Ali Soufan, a former FBI investigator and interrogator who at one point in his career went undercover as an al Qaida operative, testifies to the Senate Judiciary Committee today from behind a screen, where he cannot be seen or photographed.
The subject is torture.
In his prepared testimony, Soufan lays out an impressive list of accomplishments:
“In my capacity as a FBI Agent, I investigated and supervised highly sensitive and complex international terrorism cases, including the East Africa bombings, the USS Cole bombing, and the events surrounding the attacks of 9/11. I also coordinated both domestic and international counter-terrorism operations on the Joint Terrorist Task Force, FBI New York Office.
I personally interrogated many terrorists we have in our custody and elsewhere, and gained confessions, identified terror operatives, their funding, details of potential plots, and information on how al Qaeda operates, along with other actionable intelligence. Because of these successes, I was the government’s main witness in both of the trials we have had so far in Guantanamo Bay – the trial of Salim Ahmed Hamdan, a driver and bodyguard for Osama Bin Laden, and Ali Hamza Al Bahlul, Bin Laden’s propagandist. In addition I am currently helping the prosecution prepare for upcoming trials of other detainees held in Guantanamo Bay.”
More importantly, Soufan led the initial interrogation of Abu Zubaydah, al Qaida’s “fixer.” In his prepared remarks, he describes what he was able to achieve, what information he was able to draw from Zubaydah very quickly, and what happened when high-level officials in Washington — officials untrained and inexperienced in interrogation — overrode Soufan’s recommendations and insisted that more brutal methods, up to and including waterboarding, be applied to Zubaydah.
“The new techniques did not produce results as Abu Zubaydah shut down and stopped talking. At that time nudity and low-level sleep deprivation (between 24 and 48 hours) was being used. After a few days of getting no information, and after repeated inquiries from DC asking why all of sudden no information was being transmitted (when before there had been a steady stream), we again were given control of the interrogation.
We then returned to using the Informed Interrogation Approach. Within a few hours, Abu Zubaydah again started talking and gave us important actionable intelligence.
This included the details of Jose Padilla, the so-called “dirty bomber.” To remind you of how important this information was viewed at the time, the then-Attorney General, John Ashcroft, held a press conference from Moscow to discuss the news. Other important actionable intelligence was also gained that remains classified.
After a few days, the contractor attempted to once again try his untested theory and he started to re-implementing the harsh techniques. He moved this time further along the force continuum, introducing loud noise and then temperature manipulation.
Throughout this time, my fellow FBI agent and I, along with a top CIA interrogator who was working with us, protested, but we were overruled. I should also note that another colleague, an operational psychologist for the CIA, had left the location because he objected to what was being done.
Again, however, the technique wasn’t working and Abu Zubaydah wasn’t revealing any information, so we were once again brought back in to interrogate him. We found it harder to reengage him this time, because of how the techniques had affected him, but eventually, we succeeded, and he re-engaged again.
Once again the contractor insisted on stepping up the notches of his experiment, and this time he requested the authorization to place Abu Zubaydah in a confinement box, as the next stage in the force continuum. While everything I saw to this point were nowhere near the severity later listed in the memos, the evolution of the contractor’s theory, along with what I had seen till then, struck me as “borderline torture.”
As the Department of Justice IG report released last year states, I protested to my superiors in the FBI and refused to be a part of what was happening. The Director of the FBI, Robert Mueller, a man I deeply respect, agreed passing the message that “we don’t do that,” and I was pulled out.
As you can see from this timeline, many of the claims made in the memos about the success of the enhanced techniques are inaccurate. For example, it is untrue to claim Abu Zubaydah wasn’t cooperating before August 1, 2002. The truth is that we got actionable intelligence from him in the first hour of interrogating him.
In addition, simply by putting together dates cited in the memos with claims made, falsehoods are obvious. For example, it has been claimed that waterboarding got Abu Zubaydah to give up information leading to the capture of Jose Padilla. But that doesn’t add up: Waterboarding wasn’t approved until 1 August 2002 (verbally it was authorized around mid July 2002), and Padilla was arrested in May 2002.
The same goes for KSM’s involvement in 9/11: That was discovered in April 2002, while waterboarding was not introduced until almost three months later. It speaks volumes that the quoted instances of harsh interrogation methods being a success are false.”
Every American interested in the question of torture should read Soufan’s testimony. This is not the macho bluster of a talk show host, or the tortuous rhetoric of an unethical lawyer trying to make the law say something it does not. It is not the self-justifying preening of a former vice president. This is a somber, first-hand, eyewitness account by a man who put his life on the line for his country, a man who knows his business, and a man who was deeply offended as a professional and as an American by what took place. Here is how he closes his remarks:
“In summary, the Informed Interrogation Approach outlined in the Army Field Manual is the most effective, reliable, and speedy approach we have for interrogating terrorists. It is legal and has worked time and again.
It was a mistake to abandon it in favor of harsh interrogation methods that are harmful, shameful, slower, unreliable, ineffective, and play directly into the enemy’s handbook. It was a mistake to abandon an approach that was working and naively replace it with an untested method. It was a mistake to abandon an approach that is based on the cumulative wisdom and successful tradition of our military, intelligence, and law enforcement community, in favor of techniques advocated by contractors with no relevant experience.
The mistake was so costly precisely because the situation was, and remains, too risky to allow someone to experiment with amateurish, Hollywood style interrogation methods- that in reality- taints sources, risks outcomes, ignores the end game, and diminishes our moral high ground in a battle that is impossible to win without first capturing the hearts and minds around the world. It was one of the worst and most harmful decisions made in our efforts against al Qaeda.
For the last seven years, it was not easy objecting to these methods when they had powerful backers. I stood up then for the same reason I’m willing to take on critics now, because I took an oath swearing to protect this great nation. I could not stand by quietly while our country’s safety was endangered and our moral standing damaged.”
Go read it. It ain’t “24;” it ain’t Jack Bauer. This is real life.
164 comments Add your comment
I Report/ You Whine
May 13th, 2009
12:15 pm
So why not release the rest of the memos?
Hmmmmm?
DB, Gwinnettian
May 13th, 2009
12:21 pm
Because the last gang of screwups don’t run things any more, Andy.
any other stupid questions?
md
May 13th, 2009
12:29 pm
I believe it was Obama that made the promise to the people that everything would be transparent. Last I checked, “partial” did not equal “everything”.
DB, Gwinnettian
May 13th, 2009
12:30 pm
Jay, my apologies for the off-topic nature of my first post. (obviously, Andy’s was off-topic–he never read your post, obviously, and he’ll never bother to read the linked piece.)
Anyway, if you do read the linked piece, and to anticipate the usual complaining from the pro-torture crowd, you’ll see this interrogator also concisely detailed what actually works when dealing with detainees.
The Informed Interrogation Approach is based on leveraging our knowledge of the detainee’s culture and mindset, together with using information we already know about him.
The interrogator knows that there are three primary points of influence on the detainee:
First, there is the fear that the detainee feels as a result of his capture and isolation from his support base. People crave human contact, and this is especially true in some cultures more than others. The interrogator turns this knowledge into an advantage by becoming the one person the detainee can talk to and who listens to what he has to say, and uses this to encourage the detainee to open up. In addition, acting in a non-threatening way isn’t how the detainee is trained to expect a U.S. interrogator to act. This adds to the detainee’s confusion and makes him more likely to cooperate.
Second, and connected, there is the need the detainee feels to sustain a position of respect and value to interrogator. As the interrogator is the one person speaking to and listening to the detainee, a relationship is built – and the detainee doesn’t want to jeopardize it. The interrogator capitalizes on this and compels the detainee to give up more information.
And third, there is the impression the detainee has of the evidence against him. The interrogator has to do his or her homework and become an expert in every detail known to the intelligence community about the detainee. The interrogator then uses that knowledge to impress upon the detainee that everything about him is known and that any lie will be easily caught.
This is not the first time I’ve heard this. It seems clear–that’s what produces results. And, sadly, the Cheney/Bush thugs weren’t really interested in them, I don’t think, beyond a producing phony link between Saddam and 9/11.
ty webb
May 13th, 2009
12:34 pm
Come on DB. Why do you not want the rest of the memos released? Shouldn’t we know everything concerning the “last gang of screwups”?
I Report/ You Whine
May 13th, 2009
12:36 pm
DimBulb, Gwinnettian- Why all the venom, self appointed watch puppy?
say what?
May 13th, 2009
12:37 pm
“It ain’t “24;” it ain’t Jack Bauer”
You just better hope he never gets a hold of this article! But seriously, the whole bit about “macho talk show hosts”, “unethical lawyers”, and “preening of a former vice president” just saps all credibility from the argument. We get it lefties, you think all torture is wrong (unless of course princess nancy says it’s okay, but we’re not supposed to know about that one are we?).
The simplest thing to do would be to take every terrorist in gitmo, take them outside, and line them up for a firing squad. Then there would be no more debate, the world could see what should be done to terrorists, and the whole diatribe on torture would no longer be necessary. But that would get in the way of whining now wouldn’t it?
DB, Gwinnettian
May 13th, 2009
12:39 pm
ty, the memos aren’t the topic. Try to keep up.
Paul
May 13th, 2009
12:40 pm
DB Gwinnettian
I’m about to go out for a bit, so I’ll hold off on more detailed posting, but in reference to your response to Report/Whine: Cheney’s laid it on the line and said his methods saved lives. Past CIA directors seem to back this up. The Obama Administration cherry-picking releasing information that supports their position and stonewalling releasing that which might challenge their position looks as manipulative as anything the Bush Administration did.
If Cheney’s wrong, it’d be real easy to prove.
Later -
Bosch
May 13th, 2009
12:41 pm
I saw an interview with some guy a couple weeks back – I can’t remember who it was, but he made a good point – in the real world, there are no ticking time bombs. He even referenced Mr. Bauer and the show ‘24′ as being bad for the American psyche because it makes people think there are.
He also mentioned that not one person in the Bush Administration has gone on record saying that torture produced information that led to saving a life. Not one – which I found pretty interesting.
If you have to waterboard someone 183 times – that takes a long time, so the notion of a ticking time bomb is rather lame if you think about it.
Bosch
May 13th, 2009
12:44 pm
say what?
Don’t you think they should at least be charged with something before executing them in front of the world? Yeah, and due process sucks. Who needs it.
Bosch
May 13th, 2009
12:45 pm
Does anyone but me find it odd that we’ve seen more of Dick Cheney (grunting his merry grunts and scaring little children who happen to pass by the TV) in the past two weeks than the previous eight years?
What’s up with that?
Jigsaw
May 13th, 2009
12:46 pm
It ain’t torture unless you hear that awful high-pitched screaming.
say what?
May 13th, 2009
12:47 pm
“Don’t you think they should at least be charged with something before executing them in front of the world?”
Terrorists are NOT American citizens, they are not guaranteed due process in OUR constitution. I say give them a taste of their own medicine.
ty webb
May 13th, 2009
12:47 pm
Okay, DB. So what a former FBI interrogator calls “borderline torture” is the topic. This has nothing to do with “Bush/Cheney thugs producing a phony link between Saddam and 9/11″. By the way, they never did that.
jewcowboy
May 13th, 2009
12:48 pm
md,
I’ve commented on your inter-species marriage concerns down below if you care to check it out.
jewcowboy
May 13th, 2009
12:49 pm
Bosch,
“If you have to waterboard someone 183 times – that takes a long time, so the notion of a ticking time bomb is rather lame if you think about it.”
They just set snooze on the timer.
RW-(the original)
May 13th, 2009
12:50 pm
And I’d like to interject a note of balance here. There are times when we all get in high dudgeon. We ought to be reasonable about this. I think there are probably very few people in this room or in America who would say that torture should never, ever be used, particularly if thousands of lives are at stake.
Take the hypothetical: If we knew that there was a nuclear bomb hidden in an American city and we believed that some kind of torture, fairly severe maybe, would give us a chance of finding that bomb before it went off, my guess is most Americans and most senators, maybe all, would say, Do what you have to do.
So it’s easy to sit back in the armchair and say that torture can never be used. But when you’re in the foxhole, it’s a very different deal.
Oh my!
I Report :-)/ You Whine :-(
May 13th, 2009
12:50 pm
Paul- I expect to see an idiot yapping response to your reason from DimBulb any moment now.
jewcowboy
May 13th, 2009
12:52 pm
“Ali Soufan, a former FBI investigator and interrogator who at one point in his career went undercover as an al Qaida operative, testifies to the Senate Judiciary Committee today from behind a screen, where he cannot be seen or photographed.”
Just curious, why hide his face if they give out his name? Does anyone know?
Doggone/GA
May 13th, 2009
12:56 pm
“I say give them a taste of their own medicine.”
Got it. Torture is NOT about information, it’s about retribution…whether the person being tortured is guilty or not. Thanks for clearing that up. Now we know EXACTLY where YOU stand.
RW-(the original)
May 13th, 2009
12:56 pm
jewcowboy,
Maybe it’s not his real name, but if he said waterboarding worked the media/Obama administration would give you a map to his house.
Bosch
May 13th, 2009
12:59 pm
say what?
Hmm. Well, that’s something I didn’t know – so if a non-US citizen comes to our country and breaks a crime, they aren’t charged with anything or held in jail? Or given a trial?
LOL! Sorry, for the sarcasm, but your argument is lame, as is the notion of executing prisoners without due process.
jewcowboy,
“They just set snooze on the timer”
Bombs have snooze buttons? Oh, that makes perfect sense now that you put it that way!
DB, Gwinnettian
May 13th, 2009
1:00 pm
ty, I was speculating as to why the torture occurred in the first place. Although there is evidence to suggest that coercing a phony link between saddam and al-Q was, indeed, an order of business.
Must run. Enjoy speculating what that currently-classified bit of alleged toadying re: Cheney might actually accomplish if brought to light; I tend to put a bit more trust in those currently in charge than in those who’d screwed things up. YMMV.
WhoCares
May 13th, 2009
1:05 pm
Just curious, why hide his face if they give out his name? Does anyone know?
Maybe it is his Delta Tau Delta name
md
May 13th, 2009
1:08 pm
jew – responded.
eagle scout
May 13th, 2009
1:09 pm
Bosch…Ain’t it hilarious watching Cheney try to defend the undefensible! He has all of a sudden reared his ugly head from his undisclosed hidey hole to appear on every TV show that will host him.
Watch Larry Wilkerson at the 9:00 minute segment tear Cheney a new one…believe me it’s worth the watch.
http://mgx.com/blogs/2009/05/12/maddow-cheneys-magical-media-tour/
RW-(the original)
May 13th, 2009
1:09 pm
Obama has just changed his mind and adopted Bush’s position to fight the release of detainee “abuse” pictures.
Good, let’s hope he sticks to that decision.
Now about that forest…..
See y’all upstairs for happy hour.
Susan Myers
May 13th, 2009
1:12 pm
Why do I think Ali Soufan won’t be doing any interviews on Fixed Noise?!
Doggone/GA
May 13th, 2009
1:16 pm
“Just curious, why hide his face if they give out his name? Does anyone know?”
Maybe it’s not his real name?
getalife
May 13th, 2009
1:17 pm
They should man up, take their punishment so we can move on.
I doubt they have the guts.
Susan Myers
May 13th, 2009
1:22 pm
eagle scout @ 1:09,
Thanks for the link. Larry’s one of the good guys.
md
May 13th, 2009
1:23 pm
“Maybe it’s not his real name?”
Maybe he’s not real.
How in the world would we ever know? Because the “gov’t” told us?
ty webb
May 13th, 2009
1:25 pm
DB,
nice try. In the link you posted, it says that interrogators tried to find a link between Saddam and Al Qaida. Not Saddam and 9/11 as you claimed. Also the article’s sources are an unnamed former senior US intelligence official and a unnamed former army psychiatrist.
Susan Myers
May 13th, 2009
1:28 pm
It never ceases to amaze me how many people believe “24″ is real. Of course there are a lot of folks who don’t realize The Colbert Report is satire, either.
Bosch
May 13th, 2009
1:29 pm
eagle scout,
Thanks for the link – definitely worth the watch.
That Larry is a hoot!
Midori
May 13th, 2009
1:29 pm
Bosch –
about Cheney’s “torturepalooza tour”:
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/05/13/opinion/13dowd.html?_r=3&adxnnl=1&ref=opinion&adxnnlx=1242212957-iKKu2WnfOFFsy+wNfKcVQw
Bosch
May 13th, 2009
1:30 pm
Susan,
What? ‘24′ isn’t real and The Colbert Report is satire? Hehehehehehe. JK.
Bosch
May 13th, 2009
1:31 pm
Midori!
LOL!!! Torturpalooza Tour! Good one.
George American
May 13th, 2009
1:34 pm
“say what?” gets it right with:
“The simplest thing to do would be to take every terrorist in gitmo, take them outside, and line them up for a firing squad.”
Finally, someone on this blog who “gets it.” You gotta be tough! Terrorist don’t deserve American rights. Bush and Cheney were tough. The Obamatang is a wimp!
I Report :-)/ You Whine :-(
May 13th, 2009
1:38 pm
Ha ha, Pelosi is in the spin cycle.
Susan Myers
May 13th, 2009
1:43 pm
Midori @ 1:29,
Torturepalooza tour! Hysterical! Great link, too.
jewcowboy
May 13th, 2009
1:44 pm
“Maybe it’s not his real name?”
But why make it up? Why not just say Agent X? That even sounds cooler.
julio quintana
May 13th, 2009
1:53 pm
Hey Jay what do you think about the latest report….I guess the President didn’t think about the consequences…now he is backtracking. “WASHINGTON – In a reversal, President Barack Obama is fighting the release of dozens of new photos showing U.S. personnel allegedly abusing prisoners in Iraq and Afghanistan, a White House official said Wednesday.”
WhoCares
May 13th, 2009
1:55 pm
OK….now that we’ve been around this Torture block AGAIN….for the 1000th time. Any more sightings of nekkid Miss California?
Bosch
May 13th, 2009
1:56 pm
Midori,
“Just as Jeb Bush and other Republicans are trying to get kinder and gentler, Cheney has popped out of his dungeon, scary organ music blaring, to carry on his nasty campaign of fear and loathing. The man who never talked is now the man who won’t shut up.”
Hehehehehehehe. Snicker. Snort.
Midori
May 13th, 2009
2:04 pm
she sure has a way with words, huh Bosch
Copyleft
May 13th, 2009
2:07 pm
George American: So we should simply shoot everyone detained at Guantanamo?
How about the guys who’ve already been released because they were innocent? Should we track them back down and shoot them too?
“Say What” has already made the position of the torture fans clear; guilt and innocence are irrelevant, this is all about revenge.
eagle scout
May 13th, 2009
2:07 pm
George American … What’s an Obamatang?
Is that President Obama with an artifical orange drink called Tang….Or is it as I suspect a racial slur? Referring to Obama as an ape which is known for their intelligence…Which you obviously have none!
They are not Orangatangs these wonderful animals are ORANGUTANS..Notice anything different?
jt
May 13th, 2009
2:09 pm
” and what happened when high-level officials in Washington — officials untrained and inexperienced in ______________ ”
FILL IN THE BLANK. Torture.
Healthcare.
Manufacturing.
How can you R & D voters differentiate.?