AIG: When everything changes, but nothing changes
There’s only one story this morning: AIG, and all it has come to represent. The maddening excesses; the cool, destructive incompetence of its executives; the galling arrogance of those who insist that they deserve the millions that a distorted, corrupted system showers upon them.
They insist that even now, as the rest of us gaze out over the smoldering wreckage of the economy that they helped create, and people are getting understandably angry.
So what do you do with a justified sense of raw, national outrage, when venting that outrage would be self-destructive? Do we just swallow it and move on?
In a purely rational world, maybe so. This is not that world.
In many ways, this is a problem of boundaries — boundaries between eras, between value systems, between systems, boundaries that we refuse to fully cross. We’re trying to pretend that we’re half-pregnant; we’re trying to pretend that AIG and other major companies aren’t dead, they’re just undead. We’re trying to pretend that half-measures will work, but the lesson of AIG may be that none of that’s true.
Between last spring, when the AIG bonus contracts were signed, and the spring of ‘09, when the contracts came due, an era came to brutal, flamboyant end. How do you handle employment contracts that were written before the crash but are wildly inappropriate and provocative in a post-crash environment?
How do you convince Wall Street and the banksters — and the former Wall Streeters and banksters now in government trying to fix this mess — that the pre-crash mindset is profoundly unacceptable, that financial experts cannot be paid millions of dollars to “fix” a system they broke, especially when their actions contributed to putting millions of people out of work and out of their homes?
We are told that if AIG didn’t pay those bonuses, its employees would leave and collect similar money at competing companies. Which raises a question: What are those other companies still doing paying such sums? Trillions of public dollars have been committed to propping up the private system, and people are still being allowed to skim and scam their “share” of those trillions as if nothing had changed?
Then there’s the boundary between government and business, which AIG in its current form is trying to straddle awkwardly. The company is 79.9 percent owned by U.S. taxpayers, because at 80 percent it would become nationalized and Washington and New York balked at that thought.
But at 80 percent taxpayer ownership, those previous bonus contracts would have been voided, and the restructuring process AIG could have been much more aggressive. We are trying to run AIG on government money and private-enterprise values, and the combination doesn’t work.
We’re playing that same game even now at GM and Ford and major banks, maintaining the fiction that they aren’t really bankrupt and that government money can keep them both private and whole. Maybe it’s best to let them fall into bankruptcy, so the legacy arrangements and legacy mindsets can be wiped clean.
That old world and that old way of doing things is over. Make the break and move on. Rhetorically, President Obama has been trying to send that message of changed times to Wall Street, but he and his advisers haven’t acted as if they believe it themselves. They are still trying to finesse a transition that ought to be quick and final, and by doing so they have made themselves victims of the contradictions they refuse to address.
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© 2009 The Atlanta Journal-Constitution
159 comments Add your comment
Copyleft
March 18th, 2009
8:49 am
I agree that the Obama administration has been too moderate and corporate-friendly in its approach thus far. Bold action is needeed, and there’s no reason to try to keep the old system propped up when it’s already proven not to work.
Go ahead and take ownersip of AIG and restructure it in a way that’s more accountable to the people and more suited to our needs. Hopefully, the era of CEO god-kings has finally ended and we can restore some sense of proportion and accountability to our marketplace.
Copyleft
March 18th, 2009
8:49 am
I regret the typos; no coffee yet this morning. 8~)
Curious Observer
March 18th, 2009
8:50 am
The entire country is in an uproar about the use of 1/10 of 1 percent of the bailout money for executive bonuses, when the real issue is whether there should have been a bailout at all. Get a life, folks.
I Report/ You Whine
March 18th, 2009
8:53 am
It’s almost as though Fannie Mac never existed in your little world, Bookman.
Truth
March 18th, 2009
8:53 am
1/10 of 1 percent… Look at all the pork projects that cost taxpayers much more than this. Where is the outrage?
I Report/ You Whine
March 18th, 2009
8:58 am
We’re playing that same game even now at GM and Ford and major banks, maintaining the fiction that they aren’t really bankrupt and that government money can keep them both private and whole. Maybe it’s best to let them fall into bankruptcy, so the legacy arrangements and legacy mindsets can be wiped clean.
You know, I remember a time when someone, who’s name I won’t mention (Bookman,) argued that union pensions and benefits paid to the autoworkers was not the cause of their industry’s monstrous money losses.
Huh, they always come around to my way, don’t they?
Civilian/Private/Corporal
March 18th, 2009
8:59 am
Jay:
We are trying to “pretend” we are not evolving into a destructive, dangerous, socialist (Democrats and Republicans), anti-freedom loving and anti-personal responsibilty country a la Europe. If this is the legacy we are leaving our children and grandchildren then we are the first in over 200 years to drop that torch and we should be ashamed.
God help us.
Taxpayer:
I owe you an apology. I was a little harsh last night when I dubbed you “Taxcheater”. Not knowing whether or not you practice felonious tax methods or not, that was unfair. I thought about “Taxevader” but that too was off base.
I therefore knight thee “Taxavoider” which is perfectly legal with a good accountant.
It is written. Let it be so.
Civilian/Private/Corporal
March 18th, 2009
9:02 am
To Curious Observer and Truth:
Exactly. As his chief of staff said, “never waste a crisis (especially a fake one I would add) to make change”. They are using this in an attempt to change our whole system (this is just the tip of the iceberg) and the unwashed, ignorant, non-tax paying masses waiting for their free house and car payments are like lemmings going off the cliff.
I Report/ You Whine
March 18th, 2009
9:06 am
Your right when you say we don’t need to focus on anything but the Obambi AIG torture chamber, haha, but this is pretty good-
Dr. William Happer, currently a professor of Physics at Princeton University, said “Many people don’t realize that over geological time, we’re really in a CO2 famine now. Almost never has CO2 levels been as low as it has been in the Holocene [geologic epoch] – 280 [parts per million (ppm)] – that’s unheard of,” Happer said. “Most of the time, it’s at least 1,000 [ppm] and it’s been quite higher than that.”
Happer said that when CO2 levels were higher – much higher than they are now, the laws of nature still managed to function as we understand them today.
The whole entire liberal house of lying cards is crashing and burning.
Davo
March 18th, 2009
9:08 am
All this finger-wagging at AIG executives is laughable. Save all this moral indignation for your savior Obama. If he’s so smart why is it that he allowed these clowns to retain their control over AIG? They already proved themselves incompetant; how incompetant do you have to be to ignore that fact and just throw money at them hoping for a different result?
Keynesian idiots. This is a perfect example of how smooth govt ownership works.
getalife
March 18th, 2009
9:11 am
It would be a great thing if this outrage was directed at the “missing” trillions to get accountability for all that caused this disaster but it is not.
They will not hold themselves accountable and are happy with this outrage. I good distraction from the original disaster.
Goldie
March 18th, 2009
9:11 am
I think it’s quite funny that the right-wingnuts love to whine about having to pay for the “welfare society”, and yet many will defend the multi-million dollars bonuses paid to corporate execs after they’ve bankrupted their companies and asked for taxpayers’ help, and will defend those corporate execs because of some “contractual” obligation… just amazing.
Change has certainly not come one moment too soon to the White House, otherwise, just try to imagine what kind of a worse nightmare we would be waking up to today!
Bosch
March 18th, 2009
9:11 am
Corporal,
“and the unwashed, ignorant, non-tax paying masses waiting for their free house and car payments are like lemmings going off the cliff”
Funny how you are so apologetic to Taxpayer, and then turn around with a statement like that – which again, is based on nothing but your own prejudices.
And just how is our system being changed to socialism when we are spending all this money to prop up private companies?
And when has Obama or anyone in Congress even hinted that they plan for all private businesses to become government owned?
And do you for one second think this crisis is fake? That it’s not real? That it’s made up so that Obama can advance his secret hidden agenda?
You are retired military no? Who pays your pension or your retirement benefits?
Bosch
March 18th, 2009
9:12 am
Goldie,
Yeah, especially people like Corporal who worked for the government.
Bosch
March 18th, 2009
9:16 am
Davo,
The government doesn’t own AIG – but maybe it should.
Bosch
March 18th, 2009
9:18 am
I will admit though, we are in for some excellent political theater today.
Taxpayer
March 18th, 2009
9:20 am
I’m a Taxminimizer, legal version of course, Oh blog Artist formerly known as Corporal.
PJ
March 18th, 2009
9:21 am
Calling AIG the undead was very appropriate, the blood sucking Vampires with their ill-gotten gains. It seems that the Republicans in Congress have finally caught on. Even they are calling for taxing these bottom dwellers if that’s what it takes to recoup this money. The provision was in the original stimulus to stop this from happening but it was stripped out of the bill by the lobbyist, the Republican leadership in Congress and the former Administration in the dead of night. Now that this mess has hit the fan they want to act outraged. I guess better late then never. Some Republicans have called for lynching, boiling in oil and even mass suicide for these creeps. What a difference a scandal makes. Don’t get me wrong there is plenty of blame to go around, down to the American public itself, but to get to a bottom of a problem one must goes to the begining of an operation.
DB, Gwinnettian
March 18th, 2009
9:22 am
You know, I remember a time when someone, who’s name I won’t mention (Bookman,) argued that union pensions and benefits paid to the autoworkers was not the cause of their industry’s monstrous money losses.
Feel free to point out where he’s saying that in today’s column.
Civilian/Private/Corporal
March 18th, 2009
9:25 am
Bosch:
1) “A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves money from the public treasure. From that moment on the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most money from the public treasury, with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy followed by a dictatorship.” Alexander Tyler
Bosch: please note the masses have discovered this. People who coudn’t even name the Vice President or the three branches of government are responsible for putting Mr. Urkel in office. Sad.
2) “The American people will never knowingly adopt socialism. But, under the name of “liberalism,” they will adopt every fragment of the socialist program, until one day America will be a socialist nation, without knowing how it happened.” He went on to say: “I no longer need to run as a Presidential Candidate for the Socialist Party. The Democratic Party has adopted our platform.” Norman Thomas
Bosch: It’s happening right in front of you and you can’t see the forest for the trees. A journey of miles starts with one step …. government control of businesses.
3) As Frank Borman said: “Capitalism without bankruptcy is like Christianity without hell.” Most of this “crisis” is fake. Let more companies fail – they will reorganize. It will work itself out ………. it’s better than going into socialism.
And this part about the AIG bonuses IS A FAKE CRISIS. Have you added up just a couple of the “pork spending” boondoggles vs. the AIG bonuses? Give me a break. At least the AIG executives would use that to buy boats, and exepensive cars, and Hawaii vacations, and ……..
4) Who pays my pension? I do and people who “work” for a living and pay taxes ………. not the people who don’t. And by the way ….. unlike those other people I EARNED IT.
Davo
March 18th, 2009
9:25 am
Bosch,
Frank: We Own AIG, Now Let’s Act Like It
http://tpmdc.talkingpointsmemo.com/2009/03/frank-we-own-aig-now-lets-act-like-it.php?ref=fp7
Meet your new CEO, Barney Frank.
-barf-
Mrs. Godzilla
March 18th, 2009
9:26 am
It will all get better once Glenn Beck gets his own bunk in the FEMA
camp us socialist commie pinko liberal O of O folks are building to
actually keep the wingnuts in once we get them all rounded up.
Yipee Ki Yay!
Civilian/Private/Corporal
March 18th, 2009
9:27 am
To Taxavoider:
Sorry, but according to some of your friends the rules have changed. We no longer get to pick our own “handles”.
getalife
March 18th, 2009
9:29 am
You know we are living in crazy times whem Beck is a big star on fixed noise.
Those beckers are unhinged.
Taxpayer
March 18th, 2009
9:31 am
Jay,
We have two basic approaches in dealing with this whole financial meltdown:
1) work within the current legal framework as best we can and accept the consequences, such as legally binding contracts, at least until we are safely beyond the crisis mode of operation
2) throw caution to the wind and nationalize all the major financial institutions and accept those consequences.
So far, we seem to be staying closer to option 1 but if things get out of hand, who knows. Many people have said that we need to go ahead and nationalize at least temporarily and be done with it. But, nationalizing just goes the extra step of making the Fed the management as well and then the Fed would be negotiating contracts with the folks needed to do what still has to be done and maybe they would negotiate a better deal or maybe not. The end result is that the big mess is still there and it has to be cleaned up first before we can move on and do the other needed stuff such as put in some regulations and oversight and get good people in those jobs and get the IRS busy going after the multitudes of crooks, etc. This is one of those cases where you have to get past step 1 before it is even possible to deal with some other major issues.
By the way, has anyone seen a list of all the counterparties that AIG is involved with. I saw that 20 states are also identified so far.
Peadawg
March 18th, 2009
9:32 am
The sad thing is Obama knew that AIG was going to pay out bonuses. Only now, does he try to do something to stop it. Also, what about the story where Obama is trying to make veterans pay for their own health insurance for wounds they received while trying to defend this country?
The worst part about all this is Democrats still try to defend him.
Bosch
March 18th, 2009
9:34 am
Corporal,
1) I don’t know who you are referring to as Mr. Urkel, but I voted for Obama and I can certainly name the three brances of government. 52% or the American population voted for President Obama – it’s time you came to grips with that.
2) No it’s not. You can not name one single incident where the government has for one second stepped in and announced that they plan to permanently take over a private corporation.
3) I agree that the AIG bonuses outrage is a fake crisis – but that’s not what you were referring to earlier. You’re earlier statement by Frank whoever is not talking about the AIG bonuses – you are trying to back up your argument with something that isn’t even relevant to your own statement.
4) Who are “these people” you are referring to? Let me just guess – you are trying to stereotype the “Welfare Queen” types. Well, those don’t exist. Can you name one social program that exists today for people who are just too damn lazy to work and get money? No, you can’t.
Davo,
Barney Frank is a wacko – who cares what he says – as Jay mentioned earlier – the government does not own AIG – but maybe it’s time they bought up that extra percentage point so they can get these crooks out of it.
Barry
March 18th, 2009
9:34 am
Abolish the payroll (a.k.a. FICA) tax. Let’s let Hendrik Hertzberg of that notoriously right-wing magazine, The New Yorker, explain it: “The payroll tax…skims around fifteen percent from the payroll of every business and the paycheck of every worker, from minimum wage burger flippers on up, with no deductions. No exemptions either – except that everything above a hundred grand or so a year is untouched, which means that as salaries climb into the stratosphere the tax, as a percentage, shrinks to a speck far below. This is one reason Warren Buffet’s secretary (as her boss has unproudly noted) pays Uncle Sam a higher share of her income than he does. In fact, three-quarters of American households pay more in payroll tax than in income tax”. Read all about it in the March 23 issue – the one with the hilarious depiction of the Rushster on the cover. Annoyance alert – I will post this suggestion every day until we get some traction.
Joey
March 18th, 2009
9:36 am
Jay: You almost made it.
Next time try really hard to acknowledge that Frank, Dodd, Waters, Reid, Pelosi, Kennedy and Rangel were neck deep in the actions, yes actions, that lead to this mess. Hey, add as many Republican House and Senate member names as you want.
I Report/ You Whine
March 18th, 2009
9:36 am
My Lord this is getting so good-
A teleprompter blunder has led to Barack Obama thanking himself in a speech at the White House in a St Patrick’s Day celebration.
I can’t stand this anymore, the laughing is tearing me up inside, please, please, somebody make this stop, now!
Bosch
March 18th, 2009
9:36 am
Well apparently I can’t spell “branches” but I can certainly name them.
Taxpayer
March 18th, 2009
9:36 am
getalife,
do you mean that a new life form has evolved — the beckerheads.
G
March 18th, 2009
9:41 am
People conveniently forget that President Obama wanted caps on ALL executive pay. But oh no, that could not happen! It was deemed some sort of “socialist plot” for the government to run corporations.
Now the same people agree that a portion of this pay should be taxed at 100% to recover – because of public outrage.
The problem is, people accept these myopic arguments being made in the media, and the idea that this somehow is and should be a political disaster for the President.
It’s completely insane.
Amazing how this fact is getting lost in the right wing noise machine.
william reese
March 18th, 2009
9:42 am
Hey Curious Observer…When you’ve got a big zit like AIG on your forehead..165 million shows like a big whitehead.Enjoy your latte.
Civilian/Private/Corporal
March 18th, 2009
9:43 am
Bosch:
1) Steve Urkel http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steve_Urkel
Sure “you” can name the three braches of government but Mr. Urkel was elected largely by those who can’t. That’s the point of the masses being able to vote themselves from the “public Treasury”. Sad. It basically boils down to “taxation without representation” when those who pay NONE can DICTATE to those who DO and you know what that caused.
2) Do you think they would do it all at once overnight? Is that they way it happened in other countries? No…….it’s “frog in the kettle time” and that’s why even you can’t see it.
3) Both are in large part fake. Just my opinion. Once you started bailing out the first one the others had no incentive to change. Let a few go down the tubes and you would have seen a big difference.
4) We have raised whole generations (white and black) who have no work ethic – no role models. If you can’t see that I can’t help you.
Enjoying the debate. This is what it is all about.
Brad Steal
March 18th, 2009
9:43 am
Jay writes: “We are told that if AIG didn’t pay those bonuses, its employees would leave and collect similar money at competing companies.”
“We” are suppose to believe this assertion and we are suppose to sit still while we are fed the line that “well.. we have a contract”. This sounds like a pandering line form the Bush years.
1. We should let the AIG twits leave. We should insist on it.
2. F’ the contract. Sue us.
The pabulum we are suppose to be accepting is condescending crap. No one is buying the reasoning. And no one should.
Joey
March 18th, 2009
9:43 am
Bosch: We all need to care what Barney Frank says and does. I agree with you that he is a wacko, but he is a powerful wacko who has helped do a lot of harm to our economy.
Civilian/Private/Corporal
March 18th, 2009
9:45 am
To You Report/I Whine:
HA! HA! Mr. Urkel is amazing ……..
By the way, have you read “Dreams of my Father”? I’m almost through.
Comment
March 18th, 2009
9:48 am
destructive incompetence — pretty well sums up the current administration.
Please comment or correct me on the following — The current administration was aware of these contracts before signing off on the bail-out; and provisions to stop these “bonuses” in any future bail-outs were deleted from the stim bill by the current administration — correct???
Civilian/Private/Corporal
March 18th, 2009
9:49 am
Bosch:
What’s this !!! Breaks in the ranks ?
HEADLINE: “Some Dems want brake in Obama plans … ”
http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0309/20150.html
Joey
March 18th, 2009
9:50 am
G: Why was President Obama unsuccessful in his effort to cap executive pay?
G
March 18th, 2009
9:51 am
Well, thank you, Bush. Let’s leave everything up to the states. They do such a phenomenal job.
http://www.cnn.com/video/#/video/us/2009/03/18/rich.getting.food.stamps.wlwt
Hillbilly Deluxe
March 18th, 2009
9:51 am
Jay writes: “We are told that if AIG didn’t pay those bonuses, its employees would leave and collect similar money at competing companies”
Yet 11 of the 74 who received bonuses of $1 million or more have already left the company according to CNN. That’s a shade under 15% who didn’t think the bonus they received was reason enough to hang around.
Don’t give them any more money. Let them fail and take our lumps. We’re only prolonging the inevitable anyway. It’s going to be painful and there’s no way around it.
Observer
March 18th, 2009
9:51 am
The fault for the AIG bonus debacle lies with those that crammed the original $700 billion bailout down our throats in two days. They handed out the money with little or no restriction and they drafted the legislation with little or no forethought.
People like Chris Dodd went so far as to ensure, under the terms of the bailout, that contractual bonuses would be paid (funny how Dodd is one of the ones screaming the loudest now). Interestingly, Dodd is the senior senator from Connecticut – the same state where AIG is based.
If our lawmakers were truly interested in acting in the interest of fiscal responsibility with OUR money, they would have written some stringent limitations into the language of the bailout. They didn’t. Period. The fault lies in Washington.
Truth
March 18th, 2009
9:51 am
Obama has become a puppet for the morons in DC. He needs to show some backbone and point out the real problem… (Frank, Dodd, etc.)
Civilian/Private/Corporal
March 18th, 2009
9:51 am
To Comment:
Here you go:
HEADLINE: Fake Outrage? AIG Bonuses Known Months Ago
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2009/03/18/politics/main4873238.shtml?tag=topStory;topStoryHeadline
Bosch
March 18th, 2009
9:52 am
Corporal,
1) You are not worthy of debate if you are going to so adolescently compare the President of the United States to a fictional sit com character. Your credibility is worthless in this part of the discussion.
2) It’s not gonna happen overnight or ever. That’s a fictional neo-con ghost story made up to scare everyone with absolutely no basis in reality.
3) I disagree.
4) I agree that we have raised a whole generation of lazy, unmotivated workers with no work ethic. I see more of those in traditional “white collar” jobs.
Again, there is no such thing as a social program for folks who are just too lazy to work, and until you can name one, this discussion need go any further.
Davo
March 18th, 2009
9:53 am
Here’s how it works…ummm…I mean, here’s how Obama manipulates the economy.
Citigroup’s top economist tapped for Treasury post
(you know, the company that needed a multi-billion dollar bail-out from the Federal Government)
http://finance.yahoo.com/news/Citigroups-top-economist-apf-14671442.html
Change….whatever. Obama is looking alot like W these days…when are we gonna get a real leader.
Wyld Byll Hyltnyr
March 18th, 2009
9:55 am
Jay, you write, “But at 80 percent taxpayer ownership, those previous bonus contracts would have been voided, and the restructuring process AIG could have been much more aggressive.”
Oh Jay, baby, ooh, baby, ooh, you’re the best and I learn so much from you. Please tell me how shareownership effects and incorporated entity’s obligations under an existing contract? Whether the Fed owns 1% or 100%, it seems, to me, that the corporation’s obligations under a contract do not change.
Part of the problem with the Fuhrer Obama’s liberal kristallnacht against bankers and capitalism is the consistently erroneous information fed into the argument by the liberal media.
Observer
March 18th, 2009
9:56 am
Barry @ 9:34 – The reason Warren Buffet’s secretary pays a higher income tax rate than he does is because he earns very little in income. His money is earned in the form of capital gains which, of course, are (currently) taxed at a much lower rate than ordinary income.
Mr. Buffet’s statement, while technically accurate, is very misleading.
Bosch
March 18th, 2009
9:56 am
Joey,
Frank is a minor player of many – he is not solely responsible for the failure of the economy. Please be serious.
Midori
March 18th, 2009
9:57 am
Bosch,
I suspect Andy and the Corporal are desperately trying to find something unseemly and derogatory about Obama in order to make themselves feel better about supporting a drug and alcolhol sotted imbicile.
They try real, real hard at trying to compare a peach to a turd.
It’s amusing to watch.
Bush isn’t capable or man enough to carry Obama’ jock strap.
Taxpayer
March 18th, 2009
9:59 am
Commentary: GOP’s “small government” talk is hollow.
Hollow is an understatement. A panderer’s lie would be a good start to a more appropriate description.
Civilian/Private/Corporal
March 18th, 2009
10:01 am
Bosch:
1) So all humor is out? Including any political cartoons by Luckovich? Or anything humerous (or otherwise) that was said about President Bush. My, my we are being a little self-righteous today aren’t we? You libs. can dish it out but you sure have trouble taking it.
2) We agree to disagree.
3) We agree to disagree.
4) Any person who has never worked a day in their life just because they are a lazy jerk and would never pick up shovel can have a medical problem and walk into a hospital and by law you and I have to pay for it. How about that one?
P.S.
I know you have probably seen this before but where do you think we are on this chart? No agendy/argument here. Just curious.
“During those 200 years, nations always progressed through the
following sequence:
1. from bondage to spiritual faith;
2. from spiritual faith to great courage;
3. from courage to liberty;
4. from liberty to abundance;
5. from abundance to complacency;
6. from complacency to apathy;
7. from apathy to dependence;
8. From dependence back into bondage”
Civilian/Private/Corporal
March 18th, 2009
10:02 am
Bosch:
Are you going to let Midori talk like that?
Civilian/Private/Corporal
March 18th, 2009
10:05 am
Bosch:
P.S. re: your #4 @ 9:52.
And since we “agree” on this one, what is your opinion as to “why” we have raised generations of people who are that lazy?
Goldie
March 18th, 2009
10:07 am
For all you right-wingnut trolls:
{”White House Calls Bonuses a Late Surprise
Congress Moves to Impose Hefty Tax on Executives Who Don’t Return Money
By Shailagh Murray, Paul Kane and Michael D. Shear
Washington Post Staff Writers
Wednesday, March 18, 2009; A01
Senior White House officials said last night that President Obama did not learn that bonuses worth $165 million were to be paid to executives of American International Group until Thursday, one day before they were issued and two days after his Treasury secretary was informed that the payments were going forward.”}
Like I said before, THANK GOD we don’t have the Republiturds in charge of the White House or Congress today — otherwise, we’d be listening to them defend paying those corporate criminals even more $$$ in order to be “trickled on” forever and ever!
Civilian/Private/Corporal
March 18th, 2009
10:08 am
Regaring Congress’ attempt to cancell the AIG contract/bonus program ….
Article 1 Section 9
No Bill of Attainder or ex post facto Law shall be passed.
Article 1 Section 10
No State shall enter into any Treaty, Alliance, or Confederation; grant Letters of Marque and Reprisal; coin Money; emit Bills of Credit; make any Thing but gold and silver Coin a Tender in Payment of Debts; pass any Bill of Attainder, ex post facto Law, or Law impairing the Obligation of Contracts, or grant any Title of Nobility.
Brad Steal
March 18th, 2009
10:10 am
Observer ignorantly blithers: “Barry @ 9:34 – The reason Warren Buffet’s secretary pays a higher income tax rate than he does is because he earns very little in income. His money is earned in the form of capital gains which, of course, are (currently) taxed at a much lower rate than ordinary income. Mr. Buffet’s statement, while technically accurate, is very misleading.”
This is the type exact type of regurgitated crap that should be expected from the wingnuts. These mysterious “capital gains” also referred to as “interest carry” by the hedge fund guys is money earned by rich guys that gets treated more favorably by the rich guy slanted tax code.
It is a bunch of obsfucating phony baloney rhetoric. Only boobs, like Observer, can’t see through the lies.
Joey
March 18th, 2009
10:10 am
Bosch: Seriouly, helped and soley are not synonyms.
mm
March 18th, 2009
10:11 am
Yeah, these bailouts suck. But the smarter people realize what would have happened to our economy if we had let all of these banks fail.
I hope they tax these bonuses 100 percent. If they can’t stop them, take them away.
Jay, if Barry wants to post the tired old mantra of “abolish payroll tax” everyday, you might need to ban him. We’ve had to read that foolishness long enough.
Peadog, the taxing of healthcare won’t fly, so why don’t you wingnuts give it a rest already.
Wyld Byll Hyltnyr
March 18th, 2009
10:12 am
Midori 9:57 am
The liberal mythology of President Obama stacks up quite well against President Bush, that is until one moves past “jess wordts” to that which Kunte has done, or, more importantly, has not done.
What an extraordinary and honourable man that President Bush for the way in which he subordinated his own ego to the nation’s good by indicating that he shan’t comment on President Obama’s (lack of) performance.
Quite different than President Obama who chose to demonize AIG employees and conduct a Nazi-eque Kristallnacht against people who did little more than make a mutually beneficial deal and live up to their end of it. Also, a far cry from the “imbecile” who thanked himself due a telepromter error.
Bosch
March 18th, 2009
10:13 am
Corporal,
1) Humor is fine with me, but you’re changing the subject. The original topic was about the people who elected Obama are so stupid they can’t name the branches of government, yet we all know that ain’t true and you are wiggling your way out of it.
4) Again, you are changing the subject – I’m not sure what you are even talking about anymore.
So, are you’re saying that you don’t like it that a lazy jerk who doesn’t want to work can go to a hospital and be seen by a doctor if he’s/she’s sick and we have to pay for it. Well, so can you, so can the elderly, so can children, so can lots of people who DO happen to work for a living. That’s not a social program.
We don’t have a say in how our tax money is spent, but I certainly do not have a problem with helping out sick people when they need care.
But if you are talking about disability – it is very hard to qualify for – I’ve had to help my aunt fill out the paper work and it’s very, very hard to get these days. You can’t just go in the hospital and claim to have a bad back and then whammo – instant money. And those who do qualify? It’s not enough to live on.
Joey
March 18th, 2009
10:15 am
Goldie: Wonder why Presidents Obama’s Cabinet kept that information from him?
Taxpayer
March 18th, 2009
10:15 am
I’m certainly interested in seeing where this issue of executive pay ultimately ends up because this current topic of AIG’s bonuses will ultimately put more focus on all those businesses that are getting taxpayer money, for starters. Funny how the conservatives (Republicans) have not shown much interest in those other companies though. Maybe we can change their mindset a little. This issue and the issue of tax cheats are just two of many more to come. This is change that I can accept. It’s change that is long overdue.
AmVet
March 18th, 2009
10:16 am
Banksters! Good one, Mr. Bookman.
Though the ill-informed, undereducated, myopic Republiconned here still shuck and grin for the criminals, the rest of the nation is outraged at the gangster capitalism and its devastating consequences, these crooks created and nurtured.
I should find it appalling that the faithful frauds aka the fiscal conservatives will, to their dying days, glorify the wicked and vilify the weak. But hey were talking about a group of people who not only swallowed hook, line and sinker all of the innumerable and deadly lies that BushCo spewed, they voted for these scumbags. Twice.
Heads need to roll. There should be widespread prosecutions.
And the idiots here act as if the attempts at righting a wrong done at the American taxpayers expense are meaningless gestures…
Wyld Byll Hyltnyr
March 18th, 2009
10:17 am
Bosch 10:13 am
Of course the people who elected Obama can name the branches of government. Dey’s the welfare branch. Dey’s the food stamp branch. Andt soon dey be the flat screen and rupturations branches.
Bosch
March 18th, 2009
10:17 am
Corporal,
I don’t “let” Midori do, say or write anything. Midori is her own person.
Are you asking me why I think people are lazy? Got a few days?
Joey,
Seriously, you and I helped damage the economy too – every buy anything from China?
Civilian/Private/Corporal
March 18th, 2009
10:21 am
Bosch:
1) Thank you for allowing me that Constitutional freedom of humor.
I say again, if you will read carefully, not everyone who voted for Mr. Urkel was ignorant as evidenced by your ability to name the three branches of government. However, millions who can’t name the three branches “did” vote for him and that is why he is president.
So we agree to disagree.
4) Yes that does bother me and it is a social program that forces hospitals to do that. There are others – but if you can’t see that I can’t help you. There are lazy people sitting home all day on all kinds of programs including food stamps. Good grief …. again – can you not see that?
Again – we agree to disagre.
AmVet
March 18th, 2009
10:23 am
Change my last sentence to read bigoted idiots…
Civilian/Private/Corporal
March 18th, 2009
10:25 am
Bosch:
1) Re: Midori. Of course she can say what she wants but if you were consistent you would say she was being unkind (as you felt I was with Urkel). But … it’s o.k. for you libs. Always the double standard.
2) I don’t have a few days but I would like a nice concise statement as to why we have raised generations of lazy people. I can give it to you in one sentence but you go first since I asked first ………..
Taxpayer
March 18th, 2009
10:27 am
These conservatives (Republicans) do provide quite a bit of amusement with their continued efforts to just do nothing other than complain about earmarks and not asking for them while they ask for them and gladly take them and complain that the President misspoke as he continues to take down the last eight years worth of death and destruction wrought on we the people by the conservatives (Republicans) and their failed policies such as preventive preemptive I’m so scared of the boogeyman invasions of countries, removal of all regulations and oversight for everything from financial weapons of mass destruction to toxic coal ash to peanuts, etc. And they still cannot figure out that they lost in the last elections or even why they lost. Pathetic is conservative (Republican).
Observer
March 18th, 2009
10:29 am
Brad Steal @ 10:10 writes, “It is a bunch of obsfucating phony baloney rhetoric. Only boobs, like Observer, can’t see through the lies.”
First off, thanks for the name-calling. I feel all warm and fuzzy now. BTW – you should either use “spell check” or learn how to spell before using words like “obfuscating” (spelled correctly).
As to anything phony in my post, I stated quite clearly that Mr. Buffet’s statement was technically true but misleading. His tax RATE is lower than his secretary’s due to the fact that his capital gains are taxed at a lower rate than her income. I think the inference he would hope the uneducated (you?) take from his statement is that his secretary pays more tax than he does.
Nothing in my prior post is anything but factual. Go call someone else names and get your facts straight before you post.
Time for me to go into a meeting and pay some taxes to cover those AIG bonuses. Have a great day, all – you too, Mr. Steal.
Joe Matarotz
March 18th, 2009
10:30 am
Bravo, Jay. You actually presented a column of substance. Well thought out and hitting the nail right on the head. Who did you copy it from?
Dave R
March 18th, 2009
10:32 am
OK, let’s bring it down to something very, very simple for all you libs out there (including Bookman).
If you don’t want bonuses paid to AIG executives, you should have let them fail and not given them bailout money with NO restrictions. You didn’t. You failed (again) to do what was right for the economy or the nation.
So sit down, shut up, and stop whining about the mess you couldn’t fix.
The easiest way for no one to ever do what AIG and their dumb-as-rocks investors did is to let them all go down with the sinking ship. Most people know that when your reckless actions will not have a life preserver attached, you suddenly become more responsible.
Don’t you?
Individual IR-responsibility was REWARDED, not punished with your nanny-state actions. When will you libs learn?
Copyleft
March 18th, 2009
10:35 am
DaveR: And since the bailouts came from BushCo. LAST year, please tell us again who’s “whining” and who “failed to fix the mess”?
Paul
March 18th, 2009
10:36 am
Where has anyone here – conservative or Republican or other – defended AIG bonuses or other executive compensation?
Taxpayer 10:27
You get the ‘longest sentence of the day’ award.
As far as prevention/preemption: what do you think of the President’s and Sec of State’s declarations that there is nothing they will not do (which means they’d do ‘anything’) to keep Iran from getting a nuke? Sounds like a preventive war’s brewing. Or at least a preemptive strike. After all, Iran hasn’t attacked us, have they?
Civilian/Private/Corporal
March 18th, 2009
10:36 am
To Bosch:
P.S.
Would it be “unkind” for Luckovich to draw a political cartoon showing President Obama (aka: Urkel) wearing a portable mini-teleprompter around his neck while using it to talk to his wife and kids over supper?
Would this be outside your bounds? Similar things were certainly fair game for President Bush now weren’t they?
Private Parts/Corporal Punishment
March 18th, 2009
10:37 am
Yes, it is the lazy social program peeples who have put this country in the ditch – not the hard working people like me. I say, if they can’t pull their own weight, let them starve, go untreated for sickness, and die. That’s the law of nature and we have to follow it!
Truth
March 18th, 2009
10:38 am
Taxpayer…. You sit daily on your keyboard name calling. You are so tough.
Copyleft
March 18th, 2009
10:38 am
Cheap shots, Corporal: “However, millions who can’t name the three branches “did” vote for him and that is why he is president.”
Millions more who don’t know their own state senators voted for McCain… in fact, many of them couldn’t name a single position he had on any issue. And that’s why Obama’s president, too.
To suggest that Obama could only have been elected because of “voter stupidity” vastly underestimates the stupidity of Republican voters.
Private Parts/Corporal Punishment
March 18th, 2009
10:40 am
He uses a teleprompter for speaches. the thought that he uses a teleprompter is soooo funny.
did i say he uses a teelprompter? i was so busy laughing that i forgot. a million laughs
Joey
March 18th, 2009
10:40 am
Bosch: You are actually equating buying goods made in China with being a Member of the House; or being Chairman of the House Financial Service Committee; or being the Ranking Democrat member in 2003 when Frank (and Waters) opposed transfering oversight of F-Mae and F-Mac to HUD.
Rush Limbaugh for President
March 18th, 2009
10:42 am
Wild Bill, Davo and Civilain/Private/ Corporal, I am glad to see you guys are on this blog gumming up good logic with our blindly partisan, facts don’t matter,right wing rants. I know you guys must listen to me daily because you are regurgitating every good point I ever made; no matter what, Obama caused it. You know the dumber my audience is the easier it is to brainwash them. You guys are great because your minds are a blank slate.
Civilian/Private/Corporal
March 18th, 2009
10:42 am
To Private Parts/Corporal Punishment:
I say a better way is to foster programs that get them out of this never ending cycle. It hasn’t worked for 50 years now. What say ye?
And yes …. when this applies:
II Thessalonians 3:10
“If a man will not work, he shall not eat.”
Wyld Byll Hyltnyr
March 18th, 2009
10:43 am
Copyleft 10:38 am
I’d bet everything that I own that the Republican party would sign up for a poll test in a NY minute, while the Democrats would claim that a poll test would be a discrimantory action to “hold down, man, the brown man.” (Which see, all the Tindy Cucker articles.) Does that give you the slightest hint of which party has the most literate and knowledgeable voters?
Bosch
March 18th, 2009
10:44 am
Corporal,
1) How do you know that the “millions” of people who voted for Obama can’t name the three branches of government? I could just as easily write that millions of people who voted for John McCain can’t name the three branches of government. Neither case can be proven – and again, what’s your point?
4) Anyone can walk into a hospital and get care – anyone. Our country is founded on the principles of equality – if we shut down such an operation for some, then we shut it down for all. You want that? You really want to see everyone who can’t afford medical treatment turned away because they can’t afford it? I don’t think you do.
I can’t possibly write why I think people are lazy in a few concise sentences. That’s not how my brain works. I don’t judge why people are the way they are based on sweeping generalizations and prejudices (well, there is one group of folks I do that with, but that’s another topic). But why people are lazy? No, I could never even begin to do that.
There are others? Name them. Food stamps? All people who get food stamps are lazy? No, all people who get food stamps qualify for them because of their income level or lack there of. It has nothing to do with laziness.
You are really showing your prejudcies here, Corporal.
Civilian/Private/Corporal
March 18th, 2009
10:44 am
To Rush Limbaugh for President:
If you want to engage in reasoned debate like Bosch and I did this morning then jump in. Otherwise, just have your little say and move on.
Taxpayer
March 18th, 2009
10:44 am
Truth, did I call you a name. Awww. Well, tough.
DB, Gwinnettian
March 18th, 2009
10:46 am
Wyld, what’s with the “Kunte” business?
I’m thinking in mixed company, your preferred term of endearment is “Sambo.”
(among the guys, well, we all know what you call him.)
Bosch
March 18th, 2009
10:47 am
Joey,
No, I’m not equating that, I’m saying (or rather writing) that placing blame on one person without looking at the big picture is rather futile.
PoliticalMan
March 18th, 2009
10:48 am
This entire financial disaster, fiasco, etc is almost funny. America is the land of pompous, fat, greedy, lying, sorry jerks. And we the stupid cheer them on. Stealing from the stupid and unknowing is as American as pie. If we had any guts at all, there would be about 10 or 20 thousand fat-catters in jail right now awaiting execution for destroying a nation. Since, we don’t have any guts, we give em bonuses. America – the land of the stupid and jerks.
Taxpayer
March 18th, 2009
10:48 am
Paul,
We’ll just have to wait and see where the rhetoric takes us. Regardless, I’ll take the path that Obama has laid out over any more of the death and destruction that the conservative (Republican) path has thrown our way.
Bosch
March 18th, 2009
10:48 am
Corporal,
No, it wouldn’t be “unkind” for Luckovich to draw such a cartoon – but it wouldn’t be funny. Most politicians use teleprompters.
Truth
March 18th, 2009
10:49 am
Taxpayer… typical childish behavior. You wouldnt last a second.
PJ
March 18th, 2009
10:49 am
Senator Dodd has strongly stated that when the stimulus bill left his desk that the provision about bonuses was not in there. CNN has the list of people who were in the closed door committee that finalized it and they have said they will not stop until they find out who put it in there. Already Republican Senator Grassley has said he was in there in name only. When we find out who put it in then we will know who added that provision. Either lobbyist, the Bush Administration or Republican Congress-persons did it if, Dodd is telling the truth, and no one in authority is disputing what he has said.
Most American taxpayers are really upset about these AIG bonuses. I don’t understand how anyone in their right mind can in any way defend these actions. They can blame the government, labor unions, the poor, immigrants, the under educated, liberals and fictional TV characters but the fault lies with how business is conducted, unchecked, in this nation. It has brought about class warfare and needs to. If someone on food stamps buys a steak in the grocery store I’ve heard outrage and indignation ten times more than some of you have shown on this blog about people who have gotten millions for poor job performance. “These people will by boats and homes to help this economy” when there are other people in this country who are loosing their only home. We have reached a sad state indeed.
Wyld Byll Hyltnyr
March 18th, 2009
10:50 am
DB, Gwinnettian 10:46 am
The extreme disregard shown by the liberals toward President Bush has never bothered you. Why would some disrespect toward one who is, by every objective measure, far less accomplished bother you now.
BTW – Kunte is not a racially denigrating term, rather it is a recognition that he is the first generation removed from Africa in his line.
DB, Gwinnettian
March 18th, 2009
10:50 am
Oh, about Wyld’s reference to
“the Fuhrer Obama’s liberal kristallnacht against bankers and capitalism”
For those who aren’t familiar with Wyld’s tasteful reference, a brief introduction.
Stay classy, Wyld.
DB, Gwinnettian
March 18th, 2009
10:51 am
Wyld, so you’re saying “I saw/heard others doing obnoxious things in the past so that excuses my obnoxious behavior.”
You kiss your mamma with that mouth?
Paul
March 18th, 2009
10:52 am
Copyleft 10:38
[[many of them couldn’t name a single position he had on any issue. And that’s why Obama’s president, too.]]
As I noted to DB in the previous thread at 10:37, “[[It’s our fault for not electing John McCain, who was going to ride to the rescue and stop the conservatives before they earmarked again.]]
“Actually, when I was reading about what Pres Obama really said about earmarks while he was Candidate Obama, it seems he wasn’t, as many of us thought, opposed to earmarks. His statements show he is okay with good earmarks, earmarks that are transparent. It came up in these same reports that Candidate McCain was the one who said “no earmark, period. None. Nada. Zilch.””
So it would appear that people had, on at least one issue, a clear misunderstanding of the President’s positions as candidate, while in reality they were more in agreement with Candidate McCain, and possibly that’s a reason Candidate Obama became president.
Hey Bosch
Didja see “The Last Frakkin Battlestar Galactica Special” on SciFi Monday night? Friday’s an 11-hour marathon, prepping for the finale. The cast said it’s a ‘satisfying’ conclusion and the creator said his moment of clarity for the final episode came when he realized it’s about the characters, not necessarily plot lines.
Somehow, I don’t find that entirely reassuring.