This isn’t what I thought ‘victory’ looked like

From CNN:

BAGHDAD, Iraq (CNN) — At least two suicide attackers killed at least 60 people Friday near a holy Shia shrine in Baghdad, according to Iraq’s Interior Ministry and medical sources.

At least 125 others were wounded when the bombers struck on two roads leading to the Imam Musa al-Kadhim shrine, one of the holiest in the Shia Islam religion.”

The attacks come a day after 87 were killed by attacks by suicide bombers in Diyala province and Baghdad. Most of those victims were also Shia.

The relative peace purchased in Iraq by U.S. government payouts to Sunni militias seems to be ending as those payments end. And rather than respond through politics or the ballot box, the Sunnis are reverting to the bomb.

Good thing we’ve already declared victory, right guys?

67 comments Add your comment

Ralph

April 24th, 2009
3:49 pm

The Pottery Princple Strikes Again: You broke it, you fix or own it by having won the election.

It’s Obama’s problem now, sunshine!

Taxpayer

April 24th, 2009
3:51 pm

Jay, “Victory, like “torture” can be defined to mean many things. One more thing that this country could use is a standardized dictionary that everyone is required to use.

What

April 24th, 2009
3:54 pm

possibly this is a result of showing a public disintrest and pursuing basically 2 other wars, 1 with people 1 with drones to kill people.

Possibly these (man-made disasters) are a result of either feeling neglected or possibly unsupervised?

Mitchell Gant

April 24th, 2009
3:55 pm

Bookman, are you still there? Didn’t you get the hint when you were canned from the editorial board? You’re on the way out, boyo. You and Cynthia ran off way too many subscribers with your Leftist nonsense over the years, and the AJC can’t support $1 million a week in losses any more. Where are you going to get a job being a by-the-numbers Democratic apologist after you’re thrown out in the street? CNN sure isn’t going to be hiring.

Bosch

April 24th, 2009
3:56 pm

Taxpayer,

Don’t know if you saw my response downstairs – but yes, it was mammalian.

There is no such thing as “winning” a war anymore – not sure there ever was to begin with.

Bosch

April 24th, 2009
4:00 pm

Mitchell Grant,

Are you and Jim Pritchard the same person because that dude wrote almost the same thing earlier – where are you hate filled – no class individuals getting these memos? Is Boortz telling you to say this? I swear the comments were eerily similar.

Anyway, as I told Mr. Pritchard – do you frequently go to people’s homes that you do not like and say, “Ha! You loser, I hope you loose your job and your house and your kids starve.” Do you not see or care that such comments make you completely lacking in class or taste or even humanity?

Seriously, you are taunting someone that you hope loses his job because you disagree with him politically – how unabashedly pathetic and small.

Jake

April 24th, 2009
4:01 pm

Carter showed weakness, Russians invaded Afghanistan. Obama showed weakness, bombings intensified. This ‘we are the world’ approach to foreign affairs, and a fondness for taking billions from hard-working people and giving it to the lazy, stupid, and inept are classic Demo problems. You voted for him, now you gotta live with him.

ByteMe

April 24th, 2009
4:04 pm

Jake: you forgot to mention the part where Russia got their asses handed back to them by the Afghan tribes. So if they did it because “Carter showed weakness”, good on Carter for being smarter than the Russians!

Next!!

Taxpayer

April 24th, 2009
4:05 pm

Bosch,

Again, ewww. I will not inquire further. Regarding war, is there such a thing as winning that means anything. After WWII, we wiped out a large chunk of hate but we did not get rid of it. You cannot kill hate or greed, etc. Yet, we continue to send kids off to fight wars for the older and self-proclaimed wiser ones. For what. To alleviate some fear of some what-if scenario. It’s nothing more than an expensive aspirin. It temporarily makes the “hurt’ feel a little better but it does not fix anything.

Bosch

April 24th, 2009
4:09 pm

Taxpayer,

It was a fingernail. :lol:

Yes, even thought the English also “won” WW2 – I’ll bet their perspective of winning wasn’t quite the same as ours. The Russians officially “won” too – and yeah, look at what they lost.

Bosch

April 24th, 2009
4:10 pm

THOUGH, not THOUGHT – geez.

I Report/ You Whine

April 24th, 2009
4:12 pm

Blah, blah, blah, bookman has no idea who or what the suicide bombers were, he just jumps in to take advantage and hate on America, good for him.

Seems as though I remember that al Qaeda struck America, can we now call that a mob action?

It could have been Iranians meddling in Iraq’s affairs, it could have been Syrians, it could have been Egyptians, who knows what lunatic Islamic cult has been embolden by Obozo’s world surrender monkey tour?

Elections have consequences, from what I’ve heard.

RW-(the original)

April 24th, 2009
4:13 pm

Somebody help me out here, please. I keep googling variations of “Obama+victory declaration+Iraq” and can’t find anything.

Bosch

April 24th, 2009
4:17 pm

ByteMe,

And if we’d listened to Carter back in the day when he warned us about the dangers of being too reliant on foreign oil – well then, maybe this discussion wouldn’t be happening. Ya’ know?

RW-(the original)

April 24th, 2009
4:17 pm

Just got done scanning the “torture” thread and I’m amazed that the torture statute didn’t get misrepresented even once. Bravo!

Bosch,

Don’t get too heavily invested in your keyboard cleaning invention. You can get keyboards for about five bucks these days.

Bosch

April 24th, 2009
4:24 pm

RW,

Really? Bummer. Sigh. I was gonna be rich, rich, rich!!! Oh, well, at least I have a sparkly keyboard.

Hillbilly Deluxe

April 24th, 2009
4:25 pm

It’s true the Afghans handed the Russians their asses but where did they get the Stingers from?

Mike

April 24th, 2009
4:25 pm

What a silly straw man. Nobody has “declared victory”.

Is there still violence? Sure. Is the situation light years away from where it was last year? Absolutely.

Frankly, the only reason why these terrorist attacks take place at all is to give war-critics like Bookman something to write about. He sure isn’t going to write about the progress and the terrorists can count on him jumping in gleefully whenever one of their isolated attacks is perpetrated. Maybe if partisan pundits like Jay were not such predictable allies, terrorists would relent. That ain’t gonna happen, though. Their symbiotic relationship is too strong to be torn apart.

Jay, why don’t you show us that you really care about what is going on in Iraq and admit when progress is made instead of just jumping on isolated bad incidents and claim they are part of a trend?

Susan Myers

April 24th, 2009
4:26 pm

The Iraqis are fighting to gain control over the stockpile of WMD that only Cheney knows about.

TW

April 24th, 2009
4:28 pm

‘w’ paid the sunni and shiite hush money to keep it cool. That was the crux of the surge. Those payments recently stopped. Not only that, but we fully armed the sunni during the lull so they’ll be able to get it on big time with the shiite when the levy breaks.

Not that any of this will affect ‘w’s plush retirement. May the karma be true for any clown who voted for the idiot.

getalife

April 24th, 2009
4:31 pm

The consequences of the w disaster is far from over.

Give it a decade.

Get Real

April 24th, 2009
4:35 pm

What ‘progress’ are you referring to Mike? Do Iraqi citizens have power 24 hours a day? How many schools have been built? Infrastructure? How many IRAQI businesses have been able to set up show since the war started. I bet the oil is flowing though. Get Real man, Iraq was a boondoggle for Cheney and his friends. WMDs and Saddaam were only a ruse to get them there. There were plenty of other evil dictators who were for more closer to putting ‘mushroom clouds in the sky’ than S. Hussein. I can think of two right now.

Mrs. Godzilla

April 24th, 2009
4:35 pm

Mike, Palin did declare Victory in Iraq……

Jake

April 24th, 2009
4:38 pm

ByteMe – You give Carter credit for being prescient enough to know 1) the Soviets would invade Afghanistan, and 2) they would take a beating. My questions is, if he was that sharp, why couldn’t he get the hostages freed from a rag-tag bunch of militant students in 444 days? BTW, I agree the energy policy was one shining moment for him. Too bad the traitor Reagan destroyed the Department of Energy.

Bosch

April 24th, 2009
4:43 pm

Get Real,

“I bet the oil is flowing though”

Yeah, that reminds me of something – weren’t we supposed to get some of the oil money to pay for this war? Where’s that cash? WE’ve got to pay China.

I Report/ You Whine

April 24th, 2009
4:46 pm

The Oil Ministry’s spokesman stated on Sunday that Iraq will begin drilling to extract oil from a joint field with Kuwait, despite the absence of an agreement governing the investment in joint fields.

Google, Youtube and others started a campaign to develop communications in Iraq

Iraq’s stock exchange launched electronic trading on Sunday, listing shares in five local companies to start with but dreaming of bigger things to come.

British Development group discussed in Baghdad with a number of officials in the ministries of transport, industry, minerals and Construction and Housing, Municipalities and the General Authority for Investment the ways to support Iraq in a number of areas.

Iraq is increasing oil production to 6 million barrels within 5 years.

We’ve MovedOn, moonbats!

Mike

April 24th, 2009
4:47 pm

Mrs. Godzilla –

Quote and source please.

You know something like Harry Reid declaring the war lost:

“”I believe myself that the secretary of state, secretary of defense and – you have to make your own decisions as to what the president knows – (know) this war is lost and the surge is not accomplishing anything as indicated by the extreme violence in Iraq yesterday,” said Reid, D-Nev.”

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/18227928/

Or Bookman declaring the war lost in his knee-jerk opposition to the surge:

“”President Bush and others are proposing to escalate our effort in Iraq…It is a futile gesture, a vain attempt to salvage what is already lost…”

http://blogs.usatoday.com/oped/2007/01/skepticism_hope.html

Jake

April 24th, 2009
4:47 pm

ByteMe – I’d also suggest you research the known logical fallacy ‘post hoc ergo propter hoc’, which means just because one thing follows another it doesn’t mean it was caused by it. In other words, the Soviet defeat in Afghanistan had nothing to do with Carter’s Baptist missionary (a job he was imminently more qualified for) approach to foreign policy. Of course, after the Chinese invade and occupy the US I’m sure you’ll maintain that has nothing to do with Obama being a wuss.

Mike

April 24th, 2009
4:49 pm

I think Nir Rosen enunciates the position of most war supporters regarding Jay’s beloved terrorist attack:

“The occasional al Qa’eda suicide attack can still kill masses of innocent civilians, but it has no strategic impact; in fact it is difficult to understand what motivates such attacks today, since their effect is almost nil. It would be naive to say that Iraq’s future is certain, or even likely, to be a peaceful one, but the war between Sunnis and Shiites is now over.”

http://opinionator.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/04/24/morning-skim-iraq-pakistan-message-to-ahmadinejad-parsing-torture-and-more/#comment-139733

Bosch

April 24th, 2009
4:51 pm

Mike,

“a surge in Afghanistan also will lead us to victory there as it has proven to have done in Iraq,” — Sarah Palin

Mr. Snarky

April 24th, 2009
4:52 pm

Bush’s legacy…the gift that keeps on giving.

Mike

April 24th, 2009
4:57 pm

Bosch –

I am familiar with that quote and it seems to me that what she is saying (rather ineloquently) is that the surge in Iraq is leading us to victory there. It is a far less definitive statement than either Reid or Bookman’s declaration that the war is lost.

Mr. Snarky

April 24th, 2009
4:57 pm

“The occasional al Qa’eda suicide attack can still kill masses of innocent civilians, but it has no strategic impact; in fact it is difficult to understand what motivates such attacks today, since their effect is almost nil.”

Hmmm…the victims of the bomber and the people who live in the area might disagree with this statement.

One could say the 9/11 attacks didn’t have a “strategic impact”. It didn’t weaken our military or destroy our economy, aside from the victims, it mainly scared the hell out of everyone. Hence the label terrorism.

RealityKing

April 24th, 2009
5:03 pm

Reading this article makes one think that Jay has never read a history book. As if peace always suddenly takes hold after war..

Jay

April 24th, 2009
5:03 pm

Gee Mike:

Dick Cheney: “We have succeeded in creating, in the heart of the Middle East, a democratically governed Iraq. And that’s a big deal. And that is, in fact, what we set out to do.”

Jeff Jacoby, Boston Globe: “Even now, with a stubbornness born of partisan hostility or political ideology, there are those who cannot bring themselves to utter the words “victory” and “Iraq” in the same sentence. But six years after the war began, it is ending in victory.

Michael Goldfarb, Weekly Standard: “The result is that Obama has inherited victory in Iraq.”

Jack Kemp, The American Thinker: “On June 13th, there will be a veterans’ “Victory in Iraq Day” rally on the Washington National Mall. It is sponsored by the Gathering of Eagles and will have many speakers including Melanie Morgan of MoveAmericaForward.org.”

HR 208, co-sponsored by most of Ga.’s House delegation: “Resolved, that the House of Representatives …. (C) recognizes the importance and significance of victory in the Iraqi theater of the larger, global struggle against radical, Islamic Jihadist terrorists; … recognizing that a definable victory has been achieved in Iraq and that history will judge President Bush’s successor by his ability to maintain his predecessor’s victory .

Rep. Steve King, Republican from Iowa: “By virtually every measure, thanks to his adoption of the surge strategy, President Bush left office having secured victory in Iraq.”

Washington Times editorial: “President Obama constantly bemoans all the troubles he says he inherited from George Bush, but has never given President Bush due credit for the U.S. victory in Iraq.”

Sarah Palin: “So again, I believe that a surge in Afghanistan also will lead us to victory there, as it has proven to have done in Iraq.”

Bill Kristol: “You know, I want, we won that war and we paid great sacrifice to do so and I do not want to fritter it away because of a stupid campaign promise about a 16 month withdrawal and then an arbitrary deadline.”

There are more. Many more.

RealityKing

April 24th, 2009
5:05 pm

Not to mention the fact that Arabs have been killing each other for thousands of years..

RealityKing

April 24th, 2009
5:06 pm

What Jay also misrepresents is that most of those killed yesterday where Irianians, not Iraqis.

RealityKing

April 24th, 2009
5:09 pm

Thank God this ain’t 1809. Jay and Harry would have surely surrendered to England by now..

booger

April 24th, 2009
5:34 pm

From the tone of your article you sound almost Giddy at he news from Iraq. I hope I’m wrong, but I suspect not. You have a hugh investment in Iraqs failure.

@@

April 24th, 2009
5:34 pm

Well jay, the Iraqis just reached a deal on an oil pipeline to Iran. Maybe Ahmadenijad is blowing up those shiites who stand between him and his oil revenue. Hell! Stranger things have happened.

Jay

April 24th, 2009
5:37 pm

No Booger, that wasn’t my intention at all. My point was , well, the point I stated. That it is far too early to be pretending this thing is won.

TnGelding

April 24th, 2009
5:38 pm

It’s that weak, apologetic, teleprompter reliant, arrogant, lying Obama’s fault. He’s tarnishing the great victory for freedom he “inherited” from Bush/Cheney.

booger

April 24th, 2009
5:43 pm

Jay, Still the tone sounded like………..Nah nah nah, I told you so.

Mike

April 24th, 2009
5:54 pm

Jay –

Fair enough. You got me. I genuinely did not realize that so many folks were foolish enough to declare victory in Iraq.

That being said, do you think that folks like yourself who declared the war lost are equally foolish?

Mike

April 24th, 2009
5:56 pm

Jay –

One other thing. Is there something incorrect about the Cheney quote that you cite?

Cherokee

April 24th, 2009
6:07 pm

The Chinese are going to invade and occupy the United States? Is this what passes for conservative “thought” nowadays?

Paul

April 24th, 2009
6:11 pm

Susan Myers – Kamchak – @@ – Mrs. Godzilla

Just got back. Had a couple comments at the end of the torture thread if you’re interested.

Jay

Who’s this ‘we’ who declared victory? Not the interim guys – the guy who said it’s okay now to get out (well, not really ‘out’ – we’ll still need a few (Washingtonspeak for tens and tens and tens of thousands) troops there for a while (same as the Bosnia “we’ll be home by Christmas” a while)? What is that guy’s name? It escapes me at the moment….

There was a New Hampshire Congressman back during Vietnam – can’t remember his name – who said “let’s just declare victory and leave.” Now, there’s a thought!

Bosch

Someone downstairs said “ewww” to ‘mamallian.’ The obviously never saw Melanie Griffin saying “mamallian’ to Ed Harris in Milk Money!

getalife

It’s gonna have repercussions for a lot longer than a decade…

Paul

April 24th, 2009
6:12 pm

Bosch

Mammalian. Not mamallian. I was thinking of Melanie Griffin when I wrote it. Twitterpated. Completely twitterpated.

Tom

April 24th, 2009
6:19 pm

bUT TIMES ARE GOOD. aLL OUR WARS ARE GOING JUST AS PREDICTED. gEN BETRAYUS WAS TELLING HIS LIES AGAIN TODAY IN D.C. lET US CELEBRATE OUR BRAVE WAR HEROES THIS WEEKEND. aGAIN. aND AGAIN. AND AGAIN.
REGULAR WW II STUFF, THIS!

RW-(the original)

April 24th, 2009
6:23 pm

Mike,

Here’s what Jay B left out from the interview that produced the Cheney quote he cites.

King asked Cheney if it was “mission accomplished.”

“I wouldn’t’ use that term just because it triggers reactions we don’t need,” Cheney said. “But I would ask people in the press to take an honest look at the circumstances in Iraq today and how far we’ve come – the defeat of al Qaeda in Iraq, the writing of that democratic constitution, a series of elections that involve power sharing among all the various groups, the end of sectarian violence.”

Mike

April 24th, 2009
6:23 pm

Tom –

Thanks for you lucid and thought-provoking commentary. The shouting in caps really ties it all together.

Taxpayer

April 24th, 2009
6:24 pm

Paul,

The ‘mammalian’ ewww was due to envisioning Bosch cleaning out pieces of phalanges from his keyboard.

Paul

April 24th, 2009
6:26 pm

Taxpayer

Ewwww!! EEEEWWWWWWWWWWWWW!

I’d humbly suggest watching Milk Money to purge your mind.

Taxpayer

April 24th, 2009
6:49 pm

“We need to look at to make sure exactly what happened is known to the public and to deter any future president from doing like behavior, if it was wrong,” said one well-respected member of Congress. “In that regard, if we can do it in a bipartisan fashion, I think that’s what we should do. Every American benefits when you can control X abuse of power. If this was an abuse of power, then we need to know about it.”

It was February 2001 not April 2009. The topic was Bill Clinton’s controversial pardon of Marc Rich not the use of torture techniques on detainees. And the above quote was attributed to then-Rep. Lindsey Graham not, say, House Speaker Nancy Pelosi.

I guess ‘what goes around comes around’, eh.

Taxpayer

April 24th, 2009
7:02 pm

They really grow ‘em big…and dumb, big and really DUMB, in Texas.

…So Chu explains, correctly, that oil is formed through complex geological processes. And Barton is basically like: SO HOW’D IT GIT UNDER ALASKA, ARE THERE MAGIC TEXAS OIL PUMPS. And Chu basically says, no, there’s this thing called PLATE TECTONICS. And then Barton’s like, “WHOA, PLATES? THAT DOESN’T SOUND LIKE WHAT JESUS WOULD DO?”

Naturally, Barton, this idiot manchild from Texas, celebrated his accomplishment on Twitter:

I seemed to have baffled the Energy Sec with basic question – Where does oil come from? Check out the video. – HuffPo

Bosch

April 24th, 2009
7:40 pm

Come on, it was just a fingernail. My idea of a fun joke on a Friday. Sorry if I made bad mental images appear.

I’m not gonna even ask what twitterpated means.

TnGelding

April 24th, 2009
8:14 pm

Seriously, this is one of the reasons it wasn’t a good idea to invest American blood and treasure in Iraq. In Bush’s defense tho, he didn’t have an exit strategy because he intended on staying forever.

Taxpayer

April 24th, 2009
8:22 pm

Oops, Paul, did I forget to mention that Bosch said that it was a mammalian fingernail that he found. My bad. Then again, I’m not sure if fingernail qualifies as part of the phalanges.

jon

April 24th, 2009
8:55 pm

Jay,

I thought your man Obama was getting us out of the mistake of Iraq. Who cares what happens there now?

If there is a suicide bombing in Germany tomorrow, will that mean we lost WWII?

But Saddam and his boys ain’t developing weapons of mass destruction, violating UN sanctions, gassing kurds, or invading neighbors, are they?

Sweet victory.

I Report/ You Whine

April 24th, 2009
8:58 pm

You wanna talk blues and guitar work?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zISiQ6PqATI

You really have to admire that solo.

jon

April 24th, 2009
9:06 pm

How come Obama hasn’t caught OBL, yet?

TnGelding

April 24th, 2009
9:44 pm

jon

April 24th, 2009
9:06 pm

Any day now!

jon

April 24th, 2009
9:55 pm

I bet.

But OBL may surrender to BHO because he knows that success for BHO will mean much success for ALQ in the long run.

jon

April 24th, 2009
10:00 pm

And OBL knows that if he surrenders to BHO that he will receive the full protection of the US Constitution, If his lawyers don’t get him off, its six years in a Country Club prison then freedom.

TnGelding

April 25th, 2009
9:11 am

jon

April 24th, 2009
10:00 pm

Wanted, dead or alive! Day 2,682 and counting stopped. Mission NOT accomplished.

I’m not sure they want to catch OBL. It could trigger a worldwide awakening of the sleeper cells.

Red Foreman

April 25th, 2009
9:03 pm

In my dads day, victory was a mushroom cloud…

N.J,

April 27th, 2009
1:37 pm

Actually the violence has been this high for the entire time we have been in Iraq. Only now it is the Iraqi government that issues the figures, and they only consider Sunnis attacks on Shiites as terrorism, while the reverse is not considered terrorism. They are listed as anything from personal disagreements to domestic disputes rather than terrorism.

As far as Carter showing weakeness even the American Conservative Magazine this month stated that he was the bravest politician of the last 30 years because he told Americans the truth about what reliance on middle eastern oil would result in, and that included terrorist attacks on American soil:

The new anti-malaise coalition, Left and Right, agreed on a nationalism that regarded an America with any kind of limits as a place that could never be America in any meaningful sense. They believed in the divine American mission and the rhetoric behind it: “leader of the free world,” “the last best hope for man on earth,” “the shining city on a hill.” Carter’s speech, to them, was heresy. Thus Reagan, with help from other former liberals, could transform conservatism from a traditional doctrine of prudence, caution, and sustainability—a tough sell politically—into a highly marketable brand of American exceptionalism.

Unfortunately, as Carter feared, the American mission and lifestyle proved unsustainable. In the short run, the Saudis and other OPEC nations and oil producers slaked America’s dependence on foreign oil. The Chinese and other emerging industrial nations were willing to provide cheap consumer goods and buy U.S. Treasuries so that American consumers could have plenty of choices at the marketplace. This cut the inflation that bedeviled the Carter administration. In return, the U.S. military provided protection and stability around the globe through deficit financing. The hoped-for reduction of government that was a part of Reagan’s rhetoric was junked because it threatened to shatter the “you can have it all” coalition. Instead, government grew, in part through a neat trick called supply-side economics in which the New Deal, the New Frontier, and even the Great Society could be offered at low cost to taxpayers through massive levels of borrowing. Wrapped around all of this was a nationalistic attitude. The launching of a few cruise missiles every now and then disguised the loss of American economic independence.

After what happened to Carter, no American politician today is brave enough to ask for limits. Bush I said that our way of life is non-negotiable. Bush II told Americans to go shopping after 9/11. President Obama says Americans “will not apologize for our way of life.” President Carter is remembered as a weak man—yet no politician now (outside of perhaps Ron Paul) has the guts to make a similarly bold speech during our current economic crisis.

http://www.amconmag.com/article/2009/apr/06/00014//

The fact remains, if the United States did not have the sort of footprint it has in the Middle East because of our need for petroleum, 9/11 would never have occured, because its primary purpose, according to the planners of that attack was to get Americans to demand that the U.S. simply remove its troops from Islamic nations. If we had removed them 30 years ago, Al Qaeda would never have had a basis for even being created.