Does the right to life include the right not to die?
Do people have a right to health care? That’s the crucial question — the question that resolves many lesser questions — in the ongoing debate over health care reform.
Personally, I’d say yes, of course people have a right to health care. Others argue no, they don’t.
When it comes down to it, though, I doubt most of the opponents really mean it. They may mean it in a political sense, in an ideological or theoretical sense. But they don’t mean it where it counts, in real life.
In real life, here’s how the question would be put: Are you willing to deny life-saving surgery to Mr. X, a father with two children, on grounds that he or she could not afford it? Would you allow Mr. X to die?
If your answer is yes, then you sincerely don’t believe people have a right to health care.
However, if your answer is no, you would not be willing to deny life-saving care to Mr. X, then at some level you do believe that access to health care is a right and the whole debate changes.
Having crossed the threshhold of whether to treat that person, the question becomes how. How will you pay for it? How will you provide it?
At the moment, we’re trying as a society to straddle the fence. We won’t insure the millions of uninsured, because we haven’t accepted that health care is a right. But we also won’t turn the uninsured away from the emergency room, because we actually sort of do believe that health care is a right.
As a consequence of that indecision, we provide health care to the uninsured in the most expensive, irrational and inefficient means possible. It’s a bad system for everybody involved.
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157 comments Add your comment
Corporal
April 14th, 2009
1:06 pm
YES, INCLUDING UNBORN CHILDREN.
Reminds me of a bumper sticker I once saw …. “Equal Rights for Unborn Women”.
MikeH
April 14th, 2009
1:17 pm
Do I have a right to demand that you provide a service for me under any circumstances, even if it is life or death? I don’t think so.
Remember, folks, it’s not about the right to have healthcare, it’s about the right to not be forced into servitude by our government.
Don’t forget – the ‘government’ consists of PUBLIC SERVANTS, not RULERS. Don’t be fooled into thinking they have all the answers.
Hillbilly Deluxe
April 14th, 2009
1:24 pm
I’ve said before that I readily admit I don’t have the answer to our health care problem. I do believe however, that in the richest country in the world nobody should go without health care. The actual medical part of our health care is good but the business side doesn’t work.
Corporal: (off topic)
Just finished reading “Born Fighting”. Thanks for the reminder to read that. I really enjoyed it.
pat
April 14th, 2009
1:26 pm
There is no doubt what so ever that the current state of health care in this country is a travesty. That does not mean I support in any fasion a nationalized health care system. That would be a tragedy in itself. Replacing a bad system with another bad system is stupid. Unfortunately, this is one of those circumstances where tax payers will have to shouder the burden of non-payers, at least to some extent. We need foreign competition in drugs and services to drive prices down. We need to streamline billing as much revenue is lost in the process. Yes, we must have a provision for those who cannot pay, from the tiniest of humans to the oldest. But all those who can pay should pay.
Illegals recieving free services must be restored to health and deported.
These are some ideas…
We cannot sacrafice quality and expediency for quantity, but ths system cannot continue as it exists.
Vinny
April 14th, 2009
1:30 pm
Jay, We provide immediate, life-saving health care to people because we are humane, not because they deserve it. Obama wants to provide all health care, whether people actually need it or not, including dental to all people. I’m getting tired of explaining to you libs that this has been tried over and over in other countries and it doesn’t work. America will end up with a sub-standard medical care system, people will go on waiting lists and die before their number comes up.
Nice try in trying to twist the argument, but some of us are smarter than to buy the crap you are trying to peddle Jay.
DB, Gwinnettian
April 14th, 2009
1:33 pm
How will you pay for it?
A combination of taxes from the usual sources plus specific witholdings, similar to how we fund FICA/Medicare now.
How will you provide it?
A swift transition to a single payer health insurance program.
Instead it will be slow and painful, but sooner or later that’s how it will be done.
Wyld Byll Hyltnyr
April 14th, 2009
1:33 pm
To properly consider Jay’s formulation, one must first determine that which “a right” is, as he calls it,
Behind only the Virgin Birth and the Resurrection, the American Revolution is the single greatest event known to mankind. The American Revolution forever changed, much for the better, the course of civilization and history.
Prior to the American Revolution, rights were granted to the common folk on the whim of those in power. The true genius of the American Revolution was the recognition that certain “inalienable” rights were granted by the creator. This seemingly transition from rights granted by a ruling class to rights inherent in the individual, G-d given as it were, was the genesis of the American Age in which civilization grew at an unmatched rate.
Jay, know wants to return to a world where rights are divvied up by the ruling class as evidenced by the rhetorical, “Would you allow Mr. X to die?” On the other hand, when one believes in G-d given rights which extend inherent value to each life, the question of whether “healthcare” or for that matter, life itself, becomes moot.
Life is a G-d given right, while healthcare is clearly is not. Healthcare is no more a right than a 48” vertical jump or a very fast metabolism. By blurring the right between actual rights and the whims of man, the liberals open the door to a nihilist, collectivist society that would surely rot America from within.
Truth
April 14th, 2009
1:37 pm
I just dont believe that I should have to pay for someone elses healthcare. If Mr. X was dying, I would probably donate to his surgery. Here is a thought… If Mr X is dying, then why not force the doctor to do the surgery for free instead of forcing me to pay for it??? Nothing is free. Someone somewhere is paying for it. Plus, this is a ploy for the government to control us just a litle more!
Taxpayer
April 14th, 2009
1:38 pm
Jay, I think we have a right to a healthy environment. We have a right to know just what companies would have us purchase from them for a profit. We have a right to limit what people can do to make a buck. Are those peanuts safe to eat. Will that cigarette kill me. How much mercury or antibiotics is in that fish. How much toxic waste was dumped on the land next to my house and how much is in my water… I think if we had a little more emphasis on a sound environment and healthy lifestyles, then low-cost health care would come more naturally. That is, unless you think health care for all should cover breast implants (other than re-constructive surgery) and tummy tucks and viagra and other such items. My grandmother lived to be 99 years old and she died while walking through her house and her heart just finally quit pumping. As I recall, the only major health issue she ever had was a bad hip joint that had to be replaced. I only wish that we could all live such lives.
DB, Gwinnettian
April 14th, 2009
1:39 pm
Behind only the Virgin Birth and the Resurrection, the American Revolution is the single greatest event known to mankind.
DB, Gwinnettian
April 14th, 2009
1:40 pm
I just dont believe that I should have to pay for someone elses healthcare.
Did mommy and daddy ever sit you down and explain how insurance works?
RealityKing
April 14th, 2009
1:40 pm
Emergency service to easy suffering is a right, much like the bad health habits of Mr X..
Truth
April 14th, 2009
1:42 pm
DB, Gwinnettian… I dont have to pay for insurance you jackass.
DB, Gwinnettian
April 14th, 2009
1:44 pm
Truth, so you get paid under the table, do you? Is that how you avoid paying FICA/Medicare?
Only in the Land of Demotardia
April 14th, 2009
1:45 pm
Bookman, you hack, when will you Dem semi-men give back your shared intellectual tampon and man-up to the real questions.
For instance, why are SEVENTY-TWO percent of black children born to unwed mothers? Why are FIFTY-ONE percent of Hispanic children born to unwed mothers? When these communities begin to care for their children half-as-much as they want me to care for them, then I’ll listen to your offish liberal whining.
And then there’s that question you Libtards can never seem to answer: how much does your neighbor have to pay to keep you alive one more day?
demwit
April 14th, 2009
1:46 pm
If healthcare is a right, then why not food? Food is much more important than healthcare, therefore it should be a right too. And water! Can’t live 2 days without water, therefore water should be a human right. And oh yeah.., that’s clean food and water!
And what about pooping. Is that a right?? Should be. I should be able to poop anywhere I want, even in the AJC’s front office. It’s my human right after all…
DB, Gwinnettian
April 14th, 2009
1:46 pm
Some myths about Canada’s single payer system dispelled here (I figure the usual trolls will trot out some of them, so why not head ‘em off at the pass…)
Taxpayer
April 14th, 2009
1:46 pm
Truth, I think you missed DB’s point about how insurance works — if you choose to join in, that is.
Truth
April 14th, 2009
1:47 pm
DB, you are a complete moron. FICA/Medicare is a tax.
Doggone/GA
April 14th, 2009
1:48 pm
“That does not mean I support in any fasion a nationalized health care system”
Congratulations…you’re in good company, then. Neither does Pres. Obama.
Taxpayer
April 14th, 2009
1:49 pm
Only in the Land of Demotardia presents a scenario where statistics are nothing more than a tool to use to fool. It might be instructive to look at headcounts as well. And, don’t forget to include the majority in the numbers.
Red
April 14th, 2009
1:50 pm
It stands to reason that if you line up an additional 43 million or so people who aren’t in line now to receive health services, the wait time will increase Vinny.
dbm
April 14th, 2009
1:51 pm
It is better to let Mr. X die than to set up a system based on government coercion. It is OK to save Mr. X’s life if it can be done without coercion.
If we banned the automobile, we could save a lot of people from being killed in automobile accidents. Should we do this?
jewcowboy
April 14th, 2009
1:51 pm
I always love the arguent of I shouldn’t have to pay for it. I don’t want to pay for roads I don’t use, tax credits for marriages I can’t have and a whole host of other things, but I live in a society not on an island by myself.
Why are the people against universal healthcare also the ones that tend to spout the bible? Wasn’t there something in there about being your brothers keeper and looking out for the less fortunate in the world?
DB, Gwinnettian
April 14th, 2009
1:52 pm
Truth, two questions:
1) What does the “I” in FICA stand for? and
2) Are you seriously suggesting that Medicare isn’t an insurance program? really?
Copyleft
April 14th, 2009
1:52 pm
As you can see, Jay, you have clearly overestimated the humanity of many far-right conservatives. Most would be eager to deny Mr. X life-saving surgery if it cost THEM, personally, any money.
That’s why conservatives have no place in civilized society. I strongly encourage them to leave and quit sponging off the rest of us for those benefits they clearly believe they don’t deserve and haven’t earned.
BS Aplenty
April 14th, 2009
1:52 pm
DB Gwinnettian
I think somebody needs to explain to you the difference between a business and a charity. Health insurance companies/underwriters generally make money when their premium receipts and investment earnings exceed claims. If this number is positive, the company prospers. If not, then the company goes out of business.
It’s called the free market.
Hillbilly Deluxe
April 14th, 2009
1:52 pm
In real life, here’s how the question would be put: Are you willing to deny life-saving surgery to Mr. X, a father with two children, on grounds that he or she could not afford it? Would you allow Mr. X to die?
If you don’t pay for Mr. X’s surgery and he dies, then you’re going to have to pay to raise his kids. Wouldn’t it be better and cheaper to pay for the surgery?
Hillbilly Deluxe
April 14th, 2009
1:53 pm
Sorry bout screwing up the italics thing.
ByteMe
April 14th, 2009
1:53 pm
I don’t think health care is a “right”.
However, I think that as a society, we are coming to a decision point to include “health care” as a chosen benefit, like Social Security and Medicare for the elderly. To talk about it like it’s a “right” puts it into Constitutional terms that offend some folks. However, to make it a national decision to add that feature to our list of country benefits is something that makes sense.
Personally, I think it ought to look like “health care bankruptcy prevention” insurance, but that’s not really the topic at this point.
Truth
April 14th, 2009
1:55 pm
No it isn’t because government takes it out of my check as a TAX!!! The name doesn’t define its meaning.
ty webb
April 14th, 2009
1:56 pm
I believe that Mr. X does not have a right to someone paying for his healthcare. I do however think that as a civilized society we have a moral obligation to see that he has his life saving surgery. If we deny him his surgery, then we have to answer to someone higher than the federal government. His surgery is no more a right than food is a right to someone starving. That’s not to say I shouldn’t help Mr.X or a starving person. I just shouldn’t be forced to help by the federal government.
Night Train
April 14th, 2009
1:58 pm
Please explain where the Constitution of the USA states that health care is a right?
Susan Myers
April 14th, 2009
2:00 pm
Each American should have health care. My European friends’ stories of no pay hospitalization and physicians makes me weep. How can our country be so callous and absurd as to put vanity projects above and beyond the most basic human needs? British citizens might wear the same tweed jacket for 5 years but they receive top notch care AND taxi fare.
Truth
April 14th, 2009
2:00 pm
Nicely said ty webb!
Gandalf, the White!
April 14th, 2009
2:00 pm
I THINK YOU SHOULD PAY FOR IT BOOKMAN!
DB, Gwinnettian
April 14th, 2009
2:02 pm
No it isn’t because government takes it out of my check as a TAX!!! The name doesn’t define its meaning.
I’m not sure whether the funding is voluntary or not really matters. If it does, then I guess my car insurance is also a “tax”, since it’s mandated. But your point is taken. I didn’t want to turn this into a huge deal, just pondering how far you took your original statement, that you “just dont believe that [you] should have to pay for someone elses healthcare.”
You might feel that way, true, but you already are and have been for as long as you’ve been working, presumably.
Gandalf, the White!
April 14th, 2009
2:05 pm
THE CONSTITUTION IS NO LONGER VALID. THE PEOPLE ELECTED KING BARRY. SOCIALISM LEADS TO EITHER COMMUNISM OR ISLAMIC RULE. BOOKMAN IS ALL FOR THIS, BECAUSE HE HAS THE MENTAL DISORDER KNOW AS LIBERALISM.
Such people rarely think, because it may offend someone. I am glad the SEAL team offended the terrorists hold our fine Sea Captain this morning.
Truth
April 14th, 2009
2:05 pm
Ok, point taken as well… I dont think I should have to pay any more for someone elses healthcare.
Mrs. Godzilla
April 14th, 2009
2:06 pm
Well put, Jay. I support Health Care as a right.
For those who don’t, can you loan us your back yards…..we’ll need a place to stash the corpses.
BS Aplenty
April 14th, 2009
2:15 pm
Jay, with all this liberal angst and charitable feeling flowing one would think that some “enterprising young libtard” (now there’s an oxymoron) would start the ultimate health care charity. A charity to subsidize all these deserving health care cases.
You could pledge ten percent of your employment bounty as well as that of every other lib who voted for Obama, let’s say 120MM people in all. That might net you $1.25 after the administrative, pilfering, excess salary, and outright thievery by the organizers. Still, it’d make you feel better.
Night Train
April 14th, 2009
2:19 pm
So if we don’t pony up for ‘free’ health care, you want to take our land to bury the bodies. Priceless!
Netbanker
April 14th, 2009
2:20 pm
I don’t think that healthcare is right, but then again I don’t view a job or a home as a right either. All of them are privileges for which one must work. Why can’t Mr. X or his wife work part time at Waffle House to gain access to private insurance? I know several of their older employees who work weekend shifts just to guarantee that they have insurance and healthcare in order not to be a burden or to do without. Do they want to do this? No, but they do it because it’s a self-sufficient means to an end.
And what does Mr. X having two children have to do with it? Does this mean that if Mr. Y has the same condition and also can’t afford the surgery, but has no children that Mr. X should get his procedure first?
Mrs. Godzilla
April 14th, 2009
2:21 pm
Night Train…..
the word I used was LOAN……
inability to understand definition of word….PRICELESS and TYPICAL
Netbanker
April 14th, 2009
2:23 pm
“If we deny him his surgery, then we have to answer to someone higher than the federal government.” Ahhhh, but one could argue that “someone higher than the federal government” planned for Mr. X to have this disease because it’s his time therefore forcing others to pay for it in order to save Mr. X’s life is playing God.
booger
April 14th, 2009
2:25 pm
I lived for three years in England. Were you to pose your question to their national health plan the answer would be, Yes we would withhold life saving surgery if you were over 60 years old for certain procedures. Also joint replacements are withheld for those over 55 years old.
You can however, pay for these things in the private health sector.
Canada rations as well, but you do not have the option of private health care.
BDAtlanta
April 14th, 2009
2:26 pm
This is about prevention, too. If you think about it in terms of non life-threatening issues it offers another view.
For example, anyone who is a parent with kids in school knows there are other kids around them all day long and sometimes they come home with a virus, lice, etc., that they didn’t have to go out of their way to get.
A parent with no or inadequate healthcare can’t take a day off to keep their kid out of school and probably can’t afford a babysitter so the kid can stay at home while they go to work. So, they send the kid to school. If you deny people health care or price it out of their range, you have more sick kins coming to school and, as a result, more sick kids everywhere.
And what about when the parent gets sick and they have no healthcare and no sick days to stay home out of work? They’re walking around breathing on the rest of us. The more sick people we have walking around, the sicker we are as a society.
It’s worth it to watch the Michael Moore movie “Sicko” just to see what it’s like for people to live in a society without fear of getting sick. It’s really weird to see Canadians stopping at Sears to buy insurance before they will come into the US because they know if something happens to them here, they will lose their shirt and end up in a world of debt.
Mrs. Godzilla
April 14th, 2009
2:28 pm
Netbanker
Waffle House gives health insurance to part time employees?
AmVet
April 14th, 2009
2:29 pm
Right now, the United States spends $7,129 per capita on health care—more than twice as much per capita as the rest of the industrialized world.
And yet, the United States performs poorly in comparison on major health indicators such as life expectancy and infant mortality
While other industrialized nations like Canada and Sweden provide comprehensive coverage to their entire populations, the United States leaves 50 million completely uninsured and tens of millions more under-insured.
According to an Institute of Medicine report, 18,000 Americans die each year because they cannot afford health care.
And inability to pay for medical bills is the leading cause of bankruptcies – they currently contribute to about half the bankruptcies in all of the United States.
In our current system, there are thousands of different payers of health care fees.
This system is a bureaucratic nightmare, wasting $350 billion—close to a third of all health care spending on things that have nothing to do with health care—overhead, underwriting, billing, sales and marketing departments, huge profits and exorbitant executive pay.
In addition, there is over $200 billion in computerized billing fraud and abuse.
So, to my way of thinking, these neo-conned Bush drones “discussing” the sorry state of American “health care” is like a neo-con “discussing” military strategy. Or geopolitical realities. Or climate change. Or capitalism. Or science and technology. Or education. Or…
A complete waste of time.
But then, their “input” is not really an issue any more, is it boys and girls?
Night Train
April 14th, 2009
2:29 pm
When you dump trash on someone else’s property, how is that a loan?