To be knave or brave? The choice tortures Hannity

They used to call this “writing checks with your mouth that you lack the guts to cash.” I don’t know what they call it now, but I’m sure they still have a term for it.

If they don’t, “pulling a Hannity” might be a candidate.

From AP:

NEW YORK (AP) — The debate over torture is getting personal for two of cable TV’s prime-time hosts.

After Fox News Channel’s Sean Hannity made a seemingly impromptu offer last week to undergo waterboarding as a benefit for charity, MSNBC’s Keith Olbermann leapt at it. He offered $1,000 to the families of U.S. troops for every second Hannity withstood the technique.

Olbermann repeated the offer on Monday’s show and said in an interview Tuesday that he’s heard no response. He said he’ll continue to pursue it.

“I don’t think he has the courage to even respond to this – let alone do it,” Olbermann said.

Fox News Channel representatives did not respond to requests for comment.

The two men are on opposite poles of a debate that has preoccupied the worlds of talk TV and radio. Hannity says waterboarding is a fair and necessary interrogation technique for suspected terrorists; Olbermann calls it torture, says it’s ineffective and should not be done by Americans.

161 comments Add your comment

Kamchak

April 29th, 2009
5:48 pm

Waterboarding is torture. It shouldn’t be done to anyone.

Midori

April 29th, 2009
6:13 pm

oh come on, Kamchak — REAL torture is listening to Rush and Hannity’s loud mouth bolivating drivel.

Redneck Convert

April 29th, 2009
6:14 pm

Well, I just know old Sean will take the dare. Real Conservatives back up what they say with action. I only hope he don’t drown. Then I don’t know what I’d do with the hour of time I spend watching him and the two hours listening to him on the radio. But I know he wouldn’t welch on the bet. It’s just a little water.

Kamchak

April 29th, 2009
6:15 pm

Midori

Real torture is not being able to listen to Coltrane, Monk, Ellington, Davis, Armstrong….

I Report/ You Whine

April 29th, 2009
6:20 pm

Sean- Count to sixty and you will exceed Blowberman’s advertising revenue for an entire month.

His two viewers will have to pitch in to keep him on the air.

Susan Myers

April 29th, 2009
6:21 pm

Oh, Sheyawn Insanity…is there nothing taboo you can’t p*ss on?

If he had any stones, he’d do it and admit he’s wrong, especially since he brought the good name of our troops into it by “donating” any proceeds. Seriously, he’s just like his heroes: gutless and clearly not a patriot.

How many of the following people saw combat time, which lended to their clear thinking:
* George Bush
* Dick Cheney
* Scooter Libby
* Karl Rove
* Paul Wolfowitz
* Don Rumsfeld
* Ron Pearl
* Condoleezza Rice
* Sean Hannity
* Bill O’Reilly

Wow, what a shock: a list full of war-hawks and not a single veteran among them. Some on that list are more responsible than others for the proliferation of false propoganda that led to our invasion of a non-threatening sovereign nation…as such they should be tried for war crimes in The Hague.

Boink

April 29th, 2009
6:23 pm

Kudos to Midori! Took the words right out of my mouth. Hanity is such a charlatan……

I Report/ You Whine

April 29th, 2009
6:26 pm

In the Chicago metropolitan area, unemployment rose from 9.2 percent in February to 9.4 perecnt in March, according the Bureau of Labor Statistics.

Among regions with a population of 1 million or more, the Detroit area, home to the struggling titans of the auto industry, had the worst March unemployment figure with 14 percent.

democrat mayors and high tax rates, great combination, eh?

I Report/ You Whine

April 29th, 2009
6:28 pm

Wow, what a shock: a list full of war-hawks and not a single veteran among them.

Hey, don’t forget barak Obozo!

Paul

April 29th, 2009
6:28 pm

Watching the clip, I was surprised Hannity accepted, then it was a somber discussion when the other fellow said “no, not necessary” and the reasons he gave. They were both consistent – Hannity, in favor, willing; the other guy, opposed, and he would not do it, even to Hannity under such circumstances.

Then it gets theatrical. Sigh. Here comes Olbermann with his “me too!! me too!!’ schtick. He comes across as the guy on the outside who wants to grab the microphone after the big announcement and make it all about him. Sigh.

But the first fellow, the one talking to Hannity, brightly illustrates how he has principles and Olbermann doesn’t:

The first fellow is opposed to waterboarding and will not do it, even to Hannity for charity.

Olbermann is ‘opposed’ to waterboarding. Period. Not to jihadists, not to save lives, not under any circumstances. Wants to prosecute others who were involved. But he’ll make an exception for civilian Hannity. And justify it for charity. But he won’t do it himself, oh no, he’ll hand it off to Blackwater-type mercenaries.

So now Olbermann’s in the “No waterboarding, except for this…” camp.

Hypocrisy doesn’t begin to describe it.

@@

April 29th, 2009
6:30 pm

Pundits creating a little war of their very own. Kinda silly to me.

ByteMe from downstairs:

Obama is backing Turkey over Europe and why @@ is supporting this strategy when she won’t support most anything else Obama is doing.

You would prefer Iran as the region’s power broker?

Turkey has a stand-up military. They serve as a nice counterweight to Russia AND Iran.

Old Europe is on the decline. Turkey is on the rise.

Why does Europe complain about the U.S.? Because they see us as a young and reckless nation. Why should that bother them? Because it often puts them on the defensive. Can they defend themselves? NO! For that we are a necessary (you would say evil). I would say ally.

Since I’m on jury duty this week, I’ve had a lot of idle time to read Friedman’s “Next 100 Years” — fascinating stuff. The psychology of nations and the impact it has on geopolitics.

And what makes you think that’s the only thing Obama’s doing that I support? I support his continuation of Bush’s policies in Iraq. I do not, however, support his policy on Afghanistan which I believe puts me at odds with other conservatives.

Paul

April 29th, 2009
6:30 pm

Susan Myers 6:21

You forgot to list Pres Obama, VP Biden and Keith Olbermann.

AmVet

April 29th, 2009
6:31 pm

Waterboarding Pretty Boy?

You gotta be kidding me.

The Coiffed One wouldn’t want to break a nail.

Besides, he always seem the type that was more into golden showers.

He’s your typical pussified, chest-pounding chickenhawk that shucked and grinned for BotchCo’s Crusades.

Susan the list of those in the GOP “leadership” who had “priorities other than military service” is extensive. Think of every neo-con of the past 25 years. Chances are very high, not one served in uniform…

Susan Myers

April 29th, 2009
6:35 pm

Paul @ 6:30,

I never forget.

Paul

April 29th, 2009
6:35 pm

Let me clarify my 6:28

Keith Olbermann supports waterboarding.

Spin it any way you want, it’s a fact.

The Bush Administration, at least, limited it to a few jihadists in order to quickly fill in a ten-year deficit of knowledge.

Olbermann’s been on a consistent “no, never, it’s unAmerican, opposed to our values” streak ever since.

But now, he’s in favor of waterboarding in some circumstances.

Game, set and match.

Second sports analogy today. But it’s for sports announcer Olbermann. And it fits.

Paul

April 29th, 2009
6:37 pm

Susan Myers

Glad to hear it. Kinda thought maybe their lack of military time clouded their thinking on sending tens of thousands more troops into the meat grinder of Afghanistan. Or of keeping tens of thousands in Iraq. Well, at least VP Biden argued against the Afg policy change. Too bad he lost.

I Report/ You Whine

April 29th, 2009
6:42 pm

All the moonbat hysterics so quickly tossed to the wayside, does it stop the moonbats from gurgling up some new ones?

On Obama’s watch, defense contractor KBR Inc., a former subsidiary of Cheney’s Haliburton, was “awarded” a $35.4 million contract to design and construct a convoy support center at Camp Adder in Iraq despite that it is under criminal investigation in the electrocution deaths of at least two U.S. soldiers.

bwa

@@

April 29th, 2009
6:42 pm

Keith Olbermann supports waterboarding.

Obviously! and to compete for ratings no less.

Odd little fella, Olbermann.

American Goth

April 29th, 2009
6:48 pm

You folks are fools. Mewling children.
“Torture”. Huh.
I’ve been waterboarded.
More than once.
Never knew how long it was going to last.
Part of my military training.
No blood.
No broken bones.
No real pain.
Pretty uncomfortable, though.
I’ve seen torture. The Mujahdeen use torture a lot. They don’t waterboard, though. They enjoy inflicting pain, and waterboarding doesn’t do it. Not enough screaming to satisfy the Mullahs. No screaming, in fact. No pain.
If waterboarding is torture, then I am being tortured every time I visit the local coffeehouse and have to listen to the Lib at the next table pontificating about how “good” Obama’s policies “feel”.
Equal levels of discomfort there.

Midori

April 29th, 2009
6:56 pm

Besides, he always seem the type that was more into golden showers.

;lol;

:lol:

:lol:

:lol:

Midori

April 29th, 2009
6:57 pm

Paul,

more clarity: Keith supports waterboarding Hannity.

another reason I love him so much.

N.J,

April 29th, 2009
6:58 pm

Sorry, KBR ANNOUNCED it was awarded that contract on January 28th, 2009. The contract had been awarded weeks earlier in the last weeks of the Bush Administration, before Obama was inaugurated. The contract award process was 99 percent complete before Congress went out of session in late November.

The Bush Appointee, Preston “Pete” Geren, approved the award of the contract, and justified it to Congressmen asking for investigations into why KBR got the award:

In a letter sent last month, Army Secretary Pete Geren told Rep. Carol Shea-Porter that KBR got the new contract because the Army Corps of Engineers felt KBR had performed well on other jobs. Geren also said KBR was the only contractor to submit a proposal, and was not on a government list of debarred companies

http://www.startribune.com/politics/national/congress/42814522.html?

Chris Salzmann

April 29th, 2009
7:00 pm

Totally agree JB. Hannity’s mouth is writing checks his guts can’t cash. They don’t call them chickenhawks for nothing. I like that comment about Hannity and him liking golden showers. ROFLMAO

jon

April 29th, 2009
7:01 pm

George Bush served in the military. He was subject to being deployed to a combat zone just like any other member of the armed forces. And he flew a fighter aircraft – not a desk.

Chris Salzmann

April 29th, 2009
7:02 pm

Nice catch N.J. Whiner just loves to leave out the fine print…..just like his other ilk.

I Report/ You Whine

April 29th, 2009
7:03 pm

Mad Harris- Who is in charge of Congress and funds defense spending?

moron

Paul

April 29th, 2009
7:03 pm

Midori

All kidding aside: it demonstrates, as has been noted, how a commentator/entertainer will quickly set aside a previously inviolate moral stance when it serves his ratings. Or when it’s about someone he doesn’t like.

I know, it’s easy to laugh it off because it involves Sean Hannity. But the bottom line is: Olbermann just came out as an advocate of waterboarding. And according to his own words, the circumstances, the need, does not matter.

So much for morals, so much for principles.

jon

April 29th, 2009
7:05 pm

After the time I heard Olberman say that he never injects his own opinions into his stories, I knew he was not to be taken seriously.

Midori

April 29th, 2009
7:05 pm

oh Jon, please.

once you go AWOL out of fear of failing a drug test, it’s all downhill from there.

and wasn’t those “fighter aircraft” obsolete?

what was he protecting? his stash?

Paul

April 29th, 2009
7:06 pm

NJ

The Obama Administration could have vacated the contract. There would have been penalties, but they could have done it.

But they’re not campaigning and scoring points any more. They have to deal with the same reality as the Bush Administration – KBR’s about the only player in town.

The more things change…

StarBucks

April 29th, 2009
7:08 pm

Looking behind the scenes. First of all I could no more advocate the unilateral use of “torture” than I could justify the Spanish Inquisition. What is wrong and immoral is its own literal translation: “it is what it is”. No tongue twisting excerpts can change its meaning.

We as Americans are better than that.

I also believe that if we didn’t have such a military presence all over the world we would be much better off. Starting with Saudi Arabia. You could also argue that taking the finger out of Cuba’s eye by removing the troops from Guantanamo bay might have resolved the cold war tensions decades ago…(Put a giant Wallmart there and open up the gate).I don’t have a clue why we still have a large military presence in Germany. Didn’t the war end in 1945? WTF….

I mean people we have Nukes really big ones….We should never go to war unless the entire country is called upon and then there is pure hell to pay for the other side. These pentagon “play wars” are lunacy and divisive to our culture.

Truman, Kennedy, Johnson, Bush1 & 2 all played with fire and we got burnt.

We must start thinking outside the box and in a global matter when conducting foreign policy and our militarism, what worked in 1953 might just be a tad bit outdated in 2009…..

jon

April 29th, 2009
7:09 pm

Point set and match to Paul.

There are circumstances where Olberman supports waterboarding – just not when national security is involved.

Midori

April 29th, 2009
7:10 pm

two words, Paul: Bunnatine Greenhouse

Midori

April 29th, 2009
7:13 pm

if Shawn Hannity isn’t a threat to national security, I don’t know who is.

jon

April 29th, 2009
7:14 pm

Midori,

Where oh where do you get your history?

Bush’s military record is easy to find and read. Rumors and lies advanced by MoveOn.org aren’t facts.

Nevertheless he served in the military. Revisionist history from left wing nutjobs shot down by facts once again.

Members of the National Guard don’t appreciate your insult of their service.

Dusty

April 29th, 2009
7:16 pm

This is a subject for debate? Hannity, a radio and TV entertainer, making a farce of waterboarding is worth one minute of discussion? Bookman is beleaguered.

All you suckers fell for the foolishment of entertainers. Maybe that is why we have a president for entertainment. The elected one is a magician. He can make money disappear into debt faster than you can wink an eye. Now watch someone say “Tell me exactly where you got those facts!!”

OK, you win. There is no national debt. Obama has not added trillions. OK??

N.J,

April 29th, 2009
7:20 pm

Hannity has a long history of making similar offers and not following through or staging completely controlled events.

Hannity also has a prime place on the New Hampshire Gazettes “Chickenhawk” database as do virtually all right wing talk show hosts. Brit Hume, Michael Medved, Bill O’Reilly,Michael Reagan, Matt Drudge and many others all appear on the list of those brave men who bravely did whatever it took to avoid military service. I would include Rush Limbuagh, but his medical condition while derided by many, is a very serious and sometimes fatal condition.

Paul

April 29th, 2009
7:20 pm

Midori 7:10

Oh yeah. I also read about a guy in Defense Finance – rather high up – who wasn’t going to pay KBR on a contract as they couldn’t produce (statutory required) confirmation that they’d even done the work. He was threatened with his job. He paid, waited a couple years, retired, then went public.

It stinks.

But now the Obama Administration’s dealing with them. They’ll have their reasons, but they’re dealing. They need to call in McCain for some bipartisanship and get some of those reforms done.

Susan Myers

April 29th, 2009
7:24 pm

Looks like Sheyawn Hannity was lying to Grodin and his viewers about getting waterboarded for charity. He had very little integrity before and his lack of response to his offer just eroded it further. Like Bill O’Reilly, Glenn Beck and Rush Limbaugh, Hannity is just another right wing fraud who talks a big game but has no follow-up.

On The View today, Hasselbeck was defending her guy Hannity about this waterboarding stuff. Behar challenged Hannity to honor his offer and Hasselbeck got all whiny, saying that Hannity didn’t have to do it because he already gives money to the troops through his Freedom Concerts. She is deliberately choosing to ignore what Hannity said he’d do and she’s gone into defend Hannity at any cost mode…even if it makes her look like a partisan apologist. Guess she thinks Hannity shouldn’t have to honor his word.

TnGelding

April 29th, 2009
7:24 pm

Susan Myers

April 29th, 2009
6:21 pm

Bush guarded Texas and the west coast during the Vietnam war before deserting for Harvard Business School after UT had the good judgment to deny his application to law school.

Hannity will donate a million to the troops to get Keith off of his back.

It’s not torture when done for training purposes when you know it’s waterboarding. And it wouldn’t be torture to Hannity.

To think using torture would make U.S. troops more susceptible is naive. Certainly our enemy number one has no qualms about using it.

AmVet

April 29th, 2009
7:29 pm

Midori, I always like the bumper sticker that showed W with his foolish grin and said, I liked him better when he was a smackhead.

OK, so the guy did coke, other drugs, drank like a fish and screwed everything he could that had a skirt on.

So what? Tons of guys back then did.

And so what that he used his daddy’s connections to jump to the front of the line to get into the Texas ANG to avoid getting drafted.

Again, tons of guys used every trick, legal or otherwise, they could to avoid going to that clusterf&ck in the jungle.

Most of us never faulted them.

That he essentially disappeared while in Alabama to stump for some GOP hack is altogether a different story. But what the hell, he got away with it.

Excluding that last fact, which probably should have earned him a less than honorable discharge, all of the above is not the issue. And whether guys like him served at all is not the issue.

To be continued…

Susan Myers

April 29th, 2009
7:30 pm

The one thousand per second offer is brilliant…one minute, sixty grand for military families, that’s a lot of dough even for Keith Olbermann. What’s the matter, Sheyawn…do you hate our soldiers? It’s only water.

Olbermann needs to insist on a wide-shot, though. One of the effects of waterboarding is loss of bladder control.

TnGelding

April 29th, 2009
7:32 pm

Dusty

April 29th, 2009
7:16 pm

He neeeds to be a magician and a miracle worker to get out of the mess Bush left. The money is being created out of paper and is not disappearing. It’s being spent on everything under the sun because the wealthy have gone into a fetal position and big business thinks the way to get out of a recession is to fire workers after outsourcing jobs because they weren’t showing enough profit.

Paul

April 29th, 2009
7:32 pm

Susan Myers

So now another ultralib, Joy Behar, supports waterboarding in certain circumstances.

The list keeps growing.

Thanks for the tip -

Midori

April 29th, 2009
7:32 pm

oh can it Jon: I happen to be a veteran.

and I know SCORES who have nothing but disdain for that drunken fool of a loser.

Paul

April 29th, 2009
7:33 pm

Susan Myers

Looks like from your last post we can change our list of “those who formerly opposed waterboarding under any circumstance but now approve of it” to

Keith Olbermann

Joy Behar

Susan Myers

Midori

April 29th, 2009
7:37 pm

Paul,

in Hannity’s case, you can go ahead and add me to your list as well.

what are you doing? channeling Corporal?

American Goth

April 29th, 2009
7:39 pm

TnGelding, it’s not torture period. It’s just uncomfortable. Knowing that it’s training doesn’t make it any less uncomfortable. It still gives the sensation of drowning, without the risk.
Nothing listed in the CIA report qualifies as torture.
Uncomfortable, yes.
Embarrassing, yes.
Frightening, yes.
Torture, no.
I guess, as usual with you Libs, it comes down to “feelings”, not facts.
Or would one of you care to provide a clear legal definition of torture?
Not what you “believe” it is.
Not what you “think” it is.
Not what you “feel” it is.
What the actual legal definition is.
I have to go to work soon. Have fun.

Susan Myers

April 29th, 2009
7:39 pm

This just in -

Sheyawn Hannity has changed his mind from being waterboarded for charity to having a deluxe salon facial for charity instead.

Susan Myers

April 29th, 2009
7:44 pm

Perhaps a compromise can be reached. Instead of waterboarding, have Limbaugh sit on Hannity’s face. If he can handle that, I would concede he could deal with waterboarding.

AmVet

April 29th, 2009
7:44 pm

You are young, my son, and as the years go by, time will change and even reverse many of your present opinions. Refrain therefore awhile from setting yourself up as a judge of the highest matters. – Plato (427 B.C – 347 B.C.)

The simple concept that people like our own Mike, who nearly blows a gasket every time I use the word chickenhawk fail to grasp is this.

These men who used medical deferments, their families connections or other means to avoid Military service then later in life turned around and couldn’t wait to get other people’s kids killed in BushCo’s War of Lies.

To me they are the most repulsive politicians in my lifetime. Infinitely worse than Tricky Dick or demented Ronnie.

They pounded their chests like brave warriors. Their bloodlust was to be at others expense. They screamed for war. And they lied to get it.

And the worst of them went even beyond that. When it served them politically they called men like John Kerry and Max Cleland cowards and unpatriotic!

And IN THE ENTIRE GOP only Chuck Hagel and John McCain, both combat veterans, decried such revolting behavior. The only ones. Beyond shameful.

But the chickenhawks have come home to roost.

They had their tiny balls cut off in the past two elections and they are never going to recover.

And guys like me are going to do everything in our power to ensure that.

To this day I would still love to meet up with Blood & Guts Saxby in a dark alley…

Kamchak

April 29th, 2009
7:46 pm

American Goth

Malcolm Nance, former Master Instructor and Chief of Training at the U.S. Navy Survival, Evasion, Resistance, and Escape School (SERE) calls it torture. I’m gonna have to accept his take on this over yours.

Susan Myers

April 29th, 2009
7:47 pm

They should rename Fixed Noise the Coward Channel.

Susan Myers

April 29th, 2009
7:50 pm

Hannity just got KO’ed!

jon

April 29th, 2009
7:51 pm

Midori,

So that is your response to setting the record straight?

I know scores that having nothing but disdain for President Obama, but that doesn’t allow me to say he’s never been President.

Fact is people like Susan will spread any lie they can to discredit former President Bush, and partisans like you will rise to their defense.

Susan Myers

April 29th, 2009
7:52 pm

Sheyawn Hannity should have Christopher Hitchens on his show to debate this further. If Olbermann can’t knock some sense into this @ssclown, maybe Hitch can – especially since he was waterboarded and admitted it’s torture.

Kamchak

April 29th, 2009
7:52 pm

Damn–one list keeper leaves–another fills the void.

Midori

April 29th, 2009
7:55 pm

Jon,

the man’s record speaks for itself.

doesn’t it?

Hillbilly Deluxe

April 29th, 2009
7:55 pm

This is just profession rasslin folks. The only difference is “The American Dream” Dusty Rhodes and “The Nature Boy” Rik Flair gave you a show that was worth the money.

Midori

April 29th, 2009
7:56 pm

word, Kamchak.

word.

and Jon: I don’t need the likes of you to tell me how to feel about a low down dirty deserter.

Paul

April 29th, 2009
7:57 pm

Midori 7:37

No need to get… well, you can finish it.

Let me restate. It’s easy for ratings or for effect to toss something out and get a laugh or to attempt to watch a ratings competitor squirm. But I am quite struck by how some people, who seemingly took the moral high ground on the particular practice of waterboarding, who would not do it under any circumstances, even under stretched hypotheticals such as saving the lives of their own children. There were no exceptions.

But introduce someone they do not like, with whose politics they strenuously disagree, and they say “waterboard an American citizen to embarrass him, to put him in his place, to give him a taste of his own medicine.”

I find it incredible. Stunning, really. And in Olbermann’s case, morally bankrupt.

I’m about to sign off – dinner and all that – so please have a pleasant evening.

Susan Myers

[[Perhaps a compromise can be reached. Instead of waterboarding, have Limbaugh sit on Hannity’s face.]]

Two points: one, I thought you were against ALL forms of torture?

Two: you just won the “Visuals we did not want” award.

:-)

Susan Myers

April 29th, 2009
7:58 pm

If you want to pressure Sheyawn Hannity even more, go sign this petition:

http://www.thepetitionsite.com/1/tell-sean-hannity-to-be-waterboarded

Midori

April 29th, 2009
7:59 pm

Paul,

no more “morally bankrupt” than that lying race-baiting Hannity.

what’s good for the goose, eh?

Midori

April 29th, 2009
7:59 pm

thanks, Susan.

I’m on it!!

Midori

April 29th, 2009
8:01 pm

the president is about to come on, so now I must leave you.

before I go, I must say Paul that I can’t understand your defense of a race baiting, lying, hyperventilating scumbag like Hannity.

but then, you like O’Reilly too.

at least Olbermann has both intelligence and integrity.

jon

April 29th, 2009
8:03 pm

Noone called Kerry and Cleland cowards.

More revisionist history.

Paul

April 29th, 2009
8:04 pm

Midori

Just saw your 7:59 as I hit “Submit comment.”

You know I do not have much use for Hannity. But he did accept in that vid clip with someone who was quite sincere in his beliefs. And that man, quite honorably, cut off the conversation and offer. He was true to his principles.

But Olbermann jumped on a bandwagon to embarrass an opponent. In so doing, he reversed himself, as did Behar, and aided, abetted, encouraged what he views as torture against…

someone he hate.

someone he thinks deserves it.

And they took the moral high ground? And they think they’re better than Bush and Cheney?

It’s sadly shocking.

G’night.

American Goth

April 29th, 2009
8:04 pm

Kamchack, the official position of SERE is that waterboarding is not torture. Malcolm Nance didn’t refer to it as torture in his House Judiciary Committee testimony. He used the expression “Enhanced Interrogation Techniques”.
Which it is.
I also will accept his take on this, as it matches mine. I just won’t accept your distortion on his take.
It is illegal for the American military to torture military personnel. SERE uses waterboarding on military personnel. Waterboarding is not torture, no matter how many times you libs repeat the lie.
I have to go to work now, I’ll catch up on this later. That should give at least one of you enough time to come up with the legal definition of torture.

jon

April 29th, 2009
8:06 pm

People here can’t muster enough justification for their hatred of GOP political figures, so they just make sh*t up.

Paul

April 29th, 2009
8:08 pm

Midori 8:01

It’s not about Hannity. It’s about principles. Take the names out. Look at the positions, the statements of belief, and see what it takes to change them. It’s like a court case – the characters and what they did are subordinate to the greater principles. That’s why we have the rule if a murdering, thieving raping scumbag had his rights violated, he may very well walk. Same principle.

Double g’night -

jon

April 29th, 2009
8:12 pm

Midori sure gets ugly when lies are exposed.

StarBucks

April 29th, 2009
8:14 pm

Most of the posting class in here would choose to play checkers and tick tack toe, rather than Chess and or scrabble…….If you gather my meaning. Moon bats & Chicken hawks who never knew that they were on the same farm all the time.

jon

April 29th, 2009
8:16 pm

For example they call Bush a deserter. Consult the record, Midori.

Midori

April 29th, 2009
8:33 pm

you wingnuts need to take heed and watch this.

this is how a REAL president behaves.

screw the teleprompter!! full speed ahead!!

Midori

April 29th, 2009
8:34 pm

and Jon sure gets eerily defensive when he is shown to be full of it.

Kamchak

April 29th, 2009
8:35 pm

American Goth

http://smallwarsjournal.com/blog/2007/10/waterboarding-is-torture-perio/

“The carnival-like he-said, she said of the legality of Enhanced Interrogation Techniques has become a form of doublespeak worthy of Catch-22. Having been subjected to them all, I know these techniques, if in fact they are actually being used are not dangerous when applied in training for a short periods. However, when performed with even moderate intensity over an extended time on an unsuspecting prisoner–it is torture, without a doubt. Couple that with waterboarding and the entire medley not only ’shock the conscience’ as the statute forbids-it would terrify you. Most people can not stand to watch a high intensity kinetic interrogation. One has to overcome basic human decency to endure watching or causing the effects. The brutality would force you into a personal delimma between humanity and hatred. It would leave you to question the meaning of what it is to be an American.

With regards to the waterboard, I want to set the record straight so the apologists can finally embrace the fact that they condone and encourage torture.”

Please take note of the last sentence as he calls waterboarding torture. In no way am I “distorting” his take on waterboarding. Please– don’t take my word on it. I supplied you the link to read his entire article so you can decide for yourself.

Midori

April 29th, 2009
8:35 pm

Paul,

if it were about “principles”, you would have kicked both of those charlatans to the curb long ago.

Instant Replay

April 29th, 2009
8:35 pm

Paul is forgetting something with his game, set, match comment that allegedly proves Olbermann supports waterboarding. Hannity VOLUNTEERED for it.

Not the same game Paul. Comparing T-Ball to Major League Baseball, and, given Hannity’s cognitive abilities compared to Olbermann’s, referring to Hannity as a T-Ball hack works well as a comparison, even if it is an insult to the youth who compete in T-Ball.

Midori

April 29th, 2009
8:36 pm

Instant Replay pretty much has you there, Paul.

He DID volunteer.

StarBucks

April 29th, 2009
8:41 pm

I will add this to the Frey: I could care less about Bush2’s Military record, his presidential record was just plain awful! I wish him a long life and good riddance!

getalife

April 29th, 2009
8:43 pm

Midori

April 29th, 2009
8:45 pm

Getalife,

saw that story last night.

Sounds like a closet republican to me.

TnGelding

April 29th, 2009
8:49 pm

jon

April 29th, 2009
8:16 pm

He left Texas before getting his discharge from the ANG. What would you call it? He had been grounded and hadn’t been attending meetings before that.

American Goth

April 29th, 2009
7:39 pm

I haven’t written an opinion on what comprises torture. You’re right, I don’t know enough about it.

I Report/ You Whine

April 29th, 2009
8:51 pm

Susan Myers sounds desperate.

I can’t blame her.

TnGelding

April 29th, 2009
8:52 pm

StarBucks

April 29th, 2009
8:41 pm

Make that a long, miserable, guilt-ridden life, and I’ll agree.

Please excuse me, just a little hyper from lack of sleep and battling Wall Street. Regards to all!

I Report/ You Whine

April 29th, 2009
8:58 pm

What new idiocy will Obozo unleash on America tomorrow, oh wait, there is still time left for him to f something tonight.

N.J.

April 29th, 2009
8:58 pm

What is known about waterboarding and Khalid Sheik Mohammed and Abu Zubaida is that the most information that was gotten from these two was when those who captured them and imprisoned them got most of the information from these two immediately after they were captured, and their jailers were medically treating their wounds and treating them more kindly then they anticipated. Waterboarding itself did not get much reliable information at all. This is according to the jailers themselves.

Bud Wiser

April 29th, 2009
9:03 pm

Well, I’ve been gone for only a few days soaking up some nice Florida sun, and come back here to readthe same braying from the same morons.

I have therefore come to (for now) two conclusions:

1. Left wing idiots are by far the most ignorant fools to ever have access to a computer that I have ever read, and:

2. As hard as it may seem to believe, Florida drivers on the roads make Georgians look like the most courteous and safe drivers on the planet.

Really.

N.J.

April 29th, 2009
9:04 pm

Even more amusing to me is Texas governor Perry’s talk about secession. Largely because polls indicate that if he runs, he will lose pretty badly, so much so that Kay Bailey Hutchinson is going to be running against him in the Republican primaries.

The same is the case in several other southern states Alabama and Mississippi in particular, which polls also indicate are turning marginally blue since the election of Obama because of the relatively large black populations who now feel more inclined to take part in the electoral process than in the past.

Polls now place Alabama Democrats being a mere half percent behind Republicans in polls, and Missisippi which is now split right down the middle

N.J.

April 29th, 2009
9:07 pm

Some of my favorite Hannity tricks are when he puts long lists of economic data in his books and then gives totals on the bottom. Take a calculator and add them up for yourself and you find that his totals dont match the number given in the list. They are way off and of course in a direction that favors the conservative position.

I never look at such lists, no matter who gives them without taking out the calculator, and or sitting at my computer and doing the math myself

jon

April 29th, 2009
9:11 pm

Midori,

Defensive? How was I defensive?

TnGelding: I call it what his superiors called it. Read the record. It’s been released for all to see. This is old news and has been resolved years ago, no need to debate it again. It’s only come up because you people just can’t find enough facts to hate George Bush with so you make stuff up.

N.J.

April 29th, 2009
9:15 pm

Conservatives are good at revisionist history. One of the most unnoted things in the history of the 20th Century is the number of people who died in the period between the 1929 Crash, and the start of WWII in 1940.

The 1940 Census has between 13 and 14 million fewer Americans in the total U.S. population and when accounting for people who moved out of the United States to try to escape the Depression, you still end up with between 7 and 8 million people missing. The most accepted possibility accepted by most economic historians is that they died of starvation, malnutrition related diseases, or being able to afford any sort of medical care for treatable conditions. This largest percentage of the “disappeared” American population if frontloaded, lost between 1929 and 1933. At first there was more than enough food being produced by American farms to feed them, but they did not have enough money to actually buy it. As this accelerated, farms went under, were taken back by the banks, who of course did not farm the land. At one point in order to deal with the fact that there was no more animal feed, and to prevent a collapse in the prices of meat and dairy animals, the government purchased 6 million animals from farmers, slaughtered them and let the meat rot.

julio quintana

April 29th, 2009
9:16 pm

Reading Jay’s stupid remarks is enough torture for me…..

AmVet

April 29th, 2009
9:17 pm

Yeah, I too wanted to point that little fact out to Paul. Who BTW is truly able to ride that fence with the best of ‘em.

I admire that sometimes.

There are some in this country who try to rationalize these recent controversial “policies”. The ones that no US president before George Bush would use. The pro-war crowd fell prey to the spin of government lawyers and their legal psycho-babble. Who are paid handsomely to parse worse like “rough interrogations”.

And the faithful failed to fully appreciate how we are not like the barbarians. And will never be.

They contend that this technique is not the equivalent of what the homicidal Islamo-zealots do. Duh, no shiite. But what is the significance of that false comparison?

It is a historical fact that combat-weary people under enormous stress sometimes violate human rights, the Geneva convention, whatever. Some go to prison for it. Others get medals.

But no US President is above the rule of law. Not Tricky Dick. Not Slick Willy. Not George “Mission Accomplished” Bush.

The men who made these decisions are, in my opinion, fools. Because if we become like our enemy, even slightly, they’ve won.

Midori

April 29th, 2009
9:18 pm

Jon,

you came here spouting crap about what a hard core, high flying hero, airborne ranger Bush was.

I begged to differ, and offered my opinion of him and registered my disgust and disrespect.

you came back at me calling names.

that sounds pretty defensive to me.

Midori

April 29th, 2009
9:20 pm

AmVet,

I adore Paul, but I question his taste in “journalists”.

N.J.

April 29th, 2009
9:28 pm

I lived in Florida and I will agree about the drivers. As far as how that state was run, I got to watch it go from a period of great economic growth under Bob Graham and Lawton Chiles to the current economic catastrophe under Jeb Bush and his Charlie Crist.

One of the first things college grads do upon graduation in Florida is to get out of the state.

In fact a recent study done at a Florida University Again dispels the myth that Republicans are better for the economy than Democrats:

It’s important to dispel the myth that republicans are the party of fiscal responsibility. It’s easy to point at the fallout from the Bush 43 administration; but the evidence disproving this false marketing slogan goes back much further. In fact, the contrary evidence goes all the way back to 1896.

1 – The Markets, and especially small companies, perform better under the Democrats.

This was proven in a study by two finance professors at the University of California at Los Angeles, Pedro Santa-Clara and Rossen Valkanov. The report is titled “The Presidential Puzzle: Political Cycles and the Stock Market”, and you can see it here (.PDF format).

Using data since 1927, we find that the average excess return of the value-weighted CRSP index over the three-month Treasury bill rate has been about 2 percent under Republican and 11 percent under Democratic presidents: a striking difference of 9 percent per year! This difference is economically and statistically significant. A decomposition of excess returns reveals that the difference is due to real market returns being higher under Democrats by more than 5 percent, as well as to real interest rates being almost 4 percent lower under Democrats.

The results are even more impressive for the equal-weighted portfolio, where the difference in excess returns between Republicans and Democrats reaches 16 percent. Moreover, we observe an absolute monotonicity in the difference between size-decile portfolios under the two political regimes: From 7 percent for the largest firms to about 22 percent for the smallest firms.

2 – Economic Volatility? Worse under the Republicans.

This study by David Leblang of the University of Colorado and Bumba Mukherjee of Florida State University tracks stock market returns since the first day the Dow Jones industrial average was calculated in 1896 through the fall of 2001) shows that market volatility decreases during Democratic administrations.

The paper shows that the expectation that inflation rates will rise under left-wing presidential administrations does indeed have an impact on trading, as older studies have suggested, but in a different way than those studies proposed.

“Our model predicts that rational expectations for higher interest rates under left-wing administrations decreases demand for stocks among traders,” the professors write. “This decrease in demand leads to a decline in stock price volatility not only during the incumbency of left-wing governments, but also when traders expect the left-wing party to win elections.”

Alternately, the statistics also show that expectations of lower inflation under right wing administrations make the market more volatile. This is because traders increase their inflow of capital and investment into the stock market when they believe the interest-rate environment is more friendly for stocks. More money at work translates into more volatility in the markets.

The study showed this trend was consistent regardless of whether a right wing administration was in office or whether traders merely expected the Republican party to win the presidential election.

3 – Democrats pay their debts. Republicans create them.

National debt. The Chinese own a couple of trillion dollars of our debt. So do the Japanese and British. Let’s see who ran up that debt, shall we?

heard that tax breaks will stimulate the economy and help pay down the debt. Yet it never happened. The only time it trended downwards was when Clinton Economics were in play.

4 – Deregulation: The myth of the “free” market.

Republicans want no rules for lenders. Then, when common sense happens, they’ll call the borrowers “irresponsible”. This practice is marketed as “free market economics”. The fact is that you cannot have a free market without anti-trust legislation and other laws to even the playing field and prevent monopolies and plutocracy. Think of capitalism as a football game. How well would the game work if there were no referees and no goal posts. Therefore, a free market is a regulated market. The following graph shows the clear effects of de-regulation policies.

5 – The weak dollar? That leads to Federal deficits. So says Greenspan.

And having a weak dollar leaves us with less wiggle room too. As reported in the New York Times:

“While Mr. Greenspan did not say so, a stronger dollar would also leave the Federal Reserve with more freedom to cut interest rates if it perceived the American economy to be slowing sharply.”

…a weak dollar increases the likelihood that bad economic news would mean higher inflation. Just like now. Greenspan also said “Looking back at the history of the past century or more, the record would suggest that nations ultimately must rely on their domestic savings to support domestic investment.”

Oh, did you notice these statements were in 1995? Funniest part of that article was the bit where it says ‘Congressional Republicans introduced plans last week to balance the budget by 2002.’

Finally, let’s look at what an invested $10,000 in the S&P market index (excluding dividends) would yield in returns under the differing administrations:

So there we have it. Republicans are the party of fiscal responsibility? Not hardly.

I got out of Florida during Jeb Bush’s governorship. The place was a paradise between 1975 when I got there and 2000 when I got the hell out.

When I got there it was actually possible to LIVE on a salary that was barely over minimum wage. Work full time and attend college part time.

It was possible to actually live on relatively low incomes well into the late 1990’s, except for a few odd years when Martinez was governor.

But while Democrats were governors, the state was really quite a livable paradise. Now for the first time in many, many decades, the population is dropping due to the economic living conditions.

I Report/ You Whine

April 29th, 2009
9:35 pm

jon

April 29th, 2009
9:47 pm

Jon,

>>you came here spouting crap about what a hard core, high flying hero, airborne ranger Bush was.<>you came back at me calling names.<<

Lie # 2

Two lies make what?

Why do you need to lie so much to reinforce your hatred of those that you politically disagree with? Is it because your case is weak without the lies?

jon

April 29th, 2009
9:53 pm

Midori: The mysteries of this blog require me to redo my post.

>>you came here spouting crap about what a hard core, high flying hero, airborne ranger Bush was.<>you came back at me calling names.<<

Lie #2

Two lies make what?

Why do you need to lie so much to reinforce your hatred of those that you politically disagree with? Is it because your case is weak without the lies?