Sifting for truth in torture claims

Ali Soufan, an FBI interrogator, writes in the NYT yesterday that “for seven years I have remained silent about the false claims magnifying the effectiveness of the so-called enhanced interrogation techniques like waterboarding.”

But with the release of the memos, Soufan comes clean about his experience:

“One of the most striking parts of the memos is the false premises on which they are based. The first, dated August 2002, grants authorization to use harsh interrogation techniques on a high-ranking terrorist, Abu Zubaydah, on the grounds that previous methods hadn’t been working. The next three memos cite the successes of those methods as a justification for their continued use.

It is inaccurate, however, to say that Abu Zubaydah had been uncooperative. Along with another FBI agent, and with several CIA officers present, I questioned him from March to June 2002, before the harsh techniques were introduced later in August. Under traditional interrogation methods, he provided us with important actionable intelligence.

We discovered, for example, that Khalid Shaikh Mohammed was the mastermind of the 9/11 attacks. Abu Zubaydah also told us about Jose Padilla, the so-called dirty bomber. This experience fit what I had found throughout my counterterrorism career: traditional interrogation techniques are successful in identifying operatives, uncovering plots and saving lives.”

That’s important, because defenders of torture have tried to claim that Zubaydah coughed up information about Khalid Shaikh Mohammed only after “enhanced interrogation techniques” had been applied.

“There was no actionable intelligence gained from using enhanced interrogation techniques on Abu Zubaydah that wasn’t, or couldn’t have been, gained from regular tactics,” Soufan writes. “In addition, I saw that using these alternative methods on other terrorists backfired on more than a few occasions — all of which are still classified.”

Robert Mueller, head of the FBI, confirmed Soufan’s account in an interview with Vanity Fair published last December:

I ask Mueller: So far as he is aware, have any attacks on America been disrupted thanks to intelligence obtained through what the administration still calls “enhanced techniques”?

“I’m really reluctant to answer that,” Mueller says. He pauses, looks at an aide, and then says quietly, declining to elaborate: “I don’t believe that has been the case.”

President Bush, Vice President Cheney and others have claimed that waterboarding of Khalid Shaikh Mohammed allowed them to break up a conspiracy to attack Library Tower in Los Angeles using an airplane, just as al Quaida had done on 9/11. Former Bush speechwriter Mark Thiessen repeated that claim in a piece in the Washington Post this week.

Timothy Noah, writing in Slate, explains a pretty basic flaw in that claim:

“In a White House press briefing, Bush’s counterterrorism chief, Frances Fragos Townsend, told reporters that the cell leader (in the Libary Tower plot) was arrested in February 2002, and “at that point, the other members of the cell” (later arrested) “believed that the West Coast plot has been canceled, was not going forward” . A subsequent fact sheet released by the Bush White House states, “In 2002, we broke up a plot by KSM to hijack an airplane and fly it into the tallest building on the West Coast.”

These two statements make clear that however far the plot to attack the Library Tower ever got — an unnamed senior FBI official would later tell the Los Angeles Times that Bush’s characterization of it as a “disrupted plot” was “ludicrous” — that plot was foiled in 2002. But Sheikh Mohammed wasn’t captured until March 2003.”

114 comments Add your comment

I Report/ You Whine

April 24th, 2009
1:18 pm

So release the memos then, toady!

geez

I Report/ You Whine

April 24th, 2009
1:21 pm

These lib misdirection talking points coming off of bookman’s fax machine are really starting to become tedious, it’s like Charlie Brown’s teacher, Wa wa wa wa wa wa wa wa wah.

Couldn’t we talk about the weather or something mildly interesting?

zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

@@

April 24th, 2009
1:24 pm

It’s rare when a politician volunteers info. Cheney’s done that! Why not take him up on his offer?

DB:

Just checked downstairs to see if you engaged in our continuing discussion.

Are you Crap on Shoes too?

(ISH)

maxwell

April 24th, 2009
1:28 pm

I wonder if Sean Hannity will man up and accept Olbermanns challenge?

No I don’t wonder I already know the answer to my own question. Can I hear a resounding no!

http://videocafe.crooksandliars.com/heather/keith-olbermann-offers-sean-hannity-1000-endure

I Report/ You Whine

April 24th, 2009
1:29 pm

It is rather obvious though, the way these libs are whining about this Bushie aide and that technique, Pelosi’s as-s is in a gigantic bind.

I’ll bet she’s blinking furiously with all the horrible thoughts running through her empty head.

Which is fine with me.

DB, Gwinnettian

April 24th, 2009
1:31 pm

@@, yeah–obviously, I had intended that one-off joke name to last just long enough to reply to something Midori had posted.

(reloaded browser, it’s doing some odd things. My story/stickin’ to it.)

booger

April 24th, 2009
1:36 pm

Meanwhile George Tenet, who was hired by Bill Clinton states that enhanced interrogation is more valuable than any other program in the CIA or FBI.

So there is some disagreement. What’s new.

Hillbilly Deluxe

April 24th, 2009
1:40 pm

What’s going to happen here is you are going to have claims and counter claims. Some involved are going to say that they were involved in these interrogations and more information was revealed. Others like the man Jay cites are going to say they were involved in these interrogations and they didn’t work. Everyone on the outside is going to believe the side that they are already predisposed to believe anyway. Nothing is going to really get solved.

@@

April 24th, 2009
1:40 pm

My story/stickin’ to it.

Like crap to shoes?

Alrighty din…

but Pee-ew!!!

DB, Gwinnettian

April 24th, 2009
1:40 pm

IR/YW, weren’t you the one who was wanking furiously to visions of Rahm Emmanuel–your term–”goin’ down!”–over the Blogoyovich scandal some months ?

Excuse me if I file your current frenzy over Pelosi-in-bondage in the bozo bin.

Brian

April 24th, 2009
1:41 pm

Et tu, Brute? The only way to put the issue to rest is to release all the documents.

Dan

April 24th, 2009
1:43 pm

The simple fact that as a nation we are wringing our hands about waterboarding and putting a caterpillar in with a hardened terroist. Proves beyond any shadow of a doubt that we retain the moral high ground when it comes to “torture” or mistreaating prisoners of any kind. Be honest when some says the word torture do you really envision the things in those memos? I think not
Half the animals Obama has shaken hands with over the last month or so would torture their interrogators if they treated their prisoners as lightly as what is laid out in those memos

@@

April 24th, 2009
1:43 pm

Nothing is going to really get solved.

EXACTLY! and the reason being?

It’s in political self-interest.

jewcowboy

April 24th, 2009
1:45 pm

maxwell,

Thanks! That was great. I love this,”And so people who live where Sean Hannity lives and those safe places and the safe Cheney home where no one in the Cheney family would ever submit themselves to military service, ever submit themselves to the risk of torture. They think torture works because it would work on them.

Because they are soft. They are weak people compared to our military service people and they would crack under torture. But al Qaeda, people who have devoted their lives to destroying their enemy, the people are willing to die in their exercises, they were all willing to die on 9-11.”

Sums it up nicely I think.

Dan

April 24th, 2009
1:46 pm

Ok I did hear a pretty funny line on the radio this morning though. Apparently when congress was being breifed on these techniques in 2002 waterboarding was actually demonstrated. After observing that Pelosi asked what the name of that Spa treatment was. ;o)
Its a moisturizing technique Nancy

Northern Songs Ltd

April 24th, 2009
1:47 pm

For Gawd’s sake, let it go already.

George American

April 24th, 2009
1:49 pm

So what if nothing became of the “torture”? These ruthless Islam-O-fascist deserve what they get. If its not an effective interrogation technique, it is good and appropriate punishment!!!

Joey

April 24th, 2009
1:50 pm

“Making hay while the sun shines.” That is what Jay, his peers, his flock and the Democrats are doing.

The instant that a little waterboarding water splashes on one of their own, this entire issue will disapear.

@@

April 24th, 2009
1:51 pm

Oh! One more question DB…

since it was Mrs. G who had something stuck to her, does that make Mrs. G Midori?

Just kiddin’!

Who really gives a crap anymore when when the swapping is done among your bunch.

jewcowboy

April 24th, 2009
1:55 pm

So can the former Commander in Chief be prosecuted for dereliction of duty for hanging the military personnel at Abu Ghraib prison out to dry? Denying “enhanced interrogation practices are going on, yet giving orders for them to practice them?

“The United States is committed to the worldwide elimination of torture and we are leading this fight by example.” GW Bush 2003

“On United Nations International Day in Support of Victims of Torture, the United States reaffirms its commitment to the worldwide elimination of torture. Freedom from torture is an inalienable human right, and we are committed to building a world where human rights are respected and protected by the rule of law…Throughout the world, there are many who have been seeking to have their voices heard, to stand up for their right to freedom, and to break the chains of tyranny. Too many of those courageous women and men are paying a terrible price for their brave acts of dissent. Many have been detained, arrested, thrown in prison, and subjected to torture by regimes that fail to understand that their habits of control will not serve them well in the long-term.” GW Bush 2005

DB, Gwinnettian

April 24th, 2009
1:57 pm

it is good and appropriate punishment!!!

Due process is for pussies, man!

jewcowboy

April 24th, 2009
1:57 pm

“We do not torture.” GW Bush 2007

jewcowboy

April 24th, 2009
2:00 pm

Why was waterboarding torture during WWII when we convicted Japanese soldiers of it, but not now?

mm

April 24th, 2009
2:04 pm

Didn’t Cheney break the law by talking about the content of classified documents (the ones detailing the successful extraction of informaton)? But then again, if he knows it’s illegal to do this, maybe he’s lying because he knows these documents really don’t exist, therefore he’s not breaking the law. Food for thought.

I beleive he outed a CIA agent also. Seems to be a pattern.

Mrs. Godzilla

April 24th, 2009
2:05 pm

Holder will investigate. More documents will be released.
(Funny about those destroyed torture tapes ain’t it?)

The new pictures will hit the media next month.

The public outrage will continue to grow.

If prosecutions are called for, no matter what political flavor, so be it.

It is un-American to torture or support its practice.

@@

April 24th, 2009
2:06 pm

To the average person this would be embarrassing. Pelosi’s not average….she’s above us all.

Pelosi Says She Was ‘Never Briefed’ on Waterboarding

However, leading Republicans this week insisted that members of the intelligence committees and congressional leaders were briefed on the interrogation techniques.

“It is the responsibility of the executive branch to inform the committee,” Pelosi said. “They didn’t come to consult. They came to notify.”

Is there a difference? Was she gagged or somethin’?

On Dec. 9, 2007, The Washington Post reported the following: “In September 2002, four members of Congress met in secret for a first look at a unique CIA program designed to wring vital information from reticent terrorism suspects in U.S. custody. For more than an hour, the bipartisan group, which included current House Speaker Nancy Pelosi (D-Calif.), was given a virtual tour of the CIA’s overseas detention sites and the harsh techniques interrogators had devised to try to make their prisoners talk.

@@

April 24th, 2009
2:07 pm

Cheney declassified the documents.

Joe Matarotz

April 24th, 2009
2:08 pm

No matter how you slice it, torture is morally wrong.

booger

April 24th, 2009
2:10 pm

I can’t wait til Jay reports on something relevent. Remember the good old days in Atlanta before it was found to be an economic disaster. Jay and the rest of his buddies at the AJC used to report city news all the time. This was when Dame Shirley was a national figure and could do no wrong.

How times have changed. We appear to be in a “news blackout” now that things aren’t going so well. Kinda reminds me of the news coverage of Obama’s Europe trip. By all measures it was a disaster, but only the good stuff was reported. I think we will miss out on a lot of news in the next few years unless it,s some ten year old conserative dirt.

mm

April 24th, 2009
2:11 pm

@@,

Oh yeah, then why haven’t they been released yet?

getalife

April 24th, 2009
2:12 pm

Had to leave Hot Air.

Too much evil for me to stomach.

Gates told us about the 2000 con porn photos but the final outrage will be the Red Cross report.

Taxpayer

April 24th, 2009
2:12 pm

They do not torture, jewcowboy. They hire others to do it so they can throw them under the bus as they continue to play out the fat, dumb and happy Sgt. Shultz role.

jewcowboy

April 24th, 2009
2:13 pm

So why exactly is any of this a problem for Democrats or Obama? All of this was done while Republicans were in charge of the White House while this was going on, and in charge of Congress for most of the time while this was going on.

If anything, all of Cheney’s talk will boomerang back and bite the Republicans in the butt.

George American

April 24th, 2009
2:14 pm

It is unAmerican to lay down in front of a morally corrupt enemy. We can be weak an appease the Islam-O-fascist and we will end up like the Jews, Slavs, Poles and Gypsies during WW#2.

Jake

April 24th, 2009
2:17 pm

Bookman, we’ve already had a torture blog this week, how abour something new? Here’s an idea.
1. Obama announces withdrawal timeline for Iraq.
2. Obama demonstrates ‘new’ foregin policy of weakness toward our enemies in meetings with Suadis and South Americans.
3. Bombings in Iraq increase.

ty webb

April 24th, 2009
2:19 pm

mm,
just because you believe cheney outed a cia agent doesn’t make it true. many people on this blog believe many things that just don’t hold up to facts.

jewcowboy

April 24th, 2009
2:19 pm

Taxpayer,

Like Brigadier General Janis Karpinski, Colonel Thomas Pappas, Lieutenant Colonel Steven L. Jordan, Specialist Charles Graner, Corporal Joshua Lee Betts, Staff Sergeant Ivan Frederick, Sergeant Javal Davis, Specialist Jeremy Sivits, Specialist Armin Cruz,Specialist Sabrina Harman, Specialist Megan Ambuhl, Private First Class Lynndie England, Sergeant Santos Cardona, Specialist Roman Krol, Specialist Israel Rivera, and Sergeant Michael Smith.

All staff at Abu Ghraib punished for doing what they were evidently ordered to do by the White House.

mm

April 24th, 2009
2:21 pm

George,

Go hide under your bed.

jewcowboy

April 24th, 2009
2:21 pm

Then disavowed by the cowards in the White House when it became politically advantageous to cut them loose.

jewcowboy

April 24th, 2009
2:21 pm

Nothing like Republicans respecting our troops.

mm

April 24th, 2009
2:22 pm

Ty,

Still in denial huh?

ty webb

April 24th, 2009
2:25 pm

mm,
yeah, of course I’m in denial of what you “believe”.

Midori

April 24th, 2009
2:27 pm

Dave R

April 24th, 2009
2:32 pm

jewcowboy,

The White House “evidently ordered” Lynndie England to hold a leash on naked Iraqi under our control, huh? The White House “evidently ordered” these troops to strip them naked and pile them on top of one another, right?

Let’s see the memo on that one, cowboy.

You must be on the same stuff Susan Myers is one. What is it? I want to order some.

Or can I just get some from a local dealer on the street corner?

Mrs. Godzilla

April 24th, 2009
2:33 pm

Obtained: Cheney’s Request Form Detailing The Two CIA Torture Docs He Wants

here:

http://theplumline.whorunsgov.com/torture/obtained-cheneys-request-detailing-the-two-cia-docs-he-wants/

@@

April 24th, 2009
2:36 pm

mm:

Oh yeah, then why haven’t they been released yet?

You’ll have to ask the new administration why that is.

I saw Hillary being questioned on why those documents haven’t been released. Rather than answer the question, she offered a personal opinion of Dick Cheney. I was disappointed. I thought she could do better than that. A direct answer to the question would have been preferred.

Bosch

April 24th, 2009
2:38 pm

Speaking of torture – has anyone ever cleaned off the keys of their keyboard? Keyboards are nasty.

@@

April 24th, 2009
2:41 pm

Mrs. G:

One could argue that waterboarding wasn’t used that often and when so done, rendered results.

Mrs. Godzilla

April 24th, 2009
2:42 pm

IT IS BEING REPORTED ….

out of New York’s 20th that Republican Jim Tedisco may concede the race this afternoon.

Mrs. Godzilla

April 24th, 2009
2:43 pm

@@

One could also argure that Jesus lept off the cross and suggested we
torture the centurions…..but it would be nonsense.

Paul

April 24th, 2009
2:44 pm

[[So release the memos then, toady!]]

Report/Whine nailed it with the first post.

If nothing was gained then there’s no problem with releasing the information, correct? So what’s the holdup?

@@

George Carlin had a good routine about people who ‘gave a crap.’ He didn’t want to be around them. Said he wanted to hang out with folks who left one.

your 2:06 – reprint from prior thread:

Did anyone catch Speaker Pelosi’s denial of her involvement with waterboarding last night? Her choice of words should have set off alarms to anyone listening: she said she was briefed, but “we were NOT, I repeat NOT, told waterboarding, or any other of these enhanced interrogation techniques, WERE used.” “Were used.” That’s past tense. She said she was not told it had happened.

True. But misleading. So misleading as to be an intent to deceive. I think that’s in the ballpark of Jay’s “Lie” definition. Earlier she stated, “”On one occasion, in the fall of 2002, I was briefed on interrogation techniques the Administration was considering using IN THE FUTURE. The Administration advised that legal counsel for the both the CIA and the Department of Justice had concluded that the techniques were legal.”

So one time she admits getting briefed on what was going to happen and she remained silent, no objections. Then when it comes out she says “I was not told they were used.” Because she was briefed on what was planned, not what had happened.

jewcowboy 2:00

[[Why was waterboarding torture during WWII when we convicted Japanese soldiers of it, but not now?]]

Japanese military were not tried under US Criminal Statutes. Wasn’t even written then. Anyone in the Bush Administration would be tried under those statutes. And therein lies a big, big difficulty: several of those the Left have targeted are lawyers, who advise, not policymakers. Do we really want to set a precedent of prosecution for giving an opinion?

Y’know, Congress could amend Title 18. But just like amending law to make prosecution of those who out CIA agents, for all their loud and mighty outrage…. they haven’t even tried.

your 2:19

[[All staff at Abu Ghraib punished for doing what they were evidently ordered to do by the White House.]]

That’s just plain incorrect. There were two factions at the prison – undisciplined, unsupervised Army and a black unit. The photos came from the Army boneheads. The Army general in charge – Kapinski – was a disgrace who effectively abdicated her command. Her initial whining about the presence of ‘other’ units not under her command was weak and ineffective. She’s lucky she only lost a star. Her credibility is shot.

But ordered by the White House? When the onsite general in charge is clueless, saying the lowest-ranking troops were ‘ordered by the White House’ strains credibility.

mm 2:04

No, Cheney did not break any law or violate any rules dealing with revealing classified information with what he said.

And he didn’t out a CIA ‘agent.’ That was Richard Armitage, Deputy at State. Altho it was probably the agent’s husband who first used the term ‘covert.’

Mike

April 24th, 2009
2:44 pm

Let the witch hunt continue.

Just don’t start complaining when partisans on the right respond by demanding a similar investigation of Clinton’s illegal extraordinary rendition program. Or when the hard left comes after Obama for war crimes regarding his assassination of terrorism suspects with missile strikes in Pakisitan.

Partisan pundits like Bookman and Hannity are too focused on ideological warfare to care about the consequences of their witch hunts. They just feel the need to try to destroy any politician who doesn’t share their narrow views.

Here’s to another eight years of partisan warfare in which the only winners are the arms merchants like Bookman and Hannity.

RealityKing

April 24th, 2009
2:52 pm

Jays and the progressive media are just blowing smoke for liberal democrats that are right now spending away our children and grandchildren’s futures. The man who once hounded republicans for spending billions is now covering while democrats are spending trillions.

Does anyone here not understand why the AJC has lost its connection to its paying community??

Mike

April 24th, 2009
2:53 pm

Quick question to the group:

Which is more illegal and immoral:

1) The waterboarding of three terrorists who everyone agrees were the architects of 9/11

2) The forced internments of 120,000 innocent Japanese-American citizens in 1945

Paul

April 24th, 2009
3:00 pm

Mike

People here don’t discuss “more” illegal or “more” immoral. They are absolutists. Everything’s black and white, right or wrong. There is no Greater Good or Lesser Evil. There’s not even an acknowledgment that something good may come from something bad.

Unless it’s breaking the law like speeding. But not too much ’cause everybody does it. Or cheating on taxes. That’s not really wrong, either. Or telling a lie so you don’t hurt your spouse’s or mom’s feelings.

But if it has to do with other stuff that people here are never involved in, well, that’s different.

Bosch

April 24th, 2009
3:00 pm

Mike,

Seriously? You don’t rank morality – it’s like saying one sin is worse than another.

Things are MORE right or MORE wrong. Sometimes there is a gray area, of course.

And, BTW, there is no such circumstance where “everyone” will agree to something.

Mike

April 24th, 2009
3:04 pm

Bosch –

Thanks for the hair splitting. Let me rephrase and maybe you can actually address the question instead of getting philosophical:

Which was MORE wrong:

1) The waterboarding of three terrorists who everyone agrees were the architects of 9/11

2) The forced internments of 120,000 innocent Japanese-American citizens in 1945

Bosch

April 24th, 2009
3:04 pm

Paul and Mike,

Morality is all about context and perspective. There is never an absolute in those circumstances so therefore you can’t rank morality. That’s sort of absurd.

RealityKing

April 24th, 2009
3:06 pm

Government that grows to consumes more than 18% of GPD is immoral and should be illegal.

Paul

April 24th, 2009
3:07 pm

Bosch

[[And, BTW, there is no such circumstance where “everyone” will agree to something.]]

Get real. It’s early afternoon on a Friday and already you’ve gone off the deep end. Sheesh.

EVERYONE agrees Battlestar Galactica was one of the most important tv shows of all time. Now or future.

Anyone who doesn’t, doesn’t know what they’re talking about. So they’re irrelevant. They don’t count. Every one who does know, agrees.

Double sheesh.

George American

April 24th, 2009
3:07 pm

On a relative international ranking on morality:

USA #1

As I just did, you can rank morality.

Mike

April 24th, 2009
3:08 pm

Here is an interesting perspective on the real-world response to the partisan witch-hunt, specific to the ACLU’s demand for realease of photos of the interrogations:

“But some experts say the move could have a chilling effect on the CIA even beyond President Obama’s decision last week to release the so-called “torture memos.”

Calling the ACLU push to release the photographs “prurient” and “reprehensible,” Dr. Mark M. Lowenthal, former Assistant Director of Central Intelligence for Analysis and Production, tells ABC News that the Obama administration should have taken the case all the way to the Supreme Court.

“They should have fought it all the way; if they lost, they lost,” Lowenthal said. “There’s nothing to be gained from it. There’s no substantive reason why those photos have to be released.”

Lowenthal said the president’s moves in the last week have left many in the CIA dispirited, based on “the undercurrent I’ve been getting from colleagues still in the building, or colleagues who have left not that long ago.”

“We ask these people to do extremely dangerous things, things they’ve been ordered to do by legal authorities, with the understanding that they will get top cover if something goes wrong,” Lowenthal says. “They don’t believe they have that cover anymore.” Releasing the photographs “will make it much worse,” he said.”

http://blogs.abcnews.com/politicalpunch/2009/04/obama-adminis-3.html

Anyone have any dount that the current witch hunt will result in talented folks avoiding counter-terrorism in the CIA, if not avoiding the CIA all together. And for what? So Jay and other partisan pundits can settle some old scores. What a bunch of heroes.

Paul

April 24th, 2009
3:08 pm

RealityKing

I though ‘illegal’ was a sick bird…

RealityKing

April 24th, 2009
3:09 pm

Sorry George,

countries that murder more than 1 million of its unborn babies per year can not have that much moral direction.

Mike

April 24th, 2009
3:10 pm

Bosch –

I phrased the question as you deemed appropriate. Are you going to answer it, or stick to ducking it on philosophical grounds?

Bosch

April 24th, 2009
3:11 pm

Seriously, has anyone ever spent more than a few minutes cleaning their keyboards? I’ve been cleaning my keyboard off an on all day, and keyboards are really gross. I think I’ve invented a new keyboard cleaning tool – I’m gonna be rich!!!

RealityKing

April 24th, 2009
3:12 pm

Socialistic Ameirca…, “illegal”, ..same thing Paul.

Bosch

April 24th, 2009
3:12 pm

Mike,

They are both wrong – one is not MORE wrong than the other. Sorry, my head doesn’t work like that.

Ya’ want to be an investor in my new keyboard cleaning tool – we’d be rich!!!

RealityKing

April 24th, 2009
3:13 pm

Just put your lips together and blow Bosch…, surely you don’t need a new tool for that.

Paul

April 24th, 2009
3:14 pm

Bosch

I’ve used a 409-type cleaner with a towel and q-tips.

Then I bought a new keyboard. Black. Never needs cleaning!

Taxpayer

April 24th, 2009
3:15 pm

I ‘murdered’ another two eggs for my daughter’s breakfast this morning. I like…eggs.

RealityKing

April 24th, 2009
3:16 pm

Neither is wrong…, when protect the innocent is most important.

George American

April 24th, 2009
3:17 pm

Sorry RealtyKing, but by definition you can’t murder the unborn. They are not born and not alive. Ergo murder them is no possile.

USA still #1 on the international morality ranking.

Mike

April 24th, 2009
3:18 pm

Bosch –

Being that FDR’s actions are as wrong as Bush’s, do you think it is appropriate that he is hailed as one of our great Presidents?

Depending on your keyboard, you can actually submerse it in water and let it dry out. Gets all the gunk out.

Bosch

April 24th, 2009
3:20 pm

Paul,

Oh, you are wrong! I have a black keyboard too, and yuck. I’ve been using the cotton off of q-tips, and dipping it in alcohol, and then…….

What I am doing? I’m giving away my secret!!! Paul, you almost got me. Ya’ wanna invest? I’d be willing to bet a kidney that I have the cleanest keyboard of anyone on this blog right now.

The junk that gets underneath those keys — ewwww.

Taxpayer

April 24th, 2009
3:21 pm

The national debt increased under both Bush I and Bush II and under Reagan.

Tray

April 24th, 2009
3:21 pm

I say we do whatever is necessary to save AMERICAN LIVES. I’m sorry, but i don’t care much about anyone else besides Americans, and that’s my opinion, and it’s neither wrong nor right. Why should I? Do they? Maybe some, but not all. I am an equal opportunity offender, and you only have that right in America, and that right is fading fast…

RealityKing

April 24th, 2009
3:21 pm

Just turn it over and bang it on the desk. Keyboards are free in the business world…

Bosch

April 24th, 2009
3:23 pm

Mike,

You can really do that? To your keyboard?

FDR is hailed as one of America’s greatest Presidents because of a collection of his actions, and some would argue that point with you. Was that wrong to inter those Japanese people? Yes, it was. But he was acting out of fear just like Bush was.

And it also helps his case that we actually won WWII. Iraq is still in question – who know how history will treat Bush, but I don’t think it’ll be too kind.

ESR

April 24th, 2009
3:24 pm

We need to make the trust-fund rich kid Princeton/Columbia/harvard/Yale grads who make up the ACLU sit and watch the video tapes of all the beheadings and then make them watch what we are said to have done and see which they think is real torture. Heck, let’s do a seance and conjur up the dead and ask them, given a choice, to pick the waterboard or the sword. Then let’s find out how much of this old (and mean really old) Pelosi knew and how much of the interrogation methods she was privy to and start connecting the dots. You Bushwhackers don’t need to be so fast at giving pardons to everyone in Congress with a (D) beside thier name and treat both sides of aisle equally and fairly. You’re saying the sitting Speaker of the House didn’t know and approve any of this and she she should come out of all this smelling like a rose? She smells like something, that’s for sure, but it’s not a rose. Meanwhile …back at the ranch I sit back and watch my freedoms disappear and I lose them one by one like water running through my hands. All this over some misdirected hate of a man no longer in power. Amazing.

Bosch

April 24th, 2009
3:25 pm

Tray,

You a Christian? Jesus is so disappointed in you right now.

Mike

April 24th, 2009
3:26 pm

Bosch –

Yep, you can submerse your keyboard, as long as it is a traditional corded board without batteries.

Fair enough on the FDR-Bush question.

Kamchak

April 24th, 2009
3:26 pm

The ticking time bomb–pleeeeeease someone play the ticking time bomb card

Taxpayer

April 24th, 2009
3:27 pm

If terrorists had committed a second attack after 2001 that was comparable to the first one and we had not invaded Iraq, fewer innocent people would have died and we would have less debt and thus less difficulty dealing with actually going after terrorists and fixing the economy.

Bosch

April 24th, 2009
3:27 pm

Reality King,

But you still can’t get all the guck out if you bang it on the desk. I swear my little mission today has been the equivalency of an archaeological dig.

Paul

April 24th, 2009
3:30 pm

Bosch

[[The junk that gets underneath those keys — ewwww.]]

So stop looking underneath it! Problem solved.

If you want a real gross-out, run a cleaning cloth over your telephone. Nightmare time.

Bosch – Mike too

Are conventional ideas of morality appropriate when conducting business between countries? Or in situations where one’s national interests are at stake?

Or are some things wrong no matter what, but what is ‘wrong’ varies according to some arbitrary standard?

your 3:25

Guilt trip time? got a little Calvinism in the gene pool, eh?

RealityKing

April 24th, 2009
3:31 pm

Thats what IT Support people are for Bosch..

Bosch

April 24th, 2009
3:31 pm

Mike,

I’ll remember that the next time I spit Coke all over my keyboard – which is why I’m sure my keyboard was so gross. I almost did it with the comment from Tray – I’m so glad I held off and it went through my nose instead – all that hard work was almost for naught!!!

Dale Gribble's GOP

April 24th, 2009
3:34 pm

So I just submerged my laptop. Now what?

Paul

April 24th, 2009
3:35 pm

Kamchak

Forget the ticking time bomb card. What did you think of the Stratfor article that said we started down this tortured road in response to a massive intelligence failure spanning a decade? And that given the situation, what happened was understandable? But the Administration screwed up the execution?

Taxpayer

April 24th, 2009
3:40 pm

Did you find any missing phalanges, Bosch, during your archaeological dig?

Bosch

April 24th, 2009
3:40 pm

Reality King,

Come on – IT people are WAY too arrogant to clean keyboards.

Paul,

What conventional moralities? There are only so few – like don’t kill people, don’t steal from people – wait a minute – nix that one – we’re talking international business right? Well, don’t kill people.

Ben

April 24th, 2009
3:40 pm

If we are going to prosecute lawyers for giving legal opinions you don’t agree with, can the next President prosecute Obama’s advisors for telling him it’s ok to steal $10 trillion from American taxpayers?

Bosch

April 24th, 2009
3:42 pm

Taxpayer,

Believe it or not – yes. I did find part of one.

Taxpayer

April 24th, 2009
3:45 pm

ewww, Bosch. Mammalian?

Bosch

April 24th, 2009
3:46 pm

Taxpayer,

Yes it was.

Tray

April 24th, 2009
3:48 pm

I am a Christian, and He may have told you He was disappointed, but He’s not. You see, God gave me free will-the ability to THINK FOR MYSELF, which is why I am not a liberal or a democrat, they follow the herd mentality. God’s free will also allows me to love and hate, not just one. Be fair to your own feelings and emotions and you will Always get into His kingdom, because you were true to yourself.

George American

April 24th, 2009
3:49 pm

Good point ESR. The same should true for late term abortions.

Bosch

April 24th, 2009
3:53 pm

Tray,

I was talking about Jesus. But yeah, your reply was pretty much as I mentally predicted. Carry on witht the hating of everyone except Americans. Good luck with that.

@@

April 24th, 2009
4:09 pm

Paul:

George Carlin was so funny. A fan of humanure?

I was over at Wooten’s earlier and linked to that picture. All the time I’m wonderin’ what purpose the whisk broom and flowers served.

Imagine! All it takes is a five gallon bucket, some dead trees (sawdust) and all our environmental problems are ca….capoot. The family pets will just have to find another water source.