Atlanta Hawks: Korver second on Hawks’ best in plus-minus rating
Vivlamore reporting.
Kyle Korver knows he’s never going to be considered a good defender by followers of the NBA.
The Hawks guard can live with that — even as one basketball statistic and a team-defense system suggest he’s better than given credit.
An analysis of the NBA’s plus-minus rating shows that Korver is second on the Hawks with at a plus-88. That means the team has scored 88 more points than it allowed with him on the court. Only Jeff Teague (plus-110) has better numbers in the statistical category through the team’s 34 games. Teague’s plus/minus rating ranks him 49th among all NBA players.
“I’ve always followed that stat,” Korver said. “My second year, (then 76ers coach) Jim O’Brien was my coach and he was real big into plus-minus. He got me onto it.
“Sometimes, it’s a little deceiving. It’s hard to use it on a game-by-game basis because it shows stuff but there are always (other circumstances). I think over the course of season, or over the course of certain stretches, I think those are telling signs. It’s good. You want to be helping the team. As a players when you are out there you want things to be going well.”
Korver is part of a Hawks’ five-man combination, along with Al Horford, DeShawn Stevenson, Josh Smith and Teague, that ranks 11th in the NBA with a plus-49. The Hawks also have the 15th ranked five-man combination with Lou Williams, Korver, Teague, Smith and Horford at a plus-44 rating.
Korver suggested that Smith is the only Hawks with the reputation as a good defender league-wide. Korver has been in this place before. He also points to the Bulls teams he was on that ranked No. 1 in the NBA in defense last season (88.2 points per game) and No. 2 in 2010-11 (91.3) with only Luol Deng and Joakim Noah known for their defensive ability.
“I’ve been very fortunate to play under really good coaches who taught really good team defense,” Korver said. “So, I understand that it’s never a great matchup for me one-on-one. I’m never going to pick up a guy full court and turn him three times before half court and pick his pocket, things like that. I feel like I know how to play good team defense. I’ve been coached very well. I’ve tried to be in the right spot and work the system.”
Despite their four-game losing streak, the Hawks as a team are scoring an average of 1.12 more points a game than the opposition this season. They are 14th in the NBA, the final team with a plus margin. The Thunder lead the NBA with as a team with a plus-9.06 per game average.
“I said at the start of training camp our mission, or our goal, is to become solid as a team,” Hawks coach Larry Drew said. “We will work as hard as we can as individuals but at the end of the day it’s going to depend on how we defend as a team. I think Kyle doesn’t get the credit he deserves as an individual defender but as a staff, when we sit down and watch film of our games, we see that this guy is in the right spots. He understands rotations. He understands spacing. He’s not afraid to make contact with a big guy rolling to the basket. He gets in there and gets his hands on a lot of balls when it comes to rebounding. He may not come up with them but he gets his hands on it which enables us to come up with it. I do think he’s an underrated defensive player.”
- Chris Vivlamore
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118 comments Add your comment
W.R.Terrell
January 11th, 2013
5:27 am
I can’t disagree with that, Kyle is always on his man and he’s generally not the one standing there watching as the man he guards cruises in for a layup. I’m not saying he does not get beat off the dribble at times, i’m saying at least he’s in position to offer some resistance.
Atlanta Hawks: Korver second on Hawks’ best in plus-minus rating - Atlanta SportsToday
January 11th, 2013
5:44 am
[...] better than given credit. An analysis of the NBA’s plus-minus rating shows that Korver is Source: Atlanta Hawks – AJC Blog Share this: Cancel [...]
High-sider
January 11th, 2013
5:49 am
2nd?
High-sider
January 11th, 2013
6:27 am
“I think Kyle doesn’t get the credit he deserves as an individual defender but as a staff, when we sit down and watch film of our games, we see that this guy is in the right spots. He understands rotations. He understands spacing. He’s not afraid to make contact with a big guy rolling to the basket. He gets in there and gets his hands on a lot of balls when it comes to rebounding. He may not come up with them but he gets his hands on it which enables us to come up with it. I do think he’s an underrated defensive player.””
Fundamentals?! Fundamentals?! We talkin’ ’bout Kyle Korver’s defensive fundamentals?! (in Allen Iverson’s voice)
Josh Smith made 2nd Team All-Defense for the 2009 – 2010 regular season. “Smoove” had a defensive rating of 101.4 (10th overall in the NBA) and 95.9 (5th overall in the NBA) for the regular seasons of 2009 – 2010 and 2011 – 2012, respectively, and we’re talkin’ about Kyle Korver’s defensive fundamentals (e.g., positioning, stance, rotations, spacing, deflections, physical contact, etc.)?! We givin’ “props” to a MFer for fundamentals?! I thought this was the NBA?! C’mon man, damn?! (in Allen Iverson’s voice, again)
Once he reads this article, Grandad will be on Cloud 9, 10, 11, 12…..100….200….300…..5,000….10,000….100,000….1,000,000……1,000,000,000……googol………..googolplex………………..infinity. (s+smh)
s+smh = shaking and scratching my head
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/s/smithjo03.html
RHCP
January 11th, 2013
6:27 am
Nice.
High-sider
January 11th, 2013
6:42 am
Where was Korver’s defensive fundamentals on (in) the play (sequence) provided in the link below?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hGnlW5bkSow (@1:22 – 1:28)
Buddy Grizzard
January 11th, 2013
6:55 am
Good stuff, C-Viv. I do, however, have to point out the validity of Najeh’s argument that much of Korver’s success in +/- rating has to do with the high number of minutes he plays with Josh and Horford. Those two in tandem have been the biggest difference-makers in leading the Hawks’ surprising defense. I know I know… escort service and all that. Horford gets exposed against a player like Pekovic but you underrate what he does against players his size and smaller.
So, even though I’m labeled Hinrich and Korver’s biggest fans, I acknowledge that Najeh is correct. Korver’s +/- numbers are absolutely padded by playing a lot of minutes with Josh and Al.
HOWEVER:
Korver is still a good defender. The problem is that Larry Drew and Danny Ferry have set him up to fail by asking him to guard Paul Pierce and other small forwards. Imagine how spectacular Korver’s defensive on/off numbers would look if he never had to guard small forwards.
Think how much better the Hawks’ defense would look if Horford hadn’t had all the aggressiveness beaten out of him early in his career by the two foul rule. Imagine how much better the Hawks’ defense would look if Josh made any effort to use proper rebounding technique and box out. As surprising as the Hawks’ defense has been, to me it’s still disappointing because it could be so much better with proper roster construction by Ferry and proper utilization of the available talent by Drew.
Imagine how much better the defense would look if Drew increased Zaza, Teague and Ivan’s minutes by 5 per game. Imagine how much better the defense would look if Drew sat Mike Scott and John Jenkins at the end of the bench until summer league.
Buddy Grizzard
January 11th, 2013
7:05 am
Also, I can’t remember if it was Grandad or someone else who posited that 5-man combinations are more valid than individual ratings when employing +/-, but I concur. As Najeh points out, Korver’s individual +/- total is absolutely skewed by the fact that he plays so many minutes with Hawks’ best defenders. I can’t pull up the 5-man combos on NBA.com but last I checked, 8 out of the Hawks’ top 9 5-man combos included at least two of zaza, al and josh. Zaza was part of at least 5 of the top 10 5-man combos. But LD keeps jerking his minutes around. Giving Zaza 5 more minutes per game on average would obviously make the Hawks’ defensive rating even better.
terrell
January 11th, 2013
7:08 am
Um. And?
James Nales
January 11th, 2013
7:44 am
Anyone excited about Marvin Williams coming to town? Just glad he is not in a Hawks uniform. Maybe he can take some of these present Hawks with him as he leaves town
doc
January 11th, 2013
8:12 am
buddy you need to go to 82 games for the info you may be looking for:
http://www.82games.com/1213/1213ATL.HTM
hot.trod.87
January 11th, 2013
8:13 am
James, shut up and show some decency. He was an exemplary player off the court who was picked by an organization that should’ve made a better decision. Its time to move on and focus on the further, BUT first thanking Marvin for his services
doc
January 11th, 2013
8:17 am
that site for individuals, has smith best, then korver, horford and teague 4th.
that site seems to fit with what i “see”.
doc
January 11th, 2013
8:19 am
and be thankful he is someone else’s player. agree with you though hot, sweet guy he is but growth in nba basketball stunted at age 21/22 when he maxed out.
vava74
January 11th, 2013
8:26 am
Buddy,
Agreed to most BUT you have been chastising JJ2 unfairly precisely because you have NOT been using the same 5-men ± criteria to evaluate him and instead focused solely on his individual ± stat.
For the same reason why KK’s ± stat is positively influenced by the 4 guys with whom he has been playing the most minutes with, JJ2’s ± stats have been negatively influenced by the substantially lower quality or worse combination of 4 guys who shared the court with him.
IE. if you played JJ2 in line up of Teague, JJ2, Josh, Al and Zaza, the kid would not look bad and the team production would be respectable, if not good. I am sure of it.
JJ2 has more offensive resources that KK and is definitively looking as a guy who is trying his best to improve defensively.
I don’t think he will ever be better than average as a defender but I definitively see him be slightly better than KK since he possesses better athleticism.
Just the other day he held position and stuffed Barea (granted that we are talking about a diminutive opponent), showing both the willingness to move his feet laterally and to keep his hands up on optimal defensive position.
Your pet-hatreds and pet-loves sometimes simply out-weight your ability to analyse at the game.
vava74
January 11th, 2013
8:28 am
doc,
http://www.nba.com/statistics/plusminus/plusminus_sort.jsp?pcomb=1&season=22012&split=9&team=Hawks
This is up to date.
vava74
January 11th, 2013
8:30 am
Buddy,
Because if you do not use that criteria, you can’t complain with LD for not using Ivan…
vava74
January 11th, 2013
8:44 am
Off topic. An interesting read IMO:
http://www.sbnation.com/longform/2013/1/10/3857198/barry-bonds-mlb-hall-of-fame-voting-steroids
doc
January 11th, 2013
8:45 am
i am more concerned with player combos. i dont see that or know how to create it on that site vava.
Section 303
January 11th, 2013
8:45 am
Good for Korver, I guess….I’m still not a big fan. I know what I see. When he is not hitting shots (which lately has been every game), he’s useless.
I remember the Hawks playing the Bulls in the ‘11 Playoffs. Korver was awful that series. Bulls fans were down on him. I expect the same to happen here. So, not going to crown him because his plus/minus is high.
Buddy Grizzard
January 11th, 2013
8:45 am
“JJ2 has more offensive resources that KK.”
Wow Vava, you’ve gone off the deep end here. I will grant you that JJ’s shooting stroke may be as good as Korver’s, which is a major statement since Korver is just outside of being top 10 in NBA history in 3p%.
HOWEVER:
JJ2 cannot get his shot off at the NBA level. He simply does not have all the tools and tricks to get open that Korver has. Also, JJ2 is about 6-1. He’s trapped in a point guard’s body and will never have the advantage of Korver’s 6-6 frame and high release point. I said before the season that JJ2 has not proven that he can guard anybody at any position in the NBA and he has not proven that he can get his shot off against NBA defense. That remains the case to this day. Not a “pet hatred,” just facts.
doc
January 11th, 2013
8:47 am
the player combos are influenced by number of minutes of course. ivan has not been on the court enough to evaluate in such a context. whatever he has done or not done has left him sitting more than i think reasonable. especially true as the team begins to sag because of fatigue and lack of energy in the dog days of the nba world.
Buddy Grizzard
January 11th, 2013
8:51 am
Thanks doc. So according to 82games, the top 12 5 man lineups for the Hawks each contain at least two of Al, Josh and Zaza and Zaza appears in 7 of the Hawks’ 12 best 5-man lineups. PLAY ZAZA.
http://www.82games.com/1213/1213ATL2.HTM
vava74
January 11th, 2013
9:00 am
Buddy,
JJ2 is not 6′1”. Saying that is a clear testament of your pet-hatred.
JJ2 is a rookie, still adapting to the speed and athleticism of the NBA game.
I already saw him pump fake, go left, shoot and hit shots in his limited daylight which is something KK2 CAN’T DO in spite of his 6′6” frame (funny that JJ2 gets a discount of 3 inches and KK only 1…).
I also saw JJ2 finish in traffic a reverse layup which is something NEVER saw KK do.
JJ2 will get there and the reality is the following: this is a transition year and to accelerate the evaluation and evolution of JJ2 is paramount over getting 3 or 5 more wins by not playing him any minutes. Nonetheless, I am not even granting that playing him substantial minutes will actually translate into losing 3 to 5 games, just that if that ended up being true, I would still accept it.
This team is going AT BEST to the second round of the playoffs.
I believe that we need to set our priorities straight.
MsDee
January 11th, 2013
9:02 am
Buddy Glizzard,
“Also, JJ2 is about 6-1. He’s trapped in a point guard’s body..”
UMM, JJ2 is NOT 6-1, he is 6-4. Have to disagree with ya. Jenkins has tad bit more skills than Korver if ya ask me. He’s a sharp shooter, like KK, but he also has a ’step-back” jumper that I have yet to see KK do. JJ2 has showed his dribble penetration as well. JJ2 just needs to be on the court with some ‘pass 1st’ PG that we dont have. Even tho JJ2 doesnt have the best skills at getting open for a pass, a pass 1st PG would find a way to get him the ball. Teague and Lou JUST dont have it!!
vava74
January 11th, 2013
9:03 am
But on playing Zaza and Ivan more minutes, I am sold.
vava74
January 11th, 2013
9:05 am
MsDee,
Teague may still be a work in progress but he is getting the job done MOST of the time.
It’s playing Lou at the PG slot that is murdering our offensive game (and his own game) most nights.
I understand that without Harris we are limited but Ferry should have brought Machado in for a 10-day contract whilst Harris was hurt to at least have another option.
doc
January 11th, 2013
9:08 am
buddy, i am not sure how the numbers are derived in 82games but the top four players also jives with what i think i observe. i have found their numbers reliable as a fan.
i am surprised lou’s numbers arent better as an individual and in combo. it may reflect the tougher minutes played in the fourth quarter. i have always wanted finishers rather than starters as the pressure is on then and body fatigue is ever present two huge factors in performance. it seems lou has preferentially gotten those minutes over teague when they are to be doled out between the two.
MsDee
January 11th, 2013
9:08 am
Either Josh or Horford SHOULD be on the court at ALL TIME..same goes for Zaza and Ivan. Hey YET to understand why Drew is NOT playing those guys at all time!!!
Jason S
January 11th, 2013
9:09 am
Josh is the best individual and “help” defender on the team. I am not sure how I would rank Josh as a team defender. He seems to know the rotations and defensive sets really well, and he is quick to bark at others when they miss their rotation or is not properly positioned in the set … but at the same time, he tends to cheat off his man a lot (especially when his man is hanging out on the perimeter). I don’t know if Josh’s “cheating” is part of LD’s game plan. If it is, LD needs to rethink this portion of the game plan. If it is not, then it appears that Josh is personally hurting team defense for individual highlights and stats.
Korver, though a bit lacking as an individual defender, is one of the best if not best “team” defender on the team.
Jason S
January 11th, 2013
9:22 am
Blog monster just ate a post …
eh, the tldr version
KK > JJ2 at this point in time (no question about it) if for no other reason that KK is one of the best in the league at moving without the ball. He gets open. He draws attention away from the *real* point of attack. He gets the defense turned around. He sets amazing screens (many times this season, two players at once!).
vava74
January 11th, 2013
9:29 am
MsDee,
I will further in saying that AT ALL times we should have on the floor a combo of three of the four guys you mentioned.
JOSH-AL-ZAZA (starting combo) and take it from there.
I was not a fan of the big line up and still consider that Al is playing soft and is exposed by both bigger C and quicker PF but I can’t argue with the fact that from a team point of view the big line up was getting it done.
hfc95
January 11th, 2013
9:38 am
uh oh rod from cp is not gona like this hah.
We better go back to jeff lou korver josh al tonight, especially with devin back now LD can afford to start 2 of our three primary PGs.
Two things will be the keys to victory tonight for the Hawks(and these two jewels of insight took a lot of thought)
1. Out rebound the Jazz, their strength is that 4 man rotation at PF/C with Millsap, Jefferson, favors, Kanter. We gota keep them from second chance oppurtunities.
2. Energy! If we dont score more than 44 by half I doubt we win. We need to take it to them early, not wait for the second half to turn it on.
hfc95
January 11th, 2013
9:41 am
and by saying rod from cp will not like this, i meant C-Vivs article about rods boy K.Korver and his “underrated D”.
kwooden1
January 11th, 2013
10:31 am
What I’ve seen over this losing streak is Jeff getting worn down on the defensive end and weak screen and roll defence. As a team, we’re not going to be a great defensive or rebounding team, but we need to do a better job than we have. Kyle is playing better defensive than I thought he would, but teams still target him for one-on-one matchups, which is a problem.
hfc95 I definitely agree that tonight the HAWKS have to start fast and keep up the pace. They play best when the keep the game moving and stay out of the half-court sets. I actually think our half-court offensive isn’t that bad, but our half-court defensive really isn’t that good. (especially the last few weeks)
GO HAWKS!!
O'Brien
January 11th, 2013
10:35 am
Buddy,
I remember when Bibby was here, and Teague would get inconsistent minutes. However, he would get those minutes with the Hawks bench players, and honestly, more often than not, he did not look that good. However, whenever he got minutes with the starters, he looked so much better.
I think it would be similar with JJ2. Imagine if he got to play with Josh and Al on the court with him for the majority of those minutes?
O'Brien
January 11th, 2013
10:38 am
FTPB,
Doc,
AJ said the same thing from before the season started. This is a transition year, so if the Hawks struggle, and miss the playoffs…that is not a bad thing, for the exact reasons you mentioned.
LD does not get resigned, Hawks get higher draft pick, and I would also add more minutes for JJ2.
Slimjr
January 11th, 2013
10:41 am
F.T.P.B.
“Have to correct perimeter D. Josh and Al had to help out a lot which leaves the paint open if Al is the center. Clear cut to the basket. That’s why Zaza is important. Need him in the paint so Josh and Al can help the perimeter. Also Korver doesn’t drive so he’s not working his defender. He’s a catch and shoot guy. Teague doesn’t move without the ball as a point guard. he’s not working his defender. Guards not playing much defense will not get exhausted where it’ll affect their offense. Errors by Larry Drew not to pick up. Pick up the fact that we need Zaza for rebounding. That we need Lou for consistent scoring. That we need Josh for rim protections.WE have to figure out why we need Teague and why we need Al. Find out what they bring to the lineup on a night in and night out basis.” -Hot.Rod.87-
Ironic both Teague and Al where shopped for D12 last summer allegedly. Their defense lately seems to mimic each others…[escort service]
Josh help defense is second to none [6 blocks] ..He helps everybody including the Allstar who says they have to defend better and play with more energy…..zzzzzzz
Have we not heard this b4?
BTW, the pressure is on Matt Ryan to show up and get his first playoff win..It is a must win for sure..The defense will show up I believe.. Good for Ryan and the offense..
Fascinating…
O'Brien
January 11th, 2013
10:45 am
kwooden,
I definitely agree that tonight the HAWKS have to start fast and keep up the pace..
And I think a big part of that falls on Jeff to push it. Too often he walks it up the court early in the game. Whatever happened to 18 seconds or less?
Najeh Davenpoop
January 11th, 2013
10:49 am
Like I posted on one of these blogs a couple of days ago, a big reason Korver’s plus/minus is so good is that he has only played 43 minutes this entire season without two of the Hawks’ top 3 big men on the floor. Anyone who plays 95% of their playing time with two of Josh, Al, and Zaza on the floor — and over 90% of their minutes with Josh — is going to look good in the plus/minus category. He has held his own but using plus/minus alone to say he’s a plus defender is a bit of a stretch.
Najeh Davenpoop
January 11th, 2013
10:50 am
“Despite their four-game losing streak, the Hawks as a team are scoring an average of 1.12 more points a game than the opposition this season.”
Over the last 14 games, the Hawks as a team are scoring an average of 3.1 points per game less than the opposition.
Rod from College Park
January 11th, 2013
10:52 am
“uh oh rod from cp is not gona like this hah.”
I actually like Korver a lot. Anything is better than Marvin Williams. If we had Korver last year or the year before with Joe Johnson I think we would have ended up in the Eastern conference finals. The thing with Korver is if his shot is not falling he is useless. The good thing about him is you can not cheat off of him ever because he is that good a shooter. Plus/minus, team defense all have their different meanings but the bottom line, (which is what I base my ratings on), is when teams face us in the playoffs, whoever Korver is matched up on, that team will know that they have an advantage offensively. That is how you determine whether a guy is good defensively. The playoffs change all that plus minus and team defense crap. If we play Boston, they will make sure to attack Korver, If we play Indiana, George or Granger will attack Korver, If we play Miami, whoever he matches up on Wade or Lebron, they will attack Korver, the Knicks will attack him with Melo or JR Smith…. He just does not have the lateral quickness to stay in front of the top wing guys. Has nothing to do with his effort or his BASKETBALL IQ, or if he knows where he is supposed to be. Korver’s plus minus number will continue to look good because he is on the floor with Josh (one the the best and most versatile defenders in the league), Teague, who was playing above average defense until recently, and Horford who plays good man defense, but might be the worse help defender in the league. I strongly believe that if you are not a good defender, you must pose a serious threat on the offensive side of the floor to be a good NBA player, and Korver fits that bill, along with guys like Lou Williams, Jamal Crawford.
Najeh Davenpoop
January 11th, 2013
10:52 am
Didn’t see Buddy’s post before I posted my 10:49.
Najeh Davenpoop
January 11th, 2013
10:56 am
“For the same reason why KK’s ± stat is positively influenced by the 4 guys with whom he has been playing the most minutes with, JJ2’s ± stats have been negatively influenced by the substantially lower quality or worse combination of 4 guys who shared the court with him.”
It also hasn’t helped that LD has often used him in situations where he is guarding an opposing PG, especially against teams that bring two PGs off the bench (like the Minnesota game the other day when he was checking Barea and Ridnour). Jenkins isn’t a good defender but putting him on players he clearly doesn’t have the quickness to defend does him a disservice, just like putting Korver on players who are too strong for him does him a disservice.
Slimjr
January 11th, 2013
11:00 am
Yes, that game last night between Portland and Miami in the 4th quarter was simply amazing basketball.
Nicolas Batum= 28 pts, 7[3 offensive reb], and 5 assists….An outstanding small forward who also plays tenacious defense.. He took it to Miami for sure!
Najeh Davenpoop
January 11th, 2013
11:01 am
” I don’t know if Josh’s “cheating” is part of LD’s game plan. If it is, LD needs to rethink this portion of the game plan. If it is not, then it appears that Josh is personally hurting team defense for individual highlights and stats.”
Can’t play help defense without “cheating” off your man at least to some extent. That’s a big reason why the Hawks are near the top of the league in forcing turnovers as well, because he (and Teague) step into passing lanes and deflect passes.
Slimjr
January 11th, 2013
11:13 am
“slimj my faux atl fan. you been fretting the falcons ryan and smith this week for us?
cant wait to see how that giant game turn out. and you? oh yeah they arent playing are they? still waiting on ring magic/dust, eh?
preciate your concerns on my home team tho, thanks.”
Chess pumpin already doc? They haven’t played their 1st playoff game yet this season for crying out loud…..LMAO!
This maybe their year but they will earn the trophy for sure..
Seattle-Greenbay-New England? Whew… Suggest you keep your money in your pocket…Your welcome…hehehe
vava74
January 11th, 2013
11:21 am
Co-signing Rod and Najeh over here but with a caveat!
Jamal never played ANY defense, individual or team and that was his most important negative. More than his shot selection.
Mike is Back
January 11th, 2013
11:22 am
Wow, even Marvin is looking forward to playing us.lol
When the Hawks lost their rhythm…they lost their mojo…most of that was due to injuries. LD was force to play guys out of their roles. LD needs to redefine guys roles and stick with it…quit playing Russian Roulette with lineup…already.
Also, why the heck do Zaza and Ivan have to struggle so hard to get PT???
vava74
January 11th, 2013
11:23 am
AND, contrary to KK, Jamal has the physical tools to be a good defender if he wanted to.
Slimjr
January 11th, 2013
11:28 am
A Trap game tonight? Perhaps?
Melvin
January 11th, 2013
11:33 am
Slimjr,
Currently on a 4 game losing streak. No game is a trap game. They better win this home game tonight and hopefully they won’t catch a spirted Wizards team tomorrow with the season debut of John Wall.
Slimjr
January 11th, 2013
11:52 am
That’s a good plan Melvin.. At least Miami and New York lost too, so Atlanta did not lose any ground to the front runners the past couple of Nights…
MsDee
January 11th, 2013
11:53 am
Drew needs to stay with the big line-up the rest of the season..POINT BLANK!! He can always sub Zaza out early down low if it’s a bad match-up situation. Lou should go back to coming off the bench..its nothing like having instant offense from the bench. I like JJ2 defense better than I thought I would. Only prob I have with him is his outlet passes…seems too slow getting rid of the ball when defenders pressure him. Since he IS a rookie, he will get that kind of attention from defenders to raddled him. I know this wont happen but I would LOVE to see JJ2 start and Korver comes in for him off the bench. Teague, JJ2, Josh, Horford Zaza looks to be a pretty good starting unit to me. Starting JJ2 instead of Korver doesnt seem to lose much from the two. JJ2 stroke has been more consistent lately than Korver, plus coming back off the bench for both Korver and Lou might just work wonders for them..never know, wont hurt to give it a try tho!!
Slimjr
January 11th, 2013
11:59 am
Larry Drew says they have to play scrappy and bring their blue-collar game tonight..
Yea, good luck with that strategy Coach!
Astro Joe
January 11th, 2013
12:08 pm
What a shock, Morrow doesn’t appear healthy enough to play tonight. Seems like between Morrow, Harris and DeShawn, we have 1 healthy/able player per game.
NUNNA!!
January 11th, 2013
12:28 pm
I say this time and time again on here,and im glad that this is finally a topic:
Lou,Teague and any other PG on this Hawks team needs to get JJ2 the ball..
His weakness is his dribbling,the fella has not handles AT ALL..
He sometimes gets lulled to sleep that when he finally gets a pass his way after being open all night and the fellas ignoring him,the ball either slips off his hands or he misses the pass completely..
He is a shooter. He reminds me of Bibby in where he can get a shot off soooo freaking quick!!
And like Bibby,he is slow as crap too lol..
I watched a youtube vid with jenkins working out for P3 in cali last year after Atlanta Drafted him..
Although he did have knee and hip issues,he,like now,is slow as crap lol..
But,he needs to get the ball more..He is a shooter..And already a good one at that..
PASS JOHN JENKINS THE BALL TEAGUE..AND STOP PASSING IT TO JOSH INSTEAD WHEN HE IS BEHIND THE 3 POINT LINE!!
ATLien
January 11th, 2013
12:31 pm
I keep logging on to the AJC each day hoping to see that can’t coach his way out of wet paper sack, energy is at fault for everything joke of a coach got fired.
Fire Drew and trade the soft as baby’s bottom Horford. Hopefully Ferry could land a real talent like Cousins, but if not, addition by subtraction. Zaza is better anyways.
ATLien
January 11th, 2013
12:34 pm
LD – “I said at the start of training camp our mission, or our goal, is to become solid as a team,”
Note to the idiot. The Hawks have been a solid team for years. Any team worth watching has one goal at the start of the season…and it ain’t being solid.
FIRE HIM ALREADY
Grandad
January 11th, 2013
12:49 pm
Entering the Discussion … Late:
I agree with both BuddyG & *vava;
[if vava will allow me to agree]
also for the AMM-rons please find someone to translate
into simple English.
1st Najeh`s statement (+/-) stat is neither a pos or a neg
for def reliability.
KKorvs strength is 3 pt shooting and that is the weight
he brings to his five man combo.
For example – his baskets count 1 more point than do Al`s.
but any basket he gives up count the same.
Therefore his value is weighted more offensively.
That is also part of being a member of a “Team”.
Now back to Buddy & Vava:
Buddy is absolutely correct in that five man combos
are the best way to value/ judge the (+/-) stat.
However, to use a four man combo & interject a similar player;
JJenkins;
into KKorv`s spot, should, intheory hold true.
I`m with vava in that [with exp] I think JJ will become a similar;
different yet better, version of Korv.
At 6-4 not as tall, but he moves his feet better and should be
able to defend the [2] much better.
Although neither will JJ will ever play the [3].
At this point, Jenkins has a wonderful mentor in Korv;
and should soak up all that he can;
especially [moving w/o the ball].
As I see it JJ has the ability to become somewhat of a
RipHamilton with mucho-more range.
As I tried vainly yesterday to point out:
JJ & KK on the floor together really space the floor.
*(I know there was more to it – don`t start)
Now add Josh + Al … High/Low and this along with…
whomever can play and or defend the point …
could in fact be a dangerous Line-up.
*(not our best as it does not include Zaza)
The last time I checked before today
Za was in most of our best five man combos.
____________________________________________
“I’ve been very fortunate to play under really good coaches
who taught really good team defense,” Korver said.
“So, I understand
that it’s never a great matchup for me one-on-one.
I’m never going to pick up a guy full court
and turn him three times before half court and pick his pocket,
things like that. I feel like I know how to play good team defense.
I’ve been coached very well.
I’ve tried to be in the right spot and work the system.”
____________________________________________
Seems I`ve read almost that very thing on this here blog
Chris Vivlamore
January 11th, 2013
12:53 pm
Gone again troll! The more vulgar you are the faster you disappear!
doc
January 11th, 2013
12:53 pm
slimj, i am not that much of a die hard fan to do much chest pumping. i do hope they at least get a big monkey off their backs and win a playoff game.
that is a tough gauntlet to go through for sure. san fran and denver may have their say as well.
hopefully good games for nflers.
Grandad
January 11th, 2013
12:54 pm
H-S
Once he reads this article, Grandad will be on Cloud 9, 10, 11, 12…..100….200….300…..5,000….10,000….100,000….1,000,000……1,000,000,000……googol………..googolplex………………..infinity.
_____________________________________________
The article was most pleasing.
-However-
Your post was funny as all get out.
I have thick skin;
no hard feelins`.
High-sider
January 11th, 2013
1:07 pm
@vava74
————————————————-
vava74
January 11th, 2013
11:21 am
Co-signing Rod and Najeh over here but with a caveat!
Jamal never played ANY defense, individual or team and that was his most important negative. More than his shot selection.
————————————————————————————–
Jamal Crawford is currently 6th in the NBA in individual aggregate +/- (with [a] +247) this (2012 – 2013) regular season.
http://www.nba.com/statistics/plusminus/plusminus_sort.jsp?pcomb=1&season=22012&split=9&team=
Slimjr
January 11th, 2013
1:07 pm
chest*
LouWill83
January 11th, 2013
1:18 pm
HAHAHAHAHHAH JOHN WALL WILL RETURN AGAINST ATL HAHAHAHHAHAHA SO BLOWOUT LOSS TONIGHT AND THEN WALL GOES FOR 13-17 FROM THE FT LINE TOMORROW FOR ANOTHER LOSS… GO ATL
Slimjr
January 11th, 2013
1:20 pm
I hear ya doc. Chest pumping a team is always a dangerous action..More often than not they will let you come crashing down..lol
Yes, some great football coming this weekend. Enjoy! The spread is 3 for the Falcons..I believe they may win by more in the Dome..
Hey Danny, you should seek out Mookie Blaylock to coach Jeff Teague on how to defend and handle pg duties at a high level.. I know Coach Drew was a decent pg in the past. But I doubt he could defend the point of attack[1st line of defense] the way Mookie defended it..
Mookie Blaylock for Mayor!
LouWill83
January 11th, 2013
1:20 pm
Tonight we Make Jamal Tinsley Look like Magic Johnson, Randy Foye like Chris Mullin and Derrick Favors like Wilt HAHAHAHAH AFTER MAKING ALONZO GEE LOOK LIKE REGGIE
LouWill83
January 11th, 2013
1:24 pm
Randy Foye + Jamal Tinsley + Al Jefferson Vs Hawks = 2001’s Phillys Allen Iverson + Aaron Mckie + Dikembe Mutombo
LouWill83
January 11th, 2013
1:25 pm
Alonzo Gee Vs Hawks = 1985s Danny Ainge
LouWill83
January 11th, 2013
1:30 pm
Breaking News: Alonzo Gee to star in the upcoming movie sequel Thunderstruck 2, where playing the Hawks will get you kevin durant skills upon request. JUST SHOOT EM UP!!!!
Duluth Joe
January 11th, 2013
1:30 pm
“As I tried vainly yesterday to point out:
JJ & KK on the floor together really space the floor.”
Grandad, the lineup including JJ and KK at the same time = slow footed defenders for SG and SF positions.
That lineup will give in defensive liabilities more than what they can gain with the spacing of the floor. Not to mention, we become mostly an outside perimeter shooting team. Therefore, predictable, and easy to defend.
We need a mix of a slashing and and classic outside shooting. I am thinking of the days of old, when we had Randy Wittman and Nique on the wings.
That is the perfect complementary couple. You can’t cheat on one, or the other will kill you.
Korver or Jenkins are Wittman of old. We don’t have a Nique player of any kind (not saying same HOF level but no slasher at all) for this team. Which goes all to my point about Hawks needing a trade to get balanced.
Duluth Joe
January 11th, 2013
1:34 pm
So Hawks are not number 3 in East any more. Soon we may get passed by Brooklyn and Chicago.
I wonder if High-sider may then approve of the risk (Gamble) that would be trading Al for Cousins (As his position is a team that is the number 3 seed should not risk going for a problem child, even a talented one like Cousins)
LouWill83
January 11th, 2013
1:36 pm
Breaking News: Alonzo Gee, Armed with DVD of his 5 three pointers against the hawks, has legally changed his name to Glenn Rice. Gee on his Name Change : ” I advise any NBA Player out there, dont lose hope. Just take a good look at that calendar and circle when you playing the atlanta hawks. You will get to be the star. Worry Not my friends. Worry Not.”
Slimjr
January 11th, 2013
1:45 pm
Nicolas Batum= 28 pts, 7[3 offensive reb], and 5 assists against the world Champs no less is the kind of small forward the Hawks should seek..
This dude is the complete package…
Slimjr
January 11th, 2013
1:50 pm
JJ & KK on the floor together really space the floor.”
=
another blowout coming perhaps?
Tri-Cities Blackhawks
January 11th, 2013
1:51 pm
The Hawks better win the next two games. The Heat have lost a few, and we need to keep it close in the Southeast, which is now a two-team race. We slipped from 3rd to like 6th in the East this week alone. Get it together!
Duluth Joe
January 11th, 2013
1:51 pm
Utah comes to town with four top level frontline player. Surely they can’t keep all 4 next year.
Al Jefferson, his contract is over (currently making 15M) a year. Great low post scorer. Ideal complement to Josh. Don’t have to give up Al in this scenario.
Paul Milsap. Classic PF, inside scoring, not very athletic, but strong. Contract is over end of year, probably looking for an increase to Al Horford levels (Hawks should pass).
Favors (under contract for about 6M+ next year, and the year after with qualifying offer at 7+). My favorite Utah big man, one of most athletic players in the league, a classic Hawk, but not as good a low post scorer as Jefferson. Still, if a trade of Al for Favors and Marvin (yes Marvin) is the way to get Favors, i say we go for it with clenched teeth!
Kanter under contract for next two years (for 4M+). Talented, under-rated, under-radar, strong, unknown. If he is available, I say trade Al for Kanter and Marvin.
To me either Kanter or Favors are good enough for Hawks to welcome back (grudgingly) Marvin for one more year (if Marvin is coupled with either Kanter or Favors).
LouWill83
January 11th, 2013
2:04 pm
Will Bynum & Greg Monroe for Jeff Teague and Al horford
Grandad
January 11th, 2013
2:05 pm
Duluth Joe
Defense aside [and I said Za is not on the floor as well]
My premise:
JJ & KK on the floor with Josh + Al High/Low …
*[let me stop for a moment]
yesterday the premise was along with Lou & Ivan
the floor would be open for Josh to Post up] period.
vava was contentious that Lou would not pass
and did not possess the requisite ballhandling acumen.
*[conceding that point]
Rod was contentious that I was blaming Josh for not scoring
when given the opportunity with that line-up.
*[partially]
As the blame would lie in;
as I said yesterday … multiple facets:
LD; Josh; Lou; Ivan; scheme; whatever or KK & JJ
for that matter.
My point is that offensively … that set *’`should`’*
space the floor.
Further;
Add Al with Josh in a High/Low set [effective / chemistry]
and you have an even more potent *offensive set.
vava argued that LD was foolish due to:
“having never used the set previously”.
To that I say Balderdash.
As for Lou at the pg;
I`m not saying he`s SteveNash;
What I am saying is:
Teaguer is *’`not`’* playing well;
* he has lost confidence,
* he does so easily,
* Lou in theory should be cause for better floor spacing,
* Lou is an outstanding pick & roll guard;
-Yet-
it is and was all theory as vava said:
Ld had rarely if at all used the line-up together.
Furthermore:
I say, KKorv & JJenkins will or won`t do much worse
in containing ball penetration than either
-Lou nor Teaguer-
`cause neither could guard their ass from rectal itch right now.
Respectfully,
G`Dad
Slimjr
January 11th, 2013
2:08 pm
The Hawks unfortunately do not have Melo and Raymond Felton returning to the lineup. Guess I will have to lower my expectations as well as other bloggers?
I’m still amazed that ESPN had this team finishing as a #2 seed? WTFreak?
BTW, Felton was drafted as a #5 lottery pick for a reason in 2005..
Grandad
January 11th, 2013
2:10 pm
Duluth Joe
Defense aside [and I said Za is not on the floor as well]
My premise:
JJ & KK on the floor with Josh + Al High/Low …
*[let me stop for a moment]
yesterday the premise was along with Lou & Ivan
the floor would be open for Josh to Post up] period.
vava was content i o u s that Lou would not pass
and did not possess the requisite ballhandling acumen.
*[conceding that point]
Rod was content i o u s that I was blaming Josh for not scoring
when given the opportunity with that line-up.
*[partially]
As the blame would lie in;
as I said yesterday … multiple facets:
LD; Josh; Lou; Ivan; scheme; whatever or KK & JJ
for that matter.
My point is that offensively … that set *’`should`’*
space the floor.
Further;
Add Al with Josh in a High/Low set [effective / chemistry]
and you have an even more potent *offensive set.
vava argued that LD was foolish due to:
“having never used the set prev i o u s ly”.
To that I say Balderdash.
As for Lou at the pg;
I`m not saying he`s SteveNash;
What I am saying is:
Teaguer is *’`not`’* playing well;
* he has lost confidence,
* he does so easily,
* Lou in theory should be cause for better floor spacing,
* Lou is an outstanding pick & roll guard;
-Yet-
it is and was all theory as vava said:
Ld had rarely if at all used the line-up together.
Furthermore:
I say, KKorv & JJenkins will or won`t do much worse
in containing ball penetration than either
-Lou nor Teaguer-
`cause neither could guard their ass from rectal itch right now.
Respectfully,
G`Dad
Slimjr
January 11th, 2013
2:16 pm
“-Lou nor Teaguer-
`cause neither could guard their ass from rectal itch right now.” G’dad
heheh at Grandad! That line is hilarious!
Those two are starting to bring back memories of the great perimeter escort service provider named the Great Mike Bibby!
Hawks Blog Legend Worldwide Clyde
January 11th, 2013
2:17 pm
FIRE LD
Slimjr
January 11th, 2013
2:31 pm
Cleveland 9 wins + 28 losses = 0.243%
Hawks lose by almost 20pts?
So Coach Larry your team could not bring their lunch pail against these scrubs? zzzzzzzz
Rusty
January 11th, 2013
2:32 pm
JT is kicking it out to josh because Josh is sianding on the perimeter always which is where our shooters need to be.
Just Joe
January 11th, 2013
2:40 pm
(basis for) 3-team trade:
Hawks get Marc Gasol
Suns get Rudy G@y
Grizzlies get Marcin Gortat, Josh Smith, Jared Dudley, and Atlanta’s 1st rd pick.
Slimjr
January 11th, 2013
2:50 pm
Just Joe,
substitute Al for Josh in that trade scenario. ^^^^^^^
Rusty
January 11th, 2013
2:54 pm
The team looks like a team should look when JT is in the lineup even tho he should be more aggressive in driving to the hoop & looking for a shot.We get a lot more easy shots.When Lou or even Harris is playing pg our whole offense looks stagnant & disorganized. I realize that you can’t stop great NBA scorers but I still see JT as our best defensive player,period.
tyger
January 11th, 2013
3:00 pm
I hope Marvin plays well, he’s just what we are missing…
tyger
January 11th, 2013
3:01 pm
Enter your comments here
Rusty
January 11th, 2013
3:02 pm
I often see JT leaving his man to play help defense which I’m think LD encourages,even tho at times makes him look bad.
Grandad
January 11th, 2013
3:21 pm
Just Joe
In a heartbeat !
MsDee
January 11th, 2013
3:29 pm
slimjr,
“substitute Al for Josh in that trade scenario. ^^^^^^^”
Naw, Just Joe got it Just ‘Right’
MsDee
January 11th, 2013
3:30 pm
Well…the only thing I would change is getting Rudy instead of Marc
northcyde
January 11th, 2013
3:31 pm
Co-sign 100% MsDee’s 11:53 am post.
I’ve said from the start of the season ( as you have ) that Jenkins should be the starter at the 2. Even if you’re only playing the kid 10 – 12 minutes a game, play him with the starters. We can still let Korver or Lou close the game at the SG spot, but Jenkins should be starting . . . and he should get any minutes over Morrow.
- Start Jenkins
- Play the big lineup at least 20 minutes a night ( Zaza – Horford – Smith ).
- Have Smith split his minutes 60/40 at PF/SF.
- Have Horford split his time 60/40 at PF/C.
- Play Ivan at least 12 minutes a game minimum.
- Play Stevenson and Morrow only if others are ineffective
- Make DEFENSIVE ADJUSTMENTS instead of offensive ones
Astro Joe
January 11th, 2013
3:40 pm
LouWill averaged around 19 points and 6 assists as a starter. LD returned him to the bench and he responded with 5 points & 0 assists in a forgettable game in Cleveland. Let’s hope that it is either a coincidence or he just needed one game to get re-adjusted to the role he has played throughout his career.
MsDee
January 11th, 2013
3:45 pm
Thx northcyde!!
Duluth Joe
January 11th, 2013
3:56 pm
“-Lou nor Teaguer-
`cause neither could guard their ass from rectal itch right now.”
Grandad, I dispute Teague’s defensive abilities not being up to speed (I can’t put it in your eloquent words). Does he get lost on his assignments? Yes. But you need to consider two points relative to him getting lost. One is his God given speed and his athletic abilities. Second his experience(rather lack thereof).
How many times have you seen him catch-up and block someone’s shot from behind? That speed can be put to good use if mentored and controlled by a defensive coach. He is many times ahead of where he needs to be, not behind. That can be managed and controlled.
Second, Teague has been in this league four years. Played less than two years. I say he witnessed Bibby for most of first two years. With Bibby defense was not prioritized. He was the model. Now Bibby is gone, Teague will get better. Coach Drew talks a good talk relative to defense, but his actions clearly prioritize offense, and players get that.
Last, there are currently two healthy point guards on this team (Lou and Teague, assuming Lou being a last resort point guard). Teague knows he can’t be aggressive or he gets in foul trouble and sits. How much does that have to do with his weaknesses on defense?
To choose a back-court of Jenkins and Korver over Teague (as the point guard) and someone else (fill in the blank), will cause Hawks more harm than good. Mark my words.
We can agree to disagree on value Teague brings to this team now, and in future.
Just Joe
January 11th, 2013
4:01 pm
Modified to what I feel is a more “even” trade for all teams:
ATL gets M. Gasol, T. Allen & W. Johnson
PHO gets Rudy G. & Z. Pachulia
MEM gets J. Smith, M. Gortat, J. Dudley & a 1st rd pick (ATL)
ATL looks like Teague, Allen, Korver, Horford, Gasol
PHO looks like Dragic, ???, Rudy, Scola, Pachulia
MEM looks like Conley, Dudley, Smith, Randolph, Gortat
Slimjr
January 11th, 2013
4:14 pm
Teague, Allen, Korver, Horford, Gasol
looks a lottery pick waiting to happen…
They need one anyway
Grandad
January 11th, 2013
4:20 pm
Duluth Joe
I never said JJ & KK both at guard;
over Lou and or Teague.
My scenario was KKorv at the [3].
This was a set that I said would
*’`space`’* the floor
and would -not- include Zaza whom I think should start.
Despite your protestations;
Teaguer has used up his inexperience excuse.
Yes, he is athletic, which is why he should
-concentrate-
on what he could and should do best.
be a lockdown defender of the pg position.
If he is so easily rattled by LD;
imagine what how easily intimidated he would be with:
a Van Gundy, Pop, Skiles, Thibs, or other such dialed in coaches.
He`s a grown man now, in a grown man`s world,
makin` grown man money.
Enough about his tender ego.
If he is that soft then he is not our pg for sure.
Do you really want “tender feelings” running your team ?
I`m not trying to be mean;
I actaully like this kid.
But `tis time for a reality check with this team
and talent evaluation.
JTeague will never, ever be an all-star.
I wish I were wrong.
Keep on wishing.
I wish Al were what he once was;
at least he “once was” !
There is a smidgeon of hope that one can recapture
a missing element.
However;
there is zero chance to manufacture [at this late date]
something that never was. [JTeague]
Jeff must take ownership – and not place blame on anyone
-but himself- !
Slimjr
January 11th, 2013
4:25 pm
The BOSS has left the building…
Yep, he retired a couple of years ago…
Grandad
January 11th, 2013
4:31 pm
As for Lou Williams
My statement is and was he defends the pg pos
better than the [2] pos.
Or at least he did in the past.
He is better equipped [size and speed/quickness] to do so.
However;
right now, he [Lou] nor Teague can stay in front of any
quick guard [pg or not] – or so it seems.
Chris Vivlamore
January 11th, 2013
5:21 pm
Folks: You will notice a change in the blogging process starting with tonight’s game thread blog for the Jazz. As I promised a month or two ago, if you want to post comments – to blogs and stories – you will have to register with legitimate information. Please do so. You will find the way to do so at the bottom of the latest blog. This is an effort to better monitor our blogs. Also, I’m told our new system will help those keep in touch through mobile devices. Thanks for your patience and cooperation. Here we go!
mchezo
January 11th, 2013
5:26 pm
Hawks +/- Over the last ten games: Lou +55
Grandmaster JeJe (GM)
January 11th, 2013
5:31 pm
Everything LD says is cliched and unimaginative. That and his lack of charisma show what this team really is. This team takes after its coach who is too scared to confront Josh or Al
Instead, everything is Teague and Ivan’s fault. He also treats Korver royally
O'brien
January 11th, 2013
5:45 pm
Slim,
So many teams have a good SF (IMO), But yet we were stuck with Marvin for years, and now we have a makeshift SF rotation.
Hopefully we will get one this offseason
O'brien
January 11th, 2013
5:53 pm
Good to know C-Viv. Hopefully this will reduce the trolls who post
Sameba
January 11th, 2013
6:04 pm
northcyde
January 11th, 2013
3:31 pm
100% agreement…
Chris Vivlamore
January 11th, 2013
6:45 pm
Here is a link to the new blog
http://www.ajc.com/weblogs/atlanta-hawks/2013/jan/11/game-thread-drew-searches-answers/
Buddy Grizzard
January 11th, 2013
6:48 pm
“ATL gets M. Gasol, T. Allen & W. Johnson”
Memphis wouldn’t trade Gasol unless somebody was offering Melo or Durant.
terrell
January 11th, 2013
11:00 pm
Where the f was Marvin??
Slimjr
January 12th, 2013
9:15 pm
Enter your comments here
Slimjr
January 12th, 2013
9:16 pm
The Hawks are down by 12 with 3 minutes left against the Wizards?
John Wall took control!
Hawks ship is sinking…and Fast!
TBhawkfan
January 12th, 2013
9:25 pm
Enter your comments here
B-Smoove
January 14th, 2013
2:35 pm
texastoatlanta.wordpress.com
Slimjr
January 15th, 2013
6:40 pm
Good day old blog mates..I have decided to use this old blog. I prefer it over the new blog format..I will however continue to read the new blog inputs..
The 39 point loss to Chicago last night was unacceptable..
Stick this under your pillow:
2 years ago Al Horford played a full season and the Hawks had several record setting blowouts!
Last year the Hawks were very competitive and the blowouts did not occur.
Al is back this year and the blowouts are back against some of the sorriest teams..
Hawks have loss 7 of 9 and it only gets worse from here..
LD has lost this team about 3.5 weeks ago….
Danny you have some important decisions to make and fast..
Shop the softest starting center in the NBA before the trade deadline..