Cheney vs. someone who knows what he’s talking about

100 comments Add your comment

Mrs. Godzilla

May 28th, 2009
11:28 am

I think God will forgive Dick Cheney…..being imperfect, I’m having a much tougher time.

Brian

May 28th, 2009
11:32 am

Blah, Blah, Blah….Most people have already made up their minds one way or another on this and moved on. Isn’t it about time for you to also?

AmVet

May 28th, 2009
11:42 am

The man is a chickenhawk and an inveterate liar. And some would rightfully argue, a grade A fool.

He, as much as any other single person, represents everything that is so terribly wrong with this current Republican Party and their fraud “conservatism”.

What he and his cohorts did to this greatest of all nations is a travesty. And the man belongs in an 8X12 cell.

But the silver lining is that these unindicted criminals have essentially guaranteed us that the bungling, utterly corrupted neo-cons will never again have any real say in this country…

getalife

May 28th, 2009
11:45 am

“US General: Still-Secret Abuse Photos Show Rape Of Detainees”

dick should give obama his fortune for covering this up.

King DumbA$$ the First

May 28th, 2009
11:51 am

Well, I guess y’all done all heard me and ole “Willie Jeff” is going to have ourselves a “debate” up there in Canada. You see, Willie and I got the same problem: that UBS feller can’t come into the U.S. with them suitcases full of money. Be we shore can! Being as how we don’t have to go through customs and all. Being a former president has its benefits!

I just can’t wait to get back–them wads of money gets Laura so excited that she . . . well, you get the picture. Whatever you do don’t count the number of suitcases we left with, OK? And y’all thought I was a dumba$$!!!!

RetLTC

May 28th, 2009
11:56 am

Ask Scooter Libby what a standup guy Cheney is. Dick Cheney is garbage.

BDAtlanta

May 28th, 2009
12:03 pm

Carter kinda ruined it for all administrations after Bush 1 when he started speaking out in opposition to subsequent administrations.

CJ Max

May 28th, 2009
12:04 pm

Jay- even the most biased of people can see this was a person with an agenda. “sun up,sun down I took an oath to uphold the constitution” I guess then He himself was engaged in torture. And is himself a hypocrit. I bet if I asked detainee’s if they thought torture was wrong,and if it could be used as recruitment tool,the answer would be duh-yeah. And with the help of the U.S. media,a successfull ad campaign was founded.

RW-(the original)

May 28th, 2009
12:11 pm

Does the AJC get paid to sell “Matthew Alexander’s” books? His experience in Iraq with rag tag groups of insurgents hardly disproves Cheney’s conclusions on enhanced interrogation being successful and necessary with hardened al Qaeda leadership at Gitmo.

Soothsayer

May 28th, 2009
12:12 pm

booger

May 28th, 2009
12:15 pm

Bottom line,

Four CIA directors say enhanced interrogation provided valuable information which prevented future attacks. This includes Clinton’s guy. Jay can go with this man plus his other unnamed sources, I’ll go with the people running the show.

Ray

May 28th, 2009
12:22 pm

booger,

The same CIA who was ‘protecting’ us when the planes hit? The same CIA who said WMD in Iraq?

If they’re ‘running the show’ then it’s a tragic comedy.

booger

May 28th, 2009
12:24 pm

Soothsayer,

Where we are now is in a recession. And no, despite the media’s hype, it is not the worst since the depression. We got here because of an overheated economy. Recessions are the way the free market takes care of an overheated economy. Happens every few years.

What an overheated economy did not need was a stimulus. Even Obama’s own OBM says recession would end just as quickly without the stimulus. What the stimulus might do , however, is cause inflation as the recession ends.

booger

May 28th, 2009
12:27 pm

Ray,

Yes, the same CIA who has protected you against further attacks for the last eight years.

Doggone/GA

May 28th, 2009
12:29 pm

“Yes, the same CIA who has protected you against further attacks for the last eight years”

And the same one who protected us after the FIRST WTC attack.

booger

May 28th, 2009
12:40 pm

Doggone,

Yes, the very same.

Soothsayer

May 28th, 2009
12:41 pm

The U.S. economy is in ruins. Yet the “free trade” forces are in hyper-mode, pouncing on any type of pro-American policy that smacks of “fair trade.” They are ready to blame the “pessimistic populists” for a massive fall-off of international trade similar to what (arguably) occurred after the Smoot-Hawley tariff bill of 1930. Yet a massive decline in international trade is occurring without there having been implemented any substantive protectionist measures in the United States for decades. The United States government has allowed — indeed encouraged — the loss of its most important “strategic industries,” one after another.

booger: our economy collapsed because it was fueled by borrowing against “ghost” value in appreciated real estate. Once that “value” disappeared, the economy collapsed.

The fact remains that the economic model the United States has adopted in the past 10 – 15 years is unsustainable. Not only for us but for those countries that depend on us for their exports. The unfortunate fact is that the Chinese have been too successful. To the point that they have put their biggest customer–the U.S.–out of business.

We buy their goods, send them our money. The only way it can continue is for us to incur ever increasing debt–mainly from those countries we trade with.

Whether you want to accept it our not America will not become prosperous again until we address our trade imbalances. Read this article before you reply.

Copyleft

May 28th, 2009
12:48 pm

Booger: “I’ll go with the people running the show.”

Good! I’ll tell the Obama administration they can count on your support.

TUESDAY VANDY GIRL

May 28th, 2009
12:55 pm

waterboarding simply is not torture. That being said, I do approve of torture when necessary. I thank Dick Cheney for doing what was necessary, and I am glad it was, as the liberals say, IN MY NAME. If only one muslim Jihadi goes to their grave cursing my name, it will all have been worth it.

Soothsayer

May 28th, 2009
12:59 pm

Outsourcing, of course, is nothing new. In the early 19th century, Britain imported cotton from the United States, then spun and weaved the fabric in England, and finally exported the textiles abroad, primarily to India, then its colony. This kept about 80 percent of the monetary equivalent of these exports in the U.K. (adding to the national wealth). After a while, it occurred to the mill owners that they could grow the cotton in India and later ship the textile machines there, too, in order to save money on wages and shipping expenses. This sounded great, except now the only monetary value being repatriated to England was 15 to 20 percent of the total value of the textiles in the form of profit.

Now 80 percent of the created wealth remained in India, a great loss to the British economy resulting in unemployment and social unrest. While other exports took up some of the slack, Britain’s economy started to decline after reaching an apex around 1848.

We here in the United States face similar problems. By outsourcing, we not only lose skilled labor but monetary wealth. Sure, our companies may gain temporary increases in profits, which are repatriated (if the U.S. firms are owned by domestic shareholders). Again, this is only 10 to 20 percent of the total product value. And, yes, this will create additional jobs. However, these additional jobs will be almost all in the service sector, unless completely new industries spring up, an unlikely and long-term prospect.

Friends, I don’t give a rat’s rear end about Cheney. There is simply no other issue facing this country (other than energy independence) that even comes close. Get your heads out of the sand!

Wyld Byll Hyltnyr

May 28th, 2009
1:00 pm

Vice President Cheney stands tall in the pantheon of true American heroes. Never has one sacrificed so much financially and put his life, needlessly and selflessly, to serve our grate nation.

My college fraternity had a pledge initiation rite that was identical to waterboarding except that beer was used and the pledge was nekkid with cold beer thrown on him. In fact, we had a running contest to see who could last the longest in our beer drown in which brothers willingly participated time and again.

Waterboarding does no permanent damage and the THREE detainees who were waterboarded were told that they would not be killed or permanently damage.

This is very simple, the liberals hold a blind hatred toward President Bush because he follows Jesus and acknowledges the existence of good and evil. The liberals know that if Jesus and President Bush are correct (and they are) then the liberals will spend an eternity of teeth gnashing in the farrest reaches of hell and to assuage their fear the Liberals grasp at any straw to lashout at President Bush, who stands tall among our greatest presidents.

As to the guy in the video, I can find 10,000 idiots on the street that will tell you that McDonalds is causing the decline of American civilization – this knucklehead is the same caliber idiot.

Ray

May 28th, 2009
1:03 pm

booger,

Yes, the CIA has protected us over the last eight years. There have also been no stampedes from boogiemen, and aliens from Mars have been thwarted as well.

Don’t be so easy. Do some reading while you’re sittin in the middle of your swampland. Or is it a pasture? Don’t sheep live on a pasute?

Redneck Convert

May 28th, 2009
1:05 pm

Well, I see they sunk this 600 ft. ship off of the FL coast to make a reef for the fish. I wish they would of called me first. We could of swapped my old bass boat. They would of had their reef and I would be the biggest, baddest boat captain on Lake Lanier, in charge of the Ford F-450 of the waterways. A bunch of us would be partying big-time.

Anyhow, it figures Bookman would have to throw off on Dick Cheney. All he’s got against him is he’s a bad shot on a hunting trip. Maybe he needs to get a eye check and some glasses. Cheney that is, not Bookman. Bookman only sees one way irregardless. Librul. Anyhow, when you can’t tell a person’s face from a quail, there’s something wrong with your sight. It don’t mean he didn’t keep us safe, like Sister Dusty says he did. One thing’s for sure, the people in Gitmo ain’t been doing anymore Terrist things against us and they’ve been singing like canaries. I never was a big fan of water, except for boating and drinking, but if it will make the Terrists spill their guts I’m all for it. Maybe we could do some of this waterboarding on prisoners before we stick the needle to them. It always struck me the Death Penalty is too easy now.

Have a good p.m. everybody.

booger

May 28th, 2009
1:06 pm

Soothsayer,

You have a lot to learn about economics. Our economy is not in “ruins” nor has it collapsed. We are in a recession! It will end as it always has.

RealityKing

May 28th, 2009
1:15 pm

Oh…, the CIA. For a minute there I thought you were referring to Obama as someone who knows what they’re talking about.

@@

May 28th, 2009
1:16 pm

Why would they join jihadists whose torture of their own people included atrocities that we can’t even begin to imagine?

The former interrogator may be in the market for the enemy’s bs but I’m not buyin’.

RealityKing

May 28th, 2009
1:16 pm

Maybe we should ask Pelosi first…

DB, Gwinnettian

May 28th, 2009
1:16 pm

Cuz

May 28th, 2009
1:18 pm

I wonder if the video’s of Peaceful Muslims beheading soldiers and journalists inspired anyone in America to join up to fight these jihadists.

Whenever the terrorists sign the Geneva accords I will agree to treat them by those accords. We are not fighting a group that plays by the rules. Waterboarding, to tame. How about cattle prods in a shower. Now that would be torture. What we have done is less than fraternity hazing. Maybe we could make a frat just for the Gitmo detainees. Delta Upsilon Mu. We can call them by their initials. DUM.

Release the memos Cheney wants to show how many people were saved by waterboarding. If he is wrong, then these memos will prove it. If he is right, then we can move on to more important things like which city should we send the detainees from Gitmo. San Francisco has my vote. Dress them up like the Village People and let them go. Oh wait a minute, that might really be torture.

Midori

May 28th, 2009
1:20 pm

Waterboarding does no permanent damage and the THREE detainees who were waterboarded were told that they would not be killed or permanently damage.

maybe you need to hear what someone who WAS ACTUALLY WATERBOARDED has to say about it, huh?? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jFuxrKVnev8

Additionally, were these people told they were not going to be raped?

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/northamerica/usa/5395830/Abu-Ghraib-abuse-photos-show-rape.html

booger

May 28th, 2009
1:20 pm

Ray,

Sorry, I don’t know what a pasute is.

Soothsayer

May 28th, 2009
1:25 pm

Booger: I wonder what kind of work you do? I believe you might sing a different song if your job is outsourced.

The New Wave: Outsourcing of
White Collar Jobs
The software sector was the first service
sector to transfer significant activity
to foreign locations, leading to
the creation of a critical mass of expertise
and resources in concentrated
locales, such as the city of Bangalore
in India. The rapid dissemination of
the Internet, the transnational networks
set up by immigrants in the US,
and liberalization of emerging market
economies created the conditions for a
major burst of outsourcing in the
1990s, in hitherto primarily domestic
segments of non-manufacturing sectors,
such as telecommunications, retail
trade, and finance (including
banking and insurance). While the
“push” factors for business process
outsourcing (BPO) or business services
outsourcing (BSO) are similar to
those for manufacturing and are
largely cost-driven, the “pull” factors
and attributes of countries and
economies providing outsourced services
are somewhat different. In addition
to cost advantages similar to
those offered by the manufacturing
centers of East Asia, the ongoing outsourcing
of business services jobs to
India, Malaysia, Philippines and
South Africa among others is also due
to the widespread acceptance of English
as a medium of education, business
and communication in these
countries; a common accounting and
legal system (at least in some of the
countries), the latter based on the
common law structure of UK and US;
general institutional compatibility and
adaptability; the time-differential determined
by geographical location
leading to a 24/7 capability and overnight
turnaround time; simpler logistics
than in manufacturing, and a
steady and copious supply of technically
savvy graduates.

TUESDAY VANDY GIRL

May 28th, 2009
1:26 pm

I can only hope the alleged photos of alleged rape involve a broom handle or something, otherwise this “don’t ask don’t tell” is not working…(I assume the detainees were not female)

If it does involve a broom handle, thats fine by me..whatever works

I Rule You :-)/ You Whine :-(

May 28th, 2009
1:26 pm

I hate to break the news to y’all but it would have been real tough to get actionable intelligence from Zarqawi, considering that he was blown all to hell.

Where did you find this clown?

Mr. Snarky

May 28th, 2009
1:32 pm

Jay, that’s not fair. Cheney’s not supposed to know what he’s talking about, his job was to stir up our fears so that we would give the Bush administration a blank check to pursue their goals via any means necessary. Whether their goals coincided with our principles or long term interests was irrelevant. Now he’s just using the same BS of he saved a billion lives to cover up his dastardly deeds.

ty webb

May 28th, 2009
1:33 pm

Cuz,
I prefer Alpha Sigma Sigma.

ty webb

May 28th, 2009
1:35 pm

Midori,
Well what do you know, Mancow lived to tell about it. I know it’s early, but I doubt there will be any lasting damage. Great point.

Shawny

May 28th, 2009
1:36 pm

Bush and Cheney are yesterday’s news. Let’s talk about the unnecessary govt spending spree spun in the facade of stimulating the economy, all the while setting us up for financial ruin in the forms of runaway inflation and deficits.

Midori

May 28th, 2009
1:36 pm

Vandy,

I pretty much suspected that about you.

thanks for the verification.

Midori

May 28th, 2009
1:37 pm

are you a doctor, Ty?

or do you play one on tv?

ty webb

May 28th, 2009
1:38 pm

Despite so many people trying to link the two, the now infamous Abu Ghraib photos and the enhanced interrogation(or torture for some)debate are two different issues.

getalife

May 28th, 2009
1:39 pm

“Children raped at Abu Ghraib: U.S. General confirms Seymour Hersh’s Abu Ghraib accusations ”

Told you conservatism is a mental disorder.

The rational thought from right to wrong does not exist in their evil minds.

Soothsayer

May 28th, 2009
1:39 pm

Joey

May 28th, 2009
1:40 pm

I was going to comment, but Tuesday Vandy Girl (12:55) said it more clearly and completely than I could have. Thank you Vandy Girl.

Midori

May 28th, 2009
1:41 pm

Getalife,

I remember being called names and accused of slander on this blog when I brought up the child rapes.

getalife

May 28th, 2009
1:43 pm

Midori,

They can’t think right from wrong.

Pity them, they are mentally sick in the head.

Cuz

May 28th, 2009
1:45 pm

ty, what did you shoot on the links yesterday. Oh yeah I forgot, you don’t keep score. Alpha Sigma Sigma works for me. Maybe we should have a barbeque to welcome the new initiates. I will check with Hank Jr. and see if he can round up some rowdy friends. I am sure the new Sigma’s will love a pig in the ground and beer on ice. Maybe we can teach the Sig’s how to toss a football?

AmVet

May 28th, 2009
1:46 pm

Just a little afternoon fun at the expense of the only man on the planet who could make Spiro Agnew look godd.

And for those of you who still inanely believe that POS DickHead is not a major league screw up, this list is NOT for you. I would contend that living in a constant state of delusion is punishment enough.

The rest of us are just enjoying watching the spectacle…

“Except for the occasional heart attack, I never felt better.” –June 4, 2003

“I had other priorities in the sixties than military service.” –on his five draft deferments, April 5, 1989

“There are a lot of lessons we want to learn out of this process in terms of what works. I think we are in fact on our way to getting on top of the whole Katrina exercise.” –Sept. 10, 2005

“Conservation may be a sign of personal virtue but it is not a sufficient basis for a sound, comprehensive energy policy.” –April 30, 2001

“My belief is we will, in fact, be greeted as liberators.” –March 16, 2003

“We know he’s been absolutely devoted to trying to acquire nuclear weapons, and we believe he has, in fact, reconstituted nuclear weapons.” –March 16, 2003

“In Iraq, a ruthless dictator cultivated weapons of mass destruction and the means to deliver them. He gave support to terrorists, had an established relationship with al Qaeda, and his regime is no more.” –Nov. 7, 2003

“I think they’re in the last throes, if you will, of the insurgency.” — on the Iraq insurgency, June 20, 2005

“Oh, yeah. He is. Big time.” –agreeing with then-candidate George W. Bush, who was overheard at a campaign rally saying, “There’s Adam Clymer, major league a**hole from The New York Times,” Sept. 4, 2000

“Go f*ck yourself.” –to Sen. Patrick Leahy, during an angry exchange on the Senate floor about profiteering by Halliburton, June 25, 2004

“You know, in this business, you don’t have any control over what the press says and how they portray things. And that’s their prerogative. But I think anybody who looks at it objectively has trouble making the case that somehow this is a bad economy.”

And my favorite, “I don’t think anybody saw it coming,” from an interview with The Associated Press, explaining that Bush has no need to apologize for not foreseeing the economic crisis.

Just as there was no need to apologize for not “foreseeing” 9/11, I suppose…

Mr. Snarky

May 28th, 2009
1:46 pm

“Despite so many people trying to link the two, the now infamous Abu Ghraib photos and the enhanced interrogation(or torture for some)debate are two different issues.”

No they are not. Allowing torture and prisoner abuse was a result of Rummy and Cheney’s attitude of “those people are animals who should be treated like scum and have no human rights.” The attitude trickled down to the “bad apples” who were prosecuted.

The evidence of this attitude is what served as a recruiting tool and cost the lives of many of our soldiers. Rummy and Cheney have our soldiers’ blood on their hands. Not that they’re worried about it…

Cuz

May 28th, 2009
1:47 pm

Prosecute any child rapes. Pretty simple. I think the code of military justice will view that in a harsh light.

Mrs. Godzilla

May 28th, 2009
1:50 pm

I’m not saying that all right wingers are sadists, but all the sadists
I know are right wingers.

Thank God in heaven their numbers are declining.

Mr. Snarky

May 28th, 2009
1:50 pm

“If it does involve a broom handle, thats fine by me..whatever works”

Vandy…your views are further evidence of the evil in the world that Wyld Byll mentioned earlier. “The ends justifies the means”…”to make an omelet you’ve got to break some eggs”…mottos of fascists.

Cuz

May 28th, 2009
1:50 pm

Thank God we have a real genius as the VP now. Any word on when they will release the daily Biden gaffe?

Cuz

May 28th, 2009
1:53 pm

Mrs. G, do the right wing sadists you know dress up in leather? Do they like a cat-o-nine tails or a riding crop?

Midori

May 28th, 2009
1:56 pm

if I may, Mrs. G:

good question, Cuz. Let’s go right to the tape, shall we:

well Andy? which is it? cat-o-nine tails or a riding crop?

Joey

May 28th, 2009
1:57 pm

Sorry Mr. Cheney. You have lost standing now.
Fidel Castro, a man who really knows about torture, has come out against you.

I suppose Jay was unaware of Castro’s comments. Otherwise how could he not seize this opportunity to put the double-whammy on Cheney.

ty webb

May 28th, 2009
1:57 pm

Cuz,
You’re right, and I measure myself against other Golfers by height.

Mr. Snarky,
those “bad apples” weren’t interrogators. Keep trying. There haven’t been any photos released of interrogations. The “new” photos being debated about now are just more of the same involving the “bad apples”. Obama should be commended for changing his mind and not releasing them.

Wyld Byll Hyltnyr

May 28th, 2009
1:58 pm

DB, Gwinnettian 1:16 pm

That was funny. I did not know you had it in you. Yes, I would lyke to meet Tamye Bobyie; provided that she looks like a 22 year old Pam Anderson.

I Rule You :-)/ You Whine :-(

May 28th, 2009
2:01 pm

In 10 cities surveyed by the Office of National Drug Control Policy, at least half of all men arrested tested positive for some sort of illegal drug.

2007 2008

Atlanta 67.8% 60%

Chicago 86.5% 86.5%

Obozo’s whole freaking town is stoned.

Go figure.

Mrs. Godzilla

May 28th, 2009
2:03 pm

Midori

of course you may…..

Wyld Byll Hyltnyr

May 28th, 2009
2:03 pm

Midori 1:20 pm

I have been, in effect, waterboarded and once held the house record at 2:37.

There is a youtube video of a doug that can howl like songs; the video of the nutless wonder who was waterboard has the same impact.

Waterboarding is most unpleasant, but it does not permanent damage (and there is no credible dissent on this point)and was not lifethreatening for the THREE. If you are so charged upabout this, go after Ted Kennedy he intentionally water drowned one.

N.J,

May 28th, 2009
2:04 pm

Pretty big ratio. 1 to about 6.5 billion.

The idea that American soldiers are incapable of committing terrible crimes against children, women, civilians is another example of how isolate the America government has kept the American public since 1980.

After Watergate and the Vietnam War, government, largely Republicans and conservative owners of the media, realized that “ignorance is bliss” and the idea of a free press is no longer real in the U.S.

Compare the nightly NEWS during Vietnam and the nightly “Infotainment” during the Iraq War. I have to listen to foreign radio, from a large number of countries in order to be able actually find out what is really occuring.

Total percentage of Islamic terrorist who “Behead captives” to the 1.3 billion Muslims in the world is rather smaller than the ratio of American troops who have engaged in “collateral damage” recently.

At very largest, best and wildest guess, is that there are a total of 60,000 Islamic Fundamentalist terrorists in the world. Best guess of the U.S. intelligence services at the highest end of their range. The more likely figure is around 20,000. Even at the highest range, the percentage is something like 0.0005 percent the of the worlds Muslims are. Thats about what, 1/5000th of the worlds Muslim population at the very highest possiblity. Rather small when you compare that to the American ranges.

Given the estimated total number of civilians killed in Iraq or Afghanistan to the number of American troops in Iraq or Afghanistan the ratio is about at parity. One citizen killed for every one American troop in the regions. The DOCUMENTED deaths in Iraq alone, which Americans no longer get to see in the news (if they every actually even got regular counts) as of May 26th, 2009 is between 92,126 and 100,580.
On Tuesday, May 26th 12 civilians were killed. 3 in Baghdad by mortar fire, I in Kirkuk by gunmen, 7 found in mass graves in Anbar, One woman killed in clashes between U.S. and insurgents.

At the start of the war, Americans got to hear about all the people who were in Saddam prisons. 99.9 percent of them were Islamic Fundamentalists Terrorists who belonged to the Iraqi version of Hezbollah. Many were jailed and arrested because their organization was responsible for blowing up the American and French embassies in Kuwait in the 1980’s at the same time that 221 American troops were killed in Beirut by their Lebanese counterparts(the Kuwait and Lebanon events occured within weeks of each other) , under the guidance of the Iraqi party members who went into exile to escape Saddam, who had made their party illegal after the bombing of the U.S. Embassy.

Mrs. Godzilla

May 28th, 2009
2:04 pm

Midori

if I may….

Wyld Byll Hyltnyr

I suggest the damage done to you was not physical.

Cuz

May 28th, 2009
2:05 pm

The General in charge of Abu Ghraib was a woman. With the way Muslims feel about women, wouldn’t that be classified as torture?

Mr. Snarky

May 28th, 2009
2:06 pm

ty, I don’t have to try to do anything except enlighten you, which is futile.

No, they were soldiers unprepared and unqualified for running a prison. Rummy’s incompetence put them there and his cavalier attitude about prisoner abuse (”stuff happens”) led to the Abu Graib fiasco and the CIA’s interrogation methods. So Abu Graib and Torture are two symptoms of the same disease.

Dave R

May 28th, 2009
2:07 pm

Maybe it’s me, but I have a little bit of trouble finding any credence in this mook’s remarks when they are simply a litany of unsubstantiated opinion statements with no facts to back them up.

All brought to us by an organization that lists their membership as part and parcel in line with, or members of, every left-wing cause on the planet.

Nice try, Jay. Did you get your journalism degree out of a box of Crackerjacks?

Paul

May 28th, 2009
2:08 pm

RW-(the original) hit on part of the question at 12:11 – publicity sells books. From Barnes and Noble: “Alexander was trained in the post-Abu Ghraib interrogation techniques that replace “fear and control” with “respect, rapport, hope, cunning and deception.” He arrived in Iraq in March 2006”

Let’s see, what year was 9-11? 2001? What year was the first guy waterboarded? 2002? When did it stop? 2003? And this guy gets trained and involved years later…

Yawn.

Gets back to what you wrote earlier, Jay. He said, she said, only way to get the story and define an appropriate national policy is to get all the facts out.

Wait… we have some of the facts already. Pres Obama released OLC memos for the techniques and he also released the memos detailing the results. So we already know what we did, why we did it and what the results were. What’s that? He hasn’t released memos stating what we learned, if anything, lives saved, if any, and if other methods didn’t work but these did?

Pres Obama hasn’t released those memos? Really?!!? Golly, I can’t imagine why not!

Cuz

May 28th, 2009
2:10 pm

And Uday and Qusay Hussein were up for the Noble Peace prize until Al Gore had them taken out to bolster his chances.

N.J,

May 28th, 2009
2:10 pm

Wyld Byll Hyltnyr

there is NO valid justification that waterboarding does not result in permanent damage. Thats like saying DROWNING can never result in permanent damage.

For it to have ZERO chances of resulting in permanent damage, it must be controlled PERFECTLY, and the assertion that ANYTHING can ALWAYS be controlled perfectly is absolutely and totally not only false, but IMPOSSIBLE.

The MORE times it is repeated, the greater the odds that there will be progressive and permanent damage. Which is why the ENTIRE world and every treaty on torture prohibits it as a life threatening form of torture. Water boarding was REVERSE ENGINEERED from U.S. military training programs. What we DO know is that it is relatively harmless when the person undergoing it gets to say “STOP”. When that “STOP” factor is removed, we have NO idea as to the danger of waterboarding.

Paul

May 28th, 2009
2:15 pm

I think I know why!

Pres Obama’s reversed himself on eavesdropping. Spying. Whatever.

Pres Obama’s reversed himself on rendition.

He’s reversed himself on Iraq (well, maybe not reversed, technically… but it’s a deviation, anyhow).

He’s reversed himself on military tribunals (well, sort of, but close enough).

He’s reversed himself on pictures.

He’s reversed himself and said some detainees should be held indefinitely, without trial.

So now he’s drawing a line in the sand. This is it. No more reversals. No more memos. No more getting information out to the public so they will know and can form their own judgments.

Did I already say he’s reversed himself on secrecy?

Mrs. Godzilla

May 28th, 2009
2:17 pm

Paul

“Pres Obama hasn’t released those memos? Really?!!? Golly, I can’t imagine why not!”

No need to imagine – look it up! Or read here:

http://www.cnn.com/2009/POLITICS/05/14/cheney.torture/index.html?eref=rss_politics

Funny ain’t it, when the “ongoing investigation” line comes back and bites on in the backside!

Paul

May 28th, 2009
2:19 pm

Mrs. Godzilla

I didn’t read the link – I guessed it involved the ACLU’s ongoing suit under the Freedom of Information Act?

Doesn’t it strike you as funnily ironic? The ACLU – the ACLU! Is SUING the OBAMA administration for information and the Obama administration is stonewalling and using that as an excuse to withhold information?

LOL! How’s that hope and change going, hmmm?

Cuz

May 28th, 2009
2:22 pm

Was the Reverse Engineer a Georgia Tech graduate?

Cuz

May 28th, 2009
2:25 pm

Have any impact studies been done on the effect of unemployment at Guantanamo Bay by the closing of the detention facility?

DebbieDoRight

May 28th, 2009
2:28 pm

Soothsayer: I remember a decade or so back when all the textile workers were saying “Buy American” ; at the time I couldn’t understand why. Now I understand what they were talking about. We can’t keep exporting our money to prop up other countries. And we can’t keep blaming the “lazy american worker” when everyone knows that americans work harder than any other worker in the civilized world, (except for China — with their 15 minute lunch breaks).

DB, Gwinnettian

May 28th, 2009
2:34 pm

So Paul, basically you (and several million others) didn’t grasp that Obama was a moderate, center-left Democrat when he was running for office, and now that he’s implementing the programs he’d promised in a manner that those of us who were actually paying attention find rather unsurprising, he’s “reversing” himself?

Seriously, without any cites for your “reversing” this and “reversing” that I’m calling BS. About the only thing that constitutes an about-face might be the least consequential–the official release of photos, some of which are out there already.

And about the ACLU–this may shock you, but they tend to go about their business of vigorously defending the Bill of Rights whether the President has an R or a D after his name. That they’re suing this Administration is about as surprising as, oh, their filing an amicus brief for Limbaugh or Ollie North.

Doggone/GA

May 28th, 2009
2:36 pm

“(except for China — with their 15 minute lunch breaks).”

That’s not proof they work harder…it’s only proof they work longer.

Copyleft

May 28th, 2009
2:39 pm

Vandy Girl, you’ve already made it clear how much you hate America. You don’t have to keep proving it in every post.

We get it: You’re a clueless, ignorant coward with zero real-world experience. It SHOWS. Everyone gets it, trust me.

But don’t worry. Maybe someday you’ll learn enough to grasp either some basic logic or some sort of moral virtue. Either way, you’ll be better off than a right-winger.

Soothsayer

May 28th, 2009
2:43 pm

DebbieDoRight: Thank you! It’s gratifying to know someone is “listening.” I think we have made the gravest of mistakes by dismantling our manufacturing base in this country and shipping it overseas. Being one of the three major wealth-creation engines, we would do well to re-evaluate the wisdom of having done so.

In effect we have decided to drop all but the highest “leaves” and we wonder why the “tree” is declining. Just remember that every “good-paying” job we eliminate is one less person who can buy a home and all of the things that go into that home.

Mrs. Godzilla

May 28th, 2009
2:45 pm

Paul

If the ACLU is shaking a stick at Obama….does that mean he really isn’t the most liberal former Senator?

And I think of all the times some folks here quoted that silly article….

Paul

May 28th, 2009
2:45 pm

DB, Gwinnettian

[[So Paul, basically you (and several million others) didn’t grasp that Obama was a moderate, center-left Democrat when he was running for office]]

Was that before or after he had to run the farfarleft gauntlet in order to secure the nomination, or after, hmmm?

I kinda think MoveOn’s not to pleased with the Iraq policy they supposedly knew about (note: I had several lengthy exchanges here with Obama supporters (and detractors) in which I took the stand Obama never said he’d get ‘out’ of Iraq ‘now’. I don’t think I convinced any of them.

I’d posted several times about personally hearing him talk about ‘not something for nothing’ with gov’t aid and how the recipients would have to give back. And how the cheering decreased markedly.

I could go on – but to say current Obama supporters always viewed him a just a moderate is… well, I guess it’s an opinion.

But as I posted earlier, I’ll bet not many thought he’d be as moderate as Bush! LOL!

My point about the ACLU is that the Obama administration is practicing holding information from the public. Just like his predecessors?

BS? He didn’t go with military tribunals for detainees? He didn’t leave exceptions for renditions? He didn’t continue several positions on court cases, identical to the positions taken by the Bush Administration – more hard line, in at least one case? He didn’t reverse himself on FISA?

Oh, I know!! “BS” means ‘Bravo!!! Seriously!!!”

I graciously accept your huzzah!

DebbieDoRight

May 28th, 2009
3:33 pm

Soothsayer: American businesses have fallen into this pattern:

1) Find the best American brains to invent a product.
2) Find the best American brains to package and market a product.
3) Find some third world country person to learn the basics from the Best American Brains.
4) Set up infrastructure in a third world country.
5) Send the jobs to the third world country.

A good example of this is IBM — they had the best quarter this year that they’d ever had; then they announced to their workers that there were sending some jobs to India. Good Jobs Troop you made the company lots of money!! So….we’re gonna have to let you go; sorry.

DB, Gwinnettian

May 28th, 2009
3:35 pm

Was that before or after he had to run the farfarleft gauntlet in order to secure the nomination, or after, hmmm?

I’m not sure what this means, but I’ll just say that Obama made his bones with progressives as being the only Democrat-who-can-win who was forthrightly opposed to the Iraq invasion from the get-go.

Many saw him as being no more progressive and perhaps less so than this main competitor on other issues, healthcare being among the biggest. Don’t believe me, go dig through the archives of a joint like (say) Democratic Underground or the Atrios blog. (Of course I’m basing this on a cumulative memory, your mileage may vary, etc.)

BS? He didn’t go with military tribunals for detainees?

Perhaps “bull puckey” would’ve been more genteel, my bad. But none but the most doe-eyed idealist thinks a Presidential candidate isn’t going to shade his campaign promises to permit wiggle room. In the case of the tribunals, I don’t especially remember the notion of using military courts themselves as being the problem, but rather the ridiculous kangaroo courts they actually had in place for the Gitmo folks, that had been stuck in limbo.

I don’t have a huge ideological issue with military justice being applied to these combatants, I think justice can be served that way, always did.

He didn’t leave exceptions for renditions?

Well, given that renditioning has been a possibility for some time I’d be kind of shocked if he didn’t.

I’ll just say this much: Those of us on the left who were jeering the right with “hope you like those Executive privileges because the next Democratic President sure will” weren’t being entirely sarcastic. I figured any bit of Executive-branch power gained by a predecessor would be very difficult to resist keeping; it’s just human nature.

DB, Gwinnettian

May 28th, 2009
3:36 pm

Is the blog having afternoon munchies again?

DebbieDoRight

May 28th, 2009
3:37 pm

Paul: Obama was left with a mess. Either way he turned on the issues you stated above, left or right, nothing but disaster awaited him. Give in to the demands for releasing the photos; harm troops morale, readiness, and support; AND racket up AlQueada’s recruitment. Don’t give in and some people in your base are calling you a turncoat. Either way he’s stuck with some bad policies that now he’s gonna have to live with, as well as the rest of America, for a while.

WWPD (what would Paul do), in that situation?

DB, Gwinnettian

May 28th, 2009
3:38 pm

Was that before or after he had to run the farfarleft gauntlet in order to secure the nomination, or after

I’m not sure what this is even supposed to mean, but I’ll just say that Obama made his bones with progressives as being the only Democrat-who-can-win who was forthrightly opposed to the Iraq invasion from the get-go.

Many saw him as being no more progressive and perhaps less so than this main competitor on other issues, health care being among the biggest. Don’t believe me, go dig through the archives of a joint like (say) DemocraticUnderground or the Atrios blog. (Of course I’m basing this on a cumulative memory, your mileage may vary, etc.)

BS? He didn’t go with military tribunals for detainees?
Perhaps “bull puckey” would’ve been more genteel, my bad. But none but the most doe-eyed idealist thinks a Presidential candidate isn’t going to shade his campaign promises to permit wiggle room. In the case of the tribunals, I don’t especially remember the notion of using military courts themselves as being the problem, but rather the ridiculous kangaroo courts they actually had in place for the Gitmo folks, that had been stuck in limbo.

I don’t have a huge ideological issue with military justice being applied to these combatants, I think justice can be served that way, always did.

He didn’t leave exceptions for renditions?

Well, given that renditioning has been a possibility for some time I’d be kind of shocked if he didn’t.

I’ll just say this much: Those of us on the left who were jeering the right with “hope you like those Executive privileges because the next Democratic President sure will” weren’t being entirely sarcastic. I figured any bit of Executive-branch power gained by a predecessor would be very difficult to resist keeping; it’s just human nature.

DB, Gwinnettian

May 28th, 2009
3:41 pm

Wahh! Jay censored me!

(just wanted to try that one out, once.)

DB, Gwinnettian

May 28th, 2009
3:54 pm

I’ll try one last time to address paul, this time through DDR:

Either way he turned on the issues you stated above, left or right, nothing but disaster awaited him. Give in to the demands for releasing the photos; harm troops morale, readiness, and support; AND racket up AlQueada’s recruitment. Don’t give in and some people in your base are calling you a turncoat.

You’re making this seem harder than it is.

What you do as a politician is finesse your position so that it sounds at least a bit bolder than it really is. People who follow this stuff closely aren’t screaming “turncoat” later, they understand that (for example) a military tribunal isn’t in and of itself a horrible way to administer justice for some Gitmo detainees, but the rules that made them kangaroo courts were.

I didn’t freak about that–it didn’t really surprise me. Neither did the bit about the torture photos. in general, executive power is hard fought for and I don’t see Obama giving it up without something in return from the other branches.

He’s got this thing, and it’s bleeping golden…

DB, Gwinnettian

May 28th, 2009
3:56 pm

Whoa, thanks for clearin’ out the spam filter, Jay!

must run. later, all.

TnGelding

May 28th, 2009
4:09 pm

I Rule You :-) / You Whine :-(

May 28th, 2009
2:01 pm

Was the whole stinking town arrested?

Just shows that the war on drugs is all about keeping the courts, jails and prisons full, and to divert attention from the legal poison that’s the bigger problem.

Paul

May 28th, 2009
4:38 pm

DebbieDoRight 3:37

Looks like the thread’s working again…

[[WWPD (what would Paul do), in that situation?]]

Depends. If I was a Democrat, I’d do what Obama did: tell the farfarleft what they wanted to hear, keep the money coming in, appear to agree with them, then get the nomination and tack to the center and tell the voters what they want to hear, then get elected and do what’s practical.

If I was a Republican I’d do what McCain did: run on his record (he had a record), don’t cave to the farfarelements of the party, then pray nothing too bad happens to the economy and people don’t blame me too bad for my predecessor (even tho I opposed him on many, many things and ticked off the farfarelements of my party) so I’d have a bit of a chance.

Inheriting a lousy situation does not mean you retreat and change every single week or don’t think things though and have your own party abandon you (Gitmo).

DB, Gwinnettian

[[Was that before or after he had to run the farfarleft gauntlet in order to secure the nomination, or after

I’m not sure what this is even supposed to mean]]

It means the party diehards control the money and the support, at least through the primaries. Buck them, you may not get nominated. At least McCain could still get a nomination even though he ticked off the ultracons with the money.

Obama was the only one who could win? I think Hillary would dispute that. I seem to recall concern Obama might take the nomination but fold in the general, whereas Hillary would garner more support.

[[But none but the most doe-eyed idealist thinks a Presidential candidate isn’t going to shade his campaign promises to permit wiggle room. ]]

LOL! Is this translated correctly?: “As a Democrat, I expect my candidates to lie to me and tell me what they think I want to hear so they can get elected. If they get elected, I’ll keep my fingers crossed that they’ll at least come close to doing what they said.”

Wow.

Just a thought: what do you think would have happened in the primaries or general if Obama had said we may have to continue tribunals, FISA wasn’t all that bad, etc?

:-)

I have the same opinion as you expressed about the military justice system. In fact, I think it more appropriate than civilian court. My heartburn has always been they were trying to cobble together two existing systems, rather than come up with something new.

You made the argument “Those of us on the left who were jeering the right with “hope you like those Executive privileges because the next Democratic President sure will”?!!? Really?!!? ‘Cause I sure did. I believe I framed it more in counter to the “Bush is evil, a fascist jackbooted tyrant” mantra and to say I saw it more as a contest between Executive and Legislative powers, and that if a Democrat won we’d see more of the same.

Let me just say I didn’t find much acceptance with that on the Left. And now I read a number on the Left were making the same argument. Did I sleep through the election?!!?

I gotta say, though, his more moderate approach is something I find welcome. Moderate? How about ‘real world.’

See ya’ when you return.

DebbieDoRight

May 28th, 2009
5:03 pm

Inheriting a lousy situation does not mean you retreat and change every single week or don’t think things though and have your own party abandon you (Gitmo).

There’s nothing wrong with changing your mind and or readjusting your position to better align with the current predicament. We do it all the time in civilian life. What’s the point of going down the same road if the road leads to a dead end or worse a cliff? He didn’t have all the schematics for the Gitmo thing true; however, I bet you won’t catch him sleeping like that again.

Also, if you remember Bush made some critical errors himself in regards to this whole affair AND to the first stimulus bill he tried to pass in October, (you know the one with 3 lines and nothing spelled out?). Congress sent him packing and he went back to the drawing board and readjusted and revamped. It happens to BOTH parties at times; sometimes they’re overeager to get a process started without sitting down and connecting the dots.

Paul

May 28th, 2009
5:05 pm

DebbieDoRight

The Gitmo closing was entirely self inflicted. Seemed to be a beginning example of “I’m not Bush and here’s a big change.” So he not only announced the closing, he did it with a date certain! He could have left it open ended.

Recovering from a blunder is not the same as changing one’s mind.

He sure does seem to be ‘reevaluating’ on a whole bunch of national security issues, though, doesn’t he?

clyde

May 28th, 2009
6:40 pm

I never cared much for Cheny but I never had anything against waterboarding terrorists.

I Luv Waterboarding

May 28th, 2009
6:54 pm

Here we go again with the doublespeak- terrorism is our fault and new terrorists joining the ranks is our fault. Up your nose with a rubber hose.

RGB

May 28th, 2009
8:23 pm

If torture is a recruitment tool, then how did 9-11 happen?

Liberals don’t appreciate the fact that we haven’t been attacked (under the Bush administration) since then. In fact, the hard core libs secretly (and not so secretly) wanted another attack.

They may get their wish–on Obama’s watch. Weakness is provocative. But at least Obama will be comforted by knowing that he’s given the terrorists all their “constitutional rights”. Under Bush, constitutional rights were reserved for people who, uh, deserve constitutional rights–namely Americans. Outdated concept under Obama.

We are the change we’ve been waiting for…. Huh?

TUESDAY VANDY GIRL

May 28th, 2009
8:43 pm

copyleft…what upset you?..the “don’t ask, don’t tell” thing?

DB, Gwinnettian

May 28th, 2009
10:15 pm

“As a Democrat, I expect my candidates to lie to me and tell me what they think I want to hear so they can get elected. If they get elected, I’ll keep my fingers crossed that they’ll at least come close to doing what they said.”

Yeah. Pretty much. But then I’m a cynical guy. And I’d substitute “weasel-word” for “lie”. And I’d insist that every single person of any political ideology, if he/she were honest, would admit the same about their candidate. Anyone who doesn’t is either lying or delusional.

Ever hear of Radiohead? Never mind. This song speaks for me.

DB, Gwinnettian

May 28th, 2009
10:23 pm

oh yeah, Paul:

what do you think would have happened in the primaries or general if Obama had said we may have to continue tribunals, FISA wasn’t all that bad, etc?

First thing? He coulda spun that. Second thing? We know how he felt about FISA through his senate vote–he chose not to filibuster. Many of us were angry. Very angry. So angry that some of us continue to compensate by defending Chris Dodd. But I digress.

Obama was the only one who could win? I think Hillary would dispute that. I seem to recall concern Obama might take the nomination but fold in the general, whereas Hillary would garner more support.

I must have mis-wrote. I would’ve gladly cast a vote for HRC in the general. I think she would’ve made a fine President; much better than her husband. We all knew she would be a formidable candidate had the Dems chosen her; however, it was obvious in March that it wasn’t gonna happen, Obama had it down and watching her slow-death-march was not fun. Many of us were very, very worried that an extended primary fight to the finish was going to destroy any chances in the General.

However, we were very fortunate in that John McCain inexplicably took March, April and May off to do… I’m not sure what. Whisper sweet nothings in Joe Lieberman’s ear or something.

Anyway, I was concerned not so much about Obama “folding” but that he wasn’t tough enough to handle whatever stuff the GOP hurled at him. Boy was I wrong about that. Guy’s political smarts are epic.

Night, all.

John Lofton, Recovering Republican

May 29th, 2009
11:36 pm

Forget, please, “conservatism.” It has been, operationally, de facto, Godless and therefore irrelevant. Secular conservatism will not defeat secular liberalism because to God both are two atheistic peas-in-a-pod and thus predestined to failure. As Stonewall Jackson’s Chief of Staff R.L. Dabney said of such a humanistic belief more than 100 years ago:

“[Secular conservatism] is a party which never conserves anything. Its history has been that it demurs to each aggression of the progressive party, and aims to save its credit by a respectable amount of growling, but always acquiesces at last in the innovation. What was the resisted novelty of yesterday is today .one of the accepted principles of conservatism; it is now conservative only in affecting to resist the next innovation, which will tomorrow be forced upon its timidity and will be succeeded by some third revolution; to be denounced and then adopted in its turn. American conservatism is merely the shadow that follows Radicalism as it moves forward towards perdition. It remains behind it, but never retards it, and always advances near its leader. This pretended salt bath utterly lost its savor: wherewith shall it be salted? Its impotency is not hard, indeed, to explain. It is worthless because it is the conservatism of expediency only, and not of sturdy principle. It intends to risk nothing serious for the sake of the truth.”

Our country is collapsing because we have turned our back on God (Psalm 9:17) and refused to kiss His Son (Psalm 2).

John Lofton, Editor, TheAmericanView.com
Recovering Republican
JLof@aol.com

PS – And “Mr. Worldly Wiseman” Rush Limbaugh never made a bigger ass of himself than at CPAC where he told that blasphemous “joke” about himself and God.