On torture, necessity ever more apparent for impartial probe
President Obama has decided to oppose the release of photographic evidence of prisoner abuse by U.S. troops, reversing an earlier pledge to make the photos public. I can’t say I support the decision, but it’s certainly easier to swallow coming from an administration that acknowledges the abuse occurred and was more widespread than we want to admit.
That’s a stark contrast with the Bush administration, which tried to deny or minimize such abuse even while sitting on evidence that proved otherwise. Among other things, the photos demonstrate what happens when military discipline breaks down — once abuse is officially tolerated under some circumstances, it become much harder to prevent its “migration” into other situations. They also demonstrate why the nation needs a nonpartisan commission to look into the full impact of the decision to strip prisoners of all legal protection.
In another torture-related development, Col. Lawrence Wilkerson, the longtime chief of staff to Colin Powell, makes an interesting point about Dick Cheney. According to Cheney, Obama has endangered national security by outlawing torture as an interrogation technique (actually, federal law made torture illegal a long time ago, but we’ll let that slide for the moment.)
Here’s what Wilkerson points out:
“My investigations have revealed to me — vividly and clearly — that once the Abu Ghraib photographs were made public in the spring of 2004, the CIA, its contractors, and everyone else involved in administering “the Cheney methods of interrogation”, simply shut down. Nada. Nothing. No torture or harsh techniques were employed by any U.S. interrogator. Period. People were too frightened by what might happen to them if they continued.
What I am saying is that no torture or harsh interrogation techniques were employed by any U.S. interrogator for the entire second term of Cheney-Bush, 2005-2009. So, if we are to believe the protestations of Dick Cheney, that Obama’s having shut down the “Cheney interrogation methods” will endanger the nation, what are we to say to Dick Cheney for having endangered the nation for the last four years of his vice presidency?”
Great question, Col. Wilkerson.
However, Wilkerson goes on to make an even more startling claim: The Bush administration approved and pushed torture soon after 9/11 mainly to get justification for invading Iraq. Cheney in particular was insisting that interrogators deliver confirming evidence of a link between al Qaida and Iraq, one of his personal pet theories:
“So furious was this effort that on one particular detainee, even when the interrogation team had reported to Cheney’s office that their detainee “was compliant” (meaning the team recommended no more torture), the VP’s office ordered them to continue the enhanced methods. The detainee had not revealed any al-Qa’ida-Baghdad contacts yet. This ceased only after Ibn al-Shaykh al-Libi, under waterboarding in Egypt, “revealed” such contacts. Of course later we learned that al-Libi revealed these contacts only to get the torture to stop.”
That claim by Wilkerson follows a story broken initially last month by the Washington Bureau of McClatchy Newspapers. According to Jonathan S. Landay:
“A former senior U.S. intelligence official familiar with the interrogation issue said that Cheney and former Defense Secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld demanded that the interrogators find evidence of al Qaida-Iraq collaboration.
“There were two reasons why these interrogations were so persistent, and why extreme methods were used,” the former senior intelligence official said on condition of anonymity because of the issue’s sensitivity.
“The main one is that everyone was worried about some kind of follow-up attack (after 9/11). But for most of 2002 and into 2003, Cheney and Rumsfeld, especially, were also demanding proof of the links between al Qaida and Iraq that (former Iraqi exile leader Ahmed) Chalabi and others had told them were there.”
“There was constant pressure on the intelligence agencies and the interrogators to do whatever it took to get that information out of the detainees, especially the few high-value ones we had, and when people kept coming up empty, they were told by Cheney’s and Rumsfeld’s people to push harder,” he continued.
“Cheney’s and Rumsfeld’s people were told repeatedly, by CIA . . . and by others, that there wasn’t any reliable intelligence that pointed to operational ties between bin Laden and Saddam, and that no such ties were likely because the two were fundamentally enemies, not allies.”
Senior administration officials, however, “blew that off and kept insisting that we’d overlooked something, that the interrogators weren’t pushing hard enough, that there had to be something more we could do to get that information,” he said.
It’s hard to know how much truth there is in that. Personally, I can’t buy a claim that explosive without seeing more proof. And again, that’s something an impartial panel ought to explore. Without such an investigation, we’re going to hear a lot of wild rumors and allegations from all sides for years to come, with no means to ascertain the truth or exonerate the innocent.
Which brings us to the rather remarkable matter of House Speaker Nancy Pelosi essentially accusing the CIA of lying about how much they told her and when about the use of “enhanced interrogation.” Other top Democrats are also refuting CIA claims that they were told about techiques such as waterboarding.
It is entirely plausible that Pelosi and others are attempting to cover up what they knew. It is also entirely plausible that the CIA is trying to “spread the blame” for what occurred. Without an impartial, noncongressional investigation, we’ll never know the truth. And the truth on this matter is important.
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189 comments Add your comment
Copyleft
May 15th, 2009
9:59 am
We already know that crimes are committed and coverups were attempted; why try to sweept it under the rug?
Investigate, and publish the photos. America needs to know what was being done, ILLEGALLY, in our name and with the shameful compliance of all too many of our public officials.
Mrs. Godzilla
May 15th, 2009
10:02 am
I have never thought we could turn the page on torture without reading it.
We MUST know the truth.
getalife
May 15th, 2009
10:02 am
Torture for the 9/11 connection to Iraq lie.
Let them keep taliking and more will come out.
They already admitted torture and now lying about the briefings.
jt
May 15th, 2009
10:06 am
“what occurred. Without an impartial, noncongressional investigation, we’ll never know the truth”
Get over it.
“enhanced interrogation” coming to you soon.
Doggone/GA
May 15th, 2009
10:16 am
Said to Katie Couric, Sept 6, 2006:
“Mr. Bush said. “But the other thing is that we have to have the capacity to interrogate — not torture, but interrogate people to learn information.” ”
“the President said. “I’ve said to the people that we don’t torture, and we don’t.” ”
Ok, so if we don’t torture, and what they did to those prisoners was not torture, then exactly WHAT is Nancy Pelosi “guilty” of concealing?
If she’s (IF) she’s concealing knowlege of torture…then it means we DID torture those prisoners, and Bush lied, twice, in the same interview. Since torture is illegal, then Bush and his cadre are guilty of breaking the law against torture.
You can’t get around it: IF Pelosi is concealing knowledge of torture, then the Bush administration is guilty of torture, and of lying about torture. If they didn’t sanction torture, and what was done was NOT torture…then what Pelosi knew, knows, or didn’t know means nothing, nada, zip…and the emphasis on her is just a distaction from finding out the TRUTH.
AmVet
May 15th, 2009
10:18 am
I have been thinking about how this jaw-dropping implosion of the once Grand Old Party is shocking in at least two regards.
How severe and how sudden the collapse has been.
I’ve never seen, or heard of, a major political party, essentially dropping off the face of their flat-earth is such stunning fashion and is such a record short time.
To go from controlling both the Legislative and Executive branches of the federal government to being nearly universally repudiated in two and a half years or so is amazing, don’t you think?
And gratifying.
Thank you former Republicans, independents, moderates, progressives, Greens, Libertarians and yes, even you Democrats.
It’s gonna take a lot of time and effort to undue the massive damage brought to we the people by the Republiconned, but we will clean up this foul mess they left behind…
Paul
May 15th, 2009
10:19 am
Jay
Wow. Just keeps getting more and more convolutedly involved. I wish an impartial commission could get to the bottom of this….
I wrote a couple days ago there’s a big difference between disproving a fear (AQ-Iraq) connection and working to find one. Sadly, it’s appearing more and more evident Cheney and others lost sight of this.
This was interesting: “What I am saying is that no torture or harsh interrogation techniques were employed by any U.S. interrogator for the entire second term of Cheney-Bush, 2005-2009.”
According to many I’ve listened to, torture was ongoing, unceasing, widespread, ingrained and rampant. Happily, it’s appearing more and more evident the ultraleft and others were wrong in there statements of fact.
But back to the commission idea: some have speculated in light of the Spkr Pelosi fiasco this will be allowed to fade away. Incredible that a main proponent of investigations would be a major factor in stopping those investigations, given her apparent complicity?
From the previous thread, probably more appropriate here:
Spkr Pelosi sought to distract her attention from what she knew and when she knew it regarding torture when she accused the CIA of repeatedly lying to her.
Any idea how the CIA lied in its briefings to members of the House and Senate Intelligence Committees, and their staffers, regarding Enhanced Interrogation Techniques, as Speaker Pelosi claims?
I wonder, did they tell Spkr Pelosi they were not going to waterboard anybody? Did CIA tell her they had no legal opinions to support what they were going to do? Did CIA tell her they were not considering using any Enhanced Interrogation Techniques?
and…
Did Speaker Pelosi give the impression she was never aware anyone had been waterboarded? Did she give an account, directly contradicted by Porter Goss, who attended the briefing with her? Did she assent in asking the CIA if there was anything else Congress could do, were there more things CIA could do, to get the info from the detainees?
Swami Dave
May 15th, 2009
10:19 am
Interestingly Jay, your intro paragraph represents some of the clearest evidence of the liberal bias of many of your fellow media members.
“President Obama has decided to oppose the release of photographic evidence of prisoner abuse by U.S. troops, reversing an earlier pledge to make the photos public. I can’t say I support the decision, but it’s certainly easier to swallow coming from an administration that acknowledges the abuse occurred and was more widespread than we want to admit.”
Yes, you are a columnist – not a journalist; however, the sentiment you voice is the liberal infestation that permeates the industry.
To paraphrase your statement: I disagree with the decision, but since it’s my guy making it, that makes it “easier to swallow”.
If the President were to circle back on other decisions (like Guantanamo or international wiretapping or Afganistan or Iraq or military tribunals) and revert to what was essentially the Bush Administration policy that you have been railing against since 9/11, would you simply “oh well” those occasions of broken campaign rhetoric shown ludicrous in the light of reality or vent your “moral outrage” that we have been hearing about for the last 8 years?
How might you respond if the President realized the stupidity and historical failure of attempts to confiscate the productivity of our achievers to fund transfer payments and programs for others unwilling to do it for themselves? Would that be “easier to swallow” if -he- did it (since you “know” that he “cares”) than if someone whom your happened to have opposed did it?
Having been a consistent detractor to the previous administration for some of their bad decisions (like Prescription Drug Coverage and others that expanded “nanny state” aspects of our government), I am pretty comfortable with my intellectual honesty.
We shall see.
-Swammi Dave
Daryl
May 15th, 2009
10:20 am
You media types are such hypocrites.
georgian by birth floridian because I'm lucky
May 15th, 2009
10:20 am
there will be no invesitgation until after the 2010 elections, those inpower have too much to lose by what could be uncovered.
Sounded like a great idea for these politicians when they thought only the bush admin. was going to be blamed for any of this.
Just kinda comical to watch Speaker Pelosi wiggle under the lights alil, what is it like version number 4 of what she was told. Funny how CIA’s version has not changed in last few weeks only hers.
Mrs. Godzilla
May 15th, 2009
10:23 am
only thing funnier that Nancy’s wiggle is Cheney’s evil sneer!
Paul
May 15th, 2009
10:24 am
Doggone/GA 10:16
I read it more as a hairsplitting worthy of a Pelosi intervention. The Bush Administration said EITs were not torture as they had opinion from the Office of Legal Counsel so stating; therefore, to refer to these practices as ‘torture’ would be incorrect.
“Aha!’ says Spkr Pelosi. “Waterboarding is torture, therefore, you tortured.”
“Not so” says Bush. “We used EITs.”
“But Speaker Pelsoi, ” says the reporter, “didn’t you know years ago that we were waterboarding detainees?”
“You mean the Enhanced Interrogation Techniques, such as waterboarding?” says Pelosi.
It’s torture when the other guy does it.
It’s an enhanced interrogation technique when you know about it.
johnny p
May 15th, 2009
10:25 am
Have we all gone mad?Do you think we won 2 world wars because we were nice to our enemies?This is how wars are fought.Remember,if and when these terrorists ever get a chance to infiltrate our schools,do you think they won’t start killing your children?Think again.Just look at what happened in Russia a few years back with the Chechin rebels in the heart of Moscow.WAKE UP.
Doggone/GA
May 15th, 2009
10:26 am
“Just kinda comical to watch Speaker Pelosi wiggle under the lights alil, what is it like version number 4 of what she was told. Funny how CIA’s version has not changed in last few weeks only hers”
You obviously DON’T read all the posts before you reply. Look above: WHAT is Pelosi “guilty” of conecealing? Torture? If that’s true, then it’s proof that the Bush administration connived in breaking our laws against torture.
If it wasn’t torture, than what the heck does it matter what Pelosi was or wasn’t told, or what she says about it now?
Doggone/GA
May 15th, 2009
10:28 am
“Do you think we won 2 world wars because we were nice to our enemies?”
Every heard of the Nuremburg trials?
sane jane
May 15th, 2009
10:31 am
Is the spectre of a Speaker Pelosi perp-walking alongside Cheney supposed to discourage me from learning the entire truth here?
Because it seems to be having the opposite effect.
md
May 15th, 2009
10:36 am
“If it wasn’t torture, than what the heck does it matter what Pelosi was or wasn’t told, or what she says about it now?”
She is pushing to find Bush guilty, she can not have it both ways.
Liberty
May 15th, 2009
10:36 am
Great article. In addition, the comments and the additional questions they raise very thought provoking. Thanks. Why do our elected officials seem to ignore or diregard the intelligent and astute wisdom of the very people they represent?? Have we become so apathetic that we are easy to ignore? I plan to cut and paste some of the facts provided herein and mail it to my Senators and Congressman. Maybe if enough of us do this, they will actually do our bidding.
Pokey
May 15th, 2009
10:37 am
Oh , c’mon Jay, you’ve never shied away from the claims of ‘unnamed senior officials’ when their “claims” supported the fevered points you hope to make. Funny how the motives of these “unnamed senior officals” are never questioned by you either. And now you suggest Pelosi may be telling the truth? Did you watch her news conference?? ROTFLAO!!
And for Colin Powell and his former chief of staff…well they’re in the Colin Powell legacy business. Can’t question their motives either can we? And while we’re on Colin Powell character, why did he not come forth and tell the special prosecutor he knew who the leak was in the manufactured Valerie Plame “scandal”? I wonder what his motive was then?
And guys never question Jay Bookman’s motives either…don’t you know he was a Gerald Ford Republican, his daddy was in the military, and he’s a “journalist”?
Federalist
May 15th, 2009
10:38 am
I do not care about those scums we’ve captured. They all should stay at GITMO and when the last one dies. Close it! The torture is these wacky people who want to kill themselves and anybody else they can kill in the name of Allah or whatever… They must be stopped, our children should not grow up having to worry about if they are going to be blown up out in public! God Bless America!!!
Wyld Byll Hyltnyr
May 15th, 2009
10:40 am
First, let’s be clear on this, EIT was used on but three very evil animals. EIT means waterboarding, loud hip hop music for hours on end, bugs-in-a-box, and, yes waterboarding. To me, this sounds like we submitted some real miscreants to about as much a trauma as pledge week at a solid 1960s fraternity. We had a pledge ritual that sure sounds a lot like waterboarding, beer substituted for water, and it wasn’t that bad. In fact, we used to have duration contests and Ol’ Wyld Byll held the record at 2:37 for quite a while. (Author’s note: I suspect that those who broke my record were using performance enhancing drugs such as qualuuds.)
I wish the liberals could understand that AQ is the enemy not Bush/Cheney. But, President Bush understood that there is both good and true evil in this world and, not only said so, but acted accordingly. President Bush unashamedly acknowledged that we are all evil, saved only through the Christ. The liberals cannot accept this fact as it damns almost the whole immoral lot (sorry, Jay) straight to h*ll for an eternity of teeth gnashing and, as such, the liberals wage a blind and phyrric war upon all that has anything to do with President Bush or Christ. In the deluded and deranged liberal mind, letting the terrorists off the hook is but a small price to pay to attack President Bush and Jesus in the vainglorious hope that the Truth will not come to pass.
Praise G-d and pray for the liberals’ souls.
sane jane
May 15th, 2009
10:42 am
Federalist’s point of view seems to be more in line with the terrorists than his fellow, law-abiding Americans.
Does Jesus share your “kill ‘em all, let God sort ‘em out” mentality?
georgian by birth floridian because I'm lucky
May 15th, 2009
10:42 am
Mrs. Godzilla,
Don’t know if I would say funnier, he just kinda slims around, not a child molestor, but I agree his grin or smirk gives you the same yukie feeling.
What you think anything get done until after 2010? I say no, too much to be lost in the election.
sane jane
May 15th, 2009
10:47 am
I wonder what Jesus would think of WBH’s second paragraph. Considering he’s doing it all for the glory of Christ & whatnot.
Want to see evil? Look in the mirror.*
*this applies to all of us; self included.
booger
May 15th, 2009
10:47 am
Pelosi looked like a deer caught in the headlights on TV yeaterday.
Her story is that the CIA said waterboarding was one of the EITs but they had not used it yet. Five monthhs later one of her staffers told her that she had learned from the ranking member of the Intelligence committee that it was being used and had sent a memo to the admin. protesting it’s use. Pelosi said this was the correct response since she was no longer ranking member, so she did nothing further. Her response was to work hard to replace the president and gain leadership in the congress and she succeeded.
The issue here is that Pelosi had repeatedly said she did not know about waterboarding. Now she says she did know 5 months after her meeting. She goes on to say the CIA lied to her and Congress five months earlier.
What’s the story the Media runs with…..”CIA Lies”
georgian by birth floridian because I'm lucky
May 15th, 2009
10:48 am
Doggone,
just refer to paul’s post regarding when and why Pelosi regards torture, odd how even she now calls them EIT’s huh.
But I have seen your post before, you ae partisian, thats, fine, but do not try to act like you do not view things through hypocritical glasses, that againis fine it is who you are.
I understand that all you want to do is attack those you disagree with and blindly follow those you agree.
Also you do not know my position on the Bush, regime, but it is telling how you chose go to the time tested practice of protecting Nancy, by saying well Bush did it too, and she knew about it the whole time possibly. But I would never expect you to have anything negative to say about any democrat.
Also your use of random caps was cute, is that your way of yelling at me?
Copyleft
May 15th, 2009
10:48 am
To Wyld Byll, our own laws are the greatest enemy of all… because they set limits on what our officials and soldiers are allowed to do in our name.
Federalist
May 15th, 2009
10:49 am
During the two World Wars- These morons would have been shot on the Battle field! Now they’re gonna regroup and come kill you, me and your children and family. Or do you think they’re gonna go get a job and raise their family in a cape-cod house with a white picket fence?
sane jane
May 15th, 2009
10:50 am
“love thine enemy” and “turn the other cheek”… such wussy concepts. Jesus would never get down like that. He won’t stop until all those godless muslins (including our preznit) have their heads lopped off, one and all…
georgian by birth floridian because I'm lucky
May 15th, 2009
10:51 am
Doggone, I assume you are now also cool with Obama extending and re-enacting some of Bush’s Policies toward those held at GITMO?
Sorry Mrs. Godzilla, that was slightly snarky and uncalled for.
@@
May 15th, 2009
10:52 am
jay, if you and your leftist friends keep this up you will defeat…
not the Republican party but…..?????
Since the left has been proven less than intelligent, I’ll leave you and them to wonder what “it” is that you will defeat.
I’m off to check into all things Turkey. I have little patience or sympathy for the leftist gobblers pecking here.
I Report :-)/ You Whine :-(
May 15th, 2009
10:52 am
They also demonstrate why the nation needs a nonpartisan commission to look into the full impact of the decision to strip prisoners of all legal protection.
Well, let’s see, when they chose to “strip” off their uniforms and hide behind women and children they lost their rights under Geneva and so I guess that leaves the US Constitution, which liberals view as a document they can both ignore and misapply.
Oh, and whine about Bush “destroying” it.
Franklin
May 15th, 2009
10:53 am
For all the people defending torture and then saying at the end of their post something like, “God Bless America,” you are insults to real religious people. If God exists, He made us responsible for our actions. You will be accountable for torture if you support it.
sane jane
May 15th, 2009
10:54 am
Federalist, I’m more worried about deranged, mentally-ill, gun-toting white Americans than bin Laden at this point.
WhoCares
May 15th, 2009
10:57 am
Dead Horse meet whip! OMG are we really going to go through this again?
OK, One more time. Raise your hand if you have changed your position on this issue because of anything you have read on this blog today? How about Yesterday? Last week? Tomorrow?
You’d think that after Queen Pelosi stood up there and admitted she knew about it that you Libs would drop it. But no if we keep blowing the Cheney smoke screen maybe everybody will forget what pelosi daid on TV last night.
Bosch
May 15th, 2009
10:57 am
Federalist,
Go take some Xanax – no boogeyman terrorist is coming for you or your family.
I agree with sane jane on this – do you wingnuttys think that just because Nancy Pelosi is supposedly involved that we care less about it? If she is guilty of something, then she needs the same treatment.
But seriously, Nancy as involved as Cheney/Rummie? Yeah, she might could walk into the cells and simply scare them to death with her Botoxed face, but she didn’t authorize torture – I don’t think that for a minute – and if it turns out that knowing about it is a crime, then okay – fine her, put her in jail if it is warranted.
Copyleft
May 15th, 2009
10:58 am
Federalist, you persist in your delusion that this is all due to some bizarre “worry about the welfare of terrorists.” It isn’t.
This is about whether we’re a nation of LAWS and PRINCIPLES, and whether we abide by those even when the chips are down. Too many cowards have already sold out those principles in the name of “keeping us safe.” That needs to STOP.
georgian by birth floridian because I'm lucky
May 15th, 2009
10:59 am
sane jane,
arguments can be made for both sides as to what Jesus would do, it was his father afterall who did take out people by the thousands, considering none to be innocent or unworthy of his rath.
Both of you are picking and choosing, while it is slightly more complex than tha
You are trying to make a simplified version of the Bible, while many of its defenders do the same thing.
Not very tolerant of you to discount others views.
Copyleft
May 15th, 2009
10:59 am
WhoCares: Well, if anyone foolishly believed that torture was legal, or that waterboarding didn’t qualify as torture, the FACTS should have convinced them otherwise.
Whether any of the torture-fans are actually capable of being swayed by facts and logic at this point is, admittedly, another subject….
Andy the Traitor
May 15th, 2009
10:59 am
“Since the left has been proven less than intelligent” says the flat earther…
You can’t make this stuff up… ouch…
ewwww
sane jane
May 15th, 2009
11:01 am
WhoCares:
You might want to recalibrate your Irony-O-Meter. The reason you feel compelled to repeat yourself is probably the same reason other commenters on this blog continue to post their feelings and, yes, repeat themselves.
And are any other lefties discouraged by the notion of Pelosi perp-walking alongside Cheney & everybody else for their complicity in the use of torture? I sure am not.
Progressive Dem
May 15th, 2009
11:01 am
If Cheney urged the use of waterboarding or any other other agressive interrogation technique against an Iraqi military officer, he is probably guilty of violating the Geneva Conventions and subject to charges of War Crimes. This is no enemy combattent, this is a captured enemy soldier, a POW. Cheney will have used torture to build his case that there was a link between the 911 attacks and Iraq. If those are the facts, he is looking at a trial and a conviction.
Mrs. Godzilla
May 15th, 2009
11:02 am
georgia by birth…
actually I think we will see some action on this before 2010, no idea what though.
this is a movement, millions of people, the netroots….we are driving this and there is only one way that this issue goes away. getting to the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.
it makes no difference to us if the suffix is a R or a D.
Andy the Traitor
May 15th, 2009
11:02 am
BTW, please do put Nancy Pelosi away somewhere… she is to Democrats (that care about our country) as Newt Gingrich is to the Wingbutternuts… irrelevant to all but an angry few intent to destroy this country to bolster thier political stance(s).
Much like the wingbutternuts that troll here nonstop….
ewwww
ewwwwww
sane jane
May 15th, 2009
11:07 am
birth georgian / lucky floridian:
I was asking what JESUS would do, not what Old Testament God would do. (and yes, He was a pretty bloodthirsty one. Leviticus is some pretty chilling reading.)
The position Jesus took on violence and one’s posture towards one’s enemies is unmistakable. I’m not trying to simplify ANYTHING; I think he was pretty clear on the matter. Go check out Sermon on the Mount. It’s RADICALLY different from OT God’s disposition.
getalife
May 15th, 2009
11:07 am
Lets face it.
After one attack by a small group of thugs, we tortured, spied on Americans and held goat farmers in Gitmo without a trial then released them.
obl is still out there and we are bogged down in another bloody war in Afganistan, killed millions in Iraq and made Iran stronger.
And you wonder why the world is against us?
Please, we have lost our freaking minds over one attack by a group of thugs.
Man up America and get control over your fear.
Federalist
May 15th, 2009
11:08 am
Bosch,
I’m not paranoid, I just think we will be attacked by these nutballs… I love this country and it’s people, yes,you too! We just need to step up to the plate and get these Morons before they get us,AGAIN!!!
georgian by birth floridian because I'm lucky
May 15th, 2009
11:10 am
Bosch,
I feel alot of people’s problem with the Pelosi thing is that she was going after the Bush admin. and all those around harshly for using torture. Then she has lied,simply by having more than one story, obviously on has to be knowingly false.
Maybe if she had not convicted the prior admin. for torture, she may should not have known about it and not said anything until it was time for re-election.
Do you honestly think any of them, including her, do most of if not all of what they do purely for the purpose of reelection? I am starting to think none of them actually care about making America better they only care about making their career and power better.
If not then why do they change positions so many times and why do things like the Pelosi thing happen, you know where she acts like torture is the worst thing in the world for us americans, only for us to find out that she knew, way before the rest of the nation did, and she did nothing to stop it. Never publically spoke out about it until election time rolled around. WHy you think?
sane jane
May 15th, 2009
11:12 am
Besides, I don’t think lefties EVER try to simplify the bible. That’s a tried and true republican tactic. (”the bible says…”) (whatever I already believe, thus justifying my position)
Lefties, if anything, try to point out how conflicting and contradictory this moribound collection of oral history, firsthand accounts and cautionary tales would seem to be.
Doggone/GA
May 15th, 2009
11:12 am
“odd how even she now calls them EIT’s huh.”
Why? The 2 terms are not mutually exclusive. All torture is an EIT, but not all EITs are torture.
“protecting Nancy, by saying well Bush did it too”
You’re reading things into my statements that aren’t there. The first rule of the playground is: “Tommy did it first” is NOT a valid defense.
“and she knew about it the whole time possibly.”
Knew about WHAT? Was it torture, and she knew about it? That might be argued to make her EQUALLY guilty with those who ordered it and those who did it. If it WASN’T torture, then why does it matter if she knew about it?
“Also your use of random caps was cute, is that your way of yelling at me?
Get over it.