In my America, gov’t would not proclaim National Day of Prayer
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I’ve written before about the fact that we each have our own Private America, our own individual concept about what America means and how America ought to conduct its business. That’s why the charge that somebody else is “anti-American” or “unAmerican” is not entirely nonsensical, especially if that person’s Private America conflicts with your Private America. And out of that process of millions of Private Americas banging up against each other, we produce something that you might roughly call the Collective America.
In my own private America, in the way I was raised to think about this country and about religion, there’s something deeply distasteful about politicizing prayer, about judging people and politicians based on their eagerness to pray in public. That’s unAmerican, so to speak. In the private America of many religious conservatives, it’s not.
So when Barack Obama decided to mark yesterday as the National Day of Prayer, as other presidents have before him, with a proclamation but no public ceremony at the White House, some conservatives decided to make an issue of it, suggesting that Obama was being disrespectful and downgrading the importance of prayer.
“We are disappointed in the lack of participation by the Obama administration,” said Shirley Dobson, chairwoman of the National Day of Prayer Task Force. “At this time in our country’s history, we would hope our president would recognize more fully the importance of prayer.” Dobson is the wife of James Dobson, founder of Focus on the Family.
An anonymous White House officials defended Obama’s action, saying that “President Obama is a committed Christian and believes that we should be engaging Americans of faith in efforts to renew our country. He is following the tradition of Presidents Reagan, George H.W. Bush and others by signing a proclamation honoring the National Day of Prayer, while continuing to work with communities of faith to improve our country.”
In my Private America, even that goes too far. The president should not have to defend his faith to anybody, nor should anyone else. There’s also Scripture in Matthew that advocates private rather than public prayer, because those who pray in public are generally hypocrites trying to advertise their piety for secular gain.
The wisest discussion I’ve seen of the issue comes from Steven Waldman at Beliefnet, who writes that he has mixed feelings about a National Prayer Day:
“But having spent a couple of years now looking at the Founding Fathers and religion, my views have shifted. I now fear that while public prayer is supposed to ennoble politicians, it may just politicize, and therefore taint, prayer. Instead of uplifting politics, it downgrades religion.
The Founders were divided on this. Washington and Adams both issued prayer proclamations that went considerably farther than what Reagan (and Harry Truman) had done.
But Jefferson and Madison stopped the practice. Jefferson seemed worried about prayer proclamations violating the First Amendment. Madison did, too, but added another argument: it wasn’t good for religion. By offering prayer in a political context (including asking for prayers related to specific policy goals) Madison said prayer proclamations had politicized a solemn act “to the scandal of religion as well as the increase of party animosities.”
In describing why he resisted prayer proclamations, Madison said, “They seem to imply and certainly nourish the erroneous idea of a national religion,” he wrote. If Americans want to band together to pray, he said, they should do so but to bring about such prayer or gathering through the political process was “doubly wrong.” Madison reported that he had received many private letters urging him to follow the pattern of Adams and Washington, prompting him to fear that Americans “have lost sight of the quality of all religious sects in the eye of the Constitution.”
In other words, the private America of Madison and Jefferson conflicted with that of Washington and Adams.
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391 comments Add your comment
I Report :-)/ You Whine :-(
May 8th, 2009
8:10 am
It is the call of all Christians to witness their faith to the unsaved, what a perfect way to do it by focusing the secular world on the importance of prayer for one day, but Obozo wants no part of all that “nonsense,” I guess because he must not be a Christian.
Well, he is a “Christian” of political opportunity only.
DB, Gwinnettian
May 8th, 2009
8:16 am
It is the call of all Christians to witness their faith to the unsaved
Do it on your own time then. Not the gubmint’s.
Copyleft
May 8th, 2009
8:16 am
How about a National Day of Doubt to balance it out? The secular folks could spend it proselytizing everybody about the importance of logic and rational thought, and poking holes in all the superstitions people blindly embrace.
SuperDave
May 8th, 2009
8:18 am
Oh jeez, Jay
You done went and got him started.
Hey Whiner, why don’t we just go ahead and get it over with and have our government outlaw all other faiths except Christianity. That would be some great “witnessing” wouldn’t it?
Paul
May 8th, 2009
8:18 am
I guess I’m about as keen to hear politicians talk about prayer as I am to hear ministers talk about politics.
[[Shirley Dobson, chairwoman of the National Day of Prayer Task Force.]] So there’s the recurrent theme: person has a job, position of power in a big organization. Money and power can’t be threatened. Sigh.
Had a case here in Texas, groups brought suit against a school where the student body elected one student to offer a prayer before every football game (interesting concept….). Couple of denominations sided with the group bringing suit: Catholics and Mormons. Said it was a decidedly Baptist prayer. How does one really make anything ‘nondenominational?” I wondered if the Baptists would have sued if the girl who got elected had begun “O Mighty Odin….”
But thanks, Jay, for pointing out that our Founding Fathers weren’t in agreement on everything. Sounds obvious, but we’re regularly treated to those who begin “the Founding Fathers were not Christians, they were….” So even within the ranks there were differences of opinion.
But to me the key item in all this is: we have a President who’s quite the religious Christian. Talked about it on the campaign trail. Laces his speeches with it. That’s fine, rather like walking the talk. But it’s not the same walk as some of the other prayerful folk want him to walk.
Which is why I’m okay with what he’s doing on this issue.
Mrs. Godzilla
May 8th, 2009
8:19 am
It is the PRESUMED call of SOME christians to “witness” their faith all over everybody else.
Get a room…..ooops a I mean get a church.
SomaliDawg
May 8th, 2009
8:20 am
همهٔ افراد بشر آزاد به دنیا میآیند و از دید حیثیت Bookmanهمهٔ افراد بشر آزاد به دنیا میآیند و از دید حیثیت JT دید GENIUS.
Redneck Convertهم برابرند، همه دارای mountain oysters.
برابر یکدیگر با روح برادری رفتار Gerogian by Birthحقوق با هم برابرند، همه دارای اندیشه The Village People. HaHaHa.
Mike
May 8th, 2009
8:24 am
Off topic, but I find it amusing that the liberal media, which is so in love with the torture storyline is failing to report the story about the CIA revealing that Pelosi was aware of the program all along:
“Intelligence officials released documents this evening saying that House Speaker Nancy Pelosi (D-Calif.) was briefed in September 2002 about the use of harsh interrogation tactics against al-Qaeda prisoners, seemingly contradicting her repeated statements over the past 18 months that she was never told that these techniques were actually being used.”
http://voices.washingtonpost.com/capitol-briefing/2009/05/cia_says_pelosi_was_briefed_on.html
The lack of notice of this story from the media demonstrates that they care a lot less about torture than they do about bashing Republicans.
I’m looking forward to seeing Jay calling for Pelosi’s head. Riiigghht
Paul
May 8th, 2009
8:26 am
DB, Gwinnettian
I’ve a few friends who are fed gov’t employees. They tell me the Prayer Breakfast is early, before their normal work day. Don’t know if that’s the same in all agencies, but it sounds proper.
OFFTOPIC
Followup thought on our discussion a few weeks back, especially in light of the Miss California broohaha (you know, the Miss USA contestant who gave Pres Obama’s answer on gay marriage….). It’ll never happen, of course, but it seems to me if ‘marriage’ is, in our society, laced with all kinds of religious themes (any other area where the gov’t recognizes a ceremony performed by a minister of religion?) – well, let the union entered into by those who are joined by a minister be called ‘marriage.’ Those who go the civil route – same sex, other sex – call that ‘civil union.’ Let the law provide the same rights and responsibilities for both. If a church wants to perform ceremonies for same sex couples, fine and dandy. It’s their theology. They’re married. If a hetersexual couple doesn’t want to go the religion route and get married in the Vegas courthouse, they have a civil union – it was performed by civil authorities. Let the churches perform their ceremonies, let the gov’t perform theirs, let the couples perform their obligations.
Just a thought -
John
May 8th, 2009
8:29 am
What can it hurt? Pagans appease their gods if they have offended them. If there is a God that we need help and mercy from, should we as a nation try to get right with Him and show our dependence. The truth is the Almighty does exist and although He is loving and kind, and gracious, He is also holy, righteous and just. We need His mercy and grace extended to us through His Son Jesus Christ.
John
May 8th, 2009
8:31 am
“There’s also Scripture in Matthew that advocates private rather than public prayer, because those who pray in public are generally hypocrites trying to advertise their piety for secular gain.”
You mean like Obama praying at the Wailing Wall in Jerusalem during his campaign? Or maybe Obama attending church for 20 years in Chicago?
SomaliDawg
May 8th, 2009
8:35 am
حقوق با هم برابرند، همه دارای اندیشه و وجدان
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bOrSqDwaUkc
Goldie
May 8th, 2009
8:42 am
Religion is a private matter and has no business being involved with governing… unless, of course, those churches who preach politics from the pulpit will give up their tax exempt status and pay like other political entities do. Our Founding Fathers were specific about keeping religion out of our government functions, otherwise we’d be living under conditions like what the Taliban has in mind for governing…
Mrs. Godzilla
May 8th, 2009
8:42 am
Mike
You really should read more left wing blogs. Many of us knew about the briefing years ago….
here’s an old piece about it….note the date
Congress Briefed on Waterboarding in 2002
By Nicole Belle Saturday Dec 08, 2007 9:30am
read it here:
http://crooksandliars.com/2007/12/09/congress-briefed-on-waterboarding-in-2002/
it contains links to the original Washington Post article
I Report :-)/ You Whine :-(
May 8th, 2009
8:45 am
Hey Whiner, why don’t we just go ahead and get it over with and have our government outlaw all other faiths except Christianity. That would be some great “witnessing” wouldn’t it?
DimBulb, Gwinnettian, That wouldn’t be very Christian of us, now would it?
You seem to have us confused with the religion of “peace,” we do not behead nor do we persecute those of faiths other than ours.
You know, like you liberals do to Christians.
Tolerance, moron, try it sometime.
Joey
May 8th, 2009
8:45 am
Jay and I rarely agree and when we do it usually regards specific points rather than the issue. This is one of those.
My Christian friends do not require a National Day of Prayer. They do, however, deserve a National Day of Prayer.
What causes are worthy of a National Day in the Obama Administration? What causes will result in President Obama observing a National Day?
I have confidence that, regardless of Obama’s choices, Jay will be out front leading the defense of those decisions, whether they need defending or not.
RW-(the original)
May 8th, 2009
8:46 am
So why couldn’t Obama just say it was none of our business instead of farming that message out to his lackeys in the media?
An anonymous White House officials How many officials is an An?
Joey
May 8th, 2009
8:46 am
Copyleft: I responded to your Baptist-torture question in that posting this morning.
Del
May 8th, 2009
8:46 am
Obama is not black – he is gray. He says one thing but his actions depict something else. Why in the world would a christian deviate from national prayer ? Is America so dumb to believe the propaganda that comes from news agency that Obama is a christian ? He is a muslim . . .no doubt about it.
GayGrayGeek
May 8th, 2009
8:46 am
Paul @ 8:26 – You mean, split the civil and religious parts of the “joining ceremony”? Like they do in most of Europe? Big Scary FEAR! FEAR! FEAR! Scary Europe that has the AJC’s new In-House WingNut Kyle peeing in his pants?
Yeah, I could definitely go for that. My hubby and I were married at the Canadian equivalent of city hall, by a justice of the peace, so we could obtain the civil privileges offered by our marriage.
Any church that claims that such a split is “forcing” them to do anything is just looking for a cover for their own discrimination.
Paul
May 8th, 2009
8:47 am
Mrs. Godzilla
I believe the difference is Spkr Pelosi has maintained all along she was told of techniques (when she’s talking about what she heard, she never, ever uses the word ‘torture’ even if it’s the same practices she calls torture when applied to the Bush Administration) – she says she was told of techniques that might be used in the future. She maintains she was never told they had been used.
The memos released last night indicate she was told what was being done to Abu Zubaydah.
So very weary.....
May 8th, 2009
8:49 am
I’m Catholic. I went to church to pray yesterday. It did not make my prayers any less meaningful because the President didn’t pray in public to grab more media attention.
SomaliDawg
May 8th, 2009
8:49 am
یکدیگر با روح برادری رفتار pornیکدیگر با روح برادری رفتار
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iKRtHkQRkCg&feature=related
Tom
May 8th, 2009
8:52 am
These weak would-be Christian hatemongers forever lift some convenient babble from some deep place in the Bible and sieze upon it in order to demonstrate they are “following in the footsteps of Geesussah.”
Doesn’t work anymore, folks. Jesus would both weep and vomit at the sights and words of you.
SuperDave
May 8th, 2009
8:52 am
Paul at 8:26
The marriage/civil union idea I think is great. Ya think they’ll go for it? Not!
The only thing I’ll say on this topic is this:
You can tell the real Christians not by what they say, but by what they do when no one is watching.
Have a good day all.
lovelyliz
May 8th, 2009
8:53 am
“(But) take care not to perform righteous deeds in order that people may see them; otherwise, you will have no recompense from your heavenly Father.
When you give alms, do not blow a trumpet before you, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets to win the praise of others. Amen, I say to you, they have received their reward.
But when you give alms, do not let your left hand know what your right is doing, so that your almsgiving may be secret. And your Father who sees in secret will repay you.
“When you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, who love to stand and pray in the synagogues and on street corners so that others may see them. Amen, I say to you, they have received their reward.
But when you pray, go to your inner room, close the door, and pray to your Father in secret. And your Father who sees in secret will repay you.
jon
May 8th, 2009
8:55 am
Mrs. G,
We all knew about Nancy Pants-on-Fire being briefed about enhanced interrogation. The story is her recent denials.
I think Obama was correct in ignoring the National Day of Pretension, however I suspect he would have acted differently if it were October 2012.
Taxpayer
May 8th, 2009
8:56 am
Or, Gov. Sonny preying on the people of Georgia. If there were a God, Sonny would have been, at the very least, dumped on by a toilet flush from a low-flying C5-A.
We would do better with Conan the Barbarian as our deity. He talked soft and carried a big stick instead of the Dubya approach of big talk backed up by a little Dick — If I could only get them to de-classify these other documents, I could prove that I’m right, torture works. Too bad Conan was not born in America.
Mrs. Godzilla
May 8th, 2009
8:58 am
Paul….Jon…..
DUH….Many of us have been asking those same questions (again) for years…
SuperDave
May 8th, 2009
8:58 am
Whiner at 8:45
Who are you responding to?
You having brain fart again?
I’ll say it again:
You are an embarrassment to Christianity.
Last time I checked, the Bible doesn’t say liberals can’t be Christian.
Go…..Oh your are so not worth it.
Cherokee
May 8th, 2009
9:00 am
“It is the call of all Christians to witness their faith to the unsaved”
This from Mr. GFY – how’s that witness working for you, whiner?
Thanks Liz, you beat me to it. Jesus was surrounded by the Pharisees, who loved to loudly proclaim their special place in God’s eyes. Today’s “public prayer” types, like the Pharisees, have received their reward on earth.
Redneck Convert
May 8th, 2009
9:01 am
Well, I’m all for making people follow a National Day of Prayer. Baptist prayer. And make sure it ends with IN JESUS’ NAME so we can rub it in to Jews and other heathens. We’re the majority so what we say goes. I never expected this Obama to do it. He’s a Muslim so of course he don’t want to pray to the only true God. Our God, not Allah or some heathen God.
The founding fathers give us freedom of religion, not freedom from religion.
And tell this SomaliDawg he can kiss my hind end with his wisecracks. Have a good Friday everybody. And be sure to pray real loud before you stick it to them. That’s the Christian way.
SuperDave
May 8th, 2009
9:01 am
lovelyliz @ 8:53
AMEN Sister!!!
Paul
May 8th, 2009
9:07 am
Mrs. G 8:58
Asking ‘what’ for years?
Again, in the past, Spkr Pelosi said she was briefed only on plans, possibilities, not what had been done.
Nat’s securty memos released yesterday say she was briefed ‘these are the techniques we used on Zubaydah. This is how we tortured him.”
I wonder… I wonder… if this is correct, did Spkr Pelosi earlier demonstrate a ‘willful intent to deceive”?
Mike
May 8th, 2009
9:09 am
Mrs. G:
“You really should read more left wing blogs. Many of us knew about the briefing years ago….”
I try to avoid liberal blogs. This one is about all I can take
I also limit my conservative blogs to one: Newsbusters.org
I agree with the previous posters that the story is about her denials being proven false. My question is why the media who has been obsessed with torture is just flat out ignoring this story that definitely would have been a scandal if a Republican congressman was involved, let alone the Speaker of the House.
Mike
May 8th, 2009
9:10 am
Tom –
“These weak would-be Christian hatemongers forever lift some convenient babble from some deep place in the Bible and sieze upon it in order to demonstrate they are “following in the footsteps of Geesussah.”
Doesn’t work anymore, folks. Jesus would both weep and vomit at the sights and words of you.”
And you aren’t a hatemonger? It’s bad enough that you are a bigot, but you are also a hypocrite.
jasper
May 8th, 2009
9:11 am
Jay,
This is really a non-issue, establishment media is going to report any and all criticisms to O, and characterize the critics as far right extremeists. In this case you are actually right.
I’m just relieved that he’s not observing the day kneeling on a mat toward the East, at least not in public.
Newt des großen Kopfs
May 8th, 2009
9:14 am
Newt/Palin ‘12
I Report :-)/ You Whine :-(
May 8th, 2009
9:14 am
<i.SuperDave May 8th, 2009 8:58 am Whiner at 8:45 Who are you responding to? You having brain fart again?
Aahhh, yes, our totally helpless liberal friends, they ask for assistance as though I am the government-
I Report
/ You Whine 
May 8th, 2009 8:45 am ~~~~~~~~~~~DimBulb, Gwinnettian,~~~~~~~~~~~~That wouldn’t be very Christian of us, now would it?
~~~~~
Hear the Word of God, heathens-
Matthew 10.33. But he that shall deny me before men, I will also deny him before my Father who is in heaven
It’s like, duuuhhhhhhhh.
bozos
Mr. Snarky
May 8th, 2009
9:14 am
“It is the call of all Christians to witness their faith to the unsaved, ”
Last time I checked, the Constitution makes no mention of saving souls.
Mrs. Godzilla
May 8th, 2009
9:17 am
DUH….again, we have been asking what she and steny and jane etc knew…..not just about techniques but application….
BDAtlanta
May 8th, 2009
9:25 am
You seem to have us confused with the religion of “peace,” we do not behead nor do we persecute those of faiths other than ours. You know, like you liberals do to Christians. Tolerance, moron, try it sometime.
That might be the dumbest thing I’ve ever read. Some people see themselves as they want to be seen, not as they really are. They just can’t handle reality.
Whiner, open a history book sometime and turn off the Fox News.
jasper
May 8th, 2009
9:28 am
Mrs. G,
Semantics, shemantics, right? I’m sure she was preoccupied during these briefings deciding which military aircraft to take back to CA.
The good news is that inasmuch as this has become a liberal witch hunt, now you have an actual witch.
Mike
May 8th, 2009
9:29 am
Mr. Snarky –
“Last time I checked, the Constitution makes no mention of saving souls.”
It also makes no reference to anything about Black History Month. What is your point?
It is absurd that folks are so offended by this. Supporters of same-sex marriage often asks who would be hurt by it. Well,he is being hurt by a Day of National Prayer?
Mike
May 8th, 2009
9:32 am
BD –
“Some people see themselves as they want to be seen, not as they really are.”
I guess your point is that, despite their own views of themselves, Christians are intolerant? Some certainly are, but no more so than any other group. As Tom’s hate speech at 8:52 demonstrates, you don’t have to be a Christian to be intolerant.
ty webb
May 8th, 2009
9:33 am
Mr. Snarky,
So we can take this to mean you’re a strict constitutionalist?
GayGrayGeek
May 8th, 2009
9:36 am
Mrs. G – You obviously Just Don’t Get It. If the WingNuts hadn’t bothered to ask (or even think of) the questions, it’s impossible that any of us with functioning neurons could have done so beforehand.
After all, per the WingNuts, if Faux News hasn’t “thought” of something then it positively, absolutely could NOT have previously been thought of by anyone else. ANYONE else.
C’mon, Mrs. G – Get. With. The. Program.
Mrs. Godzilla
May 8th, 2009
9:37 am
jasper….yep they were tough times.
nancy worrying about planes, george clearing brush and cheney cleaning his shot gun.
Jodi
May 8th, 2009
9:38 am
2 Chronicles 7:14 “If my people, who are called by my name, will humble themselves and pray and seek my pace and turn from their wicked ways, then will I hear from heaven and will forgive their sin and will heal their land.” 2 Chronicles 7:21-22 “Why has the Lord done such a thing to this land….People will answer, ‘Because they have forsaken the Lord, the God of their fathers, who brought them out of Egypt, and have embraced other gods, worshiping and serving them —that is why he brought all this disaster on them.’ ”
Welcome to “your” America! Death, destruction, debauchery, demoralization…….an Obamanation! Just wait…….one day!
Mike
May 8th, 2009
9:39 am
BD –
GayGrayGeek’s latest comments demonstrate that any group has intolerant members.
Peadawg
May 8th, 2009
9:42 am
I guess Obama isn’t a Christian like he proclaimed all throughout his campaign. Just another lie coming out of an empty suit. I’ve lost count how many times he’s gone against what he said in his campaign. just another politician that will do anything to get elected, then go against his word once he’s voted in.
Taxpayer
May 8th, 2009
9:43 am
Well, once you have one National Whatever Day, it is only appropriate to have a National Whatever Day for whatever. National Non-Prayer Day, National Worship a Deity Day, National Pray to the all mighty Buck Day, etc. Heck, there might even be one blogger that would want a National Urinal Day. It just would not be right to be wrong and deny everyone their day.
Mrs. Godzilla
May 8th, 2009
9:47 am
Peadawg
So you agree that Reagan and Bush 41 were empty suits because they handled the national day of prayer just as President Obama did?
You agree that Bush 41 and Reagan weren’t christian because they didn’t
have formalprograms at the white house?
Mrs. Godzilla
May 8th, 2009
9:47 am
GGG
I just love it when you correct me!
Kamchak
May 8th, 2009
9:48 am
Taxpayer
Conan was the brain child of Robert E Howard, a Texan, so technically Conan is a U.S. citizen, but I get your drift–Conan is Cimmerian.
I wanted to respond to a point you made down thread @ 9:24 yesterday a.m. about health care and issues being reduced to a chant. Politico has reported on a memo generated by Frank Luntz providing conservative talking-points on health care reform among them:
“It could lead to the government setting standards for care, instead of doctors who really know what’s best.”
“It could lead to the government rationing care, making people stand in line and denying treatment like they do in other countries with national health care.”
“President Obama wants to put the Washington bureaucrats in charge of health care. I want to put the medical professionals in charge, and I want patients as equal partners.”
and my personal favorite–
“Waiting to buy a car or even a house won’t kill you. But waiting for the health care you need-could. Delayed care is denied care.”
Brad Steel
May 8th, 2009
9:50 am
Not pandering to the Dobson crowd and the prayer nazis!
Keep up the good work, Mr. President.
Bookman writes: “…those who pray in public are generally hypocrites trying to advertise their piety for secular gain.”
Well-stated, Jay
this topic could fall under: WWJD – what wouldn’t jesus do?
Mrs. Godzilla
May 8th, 2009
9:50 am
National Wiccan Beltane day?
Taxpayer
May 8th, 2009
9:51 am
Newt could make a mint off of a Prey Here, Prey Now slogan. Oh wait. Never mind. He already does. He just does it in private, like a good little Christian.
ty webb
May 8th, 2009
9:51 am
Mike,
No their intolerance is “truth”. Fox news is “Faux News” yet MSNBC is also “truth”.
Peadawg
May 8th, 2009
9:54 am
Mrs. Godzilla,
They didn’t make a HUGE deal about being Christian like Obama did. Why hide your faith? What was Reagan, Bush, and now Obama afraid of? The amount of lies and contradictions that Obama has made is just getting rediculous.
I will do away with earmarks. Then sign $410 billion worth of them.
I will do away with wasteful spending. We all know how that’s turned out.
I will create more jobs. Then lays off 2000 people that were in the F-22 project.
I am a Christian! But, i’m afraid of praying in public and showing my faith.
.
.
.
.
AmVet
May 8th, 2009
9:54 am
Meghan McCain’s favorite Republiconner (or is it Kreepy Karl?), Dickhead speaks!
Talk about not being able to let go gracefully! This clown has his mug in the news as much now as he did when he was screwing up everything in sight.
So to all of you who think the GOP could benefit by changing, I’ve got bad news:
“I think it would be a mistake for us to moderate,” Cheney said. “This is about fundamental beliefs and values and ideas … what the role of government should be in our society, and our commitment to the Constitution and constitutional principles. You know, when you add all those things up, the idea that we ought to moderate basically means we ought to fundamentally change our philosophy. I for one am not prepared to do that, and I think most of us aren’t…..
Cheney did, however, say it was probably time for his fellow Republicans to shove him off the stage. “I think periodically we have to go through one these sessions. It helps clear away some of the underbrush … some of the older folks who’ve been around a long time — like yours truly — need to move on and make room for that young talent that’s coming along,” he said.
Stuck on stupid.
Which portends another electoral asswhipping for the neo-conned in 18 months…
Taxpayer
May 8th, 2009
9:55 am
Kamchak,
I was also playing off of Arnold’s movie role as Conan. He cannot be our nation’s leader since he was not born here. However, I think that if he were to join the evangelical movement and be born again while on US soil, that should be proof enough.
George American
May 8th, 2009
9:56 am
I look forward to the day when the non-praying liberals join their friends in hell.
Peadawg
May 8th, 2009
9:57 am
Jay, why wasn’t my response to Godzilla posted? I didn’t say anything wrong…what word got me?
Bosch
May 8th, 2009
9:58 am
I think my earlier post was dropped. Testing 1.2.3. Testing. Roger and wilco – over and out.
Bosch
May 8th, 2009
9:58 am
Peadawg,
It’s not Jay – it’s the system. Calm down – the liberal media isn’t trying to censure you.
Jay
May 8th, 2009
10:00 am
Dawg, I have no idea. Our spam filter works in strange, mysterious ways. But I’ve gone in and freed it.
Mike
May 8th, 2009
10:01 am
Taxpayer seems to not understand that we already do have a plethora of randoms national “Days”, be they commemorations of prominent Americans, Labor Day, or Arbor Day.
I am sure if there were a large number of people who wanted to honor urinals, we would have a National Urinal Day.
Peadawg
May 8th, 2009
10:01 am
nevermind, it got posted
. Usually it does it right away. Sorry!!!
I thought Jay screens all these…didn’t know they go through a filter program.
Mike
May 8th, 2009
10:01 am
Jay –
Looking forward to your condemnation of Nancy Pelosi for facilitating waterboarding.
Bosch
May 8th, 2009
10:02 am
Obama probably didn’t do anything public because he didn’t want to be seen with the Dobsons. I can certainly understand that.
I totally agree with the sentiments here that prayer and religion are private.
Taxpayer
May 8th, 2009
10:02 am
I look forward to the day when the non-praying liberals join their friends in hell.
Uhhhhh. Exactly, how does that work.
Peadawg
May 8th, 2009
10:04 am
“I totally agree with the sentiments here that prayer and religion are private”
I honestly could care less about who knows I’m a Christian. I pray before I eat a meal, whether it’s in my own home, or at Chili’s. I guess it depends on the person, but imo, you shouldn’t be afraid to show your faith.
@@
May 8th, 2009
10:04 am
Private rather than public prayer, jay?
Matthew 5:15 — Neither do men light a candle, and put it under a bushel, but on a candlestick; and it giveth light unto all that are in the house.
Perez Hilton’s recent rant diminishes the gay community but yet, he’s all the rage (literally) of leftists.
Taxpayer
May 8th, 2009
10:04 am
Well, of course I do not ‘understand’ nanny. That’s why you are here — to explain these things. Dumbass.
Mike
May 8th, 2009
10:04 am
Bosch –
“I totally agree with the sentiments here that prayer and religion are private.”
Fair enough, but that would have put a pretty big crimp in both the abolitionist and the civil rights movement.
Bosch
May 8th, 2009
10:04 am
Taxpayer,
I’ve been pondering that sentence as well. I wonder if that includes non-Christians who pray to some other deity – if so, hell will be rather crowded, don’t you think – and probably alot more fun.
Ray
May 8th, 2009
10:05 am
I was in a Huey bringing back some severely wounded in Nam when our main engine started acting up over some very hostile territory. We were about 1000 ft off the ground when it happened and pretty far from the hospital. Being a government employee, a Major in the US Army, I felt at that time that a pretty urgent prayer was in order to try to encourage that engine to sustain itself so that the 6 or so people on that aircraft could make it home. Guess it did the trick because here I am writing this post. I am sure I am not the only government employee in that conflict who thought that a prayer was in order from time to time. Why do we have military chaplains who risk their lives, many times unarmed, who become part of combat units, trying to supply a little comfort to someone who sorely needs it at the time…… all government employees praying with soldiers. The first thing that a wounded soldier wanted when hit and brought to our hospital was for us to call his mother …. the next thing was a chaplain.
albert rogers
May 8th, 2009
10:06 am
Public prayer was condemned by Jesus of Nazareth himself, as reported in the Gospel of Matthew. It was the practice of the “scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites” and in the opinion of Jesus, they did it purely for show.
Taxpayer
May 8th, 2009
10:07 am
Light a candle under a bushel of the right stuff though and you can light up your life. Now, that’s some good stuff.
Bosch
May 8th, 2009
10:08 am
Peadawg,
Well of course you shouldn’t be afraid to show your faith – just don’t get offended when people don’t follow suit.
I’ve never had a problem with WHAT people believe or how they practice – it’s the folks that have a problem with mine and feel the need to tell me about their problem with my beliefs – and tell me I’m wrong. As if they know – and if you think you know – you are putting yourself in the position of God – which, to me, is a big no no.
N.J,
May 8th, 2009
10:09 am
Washington did make serveral comments about religion being more of a private affair than a public one, and by the end of his presidency wrote some thoughts about it;
“Religious controversies are always productive of more acrimony and irreconcilable hatreds than those which spring from any other cause. Of all the animosities which have existed among mankind, those which are caused by the difference of sentiments in religion appear to be the most inveterate and distressing, and ought most to be depreciated. I was in hopes that the enlightened and liberal policy, which has marked the present age, would at least have reconciled Christians of every denomination so far that we should never again see the religious disputes carried to such a pitch as to endanger the peace of society.”
– letter to Edward Newenham, 1792
Franklin is well known to have been a confirmed Deist, and just a month before his death wrote:
About March 1, 1790, he wrote the following in a letter to Ezra Stiles, president of Yale, who had asked him his views on religion. His answer would indicate that he remained a Deist, not a Christian, to the end:
As to Jesus of Nazareth, my Opinion of whom you particularly desire, I think the System of Morals and his Religion, as he left them to us, the best the world ever saw or is likely to see; but I apprehend it has received various corrupt changes, and I have, with most of the present Dissenters in England, some Doubts as to his divinity; tho’ it is a question I do not dogmatize upon, having never studied it, and I think it needless to busy myself with it now, when I expect soon an Opportunity of knowing the Truth with less Trouble….” (Carl Van Doren. Benjamin Franklin. New York: The Viking Press, 1938, p. 777.)
He died a little over a month later on April 17.
Though Franklin put forth a motion to have a clergyman come into each session of Congress, after about five weeks of debatate, the motion was voted down.
The founders themselves may not have been athiests, but by all accords, te vast majority of them were not what would be defined as “Christians” as they were all non- trinitarian in their denominations, and denied the deity of Christ. They were more or less silent about their denial of Christ being the “Son of God” because they lived in an age that was more inclined to polite behavior in public. Washington was approached by the minister of the church he did attend, largely because it was the church his wife attended and the result was:
Washington had the inestimable faculty of being able to say nothing. He said nothing about religion — nothing very definite — and as a deist was willing to let people think whatever they pleased. As he never discussed religion at all, and went to church only occasionally, he was considered by most people to be a quietly religious man. It was somewhat of a shock, therefore, to the people of Philadelphia, when the reverend Dr. Abercrombie, Washington’s pastor, criticised him from the pulpit. He told him that as President, he should not belong to a church unless he could set a good example to others. He reminded Washington that he never took communion, and in short, that his example was bad.
Washington listened to these reproaches in silence, and never went to that church again. His only comment was that he did not wish to annoy Dr. Abercrombie by his presence.
And while many note that the Declaration of independence does mention a creator, the Constitution does not, and in the writings of the founders, the name of Jesus is rarely, if ever mentioned, except to criticize the beliefs that the Christians of their own day held. In short, the founders had no doubt as to the wisdom of Jesus as a man, as well as the moral philosophy that he developed, but by and large, they beleived that tales of miracles were superstition, and that the idea of the divinity of Christ, and salvation by faith alone, were later add ons by the followers of Christ attempting to make his basically jewish moral philosophy more palatable to the Greek citizen of the day, who practiced a revived version of the ideas of Plato, called neo-Platonism.
Washington’s was the most silent founder on the issue of religion, but his letter noted above would indicate that he was rather uncomfortable with all the dispute with regard to religion that existed in his time, as well as ours, and most certainly would be the first to object to all the current necessity for politicians to profess their religion before anyone will vote for them. They would have considered this to be a violation of the principal they placed in the constitution of “not requiring a religious test” for people to be elected to office or appointed to them. They applied this test not only to government, but to the electorate itself. They often asserted that the public should not make an issue of whether a person in office or running for it held to one religion or other, one denomination or other, or held no belief at all.
Jodi
May 8th, 2009
10:11 am
George at 9:56, a more tactful way to state your case….
Philippians 2:9-11 “Therefore God exalted him to the highest place and gave him the name that is above every name, that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.” NIV footnote states: “At the last judgement even those who are condemned will recognize Jesus’ authority and right to rule. People can choose to regard Jesus as Lord now as a step of willing and loving commitment, or be forced to acknowledge him as Lord when he returns. Christ may return at any moment. Are you prepared to meet him??”
Maranatha! Just wait……..one day!! One day you will get your wish and the separation you choose and desire.
Taxpayer
May 8th, 2009
10:11 am
Bosch,
I think you are on to something. What if those that pray to the all mighty buck were to sin and not be forgiven by their equivalent of ‘Jesus’ (which might be the Euro or Yen, perhaps?). Where would they be damned to live for all eternity. A cash-free society?
George American
May 8th, 2009
10:12 am
It’s this simple: if you don’t believe in Jesus and pray to him, like most liberals, you go to hell.
BDAtlanta
May 8th, 2009
10:12 am
Mike, the Muslims, the Hindus, the Budhists, and all the other religion variants aren’t pushing their beliefs on the rest of us. They aren’t trying to post their stone inscriptions in our govt buildings and common areas. They aren’t trying to get our kids to sing their hymns and recite their tracts in public school classrooms.
Religion is a very personal thing and it should be kept to oneself. Those who need to share it and hang reminders all over the place are just insecure in their beliefs.
getalife
May 8th, 2009
10:13 am
Keeping religion private and out of politics is working very well for the President.
Did they come and get the private again?
eagle scout
May 8th, 2009
10:13 am
Ray…Main engine on a Huey? There is only one engine on a Huey….
As far as prayer goes…Whatever floats ones boat. As usual the rightwing lunatics need an issue!
Peadawg
May 8th, 2009
10:15 am
Bosch, I’m not offended, per se, that’s just how I was raised.
If Obama is a fellow Christian, he shouldn’t be afraid to show it.
I guess me and him(him and I? I hated grammar class) can agree to disagree.
Mrs. Norris
May 8th, 2009
10:16 am
Now the sheeple need the government to tell them when to pray.
Bosch
May 8th, 2009
10:16 am
Taxpayer,
LOL!! Yeah, I think so.
George,
Oh, well, that explains alot.
Jodi,
No offense, but when Jesus comes back – I really rather hope that you and I are not in the same pack.
RW-(the original)
May 8th, 2009
10:16 am
Peadawg,
It probably wasn’t a word that sent your comment to the spam box the first time around, it was more than likely the dots you used to create additional space at the bottom of the comment. Wordpress doesn’t like that very much.
skeptic
May 8th, 2009
10:17 am
The reason for the First Amendment, the reason that the Founders of the USA wished to keep religion and State separate, is the utterly dismal record of “religious” governments before them.
But for us moderns, it is maybe even more important to see that, as the devout Spinoza observed, that asking God to interfere with his own Laws of Nature is absurd, superstitious, and heathen.
Or as John Mortimer’s Rumpole put it, mere “God-bothering”.
Bosch
May 8th, 2009
10:18 am
Peadawg,
He’s not afraid to show it. He goes to church. He does his own thing. It’s just different than what you do – it doesn’t mean your way is right and his is wrong.
Ray
May 8th, 2009
10:18 am
Eagle scout,
Meant to say “the engine”. Sorry ’bout that.
N.J,
May 8th, 2009
10:19 am
I am afraid it was Jimmy Carter who started all the big to do about religion and his personal Christian beliefs, which Carter seems to live out better than the majority of the politicians who followed him. Carter mentioned this in passing and did not make a great fuss over it, but as Carter came from virtually nowhere in national politics (Jimmy Who?) to win the presidency, it seemed to get votes, and every politician after him seemed to make a big issue of saying they were “Born Again”. The way Carter said it was very natural, he did not make a big deal out of it and in fact almost asserted that it would not have a great effect over how he governed those of other beliefs or none at all.
As soon as I heard the same thing stated in every other election afterwords, I noticed how false and forced it sounded coming out of the mouths of every other politician after him. For Carter this was simply an aside, something personal and not anything that for him,at least, had anything to do with running for office.
But ever since, it has become a pre-requisite, a public test for public office. I doubt any presidential aspirant who said, I am a deist, or I am a Buddhist, or I dont beleive at all, would stand a chance of winning the nomination, much less the presidency, and this is something the founders clearly would have disagreed with.
williebkind
May 8th, 2009
10:21 am
Didnt y’all get the memo? The liberal democratic congress is going to filibuster “HELL”.
mike
May 8th, 2009
10:22 am
BD –
“Mike, the Muslims, the Hindus, the Budhists, and all the other religion variants aren’t pushing their beliefs on the rest of us.”
Most Americans are “pushing their beliefs” in one way or another.For example many secualr liberals try to push universal health care as “the right thing to do” and demonize those who oppose it as being “uncaring about poor people”.
“They aren’t trying to post their stone inscriptions in our govt buildings and common areas.”
These are isolated incidents and regardless, who are these stone inscriptions hurting?
“They aren’t trying to get our kids to sing their hymns and recite their tracts in public school classrooms.”
I’m not familar with this happening. Can you point to some examples?
Again, if religion was forced to be a private matter, the abolitionist and civil rights movements never would have gotten off the ground.
Peadawg
May 8th, 2009
10:23 am
Thanks RW for the tip.
Taxpayer
May 8th, 2009
10:24 am
It’s this simple: if you don’t believe in Jesus and pray to him, like most liberals, you go to hell.
Who’s hell? And, more importantly, whose definition of hell.