CIA, Pelosi are conceivably both right

With no knowledge of what was said in secret briefings in Washington more than six years ago — briefings to which I was inexplicably not invited — I have no idea whether to side with Nancy Pelosi or the CIA in their dispute over who was told what and when by whom.

However, I think it’s entirely plausible that they’re both right.

One party comes into the meeting not wanting to give away too much information about what’s going on, and perhaps speaking in less than clear language. The other party comes in not wanting to press for too much information, and willing to accept less than clear language. Both parties come away believing they having accomplished their goals.

Six or seven years later, we have a mess.

However, in the scale of issues to be addressed regarding torture, it seems to me the Pelosi angle is exceedingly minor. Was legal? Did the Bush administration act within the Constitution? Was it effective, or did it slow the flow of accurate information? Did it end up saving lives, or did it end up costing American lives? Was it advocated by lower-level interrogators and approved reluctantly by those at the top, or was it pushed enthusiastically by those at the top and imposed on those lower in the chain of command? Was it used to save lives, or to extract politically useful confessions? Was the loss of moral standing worldwide justified by production of accurate information attainable by no other means?

Those questions far outweigh what Pelosi was or wasn’t told. And only a nonpartisan, noncongressional truth commission can produce the necessary answers.

97 comments Add your comment

Mrs. Godzilla

May 18th, 2009
4:26 pm

Yep, let’s hear the whole big ugly story.

We cannot turn the page until we read it.

getalife

May 18th, 2009
4:28 pm

It was used to try to find justification of the lies for the Iraq occupation.

That is the truth but obama, cia and the gop will cover it up.

Goldie

May 18th, 2009
4:30 pm

The fake outrage about “Pelosi knew about it, too!” is just the same ole diversionary tactic that the Repubs so love to use… remember, they also tried to blame the invasion of Iraq on those Dems who chose to give W the benefit of many doubts about Saddam’s WMDs. Yes, those said Dems were partially to blame for the invasion, but it was W & Cheney’s rhetoric and war-mongering that did the deed. Likewise, the waterboarding is all on the Bush administration for promoting it, doing it, and for trying to make it appear legal.

Taxpayer

May 18th, 2009
4:32 pm

Of course those questions outweigh what Pelosi was or wasn’t told, Jay. Now, why do some people act as though that were not the case. Are they all just a bunch of Rumsfeld wannabes — practitioners of obfuscation, for openers.

Bosch

May 18th, 2009
4:32 pm

“Six or seven years later, we have a mess”

In more ways than one, Jay, more ways than one. But seriously, isn’t that the norm for D.C.?

Bosch

May 18th, 2009
4:33 pm

And yes, there should be an investigation – and yes, Nancy Pelosi was an idiot to say that the CIA LIED to her, whatever.

But seriously, isn’t KNOWING about something a little different than ORDERING something?

Mrs. Godzilla

May 18th, 2009
4:39 pm

If the right is upset that she might possibly have KNOWN….why don’t they seem upset about what they DID?

It’s a puzzlement.

Taxpayer

May 18th, 2009
4:40 pm

We need more memos.

Taxpayer

May 18th, 2009
4:41 pm

Newt Gingrich needs to print up new bumper stickers — Free The Memos!

Mrs. Godzilla

May 18th, 2009
4:43 pm

free the memos…..and the tapes…..and the pictures….and every thing else.

Bosch

May 18th, 2009
4:43 pm

Taxpayer,

“We need more memos”

By jove! You’re right. More memos are exactly what we need – memos are just so important.

Brad Steel

May 18th, 2009
4:47 pm

Pelosi has replaced Hillary as the wing-nuts #1 hate target.

She could give one of grandchildren a bath and the AM-radio crowd would say that she has personally water-boarded American citizen.

Why doesn’t the wing-nut crowd waste some time trying to convince the world she killed Vince Foster?

Mrs. Godzilla

May 18th, 2009
4:47 pm

Thanks for memo RE:’s
The sickening torture porn
from gitmo in the morn
and abu ghraibs dorm

we’d thank you so much

Paul

May 18th, 2009
4:48 pm

Bosch

May 18th, 2009
4:50 pm

Paul,

You forgot 1.2.3. What’s wrong with you?

Paul

May 18th, 2009
4:50 pm

I post a comment. Nothing appears. I post again. Nothing. I post ‘test’ and it appears. I post the original for the third time and I get a “Duplicate Comment” notice. Yet still it doesn’t appear.

Hillbilly Deluxe

May 18th, 2009
4:54 pm

Only a nonpartisan, noncongressional truth commission can produce the necessary answers as to why refreshing this blog is such a pain.

Bosch

May 18th, 2009
4:54 pm

Paul,

Isn’t it obvious? The Easter bunnies have screwed up the blog.

Later!

I Report :-) / You Whine :-(

May 18th, 2009
4:55 pm

Yeah, so let’s run them all off.

Matter of fact, let’s call bookman columns that apologize for democrats “torture,” which I personally think are worse than “water boarding,” and then we can run off any one who agrees with them.

Unless of course, they don’t remember agreeing with them.

eewwwww

Taxpayer

May 18th, 2009
4:57 pm

Memos put an end to the “He said/She said”. Instead, we get “He wrote/She wrote”. Colorful rhetoric is instantly transformed into black and white.

N-GA

May 18th, 2009
5:06 pm

Let’s see now….the death penalty is supposed to deter violent crime. Super-Max is intended to punish the worst of the worst. Our GI’s are routinely tried for criminal offenses including torture, rape, and murder.

So, how do you deter politicians from criminal behavior? I mean they rarely get prosecuted. If prosecuted and convicted, many get pardoned. Political party doesn’t seem to matter. I think that politicians should be held to a higher standard, not a lower one.

clyde

May 18th, 2009
5:10 pm

A lot of people lied about Iraq and what went on there.

A lot of people knew what was going on in Iraq and remained silent.

Now we have to figure out what The CIA and Pelosi knew and when they knew it. Good luck finding out.

getalife

May 18th, 2009
5:11 pm

The cia and obama will not declassify any more memos.

Move on.

AmVet

May 18th, 2009
5:18 pm

It is, was from before the beginning and always will be Bush’s chosen “war”.

The neo-cons first and foremost own the stinking thing.

And that some spineless Democrats were bullied into going along doesn’t change much. At least in the eyes of the American electorate.

From downstairs, Hunstman is in my view unelectable for high national office. For a variety of reasons. Which may be true of any of their candidates who will be required by the party apparatus to try and overturn Roe v. Wade and promote yet more pollution and global warming.

From two stories down,

No my reading challenged friend RW. I do not accuse you or @@ of racism. Just using the same sophomoric technique as the bigots I described did.

Now figure out a way to spin that for awhile. Or sit and spin if you prefer…

RW-(the original)

May 18th, 2009
5:19 pm

One party comes into the meeting not wanting to give away too much information about what’s going on, and perhaps speaking in less than clear language. The other party comes in not wanting to press for too much information, and willing to accept less than clear language. Both parties come away believing they having accomplished their goals.

That’s a nearly perfect description of the relationship between Democrat politicians and their base. The last sentence needs an edit though. they having accomplished is none to clear for a trained writer. Perhaps it’s racist wording, we’ll have to wait for AmVet to show up with the decoder ring to find out.

RW-(the original)

May 18th, 2009
5:23 pm

No my reading challenged friend RW. I do not accuse you or @@ of racism. Just using the same sophomoric technique as the bigots I described did.

AmVet,

Would you like to point to an example of my use of this “sophomoric technique” that you’ve been whining about for a week? I’ll await your apology since you won’t be able to find one.

md

May 18th, 2009
5:23 pm

Pelosi wants to point the finger at others, but how dare them point it back at her. That is the problem. If she knew, she was complicit, period. If one is guilty, then they are all guilty.

So either get to the bottom of it and punish ALL or move on.

I Report :-) / You Whine :-(

May 18th, 2009
5:26 pm

Sentence #1-

It only took one days for Obozo to undermine the entire US economy, Mission Accomplished, eh?

I Report :-) / You Whine :-(

May 18th, 2009
5:30 pm

Twas the second paragraph that offends, I believe-

It only took one days for Obozo to undermine the entire US economy, Mission Accomplished, eh?

Brazil and China eye plan to axe dollar-FT.com

I guess they are looking for real money in exchange for their goods.

Not obozobucks.

I Report :-) / You Whine :-(

May 18th, 2009
5:34 pm

one hundred days, dammit!

That’s what I get for having to post one comment fifty times before it sticks.

The libs want to run the free world, they can’t even get a spam filter to work right.

AmVet

May 18th, 2009
5:39 pm

Way to dodge the salient point, RW. That your similar technique and NOT the message is what I exposed.

I’ll presume you now understand the difference. But perhaps not. Nor would you ever admit it.

Numerous times you’ve spelled my nom de guerre as amvet.

I have never ONCE seen where you’ve spelled his name andy. Or for that matter any of your kindred right-wingers.

Coincidence? Perhaps.

As for apologies, I think we’ve addressed that issue above…

Redneck Convert

May 18th, 2009
5:40 pm

Well, seems to me this Pelousy woman needs to be kicked out of office for going against the Sister Dusty rule: if somebody ain’t in office any more you can’t say nothing bad about them. That’s the way Sister Dusty always handles bloggers that say something bad about My President or his people. But it might not apply to the crazies like Al Gore or Jimmy Carter. The diffrence is they are still blabbing and My President ain’t saying nothing.

I was so busy hauling beer this p.m. I didn’t get a chance to write anything about the gay marriage thing in Bookman’s earlier blog. I wanted to say the divorce courts are busy enough as things are. The cases even spill over onto TV. We don’t need a bunch of gays clogging things up even worse.

Have a good night everybody.

Paul

May 18th, 2009
5:42 pm

Jay

I’ll try this again. Fifth time.

[[One party comes into the meeting not wanting to give away too much information about what’s going on, and perhaps speaking in less than clear language. The other party comes in not wanting to press for too much information, and willing to accept less than clear language. Both parties come away believing they having accomplished their goals.]]

Intel Committee senior members and staffers press for information. They do not operate with a wink and a nod. CIA discloses – if they don’t, truth will come out and they will get penalized.

[[The Pelosi angle is exceedingly minor]]

Was it? I’ll come back to that.

Your other questions are pertinent to the how, what, why and lessons learned; but, it does not address the Pelosi issue.

[[Was the loss of moral standing worldwide ]]

A key element of Pelosi’s continuing argument.

[[And only a nonpartisan, noncongressional truth commission can produce the necessary answers.]]

Likely true for the larger issues, but for Pelosi, there appears to be enough information to provide a reasoned assessment.

Pelosi was on a moral crusade, an attempt to set aside the Bush Administration and Republicans as the party of liars, as not moral, as not adhering to American values and diminishing our respect and stature in the eyes of the world. Hers was a moral argument: how can a country expect to retain a position of moral authority when it tortures?

Pelosi’s argument was she was innocent of knowldege. She, along with the rest of the general public, was surprised, appalled and dismayed when these events came to light. She condemned the CIA and Bush Administration for the secrecy that made this possible.

But however it came about, under whichever scenario you posited, she was part of a group who condemned her opponents for permitting it to happen.

Then we find she was briefed early on by the CIA; she strongly denied knowing waterboarding had taken place. She said it was only a future possibility (one she never followed up on), and besides, she was told there was legal authority (the same argument she so harshly attacked when used by the Bush administration).

Initial reports of those present questioned her account. The strongest came from Sen Goss, present with her, who described himself as dumbfounded by her account. Then reports came that, yes, she was in fact briefed that a terrorist was waterboarded. Again she denied it. Then documents were released showing one of her senior staffers, a person who represents her at those briefings, was briefed that a detainee had been waterboarded. Pelosi’s claim was that she had been told only that one of her staffers had attended the briefing, and besides, as she said, she had not been briefed (skirting the issue of the extent of her knowledge).

Then she claimed the CIA mislead her, a felonious act for CIA personnel. She attempted to backtrack, stating that what she had issue with was the Bush Administration. Then the CIA director, a former Clinton Chief of Staff and an Obama appointee, rebutted her by stating contemporaneous accounts support the CIA’s position that “our contemporaneous records from September 2002 indicate that CIA officers briefed truthfully on the interrogation of Abu Zubaydah, describing “the enhanced techniques that had been employed.”

This is more than a credibility issue, it is a matter of a politician taking a supposedly principled, moral position spanning years, in direct contradiction to her political opponents. Now it appears quite clear she was aware, had knowledge of past, current and future events, and even though she had a position of power from which to exert influence to modify or halt the practices, she did nothing, allowing the torture to continue.

An ongoing, willful attempt to deceive the public? It appears so. And as the leader of her party in the house, it is a deception for which neither she, nor her party, have yet been held to account.

RW-(the original)

May 18th, 2009
5:46 pm

AmVet,

Seeing as how you always abbreviate my name does that mean you’re height challenged and feel I’m exploiting you and the entire little people population if I don’t capitalize your name in your chosen spots or some such nonsense? Now run along and find an example of my doing what you accused me of that doesn’t involve whatever name you happen to be using at the moment. I doubt I ever capitalized to your satisfaction on some of your many names that were in all caps either, but it wasn’t a bigoted use of lettering. It’s just that I have no respect for you.

andy,

Are you following this nonsense?

Pokey

May 18th, 2009
5:49 pm

JB, Both right? You have got to be kidding. Did you see the Pelosi press conference? Are you kidding??? Strains credulity.

Paul

May 18th, 2009
5:50 pm

Enter your comments here

RW-(the original)

May 18th, 2009
5:52 pm

Paul,

Maybe that 5:50 is your problem. Try using the comment box. :-)

Paul

May 18th, 2009
5:54 pm

RW-(the original)

:-)

But nah, I just clicked over to the other monitor and hit ‘Submit’ instead of the Firefox refresh button. Before it occurred when I entered comments and hit ‘Submit’ – Bosch’s Easter bunnies attacked.

AmVet

May 18th, 2009
5:55 pm

“It’s just that I have no respect for you.”

And so now at long last RW finally gets honest which explains that sophomoric technique used by the racists of last century.

Tsk, tsk…

Not the first, nor the last…

Peter

May 18th, 2009
5:55 pm

Nancy Pelosi says she wasn’t briefed that torture methods were being used. Duh-bya’s statements seem to support her . . . he has maintained that we do not torture.

The world understands that waterboarding is torture.

Dick Cheney’s daughter (Liz) says that we tortured (waterboarded) but it wasn’t used to get “intelligence” on going to war in Iraq.

http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2009/05/17/iraq-war-case-wasnt-built-on-the-waterboard-liz-cheney-says/

It’s time for Duh-bya to support Nancy Pelosi or admit that he lied about enhanced interrogation.

Taxpayer

May 18th, 2009
5:56 pm

CIA discloses – if they don’t, truth will come out and they will get penalized.

Free the Memos. Then, punish the criminals. Let the punishment fit the crime. Let’s see, liars get things like slaps on the wrist. Torturers get jail time. Or, something like that.

Paul

May 18th, 2009
5:58 pm

Peter

The reverse is also correct. Whenever Spkr Pelosi refers to her involvement or to questions of what she knew and when she knew it, she never says ‘torture.’ She says “enhanced interrogation techniques’ as did the Bush Administration.

So, is it time for Pelosi to support Bush and admit she lied about enhanced interrogation?

Paul

May 18th, 2009
6:00 pm

Taxpayer

I’ll hazard a guess that more CIA memos will be released. But it won’t be official. They’ll get leaked. And it will prove difficult for Madam Speaker.

I rather think that at that news conference, she was so conditioned (remember Jay’s thread a week or two back about ‘Pavlovian responses’?) that when she got in a difficult position her mouth engaged before her brain and out came (someone) lied to me.”

md

May 18th, 2009
6:03 pm

Nancy’s been calling George dumb for 8 years. How can a person so dumb mislead someone so smart?

AmVet

May 18th, 2009
6:04 pm

I have not followed this matter in any detail.

But I do not trust Ms. Pelosi in the slightest.

If this turns out bad for her, it is likely a win for the country…

Bosch

May 18th, 2009
6:05 pm

MY Easter bunnies – oh, no sir. I’ve given those up. Have ya’ heard? They eat their young. That’s gross. Oh, wait a minute, that’s just plain old bunnies – not Easter bunnies – eggs, eggs, they eat eggs. I’ve got to get that right.

Pelosi LIED, Pelosi LIED.

There, does that satisfy the wingnuts? Seriously, when are we gonna get over this nonsense of what knew what when where how why, etc.?

Feinstein will find the truth, and then we’ll all know what happened. K?

Snort.

Bosch

May 18th, 2009
6:06 pm

md,

“How can a person so dumb mislead someone so smart?”

You talking about Bush? He’s no smart bunny.

I Report :-) / You Whine :-(

May 18th, 2009
6:07 pm

now i am, rw.

Bosch

May 18th, 2009
6:10 pm

Paul,

Leon Panetta pulled an “Oh No, you didn’t” on Pelosi. The thing is Pelosi ain’t going anywhere, she’s hugely popular, wildly even, with her constituents, and it’s not like she’s gonna lose any election.

Taxpayer

May 18th, 2009
6:11 pm

And, ultimately, Paul, I assume that you think that Pelosi will pay the price for her immorality and that will be the end of this whole torture issue with the Bush administration. Future generations of Democrats will look back on this episode and withdraw upon the very first thought of challenging the word of Dick, for example. At least, that’s about all I have been able to deduce from your assertions regarding torture thus far. So, would you care to elaborate any on the guilt or innocence of any persons in the Bush administration regarding torture and all of its derivatives. It would after all be the fair and balanced thing for a centrist such as yourself to do.

Midori

May 18th, 2009
6:11 pm

this whole issue is a NON issue.

it only reinforces how delusional, disgusting and idiotic the right is.

period.

Paul

May 18th, 2009
6:11 pm

Bosch

This reminds me, but on a much larger, much,much more serious level, of those family values Republicans later found to be having affairs with men or women or all other kinds of moral turpitude. Democrats used that, in part, to diminish Republican representation.

But this is hypocrisy involving not sexual mores, but a fundamental trust that should exist between a representative and the people; more, it involves not just personal standards but the national honor before the world. It involves practices that affect not just the person’s personal life, but the sanctity of other life (those being tortured).

It illustrates moral bankruptcy and posturing for political gain like nothing we have seen for a very long time.

I Report :-) / You Whine :-(

May 18th, 2009
6:12 pm

Speaking of which, what about getathejoke and his lowercasing of obozo, wishing we hadn’t stabbed Bruno in the back, are we?

RW-(the original)

May 18th, 2009
6:14 pm

I Report/You Whine,

I had never heard of amvet’s little racist theory of capital whites and lower case blacks, but I figured it was because I’m from the Northeast where we know their is nothing but perfect racial harmony (sarc for those that need it) and @@ is from the Left Coast where the same probably holds true if you capitalize Unicorn and fail to capitalize moonbat. I’ve checked with a few Southerners and they don’t know what he’s talking about.

Since he’s told us he’s from Oklahoma, Nebraska, and Kansas I guess you;re the closest geographically to his roots. Ever hear of this in Chicago?

Paul

May 18th, 2009
6:14 pm

Taxpayer,

No, actually, I do not.

Bosch presents me as a centrist. I do not believe I ever have.

I see nothing in anything done by the Bush Administration that can be in any way construed as an excuse for Speaker Pelosi’s conduct; if anything, it puts her squarely with them.

Bosch

May 18th, 2009
6:16 pm

Paul,

Well, I think you are right about that – and last week (I think) you were asking about would we have this conversation back then if we knew the truth (or something like that).

But you also have to take into account the national paranoia we had back then and think about what that says about our national morals. Not just politicians, but the nation as a whole. We were all so paranoid and fearful and who was fueling this paranoia and fear? And yes, it’s interesting to think that the Democrats may have been involved with this when they were quick to blame everything on Bush. It’s definitely a national lesson for all of us.

I don’t really have an answer now except to consider all this as we proceed into possible (probably more than possible) future military conflicts.

AmVet

May 18th, 2009
6:21 pm

The ironic thing is that it was @@ and I who had the discussion about the “racist” (he’s gonna stick to his guns though he long ago lost the point) technique.

And I doubt that I am alone here, when I say that I find her to be more honest, intellectually curious and frankly to have bigger ____ than her great defender of all disparaged right-wingers.

She clearly doesn’t need your help, RW…

I grew up in Kansas, graduated from high school in Nebraska. Never lived in OK.

But you truly have the makings of a stalker and are frickin weird to even care about, much less remember that stuff about me though.

Obsess much?

RW-(the original)

May 18th, 2009
6:23 pm

amvet,

I just have an excellent memory. You shouldn’t let yourself get intimidated so easily.

getalife

May 18th, 2009
6:24 pm

About time you admitted it Andy.

“now i am, rw.”

You have always been.

I called it the first week at Mike’s blog remember?

Paul

May 18th, 2009
6:26 pm

Bosch

I recall asking if, in all the discussion about torture, wherein it was used synonymously with waterboarding and to a lesser extent, EITs, that if waterboarding had never been used, but instead it had come to light we’d played loud Eminem music or interrupted their sleep cycles or grabbed them by their shirt fronts and yelled at them and insulted them, it we’d ever have had this torture discussion.

I think maybe we would have, but it would have been on a lower level and it would not have been nearly so politicized.

I think you are correct about the fear after 9-11. It fits right in with that “we knew what we did not know” line – and we as a nation were terrified, we wanted answers and we did not want any more American casualties.

But then the bureaucracy exerts its influence and mucks it all up.

Your last line – and your earlier comment about 24 tonight: think about it. Story out today about how JSOC (Joint Special Ops Command – the folks who do the Delta Force stuff) is updating plans to ’secure’ (destroy?) Pakistan’s nuke arsenal if the Taliban gets close. Y’know, those farfetched scenarios may not be all that farfetched.

Wyld Byll Hyltnyr

May 18th, 2009
6:32 pm

And Cindy “Mother” Tucker won her Pulitzer on the strength of her writing rather than the colour of her skin. Jay, you need to have some Aerosmith drinvin’ music – DREAM ON!!!!!

AmVet

May 18th, 2009
6:35 pm

An excellent memory?

And yet you can’t even remember doing what you are indicted for? And then ask for an apology?

And then never acknowledge you blew it?

Yeah, riiight.

Stalking weirdo…

Hillbilly Deluxe

May 18th, 2009
6:36 pm

Bosch @ 6:10

Leon Panetta pulled an “Oh No, you didn’t” on Pelosi

Yes he did and he’s Obama’s CIA Director. You can bet he didn’t make that statement lightly or without Obama’s approval. Looks to me like Obama is going to take advantage of this to slide Pelosi out of the way and get somebody more to his own liking into the Speaker of the House position. She may be wildly popular with her constituents but they are just one Congressional district.

Bosch

May 18th, 2009
6:38 pm

Paul,

I’m sure we would be having the same conversation, but are those other techniques considered torture? I don’t know.

I think alot of this is just good ol’ fashioned national guilt – and we are finally able to discuss it without our patriotism being questioned – and people are getting it off their chests.

Off for dinner!

Bosch

May 18th, 2009
6:38 pm

Hillbilly Deluxe,

Interesting. Maybe so! Spaghetti awaits!

RW-(the original)

May 18th, 2009
6:42 pm

Then surely you can find an example amvet. And the example has to be Upper case Republican and lower case Democrat or an upper case White an upper case R and a lower case Black

Happy hunting in your futile search.

/I’d even like to evidence that this whole evil racist plot existing anywhere outside the boundaries of your skull.

AmVet

May 18th, 2009
6:48 pm

RW, your are utterly hopeless. By intent.

Whenever your arguments fall apart and you start getting exposed in these “discussions” you become mentally unbalanced. And run around over the same old ground in ever widening circles.

I wonder how many people reading this blog see you as the embarrassment you are.

Just saying…

Off to mow the yard.

Mrs. Godzilla

May 18th, 2009
6:48 pm

Evening all.

getalife

You know I love ya’, but I must disagree. I think we’ll get most of the truth before the next election cycle. All of it? Probably not ever. There is a part of me that does not want to know the whole truth…

AmVet

It is most certainly Bush’s stinkin’ mess. With help from some stupid people and some evil people from all political flavors.

Anyway,

Y’all know me, I still hope for perp walks. This is not going away boys and girls. What if it’s true that they really only tortured to try and construct a link between Saddam and 9/11? The time line is taking shape and it ain’t pretty.

I Report :-) / You Whine :-(

May 18th, 2009
6:59 pm

If you’re thinking that Republicans are happy just because they perhaps make more money, that does not seem to be the case. The study that found Republicans to be happier than Democrats also showed that it held true even after adjusting for income.

Hehehehehehehe :-)

Whiners

RW-(the original)

May 18th, 2009
7:09 pm

So now amvet resorts to name calling. Some things truly never change.

/Moving upstairs….

Redneck Convert

May 18th, 2009
7:16 pm

Well I use capital letters for White and for Those People. I guess that don’t make me the racist some people think I am.

DB, Gwinnettian

May 18th, 2009
8:23 pm

And Cindy “Mother” Tucker won her Pulitzer on the strength of her writing

Why yes, she did.

And she is an adoptive mother, too. Splendid of you to acknowledge as much, Wyld! You’re quite the mensch.

However, I’m not sure what that has to do with Jay’s post.

the evil rich

May 18th, 2009
11:25 pm

Pelosi or the CIA….Hmmmmm, a liberal democrat from CA, NEXT!

globeflyer

May 18th, 2009
11:43 pm

Me thinks the “Lady” doth protest too much……

SkyGrunt

May 19th, 2009
12:12 am

Huumm Jay takes up for Pelosi. Go figure. Would you give a republican speaker the same argument? I doubt it. It’s all about politics. Socialist lefty, great, Conservative, destroy. This is ALL politics. A bad idea by the Fascist left to try to discredit Chaney. Something the not so bright Pelosi had to try and get her 2 cents worth. This one party DC is more afraid of the GOP and the American people (see DHS report) than it is of terrorists.

confused

May 19th, 2009
12:22 am

I’m confused
CIA n- 1 story
Speaker Pilosi – 4 stories
Which one is correct, Jay?

Doug Patterson

May 19th, 2009
4:49 am

Are you kidding me!! Why are you making excuses for her?? She is a disgrace and should not hold the office of Speaker of the House!

Bat Boy

May 19th, 2009
5:56 am

Jay Bookman says that both the CIA and Pelosi might be right. Does anyone think for nanosecond that if Pelosi were not demonstrably guilty that Bookman would be throwing her partially under the bus with this mutual error nonsense. Pelosi says that she was not told. The CIA says she was. The American People need to get to the truth whatever that takes. The speaker has told a whopper.

Smokey

May 19th, 2009
5:57 am

Yep. Dems are spineless and weak and Repubs are bullies and both parties are liars. When oh when will we get a new political party to actually lead the sheople away from the slaughter house?

dmac

May 19th, 2009
6:43 am

Why are we so focused on Pelosi?

Our senators continue to support Bush’s torture tactics.

“Applying the guidelines in the Army Field Manual to the Central Intelligence Agency and the Federal Bureau of Investigation could well hinder our ability to defend our nation and prevent future terrorist attacks.” -Saxby Chambliss in a letter to constituents, 2-23-09

Chambliss and Isakson are complicit with Bush’s war crimes. Like a child abuser, they have rationalized Bush’s depraved system of torture as being in “our best interest”.

Mort Merkel

May 19th, 2009
7:05 am

According to Fox last night, Pelosi will soon be gone, must be gone. Then, on MSNBC, they said the GOP outrage over Pelosi was backfiring on them. I hate propaganda “news,” no matter which side it comes from.

DB, Gwinnettian

May 19th, 2009
7:11 am

I hate propaganda “news,” no matter which side it comes from.

Your problem is that you consider talking heads on Fox or MSNBC to be news; they’re not.

However, I humbly submit, that of the two only Fox claims to be news. MSNBC calls itself “the place for politics,” whereas Fox says it’s “fair and balanced.” Obviously, Fox has never been the slightest bit interest in fairness and balance–if they were, they’d lose their core demographic.

Jaun Carlos Diego Raul Sanchez

May 19th, 2009
7:25 am

Pelosi is a troll that rules over troglodytes. If anyone believes her new line of crap they also believes in tooth fairies, unicorns, and global warming…the democrats are wondrous at keeping the truth from its blind uneducated minions. She needs a good water boarding to wash of that eyeliner.

joe biden senior

May 19th, 2009
7:35 am

Wonderful column, Jay. Nancy did not lie. She, like Joey Jr., just has a difficult time comprehending what she was told. Forget the fact the old girl is what, 3rd in line to succeed the prez? Let’s just disregard her involvement in this.
Keep up the good work Jay. You’re contributing to the AJC’s great success.

Copyleft

May 19th, 2009
7:44 am

It seems likely that the CIA covered up the Republicans’ war crimes to a degree, but also that Pelosi DID know (or at least suspect) that the Republicans’ war crimes.

And if she DID know about the Republicans’ war crimes and then tried to claim otherwise, she’s guilty of participating of a cover-up in the Republicans’ war crimes. She should be held accountable for her complicity in the Republican war crimes.

Oh, and how about the people who actually AUTHORIZED and COMMITTED those war crimes? Well, they were just doing their jobs.

What? I’m just repeating the talk-radio argument, like a good little conservatard….

oldmac

May 19th, 2009
7:49 am

C’mon Jay, is this the best cover story Carville and Begala can come up with. It’s obvious to anyone with a brain that the CIA told NP what was going on but she was probably daydreaming about new curtains for the office and missed it. You got two choices-she’s either lying or incompetent (or both.)

ML

the truth....

May 19th, 2009
7:54 am

If anyone wanted to know what is wrong with our county, all they have to do is read a column written by such a leftist idiot as you Mr. Bookman and read the supporting comments by your irrational and delusional fans.

The leftish mentality of this combination is exactly what invites terrorism. Oh that really doesn’t exist now does it? That was only at the 9-11 “incident”….?

So let’s see now….the world and especially our county in massive recession; the real estate market in a depression largely because of the two agencies that Dodd and Barney Baby were watching over (joke!)

You people are so mentally incompetant and morally bankrupt that it is clear we are doomed to destruction by entitlements and immorality….

If America is indeed d***d it is precisely the result of decadence and immorality, fostered and supported by the “Bookmans” of the Liberal press; the obscene lack of morals and boundaries by Obama’s chief supporters in Hollywood, and the total disregard for life by the abortionists in control standing in contrast to the insanity of life for animals and death for babies……..

Blood of the innocents is on your hands………..

atljase

May 19th, 2009
8:00 am

I do not need a nonpartisan “truth” commission to verify what nonpartisans already know – Pelosi is a liar.

Copyleft

May 19th, 2009
8:33 am

Fair enough, Jase; Pelosi was lying about her knowledge of the Republicans’ war crimes.

HUGE setback for the Democrats, amirite?? (snicker)

Jaye

May 19th, 2009
8:52 am

Her comments about the CIA were inappropriate for a Speaker of the House – third in line for the U.S. Presidency. Routinely, Pelosi needs to protect her party, but her partisanship strayed seriously and dramatically in this case.

Copyleft

May 19th, 2009
9:04 am

Inappropriate how? The CIA lies all the time, and their lying to Congress is certainly nothing new.

George Tenet on Iraq’s supposed ties to Al Qaeda.
Bill Casey on the Iran-Contra scandal.
Richard Helms on Allende/Pinochet in Chile.

It’s a sacred tradition!

William

May 19th, 2009
9:08 am

“CIA, Pelosi are conceivably both right”…what the? Even after reading the drivel between the headline and the comments the headline still says it all. Who actually believes politicians are ever “right”? I guess they always are if lying makes one right, or if taxing the subjects to pay for bigger government is right, or if spending money we don’t have to bail out car companies is right, or if raising emission and mpg standards for the car companies making it harder for them to succeed while wasting money we don’t have on them is right. Yeah, any politician’s name and right, don’t belong in the same sentence. Pelosi is just the latest one trying to weasel out of getting caught. Who cares what the lie is about, it’s still a lie. Don’t try to defend her because she’s on “your side”. We shouldn’t have sides. Both parties are crooked and ruining our country. We’re all Americans.

ken

May 19th, 2009
9:08 am

Jay, I’m not sure I understand the Constitution comment, I don’t think it talks about torture. I personally can’t stand most politicians as they all are ruining our country. I think they should all keep their damn mouths shut when it comes to anything related to us during war time.
Why do you think someone will spend 10/20 million for a $150,000 a year job, trust me it’s not because they love our country, try power, greed and money. Pelosi is just one example of a totally incompetent who is way over head and doesn’t know when to keep her mouth shut.
Wheather you believe her or not doesn’t matter, what matters is everytime her or someone else in a leadership position bad mouths our country they are just supporting our enemies.

Copyleft

May 19th, 2009
10:03 am

Ken: “I’m not sure I understand the Constitution comment, I don’t think it talks about torture.”

Sure it does. Amendment 8: “Excessive bail shall not be required, nor excessive fines imposed, nor cruel and unusual punishments inflicted.”

Now, when did Pelosi bad-mouth our country?

pat

May 19th, 2009
11:09 am

Well let’s see, we already caught Pelosi in a lie when she said she wasn’t briefed, now you don’t know who to believe when she said the CIA lied to congress? Please, spare me.
She’s been caught in two lies now, but do what you do best, ignore facts and keep you head in the sand.

Peter

May 19th, 2009
12:16 pm

Duh-bya didn’t get briefed on torture and Nancy Pelosi did? Duh-bya maintains that we do not torture. Is he lying or just misinformed? Shouldn’t he be investigated too? (Don’t forget the puppet master.)

hewhoasks

May 19th, 2009
2:30 pm

A whopper of a CIA lie: the white paper that purported to conclude the trailers found in Iraq were for biological WMD culture.

Not one fact that is direct evidence of such use is provided.

The factors that supposedly provide corroboration of the use of the trailers for WMD culture are all conjectures – or worse. (Worse = pure fantasy.)

The factors that show the trailers were for hydrogen manufacture are not properly recognized as such, other than the compressor and gas bottles. The aluminum resides, the “caustic” (that’s language that avoids using the more proper term “lye”), the water tanks and the cooling unit are also compatible with the trailers being used to manufacture hydrogen (the cooling unit because the reaction used produces both hydrogen and lots of heat.) As a chemist familiar with the reaction used to make hydrogen on the trailers I read the white paper and could clearly see the trailers were for the manufacture of hydrogen. I merely gave proper weight to the evidence the white paper ignored.

Note that the lie wasn’t a pure blatant lie: the white paper did not say “the aluminum, lye, water tanks, compressor and cooling unit are not evidence of the use of the trailers to make hydrogen.” Instead, the white paper simply avoided treating all that evidence as evidence.

Is it hard to believe that same CIA would brief members of Congress on techniques that had already been used to excess but do so in a manner that avoided actually stating the techniques had already been used and that they had been used 83 times already on one person?

Porter Goss, who was also briefed, doesn’t say he was told the techniques had been used nor does he say they had been used 83 times already on prisoner. He does say Nancy Pelosi should have realized that if the CIA said the techniques were regarded as legal that they were using them and had already used them. I agree. But that doesn’t invalidate what Pelosi says, as Jay Bookman has pointed out.