CIA, Pelosi are conceivably both right
With no knowledge of what was said in secret briefings in Washington more than six years ago — briefings to which I was inexplicably not invited — I have no idea whether to side with Nancy Pelosi or the CIA in their dispute over who was told what and when by whom.
However, I think it’s entirely plausible that they’re both right.
One party comes into the meeting not wanting to give away too much information about what’s going on, and perhaps speaking in less than clear language. The other party comes in not wanting to press for too much information, and willing to accept less than clear language. Both parties come away believing they having accomplished their goals.
Six or seven years later, we have a mess.
However, in the scale of issues to be addressed regarding torture, it seems to me the Pelosi angle is exceedingly minor. Was legal? Did the Bush administration act within the Constitution? Was it effective, or did it slow the flow of accurate information? Did it end up saving lives, or did it end up costing American lives? Was it advocated by lower-level interrogators and approved reluctantly by those at the top, or was it pushed enthusiastically by those at the top and imposed on those lower in the chain of command? Was it used to save lives, or to extract politically useful confessions? Was the loss of moral standing worldwide justified by production of accurate information attainable by no other means?
Those questions far outweigh what Pelosi was or wasn’t told. And only a nonpartisan, noncongressional truth commission can produce the necessary answers.
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97 comments Add your comment
Mrs. Godzilla
May 18th, 2009
4:26 pm
Yep, let’s hear the whole big ugly story.
We cannot turn the page until we read it.
getalife
May 18th, 2009
4:28 pm
It was used to try to find justification of the lies for the Iraq occupation.
That is the truth but obama, cia and the gop will cover it up.
Goldie
May 18th, 2009
4:30 pm
The fake outrage about “Pelosi knew about it, too!” is just the same ole diversionary tactic that the Repubs so love to use… remember, they also tried to blame the invasion of Iraq on those Dems who chose to give W the benefit of many doubts about Saddam’s WMDs. Yes, those said Dems were partially to blame for the invasion, but it was W & Cheney’s rhetoric and war-mongering that did the deed. Likewise, the waterboarding is all on the Bush administration for promoting it, doing it, and for trying to make it appear legal.
Taxpayer
May 18th, 2009
4:32 pm
Of course those questions outweigh what Pelosi was or wasn’t told, Jay. Now, why do some people act as though that were not the case. Are they all just a bunch of Rumsfeld wannabes — practitioners of obfuscation, for openers.
Bosch
May 18th, 2009
4:32 pm
“Six or seven years later, we have a mess”
In more ways than one, Jay, more ways than one. But seriously, isn’t that the norm for D.C.?
Bosch
May 18th, 2009
4:33 pm
And yes, there should be an investigation – and yes, Nancy Pelosi was an idiot to say that the CIA LIED to her, whatever.
But seriously, isn’t KNOWING about something a little different than ORDERING something?
Mrs. Godzilla
May 18th, 2009
4:39 pm
If the right is upset that she might possibly have KNOWN….why don’t they seem upset about what they DID?
It’s a puzzlement.
Taxpayer
May 18th, 2009
4:40 pm
We need more memos.
Taxpayer
May 18th, 2009
4:41 pm
Newt Gingrich needs to print up new bumper stickers — Free The Memos!
Mrs. Godzilla
May 18th, 2009
4:43 pm
free the memos…..and the tapes…..and the pictures….and every thing else.
Bosch
May 18th, 2009
4:43 pm
Taxpayer,
“We need more memos”
By jove! You’re right. More memos are exactly what we need – memos are just so important.
Brad Steel
May 18th, 2009
4:47 pm
Pelosi has replaced Hillary as the wing-nuts #1 hate target.
She could give one of grandchildren a bath and the AM-radio crowd would say that she has personally water-boarded American citizen.
Why doesn’t the wing-nut crowd waste some time trying to convince the world she killed Vince Foster?
Mrs. Godzilla
May 18th, 2009
4:47 pm
Thanks for memo RE:’s
The sickening torture porn
from gitmo in the morn
and abu ghraibs dorm
we’d thank you so much
Paul
May 18th, 2009
4:48 pm
test
Bosch
May 18th, 2009
4:50 pm
Paul,
You forgot 1.2.3. What’s wrong with you?
Paul
May 18th, 2009
4:50 pm
I post a comment. Nothing appears. I post again. Nothing. I post ‘test’ and it appears. I post the original for the third time and I get a “Duplicate Comment” notice. Yet still it doesn’t appear.
Hillbilly Deluxe
May 18th, 2009
4:54 pm
Only a nonpartisan, noncongressional truth commission can produce the necessary answers as to why refreshing this blog is such a pain.
Bosch
May 18th, 2009
4:54 pm
Paul,
Isn’t it obvious? The Easter bunnies have screwed up the blog.
Later!
I Report :-) / You Whine :-(
May 18th, 2009
4:55 pm
Yeah, so let’s run them all off.
Matter of fact, let’s call bookman columns that apologize for democrats “torture,” which I personally think are worse than “water boarding,” and then we can run off any one who agrees with them.
Unless of course, they don’t remember agreeing with them.
eewwwww
Taxpayer
May 18th, 2009
4:57 pm
Memos put an end to the “He said/She said”. Instead, we get “He wrote/She wrote”. Colorful rhetoric is instantly transformed into black and white.
N-GA
May 18th, 2009
5:06 pm
Let’s see now….the death penalty is supposed to deter violent crime. Super-Max is intended to punish the worst of the worst. Our GI’s are routinely tried for criminal offenses including torture, rape, and murder.
So, how do you deter politicians from criminal behavior? I mean they rarely get prosecuted. If prosecuted and convicted, many get pardoned. Political party doesn’t seem to matter. I think that politicians should be held to a higher standard, not a lower one.
clyde
May 18th, 2009
5:10 pm
A lot of people lied about Iraq and what went on there.
A lot of people knew what was going on in Iraq and remained silent.
Now we have to figure out what The CIA and Pelosi knew and when they knew it. Good luck finding out.
getalife
May 18th, 2009
5:11 pm
The cia and obama will not declassify any more memos.
Move on.
AmVet
May 18th, 2009
5:18 pm
It is, was from before the beginning and always will be Bush’s chosen “war”.
The neo-cons first and foremost own the stinking thing.
And that some spineless Democrats were bullied into going along doesn’t change much. At least in the eyes of the American electorate.
From downstairs, Hunstman is in my view unelectable for high national office. For a variety of reasons. Which may be true of any of their candidates who will be required by the party apparatus to try and overturn Roe v. Wade and promote yet more pollution and global warming.
From two stories down,
No my reading challenged friend RW. I do not accuse you or @@ of racism. Just using the same sophomoric technique as the bigots I described did.
Now figure out a way to spin that for awhile. Or sit and spin if you prefer…
RW-(the original)
May 18th, 2009
5:19 pm
One party comes into the meeting not wanting to give away too much information about what’s going on, and perhaps speaking in less than clear language. The other party comes in not wanting to press for too much information, and willing to accept less than clear language. Both parties come away believing they having accomplished their goals.
That’s a nearly perfect description of the relationship between Democrat politicians and their base. The last sentence needs an edit though. they having accomplished is none to clear for a trained writer. Perhaps it’s racist wording, we’ll have to wait for AmVet to show up with the decoder ring to find out.
RW-(the original)
May 18th, 2009
5:23 pm
No my reading challenged friend RW. I do not accuse you or @@ of racism. Just using the same sophomoric technique as the bigots I described did.
AmVet,
Would you like to point to an example of my use of this “sophomoric technique” that you’ve been whining about for a week? I’ll await your apology since you won’t be able to find one.
md
May 18th, 2009
5:23 pm
Pelosi wants to point the finger at others, but how dare them point it back at her. That is the problem. If she knew, she was complicit, period. If one is guilty, then they are all guilty.
So either get to the bottom of it and punish ALL or move on.
I Report :-) / You Whine :-(
May 18th, 2009
5:26 pm
Sentence #1-
It only took one days for Obozo to undermine the entire US economy, Mission Accomplished, eh?
I Report :-) / You Whine :-(
May 18th, 2009
5:30 pm
Twas the second paragraph that offends, I believe-
It only took one days for Obozo to undermine the entire US economy, Mission Accomplished, eh?
Brazil and China eye plan to axe dollar-FT.com
I guess they are looking for real money in exchange for their goods.
Not obozobucks.
I Report :-) / You Whine :-(
May 18th, 2009
5:34 pm
one hundred days, dammit!
That’s what I get for having to post one comment fifty times before it sticks.
The libs want to run the free world, they can’t even get a spam filter to work right.
AmVet
May 18th, 2009
5:39 pm
Way to dodge the salient point, RW. That your similar technique and NOT the message is what I exposed.
I’ll presume you now understand the difference. But perhaps not. Nor would you ever admit it.
Numerous times you’ve spelled my nom de guerre as amvet.
I have never ONCE seen where you’ve spelled his name andy. Or for that matter any of your kindred right-wingers.
Coincidence? Perhaps.
As for apologies, I think we’ve addressed that issue above…
Redneck Convert
May 18th, 2009
5:40 pm
Well, seems to me this Pelousy woman needs to be kicked out of office for going against the Sister Dusty rule: if somebody ain’t in office any more you can’t say nothing bad about them. That’s the way Sister Dusty always handles bloggers that say something bad about My President or his people. But it might not apply to the crazies like Al Gore or Jimmy Carter. The diffrence is they are still blabbing and My President ain’t saying nothing.
I was so busy hauling beer this p.m. I didn’t get a chance to write anything about the gay marriage thing in Bookman’s earlier blog. I wanted to say the divorce courts are busy enough as things are. The cases even spill over onto TV. We don’t need a bunch of gays clogging things up even worse.
Have a good night everybody.
Paul
May 18th, 2009
5:42 pm
Jay
I’ll try this again. Fifth time.
[[One party comes into the meeting not wanting to give away too much information about what’s going on, and perhaps speaking in less than clear language. The other party comes in not wanting to press for too much information, and willing to accept less than clear language. Both parties come away believing they having accomplished their goals.]]
Intel Committee senior members and staffers press for information. They do not operate with a wink and a nod. CIA discloses – if they don’t, truth will come out and they will get penalized.
[[The Pelosi angle is exceedingly minor]]
Was it? I’ll come back to that.
Your other questions are pertinent to the how, what, why and lessons learned; but, it does not address the Pelosi issue.
[[Was the loss of moral standing worldwide ]]
A key element of Pelosi’s continuing argument.
[[And only a nonpartisan, noncongressional truth commission can produce the necessary answers.]]
Likely true for the larger issues, but for Pelosi, there appears to be enough information to provide a reasoned assessment.
Pelosi was on a moral crusade, an attempt to set aside the Bush Administration and Republicans as the party of liars, as not moral, as not adhering to American values and diminishing our respect and stature in the eyes of the world. Hers was a moral argument: how can a country expect to retain a position of moral authority when it tortures?
Pelosi’s argument was she was innocent of knowldege. She, along with the rest of the general public, was surprised, appalled and dismayed when these events came to light. She condemned the CIA and Bush Administration for the secrecy that made this possible.
But however it came about, under whichever scenario you posited, she was part of a group who condemned her opponents for permitting it to happen.
Then we find she was briefed early on by the CIA; she strongly denied knowing waterboarding had taken place. She said it was only a future possibility (one she never followed up on), and besides, she was told there was legal authority (the same argument she so harshly attacked when used by the Bush administration).
Initial reports of those present questioned her account. The strongest came from Sen Goss, present with her, who described himself as dumbfounded by her account. Then reports came that, yes, she was in fact briefed that a terrorist was waterboarded. Again she denied it. Then documents were released showing one of her senior staffers, a person who represents her at those briefings, was briefed that a detainee had been waterboarded. Pelosi’s claim was that she had been told only that one of her staffers had attended the briefing, and besides, as she said, she had not been briefed (skirting the issue of the extent of her knowledge).
Then she claimed the CIA mislead her, a felonious act for CIA personnel. She attempted to backtrack, stating that what she had issue with was the Bush Administration. Then the CIA director, a former Clinton Chief of Staff and an Obama appointee, rebutted her by stating contemporaneous accounts support the CIA’s position that “our contemporaneous records from September 2002 indicate that CIA officers briefed truthfully on the interrogation of Abu Zubaydah, describing “the enhanced techniques that had been employed.”
This is more than a credibility issue, it is a matter of a politician taking a supposedly principled, moral position spanning years, in direct contradiction to her political opponents. Now it appears quite clear she was aware, had knowledge of past, current and future events, and even though she had a position of power from which to exert influence to modify or halt the practices, she did nothing, allowing the torture to continue.
An ongoing, willful attempt to deceive the public? It appears so. And as the leader of her party in the house, it is a deception for which neither she, nor her party, have yet been held to account.
RW-(the original)
May 18th, 2009
5:46 pm
AmVet,
Seeing as how you always abbreviate my name does that mean you’re height challenged and feel I’m exploiting you and the entire little people population if I don’t capitalize your name in your chosen spots or some such nonsense? Now run along and find an example of my doing what you accused me of that doesn’t involve whatever name you happen to be using at the moment. I doubt I ever capitalized to your satisfaction on some of your many names that were in all caps either, but it wasn’t a bigoted use of lettering. It’s just that I have no respect for you.
andy,
Are you following this nonsense?
Pokey
May 18th, 2009
5:49 pm
JB, Both right? You have got to be kidding. Did you see the Pelosi press conference? Are you kidding??? Strains credulity.
Paul
May 18th, 2009
5:50 pm
Enter your comments here
RW-(the original)
May 18th, 2009
5:52 pm
Paul,
Maybe that 5:50 is your problem. Try using the comment box.
Paul
May 18th, 2009
5:54 pm
RW-(the original)
But nah, I just clicked over to the other monitor and hit ‘Submit’ instead of the Firefox refresh button. Before it occurred when I entered comments and hit ‘Submit’ – Bosch’s Easter bunnies attacked.
AmVet
May 18th, 2009
5:55 pm
“It’s just that I have no respect for you.”
And so now at long last RW finally gets honest which explains that sophomoric technique used by the racists of last century.
Tsk, tsk…
Not the first, nor the last…
Peter
May 18th, 2009
5:55 pm
Nancy Pelosi says she wasn’t briefed that torture methods were being used. Duh-bya’s statements seem to support her . . . he has maintained that we do not torture.
The world understands that waterboarding is torture.
Dick Cheney’s daughter (Liz) says that we tortured (waterboarded) but it wasn’t used to get “intelligence” on going to war in Iraq.
http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2009/05/17/iraq-war-case-wasnt-built-on-the-waterboard-liz-cheney-says/
It’s time for Duh-bya to support Nancy Pelosi or admit that he lied about enhanced interrogation.
Taxpayer
May 18th, 2009
5:56 pm
CIA discloses – if they don’t, truth will come out and they will get penalized.
Free the Memos. Then, punish the criminals. Let the punishment fit the crime. Let’s see, liars get things like slaps on the wrist. Torturers get jail time. Or, something like that.
Paul
May 18th, 2009
5:58 pm
Peter
The reverse is also correct. Whenever Spkr Pelosi refers to her involvement or to questions of what she knew and when she knew it, she never says ‘torture.’ She says “enhanced interrogation techniques’ as did the Bush Administration.
So, is it time for Pelosi to support Bush and admit she lied about enhanced interrogation?
Paul
May 18th, 2009
6:00 pm
Taxpayer
I’ll hazard a guess that more CIA memos will be released. But it won’t be official. They’ll get leaked. And it will prove difficult for Madam Speaker.
I rather think that at that news conference, she was so conditioned (remember Jay’s thread a week or two back about ‘Pavlovian responses’?) that when she got in a difficult position her mouth engaged before her brain and out came (someone) lied to me.”
md
May 18th, 2009
6:03 pm
Nancy’s been calling George dumb for 8 years. How can a person so dumb mislead someone so smart?
AmVet
May 18th, 2009
6:04 pm
I have not followed this matter in any detail.
But I do not trust Ms. Pelosi in the slightest.
If this turns out bad for her, it is likely a win for the country…
Bosch
May 18th, 2009
6:05 pm
MY Easter bunnies – oh, no sir. I’ve given those up. Have ya’ heard? They eat their young. That’s gross. Oh, wait a minute, that’s just plain old bunnies – not Easter bunnies – eggs, eggs, they eat eggs. I’ve got to get that right.
Pelosi LIED, Pelosi LIED.
There, does that satisfy the wingnuts? Seriously, when are we gonna get over this nonsense of what knew what when where how why, etc.?
Feinstein will find the truth, and then we’ll all know what happened. K?
Snort.
Bosch
May 18th, 2009
6:06 pm
md,
“How can a person so dumb mislead someone so smart?”
You talking about Bush? He’s no smart bunny.
I Report :-) / You Whine :-(
May 18th, 2009
6:07 pm
now i am, rw.
Bosch
May 18th, 2009
6:10 pm
Paul,
Leon Panetta pulled an “Oh No, you didn’t” on Pelosi. The thing is Pelosi ain’t going anywhere, she’s hugely popular, wildly even, with her constituents, and it’s not like she’s gonna lose any election.
Taxpayer
May 18th, 2009
6:11 pm
And, ultimately, Paul, I assume that you think that Pelosi will pay the price for her immorality and that will be the end of this whole torture issue with the Bush administration. Future generations of Democrats will look back on this episode and withdraw upon the very first thought of challenging the word of Dick, for example. At least, that’s about all I have been able to deduce from your assertions regarding torture thus far. So, would you care to elaborate any on the guilt or innocence of any persons in the Bush administration regarding torture and all of its derivatives. It would after all be the fair and balanced thing for a centrist such as yourself to do.