When lawyers torture the law
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In columns, blog posts and occasional speaking engagements, I’ve argued against prosecution of Bush administration officials who were involved in trying to legitimize or carry out illegal torture. It would compound our hypocrisy to try to create scapegoats for a practice that we all knew was going on and that many Americans supported. In 2004, after all, we re-elected the administration that was responsible.
Many liberals have found that a difficult message to accept. But I see that author Naomi Wolf, writing at the Huffington Post, is taking a similar position, warning that “we may be about to make an egregious error”:
“Today Republicans accused Democrats in Congress of having “blood on your hands too” in relation to the escalating calls to investigate. I would like to say that this is exactly right.
I will go further: not only do congressional Democrats have “blood on their hands” — but so do we, the American people. And CIA agents may be about to be sacrificed to assuage their, and our, guilt.
Today’s suddenly urgent calls by our congressional Democratic leaders, and even by many of the American people, to prosecute CIA operatives, military men and women and contractors who were certainly involved with, colluded in or turned a blind eye to torture are not only the height of hypocrisy, they are a form of unconscionable scapegoating. The scapegoating is political on the part of congressional leaders, and psychological on the part of many Americans who are now “shocked, shocked” at what was done in their name.
Hello, America? Hello? Were you asleep for the past seven years? The fact that the Bush administration used torture for the past seven years has been the furthest thing from a secret. When the political winds were with the last administration, which framed qualms about torture as being soft on “the war on terror,” just about every congressional Democrat fell right into line to accept it, if not cheer it on. Even Hillary Clinton supported torture, right up through her presidential run. Nancy Pelosi was briefed on the torture in closed-door meetings. When activist groups and citizens called for a special prosecutor, all we heard from congressional Democrats was that they did not wish to spend the political capital.”
Amen amen amen.
In the latest turn of the story, the Washington Post just put up a fascinating story about furious behind-the-scenes lobbying at the Justice Department involving the controversial “torture memos” that argued torture wasn’t really torture.
The documents, recently released by order of President Obama, were so poorly reasoned that the Bush administration itself in time repudiated them. And sometime in the next few months, the Justice Department’s Office of Professional Responsibility is expected to release the results of its investigation into whether those memos were honest — if honestly wrong — arguments about the state of the law regarding torture, or whether the lawyers who wrote them knew the memos were wrong as they wrote them. According to the Post:
“A draft report of more than 200 pages, prepared in January before Bush’s departure, recommends disciplinary action by state bar associations against two former department attorneys in the Office of Legal Counsel who might have committed misconduct in preparing and signing the so-called torture memos. State bar associations have the power to suspend a lawyer’s license to practice or impose other penalties….
Two of the authors, Jay S. Bybee, now a federal appeals court judge in Nevada, and John C. Yoo, now a law professor in Southern California, faced a deadline of yesterday to respond to investigators….
If attorneys paid by taxpayers to help keep government operations within the confines of the law instead wrote knowingly bogus opinions to assist in breaking the law, they ought to pay the appropriate professional price for that behavior. No jail time, no prosecution.
But also no law license, and no lifetime appointment to the federal judiciary.
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205 comments Add your comment
md
May 5th, 2009
4:34 pm
Well, it can be argued that even the Supremes make it up as they go, so what is the point???
Bosch
May 5th, 2009
4:37 pm
Yeah, now everybody’s like “What? We were torturing?” Please.
After some reflective thought on the matter, I used to be on the fence about this, but then after reading more about it and listening to interviews I’m convinced that everyone who supports torture thinks that life is like the show “24″ and there is always five or six terrorists seconds away from blowing up something – which isn’t true.
Good police work and intelligence is what has prevented further attacks.
And we should get this dirty laundry aired out in our country.
Bosch
May 5th, 2009
4:38 pm
And I know this is about the “law” of the matter, and I agree with Jay’s last comment.
Brad Steal
May 5th, 2009
4:38 pm
Although it is a very legitimate beef against an illegal policy, the outcome will yield little if anything.
Let Dick Cheney, Karl Rove and the neocon chubbies ride the horse-of-indignation. They are welcome to all of the Whitewater and Vice Foster investigations their crumbling party wants.
We have bigger problems.
Mrs. Godzilla
May 5th, 2009
4:41 pm
Jay, I just don’t know.
I understand your point and am a huge fan of Naomi’s, but to say
absolutely no way to prosecution this early in the “discovery” phase
may be as large a problem as saying prosecute them all.
Let’s see what else comes out of Pandora’s box before we make any
decisions.
Joey
May 5th, 2009
4:42 pm
In the imortal words (well almost in the same words) of many of the posters here: Please Democrats. Please don’t stop. Please keep on pursuing prosecution. Please. Pretty please. Arrest Cheney. Give him that Perp walk that you know will finally get you off.
Hillbilly Deluxe
May 5th, 2009
4:43 pm
Survival and self-preservation is the most basic human instinct. If, God forbid, President Obama should find himself in the same position after an attack, he’d do the same thing. When humans think their survival, whether personal or as a nation, is in question, they’ll do whatever it takes.
getalife
May 5th, 2009
4:49 pm
cons do not want accountability for government.
Unless it is a dem that breaks the law.
Pathetic.
RW-(the original)
May 5th, 2009
4:50 pm
How about when “journalists” torture the law by constantly misrepresenting the US code? You may not like what the law actually says but the way to change that is to petition the government to change it not just constantly write that it says something it doesn’t.
AmVet
May 5th, 2009
4:52 pm
The party of personal responsibility.
What a joke.
But no one’s laughing.
Except at the polls…
ty webb
May 5th, 2009
4:55 pm
Let the “faux outrage” commence. It’s been awhile since Jay gave his echo chamber some red meat.
getalife
May 5th, 2009
4:55 pm
Condi was telling the truth when she used the Nixon,” it is not illegal if the President does it.”
Unless you are President Clinton .
They will get pardoned.
georgian by birth floridian because I'm lucky
May 5th, 2009
4:56 pm
getalife,
correct statement but what is truely sad is the same exact thing could be said only switching the location of cons and dem.
They both do it but some seem only to mention one side or another as being guilty of it, only furthering the never ending cycle.
Guess some people just don’t like things to change.
N-GA
May 5th, 2009
4:57 pm
If these individuals are not prosecuted, aren’t we telling government officials that there are no consequences for wrongdoing? We always seem to go after government officials from other countries who violate the law. Just look at Saddam Hussein and his cohorts. How about Noriega? So now we selectively go after criminals? Who gets to decide?
I guess that must be the message that we want to send to the rest of the world. Kinda like the message we sent about Lt. William Calley….you know, the jeweler down in Fort Lauderdale.
getalife
May 5th, 2009
5:00 pm
gators suk,
True, so I guess we can stop with that nobody is above the law, nation of laws and all men are created equal crap.
Taxpayer
May 5th, 2009
5:01 pm
…What was a party of responsibility and conservatism has evolved into a mob of religious fundamentalists, bigots, liars, and angry people who seem to have a need to blame everyone but themselves and the elected officials that they supported over the last eight years for the many huge problems that now confront our nation and its leaders — problems that didn’t exist eight years ago but which have brought us to our knees over the last year.
Instead of taking a look in the mirror, these self-centered blowhards have blamed everyone but themselves for the colossal mistakes, lies, and fiscal irresponsibility that characterized the period they were in complete control of all federal branches of government.
Instead of figuring out where they went wrong and what to do to fix things, they have just become filled with rage. They have morphed from a responsible political party to a cult of scary and angry people. I’m not talking about all Republicans. I’m just talking about the people who have taken over leadership of the party and seem to be calling all the shots. If they continue on this path, they’ll be the only ones left.
If I weren’t so furious, I might help them figure out how to deal with their rage. Thankfully, none of them have asked. I might just rip their stupid heads off.
Rip their stupid heads off! Now, that might just be characterized as torture.
ty webb
May 5th, 2009
5:03 pm
“Blood on their hands”? Shouldn’t it be “WATER on their hands?
georgian by birth floridian because I'm lucky
May 5th, 2009
5:05 pm
getalife,
still a dawg fan just live by the beach now.
To your comment any who have actually believed that have been living with blinders on for some time now.
Not even speaking of politics, what would happen to any of us if we did what some hollywood celebrity types or heireses(sp) do?
I just think that we are a country that should proclaim every dollar is created equal instead of man being equal.
DoggoneGA
May 5th, 2009
5:09 pm
Sorry Jay, but on this I vehemently disagree.
We weren’t ALL complicit in sacntioning torture. There are, and were, a LOT of us who were LIVID that such things were happening…but when you don’t have any power you also don’t have any control.
Those in power and those in control, from top to bottom, should be investigated and if the evidence warrants it, prosecuted and if found guilty they should receive the appropriate punishment under the laws banning torture.
Any person claiming to be normal knows what is and what is not torture and NO ONE should be able to get away with “I was only doing what I was ordered to do” – we put Germans in jail for that one, we should put Americans in jail for it too.
md
May 5th, 2009
5:18 pm
“but when you don’t have any power you also don’t have any control.”
Actually, we have a vote, and many in congress that sanctioned the torture are still there. It just depended on what party one was voting for as to whether they were guilty or not. It seems as if all incumbents voting in favor should be out of a job, how come they are not??
Bill White
May 5th, 2009
5:29 pm
We need all of the tools necessary when an enemy combatant is being held on our soil. The Bush Administration opened up Gitmo and treated these evildoer thugs with dignity and respect. I’ll point out that it’s your far left friend Michael Moore who said that Gitmo prisoners received top quality health care! Now, you liberal secular progressives are crying that the Bush Administration abused them?! What’s it going to be? You all don’t get it. Those anti-American terrorists want to kill us, yet we feed, clothe, give them medicine and justice. What do we get in return? They murder. They maim. They behead! What’s wrong with you, Bookman and you naïve Jimmy Carter-loving liberals? Did you see that interview with the Taliban spokesman? Didn’t that put the fear of God in you all? I’m sorry, but we might one day be growing long beards and women might be wearing burquas (sp) right here on our soil. I cannot believe that Obama is coddling the enemies and dictators. They only speak with weapons. Don’t be so naïve, Jay.
john
May 5th, 2009
5:29 pm
Nice. Major internation law and domestic laws were broken. The Red Cross said torture happened.
King Jordan mentioned that the Middle East is waiting to see if America is about the rule of law. If not, let the difficulties become harsher.
This is not just about a few people (Prez) that got afraid and did something that 40 years frmo now, the USA will be ashamed about.
It is about the law. It is like saying I did not commit murder (yes, there were at least 2 deaths), since there is an after life.
So, does America and your arguments have the guts to be American?
GayGrayGeek
May 5th, 2009
5:32 pm
md – Because too many Georgians believe that anyone without an “-R” after their name is a manifestation of the Anti-Christ. Just read the replies here and over in WootenWorld, and you’ll see what I mean.
And, of course, since most Republican’t’s give at least lip service to Saint Ronnie Of The Bonzo’s “11th Commandment”, no one will ever challenge any of those “-R” incumbents, even in a primary. QED,.
GayGrayGeek
May 5th, 2009
5:34 pm
Oh, and speaking of incumbency, more Republican’t’s are eating their own…
john
May 5th, 2009
5:35 pm
PS: Every single Armed Services IG said what happened was agianst their laws and guidlelines. That is every single one. And I believe that the Armed Services has convicted over 400 cases of abuse. And every single one of the Armes Services wants (is forced to by the courts) to release around 2000 pictures showing some of what happened.
Mike
May 5th, 2009
5:37 pm
1. You assume the legitimacy of the phrase “illegal torture”. The interrogations at Guantanamo were neither illegal nor were they torture under any “untortured” definition of the term.
2. The Democrat tendency to try to turn political policy decisions into criminal prosecutions is a gross distortion of our legal system and our government. It will have negative long-term consequences for all of us.
I Report :-) / You Whine :-(
May 5th, 2009
5:38 pm
But also no law license, and no lifetime appointment to the federal judiciary.
When the House Intelligence Committee did their oversight duties in 2002, they too also “formed an opinion,” bookman.
Shall we boot them from the government too?
Remember, children, the very day that Obozo released only the memos that served his treasonous purposes, I said that he had sprung a steel trap of idiocy upon hisself and his whole entire corrupted and sick political party.
Once again, I was right.
So now the Marxists have figured out that the public spectacle of show trials and “truth” commissions will snare their stupid as-ses too, it only took these geniuses about a month or so to put two and two together, and we can’t have that S&^%, can we?
So look at these spineless wonder kowards, as they have some low level political appointee do their wormy bidding for them, big brave defenders of the killers of innocent Americans, won’t even put their fat noisy as-ses where their mealy little mouths are at.
pukes.
Release the rest of the memos, candy pants, so the American people will know that democrats are upset because Bush stopped more of their fellow citizens from being killed.
Skeered, are we?
AmVet
May 5th, 2009
5:40 pm
It is well established that the previous administration tried their damnedest to bankrupt the US Treasury by not just turning a blind eye to the corporate destruction of capitalism but aiding and abetting the criminals on Wall Street.
That these neo-cons are equally morally bankrupt is fitting.
What a disgraceful example for the “leaders” of the free world.
They should be resting comfortably in an 8 by 12…
md
May 5th, 2009
6:02 pm
amvet,
Senate bill s 190 voted down along party lines by the democrats.
If you are going to rant about wall st., etc, you would be wise to blame all involved. Blaming one side only diminishes your credibility.
md
May 5th, 2009
6:04 pm
ggg,
I believe incumbents applied to “R’s” and “D’s”. If you are blaming only one side, again you must be part of the problem.
Cherokee
May 5th, 2009
6:05 pm
I don’t agree Jay – doggone is correct. There were many of us who protested, who worked to elect a Dem in 2004, who wrote letters and blogs… and we were called traitors and worse by the likes of Andy and his myrmidons.
“Americans” aren’t responsible, only those who voted for and supported the last administration. And many of those, like Andy, loudly and proudly proclaim their self righteousness, while supporting torture, and illegal wars, and all the garbage of the past 8 years.
md
May 5th, 2009
6:09 pm
So Cherokee, are you now on record against Obama and his forays into a soverign Pakistan and the illegal killing of Pakistani civilians??
Or is it OK because his name is not Bush?
Just curious.
ty webb
May 5th, 2009
6:16 pm
illegal wars? so tired.
GayGrayGeek
May 5th, 2009
6:28 pm
md – I was speaking only of Georgia. You know, that word Georgians in my first sentence?
AmVet
May 5th, 2009
6:44 pm
md.
Where have I ever said the Democrats were not complicit?
The final 8 year seige by BushCo was only the straw that broke the camel’s back.
And the trail of crooks in both the “free market” and in government is very, very long. Going back to Clinton and the Congressional Republicans who passed the Graham Leach Bliley Act that broke the firewall and safety mechanisms between the securities, banking and insurance industries. And of course, even before that.
There are a huge number of bribed and culpable politicians in both parties as wellas countless others who turned a blind eye.
Bush merely accelerated the collapse by cutting back on the SEC’s corporate investigation and policing arm, which was already undermanned and underfunded, immediately after getting into office.
This after he promised in his campaign to “clean up Wall Street”.
And undeniably the Republicans controlled the White House, Congress and Federal Reserve during the greatest period of criminality.
I have also excoriated President Obama for NOT seeking widespread prosecutions for these cover ups, conflicts of interest, deceptive practices and selling phony paper. Nor is he going to seek economic justice for the American people who were locked out of the closed door “hearings” last September.
That many still don’t even believe their was any culpability is a sure sign of how duped people can be.
Are you one of those who favors giving the crooks and swindlers, along with their co-conspirators in government a free pass?
I Report :-) / You Whine :-(
May 5th, 2009
6:47 pm
If you hired an investment professional and he could preserve more of your money in a financial disaster, but instead he decided to spend it on the UAW so you could “share in the sacrifice”, you would not be happy.
Let’s quickly review a few side issues.
The President’s attempted diktat takes money from bondholders and gives it to a labor union that delivers money and votes for him. Why is he not calling on his party to “sacrifice” some campaign contributions, and votes, for the greater good? Shaking down lenders for the benefit of political donors is recycled corruption and ~~~~~~~~abuse of power.~~~~~~~~~-Cliff Asness, managing partner at AQR Capital Management
Ha ha ha, this is still America you wormy little punks.
md
May 5th, 2009
6:55 pm
“Are you one of those who favors giving the crooks and swindlers, along with their co-conspirators in government a free pass?”
Absolutely not. I’m in favor of cleaning out DC and starting anew, and no lawyers or politicians need apply. Our original “politicians” were sent to DC to represent Us, and in the process turned it into a life long “job”. Then the parties hijacked the process and its been a sparring match ever since. The deficit could be reduced with campaigtn money alone, what a waste.
Its time for the “people” to go back to Washington.
Tank
May 5th, 2009
6:55 pm
Real torture is spending two years in Clayton county selling capital equipment and watching the citizenry elect inept, corrupt leaders; watching the Clayton county BOE lose it’s accreditation and bring in a clown at an outrageous compensation package.
I’m sorry, but all you liberal bloggers raise Cain about “torture,” but say and do nothing about the raping and pillaging of your Democratic led communities.
You guys are a hoot. Nothing but HYPE and CHAINS.
md
May 5th, 2009
7:01 pm
ggg,
“md – I was speaking only of Georgia. You know, that word Georgians in my first sentence?”
“md – Because too many Georgians believe that anyone without an “-R”……”
“Because” usually is in response to a question which in my post refered to Congress. Last I checked, there is no congress in Georgia, hence the post.
AmVet
May 5th, 2009
7:04 pm
md,
Then you may one of a few I’ve ever found here who would be interested in a concept called Participatory Democracy.
After all as Cicero noted, ““Freedom is participation in power.”
“The people can never willfully betray their own interests, but they may possibly be betrayed by the representatives of the people.” – The Federalist No. 63
Trust by Americans in nearly all institutions of power—with some temporary rallies now and then, to be sure, as after 9/11—has been in decline for nearly half a century.
Today Americans rate Congress, the Presidency, the courts, politics in general, the press, corporations, and both the Democratic and Republican Parties at levels lower than during most of Watergate.
In a political system choking on bipartisan corruption, in the midst of an incumbent-ocracy protection racket, there are only two stark alternatives:
We can trust the same parties and the same institutions to reform themselves, to bring change where they have promised it for decades, and not delivered.
Or we can take matters into our own hands, reform the system, and reclaim our rights to legislate. It is in our name, after all – “we the people”—that the powers of the constitution itself are delegated.
The way it works is pretty simple.
Whenever there’s an issue people feel strongly about—health care, the war in Iraq, election laws—people can force a national vote on a proposal for change.
Sponsors – who could be any number of citizens—simply gather, under enabling procedures, enough signatures to show that the idea has some reasonable level of support, and the matter is placed on the national agenda.
In some cases, Congress, seeing that there is going to be a vote on this matter anyway, may actually get off the dime and seek to enact the law without even having to have a national vote.
If Congress doesn’t act, however—or if it enacts an outrageous law that people want to reverse—then a sufficient petition drive will automatically bring about a national debate and a direct national vote by the people –- if the petition is successful.
This already happens in nearly half the states, and in several dozen countries for particular questions. The system is used to the greatest extent in Switzerland—which is widely respected for its excellence in democratic governance.
Switzerland has been praised as such by observers as diverse as Tocqueville, Bryce, and, in contemporary times, Ron Paul, Bill Bradley, and Ronald Reagan.
Switzerland is rightly termed, by Senator Mike Gravel, “the greatest democratic republic” in the history of the world.
What would this proposal do?
Several things.
First, it would break the national logjam on many issues that have never been resolved—some of them over decades—and which tend not to be resolved by the self-interested incumbents of both parties.
Furthermore, it would take significant power out of the hands of lobbyists, White House aides, network television executives, congressional committee chairmen, and other particular elites—and spread it over the American people.
One way of viewing it is, there would be a new check and balance—and a spur—added to our three branches of government.
The National Initiative would give Americans the kind of effective choice and participation in decision-making that we enjoy in most spheres of our lives – purchasing our own food, renting a hotel room, bidding on Ebay—but not, paradoxically, in our own political system.
If you like Senator Obama’s policy on the war, but Senator McCain’s position on taxes, or you like Mr. Nader’s healthcare plan but not some of his other proposals, you no longer have to choose to swallow one bitter pill or another.
You can elect the persons you believe have the highest character, and then support and oppose them on particular issues as they arise.
Flowing from this—from the fact that each American, as one writer has put it, would now “be, in some sense, a member of Congress”—we would see a revival and renaissance of citizenship and citizen activism not seen, sadly, in many decades.
Having power—having a check on their political elites—having a reason to be active and informed—Americans would be active and informed.
In general, when Americans are given choices and have the power to make decisions, they are highly responsible and informed.
I Report :-) / You Whine :-(
May 5th, 2009
7:06 pm
Gee, let me guess what bookman will be moaning about next-
WASHINGTON, May 5 (Reuters) – Embattled insurer American International Group (AIG.N) paid some $454 million in previously undisclosed performance bonuses to employees for 2008, the company said in answers to questions from a U.S. lawmaker that released on Tuesday.
Oh, wait a minute, democrats approved those bonuses, maybe bookman will remain silent.
He is a good little toady, after all.
Susan Myers
May 5th, 2009
7:11 pm
How can we expect the average citizen to respect the rule of law when the government doesn’t?
If we don’t prosecute Bush and his cronies then we do not respect the rule of law.
booger
May 5th, 2009
7:16 pm
Taxpayer,
I am a conservative and I am none of the things you mentioned. Appears Jay’s outrage column yesterday has spilled over into the comrads of the liberal branch.
Anyway, if you want to rip my head off, I live just up the road in the mountains. I invite you up to give it your best shot. I’ll be waiting on the front porch.
booger
May 5th, 2009
7:19 pm
Susan Myers,
Since you are a rule of law type, I guess you are for prosecution of illegal aliens.
md
May 5th, 2009
7:20 pm
Well susan, the problem is how far will it go. If you take that road, then all members of congress that knew what was going on were also complicit in the act. And since washington is a den of secrets, there are probably many involved that we don’t even know about yet.
The serpents in the den are in protection mode, and the serpents reside in both parties.
md
May 5th, 2009
7:22 pm
booger,
No, they don’t like that law, so it doesn’t apply. Its only the laws they agree with that count. Get with the program
.
Susan Myers
May 5th, 2009
7:29 pm
nose booger @ 7:19,
I am for sending illegals back home. I am for prosecuting to the fullest extent of the law employers who hire them to work. If illegals knew there would be no jobs for them in the U.S., most of them would stay home. I
Taxpayer
May 5th, 2009
7:32 pm
I flick better boogers than you. Now, do yourself a favor and click the link. Afterward, feel free to pull that big wad out of your mouth right after that foot that you used to pack it in with.
booger
May 5th, 2009
7:36 pm
susan myers,
However, they still broke the law. And this is a law with no gray areas.
To clarify, I am not for prosecution of these folks either, but I also would be opposed to prosecution of CIA operatives, or admin officials with laws which are nothing more than gray areas.
ty webb
May 5th, 2009
7:38 pm
Susan,
Is that you? Your 7:29 was spoken like one of those “angry”,”racist”,”xenophobic” conservatives. Kudos, I couldn’t agree more.
booger
May 5th, 2009
7:44 pm
Taxpayer,
Did you say flick or lick?
Susan Myers
May 5th, 2009
7:44 pm
nose booger @ 7:36,
On the contrary – I see gray where illegals are concerned. I do not see gray where Bush and his torture “program”, etc. is concerned.
booger
May 5th, 2009
7:47 pm
Susan Myers,
You may see gray, but the law is crystal clear. md was right. you are only for the rule of law if it’s a law you like.
ty webb
May 5th, 2009
7:49 pm
And then she lost me.
Taxpayer
May 5th, 2009
7:52 pm
booger, clearly I should have told you not to re-insert said wad and foot upon removal. Then again, you ‘conservatives’ do tend to be a little slow. Is it something in the water, the fish, both. Hg maybe. It’s not your fault, you know. It came from gold mining and coal mining and coal burning and it accumulated in the drinking water and in the fish. Please, remember to check the DNR and follow the guidelines regarding consumption of the local fish. Do it for your children.
Susan Myers
May 5th, 2009
7:55 pm
ty webb @ 7:38,
I know many liberals with the same stance as mine. There’s nothing angry, racist, or xenophobic about it. We have many friends and relatives who came to this country legally. We think for ourselves. We don’t have to have someone – such as Limbaugh, Hannity, etc. to tell us how to think. You should get out more.
AmVet
May 5th, 2009
7:57 pm
Taxpayer, for what it’s worth, I see NOTHING in that info at 5:01 that I would disagree with.
The Party of Personal Irresponsibility…
Steve
May 5th, 2009
8:04 pm
I believe that over time, if early reports are borne out, that it will be found that the Bush/Cheney Administration used torture not out of some desperate desire to stave off another 911, but out of their need to find some evidence, no matter how tainted, that Al Qaida and Saddam Hussein were allies, thus justifying our invasion and occupation of Iraq. From what I’ve read, intelligence professionals are pretty much in agreement that “enhanced interrogation” only gets the subject to lie to stop the pain. In the real world the Jack Bauers of “24″ would find very little that is useful, but they would end up leading us into many blind alleys.
booger
May 5th, 2009
8:06 pm
Actually I have lived in Conn., Mass, NY, London and Paris. So you see I have tasted many waters, none sweeter however than mountain water. Since You did not answer the posed question I’m going with “lick”.
ty webb
May 5th, 2009
8:08 pm
susan,
my point being, that when a conservative makes the same statement you made previously, those labels are attached to them. Many were labeled that way on this very blog a couple of days ago.
Susan Myers
May 5th, 2009
8:08 pm
nose booger @ 7:47,
Only a very few situations are black and white, cut and dried. The Bush and Co. torture system is one of those. We are the United States of America, we do not torture. Period.
Now go back to your chewin’ and spittin’.
Ray
May 5th, 2009
8:12 pm
Amvet,
Your 7:04 post has some very good ideas. Don’t agree with most of what you post but this one is an exception.
DB, Gwinnettian
May 5th, 2009
8:14 pm
Shorter Naomi and Jay–”You weren’t hardcore enough back in the day, so now you have to suck it.”
Nice.
md
May 5th, 2009
8:15 pm
We are the United States of America, we kill babies by golly, and Pakistani civilians, but we don’t torture.
ByteMe
May 5th, 2009
8:15 pm
It looks like the formal prosecution of CIA agents and contractors who followed orders based on these so-called “legal” opinions will not be pursued.
However, there’s that little matter of the CIA Director of Ops destroying documentation/tapes of the torture sessions at the same time a judge had an active open request for those documents/tapes pending and the D-Ops had been told by CIA lawyers not to destroy the tapes. He might not get off scot free with obstruction of justice.
Susan Myers
May 5th, 2009
8:16 pm
ty webb @ 8:08,
Please show me on this blog where someone posted what I posted at 7:29. Please show me where they were called angry, racist and xenophobic for doing so.
ByteMe
May 5th, 2009
8:17 pm
BTW, I didn’t say that Congress wouldn’t muster some faux outrage and hold public hearings over it. And I’d expect anyone truly involved with it will decline to answer questions unless granted immunity. So we’ll get lots of heat and no light.
Susan Myers
May 5th, 2009
8:19 pm
md @ 8:15,
-we kill babies by golly-
Remember, you pick and choose.
ty webb
May 5th, 2009
8:22 pm
Susan,
I’m not going back through all the comments of the past week. You can take my word or not. I was agreeing with you earlier. I thought we might share some common ground. Sorry. I guess we can go back to disagreeing now.
AmVet
May 5th, 2009
8:24 pm
Thanks, Ray.
My bark is much worse than my bite
AmVet
May 5th, 2009
8:26 pm
Keep ‘em in stitches, wherever you are Dom DeLuise…
Frederick Douglass
May 5th, 2009
8:26 pm
Hype and chains, hope and change, doesn’t really matter, the guy in the Oval office is doing a helluva job. I can feel the tide turning, no thanks to the Imperial Wizards out there flappig their gums.
md
May 5th, 2009
8:26 pm
Yes susan, I pick and choose trying to save lives. Too bad you can’t say the same thing. There is a big difference between choosing life and being OK with erasing it.
booger
May 5th, 2009
8:28 pm
Susan Myers,
However, it was you who invoked the rule of law.
Mike
May 5th, 2009
8:29 pm
Ray –
Please don’t give AmVet credit for doing anything more than cutting and pasting other people’s words and passing them off as his own:
http://www.votenader.org/issues/national-initiative/
It was clear that the writing was not AmVet as it made sense and didn’t involve juvenile name calling.
Susan Myers
May 5th, 2009
8:29 pm
ty webb @ 8:22,
You wouldn’t find it if you did look, because it’s not there. I can take your word or not, huh? Guess which one I pick?
Mike
May 5th, 2009
8:30 pm
AmVet –
“My bark is much worse than my bite”
And the writing of others that you shamelessly take credit for is much better than your own.
ty webb
May 5th, 2009
8:31 pm
Imperial Wizards?… Oh yeah Robert Byrd.
Mike
May 5th, 2009
8:32 pm
Susan Myers –
“Remember, you pick and choose”
Well it seems that md is picking and choosing to inflict violence on guilty people and you support inflicting violence on innocents.
Susan Myers
May 5th, 2009
8:33 pm
md @ 8:26,
-I pick and choose trying to save lives.- Real big of you.
md
May 5th, 2009
8:34 pm
Frederick – why do you insist on reducing everything to race? You seem to be part of the problem with your constant accusations, where in truth, you seem to be more of a racist than those you accuse.
Susan Myers
May 5th, 2009
8:35 pm
Mikey @ 8:32,
You should probably not ASSume so much.
Mike
May 5th, 2009
8:36 pm
Susan Myers –
“Real big of you.”
And your mindless partisan braying about torture is the sign of the true big folks? Please.
md –
“Frederick – why do you insist on reducing everything to race? ”
Simple. Frederick is among the few outright racists on this blog.
ty webb
May 5th, 2009
8:37 pm
Susan,
Ok. Then I take back my compliment, so there.
md
May 5th, 2009
8:38 pm
Mike,
She doesn’t see it that way. She has a definition formed in her head that allows her to justify the torture of innocents and a different definition that forbids torture to anyone else.
Mike
May 5th, 2009
8:41 pm
Susan Myers –
“You should probably not ASSume so much.”
No assumption there at all.
You bray regularly about the waterboarding of three folks about whose guilt nobody debates, yet support the killing of innocent Pakistanis who have the misfortune of standing near untried terrorism suspects.
Hence, md is picking and choosing to inflict violence on guilty people and you support inflicting violence on innocents.
Of course, if it was a Democrat who did the waterboarding, you wouldn’t care at all. For example, you have no problem with Clinton using extraordinary rendition to send untried terrorism suspects to countries who we knew would torture them.
Your morality starts and ends with mindless partisanship.
Ray
May 5th, 2009
8:42 pm
Mike,
Many thanks. Whoever wrote it…. great article.
Mike
May 5th, 2009
8:43 pm
md –
“She has a definition formed in her head that allows her to justify the torture of innocents and a different definition that forbids torture to anyone else.”
Yes, her definition is “anything done by a Republican is unacceptable and anything done by a Democrat is acceptable.”
Mike
May 5th, 2009
8:44 pm
Ray –
Looks like someone from the Ralph Nader campaign wrote it before AmVet –
1) Copied it
2) Pasted it
3) Claimed it as his own work
godless heathen
May 5th, 2009
8:47 pm
How about the USofA being known as the country that you don’t f*ck with?
I Report :-) / You Whine :-(
May 5th, 2009
8:52 pm
The libs are so concerned about the supposed torture of the innocents that they will pursue justice to the ends of the Earth, they will leave no rock unturned, they will right all wrongs, quick, into your phone booth for a costume change, bookman, oh wait, hold up, this rampage for the truth just might snare some democrats.
Never mind.
Does it get any lower than this?
georgian by birth floridian because I'm lucky
May 5th, 2009
8:55 pm
Why are there so many regulars not accounted for on the blog tonight.
Anyone think it is because Bokkman did not follow the talking points from the weekly newsletter.
Jay you have confussed the sheep.
godless heathen
May 5th, 2009
8:59 pm
If Beamer and the fellow passengers of Flight 93 had prevailed and that flight had landed safely instead crashing into the Pa terrain? And the hijackers had been captured and “aggressively interrogated”. Libs would be here asking for the prosecuting of law enforcement and the liberation of the hijackers.
How about the US of A being known as the country that you don’t F*ck with, instead?
Mike
May 5th, 2009
9:00 pm
I recently came across this gem from hyper-partisan Bush hater Jonathan Alter, titled” Time To Think About Torture: It’s A New World, And Survival May Well Require Old Techniques That Seemed Out Of The Question”:
“In this autumn of anger, even a liberal can find his thoughts turning to… torture. OK, not cattle prods or rubber hoses, at least not here in the United States, but something to jump-start the stalled investigation of the greatest crime in American history. Right now, four key hijacking suspects aren’t talking at all.
Couldn’t we at least subject them to psychological torture, like tapes of dying rabbits or high-decibel rap? (The military has done that in Panama and elsewhere.) How about truth serum, administered with a mandatory IV? Or deportation to Saudi Arabia, land of beheadings? (As the frustrated FBI has been threatening.) Some people still argue that we needn’t rethink any of our old assumptions about law enforcement, but they’re hopelessly “Sept. 10″–living in a country that no longer exists.”
http://www.newsweek.com/id/76304
The fact that such a partisan liberal was calling for the torture of four guys who have since been completely exonerated demonstrates that many pundits have a short memory of the nation’s mindset just a few years ago.
Ray
May 5th, 2009
9:01 pm
We better get ready to decide whether our attitude toward our enemy is going to produce results. With the Taliban getting closer to the Pakistani capital, that country will be toast before long without major intervention by some third party. If we haven’t already removed the nuclear weapons from that country, we should do so very soon. This whole sequence of events taking place there should be at the top of our list. Talk doesn’t appear to work very well. The Taliban is sort of like North Korea….. take what you can get without any pretense of doing what you said you would do. They beheaded two Pakistani citizens today and made it very clear to everyone that this was just the beginning. They pose a greater threat than anyone else in the Muslim world. Water boarding is too good for these animals. If they obtain a nuclear weapon from Pakistan, look out Western world…… With our borders like a sieve, someone can easily get into our country carrying a nuclear device. And Susan is worried about three cretins, admitting their guilt and proud of what they have done. Why aren’t you concerned with the 20M ILLEGAL immigrants in our country because our Congress and our courts would not enforce the LAW. What does it take to make you serious about this threat? Are you so naive as to believe that prudent discussion and negotiation will stop them? These people are religious fanatics who thrive on killing the infidel. How soon we forget 9/11.
Hillbilly Deluxe
May 5th, 2009
9:03 pm
Booger @ 8:06
Just think, lots of folks pay money for water in plastic bottles that’s not near as good as what we drink for free.
md
May 5th, 2009
9:04 pm
Another war over wmd on its way. How ironic.
Taxpayer
May 5th, 2009
9:05 pm
AmVet at 7:57,
I thought the author made good points as well. Also, I liked his play on that Republican ‘anger’ theme. I’m just having a little fun with it here.
Obozo
May 5th, 2009
9:08 pm
Hey, why can’t Pockeestan take it’s rightful place among the nations of the world?
We have nuclear weapons, why can’t they have nuclear weapons?
We are the bad guys, remember?
They no longer have nothing to fear from us, we have changed!
We have given the Taliban hope!
Allah Akbar!
Yes we can!
TnGelding
May 5th, 2009
9:09 pm
Oh what a tangled web we weave….
What does it say about us when lawyers in the Justice Department break the law? And they wonder why Obama is having to apologize to our allies. I’m torn between hanging them to the nearest tree and just sweeping it back under the rug. It’s certainly another stain on Lady Liberty and our claim of liberty and justice for all. But we’ve overcome worse.
What’s the latest on Hannity’s waterboarding stunt?