For the history books now, but….
“When CIA officials subjected their first high-value captive, Abu Zubaida, to waterboarding and other harsh interrogation methods, they were convinced that they had in their custody an al-Qaeda leader who knew details of operations yet to be unleashed, and they were facing increasing pressure from the White House to get those secrets out of him.
The methods succeeded in breaking him, and the stories he told of al-Qaeda terrorism plots sent CIA officers around the globe chasing leads.
In the end, though, not a single significant plot was foiled as a result of Abu Zubaida’s tortured confessions, according to former senior government officials who closely followed the interrogations. Nearly all of the leads attained through the harsh measures quickly evaporated, while most of the useful information from Abu Zubaida — chiefly names of al-Qaeda members and associates — was obtained before waterboarding was introduced, they said.
Moreover, within weeks of his capture, U.S. officials had gained evidence that made clear they had misjudged Abu Zubaida. President George W. Bush had publicly described him as “al-Qaeda’s chief of operations,” and other top officials called him a “trusted associate” of al-Qaeda leader Osama bin Laden and a major figure in the planning of the Sept. 11, 2001, terrorist attacks. None of that was accurate, the new evidence showed….
Since 2006, Senate intelligence committee members have pressed the CIA, in classified briefings, to provide examples of specific leads that were obtained from Abu Zubaida through the use of waterboarding and other methods, according to officials familiar with the requests.
The agency provided none, the officials said.”
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184 comments Add your comment
Bud Wiser
March 29th, 2009
7:23 am
Yeah, and I’m sure coffee and a cookie, with a gentle back and neck massage, will make them open up and sing like a bird. Don’t forget the Barry Manilow background music and the soft lighting as well. Punishment for the guards should be swift and certain as well if they do not have the pillows fluffed and the bed linens drawn at the proper time.
So remind us all again Jay, what steps your fearless leader has done to change the situation, other than changing the wording from war on terrorism, to a fluffy pillow fight?
Bud Wiser
March 29th, 2009
7:33 am
Let me revise the ending on my last post please, to read ” …what steps your fearless leader has done to change the situation, other than changing the wording from war on terrorism, to a bitch slappin’ contest?
Bud Wiser
March 29th, 2009
7:39 am
This is an explanation of the term ‘bitch slap’ for those of you lefties who want to remain discreetly politically correct.
Bud Wiser
March 29th, 2009
7:42 am
Hey, since you clowns are so, so set against waterboarding, maybe we could try that!!
Bud Wiser
March 29th, 2009
7:53 am
Jay and I must be the only ones not in church this morning.
And to close out my morning session, I leave you with a short vignette from none other than Curly, who make me laugh so hard when I was small. Stay until the very end, and you will see why the left is so anti-gun. Ciao.
Eddy
March 29th, 2009
7:54 am
How naive can a significant portion of the public be! It appears that they are not just naive but stupefyingly dumb. Let’s see….we’ll give our troops paintball guns instead of real ones, notify the enemy before launching any offensive against them, NEVER obtain any intelligence that could be used to possibly save American lives, abide by at all times the Geneva convention even though the terrorists (insert new euphemism as decided by O) have never heard of it and would never abide by it under any circumstances, sing Kumbaya loudly so that the terrorists are alerted that we are coming, and on and on….. Now when the next attack occurs on the US soil and perhaps thousands are killed, let’s all be outraged (throw a real hissy fit sorta like some of our congressmen and demand an investigation…..see Barney Frank) that we were not protected from such an attack….who can we blame? Got a mirror handy!!! Sorry folks but the terrorists are playing for keeps, will do anything, kill anyone and never miss a night’s sleep. They know that they can count on a significant number of Americans to force the people who are trying to protect us “to play fair” at the expense of American lives. God forbid that there is another attack but if it does occur, let’s read Jay’s blog for the day after!!!!
ByteMe
March 29th, 2009
7:58 am
No surprise.
Every interrogations expert will tell you that you have to gain their trust to gain the truth; pain NEVER works outside of movies and “24″ and will get the person to tell you anything to make the pain stop.
But it makes the neanderthugs feel better that “something” painful is being done to a Muslim in retaliation, even if the retaliation misses the target and never actually results in any useful information.
The goal isn’t to just randomly inflict pain on a Muslim; it’s to get information as fast as possible to hopefully save lives.
Inflicting pain during interrogations doesn’t work and the administration should have left the interrogations to the professionals instead of to the amateur wannabees and spooky cowboys.
AmVet
March 29th, 2009
8:04 am
The bottom line?
NEVER, EVER trust Republican chickenhawks to a) not screw everything up they touch and b) not lie about it.
Whether it be matters military, economic or social.
Twenty eight years of first class, industrial strength, Grade A failures…
Corporal
March 29th, 2009
8:12 am
Jay:
Two points:
1) There is probably still a lot of highly classified stuff that “even you” know nothing about as to the effectiveness of any of these interrogations.
2) I still prefer the “Eisenhower” method of interrogation for enemy combatants captured out of uniform on the field of battle ….. firing squad.
To Bud Wiser:
My church doesn’t start until 9:30am. I hope you are going today ………
)
I Report/ You Whine
March 29th, 2009
8:13 am
Oh yeah, so I guess we need the government to save us-
URINAL SPECIAL REPORT: REWRITING THE AMERICAN DREAM: Road to prosperity takes rough detour!!!! And victim of an economy that’s obliterating jobs, shredding the middle class and ——–>making a mockery<——— of the work-hard, play-straight dictum that promised a comfortable retirement for a job well done.
Speak for yourselves, losers!
mike
March 29th, 2009
8:19 am
The left seems to ignore the fact that Clinton started the practice of having terrorism suspects tortured. They just used extraordinary rendition to send them overseas to have foreign countries do it for us.
Is that more moral?
Eric
March 29th, 2009
8:25 am
I’m really impressed that Spain is considering bringing charges against six members of the Dubya administration in connection with torture. Hopefully they’ll have to get in line behind the USA. In the meantime, I’ll be putting my Spanish flag on display.
I Report/ You Whine
March 29th, 2009
8:36 am
Queen Pinko ties herself in a big knot-
Capitalism isn’t the enemy, and it isn’t the savior. It is simply a system fueled by human creativity but vulnerable to human weaknesses such as greed. (It’s a lot better than communism because at least capitalism takes humanity into account: We work hard for our own benefit, not for the benefit of the state.)-Urinal
“Greed,” eh?
Your choice of retirement plans- 1) a seven figure bank account with a 65% pension and health care benefits, 2) 600 bucks a week Social “Security” and the Medicare embarrassment.
So come on libbies, do tell us, which one are you shooting for?
Huh?
So if you chose “a)” do you not need a certain amount of “greed,” to make sure it is fully funded?
What else would you like to call it?
Nobody in their right mind is going to leave off from their working years with an uncertainty of their future well being, well except for the 30% hard core democrat socialists sucking the government teat.
(It’s a lot better than communism because at least capitalism takes humanity into account: We work hard for our own benefit, not for the benefit of the state.)
I can’t believe the lib said that, socialism, communism, what’s the big diff?
A overbearing nanny government is no different than the “state.”
DB, Gwinnettian
March 29th, 2009
8:41 am
Any rational person surprised by any of this?
Cherokee
March 29th, 2009
8:45 am
ByteMe is correct. Torture simply doesn’t work – anyone with any knowledge of actual interrogation knows that.
But hey, it helps the faux machismo of keyboard combatants and 24 afficianados who need such stuff to beef up their male ego.
DB, Gwinnettian
March 29th, 2009
8:49 am
Bud, our nation’s experience interrogating Japanese POWs yielded field manuals that called for methods that actually worked in extracting information.
You (and many, many of your ilk) dismissively talk of “coffee and a cookie, with a gentle back and neck massage” but just hypothetically, if that’s what it took to extract the information we needed, what kind of an imbecile would choose not to do it, simply out of hatred for the enemy?
Hell, even Oliver North said he would’ve promised the Iranians a trip to Disneyland if he thought that would precipitate a positive outcome.
Point is, the methods that have proven to work are those that establish a bond of trust between prisoner and interrogator. It takes time, and that usually entails some not-at-all-nice parts that should be sufficiently nasty for you sadistic types to get your jollies–isolation, alienation from the prisoner’s native culture, that sort of stuff. Any “breaking” that takes place that’s likely to yield any useful result occurs when the prisoner comes to feel a rational reason to share with his captor.
Men who’ve been indoctrinated in nutball religious extremism, who feel they’ll meet God if only they resist torture and martyr themselves, seem like the last people you’d torture for any reason other than Dick Cheney’s sex fantasies.
And let’s face facts–that is what most of this was about, at the end of the day. A small group of sick, nasty old men, living out their fantasies.
Thank God they’re no longer in charge. (We think.)
DB, Gwinnettian
March 29th, 2009
8:51 am
So anyone get added to Corporal’s enemies list last night? Guess I’ll go have a look. I do so love a cheesy soap opera.
I Report/ You Whine
March 29th, 2009
8:56 am
Stimulus sparks surge of energy
The funding dwarfs its recipients.
One state energy office, a part of the Georgia Environmental Facilities Authority, has three employees, a boss who has other responsibilities, and a $1.4 million annual budget. It will be responsible for handling $82.5 million in stimulus money.
Another GEFA office spent $8 million last year funding weatherization projects. It will have $125 million to spend this year.
And $67 million will go to Georgia cities and counties, too. That’s the funding announced last week.-Urinal
4 people with a 1.4 million budget and nearly 200 million dollars that they have no idea what they are going to do with?
Times 57 states?
Yeah boy, I see plenty of “bonuses” goin round.
duh
mm
March 29th, 2009
9:07 am
It’s starting! A Spanish court is looking at bringing up charges against Bush admin officials for torture. Yep, that torture thing is going to bite you wingnuts in the @ss.
HaHaHaHaHaHa
DB, Gwinnettian
March 29th, 2009
9:12 am
Whiner, since
a) you’re up to your usual off-topic distractions, and
b) you still lie awake nights fretting about noble, decent AIG execs meeting untimely ends that involve piano wire, this linkee’s for you!
Like a lot of people, I read Wednesday’s New York Times editorial by former AIG Financial Products employee Jake DeSantis, whose resignation letter basically asks us all to reconsider our anger toward the poor overworked employees of his unit.
DeSantis has a few major points. They include: 1) I had nothing to do with my boss Joe Cassano’s toxic credit default swaps portfolio, and only a handful of people in our unit did; 2) I didn’t even know anything about them; 3) I could have left AIG for a better job several times last year; 4) but I didn’t, staying out of a sense of duty to my poor, beleaguered firm, only to find out in the end that; 5) I would be betrayed by AIG senior management, who promised we would be rewarded for staying, but then went back on their word when they folded in highly cowardly fashion in the face of an angry and stupid populist mob.
I have a few responses to those points. They are 1) Bulls–t; 2) bulls–t; 3) bulls–t, plus of course; 4) bulls–t. Lastly, there is 5) Boo-F–king-Hoo. You dog.
AIGFP only had 377 employees. Those 400-odd folks received almost $3.5 billion in compensation in the last seven years, a very large part of that money coming from the sale of credit default protection. Doing the math, that averages out to over $9 million of compensation per person.
Ask yourself this question: If your company made that much money, and the boss of the unit made almost $280 million in just a few years, exactly how likely is it that you wouldn’t know where that money was coming from?
DB, Gwinnettian
March 29th, 2009
9:15 am
I believe our sometime-contributor Jen’s finishing her half-marathon right around now. Hope all’s well on that front.
Gotta run myself (not literally, that’ll be later today). Later, all.
jon
March 29th, 2009
9:31 am
This was too good to die on the other thread. –
This thing in the midwest reminds me of when just a few short years ago, the City of New Orleans experienced record flooding. Remember how the people of that city banded together to fight the ravages of the floodwaters. How local and state authorities activated emergency plans to evacuate the people that were threatened. Remember how the most affected came to the aid of their fellow citizens – rescuing big screen TVs so they could sell them to their neighbors at reduced rates. We even saw New Orleans police officers rescuing groceries and electronics from flooded stores so the community would not be deprived.
And don’t we all remember how the mayor and governor had the foresight to not activate the evacuation plans and use all those city buses to evacuate the populace. And how they never thought to request Federal Aid. After all we don’t have to ask Santa Claus to come every year – he just does.
What vision it was to turn a disaster into a catastrophe that could be blamed on the POTUS!
I’ll never forget the images of those citizens in the Super Dome banding together to help their fellow survivors while deconstructing the details of the conspiracy by the rich white people that doomed their city.
And the gall of those people in Fargo to not take up rent free residence in FEMA trailers for the next dozen years. So damn ——– Republican of them.
As for poor Abu, he deserved everything he got.
@@
March 29th, 2009
9:38 am
Well YooWho, jay!
Take notes.
The Obama Justice Department moved to dismiss the case before U.S. District Judge Jeffrey White.
“This administration has made no secret of the fact that it disagrees with the previous administration’s approach to many legal issues in the national security arena,” Matthew Miller, spokesman for the Justice Department, said in a written statement. “Nevertheless, the Department of Justice generally defends employees and former employees in lawsuits that are filed in connection to their official duties.”
Justice Department attorney Mary Mason said something similar at the hearing, stating that “we’re not saying we condone torture.”
But she argued that recourse against a government lawyer such as Yoo — who worked for the Justice Department’s Office of Legal Counsel — “is for the executive to decide, in the first instance, and for Congress to decide,” not the courts, she said.
This is the second such instance where President Obama, despite his opposition to Bush detention policies, took a legal position on the side of his predecessor.
Obama Justice Department attorneys similarly adopted the Bush “state secrets” argument in asking a court to dismiss a case against a flight data company that aided the CIA in performing alleged acts of extraordinary rendition.
Something makes me think Obama’s just not that into WaPo’s “hysterical” account.
We’ll have to review history, Obama-style at some future date.
lwwmm7
March 29th, 2009
9:39 am
If I see a rabid animal running around my neighborhood I’m not likely to try to pet it, offer it a doggie treat, or bundle it up in a blanket for a trip to the vet. A rabid animal is past the point of redemption, even with all our modern know-how. Same with a fanatic terrorist, dispatch them and try to prevent the rabies from spreading.
I Report/ You Whine
March 29th, 2009
9:48 am
Oh no, you haven’t. Whenever I interrupt a liberal’s anti-Limbaugh rant to point out that the ranter has never actually listened to the man, he always says the same thing: “I’ve heard him!”
On further questioning, it always turns out that by “heard him,” he means he’s heard the selected excerpts spoon-fed him by the distortion-mongers of the mainstream media. These excerpts are specifically designed to accomplish one thing: to make sure you never actually listen to Limbaugh’s show, never actually give him a fair chance to speak his piece to you directly.-LaTimes
Thought control on the left? No way!
duh
AmVet
March 29th, 2009
9:52 am
Ahh, your predictable, knee-jerk Reich-wing Republiconned.
Blame Clinton.
And if that fails, blame Carter.
And if that fails, blame LBJ.
And if that fails, blame FDR.
And if that fails…
You get the idea.
And for GAWD’s sakes hold NO Republican/fake conservative accountable for any of their many gaffes.
None of them. Ever. No matter how deadly or disastrous.
Saint Ronnie’s moronic 11th Commandment is alive and well, donchaknow!
The list of countries — North Korea, Israel, Cambodia, South Africa, China, Iran, Uganda, Iraq, Viet Nam, Syria, Pakistan, Guatemala, Saudi Arabia and Malaysia — who have willfully violated the United Nations Convention Against Torture has grown by one. The United States of America.
Thanks to Mssrs. “Abu Gharib” Bush and “I’m a water-boarder from way back” Cheney.
Disgraceful, dishonorable, lying, pitiful excuses for American leadership; the worst ever elected by the same kind of people.
And the heroes of the Moron Belt’s American Talibaptists.
And you dolts wonder why you keep getting humiliated every other November…
Redneck Convert
March 29th, 2009
10:03 am
Well, I never understood this waterboarding. If you got a Terrist why go to all the trouble to make him think he’s drowning? Just drown him and be done with it. It wouldn’t take much more water and it would sure take less time.
Just don’t do it while I’m in church listening to the Rev. Postlewaite preach about doing unto others, etc. Besides, it’s my Sabbath. It can wait till Monday.
I see the Commies over in Spain are talking about bringing My President’s men to trial. A couple A-bombs could put a stop to that business. If we don’t do something fast pretty soon this World Court will be wanting to try My President and VP Cheney. They won’t even be able to go outside of the U.S. of A. without being arrested. If this ain’t cause for a war I don’t know what is.
Have a good day everybody.
lwwmm7
March 29th, 2009
10:09 am
Gotta run. Me and some of the other Baptists are off to bomb the Methodist service across town cause they are having a yard sale the same day we are putting on our revival kick-off. Might stop by the Catholic place on the way back and blow it up too just for fun.
mike
March 29th, 2009
10:25 am
AmVet -
Actually, there is nothing more predictable than your grade-school name calling.
My point (which you are too unhinged to understand) is that if you want to bash Bush for torture, than you need to bash Clinton for torture. Unless you are a hypocrite, that is.
mike
March 29th, 2009
10:27 am
Ah, I love the religious bigotry on this blog. Just goes to show how “tolerant” the liberals on this blog really are.
mike
March 29th, 2009
10:29 am
Redneck Convert –
Well, that is Obama’s tactic. He just has untried terrorism suspects assinatied. The failure of the liberals on this blog to criticize him for that or Clinton for torture demonstrates that they really don’t care about “morality” or “legality” at all. They just want another excuse to attack people who don’t share their narrow-minded political views.
ByteMe
March 29th, 2009
10:30 am
You got a cite for your stipulation about Clinton, mike? I’m sure that having you publish the source for your statement would help make your case.
Mrs. Godzilla
March 29th, 2009
10:40 am
Good Morning Campers!
Jay, thanks for the link. It is well worth the read.
Torture is immoral and so are its practioners and proponents.
Torture does not work, it’s a game played by some of the deeply sick and twisted people that remain in our society and is cheered on by those too stupid or souless to see that.
Y’all have a good day.
fearless fosdick
March 29th, 2009
11:08 am
Mike .. You did exactly as AmVet predicted. You blamed Clinton! Bash Bush…Hey! Why aren’t you bashing Clinton…Get my drift MIKE? I don’t recall Clinton who by the way has not been president for 9 years as ever admitting to any atrocities. Unlike Cheney the V.P. who on national TV did.
By the way MIKE please..How do you know Obama is having untried terrorists assassinated? This is unlawful and if you have some proof positive perhaps you should share this with the proper authorities.
AmVet
March 29th, 2009
11:10 am
ByteMe et al,
Mike, the Demander in Chief, is neo-conned through and through.
So don’t expect much. Like most in the “base”, he’s obsessed with the insignificant; scoring little points on this blog while losing the game. The big picture not really being their forte.
But ask him and he screams No!! No no no no no! He’s not going to rehab. (But NOT because he is too embarrassed to admit he’s one of the “conservative” faithful. Shhhh, it’s top secret.)
He’s a paragon of your moderate centrist! Exceptionally even-handed! A libertarian all the way, you betcha! He just HAPPENS to pal around with all of the Reich-wing quarter-wits here and gladly joins in on their daily liberal bashing and unprovoked personal insults and attacks.
Immaterial and irrelevant though that is, the kid is absolutely obsessed with me and my opinions. And has been from the very beginning. Fortunately he has given up his odd campaign to demand answers and explanations of even our moderator, Mr. Bookman, to satisfy that enormous quest for the truth.
Often I just ignore the over-emotional, juvenile attacks, but sometimes, I must confess, it is most entertaining that I can pretty much get him to respond anytime I choose.
There are a couple of “crucial” words I use that totally set him off.
And that have historically reduced him at times to lurking and lobbing grenades.
And in this morning’s experiment I intentionally used those inviolable words to confirm they still have that kind of power over him. And take a wild guess what occurred.
And just watch.
Not just content with getting in the first personal assault, he will insist on getting in the last word as well.
Who knows perhaps I can used my tested techniques to get him banned next.
Later, good peeps…
mike
March 29th, 2009
11:15 am
ByteMe –
Not surprised that you are ignorant of Clinton’s use of extrodinary rendition to have terrorism suspects tortured. Let me provide some education:
“First introduced during the Clinton administration, extraordinary renditions—in which suspected terrorists are turned over to countries known to use torture, usually for the purpose of extracting information from them—have been one of the CIA’s most controversial tools in the war on terror. ”
http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2008/03/exclusive-i-was-kidnapped-cia
mike
March 29th, 2009
11:20 am
AmVet –
Thanks for providing your standard combination of juvenile name calling and incoherent ranting.
Tell us again about “over-emotional, juvenile attacks”. LOL
fearless fosdick –
Again, your knee-jerk partisan mindset makes it difficult for you to understand a simple argument. I am not “blaming” Clinton for anything. I am pointing out that the liberal partisans demonstrate that their torture gripes against Bush are cynical, as they don’t hold Clinton accountable for his torture policies.
I voted for Clinton twice and thought he was a good President. My complaint is with mindless partisans, not with Democrat officials. Of course, folks like yourself are incapable of understanding that distinction.
SuperDave
March 29th, 2009
11:23 am
I don’t understand how any right minded person can condone the use of torture. It’s either wrong or it’s OK. If it’s OK then where do you draw the line? If it’s wrong then why is it right for “some” people and not for others.
So it’s all right to torture terrorists. Who gets to decide who is a terrorist and who is not? Who plays God and makes that decision. We are a nation founded on the rule of law and based on the premise that ALL men (I take that to mean all humans) are endowed with certain inalienable rights.
Or is it just American citizens that have those rights, and if not, who decides who in this world is entitled to them and who not. Or do we say that it is all right to torture people to prevent the loss of American lives? So any criminal then can be tortured to extract information that may prevent deaths. Drugs cause death, so maybe we should torture drug dealers to give up their kingpins so we can prevent unnecessary deaths. Maybe we should go to Alabama and round up some Klan members to see if they are hatching a plot to burn some black churches or something. We don’t need “just cause” heck, our president can make that decision.
Maybe some of you will say that it’s OK to torture criminals and terrorists because if they weren’t breaking the law, they wouldn’t be in danger of being tortured. And that they shouldn’t have access to legal counsel or a judge shouldn’t decide if there is just cause for their incarceration and torture.
Please tell me who gets tortured and who doesn’t and who is permitted to make that decision. How do you draw that line, and please remember, what do YOU do when the CIA comes to YOUR door in the middle of the night?
The world has looked up to us in the past for our insistence on doing what is right, regardless of the consequences. We have squandered that respect and it has cost America dearly.
If you can justify torture for someone, then you can justify it for everyone.
mike
March 29th, 2009
11:25 am
fearless fosdick –
“By the way MIKE please..How do you know Obama is having untried terrorists assassinated? This is unlawful and if you have some proof positive perhaps you should share this with the proper authorities.”
Do you not read the news? Are you aware of the predator strikes on terrorism suspects in Pakistan? These folks were killed by Obama without trial.
“A suspected US missile attack has killed eight militants including several foreigners in the stronghold of Pakistan’s top Taliban commander, intelligence officials said.
The strike came as President Barack Obama’s administration prepares to unveil a new strategy to quell Islamist insurgents threatening nuclear-armed Pakistan as well as neighbouring Afghanistan.
American officials have indicated that attacks along Pakistan’s un-policed western frontier will continue despite protests from the Pakistani government.”
Now, I am not criticizing that decision. I agree with it. I am just pointing out that folks like yourself who love to bleat on about “human rights”, “legality” and “sovereignty” don’t really care about these matters at all. You just want to bash politicians who are not of your party.
mike
March 29th, 2009
11:26 am
fosdick –
Here is the link:
http://www.google.com/hostednews/ukpress/article/ALeqM5gY9LChI0BMGQI5sCW7bI9ZAQanLw
You shouldn’t need it. It is a well reported story as it was the last time he did it.
RW-(the original)
March 29th, 2009
11:31 am
Another post on “torture” is what I call torture.
I saw above where one poster was hectoring another to stay on topic. How on earth can anyone be expected to stay on topic when this is about the 4,000th blog we’ve had on this topic in the last few years without a shred of new information coming out?
SuperDave
March 29th, 2009
11:32 am
What the heck difference does it make whether Bush or Clinton or both authorized extraordinary rendition? If Clinton did it, that doesn’t make it right, and just because someone voted for him, doesn’t mean they support everything he did. You are trying to say Clinton got a pass on that issue and Bush didn’t. Some of you folks have a short memory. I don’t recall Clinton getting a free pass from the “liberal press” on much.
ByteMe
March 29th, 2009
11:32 am
mike, I read the article and accept the source (better than AmSpec, y’know?), but you have a problem.
If you read all the way to the end, you get this tidbit:
The extraordinary rendition program was not primarily intended to yield information, according to Michael Scheuer, the cia official whom the Clinton White House tasked with implementing it. “It came from an improvisation to dismantle these terrorist cells overseas. We wanted to get suspects off the streets and grab their papers,” Scheuer explains. “The interrogation part wasn’t important.”
In other words, it wasn’t about torture at all or gaining information, but removing people from society by placing them in the hands of countries where “judicial process” is underdeveloped. I don’t agree with that practice, but that’s also not what the Bushies decided to do. They decided to use torture to supposedly get information, none of which panned out.
So claiming “Clinton did it first” is either disingenuous on your part or just plain wrong.
Bud Wiser
March 29th, 2009
11:35 am
Ambling Veterinarian must ‘be off’ to pet and feed a doggy biscuit to the rabid animal, wrap it in a warm blanket, and take it to the vet. It is his way.
And DB, the use of …”You (and many, many of your ilk)…” has dark, negative racial connotations that bleeders such as yourself are very quick to point out in others, when sprinkling the r word regularly as you and your friends are wont to do so often.
I am disappointed that a left winger such as yourself would make such a careless error, but certainly not surprised. To paraphrase: “En bloggo veritas”, meaning that it sort of reveals a little more of your true nature.
As for the torture thing, if you bend something until it breaks, then merely replace it with another ‘thing’ until you get what you need from it.
RB from Gwinnett
March 29th, 2009
11:36 am
Here’s a question for Julia since Jay never answers questions. Julia, what is the purpose of Jay’s post today? Is there some news purpose for it? Is this new news we’re just receiving from some government source; previously classified? The whole Bush torture story passed YEARS ago, Julia. So why publish this now?
You keep looking for reasons the AJC is dropping customers at double the national average for large city papers and Jay and his cohorts keep publishing crap like this. For what purpose?
As I responded to your article a few weeks ago, the people don’t want an equal number of highly partisan op-eds posted to even out to “balance”, we want op-ed writers who have the moral and intellectual ability to view issues fairly and post opinions based on relevant facts and information. Jay and Co. are not capable of doing that. This city deserves better.
Treating the symptoms won’t work unless you eliminate the cancer, Julia. Good luck.
SuperDave
March 29th, 2009
11:40 am
Sorry RW, I didn’t know it was your day to decide the topic.
mike
March 29th, 2009
11:40 am
ByteMe –
You are splitting hairs. Clinton turned untried terrorism over to countries with the full knowledge they would be tortured. We glady took the reports from these interrogations and shared them with our allies. You think it is more moral to do so because information gathering was not the primary goal?
SuperDave –
I never said that Clinton’s role in torture made it right. The absolving of him for it by the liberals on this board makes them cynical hypocrites. And yes, Clinton did and does get a pass from the media on that issue.
Jen
March 29th, 2009
11:40 am
DB, I ran it at a 7:47 pace! My official chip time will be slower because I had to make an emergency pit stop (damn GU!) but my Garmin showed my pace never went above 8 and was as low as 7:10.
I’m so freaking happy!
OK, you won’t see me on here the rest of the day. Time for me to celebrate!
rcs
March 29th, 2009
11:46 am
RB from Gwinnett @ 11:36
Great Post. The third paragraph should be framed and put on the wall of the AJC editorial offices.
ByteMe
March 29th, 2009
11:55 am
mike, not saying it was moral, also not saying what you said: “We glady took the reports from these interrogations and shared them with our allies.” I think you’re assuming facts not in evidence. How do we know the information was “gladly” accepted and forwarded? How do we know the information was even accurate?
That’s the point — for those of you not paying attention — of what Jay’s article is saying: it’s not that we tortured (there’s a “Duh!” moment), but that no one is seeing ANY evidence that the torture produced accurate information and yet the government ran around wasting time and money torturing these people and then chasing false leads from this information with no results.
We know that as the information about our use of torture came out that it helped radicalize more nutcases against us.
So it’s a net-negative to have used torture.
Could — as some of the paranoid amongst us would postulate — there be some “hidden, super-secret” evidence that torture worked and produced good actionable intelligence that helped save lives as Cheney often says? You’d think at this point — if there was evidence — that at least some details would have leaked out, don’t you? Everything else about the torture is coming out, why would the most important thing — the positive results — be such a closely guarded secret still that no one is talking about it?