When does human life begin, and who gets to determine it?
When Barack Obama was asked during the campaign when human life began, he declined to answer, replying that such an issue was above his pay grade.
But some members of the Georgia Legislature are not crippled by such doubt and uncertainty. In Senate Bill 169, they propose to make it a matter of state law that “a living in vitro human embryo is a biological human being.” The bill also states that “in disputes arising between any parties regarding the in vitro embryo, the judicial standard for resolving such disputes shall be the best interest of the in vitro human embryo,” in effect giving it the status of a child.
With such statements, legislators are proposing a definitive answer to a question that has troubled philosophers, theologians and ethicists for centuries. And by putting it into law, they propose far more than an exercise in philosophy.
Viewed narrowly, the bill is designed to outlaw the creation of embryonic stem cell lines in Georgia. However, given the complexity and unpredictability of science, its impact is likely to be much broader. Steve Stice, a world-renowned stem-cell researcher at the University of Georgia, says that if the bill becomes law he may be forced to move his operation out of state, as may other biotech companies drawn to the state in recent years.
In another troubling provision, the bill states that an embryo created through in vitro fertilization “shall not be intentionally destroyed for any purpose and by any person” and “is not the property of any person or entity.”
Today, fertility clinics store thousands of unused frozen embryos, in many cases because the donors are uncertain what to do with them. Should SB 169 become law, those clinics would be forced to sustain those embryos in perpetuity, and the would-be parents would have no legal say over what happens to embryos they did not choose to implant.
Such provisions are likely to drive fertility clinics out of state as well.
To justify such consequences, legislators had better be very sure about their position. But such certainty is not shared by many, including the Catholic Church.
As religious scholar Anthony Stevens Arroyo wrote recently, Catholic officials do not pretend certain knowledge on when the soul joins body and human life begins. In fact, at various points in its long history, the Catholic Church has fixed the moment of “ensoulment” at conception, at the implantation of the embryo in the womb, at the moment the embryo develops a heart, at the moment it develops a brain, or at the moment of “quickening,” when it becomes noticeably active.
St. Thomas Aquinas, probably the most famous and influential theologian in church history, believed that the human soul did not join flesh until the body of the fetus had formed sufficiently to accept it, placing it well past the embryonic stage.
In effect, the church’s opposition to embryonic stem cell research comes down to better-safe-than-sorry. Even the chance that an embryo possesses a soul “would suffice to justify an absolutely clear prohibition of any intervention aimed at killing a human embryo,” as Pope John Paul II put it.
And, in a 1974 declaration on abortion, the church acknowledges that its statement “expressly leaves aside the question of the moment when the spiritual soul is infused. There is not a unanimous tradition on this point and authors are as yet in disagreement.” As it also notes, “it is not within the competence of science to decide between these views, because the existence of an immortal soul is not a question in its field.”
The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints likewise takes no definitive view of when the embryo or fetus acquires a soul, although some Mormons set it at the moment the embryo attaches itself to the womb. That explains why U.S. Sen. Orrin Hatch of Utah, ordinarily a strong social conservative, can also be a strong advocate of embryonic stem-cell research.
In Judaism, the embryo in its first 40 days is considered “as if it was water;” in Islam, a fetus isn’t generally considered human until four months into gestation. A more definitive position is offered by the Southern Baptist Convention, which states that “protectable human life begins at fertilization.”
Given that degree of uncertainty by people wiser and more thoughtful, I profess no certainty on the matter myself. But given the hope that embryonic stem cell research may offer to people who are very much alive and very much human, but also very ill, the Legislature shouldn’t claim such certainty either.
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314 comments Add your comment
DB, Gwinnettian
March 12th, 2009
7:07 am
“expressly leaves aside the question of the moment when the spiritual soul is infused. There is not a unanimous tradition on this point and authors are as yet in disagreement.”
Thanks for bringing this up. Whenever I mention in these discussions that even the Pope didn’t claim to know when ensoulment occurs, the usual response among pro-criminalization folk is “la la la I can’t hear you!”
DB, Gwinnettian
March 12th, 2009
7:07 am
Robot roll call!
Whiner (you’re on!)
Dave R (check me out!)
Corporal (I’m special!)
Commmmmmmmmmmmmmmie!
If you’re wondering how they think or breathe, or other science facts, just repeat to yourself, “it’s just Jay’s show, and I really should relax.”
For… Mystery (anti-)Science Theater Two Thousand (-and-nine)
(twwannnng)
Bud Wiser
March 12th, 2009
7:11 am
Abortion has always been a subject that brings out the most vile feelings, the most hypocrisy, the most arrogance I have ever seen.
It is really quite simple. Mankind has developed the power and the skills to terminate a human life before it is physically ready to emerge into the world, and has also used its intelligence to rationalize the reasons for taking those lives. Whether or not one believes in a Supreme Being becomes then irrelevant, because the answers to whether or not they will ‘burn in Hell for all eternity’ are not yet known, only conceptualized by faith.
On a more practical note, I have observed that Americans in particular have become much more lazy and irresponsible in their lifestyles, using abortion as a ‘tool’ for birth control. Maybe they will ultimately pay a very heavy price for those decisions, maybe not.
Maybe we have already paid a heavy price, but simply just don’t know it; does anyone ever wonder about the possibility that there may have already been aborted a future doctor or researcher than would have discovered a cure for cancer, or even the common cold, a future politician with the skills and grace to lead a nation to peace and prosperity for all, an artist, another Bach or Mozart; the possibilities are endless.
But they were all murdered before their birth for the convenience of the mother and/or father, a ‘correction’ for someone’s laziness and lack of personal responsibility.
On a higher note though, the future welfare voting blocs have been already considerably diminished below what their potential could have been.
I Report/ You Whine
March 12th, 2009
7:16 am
The liberals told us that Geithner was the only one who could cure what ails the US economy and we can all see how that worked out.
Now they tell us that embryonic stem cells are the only cure that deserves attention.
See what I’m getting at?
Any bright idea a liberal has results in millions upon millions of dead people, this will be no exception.
And it will result in absolutely nothing.
DB, Gwinnettian
March 12th, 2009
7:18 am
RW, if you’re around this morning… yesterday you asked me:
Do you have a link to where Nancy Pelosi said she convened a meeting to discuss various options, among them torture, then formed some contrary viewpoint? It sounds more to me like you’re referring to where she was one of the viewpoints and hers was pretty harsh.
What a great standard that is though. You just go to a meeting and make some bizarre suggestion then claim the administration is doing it just because they allowed you to suggest it.
I was making an admittedly tenuous connection between what seemed like a bit of CYA on the part of the new AG, and Pelosi’s defense of accusations from the right and from the left that she might have to bear some responsibility for sanctioning torture due to having attended security briefings where various methods were discussed (or, the concepts were discussed, anyway–it’s not like we have transcripts to pore through. yet.)
I can understand why that wasn’t exactly clear and I’m sorry I couldn’t stick around yesterday evening to ’splain it properly.
Oh, and the link above is to someone’s interpretation of Pelosi’s defense–here’s a link to the interview that I’d seen, that got me thinking about this some weeks ago in the first place:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26315908/vp/29397707#29397707
DB, Gwinnettian
March 12th, 2009
7:19 am
“And it will result in absolutely nothing.”
And McCain will win in 2008! right, Whiner?
Mrs. Godzilla
March 12th, 2009
7:21 am
I stand with Thomas Aquinas.
And frankly, think it’s nobody’s damn business what a woman does with her own body.
DB, Gwinnettian
March 12th, 2009
7:25 am
“it’s nobody’s damn business what a woman does with her own body.”
But Mrs. G, the 4th amendment doesn’t apply when yer preggers donchaknow. Your uterus becomes property of the state at the moment of conception. All that “secure in their persons” stuff goes out the window because a blastocyst is a person, and you’re just an incubator for that newly-minted citizen.
DB, Gwinnettian
March 12th, 2009
7:34 am
a ‘correction’ for someone’s laziness and lack of personal responsibility.
You take condescending crap like this, multiply it about a hundred million times, add something as disgusting as John Fricking McCain making little bunny-ear quote marks during a national televised debate when uttering the words “health of the mother,” and you have a recipe for a permanent Republican minority.
Thanks, guys! Don’t ever change!
robert shomaker
March 12th, 2009
7:40 am
nowhere in your article did you mention that the catholic church’s long held position: “life begins at conception and ends at natural death” please don’t give the impression that the church does not hold this. b the way mr. bookman, when do YOU believe life begins?
DB, Gwinnettian
March 12th, 2009
7:50 am
shomaker @ 7.40, I doubt there’s a person reading this who’s unaware of the RCC’s take on birth control and abortion.
Is Jay duty-bound to point out that water is wet and the sun rises in the East with each column as well?
IR/YW @ 7.37, to answer your question: George Soros. He bankrolls all of us. ALL OF US!
He sends me and others here these six-figure checks every month to make your life miserable. He’s mean-spirited and petty that way, and I tell him, “boss, lighten up, Whiner’s just a little southern-fried troll-thing,” but… well, the money comes in handy, knowhatiimsayin’? I can bankroll counter-demonstrators to
Nothing personal. Just business.
DB, Gwinnettian
March 12th, 2009
7:51 am
to, too, two.
you get the idea.
Later, gators.
Curious Observer
March 12th, 2009
7:52 am
So suppose Georgia does drive all embryonic stem cell research out of state and later scientists use embryonic stem cells to find a cure for some dread diseases. Who will be first in line to benefit from this research? Yep, the evangelical Christians who opposed embryonic stem cell research from the start.
G
March 12th, 2009
7:56 am
The Georgia Legislature Zoo and Porky Perdue reside in Neanderthal times, Jay. These are some of the most ignorant humans alive today. I would imagine there are people in third world countries who know much more than they do. This applies to the SBC as well. Though I have a feeling they would all hum a different tune if they or a family member could benefit from the stem cell research.
In my view, human life begins when that life is able to sustain itself outside the mother’s womb.
You Distort/ We Deride
March 12th, 2009
7:56 am
The GOP strikes again.
As in Guileless Obstructionist Primadonnas.
The nation is laughing at you once again, Georgia.
Joe Matarotz
March 12th, 2009
7:56 am
Jay, what’s going on here? Two days in a row with a rational, well written, relevant column!. Keep this up and people might start to take you as a serious, dare I say it?, journalist.
It’s not the government’s job to dictate morality. We make our own personal choices and then live with our conscience. Then, when ‘the Great Scorer asks not whether you won or lost, but how you played the game’ (Grantland Rice), we each answer for our own actions.
Peadawg
March 12th, 2009
7:57 am
Mrs. Godzilla
March 12th, 2009
7:21 am
“And frankly, think it’s nobody’s damn business what a woman does with her own body.”
I think when a woman selfishly takes away a baby’s right to**LIFE**, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness, it is other’s business, especially the fathers!!!
Jay
March 12th, 2009
7:57 am
The personal attacks got out of hand yesterday; tone it down and be respectful.
Peadawg
March 12th, 2009
7:59 am
Hey Jay, or anybody, how do we make words bold or in italics on this new blog? The old way had ** around the word/phrase… Thanks
Gimmeabreak
March 12th, 2009
7:59 am
I’m so tired of this “it’s nobody’s business what a woman does with her own body” crap. The law says you can’t sell it for ; you can’t sell an organ; you can’t inject it with ; you can’t kill it; you can’t even walk it across the street outside of a crosswalk but that’s ok with you people as long as you are able to kill a possible life in after-the-fact birth control for your promiscuous life.
If you were in a building scheduled to be demolished, wouldn’t you want someone to make sure nobody was in the building before they blew it up? Of course, but your willing to kill something inside of you that inarguably would become a life. Science can’t say yet when exactly it becomes a life but what the heck; lets kill it anyway because it’s convenient for you. You are perfectly willing to accept that you might be wrong. What if the person blowing up that building had the same attitude. “I don’t know for sure nobody is in there but let’s blow it up anyway. I’m in a rush to get home.”
Why on earth you wouldn’t struggle over this when we don’t know for sure when life begins is beyond me. Why wouldn’t you want to err on the side of caution? BUT. we sure wouldn’t want you to be inconvenienced would we…
I Report/ You Whine
March 12th, 2009
8:00 am
DeadBeat- Whatever are you talking about with the 7:37 reference? Are you delusional this morning?
You don’t really believe I could make one comment about the dozen personal attacks you have launched in the span of thirty minutes and that it would be allowed to stand, do you?
What do you think I am, a liberal, able to get away with such things, no problem?
Wyld Byll Hyltnyr
March 12th, 2009
8:00 am
Jay, you want to know, “When does human life begin, and who gets to determine it?”
That’s easy, at conception and G-d has.
Mrs. Godzilla 7:21 am
“And frankly, think it’s nobody’s damn business what a woman does with her own body.”
I’m ok with that; however, an embryo/fetus is, with no doubt, human life with the inherent right to live as such a woman should not have domain to end the embryo/fetus’ life any more than that woman should have the right to end the life of a random guy at the post.
If, “….it’s nobody’s damn business what a woman does with her own body”, does that mean that the state should not be able to make her wear a seatbelt?
Taxpayer
March 12th, 2009
8:01 am
These are the same politicians that could not figure out beforehand that their greedy cohorts place profit before life in all things peanutty or sugary…Now, we are supposed to believe that these politicians have suddenly acquired the knowledge and wisdom to propel them not simply above noted philosophers and theologians of all time but even above the word written in the Bible. No wonder these politicians have such swelled heads — it takes a lot of space to hold all that wealth of knowledge and wisdom. Then again, they do have to appease any potential voters willing to listen to their pandering. By the way, I see that even Steele has seen the light on this issue. Now, that’s one wise Republican. Do I hear two.
Mrs. Godzilla
March 12th, 2009
8:02 am
Peadawg
Thanks for your opinion.
When fathers can carry to term, I will support their right to do whatever they want to do with their own bodies as well.
You Distort/ We Deride
March 12th, 2009
8:05 am
Admit that capital punishment is the taking of a human life, a fully ensouled if not imperfect life; admit yhat you and your ilk play God each and every time an execution takes place; admit that every human life is sacred until you decide otherwise…and THEN we can discuss the merits of when life actually begins.
RW-(the original)
March 12th, 2009
8:09 am
Would that be the personal attacks on teenage kids Jay B, or do you condone those?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I don’t have the time this morning to go through the points in the article, assuming there are any, this morning, but unless you’re an anti science troglodyte life begins at conception. You may stray all over the map with various definitions of what you want to use to justify snuffing out that life, but you can’t deny the science.
Later!
Mrs. Godzilla
March 12th, 2009
8:11 am
Wyld Byll
I am glad there is no doubt in you on your own opinion, but that does not alter mine in the slightest.
We taxpayers pay the price for the clean up when an unrestrained body
gets smashed into macadam at 70 miles an hour.
Each woman struggles with and then pays the price for her choice.
Y’all please try and be nice to each other….this kind of discussion usually gets ugly fast and it does neither side any good.
Taxpayer
March 12th, 2009
8:16 am
These are the same people that would declare pi = 3, or that would state that the patent office can be closed because everything has been invented. These uneducated cretins hiss at science unless it makes them money or wins them votes. Then again, they are in need of something to maintain a grip on their dwindling faithful — no matter the cost. Too bad they don’t place the same value on collateral damage, even if a pregnant woman is amongst those being shocked and awed.
Hip Hopcracy
March 12th, 2009
8:17 am
Gimmeabreak
A 14 year old Adolph Hitler is in the building.
Demolish it, or pull the poor guy out first?
Peadawg
March 12th, 2009
8:20 am
“Each woman struggles with and then pays the price for her choice.”
I would say this: Each woman struggles with and should take responsibility for her choice. Even if the woman doesn’t want the baby, they could put it up for adoption where a loving family could raise it. I just don’t agree with killing it and not even giving it a chance at a full and healthy life.
Redneck Convert
March 12th, 2009
8:24 am
Well, I’m all for this bill. The reason is because it’s godly. They can’t go destroying baby stem cells and act like they ain’t killing anybody. Sure, the cells are in a little test tube, but they could get up and start crying any time. So these scientists need to be made to keep these cells forever. Just don’t raise my taxes to help them do it. There’s a limit to what us GA rednecks will do to perteck life.
The other good thing about the bill is it will drive these labs that help women have babys out of state. Women need to get babys the Natural way, by doing You Know What. If they are too lazy to do that they will keep right on having three or four or eight babys at a time and driving our taxes up to help them get raised. And even if they ain’t too lazy if women can’t get babys the Natural way it means God don’t want them to have babys and going to a lab to get one is going against God’s Will.
Now I don’t hold with these wimps that claim the Death Penalty don’t perteck life. We need to be taking care of cells and little babys in waiting. After they are born they ain’t our problem and we don’t need to perteck them no more. Then we need to perteck US instead. If they get out of line when they get older we’ll put the needle to them. And don’t go raising my taxes to help support them till they get old enough for us to kill them.
That’s my opinion and it’s very true. Have a good day everybody.
ByteMe
March 12th, 2009
8:25 am
Peadawg @ 7:59, see this: http://support.wordpress.com/code/ and emoticons are here: http://support.wordpress.com/smilies/
Jay
March 12th, 2009
8:25 am
RW, I saw no personal attacks on teenage kids. Sarah Palin brought her pregnant child and her daughter’s boyfriend onto the national stage. Bristol Palin did an extensive interview with Fox in which her mother appeared. They are in the public eye at their own choosing.
Your argument is with the governor of Alaska, not with me.
Peadawg
March 12th, 2009
8:30 am
thanks ByteMe
this is a test. I didn’t know we could put html directly into a blog.
Peadawg
March 12th, 2009
8:31 am
well, test was supposed to be bold….
ByteMe
March 12th, 2009
8:32 am
I found the b tag doesn’t work, but strong does as does i tag.
Copyleft
March 12th, 2009
8:35 am
“Life” may begin at conception, but what does that have to do with anything? We’re talking about rights, and rights are attached to PERSONS, not “life.”
A fingernail clipping may contain live cells, that doesn’t mean they have any special rights.
RW-(the original)
March 12th, 2009
8:36 am
Jay B,
Thanks for finally admitting what I’ve been telling you since you first began inviting attacks on her family in early September. I trust you’ll be as forgiving on any future attacks on the props, Sasha and Malia, that Obama has brought into the public eye with him including having them do national interviews both in print and on television. They won’t come from me because I’m above that, but I also think you would do the right thing in that selective case and put an end to it rapidly should it begin.
The fact that you condone and encourage attacks on these kids means my argument is with you.
Peadawg
March 12th, 2009
8:36 am
test again..sorry everyone
Hip Hopcracy
March 12th, 2009
8:44 am
Strange, I haven’t heard any interviews with Sasha and Malia wherein they relate their political views. Please provide a link.
Taxpayer
March 12th, 2009
8:45 am
Jay,
For the record, I don’t think that you have EVER condoned or encouraged attacks on kids — anyone’s kids. Of course, that’s just me and I clearly cannot speak for everyone.
Davo
March 12th, 2009
8:45 am
“Given that degree of uncertainty by people wiser and more thoughtful, I profess no certainty on the matter myself.”
And yet there are people in this forum that are quite certain on this matter, how does our ‘wiser and more thoughtful’ govt balance this?
It doesn’t…or it least it shouldn’t try. Leave the citizen and their doctors to decide these things among themselves.
lovelyliz
March 12th, 2009
8:46 am
From what I can gather, the GOP, well at least the neocons, believe life begins at conception and ends at birth.
ByteMe
March 12th, 2009
8:48 am
Davo: White Southern Baptist males have an unusually high degree of certainty on this issue for some reason.
Peadawg
March 12th, 2009
8:48 am
“From what I can gather, the GOP, well at least the neocons, believe life begins at conception and ends at birth.”
I think you mean life begins at conception and ends at death. What you said didn’t make any since.
Night Train
March 12th, 2009
8:49 am
Personally, I think it’s between the woman, her Creator, the father and her doctor, in that order. For you, me or any politician to make that decision for the ‘would be mother’ is wrong.
I personally do not agree with terminating a fetus, but as I am a male, I will never have the final say as I consider myself third on the list of having input into the decision and then, only when I’m the father.
Different religions cannot agree on when life begins. Is it conception, soul is infused or can survive outside the womb? Your religion claims it is okay to terminate, my religion claims it is not. Who’s religion is correct? Who’s religion is the true religion? My faith tells me mine is the one, your faith tells you yours is the one. One must go with what one believes for you are the person that must live with yourself and your decisions.
My God, gave man the ability to chose between right and wrong. He allows me to make my own decisions and I understand that I must live with those decisions, good or bad.
ByteMe
March 12th, 2009
8:51 am
Oh, and evangelicals also have a high degree of certainty on this issue for some reason.
So do Republican politicians, although their having a high degree of certainty on anything related to their political existence seems amusing to me.
Taxpayer
March 12th, 2009
8:51 am
lovelyliz at 8:46. I believe that your statement needs a slight modification. It would be more correct to say:
…right to life begins at conception and ends at birth.
TnGelding
March 12th, 2009
8:56 am
Mrs. Godzilla
March 12th, 2009
8:11 am
At least he didn’t refer to that human life as a baby.
TnGelding
March 12th, 2009
8:57 am
Jay
March 12th, 2009
8:25 am
Nor with me!
Thanks, Jay, for backing us up.