A geography of distrust
Last week I was talking with someone who, like me, has worked at newspapers all over the country. And all over the country, we agreed, you find a certain degree of distrust between rural areas and the big, dominant city. Rural Oregon doesn’t think much of Portland. Upstate New York doesn’t think much of New York City. It’s a natural conflict and tension. I’ll bet much of France feels the same way about Paris.
However, we also agreed that here in Georgia, the distrust and even dislike of metro Atlanta in other parts of the state is particularly strong. That has real consequences, as we saw in the recent session of the General Assembly.
Well, the folks over at DailyKos just released a national poll on a seemingly unrelated series of questions. But if you look at the numbers for the South, they’re striking. And I think that in some way, they explain something about Atlanta’s strained relations with our fellow Georgians.
Here are the questions and results:
Do you have a favorable or unfavorable opinion of the city of San Francisco?
——————-Fav.— Unf.—No opinion
NORTHEAST……..72…..16…..12
SOUTH…………….48……42….10
MIDWEST…………70…..19…..11
WEST………………75…..14…..11
Do you have a favorable or unfavorable opinion of the city of New York.
————-Fav.— Unf.—No opinion
NORTHEAST……..80…..15…..5
SOUTH…………….46……44….10
MIDWEST…………72…..20…..8
WEST………………73…..18…..9
Do you have a favorable or unfavorable opinion of France?
————-Fav.— Unf.—No opinion
NORTHEAST……..71…..21…..8
SOUTH…………….43……51….6
MIDWEST…………67…..26…..7
WEST………………69…..24…..7
Do you have a favorable or unfavorable opinion of Europe?
————-Fav.— Unf.—No opinion
NORTHEAST……..74…..18…..8
SOUTH…………….45……48….7
MIDWEST…………69…..23…..8
WEST………………71…..20…..9
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90 comments Add your comment
Corporal
April 13th, 2009
6:58 pm
Looks good to me. What’s the point?
I Report/ You Whine
April 13th, 2009
7:05 pm
Oh yeah, the Daily Kooks.
There ya go.
Corporal
April 13th, 2009
7:06 pm
P.S. to Jay:
You left off Auburn.
I Report/ You Whine
April 13th, 2009
7:07 pm
Now ask all the enraged, hysterical America haters up north what they think of Jawjuh.
Geez.
Bud Wiser
April 13th, 2009
7:10 pm
Like all polls, answers are skewed by the question; for instance, having lived in Northern California for 7 years, I love San Francisco as a beautiful city, great vistas, a lot to do, and great food. But live there? Never. A great place to visit, but their political structure has degenerated into utter chaos.
Therefore, answer: unfavorable, but unable by the structure of the question to deliver a real and factual opinion.
Same goes for all the others. I like Paris well enough, because I had pitiful French speaking skills, but I tried, and that seemed to hold me in good stead with the locals well enough. I absolutely adore southern France, and Lyon in particular.
New York I rate like SFO, but more expensive. The tax thing there may well cripple their economic standing as a ‘world’ city.
Europe? Haven’t seen enough to make a blanket opinion, but I liked what I saw for the most part.
So, I guess for me it goes back to the flawed premise of the question itself. I’ll opine on where I’ve been, but I won’t necessarily downgrade anything without reasons to back it up.
Simple questions for simpletons who want a yes-no to everything.
Taxpayer
April 13th, 2009
7:12 pm
Gee, and I was hoping that one of the questions would have been, just for fun, “Do you have a favorable or unfavorable opinion of anyone that does not look, act, think, etc., just like you?” Of course, I already know how the “South” polled.
Bosch
April 13th, 2009
7:18 pm
Bud,
I agree. I think those of us who don’t live in big cities, obviously don’t live in big cities, because, well, we don’t want to. Big cities are great for entertainment needs, but I would never want to live in Altanta, and to be honest, I’ve never even had the urge to visit New York.
But your right, that doesn’t mean I have an unfavorable opinion of New York or Atlanta, or even Europe – I like Europe, even loved being there, but I’m not so sure I’d want to live there. I like right where I am. I do wish there was more rail service out into the more rural areas, because that would certainly make me go to Atlanta more often, and I’d like to see more bike paths and more neighborhoods that could function as a smaller sub-city so we could walk more.
MadMadWorld
April 13th, 2009
7:21 pm
Wow, TP this coming from someone that thinks anyone with a conservative view is a nazi. A narrow minded person talking about somebody being narrow minded. Makes lots of sense.
RW-(the original)
April 13th, 2009
7:25 pm
And I think that in some way, they explain something about Atlanta’s strained relations with our fellow Georgians.
If you start with assumption that the Koz Kiddies had their polling company reflect an accurate cross section of rural and urban Georgians this poll wouldn’t come close to explaining that. In fact it would do just the opposite. Of course they gave you as little as possible in the way of information on how they reached those breakdowns so it looks like it was done for no other reason than to denigrate the south. Why do you suppose Koz and Jay B would be promoting such a notion? Could it be that in the south Republicans still get elected?
Ray
April 13th, 2009
7:26 pm
So, what’s the point? “Do you have an unfavorable opinion of Europe”? What a stupid question, probably asked by someone who wants to skew an opinion poll to his/hers point of view. I agree with Bud…. you can make any opinion poll produce the results that you want by skewing the audience, the nature of the questions, the people you poll or the end results you want to produce. It doesn’t have much credence Bookman….. try again.
Corporal
April 13th, 2009
7:36 pm
To “Bubba” Jay:
May I recommend “The Politically Incorrect Guide to the South (and Why It Will Rise Again)” by Clint Johnson …
Taxpayer
April 13th, 2009
7:36 pm
MMW,
If I were to even begin to think that you understand anything more substantial than what is crammed between your toes, then it would truly be a sign that this is a mad mad world. Nope. Not happening. Now, why don’t you go back to using your regular blogging name. Don’t be scared. I won’t bludgeon you too much.
Taxpayer
April 13th, 2009
7:40 pm
Did someone imply the someone needed help in denigrating the south. I think that the south has that matter well under control. Just ask Newt if you need confirmation of that. Hell, he’s written books on it.
Not to worry though. Martha White WILL rise again and if not,well, there’s always Viagra.
Corporal
April 13th, 2009
7:41 pm
Remember my conservatives friends, for some strange reason I haven’t quite figured out yet, self-flagellating liberals like to make themselves feel better by hating things American. It’s probably because they weren’t raised right and never ate enough BBQ but ……
I would like to see a poll of liberals with the question “Do you have a favorable or unfavorable opinion of America?
MadMadWorld
April 13th, 2009
7:47 pm
TP,
I just love keyboard cowboys like you. Come on, toejam jokes…really? My five year old can come up with better than that. Here’s what you do…go to your local elementary school and get some new material.
Corporal
April 13th, 2009
7:50 pm
Let’s All Sing Together Now ………….
http://www.bornagainamerican.org/
Jay
April 13th, 2009
7:51 pm
For what it’s worth, the regional breakdown is just one of many demographic subsets reported in the poll: age, race, gender, political ID, etc. It wasn’t by any means directed at the South. It polled 2,400 respondents, which is substantial.
Also, Taxpayer, I see no evidence that MMW is posting as a poseur.
Taxpayer
April 13th, 2009
7:58 pm
Thanks Jay. It doesn’t hurt to check now and then given that so many of them sound alike. I think I’d get more diversity in comments from Sybil than from some of these posters.
MadMadWorld
April 13th, 2009
8:05 pm
TP
Stealing my bit…another great one.
“Originality is for suckers” -TP
Corporal
April 13th, 2009
8:07 pm
Jay:
You’re spoiling all the fun.
Corporal
April 13th, 2009
8:13 pm
OFF TOPIC:
Oh, I just read where one of the terrorists was only a Junior Pirate who had not yet earned all of his merit badges. I guess that means the captain would have only been “juniorly” dead.
By the way, the youngest U.S. Marine killede in World War II was just shy of his 15th birthday. He was supposed to be in the 9th grade. I believe there was a sailor killed younger than that.
Taxpayer
April 13th, 2009
8:20 pm
Jay, from a quick scan of the numbers, there also appears to be a fairly strong correlation between the responses from the “South” and from the “Republicans”. That suggests that the polling must have favored rural areas more than cities. So, I think that they need to further refine the “South” to include the sub-category of “Rural South” or just change the current heading and that will likely be accurate enough for government work. Anyway, that leads me to MMW’s divined comment from me — southerners are Republicans are conservatives are nazis. There. You happy now. Maroon.
AmVet
April 13th, 2009
8:24 pm
Wait just a cotton pickin minute!
Mr. Bookman, are you asking us to believe that the xenophobes in Dixie have radically different (out of touch?) views from the rest of this nation?
Stuck in the past and stuck on stupid…
Obambi's TelePrompter
April 13th, 2009
8:25 pm
My little tard loves San Franfreako!
TGT
April 13th, 2009
8:30 pm
As long as we’re talking about polls, some recent George Barna reasearch (seen here) reveals the following:
Based upon an evaluation of more than a dozen religious beliefs of liberals and conservatives, consistent and significant differences are evident. Liberals are less than half as likely as conservatives to firmly believe that the Bible is totally accurate in all of the principles it teaches (27% versus 63%, respectively); to strongly believe that Satan is real (17% versus 36%); and to firmly contend that they have a personal responsibility to share their religious beliefs with others (23% versus 48%).
Liberals are also far less likely than conservatives to strongly believe each of the following:
their religious faith is very important in their life (54% of liberals vs. 82% of conservatives);
a person cannot earn their way into Heaven by doing good deeds or being a good person (23% vs. 37%);
their faith is becoming an increasingly important moral guide in their life (38% vs. 70%);
the church they currently attend is very important in helping them find direction and fulfillment in life (37% vs. 62%);
their primary purpose in life is to love God with all their heart, mind, strength and soul (43% vs. 76%);
Jesus Christ did not commit sins during His time on earth (33% vs. 55%).
Liberals are also much less likely than conservatives to believe that “God is the all-knowing, all-powerful creator of the world who still rules the universe today.” Only about half of liberals (55%) adopt that view of God compared to more than four out of five conservatives (82%).
Mike
April 13th, 2009
8:30 pm
AmVet –
Yes, Southerners should be tolerant like you. LOL
BDAtlanta
April 13th, 2009
8:31 pm
We socialists are going to take over the South first. SF and NY will have to wait.
Today Macon, tomorrow Conyers! We’re on a roll!
SuperDave
April 13th, 2009
8:43 pm
I think this poll may be influenced by the quality of education in much of the South. Many of the responders in the poll probably couldn’t even find those cities on a map, much less know enough about them to form a valid observation.
TGT 8:30
And so this poll means what?
mike
April 13th, 2009
8:49 pm
Anyone want to guess what the inverse of these polls would be?
What do New Yorkers think of the South?
What do San Fransiscans think of the South?
What do the French think of the South?
What do Europeans think of the South?
Take a look at the hateful comments of well-known intellectuals like Taxpayer and AmVet if you want some insight.
Tolerance is a two way street. Can anyone explain to me why the unfavorable opinions held of the South is so much more scandalous than unfavorable opinions held by the South?
Taxpayer
April 13th, 2009
8:49 pm
BDAtlanta,
Conyers? Macon, maybe. After all, they have art.
mike
April 13th, 2009
8:51 pm
Add SuperDave to the list of tolerant intellectuals whose example we should be following. LOL
The hypocrisy is laughable. If you people are so concerned about tolerance, why are you so intolerant?
mike
April 13th, 2009
8:52 pm
I can only laugh at Taxpayer braying about the lack of supposed lack of sophistication of Southerners. The guy doesn’t even understand the concept of compound interest.
Kamchak
April 13th, 2009
9:00 pm
Mr. Bookman
Do you see any evidence that anybody here is posting as a poseur?
Taxpayer
April 13th, 2009
9:06 pm
TGT,
What about Independents, Conservatives, Constitutionalists, etc. There are just too many to keep up with now that the GOP is so splintered.
I Report/ You Whine
April 13th, 2009
9:14 pm
(Crain’s) — Illinois is getting a jump on the federal stimulus program, claiming more than 12% of the road and bridge projects approved so far by the U.S. Department of Transportation.
You gotta have some way to pay back your hacks in Chicago, so whammo, unload the federal treasury Obozo.
ew
Corporal
April 13th, 2009
9:16 pm
OFF TOPIC …….
AmVet:
I posted this for you on an earlier thread and would sincerly appreciate your thoughts.
This is a short excerpt from “If Not Now, When” by Colonel (Ret.) Jack Jacobs (Medal of Honor – Vietnam).
It basically concerns the moral responsibility of general officers (i.e., the Joint Chiefs of Staff) when civilian leadership interferes with the tactical (not the POLICY) part of warfare. I would appreciate your thoughts……
“There has been much criticism of the civilian leadership for the midadventure in Iraq, and all of it is deserved.”
“What the Defense Department touted as a revolutionary and more effective form of modern warfare was merely a lame attempt to accomplish a big job with insufficient strength and poor understanding of warfare.”
“But if the Secretary of Defense wants to do something contrary to the best judgment of the general officers appointed to render advice, something so egregious that experienced military people know instinctively, if not from experience, that it is foolhardy or worse, who is left ot prevent disaster? Only those general officers!”
“If ……. any officer thought that the plan (2nd Iraq War) was unworthy, each had an obligation to his uniform, to the nation, and to the troops they sent to war to ensure that the plan was not executed. And if they thought that the plan was a good one, then they were fools. In either case, they failed this country.”
“Civilian control was established to prevent military domination, and the rules for following lawful orders are clear. Who would have thought that our real dnager was the civiilian hijacking of the military apparatus, snatching it from officers who were either too inept or too pusillanimous to resist? In this regard, one might hear an attempted justification asserting that it is more effective to be inside than outside the organization. Of course, if you’re outside, certainly you can’t affect anyting. But if you’re not effective inside, you might as well be outside.”
Military officers don’t have the right to determine policy or disobey orders under the Constitution of the United States but they do have the right (and duty on rare occasions) to resign rather than send their troops to slaughter. Colonel Jacobs is not talking rebellion here, or even insubordination. He is merely stating that there comes a time when you realize your duty and oath is to the Constitution – and I agree.
By the way, if you read “Derelection of Duty” by H.R. McMaster, you will remember that Commandant of the Marine Corps Wallace Greene (Vietnam era) stated his biggest regret is that the Joint Chiefs of Staff did not resign “en masse” over the policies of Johnson/McNamara. It would have caused such a public outcry and inquiry that it would have saved thousands of American lives.
Taxpayer
April 13th, 2009
9:18 pm
Then again, perhaps a simple presentation of some acceptable metric, say the SAT, may be sufficient to either prove or dis-prove SuperDave’s claim. Anyway, such a presentation of data from the resident nanny might go a lot farther in convincing the intellectuals in the audience than say, the incessant nagging. It’s just a thought…from an intellectual…I think. Yes, it’s admittedly hard for even someone such as I to follow the nanny’s posts. But, I do try.
jt
April 13th, 2009
9:21 pm
It’s all Capn Herb’s fault.
jt
April 13th, 2009
9:26 pm
The better place that one lives, the easier it is to be critical(or un-favorable) of another place.
If you live in the highest taxed city IN THE WORLD, any OTHER place is favorable.
TUESDAY VANDY GIRL
April 13th, 2009
9:29 pm
I grew up in Alpharetta and I have burning dislike bordering on abject hatred for Metro Atlanta. It’s normal to hate inferiority and dysfunction. The actual city of Atlanta appears to exist only as a jobs program, everytime a local black politician doesn’t get their way it’s “institutional racism”, and I haven’t even talked about our hockey team yet….
jt
April 13th, 2009
9:32 pm
Corporal- One comment on your 9:16.
The British Navy gets by this conundrum by having their military answer ONLY to Her Majesty the Queen.
TGT
April 13th, 2009
9:32 pm
SuperDave: Just more info. Draw your own conclusions.
Taxpayer: Barna’s poll only referenced “conservatives,” and “liberals,” which were self-identified based on social and political matters. There’s no mention of republicans, democrats, independents, etc.
TnGelding
April 13th, 2009
9:32 pm
Just another indication of how far we have to go.
Frederick Douglass
April 13th, 2009
9:46 pm
I didn’t know Alpharetta had a hockey team.
BDAtlanta
April 13th, 2009
9:46 pm
hehe…
The best part? It’s only been just over three months. These adorable hyenas can’t possibly sustain such a silly froth; in terms of extreme vitriol, there is nowhere left to go. Really, how do you top calling Obama a Satan Hitler Mussolini Lenin Iran-loving dictator hell-bent on taking away our guns and destroying capitalism as he forces everyone to drive a pink Prius to the Commie Hut to pick up our gay Chinese babies?
Are these laughable loudmouths not already shooting their little wads? And is that not, in a way, a brilliant strategy on the part of Team Obama, to burn out the nutball pundits early on and leave ‘em gasping and baffled and lost, as nothing sticks and the GOP sinks below 30 percent approval and the rest of us can continue to get some real work done? Sounds about right to me.
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/g/a/2009/04/10/notes041009.DTL
hehe…And the endless search for GOP direction will continue to meander on Wednesday…fun, fun
SuperDave
April 13th, 2009
9:47 pm
On my 8:43
Ouch!
Thought you guys might recognize a little sarcasm. Guess not. There is some truth to it though.
TGT
I’ll draw my own conclusions: Conservatives are more “religeous” than liberals.
Tell me something I don’t already know. Duh!
Something I heard a while back:
Religious people are afraid of going to hell.
Spiritual people have already been to hell and back.
Also, some of the most spiritual people I’ve known never go to church.
Corporal
April 13th, 2009
9:51 pm
SuperDave:
If they are “truly” Christians they ARE the church.
“Not everyone who calls me Lord, Lord shall enter the Kingdom …… “
Dusty
April 13th, 2009
9:55 pm
Oh please,just a minute. Wait until I stop laughing over Bookman’s statement, “It wasn’t by any means directed at the South.” No, of course not. He only mentioned “south” in every context under the sun but it was not about The South. Yes, sir, Mr. Bookman. If you say so, sir…
But, do let me answer Kamchak’s question to our fine NORTHERN gentleman Mr. Jaysonitus Ignasius Bookman: Do you see any evidence that anybody here is posting as a poseur?
Well, no, but several here are posting as a masseur! I can tell because they are rubbing me the wrong way.
AmVet
April 13th, 2009
9:59 pm
Corporal, thanks for the 9:16. Good stuff.
As a former fellow in arms, I appreciate the delicate dance between military and civilian leadership in this great country.
Sadly, weakass never-served, never-will politicians and the most craven chickenhawks in our long history are killing the dance.
Alas! The chaste and pure, the non-partisan defender of truth, the self-appointed blog-nanny and the ultra-bizarre demander in chief returns!
Apparently the troll’s been reduced to the point where his only “contributions” are to tell others here (but only “liberals”???) his most unfavorable but always non-biased opinion of them.
As if anyone cares????
The kid’s quickly becoming a blogging caricature…
Corporal
April 13th, 2009
10:06 pm
OH, THE HUMANITY ……………
HEADLINE: Secret Surveillance Stays …
“Obama’s supporters dismayed as administration invokes ’state secrets’ privilege to sheild eavesdropping programs — just like former President Bush.”