Atlanta Hawks: Korver second on Hawks’ best in plus-minus rating
Vivlamore reporting.
Kyle Korver knows he’s never going to be considered a good defender by followers of the NBA.
The Hawks guard can live with that — even as one basketball statistic and a team-defense system suggest he’s better than given credit.
An analysis of the NBA’s plus-minus rating shows that Korver is second on the Hawks with at a plus-88. That means the team has scored 88 more points than it allowed with him on the court. Only Jeff Teague (plus-110) has better numbers in the statistical category through the team’s 34 games. Teague’s plus/minus rating ranks him 49th among all NBA players.
“I’ve always followed that stat,” Korver said. “My second year, (then 76ers coach) Jim O’Brien was my coach and he was real big into plus-minus. He got me onto it.
“Sometimes, it’s a little deceiving. It’s hard to use it on a game-by-game basis because it shows stuff but there are always (other circumstances). I think over the course of season, or over the course of certain stretches, I think those are telling signs. It’s good. You want to be helping the team. As a players when you are out there you want things to be going well.”
Korver is part of a Hawks’ five-man combination, along with Al Horford, DeShawn Stevenson, Josh Smith and Teague, that ranks 11th in the NBA with a plus-49. The Hawks also have the 15th ranked five-man combination with Lou Williams, Korver, Teague, Smith and Horford at a plus-44 rating.
Korver suggested that Smith is the only Hawks with the reputation as a good defender league-wide. Korver has been in this place before. He also points to the Bulls teams he was on that ranked No. 1 in the NBA in defense last season (88.2 points per game) and No. 2 in 2010-11 (91.3) with only Luol Deng and Joakim Noah known for their defensive ability.
“I’ve been very fortunate to play under really good coaches who taught really good team defense,” Korver said. “So, I understand that it’s never a great matchup for me one-on-one. I’m never going to pick up a guy full court and turn him three times before half court and pick his pocket, things like that. I feel like I know how to play good team defense. I’ve been coached very well. I’ve tried to be in the right spot and work the system.”
Despite their four-game losing streak, the Hawks as a team are scoring an average of 1.12 more points a game than the opposition this season. They are 14th in the NBA, the final team with a plus margin. The Thunder lead the NBA with as a team with a plus-9.06 per game average.
“I said at the start of training camp our mission, or our goal, is to become solid as a team,” Hawks coach Larry Drew said. “We will work as hard as we can as individuals but at the end of the day it’s going to depend on how we defend as a team. I think Kyle doesn’t get the credit he deserves as an individual defender but as a staff, when we sit down and watch film of our games, we see that this guy is in the right spots. He understands rotations. He understands spacing. He’s not afraid to make contact with a big guy rolling to the basket. He gets in there and gets his hands on a lot of balls when it comes to rebounding. He may not come up with them but he gets his hands on it which enables us to come up with it. I do think he’s an underrated defensive player.”
- Chris Vivlamore
LATEST NEWS
* Marvin Williams ‘excited’ about return to Atlanta
* Drew shakes things up with bigger lineup
* Morrow out vs. T’Wolves with back stiffness
* Stevenson weighs in on back-to-backs situation
* Stevenson needs medical clearance to play back-t0-back
* Hawks wary of Pistons’ bench
* Behind the scenes photo gallery
FOLLOW ME ON TWITTER @AJCHAWKS
Tell us what you think about the site
Customer Care »
Vacation stops, manage subscriptions and more
AJC Services
Sections
Other Editions
Visitor Agreement | Privacy Statement
© 2013 The Atlanta Journal-Constitution
118 comments Add your comment
Slimjr
January 11th, 2013
11:28 am
A Trap game tonight? Perhaps?
Melvin
January 11th, 2013
11:33 am
Slimjr,
Currently on a 4 game losing streak. No game is a trap game. They better win this home game tonight and hopefully they won’t catch a spirted Wizards team tomorrow with the season debut of John Wall.
Slimjr
January 11th, 2013
11:52 am
That’s a good plan Melvin.. At least Miami and New York lost too, so Atlanta did not lose any ground to the front runners the past couple of Nights…
MsDee
January 11th, 2013
11:53 am
Drew needs to stay with the big line-up the rest of the season..POINT BLANK!! He can always sub Zaza out early down low if it’s a bad match-up situation. Lou should go back to coming off the bench..its nothing like having instant offense from the bench. I like JJ2 defense better than I thought I would. Only prob I have with him is his outlet passes…seems too slow getting rid of the ball when defenders pressure him. Since he IS a rookie, he will get that kind of attention from defenders to raddled him. I know this wont happen but I would LOVE to see JJ2 start and Korver comes in for him off the bench. Teague, JJ2, Josh, Horford Zaza looks to be a pretty good starting unit to me. Starting JJ2 instead of Korver doesnt seem to lose much from the two. JJ2 stroke has been more consistent lately than Korver, plus coming back off the bench for both Korver and Lou might just work wonders for them..never know, wont hurt to give it a try tho!!
Slimjr
January 11th, 2013
11:59 am
Larry Drew says they have to play scrappy and bring their blue-collar game tonight..
Yea, good luck with that strategy Coach!
Astro Joe
January 11th, 2013
12:08 pm
What a shock, Morrow doesn’t appear healthy enough to play tonight. Seems like between Morrow, Harris and DeShawn, we have 1 healthy/able player per game.
NUNNA!!
January 11th, 2013
12:28 pm
I say this time and time again on here,and im glad that this is finally a topic:
Lou,Teague and any other PG on this Hawks team needs to get JJ2 the ball..
His weakness is his dribbling,the fella has not handles AT ALL..
He sometimes gets lulled to sleep that when he finally gets a pass his way after being open all night and the fellas ignoring him,the ball either slips off his hands or he misses the pass completely..
He is a shooter. He reminds me of Bibby in where he can get a shot off soooo freaking quick!!
And like Bibby,he is slow as crap too lol..
I watched a youtube vid with jenkins working out for P3 in cali last year after Atlanta Drafted him..
Although he did have knee and hip issues,he,like now,is slow as crap lol..
But,he needs to get the ball more..He is a shooter..And already a good one at that..
PASS JOHN JENKINS THE BALL TEAGUE..AND STOP PASSING IT TO JOSH INSTEAD WHEN HE IS BEHIND THE 3 POINT LINE!!
ATLien
January 11th, 2013
12:31 pm
I keep logging on to the AJC each day hoping to see that can’t coach his way out of wet paper sack, energy is at fault for everything joke of a coach got fired.
Fire Drew and trade the soft as baby’s bottom Horford. Hopefully Ferry could land a real talent like Cousins, but if not, addition by subtraction. Zaza is better anyways.
ATLien
January 11th, 2013
12:34 pm
LD – “I said at the start of training camp our mission, or our goal, is to become solid as a team,”
Note to the idiot. The Hawks have been a solid team for years. Any team worth watching has one goal at the start of the season…and it ain’t being solid.
FIRE HIM ALREADY
Grandad
January 11th, 2013
12:49 pm
Entering the Discussion … Late:
I agree with both BuddyG & *vava;
[if vava will allow me to agree]
also for the AMM-rons please find someone to translate
into simple English.
1st Najeh`s statement (+/-) stat is neither a pos or a neg
for def reliability.
KKorvs strength is 3 pt shooting and that is the weight
he brings to his five man combo.
For example – his baskets count 1 more point than do Al`s.
but any basket he gives up count the same.
Therefore his value is weighted more offensively.
That is also part of being a member of a “Team”.
Now back to Buddy & Vava:
Buddy is absolutely correct in that five man combos
are the best way to value/ judge the (+/-) stat.
However, to use a four man combo & interject a similar player;
JJenkins;
into KKorv`s spot, should, intheory hold true.
I`m with vava in that [with exp] I think JJ will become a similar;
different yet better, version of Korv.
At 6-4 not as tall, but he moves his feet better and should be
able to defend the [2] much better.
Although neither will JJ will ever play the [3].
At this point, Jenkins has a wonderful mentor in Korv;
and should soak up all that he can;
especially [moving w/o the ball].
As I see it JJ has the ability to become somewhat of a
RipHamilton with mucho-more range.
As I tried vainly yesterday to point out:
JJ & KK on the floor together really space the floor.
*(I know there was more to it – don`t start)
Now add Josh + Al … High/Low and this along with…
whomever can play and or defend the point …
could in fact be a dangerous Line-up.
*(not our best as it does not include Zaza)
The last time I checked before today
Za was in most of our best five man combos.
____________________________________________
“I’ve been very fortunate to play under really good coaches
who taught really good team defense,” Korver said.
“So, I understand
that it’s never a great matchup for me one-on-one.
I’m never going to pick up a guy full court
and turn him three times before half court and pick his pocket,
things like that. I feel like I know how to play good team defense.
I’ve been coached very well.
I’ve tried to be in the right spot and work the system.”
____________________________________________
Seems I`ve read almost that very thing on this here blog
Chris Vivlamore
January 11th, 2013
12:53 pm
Gone again troll! The more vulgar you are the faster you disappear!
doc
January 11th, 2013
12:53 pm
slimj, i am not that much of a die hard fan to do much chest pumping. i do hope they at least get a big monkey off their backs and win a playoff game.
that is a tough gauntlet to go through for sure. san fran and denver may have their say as well.
hopefully good games for nflers.
Grandad
January 11th, 2013
12:54 pm
H-S
Once he reads this article, Grandad will be on Cloud 9, 10, 11, 12…..100….200….300…..5,000….10,000….100,000….1,000,000……1,000,000,000……googol………..googolplex………………..infinity.
_____________________________________________
The article was most pleasing.
-However-
Your post was funny as all get out.
I have thick skin;
no hard feelins`.
High-sider
January 11th, 2013
1:07 pm
@vava74
————————————————-
vava74
January 11th, 2013
11:21 am
Co-signing Rod and Najeh over here but with a caveat!
Jamal never played ANY defense, individual or team and that was his most important negative. More than his shot selection.
————————————————————————————–
Jamal Crawford is currently 6th in the NBA in individual aggregate +/- (with [a] +247) this (2012 – 2013) regular season.
http://www.nba.com/statistics/plusminus/plusminus_sort.jsp?pcomb=1&season=22012&split=9&team=
Slimjr
January 11th, 2013
1:07 pm
chest*
LouWill83
January 11th, 2013
1:18 pm
HAHAHAHAHHAH JOHN WALL WILL RETURN AGAINST ATL HAHAHAHHAHAHA SO BLOWOUT LOSS TONIGHT AND THEN WALL GOES FOR 13-17 FROM THE FT LINE TOMORROW FOR ANOTHER LOSS… GO ATL
Slimjr
January 11th, 2013
1:20 pm
I hear ya doc. Chest pumping a team is always a dangerous action..More often than not they will let you come crashing down..lol
Yes, some great football coming this weekend. Enjoy! The spread is 3 for the Falcons..I believe they may win by more in the Dome..
Hey Danny, you should seek out Mookie Blaylock to coach Jeff Teague on how to defend and handle pg duties at a high level.. I know Coach Drew was a decent pg in the past. But I doubt he could defend the point of attack[1st line of defense] the way Mookie defended it..
Mookie Blaylock for Mayor!
LouWill83
January 11th, 2013
1:20 pm
Tonight we Make Jamal Tinsley Look like Magic Johnson, Randy Foye like Chris Mullin and Derrick Favors like Wilt HAHAHAHAH AFTER MAKING ALONZO GEE LOOK LIKE REGGIE
LouWill83
January 11th, 2013
1:24 pm
Randy Foye + Jamal Tinsley + Al Jefferson Vs Hawks = 2001’s Phillys Allen Iverson + Aaron Mckie + Dikembe Mutombo
LouWill83
January 11th, 2013
1:25 pm
Alonzo Gee Vs Hawks = 1985s Danny Ainge
LouWill83
January 11th, 2013
1:30 pm
Breaking News: Alonzo Gee to star in the upcoming movie sequel Thunderstruck 2, where playing the Hawks will get you kevin durant skills upon request. JUST SHOOT EM UP!!!!
Duluth Joe
January 11th, 2013
1:30 pm
“As I tried vainly yesterday to point out:
JJ & KK on the floor together really space the floor.”
Grandad, the lineup including JJ and KK at the same time = slow footed defenders for SG and SF positions.
That lineup will give in defensive liabilities more than what they can gain with the spacing of the floor. Not to mention, we become mostly an outside perimeter shooting team. Therefore, predictable, and easy to defend.
We need a mix of a slashing and and classic outside shooting. I am thinking of the days of old, when we had Randy Wittman and Nique on the wings.
That is the perfect complementary couple. You can’t cheat on one, or the other will kill you.
Korver or Jenkins are Wittman of old. We don’t have a Nique player of any kind (not saying same HOF level but no slasher at all) for this team. Which goes all to my point about Hawks needing a trade to get balanced.
Duluth Joe
January 11th, 2013
1:34 pm
So Hawks are not number 3 in East any more. Soon we may get passed by Brooklyn and Chicago.
I wonder if High-sider may then approve of the risk (Gamble) that would be trading Al for Cousins (As his position is a team that is the number 3 seed should not risk going for a problem child, even a talented one like Cousins)
LouWill83
January 11th, 2013
1:36 pm
Breaking News: Alonzo Gee, Armed with DVD of his 5 three pointers against the hawks, has legally changed his name to Glenn Rice. Gee on his Name Change : ” I advise any NBA Player out there, dont lose hope. Just take a good look at that calendar and circle when you playing the atlanta hawks. You will get to be the star. Worry Not my friends. Worry Not.”
Slimjr
January 11th, 2013
1:45 pm
Nicolas Batum= 28 pts, 7[3 offensive reb], and 5 assists against the world Champs no less is the kind of small forward the Hawks should seek..
This dude is the complete package…
Slimjr
January 11th, 2013
1:50 pm
JJ & KK on the floor together really space the floor.”
=
another blowout coming perhaps?
Tri-Cities Blackhawks
January 11th, 2013
1:51 pm
The Hawks better win the next two games. The Heat have lost a few, and we need to keep it close in the Southeast, which is now a two-team race. We slipped from 3rd to like 6th in the East this week alone. Get it together!
Duluth Joe
January 11th, 2013
1:51 pm
Utah comes to town with four top level frontline player. Surely they can’t keep all 4 next year.
Al Jefferson, his contract is over (currently making 15M) a year. Great low post scorer. Ideal complement to Josh. Don’t have to give up Al in this scenario.
Paul Milsap. Classic PF, inside scoring, not very athletic, but strong. Contract is over end of year, probably looking for an increase to Al Horford levels (Hawks should pass).
Favors (under contract for about 6M+ next year, and the year after with qualifying offer at 7+). My favorite Utah big man, one of most athletic players in the league, a classic Hawk, but not as good a low post scorer as Jefferson. Still, if a trade of Al for Favors and Marvin (yes Marvin) is the way to get Favors, i say we go for it with clenched teeth!
Kanter under contract for next two years (for 4M+). Talented, under-rated, under-radar, strong, unknown. If he is available, I say trade Al for Kanter and Marvin.
To me either Kanter or Favors are good enough for Hawks to welcome back (grudgingly) Marvin for one more year (if Marvin is coupled with either Kanter or Favors).
LouWill83
January 11th, 2013
2:04 pm
Will Bynum & Greg Monroe for Jeff Teague and Al horford
Grandad
January 11th, 2013
2:05 pm
Duluth Joe
Defense aside [and I said Za is not on the floor as well]
My premise:
JJ & KK on the floor with Josh + Al High/Low …
*[let me stop for a moment]
yesterday the premise was along with Lou & Ivan
the floor would be open for Josh to Post up] period.
vava was contentious that Lou would not pass
and did not possess the requisite ballhandling acumen.
*[conceding that point]
Rod was contentious that I was blaming Josh for not scoring
when given the opportunity with that line-up.
*[partially]
As the blame would lie in;
as I said yesterday … multiple facets:
LD; Josh; Lou; Ivan; scheme; whatever or KK & JJ
for that matter.
My point is that offensively … that set *’`should`’*
space the floor.
Further;
Add Al with Josh in a High/Low set [effective / chemistry]
and you have an even more potent *offensive set.
vava argued that LD was foolish due to:
“having never used the set previously”.
To that I say Balderdash.
As for Lou at the pg;
I`m not saying he`s SteveNash;
What I am saying is:
Teaguer is *’`not`’* playing well;
* he has lost confidence,
* he does so easily,
* Lou in theory should be cause for better floor spacing,
* Lou is an outstanding pick & roll guard;
-Yet-
it is and was all theory as vava said:
Ld had rarely if at all used the line-up together.
Furthermore:
I say, KKorv & JJenkins will or won`t do much worse
in containing ball penetration than either
-Lou nor Teaguer-
`cause neither could guard their ass from rectal itch right now.
Respectfully,
G`Dad
Slimjr
January 11th, 2013
2:08 pm
The Hawks unfortunately do not have Melo and Raymond Felton returning to the lineup. Guess I will have to lower my expectations as well as other bloggers?
I’m still amazed that ESPN had this team finishing as a #2 seed? WTFreak?
BTW, Felton was drafted as a #5 lottery pick for a reason in 2005..
Grandad
January 11th, 2013
2:10 pm
Duluth Joe
Defense aside [and I said Za is not on the floor as well]
My premise:
JJ & KK on the floor with Josh + Al High/Low …
*[let me stop for a moment]
yesterday the premise was along with Lou & Ivan
the floor would be open for Josh to Post up] period.
vava was content i o u s that Lou would not pass
and did not possess the requisite ballhandling acumen.
*[conceding that point]
Rod was content i o u s that I was blaming Josh for not scoring
when given the opportunity with that line-up.
*[partially]
As the blame would lie in;
as I said yesterday … multiple facets:
LD; Josh; Lou; Ivan; scheme; whatever or KK & JJ
for that matter.
My point is that offensively … that set *’`should`’*
space the floor.
Further;
Add Al with Josh in a High/Low set [effective / chemistry]
and you have an even more potent *offensive set.
vava argued that LD was foolish due to:
“having never used the set prev i o u s ly”.
To that I say Balderdash.
As for Lou at the pg;
I`m not saying he`s SteveNash;
What I am saying is:
Teaguer is *’`not`’* playing well;
* he has lost confidence,
* he does so easily,
* Lou in theory should be cause for better floor spacing,
* Lou is an outstanding pick & roll guard;
-Yet-
it is and was all theory as vava said:
Ld had rarely if at all used the line-up together.
Furthermore:
I say, KKorv & JJenkins will or won`t do much worse
in containing ball penetration than either
-Lou nor Teaguer-
`cause neither could guard their ass from rectal itch right now.
Respectfully,
G`Dad
Slimjr
January 11th, 2013
2:16 pm
“-Lou nor Teaguer-
`cause neither could guard their ass from rectal itch right now.” G’dad
heheh at Grandad! That line is hilarious!
Those two are starting to bring back memories of the great perimeter escort service provider named the Great Mike Bibby!
Hawks Blog Legend Worldwide Clyde
January 11th, 2013
2:17 pm
FIRE LD
Slimjr
January 11th, 2013
2:31 pm
Cleveland 9 wins + 28 losses = 0.243%
Hawks lose by almost 20pts?
So Coach Larry your team could not bring their lunch pail against these scrubs? zzzzzzzz
Rusty
January 11th, 2013
2:32 pm
JT is kicking it out to josh because Josh is sianding on the perimeter always which is where our shooters need to be.
Just Joe
January 11th, 2013
2:40 pm
(basis for) 3-team trade:
Hawks get Marc Gasol
Suns get Rudy G@y
Grizzlies get Marcin Gortat, Josh Smith, Jared Dudley, and Atlanta’s 1st rd pick.
Slimjr
January 11th, 2013
2:50 pm
Just Joe,
substitute Al for Josh in that trade scenario. ^^^^^^^
Rusty
January 11th, 2013
2:54 pm
The team looks like a team should look when JT is in the lineup even tho he should be more aggressive in driving to the hoop & looking for a shot.We get a lot more easy shots.When Lou or even Harris is playing pg our whole offense looks stagnant & disorganized. I realize that you can’t stop great NBA scorers but I still see JT as our best defensive player,period.
tyger
January 11th, 2013
3:00 pm
I hope Marvin plays well, he’s just what we are missing…
tyger
January 11th, 2013
3:01 pm
Enter your comments here
Rusty
January 11th, 2013
3:02 pm
I often see JT leaving his man to play help defense which I’m think LD encourages,even tho at times makes him look bad.
Grandad
January 11th, 2013
3:21 pm
Just Joe
In a heartbeat !
MsDee
January 11th, 2013
3:29 pm
slimjr,
“substitute Al for Josh in that trade scenario. ^^^^^^^”
Naw, Just Joe got it Just ‘Right’
MsDee
January 11th, 2013
3:30 pm
Well…the only thing I would change is getting Rudy instead of Marc
northcyde
January 11th, 2013
3:31 pm
Co-sign 100% MsDee’s 11:53 am post.
I’ve said from the start of the season ( as you have ) that Jenkins should be the starter at the 2. Even if you’re only playing the kid 10 – 12 minutes a game, play him with the starters. We can still let Korver or Lou close the game at the SG spot, but Jenkins should be starting . . . and he should get any minutes over Morrow.
- Start Jenkins
- Play the big lineup at least 20 minutes a night ( Zaza – Horford – Smith ).
- Have Smith split his minutes 60/40 at PF/SF.
- Have Horford split his time 60/40 at PF/C.
- Play Ivan at least 12 minutes a game minimum.
- Play Stevenson and Morrow only if others are ineffective
- Make DEFENSIVE ADJUSTMENTS instead of offensive ones
Astro Joe
January 11th, 2013
3:40 pm
LouWill averaged around 19 points and 6 assists as a starter. LD returned him to the bench and he responded with 5 points & 0 assists in a forgettable game in Cleveland. Let’s hope that it is either a coincidence or he just needed one game to get re-adjusted to the role he has played throughout his career.
MsDee
January 11th, 2013
3:45 pm
Thx northcyde!!
Duluth Joe
January 11th, 2013
3:56 pm
“-Lou nor Teaguer-
`cause neither could guard their ass from rectal itch right now.”
Grandad, I dispute Teague’s defensive abilities not being up to speed (I can’t put it in your eloquent words). Does he get lost on his assignments? Yes. But you need to consider two points relative to him getting lost. One is his God given speed and his athletic abilities. Second his experience(rather lack thereof).
How many times have you seen him catch-up and block someone’s shot from behind? That speed can be put to good use if mentored and controlled by a defensive coach. He is many times ahead of where he needs to be, not behind. That can be managed and controlled.
Second, Teague has been in this league four years. Played less than two years. I say he witnessed Bibby for most of first two years. With Bibby defense was not prioritized. He was the model. Now Bibby is gone, Teague will get better. Coach Drew talks a good talk relative to defense, but his actions clearly prioritize offense, and players get that.
Last, there are currently two healthy point guards on this team (Lou and Teague, assuming Lou being a last resort point guard). Teague knows he can’t be aggressive or he gets in foul trouble and sits. How much does that have to do with his weaknesses on defense?
To choose a back-court of Jenkins and Korver over Teague (as the point guard) and someone else (fill in the blank), will cause Hawks more harm than good. Mark my words.
We can agree to disagree on value Teague brings to this team now, and in future.
Just Joe
January 11th, 2013
4:01 pm
Modified to what I feel is a more “even” trade for all teams:
ATL gets M. Gasol, T. Allen & W. Johnson
PHO gets Rudy G. & Z. Pachulia
MEM gets J. Smith, M. Gortat, J. Dudley & a 1st rd pick (ATL)
ATL looks like Teague, Allen, Korver, Horford, Gasol
PHO looks like Dragic, ???, Rudy, Scola, Pachulia
MEM looks like Conley, Dudley, Smith, Randolph, Gortat