Waterboarded 183 times….in a month
So Abu Zubaydah, a half-crazy mid-level Al Qaida “fixer”, is captured in Pakistan. Questioning begins. Zubaydah coughs up a lot of info, including information that helps lead to the identification of Khalid Sheikh Muhammad as the mastermind of the 9/11 operation.
But in Washington, high-level officials aren’t satisfied. They want more. Over the protests of experienced interrogators, they demand the application “alternative” interrogation techniques. But as the Washington Post recently reported:
“In the end, though, not a single significant plot was foiled as a result of Abu Zubaida’s tortured confessions, according to former senior government officials who closely followed the interrogations. Nearly all of the leads attained through the harsh measures quickly evaporated, while most of the useful information from Abu Zubaida — chiefly names of al-Qaeda members and associates — was obtained before waterboarding was introduced, they said.
Moreover, within weeks of his capture, U.S. officials had gained evidence that made clear they had misjudged Abu Zubaida. President George W. Bush had publicly described him as “al-Qaeda’s chief of operations,” and other top officials called him a “trusted associate” of al-Qaeda leader Osama bin Laden and a major figure in the planning of the Sept. 11, 2001, terrorist attacks. None of that was accurate, the new evidence showed.”
The New York Times reports the story as well:
“Abu Zubaydah had provided much valuable information under less severe treatment, and the harsher handling produced no breakthroughs, according to one former intelligence official with direct knowledge of the case. Instead, watching his torment caused great distress to his captors, the official said.
Even for those who believed that brutal treatment could produce results, the official said, “seeing these depths of human misery and degradation has a traumatic effect.”
C.I.A. officers adopted these techniques only after the Justice Department had given its official approval on Aug. 1, 2002, in one of four formerly secret legal memos on interrogation that were released Thursday.
A footnote to another of the memos described a rift between line officers questioning Abu Zubaydah at a secret C.I.A. prison in Thailand and their bosses at headquarters, and asserted that the brutal treatment may have been “unnecessary.”
Quoting a 2004 report on the interrogation program by the C.I.A. inspector general, the footnote says that “although the on-scene interrogation team judged Zubaydah to be compliant, elements within C.I.A. headquarters still believed he was withholding information.”
….”You get a ton of information, but headquarters says, ‘There must be more,’ ” recalled one intelligence officer who was involved in the case. As described in the footnote to the memo, the use of repeated waterboarding against Abu Zubaydah was ordered “at the direction of C.I.A. headquarters,” and officials were dispatched from headquarters “to watch the last waterboard session.”
Now The New York Times reports that in the course of that “alternative” interrogation, Zubaida was waterboarded not once, not twice, not a half dozen or a dozen times, but 83 times.
Eighty three times.
Muhammed, on the other hand, was reportedly waterboarded 183 times.
Now, some will undoubtedly argue that the two men deserved it, and that Muhammed in particular was a deserving target. I’m glad to hear that talk, because at least it gets us closer to an honest conversation.
The argument that “they deserved it” implicitly accepts that what happened was about punishment, not about interrogation. It wasn’t about reluctantly doing what was necessary to get information to save lives, it was about revenge and putting a serious hurting on people.
Over and over again.
Of course, in addition to his role in 9/11, Muhammed is believed to have been the man who beheaded Daniel Pearl. So we in turn waterboarded him 183 times. That doesn’t mean we’ve gotten even with him, that we’ve exactly matched his cruelty with our cruelty.
But we’re a little more even than we ought to be, given how we’re supposed to be all civilized and all, the nation of laws, the shining city on the hill, the beacon for all others.
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253 comments Add your comment
Corporal
April 20th, 2009
10:16 pm
AmVet:
My heart goes out to you too ….. I mean that sincerely.
Red Foreman
April 20th, 2009
10:25 pm
Hey Jay, if it saves ONE American life its worth if!!!!
You are an effn TArd!
jewcowboy
April 20th, 2009
10:32 pm
Red Foreman,
And all you have to give up is your humanity.
TW
April 20th, 2009
10:32 pm
Dave R – I believe the Spanish Inquisition lasted into the 1830s – if that’s what your looking for. Writing a paper?
I think the problem is today’s self-proclaimed, chest thumping Christian is pretty much a turd. What’s sad is that real Christians don’t call these POS out. Instead, they join right in, representing Christ in a most dreadful light. i.e. – the massive kneeling in front of ‘w’ as he wiped his backside with The Bible.
No doubt, at this very moment, there is a soul in need of God who will turn away at His mere mention because of what they have seen from those who claim to carry the message. Actually, one could make a very good argument for the devil having had a very good decade.
Forgive the rightwing, for they are simply fearful morons, easily mislead for no other reason than their vote.
md
April 20th, 2009
10:34 pm
TW,
Try harder, Plumbing = rule of law. Hardly.
We aren’t discussing inventions, innovations, etc.
Is that the race card in your second sentence?? Tell me you can do better than that.
So, by your post, you advocate for ignoring laws you don’t agree with??
Wouldn’t it be better to work on changing the laws vs following the ones you deem sufficient?
I believe your way is called anarchy. Should we all pick and choose the ones we don’t like? That should prove to be very interesting, deadly, but interesting.
TW
April 20th, 2009
10:42 pm
md – I find your nostalga for slavery repulsive. Perhaps your enthusiasm for turture and your disdain for ‘illegals’ stems from your inability to own a few today?
At any rate, yes – I reserve the right to change laws and do not agree with your assertion that the US exists in a state of anarchy today because it has righted previous wrongs by having changed laws.
TUESDAY VANDY GIRL
April 20th, 2009
10:47 pm
obamas TALK has produced no results..the EU said no tos ending more troops to afghanistan even though obama called them “dude”, NK told Obama to drop dead and launched their missile, and the Iranians version of talks will entail calling Israel the devil..oh..and the headline of the sumit of the americas was “no consensus reached”..talk..it sure is productive
when I have an argument with my parents, boyfriend, next door neighbor, friend, cousin or anybody. It won’t get settled until THEY accept MY view…talk is cheap
liberal larry
April 20th, 2009
10:53 pm
calm down francis
md
April 20th, 2009
10:56 pm
You like that race card don’t you. Classic argument when one has nothing.
I see your reading and interpretation skills may also need a little work as well. Try actually reading what others post, it may help.
You reserve the right to change laws?? I would hope through legal means, otherwise your post really makes no sense.
Taxpayer
April 20th, 2009
11:00 pm
when I have an argument with my parents, boyfriend, next door neighbor, friend, cousin or anybody. It won’t get settled until THEY accept MY view…talk is cheap
Dang, vandy girl, are you sure that you are not a closet Democrat. I mean, to post that without so much as cracking a
took some self-control that simply is not present in members of the minority party. Further, acceptance of your view, by those that dared to disagree with you, did not even involve a pre-emptive strike. Talk IS cheap and that’s why any true Republican worth his (or her) weight in salt prefers to shock and awe or, at the very least, torture others around to their way of thinking.
Taxpayer
April 20th, 2009
11:03 pm
Wow. Look at the time. Us old retirees do need our sleep. Six AM comes earlier with every passing year.
arcticredriver
April 21st, 2009
1:12 am
Your article was correct to describe Abu Zubaydah as unimportant. But the DoD and DoJ have quietly dropped the allegation that he was ever a member of al Qaeda.
The Taliban hosted hundreds of thousands of refugees of conflicts in neighboring countries like Uzbekistan and Tajikistan. And they hosted dozen of small militant groups — some from the neighboring strife torn countries, others from Arab countries.
What the public record supports is what Abu Zubaydah testified to at his Combatant Status Review Tribunal. He worked in the management of the Khalden training camp — an Afghan training camp set up during the war against Afghanistan’s Soviet invaders — back when the CIA was allied to the groups the USA now considers enemies. His camp predates the Taliban and al Qaeda.
The public record confirms a key element of Abu Zubaydah’s testimony. A jealous Osama bin Laden regarded the camp Abu Zubaydah helped manage as a rival to his camp, and the Taliban shut it down at his request. He regarded Abu Zubaydah as a (minor) rival, not a follower.
Bryan
April 21st, 2009
2:58 am
Does the AJC pay you to copy and paste reports from other Newspapers? How long did it take you to throw this together? 3 minutes?
Tim
April 21st, 2009
3:20 am
The point is that we are a nation of laws. These were to be interrogations to get information.The fact is this was torture- the same that we prosecuted Americans and Japanese for after WW2. Did any of you critics read this article? These tactics will do more to harm our country’s security than anything else. Vigilante justice is alive and well in the old south.
md
April 21st, 2009
6:45 am
“The point is that we are a nation of laws”
Except whens it comes to immigration.
Laws mean nothing when a nation decides to pick and choose the ones they will follow. We can’t have it both ways.
Bud Wiser
April 21st, 2009
6:51 am
You know, somebody could probably make some money with the Torture Here – Torture Now bumper sticker.
Hmmmmmmm…………
Paul
April 21st, 2009
7:06 am
All played out?
Maybe a follow-on to this thread, such as the likelihood the Obama Administration will respond to Cheney’s request to declassify reports detailing what, if anything, worthwhile was learned from waterboarding?
Well, lessee how we’re doing with the Culture of Corruption. We’ve already heard about the Rep. Jane Harmon bribery/influence peddling/”I’m innocent ’cause it’s an NSA wiretap” case. Now we have this courtesy the Washington Times:
“On the day the new Congress convened this year, Sen. Dianne Feinstein introduced legislation to route $25 billion in taxpayer money to a government agency that had just awarded her husband’s real estate firm a lucrative contract to sell foreclosed properties at compensation rates higher than the industry norms.”
Ah, well, maybe the Feds can use that $100 million we’re gonna save from all that Federal spending to pay for the contract.
Kudos to Speaker Pelosi for cleaning things up in only two and a half years! Bravo!
Or maybe something light. Like the gay judge who asked Miss USA contestant Miss California if she believed in gay marriage. She said ‘no’ and finished as a runner-up. Then judge Hilton said she didn’t lose because of her answer – she lost because she’s a ‘dumb b!tch.” Ah, tolerance. I love the new climate. Such change in only…. from what point do we measure? When Liberals took Congress? Or both Congress and the White House? Either way, progressive progress is on the move!
Taxpayer
April 21st, 2009
7:06 am
Word is that there is yet another memo set to be released — one that Cheney should enjoy. It’s supposed to be just a casual conversation between he and Rumsfeld.
“What’s the score,” one asks the other. “I think it’s 183 to 83 but let me ask to make sure,” is the reply. “Do you give up yet,” the first one asks. “Yes, here’s your dollar. But, I’ll beat you on the next round.”
Paul
April 21st, 2009
7:10 am
G’ morning, Taxpayer
Isn’t it nice to know Cheney, Rumsfeld, Pelosi and Rockefeller were all on the same page? Personally, I think it’s not quite the bipartisan cooperation many had in mind.
totally personable
April 21st, 2009
7:12 am
Bookman, would you be crying this liberal drivel if you’d lost someone in these attacks? I did, and I say, it should have been 184 times times 184 times for this waste of skin. I would have done it myself on behalf of my brother who died in the north tower. So stow the namby pamby attitude and understand its a big ugly world out there as much as you liberal twits think it isn’t and you can save it from itself.
RC
April 21st, 2009
7:19 am
Waterboard Bookman!
Taxpayer
April 21st, 2009
7:22 am
And the criticism doesn’t seem to bother the president – during a February rally in Austin, Texas, Obama dismissed the former vice president, saying “When Dick Cheney says it’s a good thing, you know that you’ve probably got some big problems.”
Go Obama. Tell that uppity Dick what he can do with his opinion now that he’s gone limp — powerless, inconsequential, reduced to a talking head on FOX. hehehehe
I Report/ You Whine
April 21st, 2009
7:26 am
That if you are an American leader, it is a mistake of magnitudes to let tyrants make a fool of you period, whether in private but especially in public. The photo of a grinning Obama yukking it up with Hugo Chavez, unchallenging as he accepts a book glorifying socialism, is surely being closely studied by less than scrupulous men from Tehran to Afghanistan, from Beijing to Moscow to Havana. Chavez self-evidently sought to publicly tweak the President, to pull his chain, and see what resulted. Just as Khrushchev tried the same with Nixon fifty years ago this July. Chavez got a notably different response from Obama than Khrushchev did from Nixon. For that there will, almost certainly, be repercussions.
These tinpot socialist cut throats have already waterboarded our little tard Obozo and they got all the information they’ll ever need.
eewwwww.
Paul
April 21st, 2009
7:39 am
Taxpayer
[[“When Dick Cheney says it’s a good thing, you know that you’ve probably got some big problems.”]]
So Cheney wants to end an instance of gov’t secrecy and declassify reports of torture sessions? Any idea why Pres Obama considers that a big problem?
Copyleft
April 21st, 2009
7:45 am
So it seems the right-wingers have entirely abandoned their notion of “the rule of law” that was so popular under Clinton. Now it’s all about vengeance, and the Constitution be damned if it gets in the way!
That’s not even cowboy thinking… that’s pure, Neanderthal thuggery. Sorry, torture fans, but America is better than that–and better than you.
Pat
April 21st, 2009
7:49 am
Once more for the ‘tards: We prosecuted Japanese commanders for waterboarding our troops in WWII. We did so because it is, by all definitions, torture, and a WAR CRIME – and everyone knew it, and agreed it was – until Bush and his hand-picked thugs at Justice decided it wasn’t. The degree of legal maneuvers and the memos between the White House and Justice show the enormous efforts Bush made to conceal and re-define the crime; they knew he, Cheney or whoever gave the order would be subject to war crimes prosecutions at the Hague.
And whether we torture or not has nothing to do with them and whether or not they “deserve it.” It has to do with whether or not we want to be a civilized nation, or a lawless rogue state. This terrorist may well have deserved it – and God will judge him. The point is, we tortured hundreds of prisoners that in retrospect, were determined NOT to “have any real value” in terms of the crimes they were suspected of. What do we say, “sorry?” No, tell the truth – people just wanted to get their rocks off by killing or torturing as many of “them” – Muslims, Arabs, Middle Easterners – as possible. As country singer Alan Jackson confesses in a song about 9/11, “I’m not sure I know the difference between I-rack and I-ran.” Understandable – but Bush and Co. had no such excuse.
Copyleft
April 21st, 2009
7:54 am
Well said, Pat! Too many folks are so lost in impotent “revenge” fantasies that they don’t even care whether the person we’re torturing is even guilty of anything!
The point is, it doesn’t matter. The United States does not condone, practice, or permit torture–PERIOD. And waterboarding, categorically, IS torture; there’s just no way around admitting that.
That’s what having principles means: you stick by them, even when your enemies don’t. Is that a disadvantage? Sometimes. Is it more important than being true to your founding ideals? Only if you’re a stinking coward, as so many torture-fans apparently are.
Paul
April 21st, 2009
7:57 am
Pat
Japanese commanders were not prosecuted under US Criminal Law. They were prosecuted for violations of laws and customs of war. As this case shows, US law still has a large loophole when it comes to this particular technique. Any idea why the Democratic Congress has not moved, after all these years, to close the loophole?
War crimes? Ahem… are you making the point we are at war? I kinda think we have to be at war, and do something illegal under the applicable laws or customs of a particular type of war, before a violation of those laws or customs can be charged.
Y’know, that’s a good point – some here have made the point the Bush Administration was merely following the customs of war laid down by those who declared the war. I’m gonna have to think about that…
God will judge them? Which God? Some of those gods out there seem to approve!
We tortured ‘hundreds’?!!? A few detainees were waterboarded, which is what the thread was about, now you know ‘we’ tortured ‘hundreds’?!!? Wow. Who’s this ‘we’ and who are the ‘they’?
DB, Gwinnettian
April 21st, 2009
7:59 am
Hey Jay, if it saves ONE American life its worth if!!!!
You are an effn TArd!
Hey, Bud–there’s another winning bumper sticker for ya as well.
Peadawg
April 21st, 2009
7:59 am
And why is this a scandal?
I Report/ You Whine
April 21st, 2009
8:04 am
Once more for the ‘tards: We prosecuted Japanese commanders for waterboarding our troops in WWII.
Blah, blah, blah, the last democrat to successfully prosecute a war shot and electrocuted enemy spies and saboteurs.
He wasn’t brainwashed, I guess.
I like this though, Obozo shook a few preselected memos at Bushie, now Bushie has Obozo trapped like an ignorant animal.
Release ALL of the torture memos, dullards.
bwa
Mrs. Godzilla
April 21st, 2009
8:07 am
Y’all know my stand on torture.
It is sick and twisted and evil. Folks who support it cannot call
themselves people of faith or patriotic. Folks who do it get a perverted sexual charge from it. They will pay with their souls.
Shawny
April 21st, 2009
8:10 am
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/04/20/AR2009042002818.html
“In releasing highly classified documents on the CIA interrogation program last week, President Obama declared that the techniques used to question captured terrorists “did not make us safer.” This is patently false. The proof is in the memos Obama made public — in sections that have gone virtually unreported in the media. “
Paul
April 21st, 2009
8:14 am
Mrs. Godzilla
G’morning to you, too!
I agree with most of that. Not sure about the sex pervert part, though. Don’t really want to think about it.
But that does lead to an interesting line of thought. 60 Minutes last Sunday had a piece on a student who was imprisoned in Iran for the last eight years and continually tortured. We interact, trade with and support governments who have a sanctioned, legal system of justice that has as ‘penalties’ practices nearly everyone here would define as torture.
So, do we enable these evil practices to continue by, if not giving moral and material support to these governments, remaining silent?
Taxpayer
April 21st, 2009
8:19 am
These so-called Republicans can apparently justify anything that they need to because they have an interpretation of a text that saves their sorry buttocks no matter what they do. What next. Will the Republicans bring back witch trials and Vlad the Impaler. Anything goes once you open up that box and they obviously had no problem doing just that. Now, where was that passage about vengeance is mine. Never mind, that was Old Testament stuff, wasn’t it. It doesn’t apply to the radical fundamentalist fight fire with fire eye for an eye I’m saved not matter what because I believe, does it. And, exactly how do these Republicans like Cheney and Rumsfeld and others truly differ from Hussein or bin Laden. If it weren’t for their attire, I don’t think that there would be a difference. They’ve all been in bed together for so many years that marriage would just be a technicality.
Peter
April 21st, 2009
8:20 am
Anger, Hate, Anger, Hate, Anger, Hate…………repeat Republican’s………Anger Hate, Anger, Hate, Anger, Hate………… don’t you feel better Republican’s ?
Now why did George Bush give Bin Laden a FREE PASS ?
Because you didn’t have the Balls to say something !
Howard
April 21st, 2009
8:22 am
As a country, as a president, as an individual…we are what we do, not what we say we do. If we torture, we are torturers…If we say we do not torture and we torture, we are liars and torturers. President Bush’s words and deeds defined his presidency. It is a shameful legacy for him and for our country.
AmVet
April 21st, 2009
8:24 am
William Jefferson Clinton shot and electrocuted enemy spies and saboteurs?
danjonglee
April 21st, 2009
8:29 am
NY times source for the 183 times is a left wing blogger. Great source…
Paul
April 21st, 2009
8:30 am
Taxpayer 8:19
Pelosi and Rockefeller are Republicans? Or were Republicans when they liked this stuff and then they converted to Democratic?
AmVet
I think that’s what Hillary wanted to do to him a time or two…
I Report/ You Whine
April 21st, 2009
8:31 am
No, but he did bomb the Chinese Embassy, which I thought was pretty cool.
danjonglee
April 21st, 2009
8:35 am
“The new information on the number of waterboarding episodes came out over the weekend when a number of bloggers, including Marcy Wheeler of the blog emptywheel, discovered it in the May 30, 2005, memo.
The sentences in the memo containing that information appear to have been redacted from some copies but are visible in others. Initial news reports about the memos in The New York Times and other publications did not include the numbers.”
AmVet
April 21st, 2009
8:45 am
Paul, I love your sense of humor! Something that one is ofttimes hard to find here.
My rhetorical question at 8:24 got me thinking though; who was the last successful Republican “Wartime President”?
Was it Lincoln?
(I’m not counting Ronnie’s successful War on Grenada.)
I guess it had to be Bush41, who was “successful”. Unless that meant regime change!
One day, the history of the modern GOP is gonna read like a comic book. But with tragic consequences…
Conventional Wisdom
April 21st, 2009
8:50 am
I have one question. “What if the person is INNOCENT?” Is it worth torturing an innocent person, just to “MAYBE” get some information that you could obtain thru other means. I’m all in for punishing the guilty to the fullest, but I just not that confident that the Government gets it right 100% of the time.
sd
April 21st, 2009
8:53 am
“On the contrary, war hysteria is continuous and universal in all countries, and such acts as raping, looting, the slaughter of children, the reduction of whole populations to slavery, and reprisals against prisoners which extend even to boiling and burying alive, are looked upon as normal, and, when they are committed by one’s own side and not by the enemy, meritorious.”
Orwell “1984″ Part 2, Chapter 9
Paul
April 21st, 2009
9:11 am
AmVet
I’ll have to go with Bush the Elder, too. But regime change was not part of the UN mandate and Bush wasn’t gonna go unilateralist. Cheney supported no regime change and gave as one reason the quagmire that would result.
That’ll be one of the enduring mysteries of the last Bush Administration. Who was that man and what did they do with Dick Cheney?
Mrs. Godzilla
April 21st, 2009
9:16 am
TAKE ACTION: Tell Congress To Hold Impeachment Hearings Against Judge Jay Bybee
here:
http://thinkprogress.org/impeach-jay-bybee/
md
April 21st, 2009
10:28 am
“Y’all know my stand on torture.
It is sick and twisted and evil. Folks who support it cannot call
themselves people of faith or patriotic. Folks who do it get a perverted sexual charge from it. They will pay with their souls.”
Funny how the word torture can be interchanged with the word abortion and many on the left will suddenly defend it to the last breath.
Killing – OK, Torture – not so much.
The arrogance is astounding.
jewcowboy
April 21st, 2009
11:25 am
md,
And funny how this opposite is true on the right.
Mrs. Godzilla
April 21st, 2009
11:27 am
If only Saddam Hussein had been smart enough to solicit a legal opinion from his government lawyers that gassing people was within the law, he could have been playing golf in Myrtle Beach right now.
–David Kurtz
Mrs. Godzilla
April 21st, 2009
11:34 am
md…
so you will protect a blastocyst, a zygote, an embyro and a fetus….
but you will torture an adult human being? and you have the gall to use the word arrogance.
would you be willing to do it yourself? attach the battery cables?
pour the water? stack them naked? would you wrap yourself up in the flag and listen to toby keith cd’s?
The difference between us md, is I don’t believe life begins at conception, so to me their is no life taken. You think life ends at birth so your beating and slamming and starving an adult human being means nothing to you.
you are a sick, sick, puppie.
md
April 21st, 2009
1:33 pm
I never said I would torture for the sake of torture, but If a terrorist was caught red handed and my loved one’s life depended on it I certainly would. Doubt about innocence – no. Guilty as sin – yes.
Remember, Daniel Pearl never got to be “uncomfortable”.
And to ease your concious because you have created an arbitrary definition about the origins of life is pretty sick as well. A seed is a seed is a seed. After that it is a creation. But you go ahead and use your definition to convince yourself if that makes you feel better.
J Thompson
May 5th, 2009
1:46 pm
NYT and Bookman got it wrong. The water was poured 183 times, there were not 183 waterboarding sessions. That’s like saying I ate chocolate cake 25 times, if it took 25 bites to eat a piece.