very much to do with the going-in definitions for those two groups. I’m of the opinion (at the moment) that they share many of the same objectives (and faults) – they just differ in how to achieve them.

md

May 29th, 2009
5:42 pm

Normal, its not about the money, its about earning enough of it to take care of oneself.

Dropping out of a free education system is not the way to better oneself in order to achieve that goal.

There is a difference between a “hand up” and a “hand out”.

And there are those that can’t help themselves and those that won’t help themselves and the ones that can’t would die to switch places and be able to do what they will not.

AmVet

May 29th, 2009
5:44 pm

Joey,

I did not say “…you don’t really know much about’ anything,…”

I did say “…you really don’t know much about him (Ralph Nader) at all.”

It is specific to this one matter.

That is one helluva difference.

md

May 29th, 2009
5:49 pm

Normal,

Simple question – Should a college student that chooses (key word) to study 24/7 and do no partying and earns straight A’s have to share those A’s with a college student that chooses to party 24/7 and do no studying and earn’s D’s and F’s??

If your answer is No, please tell me the difference in life when we choose everything we do.

A doctor, lawyer, etc chooses to study a longgggggg time to better themselves.

A high school drop out chooses to not better themselves.

Explain to me why one should be “required” to help the other. Did they both not have the opportunity to make the same choice?

Normal

May 29th, 2009
5:50 pm

Paul, md thanks for the debate, you have given me something to
think about and I hope I have done the same for you. But I must
go now, the wife is calling…Good night.

Normal

May 29th, 2009
5:52 pm

md I caught your post just as I was about to leave. Yes, the answer is no, but the “F” student is not needy, just lazy (assuming he can afford
college). Good night.

md

May 29th, 2009
5:53 pm

And for reference, I am not a doctor, lawyer, etc as I chose not to study that long. But I do not begrudge them for MY choices.

Dusty

May 29th, 2009
6:04 pm

The people who post profusely about Christians surely do sound like people who never go to church. Whether they go or not, they sound terribly confused.

Christians have faith in the love and salvation given us by Christ. Most Christians find great outreach in their church. My denomination alone has a top ranking world wide relief agency which includes emergency supplies, water and crop education, (and thousands of homemade quilts). There are outreach programs such as participation in the Heifer Program. There are local clothing programs and layette sewing groups for babies of indigent mothers, housing for homeless women, a book program for prisoners, blood drives, and special programs for the elderly and children. Those are just a few things coming out of churches.

So I invite you who know so little to once again attend a church and take part. They will love to have you and will put you right to work in the most helpful things of which you never dreamed. Come and find some good news.