From the Republican National Committee

Now go outside and play.

UPDATE: Just thought I’d add this:

“WASHINGTON — The CIA inspector general in 2004 found that there was no conclusive proof that waterboarding or other harsh interrogation techniques helped the Bush administration thwart any “specific imminent attacks,” according to recently declassified Justice Department memos.

That undercuts assertions by former vice president Dick Cheney and other former Bush administration officials that the use of harsh interrogation tactics including waterboarding, which is widely considered torture, was justified because it headed off terrorist attacks.”

197 comments Add your comment

TnGelding

April 25th, 2009
11:04 am

Just heading out the door!

Some heroes are zeroes. The idolatry of our soldiers of fortune is misplaced. They’re just doing their jobs. And most of the time it has nothing to do with protecting our freedom.

ByteMe

April 25th, 2009
11:18 am

You will never convince those with faulty minds that their beliefs are wrong. The neo-con/Republican positions are their religion; strict adherence makes them the only true believers; the mantras “no taxes”, “illegal immigration is bad”, “gay marriage is bad” are their hymns.

What cracks me up is somehow these “patriots” have decided to defend torture as a “good thing” with such well-thought-out positions as “it’s not torture if they are still breathing afterward.”

I Report/ You Whine

April 25th, 2009
11:34 am

Release the memos then, you stooge!

geez, wa wa wa wa wa wa wa wa Bushie wa wa wa wa Cheney wa wa wa.

Obozo shot hisself in the foot, get over it.

~~~~~~

Anybody else get the feeling that the libs are angry that their goony predictions of a world without water didn’t come true?

The drought is over in metro Atlanta — three years after it began and more than a year after a dwindling Lake Lanier made national news.

But keep those rusty sprinklers in the garage. Outdoor watering restrictions will remain indefinitely because Lanier is still recovering and still stands more than 9 feet below full. The lake is the water source for more than 3 million metro Atlantans.-Urinal/ Team Obozo Memo Distraction Central

Well, boo hoo hoo.

Thwarted again, eh environmental terrorists, time to move on to your next mindless predictions of world ending catastrophes, like……………….”global warming,” Bwahahahahahaha, yeah, right.

TW

April 25th, 2009
11:53 am

ByteMe – exactly. They now proudly defend torture, perhaps even unaware that they are doing it.

The kool-aid has worked it’s way into the vital organs. All that’s left is the slly whine before the flat line.

Game. Set. Match.

Kamchak

April 25th, 2009
12:02 pm

Yes Andy release all the evidence. Oh, that’s right, some of the documents/evidence have been shredded/destroyed. How very convenient. Or presciently a$$ covering.

Torture is value of the United States.
Torture is not a Christian value.

Any attempt to explain/spin this issue, be it the ticking time bomb or decades long gaps in intelligence is nothing more than pathetic conscience easing on the part of those that know we crossed a line. This is “the ends justify the means” defense of those that know we went to far. These are not rational arguments–these are rationalizing arguments. No longer can we hold any high ground with regards to our treatment of prisoners.

Kamchak

April 25th, 2009
12:04 pm

correction: Torture is not a value of the United States

I Report/ You Whine

April 25th, 2009
12:09 pm

Oh yeah, the sniveling world wide apology liberal kowards think that “torture” is being in a box with a caterpillar.

Are there any men over there on your side that we could speak to for a moment?

They need to gather up their children, geez.

booger

April 25th, 2009
12:14 pm

Between Cynthia and Jay I think the AJC has this waterboarding thing pretty well covered.

Meanwhile, the economy is in shambles, N. Korea charges ahead with it’s nuclear weapons program even after Obama gave them a firm tsk tsk. Iran will soon have nuclear weapons, Pakistan, with an established nuclear program, is being over run by the Taliban, Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac are is worse shape than when the government took them over, And our country has run up more debt in the last 100 days than we can ever repay without massive tax increases or printing unsecured money.

But back on topic. Maybe Jay and Cynthia could organize a waterboarding week. Maybe Jay could write a book on the subject. My gosh I think we have just scratched the surface on this crucial issue.

Kamchak

April 25th, 2009
12:14 pm

Waterboarding Zubadaya 183 times over a period of one month is torture.

getalife

April 25th, 2009
12:15 pm

This story will snowball into the run up to the Iraq war making it easy for historians to label w and cheney the worst ever.

I don’t see the gop recovering this time.

They will have to start over like after the whig party.

ByteMe

April 25th, 2009
12:15 pm

Kamchak: see my posting above. You will NEVER convince faulty minds. Not worth the time. Better that we figure out how they reproduce and work to prevent that using the science they so despise. :lol:

Kamchak

April 25th, 2009
12:29 pm

ByteMe

I imagine they reproduce in the normal way. My parents are staunch, god fearin’, Limbaugh listenin’ conservatives that will scurry out to buy each book penned by Ann Coulter as soon as it is released. I preferred Jazz over talk-radio so I didn’t fall prey to the “us good, them bad” binary programming that has infected the airwaves for the past +30 years. I remember am radio here in Atlanta that was free of this garbage. There is now a whole generation that was weaned on this crap.

I Report/ You Whine

April 25th, 2009
12:34 pm

Waterboarding Zubadaya 183 times over a period of one month is torture.

Upchuck, try to work on your fact checking of a subject before you comment on it, I mean you wouldn’t want to appear clueless, would you?

It was KSM that got the water sports 183 times.

The poor thing.

Kamchak

April 25th, 2009
12:39 pm

Andy

Well, that makes all the difference in the world. It was a different person. Then that makes it all right.

RW-(the original)

April 25th, 2009
12:45 pm

Why does it seem that the liberals are always posting about they don’t fall into an us vs them trap but then immediately trash anybody that doesn’t think like them?

Oh well

Damned neocons trying to undercut Obama’s “tax cuts for 95%” lie

Jay B,

Shouldn’t you be joining Cheney in his request to release the results memos rather than calling him a liar and tacitly agreeing with keeping those memos hidden?

catlady

April 25th, 2009
12:51 pm

Byteme: You forgot “the fetus is king”. Also, have you noticed that those “patriots” rarely have served in the armed forces, much less in combat?

catlady

April 25th, 2009
12:53 pm

Kamchak: I don’t think they have ever been weaned.

catlady

April 25th, 2009
12:59 pm

Here is something I don’t understand: Why do folks who joined up on the National Guard and the Reserve howl and object when they get sent to war? Now, I am NOT defending sending ANYONE on tour after tour after tour, as Bush did. However, when the weekend warriors take the money, they have to expect that they may have to serve. Too many of them don’t connect the signing up with the actually serving in combat or support. It’s kind like a fireman who draws pay but then doesn’t want to be sent to a burning building.

TW

April 25th, 2009
1:00 pm

After World War II, we convicted several Japanese soldiers for waterboarding American and Allied prisoners of war.

And it is the GOP’s position that these convictions be overturned?

Wow, as if rightwing’s anti-Americanism isn’t evident enough in the way they have done bin laden’s ground work for him.

Time to institute a run-rule in politics.

Kamchak

April 25th, 2009
1:00 pm

catlady

hahahahahahahahahahahaha

maxwell

April 25th, 2009
1:07 pm

RW-(the original…Do you have any idea how many (result memos)
Your words.. Cheney asked for? A grand total of TWO! Do you RW find that striking…Only two? Is that all there is? I do….I would say Mr. Cheney is doing some CHERRY PICKIN!

Jay

April 25th, 2009
1:12 pm

RW, I agree those memos should be released, and have said so here. And CatLady, I don’t recall much in the way of complaints from Guard and Reserve folks. They know the score, especially seven-plus years into this. The overwhelming majority just do their duty.

I Report/ You Whine

April 25th, 2009
1:12 pm

TW gurgles- After World War II, we convicted several Japanese soldiers for waterboarding American and Allied prisoners of war.

From where does he get his information, one must ask-

After World War II, ~~~~~~~~~~we convicted several Japanese soldiers for waterboarding~~~~~~~~~~~~ American and Allied prisoners of war. At the trial of his captors, then-Lt. Chase J. Nielsen, one of the 1942 Army Air Forces officers who flew in the Doolittle Raid and was captured by the Japanese, testified: “I was given several types of torture. . . . I was given what they call the water cure.”-Washington Post

Ummm, only one slight problem-

Of the 80 men who took part in the raid with Colonel Nielsen, three were killed during the mission, five were interned in Russia and eight became prisoners of war in Japan. Of those POWs, ~~~~~~~three were executed by firing squad by the Japanese~~~~~~~~ and another died in captivity. Thirteen others would die later in the war. There are 14 Raiders alive today.

Ahs thinkin there might have been just a bit more to the “convictions” than water boarding.

It was like an extenuating circumstance to say the least.

But you go on, TW, offer you meager assistance to thee Obozo stuck in his steel trap of idiocy.

He needs all the help he can get.

TW

April 25th, 2009
1:18 pm

Whiner – those were the words of a JAG who used to teach MPs.

But you go ahead and trash him…par for the course.

ByteMe

April 25th, 2009
1:31 pm

catlady: I think the hymn’s title is “THY Fetus is King”. Just to be religulously correct.

ByteMe

April 25th, 2009
1:32 pm

That was “THY” as in someone else’s fetus, so as to better subjugate other women to the cause of “righteousness”.

Mike

April 25th, 2009
1:56 pm

ByteMe & catlady –

The sneering about how Republicans don’t serve in the military is common among partisan liberals., which led me to do a little research. The Military Times did a poll of active service members in 2007. The results are pretty much the opposite of the your mindless yapping.

1) How would you describe your political views?

Very conservative 8.8%
Conservative 37%
Moderate 38.7%
Liberal 7%
Very liberal 1.4%
Decline to answer 7.1%

Just to be clear:
45.8% of active service members describe themselves as conservative
8.4 % describe themselves as liberals

2) In politics today, do you consider yourself a:

Democrat 14.4%
Independent 21.1%
Libertarian 3.1%
Republican 48.9%
Other 4%
Decline to answer 8.5%

Again the Republicans far outnumber the Democrats

The same poll shows that 64% of active service members have an unfavorable view of the media.

http://www.militarycity.com/polls/2007activepoll_politics.php

Ever wonder what else you are wrong about?

Tom

April 25th, 2009
1:58 pm

Former CNN anchor Lynne Russell, on CNN “reporter” Susan Roesgen……

“She needs to go find something else to do”.

LOL!

RW-(the original)

April 25th, 2009
2:00 pm

maxwell,

If the true story is that there were no positive results then it wouldn’t be possible to cherry pick.

Jay B,

My apologies if I missed some offhand comment from you indicating your desire to see the memos released.

GOP is gone

April 25th, 2009
2:01 pm

I heard a very interesting interview of the FBI agent who first spoke with Abu Zabia (sp?). He testified that 99% of the information received from Zabia was obtained from HIS interview prior to any torture taking place. Apparently this guy was wounded and the agents used the old”I’m on your side” routine to establish a relationship with Zabia first, before the CIA got involved. This is when they obtained the information of the whereabouts of the 2nd in command guy and learned of an American training with Al Qeada who had reentered this country. He, the American, was later pick up at O’Hare and detained. This agent also said that after the waterboarding started they removed themselves from the interrogation because they said they considered it torture and did not want to be involved.

I am all for Cheney bringing any memos he has not already shredded prior to leaving the Whitehouse out in the open. Maybe that frantic shred fest was not such a stellar idea. One of those memos might have saved his a$$ or maybe the other way around, and he knew it.

I am still debating with myself over the prosecution issue. Rumsfeld did not blink when he sent Lindsey to jail though. Low level soldiers being dispensable I guess. I also heard her interview in which she stated they were ordered to do whatever it took to get information, short of death. ORDERED, by a superior and all. In my opinion Rumsfeld was probably the most inept one of the bunch. Starting a war without adequate troop numbers, which you generals have flat out told you, and your response is to fire the generals and get a bunch of “yes” men. Somehow I think the real soldiers might know more than this deferment chicken hawk bunch of bozos.

I say put everything on the table and move forward from here. Enough of the clandestine boogey man crap.

GOP is gone

April 25th, 2009
2:03 pm

Ah Mike,

Was’nt yesterdays diatribe about how polls suck?

GOP is gone

April 25th, 2009
2:04 pm

And so if your poll in accurate, then why is Obama President now?

Mike

April 25th, 2009
2:05 pm

GOP is gone –

On the “chicken hawk” nonsense.

1) Rumsfeld served in the navy from 54-57. My guess is that is more service than you have put in. Feel free to correct me if I am wrong.

2) Do you also consider Obama a “chicken hawk”? He never served and was a strong advocate of the Afghan War. from the beginning. Same thing with Biden, who got as many deferments as Cheney. Or do you have to disagree with your narrow views to be a “chicken hawk?”

Mike

April 25th, 2009
2:09 pm

GOP is gone –

“Was’nt (sic) yesterdays diatribe about how polls suck?”

Nope. My point yesterday was that a Pew poll indicates that 71% of Americans support torturing terrorist suspects. Don’t know how you twisted that into “polls suck.

“And so if your poll in accurate, then why is Obama President now?”

Because the military makes up a small percentage of the population. Does this really confuse you?

Mike

April 25th, 2009
2:13 pm

For those who missed the poll that shows that only 25% of Americans and only 19% of Independents think that terrorism suspects should never be tortured:

http://people-press.org/report/510/public-remains-divided-over-use-of-torture

md

April 25th, 2009
2:13 pm

“They now proudly defend torture, perhaps even unaware that they are doing it.

The kool-aid has worked it’s way into the vital organs. All that’s left is the slly whine before the flat line.

Game. Set. Match.”

Assuming by “they” you mean “GOPers”, this is quite a comical revelation coming from a member of the “other” side that will turn and defend abortion.

Do you really not see the problem with that stance?

And if I make a wrong assumption about your affiliation, then there should be no problem distancing yourself from a group that is able to define killing but not able to define torture.

GOP is gone

April 25th, 2009
2:16 pm

No Mike I have never served as an adult. I served 22 years with my father in the Marine Corps as a child though. Including his Vietnam service and watching him leave in his Dress Blues as Casualty Officer, frequently, to inform some family of their childs death. One must take in to consideration that I am female, although times have changed. I did really think about it at one time after the abuction of the American Embassy Staff. My father advised against it.

I stand corrected on Rumsfeld. I guess since few others in that particular cabinent had served I assumed he had not. Did he see any combat? I somehow doubt it but I could very well be wrong.

Since we are discussing service in the military, did you serve?

And since you brought it up, I have always found your views to show YOUR mind is so narrow it could traverse the neck of a bottle of Coca cola without touching either side.

Taxpayer

April 25th, 2009
2:31 pm

Wow. It got hot outside. This is a good time to be indoors and chilling out. I see that the Republicans are still trying that lame claim that they just had to break the law in order to save themselves from the bad people that were going to kill them any minute. Well, “live by the sword, die by the sword”, whatever floats your boat. That does not mean that others have to go along with their perverted sense of right and wrong and that’s just one of the reasons why the GOP is DOA. Good riddance.

GOP is gone

April 25th, 2009
2:36 pm

I might have confused the dates on your “polls suck” diatribe, It was the day that Jay posted his most of American’s think the country is better under Obama or such and such . Of course you considered that poll flawed.

Kamchak

April 25th, 2009
3:12 pm

Torture is dishonourable. I don’t need a poll to either validate or repudiate this fact.

md

April 25th, 2009
3:13 pm

“That does not mean that others have to go along with their perverted sense of right and wrong ”

Do you not see the silliness of that statement considering both “groups” consider themselves to be right?

Mike

April 25th, 2009
3:13 pm

GOP is gone –

“Did he see any combat?”

Don’t see how, as we weren’t in a war at the time. Is that relevant to your “chicken hawk” attack?

“Since we are discussing service in the military, did you serve?”

Nope, but I am not the one attacking people for not serving. You are.

I guess you are going to duck the is Obama a chicken hawk question. Not surprising, as you would have to admit your own silly double standard.

“Of course you considered that poll flawed.”

You are mistaken. I don’t doubt for a second that a poll would show that Americans think the country is better off under Obama and such, although I don’t think that was a poll question that came out recently. I didn’t vote for Obama, but I support him and think he is doing a good job.

You don’t seem to know what you are talking about on any matters.

Mike

April 25th, 2009
3:16 pm

md –

Please don’t waste your time trying to point out to Taxpayer how his silly arguments can be latched on to by partisans of any stripe. He is firmly in the “we bad, you good” camp and does not understand that mindless conservatives partisan are equally capable of relentlessly bleating that specious argument.

RW-(the original)

April 25th, 2009
3:19 pm

Some things that would be screaming headlines and 24/7 TV coverage if a Republican was President just can’t be found in the great American free press these days. So what do you guys think about this?

The Obama administration is urging the US Supreme Court to overturn a landmark decision that stops police from questioning suspects unless they have a lawyer present.

Mike

April 25th, 2009
3:21 pm

GOP is Gone –

” I served 22 years with my father in the Marine Corps as a child though.”

1) That is some long childhood.

2) Dick Cheney’s dad was in the Navy, so if you “served”, so did he.

Mike

April 25th, 2009
3:23 pm

Since GOP is Gone is ducking the question, can anyone explain to me why Cheney is a chicken hawk and Obama is not?

md

April 25th, 2009
3:23 pm

Mike,

I doubt seriously that anyone here is going to change the mind of anyone else, short term. But I was once a card carrying democrat voting strictly along party lines. The cycle of life has a way of opening the mind a little as we move along. I now understand that both groups need improvemnet and since this is the new era of “hope and change”, one never knows.

md

April 25th, 2009
3:25 pm

Mike, thats easy. Because one belongs to one party and one belongs to the other. Everybody knows thats how it works – don’t they???

Taxpayer

April 25th, 2009
3:26 pm

There is simply no comparison between our professionalism and their brutality.

Well, Mr.Goss, who the hell said anything about comparing professionalism to brutality. The end does not justify the means. Pervert.

Susan Myers

April 25th, 2009
3:28 pm

Torture is what the world calls it, and what we called it when the Japanese did it to our guys in WW2.

Calling it ‘enhanced interrogation techniques’ or ‘harsh interrogation’ is such a Republican way of saying it. It’s awful to see such sneaky Rove-speak creep into Democratic party circles.

Torture is the crime being discussed. Republicans and Bush lovers will continue to call it some other softer name because they are just too weak to handle the truth, or to confront it.

Mike

April 25th, 2009
3:28 pm

md –

No doubt. I voted for Clinton twice and Bush twice and I am about tired of seeing mindless partisans try to destroy each other’s elected officials. With these folks it is more about hating folks who don’t share their views than it is actually trying to build a successful country.

md

April 25th, 2009
3:29 pm

Rw,

Makes sense considering Obama is a lawyer. I always wanted to hire my own personal lawyer to shadow my every move. Sounds like job security for his frat brothers.

Kamchak

April 25th, 2009
3:30 pm

Mike, maybe you can explain, if you have such a disdain of polls, why then, do you keep citing and linking them. Methinks you are shopping for a rationalization for our opinion.

md

April 25th, 2009
3:30 pm

Susan,

You also validate my post at 2:13. Good job.

Mike

April 25th, 2009
3:32 pm

Susan Myers –

It was called “torture” in the poll that showed that 71% of Americans support its application to terrorist suspects.

BTW: you do know that Clinton, who is neither a Bush lover nor a Republicans, used extraordinary rendition to send terrorism suspects to countries where they were tortured with far more harsh method, right?

Mike

April 25th, 2009
3:33 pm

Kamchak –

When have I shown disdain for polls? Are you taking the word of GOP is Gone as some kind of source?

Taxpayer

April 25th, 2009
3:37 pm

…don’t waste your time trying to point out to Taxpayer…

Now, roll over.

Mike

April 25th, 2009
3:40 pm

Taxpayer –

LOL. Another useless “zinger”. Care to explain why you are not “rolling over” for me with your inane responses?

Susan Myers

April 25th, 2009
3:42 pm

It is frightening how many Americans endorse torture.

Usually, their argument runs “You would use torture if you knew your child’s life was threatened”. This, of course, is a specious argument. Terrorism threatens an almost infinitely small number of Americans. Second-hand smoke, sugar (or its evil twin high-fructose corn syrup), automobiles, and gun-crazies are a far, far greater threat to their children than any ragtag band of extremists, yet the pro-torture crazies are silent on these other threats to their children.

Torture is a slippery slope, and is the hallmark of despotic and immoral regimes. I find it more terrifying that some Americans support these ideologies.

Taxpayer

April 25th, 2009
3:42 pm

I said, roll over.

RW-(the original)

April 25th, 2009
3:44 pm

MD,

The point was that Obama is arguing to take away your right to an attorney during police questioning, not that he’s trying to get lots more lawyers into the process.

Mike

April 25th, 2009
3:46 pm

Taxpayer –

Sure, just as you keep “rolling over” for me. LOL

Look, you might have a point if you didn’t respond to every single one of my posts. As it is, you just come off as a silly hypocrite who just can’t make a valid point about anything. Even the folks who share your views can see that.

Mike

April 25th, 2009
3:48 pm

Susan Myers –

The “pro-torture” crazies represent 71% of the American public and 81% of independent voters.

Your rhetoric is no different than the staunchest pro-lifer.

Taxpayer

April 25th, 2009
3:57 pm

The Republicans are trying everything they can to rationalize their behavior. They’re even trying to shift the discussion to one of “Bad Obama for releasing documents” instead of sticking to the message at hand. That message is that members of the Bush Administration broke the law. They got a lawyer to sign a memo to provide them cover and then they even exceeded the limits that were given in their own memos. But their plans just kept falling apart. Their so-called legal use of torture did not get them the cover that they so desperately wanted for going to war in Iraq. More and more of the truth is coming out and I say that it is long overdue. Let the chips fall where they may, just give us the facts.

Kamchak

April 25th, 2009
4:00 pm

Taxpayer

Thanks(?) for the link to the Porter Goss piece. What a tool. The “thin red line” he referred to is the line between honourable and dishonourable behavior.

Mike

My mistake. You OBVIOUSLY have no disdain for polls since you DO cite and link to them. Still shopping for that rationalization for your opinion?

Taxpayer

April 25th, 2009
4:02 pm

You might have a point if you were to prove that I responded to posts. You’d even have the makings of a miracle if you proved that I responded to every single one. Now, roll over again, just for fun. One more time and I will not ask you to perform another trick today. OK.

Susan Myers

April 25th, 2009
4:03 pm

The purpose of the torture program was to elicit false confessions of collaboration between al Qaeda and Iraq. This is typical of conservatives. Create disinformation to achieve your goals. They do this with “studies” claiming smoking does not cause cancer, that global warming is not a problem, that cutting taxes for the rich helps the rest of America, and that gay marriage is a threat to society. They have their disinformation mills to help them – the Tobacco Institute, AEI, Cato, Heritage, Mercatus, Saban Center, Competitive Enterprise Institute, etc. Conservatives, as they loudly proclaim, will create their own reality. Fine – but don’t make America live in your Ronald Reagan fantasy world of lies and deceit.

Mike

April 25th, 2009
4:07 pm

Kamchak –

“My mistake. You OBVIOUSLY have no disdain for polls since you DO cite and link to them. Still shopping for that rationalization for your opinion?”

Well, much more often I use polls to rebut a particular argument. For example, today I used a poll to demonstrate that catlady’s and BD’s claim that conservatives don’t serve in the military is dead wrong.

That being said, Bookman and others from the left use polls to illustrate their points. Does that mean that they are “shopping for that rationalization for your opinion?”

Thanks for admitting that you were wrong about your accusation of me though.

Mike

April 25th, 2009
4:08 pm

Taxpayer –

You have responded to three of my posts in the past 15 minutes, so your bleating makes even less sense then usual.

And yes, if responding to post is “rolling over” than I will continue to match you roll for roll. LOL

Taxpayer

April 25th, 2009
4:10 pm

Susan at 4:03. So true. It’s pathetic. If the GOP policies and philosophies are so great, let them prove it. Of course, my idea of proof is through the use of relevant facts. For example, I don’t need a Republican telling me that torture would have been OK if Obama had kept his mouth shut. Yet, they obviously see that as some form valid stance to take.

Mike

April 25th, 2009
4:12 pm

Susan Myers –

“The purpose of the torture program was to elicit false confessions of collaboration between al Qaeda and Iraq.”

Any evidence for this claim? Or is this part of your own “fantasy world of lies and deceit”?

Also, what does your Reagan reference have to do with anything other than to demonstrate the fact that your point of view is rooted in generic partisanship?

Susan Myers

April 25th, 2009
4:12 pm

Bush lied, and Cheney’s inner evil is now laid bare.

You own this, Republicans. And you owe it all to voting for those two.

Pogo

April 25th, 2009
4:14 pm

Jay doesn’t care about truth. Jay cares about his liberal idealogy only. A person that cannot look at things in different ways other than his own is not a person at all. He is a prisoner of his own making. This describes both Jay and his liberal Gal-Pal Cynthia to a tee. They are chained to themselves. This basically makes them pawns to the likes of George Soros and Obama himself must also be subserviant to that gentleman and his organization. Because Jay and Cynthia can only see things in the world through one spectrum they are useless as journalists. I wonder why Cynthia ever won an award? She certainly isn’t that good nor does she have the scope to be a serious journalist.

Mike

April 25th, 2009
4:14 pm

Any of the torture critics here have a problem with Clinton’s program of extraordinary rendition of terrorism suspect to countries who tortured them with far more brutal methods? Any of you have a problem with Obama assassinating untried terrorism suspects in Pakistan with missile strikes?

I support both of the above Presidents in their actions, but then again, I am not a partisan with double standards of moral behavior.

Taxpayer

April 25th, 2009
4:17 pm

Mike

April 25th, 2009
4:17 pm

Susan Myers-

Was Hillary lying when she said:

“In the four years since the inspectors left, intelligence reports show that Saddam Hussein has worked to rebuild his chemical and biological weapons stock, his missile delivery capability, and his nuclear program. He has also given aid, comfort, and sanctuary to terrorists, including al Qaeda members … It is clear, however, that if left unchecked, Saddam Hussein will continue to increase his capacity to wage biological and chemical warfare, and will keep trying to develop nuclear weapons.”

Also, none of the Democratic House leaders had any trouble with “Cheney’s inner evil” when they were informed about waterboarding in 2002. Got a problem with them? Or is you outrage just an excuse for your partisan hatred?

md

April 25th, 2009
4:18 pm

sm,

“This is typical of conservatives. Create disinformation to achieve your goals.”

Please tell everyone the difference between their fantasy world and your fantasy world. That should be interesting.

You have a tendency to group and lable, yet the world is made up of individuals. Until you no longer are a bot of a party, it is a little hypocritcal to dismiss the rhetoric from bots from other parties.

ByteMe

April 25th, 2009
4:20 pm

Mike @1:56: That wasn’t me sneering at anything about the military, but I got curious about your poll, because it seemed problematic, considering that the military ended up voting in high numbers against a Navy man and for the skinny lawyer.

On Dec. 10, we e-mailed a selection of active-duty, National Guard, reserve and retired military subscribers of our four military weeklies, asking them to take part in our annual poll. The respondents were directed to an independent polling firm that hosted the survey and tabulated the results. The poll was closed Dec. 17.

In other words, people self-selected for the survey, which makes is why you don’t see a confidence interval like you would for a normal random poll of a significant number of people. Also, the survey was taken before things got worse with the Republican Party as 2008 wore on and McCain/Palin embarrassed themselves along with Bush playing hide-and-seek with the economy. The point is that I think that things might have shifted a bit. Maybe not flipped, but definitely think a shift in affiliation happened.

md

April 25th, 2009
4:20 pm

Mike

April 25th, 2009
4:21 pm

Taxpayer –

Is this another case of you not responding to me?

There is nothing in the article that says that the purpose of the interrogations was find such a link. It says that was a line of questioning.

Thanks for rolling over for me.

Kamchak

April 25th, 2009
4:23 pm

Mike

I can own up to my mistakes with no problem. A person who doesn’t make mistakes is a person who isn’t doing anything. But why would you cite a poll “…that 71% of Americans support it’s(torture) application to terrorists suspects.”? If you are pro torture then grow a pair and say so. Don’t hide behind numbers. Go with the flock.

Mike

April 25th, 2009
4:25 pm

ByteMe –

Military members voted 3:1 for McCain.

The questions you have about the poll are valid, but frankly, every poll has flaws in it. That doesn’t prevent folks like Bookman from using polls to bolster their argument.

All that being said, the poll would have to be off by 40% or so to justify yours and catlady’s claims that conservatives don’t serve in the military.

Mike

April 25th, 2009
4:29 pm

Kamchak –

I am not hiding behind numbers. I still think Bush was a good President and I don’t care what the polls think. (I also think that Clinton was and Obama is a good President, but that is not relevant.)

Let me be clear: I have no problem with the torture of three (that’s right, three) architects of 9/11 on moral grounds. I am concerned when I hear that other methods may have been more effective, but I am not confident that is the case.

A large reason why I cited the poll in question was a response to the frequently heard claim of opponents to torture that those who support it are a fringe minority.We are not.

md

April 25th, 2009
4:32 pm

You all are splitting hairs. A sliding line along a scale. Torture has a line just as abortion has a line. There is no argument for or against either unless it is consistent, which in most cases is not.

So what many of you are saying is torture is wrong and killing is OK. So by that logic, instead of torturing the terrorists, we should just kill them and be done with it. Right?

Mike

April 25th, 2009
4:40 pm

md –

“So by that logic, instead of torturing the terrorists, we should just kill them and be done with it.”

Well that is clearly the position of the torture opponents on this board, none of whom care about Obama assassinating untried terrorism suspects in Pakistan.

They also don’t care about Clinton sending them to countries who tortured them for us.

Kamchak

April 25th, 2009
4:41 pm

Mike

I am not saying you are a fringe minority. I am saying that I think that you know torture is wrong and you are hiding in the herd mentality in an effort to rationalize a dishonourable position. Just because 71% say it’s O.K. is not a reason for me to say so. You, however, continue to cite that figure. Perhaps if you say it enough times it can ease your conscience.

Taxpayer

April 25th, 2009
4:46 pm

md,

Torture is illegal. It is also wrong. Waging wars against nations that pose no imminent threat is wrong but apparently not illegal. A lot of innocent people died in Iraq as a result of our invasion and that’s wrong but also apparently not illegal. (By the way, I’m obviously not talking Ten Commandments here otherwise all deliberate killing is illegal.) A lot of our soldiers died in Iraq for no reason that I find justifiable. That’s my opinion and I have a right to it and you have a right to yours. Over 4000 of our soldiers died in Iraq even though Iraq was not planning to attack us. We would have needed another terrorist attack on the same scale as the 9/11 attack to kill as many US residents as there were US soldiers killed in Iraq and there is absolutely no proof that the war in Iraq did anything at all to prevent another attack. The more likely ‘truth’ is that other measures after 9/11 such as heightened awareness and increased security and the loss of the lives of terrorists in the US that were capable of carrying out another attack, etc., have prevented any new major attacks in the US since 9/11.

md

April 25th, 2009
4:48 pm

Mike,

Interestingly enough, in the many years I’ve been asking for the explanation to the inconsistent logic, not one has been able to explain it in a logic sequence and without party rhetoric. One simpley can not argue in favor of one and against the other without contradicting themselves.

Ken

April 25th, 2009
4:49 pm

Enter your comments here

Ken

April 25th, 2009
4:49 pm

define torture

I Report/ You Whine

April 25th, 2009
4:50 pm

If Osama Has Bin Laden is reading Susan Myer’s comments then he is giggling for sure.

How naive can you get?

Mike

April 25th, 2009
4:52 pm

Kamchak -

“I am not saying you are a fringe minority.”

I never said you did so. However, Susan Meyers did so at 3:42 and the same argument has been made on this blog several times.

“I am saying that I think that you know torture is wrong and you are hiding in the herd mentality in an effort to rationalize a dishonourable position.”

I respect your right to have an opinion. That being said, I don’t accuse your distaste for Bush to be a product of a herd mentality simply because it correlates to a poll.

“Just because 71% say it’s O.K. is not a reason for me to say so.”

I never said it was.

“You, however, continue to cite that figure. ”

I cited it in direct response to Susan Myers claim, then you jumped in.

“Perhaps if you say it enough times it can ease your conscience.”

My conscience if fine, thanks. I could care not care less if three architects of 9/11 were waterboarded.

Does your conscience trouble you that you have no objections to Obama’s assassination of untried terrorism suspects.

md

April 25th, 2009
4:52 pm

T,

“and there is absolutely no proof that the war in Iraq did anything at all to prevent another attack”

and there is absolutely no proof that the war in Iraq did just the opposite either.

Thats a never ending game.

catlady

April 25th, 2009
4:55 pm

Jay@1:12: My experience has been different. I have seen quite a few human interest articles over the last several years where some Reservist or Guard member is complaining about being called up. Most recently, I believe it was a woman (from NC?) who was to report and showed up with her children in tow, saying she couldn’t because she didn’t have a sitter (her husband traveled as part of his job). Before that, it was a pair of married folks complaining that they were being separated by being sent to two different deployments. A common thread has been that they signed up without much realization that they might have to actually serve more than occasional weekends and 2 weeks in the summer.

However, I certainly agree that the majority of folks suck it up, do the best they can, and do their duty. God bless them and all the other servicepeople who take care of their committments and serve for the protection of our interests!

Taxpayer

April 25th, 2009
4:56 pm

I’ll gladly take Susan’s so-called naivete any day over another person’s willingness to rationalize away their illegal activities.

Kamchak

April 25th, 2009
4:58 pm

“My conscience is fine, thanks. I could not care less if three architects of 9/11 were waterboarded.”

Well then sir, you are without honour.

Taxpayer

April 25th, 2009
4:58 pm

md,

the arguments have been made before that the war in Iraq did help to prevent terrorist attacks in the US. I’m glad to see that you disagree with that position also.

Mike

April 25th, 2009
5:00 pm

md –

“One simply can not argue in favor of one and against the other without contradicting themselves”

Do you notice that despite the fact that many folks have taken the time to respond to my posts, none have responded to my question as to why they have no qualm with Obama’s assassination of untried terrorism suspects?

They clearly know that there is huge contradiction there, but their partisanship will not allow them to admit that if one is wrong, the other is well.

md

April 25th, 2009
5:01 pm

I’ll gladly take Susan’s so-called naivete any day over another person’s willingness to rationalize away their illegal activities.

Quit talking like that about Nancy Pelosi.

md

April 25th, 2009
5:03 pm

Mike,

That is why they are bots. Mechanically moving through life unable to apply logic if it goes against what they have been conditioned to think by their party. And that goes for all parties.