Israeli soldiers confirm tales of Gaza excesses
According to the Israeli newspaper Haaretz, Israeli soldiers and field-grade officers who took part in the invasion of Gaza are now confirming some of the horror stories about Israeli Defense Force behavior during that battle.
“Israeli forces killed Palestinian civilians under permissive rules of engagement and intentionally destroyed their property, say soldiers who fought in the offensive.
The soldiers are graduates of the Yitzhak Rabin pre-military preparatory course at Oranim Academic College in Tivon. Some of their statements made on Feb. 13 will appear Thursday and Friday in Haaretz. Dozens of graduates of the course who took part in the discussion fought in the Gaza operation.
The speakers included combat pilots and infantry soldiers. Their testimony runs counter to the Israel Defense Forces’ claims that Israeli troops observed a high level of moral behavior during the operation. The session’s transcript was published this week in the newsletter for the course’s graduates.The statements of the Israel Defense Forces soldiers from the Yitzhak Rabin preparatory course provide the first, uncensored look at what occurred in some of the combat units in Operation Cast Lead.
The soldiers are not lying, for the simple reason that they have no reason to. If you read the transcript that will appear in Haaretz Friday, you will not find any judgment or boasting. This is what the soldiers, from their point of view, saw in Gaza. There is a continuity of testimony from different sectors that reflects a disturbing and depressing picture.
…when statements came only from Palestinian witnesses or ‘the hostile press,’ it was possible to dismiss them as propaganda that served the enemy. But what can be done when the soldiers themselves tell the story?”
As a Haaretz editorial concludes:
“The IDF’s internal investigations, which are moving ahead very slowly, are not enough. The army is absorbing more and more religious extremism from the teachings of the IDF’s rabbinate. It would be appropriate to investigate the problems from outside the IDF and root them out before the rot destroys the IDF and Israeli society.”
The stories told by IDF soldiers testify to the damage that can be done to an army that for decades is assigned to occupy another people’s territory. The fact that Israel is willing to publicly confront that damage is testament to its values as a democracy.
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47 comments Add your comment
Mrs. Godzilla
March 19th, 2009
3:26 pm
War is Hell.
Bosch
March 19th, 2009
3:40 pm
Mrs. G.,
Ditto that. Many Israeli citizens are very weary of this conflict (I know, that’s kind of a ‘duh’) but many many more are speaking out. I have a friend that is Jewish (I know, so many here use the well, I have a friend thing) and I mean real Jewish. He’s a good bit older than me and was of the camp that the only good Palestinian was a dead one.
Then he went to Israel and the West Bank. Definite 180 – now he’s speaking out about it – he’s even been threatened by his synagogue to be “excommunicated” or whatever. It’s funny how people change their minds when they see things for themselves instead of relying on heresay and the news.
DB, Gwinnettian
March 19th, 2009
3:41 pm
I don’t really know what to day about the post except that I’m not terribly surprised; not by the accounts, nor that the IDF soldiers are owning up to it.
Mrs. G, I went looking for the context of that famous Sherman quote. Best as I can tell it’s from an address to graduating cadets:
“I’ve been where you are now and I know just how you feel. It’s entirely natural that there should beat in the breast of every one of you a hope and desire that some day you can use the skill you have acquired here.
“Suppress it! You don’t know the horrible aspects of war. I’ve been through two wars and I know. I’ve seen cities and homes in ashes. I’ve seen thousands of men lying on the ground, their dead faces looking up at the skies. I tell you, war is hell!”
Truth
March 19th, 2009
3:42 pm
Here comes the anti-Israel smack talk….
Fred
March 19th, 2009
3:42 pm
I am very Pro Israel and anti Palestine. However, atrocities committed by BOTH sides have been well documented for over 60 years. While I am saddened to read this again, I’m not surprised. The hatred between the two opposing factions runs so deep that they each view the other as something less than animals. Neither side would treat a dog as poorly as they treat their enemy.
I wish their was a simple solution, but there isn’t. In 1948 the Muslims vowed to wipe the Jews off the face off the earth and to finish the job that Hitler started. They have done everything they can to make this happen. The “Palestinians’ were not forced out of the newly (new in 1948) created Nation of Israel, they left voluntarily with the above vow. Any attempts at peaceful co-existence with the Jews has been derailed by violence from the radicals of both sides. It saddens me greatly.
Bosch
March 19th, 2009
3:45 pm
Truth,
No, it’s not anti-Israel smack. It’s anti-war smack talk. It’s talk to contradict that Israel is some kind of defenseless swan who is being picked on by big bad terrorists.
As I wrote the other day, we should be more concerned about Israel using a nuclear weapon than say, Iran.
G
March 19th, 2009
3:47 pm
I feel sorry for all the innocent people in Gaza. Feeling sorry isn’t enough, I know, but what are the right words to say? None.
I can’t say I know what they are going through because what they are going through is more than the worst situation I have ever been in.
I pray for them and they are in my thoughts.
jasper
March 19th, 2009
3:51 pm
There’s no justification for the barbarism even in war. But to put it into perspective, just ask yourself what would those Palestinians do to Jewish homes and families if they had the wherewithal to invade Israel in a similar fashion.
Bosch
March 19th, 2009
3:53 pm
Fred,
What does that mean to be anti-Palestine?
Truth
March 19th, 2009
3:59 pm
Bosch… Are you serious about being more scared od Israel than Iran when it comes to nukes??? I couldn’t tell you there was some sarcasm.
Mort Merkel
March 19th, 2009
3:59 pm
The U.S. could solve the whole problem by turning Idaho over to the Israelis.
radiowxman
March 19th, 2009
4:03 pm
If the Palestinians are so upset about the “excesses” and “atrocities” committed by Israeli soldiers, maybe they shouldn’t shoot rockets willy-nilly into Israel and breaking every peace treaty they’ve signed.
Bosch
March 19th, 2009
4:08 pm
Truth,
I’m only “scared” of two things – neither which are nuclear weaspons.
bdatlanta
March 19th, 2009
4:09 pm
I have no skin in this game.
Well,then again, aren’t we sending tax dollars to Israel?
Can’t they handle their own finances?
Eleanor Rigby
March 19th, 2009
4:09 pm
What if Mexico had been responsible for 9-11? How would that have played out? Just something to think about to put it in their perspective.
I Report/ You Whine
March 19th, 2009
4:10 pm
When do we get a story about all the damage done by the rockets launched at Israel?
It would be a first.
Truth
March 19th, 2009
4:11 pm
Sorry… concerned.
ConservativeAnchor
March 19th, 2009
4:14 pm
Obviously they weren’t excessive enough. Not enough dead Hamas terrorists. There are still a few walking around. They must be the ones that hid behind the baby carriages.
Civilian/Private/Corporal
March 19th, 2009
4:25 pm
Just a “couple” of points or I could go on all day ……
1) Jay – when is the thread coming out on what the “other side” in this conflict does?
2) Are you “sure” these transcripts weren’t from members of Sherman’s Army as they marched and pillaged through Georgia? If so, that makes everything they fought for suspect.
3) “When civilized man can no longer stand the horror of war and refuses to fight, then he will surely be killed or enslaved by the uncivilized who can.”
Author Unknown
AmVet
March 19th, 2009
4:26 pm
Oops, make that Billion with a B. Still a staggering amount of money…
Rush Limbaugh for President
March 19th, 2009
4:29 pm
I Report/You Whine
How do you manage to turn every subject into a partisan spew? Israel had every right to try and stop the rocket fire. That does not make it right to make the mistakes in judgement their own soliders said they made in the process. Do you not have one objective bone in your body? I am not sure wich is lower, your age or your IQ.
Observer
March 19th, 2009
4:32 pm
bdatlanta @ 4:09 writes about Israel, “Can’t they handle their own finances?”
Isn’t every other country on the globe in a position to ask the same thing about us right now?
Paul
March 19th, 2009
4:33 pm
[[The fact that Israel is willing to publicly confront that damage is testament to its values as a democracy.]]
And that is one thing that distinguishes Israel from other countries in the region.
President Urkel
March 19th, 2009
4:37 pm
I’ll get right over there and have a stern discussion with both sides, after I see how my brackets turned out!
Paul
March 19th, 2009
4:38 pm
AmVet 4:26
Comprehending the incomprehensible. Washington has made us jaded when it comes to large numbers.
Did you once mention you spent time in, where, Turkey? As I read Jay’s link I was reminded of a story told me by a friend who was stationed in Turkey at an air base. Said when he first got there his escort pointed out a boundary and told him not to cross it. Ever. He asked why and was told “that Turkish soldier there will shoot you.” My friend asked, can’t he see I’m American military?” Response was, doesn’t matter. His orders are to shoot anyone who crosses that line.
We could go on about education and judgment and all kinds of things. Mrs. G had it – war is hell. But it is largely the West, or those countries who adhere to Western values, who try to make it a bit less hellish.
The REAL GodHatesTrash, Superstar
March 19th, 2009
4:45 pm
It is sad how much the Bookman RightWingnnutterbutters think war is a solution to everything. They have the ethical and moral development of marauding chimpanzees.
Laughably, many call themselves “Christians”, despite the bloodlust and hate in their hearts.
As if Christ Himself was some kind of bloodthirsty jackal.
Civilian/Private/Corporal
March 19th, 2009
4:47 pm
Rush Limbaugh for President:
Greetings. Good to hear from you.
1) Vietnam was a political war. They could not have cared less about the U.S. before we arrived or after we left. Iraq/Afghanistan (and I know this is politically incorrect) a religious war. We forget that at our peril.
If you can’t control the borders …….. you will lose (especially after you leave the area to the host army). In Korea we controlled the borders because it was a peninsula (250 miles wide at the DMZ). In Vietnam we couldn’t control the borders (only 43 miles wide at the DMZ) because of Laos/Cambodia running the length of the country on the west. If instead Vietnam had been a peninsula with the “Sea of Thailand” on the west and the Pacific Ocean on the east, we wouldn’t even be having this dialogue.
2) Of course one can compromise on many things. The problem is, the more important an issue becomes the less one can compromise (slavery, abortion, what will destroy this country, etc.)
3) Absolutely, I believe in being “civil” but not in being politically correct; professional but not “Wilbur Milktoast”.
4) Yes, many of the political views that Limbaugh proposes I also believe in. I have no trouble separating his personal life from those views.
P.S. George Washington owned slaves, slept around and who knows what else but I respect a lot of what he said about keeping this country going down the right road.
5) As I said before (just as I felt about President Bush) I hope President Obama succeeds when what he does is right for this country and I hope he fails when he does what is wrong. However, I don’t think he is precisely a socialist – I think he may (repeat may) be even a little worse. One man’s opinion.
Have you read “Dreams of my Father”? I have. It’s very enlightening as to who he “really” is.
It’s just that simple.
Civilian/Private/Corporal
March 19th, 2009
4:50 pm
The REAL GodHatesTrash, Superstar:
“I saw heaven standing open and there before me was a white horse, whose rider is called Faithful and True. With justice he judges and makes war. His eyes are like blazing fire, and on his head are many crowns. He has a name written on him that no one knows but he himself. He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and his name is the Word of God. The armies of heaven were following him, riding on white horses and dressed in fine linen, white and clean. Out of his mouth comes a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations. “He will rule them with an iron scepter.”[a] He treads the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God Almighty. On his robe and on his thigh he has this name written:
KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS.
Paul
March 19th, 2009
4:51 pm
Real Superstar
[[It is sad how much the Bookman RightWingnnutterbutters think war is a solution to everything]]
I’ve read posts here for quite a while and somehow I don’t recall anyone ever making such an assertion.
I Report/ You Whine
March 19th, 2009
4:56 pm
RLFP: Awful touchy aren’t we?
I guess I must have intruded on a Jew hating blog, well, pardon me.
Civilian/Private/Corporal
March 19th, 2009
5:00 pm
Paul:
Let’s see what he says about the description of the returning “King” in my 4:50. It’s funny (sad really) how people pick only the “Jesus” they want vs. the real deal ….. a loving (yes) but also Holy, Righteous God who will not condone evil.
Rush Limbaugh for President
March 19th, 2009
5:21 pm
I Report/ You Whine
What makes this a Jew hating blog? I am a staunch supporter of Israel and their right to defend themselves. They happen to be a democratic and transparent society like we are and it hurts to see them have to admit they made some pretty serious errors in Gaza. It raises their stature in my eyes to see them admit their mistakes.
You seem incapable of seeing both sides of an issue which reduces your credibility. You just spew.
I Report/ You Whine
March 19th, 2009
5:33 pm
It raises their stature in my eyes to see them admit their mistakes.
RLFP- I would let it play out a bit more before I jumped to any conclusions, this lib Bookman is known for taking advantage of unsubstantiated rumors from anonymous sources.
My first thoughts are that Israel probably did try to destroy the terrorists capacity to attack their country and I’m willing to bet there is more to the story than what we are hearing.
Let’s not “Rush” to judgment, eh?
Civilian/Private/Corporal
March 19th, 2009
5:41 pm
Rush Limbaugh for President:
Did you see my 4:47 especially the question you asked about V.N. ?
The REAL GodHatesTrash, Superstar
March 19th, 2009
6:20 pm
If you believe in fairy tales, which obviously many of you do, Jesus Christ brought with Him a new covenant, one that challenges the crazy speechifying of the old prophets.
Try this one on, “Christians”. Supposedly straight from the mouth of the Man Himself:
Matthew 5:38-42
You have learned that they were told, “Eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth.” But what I tell you is this: Do not set yourself against the man who wrongs you. If someone slaps you on the right cheek, turn and offer him your left. If a man wants to sue you for your shirt, let him have your coat as well. If a man in authority makes you go one mile, go with him two. Give when you are asked to give; and do not turn your back on a man who wants to borrow.
And this one, too:
Matthew 5:43-48
You have learned that they were told, “Love your neighbor, hate your enemy.” But what I tell you is this: Love your enemies and pray for your persecutors; only so can you be children of your heavenly Father, who makes his sun shine on good and bad alike, and sends the rain on the honest and the dishonest. If you love only those who love you, what reward can you expect? Surely the tax-gatherers do as much as that. And if you greet only your brothers, what is there extraordinary about that? Even the heathen do as much. There must be no limit to your goodness, as your heavenly Father’s goodness knows no bounds.
And this one:
Luke 6:27-36
Love your enemies; do good to those who hate you; bless those who curse you; pray for those who treat you spitefully. When a man hits you on the cheek, offer him the other cheek too; when a man takes your coat, let him have your shirt as well. Give to everyone who asks you; when a man takes what is yours, do not demand it back. Treat others as you would like them to treat you. If you love only those who love you, what credit is that to you? Even sinners love those who love them. Again, if you do good only to those who do good to you, what credit is that to you? Even sinners do as much. And if you lend only where you expect to be repaid, what credit is that to you? Even sinners lend to each other to be repaid in full. But you must love your enemies and do good; and lend without expecting any return; and you will have a rich reward: you will be sons of the Most High, because he himself is kind to the ungrateful and wicked. Be compassionate as your Father is compassionate.
I know, I know, Bookman RightWingnutterbutters love the Old Testament – with its incest, mayhem, murder, thievery, treachery, betrayal, ancient hatreds, retribution, perversion, mindless violence, et. al..
But it is hard to find that kind of crap coming from the mouth of Jesus, now, isn’t it?
Civilian/Private/Corporal
March 19th, 2009
6:54 pm
The REAL GodHatesTrash, Superstar:
As I have so often said, “a text taken out of context is no text”.
Now:
1) You made no comment on the verse I supplied which gives the final chapter on what God will do with “nations” who rebel against Him.
2) You only like/quote one side of the “Holy” coin if you will. God is love and He is also wrath. He is love because He came to die for us. He is wrath because all of those who reject Him will spend eternity in hell (I don’t like that personally but I don’t make the rules).
3) Jesus called the religious rulers/political leaders of His day “vipers” and “whitewashed graves” and then later He said, “Father, forgive them for they know not what they do”. He made a WHIP, and “drove the money changers out of the Temple, overturning their tables …..”
4) How about these ……..
Joel 3:10
“Beat your plowshares into swords and your pruning hooks into spears. Let the weakling say, “I am strong!”
Luke 22:36
“He (Jesus) said to them, “But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you don’t have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one.”
5) Check this out when you have some extra time:
http://www.gac.20m.com/self-def.htm
“and ye shall know the truth and the truth shall make you free” …..
By the way, do you know the above verse is engraved in marble in huge letters as you walk into the lobby of the C.I.A. ………. separation of church and state ………..
)
Paul
March 19th, 2009
6:55 pm
Superstar
How do you account for (the admittedly symbolic) book of Revelation, with God unleashing all the disease, war, famine, pestilence, etc etc etc.?
Civilian/Private/Corporal
March 19th, 2009
7:12 pm
Paul:
God is also a God of judgement. People don’t like that.
The Bible says, “even Satan can disguise himself as an angel of light”.
There is a lot of false doctrine out there …. “search the scriptures that ye may know them.”
Bottom line: If it is contrary to God’s Word …. it’s false.
The best way is to know what genuine doctrine is?
I spent years investigating counterfeit currency. There is only one genuine but literally hundreds of thousands of counterfeit types because every new counterfeit is different.
When you testify on the witness stand you don’t start by saying it’s counterfeit because …… and then start listing the defects. No, you simply state it’s counterfeit because it’s NOT GENUINE and state what the “genuine” characteristics are!
The same is true of scripture. If it’s not “genuine” it’s automatically counterfeit !
The REAL GodHatesTrash, Superstar
March 19th, 2009
7:20 pm
Well, Thomas Jefferson, one of y’alls Founding Father “demi-gods”, omitted Revelations from the Bible he edited, and wrote that he “considered it as merely the ravings of a lunatic, no more worthy nor capable of of explanation than the incoherences of our own nightly dreams.” Both Luther and Calvin found it trash, too.
But you RightWingnutterbutters want to live your whole lives based on the lunacy and sorcerer stories in Revelations.
Revelations is dangerous literature in the hands of feeble, febrile minds.
Civilian/Private/Corporal
March 19th, 2009
7:28 pm
The REAL GodHatesTrash, Superstar:
O.K. I think you’re wrong (and probably 95% of Christianity would disagree with you AND Jefferson) but throw that out if that is what you want. But you’re still evading.
What about the other quotes I gave you from Jesus ???
Civilian/Private/Corporal
March 19th, 2009
7:50 pm
The REAL GodHatesTrash, Superstar:
2nd Post …. not sure what happened to one I sent earlier …
O.K. If you don’t believe in Revelation (no one understands it fully) throw that out. Your choice. But you are still evading.
What about the other passages I gave you about Jesus?
Civilian/Private/Corporal
March 19th, 2009
9:49 pm
OH MY GOODNESS !!!!!!!!!!!!!
HEADLINE: “Obama on Leno: Bowling Skills ‘Like the Special Olympics’”
Can you imagine if a Republican President had said that? Watch the DOUBLE STANDARD go into overtime now …………………
Joey
March 20th, 2009
6:53 am
No where in Jay’s post or within the two links did I find the word Hamas. Three news stories about Israel and Gaza with no mention of Hamas. An indication to me that the “news” sources have a goal other than honest reporting.
Did any of the civilian casualities provide Hamas Guerrillas with housing or cover? Did any of them store Hamas weapons and ammunition? If so, a claim innocents is difficult to prove.
How many innocent civilian Gazans did Hamas kill?
Copyleft
March 20th, 2009
8:31 am
Gee, an article about Israel didn’t mention Hamas. I understand that some news stories about Great Britain don’t mention the U.S. either. Shocking!
Joey
March 20th, 2009
9:00 am
Copyleft: The three articles were about Gaza, Israel and the recent fighting. Let’s see; Gaza, Israel, recent fighting: Why mention Hamas?
LeeH1
March 20th, 2009
9:21 am
“He hit me back first!” is usually the cry of the person who lost. Hamas has said again and again that they were going to kill the Israeli men and boys, enslave their women, and take their property. They attack and kill again and again. They shoot rockets at civilians.
Now they whine about mistreatment and that the Jews don’t treat them fairly. Umm Nidal, a Gazan member of parliament who has sent all her sons out to kill Israeli civilians, hates Israel more than she loved her children. With that kind of hate, is it any wonder that civilized soldiers sometimes lose their detachment, and strike back blindly?
I would. Up the Jews!
Gerald Ball
March 20th, 2009
10:55 pm
Civilian/Private/Corporal:
Quit wasting your time on God Hates Trash. He is just another arrogant person who A) doesn’t realize that he hates Christians as much as he CLAIMS that Christians hate everyone else and B) thinks that he knows more about Christianity and the Bible than believers that have actually spent their lifetimes studying our religion do. People of his ilk think that world history began with the Scopes trials, and have no idea that had it not been for Christianity, modern western scholarship wouldn’t exist, because modern western scholarship was developed at universities founded by Christians and for Christians, were funded by Christians, were run by Christians, and whose primary function was to train theologians and pastors. People like God Hates Trash have no idea that he has Christian scholars – including the hated missionaries – to thank for many places in the world having a written language and modern medicine and agriculture. Not only do people like him reject the Bible, but they also reject recorded history, because were they to acknowledge the truth about all of the great scientists, philosophers, authors, artists, leaders, etc. that were Christian (indeed, even long after the Enlightenment, most of the west’s great thinkers, leaders and institutions were still Christian) it would be inconvenient to depict Christians as a bunch of mouth breathing knuckle draggers. When you are as full of hate as people like this fellow is, you will never admit the truth. They are wastes of time and effort.