The biology of warfare
I’m reading “The Conservation of Enemies,” a 1982 book on foreign policy by Frederick Hartmann, at the time an instructor at the U.S. Naval War College and a fellow at the Hoover Institution. In one of his chapter openings, Hartmann cites this quote from Nobel Prize-winning biologist Konrad Lorenz, in which Lorenz explaining the importance of territoriality across a broad spectrum of species:
“In every individual the readiness to fight is greatest in the most familiar place, that is, in the middle of its territory…. In nearing the center of the territory the aggressive urge [i.e., willingness to fight] increases in geometrical ratio to the decrease in distance from this center. This increase … is so great that it compensates for all differences ever to be found in adult, sexually mature animals of a species. If we know the territorial centers of two conflicting animals, such as two garden redstarts or two aquarium sticklebacks, all other things being equal, we can predict, from the place of encounter, which one will win: the one that is nearer home.”
That’s a pretty sobering observation given what we’re attempting in Afghanistan and elsewhere.
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326 comments Add your comment
I Report/ You Whine
March 5th, 2009
12:11 pm
So if the Afghanis are fighting a terrorist threat then they should be really motivated, right?
Oh yeah, you think we attacked the Afghan people, I forgot.
GodHatesTrash, Superstar
March 5th, 2009
12:27 pm
The Pashtuns, the people that make up the Taliban, have been in Afghanistan 3000-4000 years. Many of their traditions are very similar to Old Temple Judaism, leading some ethnographers to surmise that they are one of the Lost Tribes of Israel.
They’ve been successfully fighting back foreign invaders since Alexander and Xerxes. And let’s face it, Dumbya ain’t no Xerxes.
Jerksees, maybe.
Sam
March 5th, 2009
12:27 pm
Your daily update of the OBAMA economic meltdown.
Dow down 228 today, 20% since inauguration day.
This is the end of your public service announcement
Hillbilly Deluxe
March 5th, 2009
12:32 pm
The basic premise is true and you need to factor in terrain as well when dealing with human conflicts.
TnGelding
March 5th, 2009
12:40 pm
Bring them home from Afghanistan once UBL is killed or captured. We ain’t got no quarrel with no Taliban. As for Iraq, O! is just completing what Bush had started. Totally unacceptable. We can’t afford the cost in life or treasure.
GA Values
March 5th, 2009
12:41 pm
Sam, Obama has been in office exactly six weeks. Do you think he is responsible for the financial crisis?
Then I guess you hold Bush responsible for the terrorist attack that occured eight months into his watch, right?
RW-(the original)
March 5th, 2009
12:46 pm
That may well be a sobering observation but I think it’s mostly a load of hooey. There is certainly a terrain advantage to the home field and were all other things equal this might be enough, but all other things aren’t equal even when it comes to the motivations of a military unit that becomes it’s own family on the battlefield and no longer faces the distractions of fighting and being at home.
gttim
March 5th, 2009
12:54 pm
This is going to be like Vietnam or Iraq. They live there. They are not going away. Meanwhile, we have to ship soldiers over, equip them, feed them, house them, take care of them. We can only send over a small fraction of our people. All theirs live there! An occupying force always loses eventually. We may spend trillions, we can surge and whatever, but we will have to leave one day, and we lose. Unless we want to start shipping millions of people over there to settle and outbreed the society currently there, we lose.
Chad Harris
March 5th, 2009
12:58 pm
What is the US purporting to accomplish in Afghanistan by which means?
1979 Soviets invade Afghanistan. Soviet Butts kicked using 170,000 troops.
2001 US invades Afghanistan. Looses “war” to Taliban who completely control it. US learning nothing from history purports to take over Afghanistan with 17,000 troops 10% of what the Russians used when the Russians had their butts kicked.
NATO presence as usual is a joke.
US throwing away 11 billion a month in Pakstain per Bush plan and Pakistan government near bankrupt makes major deal to incorporate support of Taliban and safe haven for aq as part of major government policy. Stupid US continues to poour same amount of money into Pakistan.
US bailing out AIG and US throwing money at Pakistan same thing. Billions being thrown way down severalblack holes, Iraq, Afghanistan, Pakistan.
Mrs. Godzilla
March 5th, 2009
1:00 pm
A little light reading.
Testimony of Peter Bergen Schwartz senior fellow at the New America Foundation; research fellow at New York University’s Center on Law and Security; CNN’s national security analyst; adjunct professor at the School of Advanced International Studies at Johns Hopkins University.
Before the United States House of Representatives
Committee on Oversight and Government Reform Subcommittee on National Security and Foreign Affairs On
“Afghanistan and Pakistan: Understanding a Complex Threat Environment”
March 4, 2009
http://www.peterbergen.com/bergen/articles/details.aspx?id=376
AmVet
March 5th, 2009
1:02 pm
From last month:
WASHINGTON (AFP) — A nationwide survey of Afghans out Monday shows plummeting support for US and NATO/ISAF forces in Afghanistan, and a rise in the number who believe attacks on those troops are acceptable.
The poll of 1,500 people in Afghanistan’s 34 provinces, conducted by three Western broadcast networks — ABC News, the BBC and Germany’s ARD — also shows lower support for President Hamid Karzai and the Afghan central government.
Forty percent of Afghans surveyed say their country is heading in the right direction, down 77 percent from 2005, according to the poll.
Afghan opinion of the United States has nosedived: 47 percent had a favorable opinion, down from 83 percent in 2005. US favorability plunged 18 percent in 2008 alone, according to the survey.
“For the first time slightly more Afghans now see the United States unfavorably than favorably,” ABC News said.
The biggest complaint: civilian deaths resulting from US and NATO air strikes, which 77 percent say is unacceptable because the risk to civilians outweighs the strikes’ value in fighting insurgents.
Forty-one percent blame Western forces for poor targeting, while 28 percent blame the insurgents for hiding among civilians.
More worrisome, 25 percent say that attacks on US troops or soldiers with the ISAF — the NATO-led multinational force in Afghanistan — can be justified, up from 13 percent in 2006.
Quagmire, Part Deux…
PJ
March 5th, 2009
1:22 pm
To: GA Values @ 12:41 – Touch down!
To: All – Obama Said he would go after Bin Laden and he has. I think the greatest day in America’s history will be when he his either killed or captured. Until then there will be no justice served for what happened on 9/11. That being said, this is the reason the war in Iraq was such a waste of time, blood (of booth countries), money and our international standing. Some of our officials seem to like to spend money and manpower on the wrong things (40 million dollars all to find out Clinton had sex with an intern) when the real problems of this country go by the wayside. The Hundred of Millions spent in Iraq and the waste of life that only brought down a dictator that should have been left to his own people could have possibably caught ten Bin Laden’s.
CommunistAJC
March 5th, 2009
1:24 pm
Bookman,
will you ever criticize, oh I don’t know, the fact that Obama Hussein is destroying capitalism?
BDAtlanta
March 5th, 2009
1:43 pm
The moral of this story:
If you break into another person’s home, expect a baseball bat upside the head.
BDAtlanta
March 5th, 2009
1:47 pm
Commie, capitalism is broken, Obama is trying to resucitate it.
We’ve all criticized the perpetrators – Phil Gramm and his ilk…mostly Republicans.
But if you think this debacle happened overnight you might want to blame it on Obama or maybe the Democrats who have controlled Congress for 2 of the last 14 years.
RealityKing
March 5th, 2009
1:52 pm
Lorenz’s theory is exactly why the America military’s ability to protect and empower the good people of the world is the only way to bring about real peace.
RealityKing
March 5th, 2009
1:54 pm
The key to Afghanistan is Pakistan’s tribal regions. Send in the Clintons!
Ha Ha!!
Redneck Convert
March 5th, 2009
1:56 pm
Well, I reckon this guy’s about right. If some guy comes breaking into my trailer I’ll let him have it with both machine guns and the rocket launcher. But if he comes after me at Ryans or Billy Bob’s I might just wing him a little with my Smith & Wesson. See, you got to protect your home base but outside of that you don’t have to be so fierce.
I don’t know what this all has to do with fighting the towel-heads. See, our troops don’t need no carry law to take their machine gun and rocket launcher anyplace they go in war. I reckon there’s enough Terrists to overrun us at some point but the troops can sure take a bunch of them out before they do. I figure it will take about a million Terrists in their bathrobes and sandals to beat us.
Have a good day everybody.
Joey
March 5th, 2009
1:59 pm
Sounds reasonable if it is two stiklebacks. What if it is one stikleback and one 10-pound Northern Pike?
Bosch
March 5th, 2009
2:05 pm
I think our soldiers should be pulled out of the sand ghettos – we need to learn from our mistakes in the past.
Commie,
Obama isn’t destroying capitalism – he’s trying to make it exist again.
RealityKing
March 5th, 2009
2:13 pm
DOW -255.04 -3.71%
6,620.80
Apparently Obamanomics doesn’t start until after we’ve hit bottom..
@@
March 5th, 2009
2:13 pm
I’ll leave this one to your liberal friends, jay.
There was a reason George Bush didn’t leave our troops to linger in Afghanistan, just ask Russia, who, btw, we wouldn’t have to acquiesce to were Obama not so hell-bent on proving his machismo to his “any war but the Iraq war” activists. But it served him well during his campaign, so I guess it’s one of the commitments he’s determined not to break.
Since you’re interested in primal instincts, were you aware that primates actually conspire to and succeed in murdering those within their own tribe. It has absolutely nothing to do with territory. We haven’t really evolved all that much here at home either, now have we?
Is that what a liberal calls “a win”?
RealityKing
March 5th, 2009
2:15 pm
..got your government job yet?
Mrs. Godzilla
March 5th, 2009
2:22 pm
DOW -255.04 -3.71%
6,620.80
George Bush, Ronald Reagan and trickle down economics…..
The gift that keeps on taking.
RW-(the original)
March 5th, 2009
2:30 pm
I’m pretty sure it wasn’t Reagan or Bush that told investors two days ago to jump back in the market because the profits to earnings ratios were good. When the President that’s “fixing” the economy shows himself to be that clueless it probably has investors selling off everything they can.
I Report/ You Whine
March 5th, 2009
2:32 pm
Dow 6,614.51 -261.33 -3.80%
OneTerm said now is a good time to buy and the capitalists immediately took every penny the ObamaSuckers put in.
Thanks Oblahmi!
The Eighth
March 5th, 2009
2:36 pm
DOW -255.04 -3.71%
6,620.80
George Bush, Ronald Reagan and trickle down economics…..
The gift that keeps on taking.
Perhaps the most intellectually dishonest post ever on this blog. Unreal. And no, I’m not going to post links as proof or backup It’s a simple fact that Obama’s policies have caused great cause for concern in the market and cause the Great Selloff of 2009.
The Age of Obama: Punish Prosperity. Demonize Achievement.
tcoach
March 5th, 2009
2:37 pm
mrs. G
Reagan is to blame for this current economic situation? Really?
So do you also give credit to Reagan for all of the upswings in the economic cycle?
Exactly how far in the way back machine can one travel looking to blame anyone, someone from the other political side to blame.
Reagan for this mess? Seriously?
I’m sorry I have to assume you are joking.
I Report/ You Whine
March 5th, 2009
2:44 pm
I knew we’d finally give credit where credit is due-
President OneTerm doesn’t go anywhere without his TelePrompter.
The textbook-sized panes of glass holding the president’s prepared remarks follow him wherever he speaks.
Resting on top of a tall, narrow pole, they flank his podium during speeches in the White House’s stately parlors. They stood next to him on the floor of a manufacturing plant in Indiana as he pitched his economic stimulus plan. They traveled to the Department of Transportation this week and were in the Capitol Rotunda last month when he paid tribute to Abraham Lincoln in six-minute prepared remarks.-Politico
Our new national hero, the Teleprompter.
GodHatesTrash, Superstar
March 5th, 2009
2:46 pm
While working with an international market information-gathering and consulting firm headquartered in northern Virginia, I participated in several long-term projects involving the neutralizing of competitive business and government interests well outside the boundaries of these United States.
Our favorite scenario was to deal with the “competition” on neutral turf, catching them off-guard away from familiar contacts and surroundings. Sometimes, however, circumstances and exigencies required our dealing with individuals closer to their homes and familiar neighborhoods.
Those situations required patience, determination, and obfuscation. We went in quickly, and got out even quicker. Our tickets home were ready for us before we even held our “meetings”.
Our department ran very efficient operations. We took care to make sure our actions reflected positively (or better yet, neutrally) on our company and our country by eliminating all possiblities for collateral damage, and conducting our operations with the utmost discretion and professionalism.
We did not stir up hornets’ nests.
Mrs. Godzilla
March 5th, 2009
2:49 pm
‘Course knowing that another 667,000 folks were laid off in February doesn’t affect invstors at all….or both pieces of bad GM news….
We are simply not buying the Republican explanations any more.
Y’all screwed the pooch…..and America just isn’t that into you anymore.
Hugs for trying to keep your little team together!
Mrs. Godzilla
March 5th, 2009
2:50 pm
oh tcoach…..hugs for trying too.
Bosch
March 5th, 2009
2:50 pm
The Eighth,
Since you brought up intellectual dishonesty, I have a question:
If John McCain had won the election, I think it’s pretty safe to say that we’d still had a stimulus package, and pretty much, not entirely, but certainly something similar in policies of what we’ve seen.
So, are you suggesting that the stock market’s plummet, is doing so entirely because of Obama?
CommunistAJC
March 5th, 2009
2:53 pm
Bosch,
Obama is trying to fix it? That’s strange, his treasury secretary doesn’t know what he’s doing. CNBC said that China loves capitalism more than he does. Funny, a communist country cherishes capitalism more than he does. IF Obama is trying to fix it then why does every major economist have a grim outlook on Obama?
"The Corporal"
March 5th, 2009
2:53 pm
**Speaking of Afghanistan ……….. **
The Soldier (War Sonnets No. 5)
**If I should die, think only this of me:
That there’s some corner of a foreign field
That is for ever England.** There shall be
In that rich earth a richer dust concealed;
A dust whom England bore, shaped, made aware,
Gave, once her flowers to love, her ways to roam,
A body of England’s, breathing English air,
Washed by the rivers, blessed by the suns of home.
And think, this heart, all evil shed away,
A pulse in the eternal mind, no less
Gives somewhere back the thoughts by England given;
Her sights and sounds; dreams happy as her day;
And laughter, learnt of friends; and gentleness,
In hearts a peace, under an English heaven.
Rupert Brooke (1887-1915)
P.S. I’M BACK …………
Brad Steal
March 5th, 2009
2:56 pm
What makes this observation all the more frightening is that Talibanis are know to be much more ferocious than garden redstarts and aquarium sticklebacks – and nearly as evolved.
You can thank excessive credit and loose regulation for the economic volatility. Those policies were most prominent in Republican platforms and Greenspan’s Fed.
I hope the current leaders can get the car out of the ditch.
Whine (aka Commie), don’t forget to tell everyone how Obama is to blame for the recnt cold spell too, dunce.
fed up
March 5th, 2009
2:56 pm
Ms. G has apparently been tipping the bottle (again).
Mrs. Godzilla
March 5th, 2009
2:57 pm
John, Cool to have you back!
Bosch….I would posit that McCain would have attempted it but they’d still be trying to get the us to swallow an all tax cut stimulus.
Remember, McCain had no clue about the economy up to and including
the moment he suspended his campaign. Them strong fundamentals and all….
Bosch
March 5th, 2009
2:59 pm
Commie,
Yes, he’s trying to fix it, because it is failing in our country. He has given no indication of a secret plot to overthrow the private sector. Sure you can mimic the dittoheads that “he’s GONNA do this, and he MIGHT do that.”
If anything, he is trying desperately to put economic power back in the hands of where it belongs, in the private sector. There has been talk of nationalizing the banks, but that hasn’t happened yet, and if it does, it is temporary.
ByteMe
March 5th, 2009
2:59 pm
Bosch, actually he and several others are. But if they go back to the same honeymoon period for our previous president, you’ll find that the stock market tanked in the same period by even more. But they aren’t intellectually honest enough to admit it even to themselves.
http://www.ritholtz.com/blog/2009/03/2000-crash-bush-09-obama/
For the rest of us with brains, spend 8 minutes with Jon Stewart taking on CNBC:
http://www.ritholtz.com/blog/2009/03/daily-show-vs-cnbc/
The Eighth
March 5th, 2009
3:00 pm
Bosch,
Absolutley not. President Obama was dealt just about the worst hand possible. I would say that I think the “stimulus” package would look much different if McCain was in office but who really knows.
tcoach
March 5th, 2009
3:02 pm
Mrs. G
Show off your maturity (not your age we all know you are as old as McCain, and as stretched as Nancy) and try to respond to any question or comment with actual intellect.
We all know you are somewhat down. With all of the blathering to us all about how Obama would be the greatest thing ever and how he WOULD fix things. You are acting as most senior citizens do though.
You are reverting back to childhood. Rather than answer or respond with conviction and ideas you make up another ll new defense device for yourself.
It used to be poor attempts at humor now it is lame hugs.
We all remember the violent mean spirited bigoted monster of menopause you were and still are. You were the most vile and called for Bush and the rest of America to fail more times than the hand can count.
Now that you r boy is in office all are horrible who question and hope for failure of Obama. That is every-one’s right as an American to believe and wish as we may.
So continue your comments and then acting (maybe forgetting remember your age)as if you are better than any of us.
Now I know that the 4 friends you have in life are on here but maybe in the 2-3 years you have left you could manage to make new friends and actually enjoy 1 of the untold years you have amassed.
Well its 3 o’clock and that means diner and pudding for you soon, so I’ll sit back wait for the pudding to go down, give a minute for google then get another wrinkly mothball smelling hug.
Have fun at diner and make sure you get that nap.
"The Corporal"
March 5th, 2009
3:05 pm
Mrs. G.
I thought long and hard about not “coming back” ………. but I will give it one more go in an attempt to instill some civility and rational debate …………. I guess I’m delusional ………
)
PJ
March 5th, 2009
3:05 pm
The Stock Market, as we all know now, when it was in the 13,000’s was a propped up number to begin with because it was constructed on the house of cards that bad mortgages built. Nothing artificial lasts forever and this day was bound to happen. If John McCain had won all you conservatives would be calling this what it is, an adjustment correction. Don’t worry the next Wall Street/Madoff scam is somewhere around the corner for those who are greedy enough or stupid enough (or both) to fall for it again (in other words: suckers). Anyone foolish enough to put all their eggs in one basket deserves to loose their money. You don’t get a lot of something for next to nothing as any con artist can tell you. There’s a fool born every minute. Hello fools, goodbye money. You’ve been bamboozled!
RealityKing
March 5th, 2009
3:05 pm
February job loss forecasts are the worst monthly drop since 1949. Bringing the total job losses over the last six months to 3.1 million, the largest six-month job loss since the end of World War II. Even adjusting for the large growth in the nation’s job base in recent decades, this would be the biggest six-month job loss since 1975.
Change you can believe in..
tcoach
March 5th, 2009
3:06 pm
sorry for incorrect spelling I know that is another way to avoid answering by the great G
CommunistAJC
March 5th, 2009
3:08 pm
Bosch,
his policies and actions show the opposite of what you say. He gives a great speech but his actions are horrific. I trust the market over government any day. We’ll have to agree to disagree on this one, comrade.
Mrs. Godzilla
March 5th, 2009
3:09 pm
t coach
I said “hugs for trying” and you get let go with some pretty mean and nasty stuff.
Here’s some extra hugs…..and a pat on the head too.
Taxpayer
March 5th, 2009
3:09 pm
Mrs. G, As usual, your assessments are correct and, as usual, the right wingers come on and attack with their claims of vast knowledge that they must not share with others for fear of showing others what vast knowledge they truly possess.
Bosch
March 5th, 2009
3:10 pm
Eighth,
The stimulus package wouldn’t have looked any different and you know it – because the same players would have been involved – except Obama, of course. Don’t kid yourself.