Atlanta Hawks: Hawks 100, Wizards 95 OT (updated)
Vivlamore reporting.
WASHINGTON, D.C. – It wasn’t supposed to be this close. But was it ever.
DeShawn Stevenson, who the Hawks hoped not to play, hit a key 3-pointer with 2:07 remaining in overtime to help the Hawks to a 100-95 victory over the lowly Wizards Tuesday night at the Verizon Center.
The Hawks could have sealed the game at the free-throw line in the final two minutes. However, Stevenson and Al Horford each hit only one of two free throws. After a Jordan Crawford basket and a missed Hawks shot, the Wizards trailed 98-95 and had the ball with 24 seconds remaining. The Wizards’ Nene missed a shot in the paint and Kyle Korver sank two free throws with 7.7 remaining to clinch the victory.
The Hawks ordinarily don’t play the veteran Stevenson in back-to-back games and wanted to save him for Wednesday’s game against the Thunder. However, with Anthony Morrow out and Devin Harris injured during the game, coach Larry Drew had no option. When Harris couldn’t return for the second half, Stevenson got his ankles taped during the intermission.
“We were a little short-handed and I got in a situation where I was running out of bodies particularly on the perimeter and we had guys in foul trouble,” Drew said. “So I had to choice put the play DeShawn and he really stepped it up big time for me. He came in and did a great job defensively, knocked a 3 down, got a tip-in follow on a fast break.”
The Hawks (15-7) defeated the Wizards for the third time this season and sixth straight overall. It was the Hawks’ 18th victory over Washington in the past 19 games between the teams. The only game Atlanta has lost came when Josh Smith was out with an injury April 9, 2011.
The Hawks held the Wizards to five overtime points.
“It was tough,” Stevenson said of his late entrance. “I’ve been through so much in my career, getting played in the fourth quarter for two minutes and two seconds. I’m just mentally strong. We needed that win and we got it.
The Hawks have won 12 of their past 15 games. They play the second of four games in five days Wednesday at home against the Thunder.
Lou Williams led the Hawks with 24 points, including a basket and free throw in overtime. Josh Smith had 17 points and 13 rebounds and Korver finished with 16 points.
“I continued to play and stay aggressive,” Williams said. “Any time that I thought I saw a crease I was able to take it. Tonight was one of those games we didn’t play with a lot of energy so I just wanted to be aggressive any time I had the ball.”
The Wizards (3-19) lost for their fourth straight game. They were led by the former Hawk Crawford with a game-high 27 points. Crawford did a lot of talking during the game, to Jeff Teague and the Hawks bench. Teague was called for a foul after hitting Crawford in the face and it got under the skin of the guard, who hit five 3-pointers.
“That’s my homeboy,” Teague said. “We played together for half a season so we are really good friends. We were just talking a little bit – bragging rights for the summer. … We joked about it after the game. I said ‘You finally made some shots against us.’ He laughed about it.”
With the Hawks holding a one-point lead, 87-86, Smith was fouled going to the basket with 1:05 remaining. However, he missed both free throws and opened the door for the Wizards.
After a Bradley Beal floater gave the Wizards the lead, Williams answered with a 3-pointer with 43.8 seconds remaining. Back came the Wizards on a jumper from Emeka Okafor that tied the game, 90-90, with 23 seconds remaining.
Playing for the final shot, Teague drove to basket but was called for a charge with 2.7 remaining setting up overtime. Crawford missed at the buzzer to force the extra session.
“Coach told me to make a play at the rim and put it on the officials,” Teague said of the final play of regulation. “I guess they made a good play.”
When asked if he thought it was a charge, Teague said “No, but it was the call that was made.”
In three games against the Wizards this season, Smith has averaged 21.7 points and 13 rebounds.
The Hawks led by as many as eight points in the first half and took a 52-46 lead into intermission. Korver had 10 first half points, including three 3-pointers.
Coach and players pointed to the team’s defensive effort in the overtime as the reason for the victory. However, the effort will have to be there again Wednesday.
“We locked down and played solid defense,” said Al Horford, who had five points and 11 rebounds. “We need to be more consistent in that end. Tomorrow that has to be a point of emphasis because Oklahoma is probably the best team in the NBA right now. We are going to have our hands full.”
Notes
* Harris left the game in the second quarter and did not return with what the team described as a sore left foot. The guard had eight first-half points before leaving with the injury.
* Ivan Johnson left the game in the second quarter with a cut on his right hand that required four stitches. The cut was between the fourth finger and pinkie. He returned following halftime.
* Morrow missed his second straight game with a sore back. The guard practiced Monday and participated in the shoot-around Tuesday but was declared out prior to the game. Drew said the team was being cautious with the injury by giving Morrow extra rest. The team is still listing Morrow as day-to-day and his status for Wednesday’s home game against the Thunder is uncertain.
- Chris Vivlamore
LATEST NEWS
* Morrow out, Stevenson questionable vs. Wizards
* A look at the Hawks at the season’s quarter mark
* Hawks look to put worst loss behind them
* A share of first place on the line vs. Bobcats
* Morrow to start vs. Magic, Pachulia warned for flop
* Smith on Smith: Steve says ‘travesty’ Josh never All-Star
* Video: Hawks look to sustain winning ways
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157 comments Add your comment
Slimjr
December 18th, 2012
10:17 pm
1st!
Slimjr
December 18th, 2012
10:18 pm
2nd!
Slimjr
December 18th, 2012
10:18 pm
3rd
Slimjr
December 18th, 2012
10:19 pm
Allstar Al finished with 5 points..
Rod from College Park
December 18th, 2012
10:21 pm
“So far this year, the difference hasn’t been as pronounced, but over their careers, Lou has been significantly better in that department.”
I’d take the better scorer anyday. Not
Slimjr
December 18th, 2012
10:21 pm
Josh and Sweet Lou share the game ball tonight
Slimjr
December 18th, 2012
10:24 pm
That last interior block on the big NeNe by Josh was a game saver..Al was outside the free throw line watching..
Figures…
MrNique
December 18th, 2012
10:24 pm
I’ll take the W, but.
I think on a night like tonight, Pop would have given Morrow/Harris’ minutes to Jenkins. Lets see what he can do.
Otherwise, glad we squeaked it out. Hope Deshawn can go tomorrow too.
Rod from College Park
December 18th, 2012
10:24 pm
“So far this year, the difference hasn’t been as pronounced, but over their careers, Lou has been significantly better in that department.”
I’d take the better scorer anyday.
High-sider
December 18th, 2012
10:31 pm
Najeh Davenpoop [FTPB],
“Over his career, Lou has been significantly better at getting to the line. Lou averages 6 FTA/game for his career; Jamal is at 3.9. Jamal has averaged over 5 FTA/game once in his career; Lou has been over 6 FTA/game in two of the last three seasons. So far this year, the difference hasn’t been as pronounced, but over their careers, Lou has been significantly better in that department.” – Najeh Davenpoop @10:08pm, 12/18/2012
Please keep in mind you are using “Per 36 Minutes” stats which are “theoretical” [or projected] stats and are not “actual” stats. Over their respective NBA careers, Lou Williams has averaged 3.7 FTA/game while Jamal Crawford has averaged 3.4 FTA/games. That’s a very marginal difference of 0.3 FTA/game. Jamal Crawford’s career FT % is 85.5% while Lou Williams’ career FT % is 80.1%.
It still all cancels/washes (out). I hate to belabor this (these) point(s).
High-sider
December 18th, 2012
10:35 pm
^Correction: “…Lou Williams has averaged 3.7 FTA/game while Jamal Crawford has averaged 3.4 FTA/[game*].”
Mookie Blaylock
December 18th, 2012
10:42 pm
In these games where Stevenson needs rest, why not just give his minutes to Jenkins and tell him to do the same thing Stevenson does, shoot 3s?
heat check
December 18th, 2012
10:42 pm
1) Rick Sund deserves a retroactive GM of the year for 2010-11. Great stuff!!
2) Someone please get Nique a calculator or show him some Reggie Miller/Rodney Rogers footage. With 1:10 left and Hawks up by 5, it’s not safe to write this one up as a W. Not by a long shot. You can hear Rathbun wanting to reel him in on that, but he probably has visions of the courtside suit guy in his head and lets it slide.
heat check
December 18th, 2012
10:45 pm
Minutes to Jenkin? Are you out of your mind??? He’s a rookie and has no idea what he’s doing out there! Let him rot….I mean sit on the bench for a couple years to pick up the nuances of the game.
bama52
December 18th, 2012
10:50 pm
Watched the game tonight great win. My question is at what point will our rookies get to play. We need their energy. Jenkins was drafted 23rd round one, numerous other rookies are playing big minutes. The Hawks draft players to sit on the bench. Most successful teams Boston, Miami, Chicago, and San Antonio draft players in the first round and play them. LD got 2 players hurt now is the time to get the rookies in. They should be playing as much as possible both of them are solid ball players. L Drew may do like Woodson did to Jeff Teague, hold him back for 2 years while Bibby walked the ball up the court. Wake up LD the rookies are very talented and don’t pulled them when they make the slightest mistake.
heat check
December 18th, 2012
10:59 pm
Bama, Woody coached JT’s 1st year and LD coached his 2nd. He didn’t get a chance with either until Kirk’s injury in the playoffs. If it wasn’t for the injury, he’d never got a chance to prove himself.
I agree 100%. Jenkins looks like he could really give us something and he’s just sitting there waiting for a 30pt lead so he can get on the court. I’m sure it’s doing loads for Jenkins’ (and Scott’s) confidence. LD thinks development is something you do to a letter before you put it in the mail.
High-sider
December 18th, 2012
10:59 pm
Jazz tangle[s] Nets, 92 – 90.
The “No. 2 pick” in the 2005 NBA Draft who coincidentally wears the No. 2 [Utah Jazz] jersey this season “put up” a double-double (11pts, 10rebs). Joe Johnson scored a game-high 21 points for the Nets.
Oh yeah, Hawks, thanks for “takin’ care of business” against the Wizards even though it (the game) was “too close for comfort.”
http://www.nba.com/games/20121218/UTABKN/gameinfo.html?ls=iref:nbahpgt0021200358
Najeh Davenpoop
December 18th, 2012
11:10 pm
“Please keep in mind you are using “Per 36 Minutes” stats which are “theoretical” [or projected] stats and are not “actual” stats.”
Yeah, I followed that up by correcting myself, but the point is the same. Per-36 stats are not “theoretical”; they are just actual stats per minute, instead of actual stats per game. There are times when per-36 stats don’t matter much (like when you are comparing a starter to a bench player, or when you don’t account for the roles that different players play) but in this case, Lou and Jamal both play nearly identical roles for their respective teams, so per-36 (or per-minute) provides a better picture of how much impact each player makes in the time they play.
Najeh Davenpoop
December 18th, 2012
11:12 pm
“In these games where Stevenson needs rest, why not just give his minutes to Jenkins and tell him to do the same thing Stevenson does, shoot 3s?”
I would have liked to see Jenkins too, but Stevenson is a decent defender, not just a spot up shooter. Nobody knows yet whether Jenkins can also be a decent defender, but from everything I heard about him around draft time that wasn’t his strong suit.
heat check
December 18th, 2012
11:19 pm
Wait….what? We’re supposed to want JJ and Duck back? I didn’t realize they’ve been lighting it up. Let’s see here…….Marvin’s playing 26min/gm…..3.5RBs…..less than one AST, STL and BLK per game……less than 10PTs/gm…..all for the low low price of 7.5M/yr. And JJ……yep, he still isn’t worth half of his salary and apparently his dog just died again, based on his body language. What were we thinking?? Please tell me Danny didn’t say no backsies!
High-sider
December 18th, 2012
11:21 pm
Najeh Davenpoop,
Wrong. “Per 36 Minutes” stats ARE theoretical or projected stats. Correct me if I’m wrong but I’m pretty sure “Per 36 Minutes” stats are NOT used when making Player of the Week selections, Player of the Month selections, MVP selections, SMOY selections, DPOY selections, MIP selections, All-NBA selections, All-Star selections and HOF selections. Right?
Raj
December 18th, 2012
11:24 pm
There is a difference between “hoped not to play” and “didn’t think he would play”!!
Section 303
December 18th, 2012
11:28 pm
Hawks were just coasting today. Other than Lou Williams and Ivan, I did not think anyone played well.
Hated the way Teague handled that last possession of regulation. He waited too long, as ‘Nique pointed out. Also, got caught in the air and failed to find the correct man who was wide open. He has to do better than that…I won’t go into Jordan Crawford handing him his ars the whole night.
They have to play better tomorrow. I think they will. They’re really lucky to pull this one out tonight.
High-sider
December 18th, 2012
11:31 pm
Najeh Davenpoop,
“Per 36 Minutes” stats ARE a “projection” of what a player would average or produce (statistically) if that player averaged or played 36 minutes per game and are based on that particular player’s “actual stats.” “Actual stats” are used in calculating a player’s “Per 36 Minutes” stats. I can’t believe you can’t see (or understand) this (concept); (I know) you’re better (and smarter) than this. Don’t disagree just to be disagreeable.
keith
December 18th, 2012
11:35 pm
Josh and Al will need to man-up and play “Grown-man basketball against OKC. None of this passive, weak, non-emotional, “don’t hurt me” Basketball!!!!
keith
December 18th, 2012
11:42 pm
In 44 minutes, Al has 5 points, 6 assists, 1 Block, and 1 steal….SMDH…If i am the coach, Al comes off the Bench tomorrow night!!! If you earn 12mil/per season, you can not not play like a BENCH SCRUB!!!! SMDH some more!!!
Slimjr
December 18th, 2012
11:48 pm
The Wizards (3-19) lost for their fourth straight game. They were led by the former Hawk Crawford with a game-high 27 points. Crawford did a lot of talking during the game, to Jeff Teague and the Hawks bench. Teague was called for a foul after hitting Crawford in the face and it got under the skin of the guard, who hit five 3-pointers.
“That’s my homeboy,” Teague said. “We played together for half a season so we are really good friends. We were just talking a little bit – bragging rights for the summer. … We joked about it after the game. I said ‘You finally made some shots against us.’ He laughed about it.” C-Viv
JC2 is scary.
Buddy Grizzard
December 18th, 2012
11:51 pm
Horford hate thread?
Slimjr
December 18th, 2012
11:52 pm
I dont like Al at the 4. He becomes passive and gives up the rock like a hot potatoe!
A chief passer he will become and avg 5-7 assist per night..Do I want my power 4 leading the team in assist nightly?
Najeh Davenpoop
December 18th, 2012
11:56 pm
““Per 36 Minutes” stats ARE theoretical or projected stats. Correct me if I’m wrong but I’m pretty sure “Per 36 Minutes” stats are NOT used when making Player of the Week selections, Player of the Month selections, MVP selections, SMOY selections, DPOY selections, MIP selections, All-NBA selections, All-Star selections and HOF selections. Right?”
OK, then what if I gave you per-minute stats? Those are not theoretical, right?
Jamal gets to the line 0.108 times per minute for his career. Lou gets to the line 0.167 times per minute for his career. In other words, Lou gets to the line about 1.5 times as often as Jamal does for his career.
For comparison’s sake, LeBron scores about 1.5 times more points per minute than Josh Smith for his career. In other words, Lou for his career has gotten to the foul line better than Jamal at about the same rate that LeBron has scored better than Josh.
Per-36 is just per minute stats multiplied by 36. It is theoretical in the sense that if Lou and Jamal actually play 36 minutes a game, their production may not equal what the per-36 stats say they would. It is not theoretical in the sense that it is just based on what they do per minute rather than per game.
The Monger
December 19th, 2012
12:00 am
Author….The Hawks are 15-7, not 15-8. Also, I really like the future of this franchise with Ferry. He highly regards shooting and defense…two things that can swing games vicously. Korver was a BIG pickup, I mean this guys is a career 42 percent 3 point shooter, and it seems everytime I pick up the paper and look at the box score, he is 5 for 6 from 3 or something like that. Teague, Lou, and Devin form a lethal guard combo, and Al and Josh down low are good for 15 points 10 boards a night each. Add in ZaZa and Ivan’s toughness and rebounding, and Morrow and DeShawn nailing 3’s and the Hawks are deep and lethal. The best part is we only have 3 guys under contract next year, so we can build around Horford and Lou, and pick and choose our free agents, maybe Josh (but I am still not sold on him, until he gives up the long jumpers). I would like to get Chris Paul and Resign Josh…A lineup of Chris Paul, Lou Williams, Stevenson/Korver/Free Agent, Josh Smith, and Al Horford looks really good to me….Alot of Atlanta connections, and a potential championship run coming….GO HAWKS!!!
Slimjr
December 19th, 2012
12:01 am
W.R. Terrell
December 18th, 2012
4:43 pm
“A win against the Wizards is more then a possibility unless stupidity takes hold. Lets see, if a certain person rebounds, defends and gets his points off put backs and not standing outside the 3 point line then the HAWKS have a good possibility of winning this game. Is that too much to hope for? oh yeah, he needs to play a lil defense also. Al will be fine, he will give Nene a battle. I say lets start IVAN at PF, Al at center and hopefully that nuddy buddy at SF will play with some sense, if not then the HAWKS gotta big prob if those outside shots are not dropping. LD needs to make a statement about stupid play, if not and the launcher does his thing and goes 4 for 22 then the Wizards will win by 30. Sounds far fetched? Lets see what the wanna be superstar does and if he hinders the team. Maybe he looked at his 1-12 and will decide not to be ignorant. Ha ha gotchaaaaaaaaaaaa.”
5 pts, against a scrub front line? Guess this script will be flipped tomorrow by this [Fan Club] member..Dont hold your breath! .hahahahahah
Najeh Davenpoop
December 19th, 2012
12:01 am
Holy sh-t, the Bobcats are beating the Lakers in LA by double digits.
Slimjr
December 19th, 2012
12:03 am
GO BOBCATS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1
Slimjr
December 19th, 2012
12:07 am
D’Antoni was a [turrible] hire! Hey, isn’t that 7′1″ stiff playing tonight for the Lakers?
Rev in Tampa
December 19th, 2012
12:08 am
“That’s my homeboy,” Teague said. “We played together for half a season so we are really good friends.
Teague is my favorite Hawks player so I hate to correct him, but he is not factually correct in the above quote. To be truthful Teague should have said:
“That’s my homeboy,” Teague said. “We SAT ON THE END OF THE BENCH together for half a season so we are really good friends.
Gary
December 19th, 2012
12:20 am
Forgot how good Ben Gordon is for terrible offensive teams. Whatever you say about him, he will get you points when your offense is doing nothing.
sam'l
December 19th, 2012
12:23 am
that game had loss written all over it…….free throws free throws free throws gonna have to make every one count against the Thunder……who if I remember correctly play one of the fastest games ever…..
Ken Strickland
December 19th, 2012
12:26 am
I don’t remember any of you HORFORD HATERS making an issue of Josh’s lousy 1-12FGAs, 7REBs, and 3PT performance against the Warriors. But then again, STUPID IS AS STUPID DOES!
Jamaaliver
December 19th, 2012
12:54 am
AL had a bad shooting night, but put up great numbers overall. Hit his avg in rebounds and led the team in assists.
Those are the types of things winners do when there shots aren’t falling. Play good defense, distribute the ball, rebound like crazy.
He leads the team in rebounds and double-doubles. He’s ALWAYS productive….That’s why he’s a champion, and an all star.
2 FOR JOHN DREW
December 19th, 2012
1:06 am
Good win HAWKS !!! ….. Tomorrow, Let’s go take care of business !!!
Hawks Blog Legend Worldwide Clyde
December 19th, 2012
1:51 am
Bibby, Jordan Crawford, Mo Evans and a first round pick for Hinrich and Hilton Armstrong.
High-sider
December 19th, 2012
1:51 am
Najeh Davenpoop,
Give it up, dude; you’re wrong. “Per 36 Minutes” stats are based on “ACTUAL” stats. What ANAL-MINDED MORON [GM] evaluates players on a “per minute” basis? Don’t you realize (that) when you calculate a player’s “per minute” stats, those “per minute” stats are derived (or a derivation) from that particular player’s “actual” stats? Don’t tell me you calculate a player’s “per minute” stats using (based on) “arbitrary” stats (sarcasm).
Question No. 1: What are Jamal Crawford’s and Lou Williams’ “actual” [career] FTA/game stats? Think about it.
Question No. 2: What are Jamal Crawford’s and Lou Williams’ “actual” [career] scoring averages?
Game, set [and] match.
yup
December 19th, 2012
1:55 am
Joe Johnson was the only thing keeping JC2 from having big nights against ATL #Truth
Big Daddy
December 19th, 2012
2:58 am
Hawks did enough to win. Later when people look back on this game it will not matter whether the win was 1 point or 15. It will just be a mark in the win column. Tonight will be significant in that you can bet OKC will want to avenge their lost at home against the Hawks early in the season and they will be ready. The Hawks should do their best to make Durant nothing but a jump shooter. They can win this game.
Najeh Davenpoop
December 19th, 2012
3:03 am
High-Sider, if I spend 48 minutes on the court and LeBron spends 1 minute on the court, I am almost certainly going to get more stats than him in at least one category, even if just by accident. That doesn’t make me a better player; it just means I played more minutes. The whole point of per-minute stats is that some players (in this case, Jamal) play more than other players (in this case, Lou) and it’s idiotic to assume they are better just because they played more. If you choose to be an idiot, I can’t help you.
Najeh Davenpoop
December 19th, 2012
3:09 am
Everyone’s favorite jump shooting, shying-away-from-contact SG Joe Johnson attempts nearly the exact same number of free throws per game as Jamal and Lou. I suppose you think he gets to the line just as well as they do too.
drmaryb.(""_*).
December 19th, 2012
5:36 am
Preach!
““That’s my homeboy,” Teague said. “We SAT ON THE END OF THE BENCH together for half a season so we are really good friends.” -Rev in Tampa-
________________
Wassup Rev? Teague meant, they played in practice? practice? practice??? [in A-Iverson's voice] & on the end of the bench, they played a card game called [C O N C E N T R A T I O N]. lol
_______________
Shout out to Naj & Hi-sider for the PER Debate. I have been often confused about this stats meaning. Now, Im very clear on this. Great Job – Fellas!!!
————————-
I just hope we left something in tank for tonight’s big contest. It will be another dog fight. OKC is a turnover machine so, hopefully we can finish on the breaks, rebound and play some fierce defense on the perimeter.
Let’s Go Ferry-Led Hawks!!!
Make a Statement!
W.R. Terrell
December 19th, 2012
5:47 am
The HAWKS let Jordon Crawford rot on the bench and the Wizards gave up playing time, there’s a lot of astute basketball minds in here. The HAWKS won a basketball game in OT and they should have never been near OT. That’s like giving the game ball to crunch time choke free throw shooters. ohhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh k, I see the big brains are out tonight.
W.R. Terrell
December 19th, 2012
5:52 am
The HAWKS play the Thunder tonight. Can they win? I hope so but that’s assuming the bigs rebound, run the floor and forget that 3 pointers exist and oh, not play point guards and muster up a tad of defense.
brigadierjerry
December 19th, 2012
6:35 am
slimjr,
This article for you. I dont post here really that much anymore just articles and post once in awhile.
http://nymag.com/news/sports/mike-woodson-2012-11/
vava74
December 19th, 2012
7:15 am
brigadier,
I’ve just glanced the article but immediately I saw it fall short of consistent (as you would expect about a NY reporter, “reporting” on the Knicks”):
“For all his madness and kaleidoscopically inventive profanity, Knight is one of the greatest basketball coaches of all time. The hallmarks of his style—the motion offense, man-to-man defense, focus on the fundamentals, devotion to discipline—have spread throughout basketball for the past five decades at every level.”
The reporter fails to point out that of Knight’s style hallmarks, Woody only copied the “devotion to discipline” and – eventually – the “focus on the fundamentals”* and completely skips the “motion offense” and the “man to man D”, precisely what our Hawks most lacked whilst Woody was coaching us…
* which could explain why he does not play rookies.
vava74
December 19th, 2012
7:18 am
brigadier,
One note: I like Woody. He seemed a stand up and honest guy.
It’s a shame that his view on offense was solely ISO-play and on D was switch-switch-switch.
Perhaps he is changing now.
Admiral SnAckbar
December 19th, 2012
7:45 am
how did Ivan cut his finger? was that when he went into the photogs under the basket?
Orin
December 19th, 2012
8:05 am
Can we please just go ahead and trade “JSmooth”? Smith is never going to get any better than what he is today. Look at his numbers. For the past 7 seasons he has averaged between 15 to 18 pts a game and 6 – 8 rebounds. Last night he was awful. At the end of the game he misses a layup, but got bailed out by the refs. So then he misses BOTH freethrows. And then to top it off, he switches off his man leaving him open to make the game tying basket. He isnt worth a MAX deal folks. Danny Ferry we beg you. TRADE JOSH!!!!!
Gary
December 19th, 2012
8:32 am
I’m going to chime in here. High-sider, per minute or per 36 minute stats are obviously useful. To find out how productive someone is while he is on the floor compared to someone else, you have to look at per minute stats. You might not get the same stats if someone gets more or less minutes, but it’s still a measure of what they actually do on the floor.
Trust me, you’re the one who is off here. You are clearly trolling if you say anything else about it.
Rod from College Park
December 19th, 2012
8:48 am
High-sider,
You are correct. Najeh is just being stubborn. He is one of those fantasy guys also. PER is a fantasy stat. What would someone do if……. I don’t live in that world. You are what you are. Jamal plays more minutes because he is more explosive. Neither guy plays defense, so if you are not scoring on the offensive end, you have to come out. Marvin Williams always had good PER numbers, and he is a bum. Ivan would be a star if Drew played him 40 minutes a game, but guess what Drew won’t do that because Ivan is not better than Josh or Al. The two guys are similar, and I like both guys, but Jamal is clearly the better player even in his older age.
vava74
December 19th, 2012
9:27 am
Rod,
You must have a reading impairment since that would explain a bunch of cr@p you post around here.
No one was talking about “PER” (a useless Hollinger stat IMO).
Najeh was talking about “per/36min” which, as he correctly pointed out CAN be used to compare the production of players who log somewhat SIMILAR minutes and have SIMILAR roles by “levelling” the scale under which the players are compared.
I know that you and High-sider must be having wet dreams with Jamal’s fantastic season, but it’s kind of sad that he only realized that he had to WORK ON HIS GAME DURING THE OFF SEASON (rather than just playing pick up games) after 12 years in the NBA… basically validating all that I said about him: incredibly talented, unwilling to harness that talent and put it at work.
Why does the image of Pacquiao with his hands neatly tucked under his belly right now spring to mind???…
hfc95
December 19th, 2012
9:32 am
If anybody know dominique personally or happens to run into him and can remeber this, please tell nique to stop saying “thats gona be the dagger right there” with 1:20 left in the game when we are only up 5!!! He is trying to put the announcers curse on his team!
I will devote some time today to looking into plausible trades that could help the hawks this year, because there is no way to flunk out and get a high lottery pick as we are a top 5 east team and will make the playoffs. why not make a push to get to the 2nd rd or maybe ecf if the roster move makes sense for this year as well as next.
If Teague doesnt put up 15pts 7ast and keep russell under 25pts 10ast we will lose tonight. Another big indicator tonight will be stevenson and korver need to both score 10+pts for us to win as well.
Ken Strickland
December 19th, 2012
9:33 am
The Wizards are a team we’ve dominated over the yrs, even though we’ve struggled of late to do so. We were also missing a guard(AMorrow)and we lost one to injury(DHarris). Add to these fact to Drew’s intention to save DStevenson for tomorrows gm, and you’d think this was a perfect time to play rookie SG JJenkins.
But no, there’s no way in hell Drew is going to help this team by overcome his stupid bias against rookies, especially rookie guards. I wonder if his unwillingness to play Jenkins has anything to due with him having the same issues with DFerry that Woodson had with BK.
BK wanted to play an uptempo fast breaking style of OFF that required a quick fast penetrating PG. Woodson wanted to play a halfcourt ISO dominant style of OFF, and wanted a nontraditional jumpshooting PG. BK insisted on drafting ALaw and JTeague, neither of whom fit what Woodson wanted, so he refused to play or try to develop either.
It looks to me as if Drew doesn’t particularly like the draft picks or younger FAs Ferry favors, like MScott, JJenkins, KBenson or MJames, who he either cut or won’t play. Has anyone wondered why we haven’t heard anything about JPetro and his condition or progress, or seen him on the active roster? AFter all, we’ve completed a quarter of the season already and he has yet to scratch.
At least KBenson would be healthy enough to play if Drew had retained him and allowed him to play. We certainly could have used a rebounding SF to help our other frontline players last night.
ATMAN
December 19th, 2012
9:33 am
Teague needs to come out with a chip on his shoulder, he turned it up when Crawford started getting under his skin. Should have dished to Josh at the end as soon as Nene broke towards him. Hindsight, 20-20. Josh can’t shoot, Al is struggling shooting. Better play D against OKC. Drew has got to quit giving Ivan only a couple mins at end of 1st/3rd and a little time at the start of 2nd/4th. This guy has the best instincts of the big men, let him play COACH!
Just Joe
December 19th, 2012
9:36 am
I like Jeff Teague as a young player, but IMO, the “next step” for the Hawks will come from consistent PG play. Whether Jeff gets there, or we make a trade, we’ll just have to wait & see. Playing through the high post with Josh & Al is a good change of pace for the offense, but I still believe that the ball should be in the PG’s hands.
CP3 this summer? Any Jose Calderon fans out there? Will Tony Parker be available?
Alex
December 19th, 2012
9:46 am
Ivan didn’t play a lot of minutes because off injured fingers requiring stitches. listen what basketball world saying (s. smith on NBA TV) “hawks continuing to winning because josh,al and lt”. agree 100%. i think nobody will do better with this roster than lt.
vava74
December 19th, 2012
9:48 am
Ken,
Petro’s medical condition is irreversible. It’s called “Hecantplayjacksh!tis”
Astro Joe
December 19th, 2012
10:18 am
Just Joe, I agree. Teague reminds me of the Braves starting pitching staff. Above average, but not elite. Good enough to be sucessful but not good enough to have ultimate success. While Braves focus on offense, I’d love to see them get a bonafide ace (I like Medlin but don’t believe his run last year is sustainable). Teague has become a nice guard with a few really good skills. But when watching him play game after game, you simply don’t know if he has brought his “big boy pants” to the arena. He seems to thrive best against other elite PGs (excluding Lawson) while coasting against non-brand named PGs (like Jeremy Pargo, George Hill and Kemba Walker). I expect him to look really good tonight against Westbrook (as an example).
No doubt, I’d take CP3 all day long over Dwight Howard or any other free agent on the market. The PG position has become too important in today’s NBA not to have someone who brings it each and every night. I’d offer Teague the QO next summer (if we can’t land CP3) but probably not a long-term deal. I’m not sure that he has the fire to become a top 10 PG.
Astro Joe
December 19th, 2012
10:22 am
I’d like to see the Hawks bring in Bassy Telfair as the back-up PG next year.
Astro Joe
December 19th, 2012
10:44 am
Raise your hand if you thought DeShawn would bring more value to the Hawks in ~21 games than TMac did last year in 66.
northcyde
December 19th, 2012
10:52 am
But I thought Jordan Crawford couldn’t play the PG position?
SMH @ Larry Drew.
He’s a much better coach than he is a talent evaluator. This is why Ivan’s minutes yo-yo so much.
Last night’s game officially ends the “Easy” part of our schedule. While we still have bad teams coming up, we’re going to start getting a plethora of average to good teams for about the next month.
Hawks are 8 – 2 vs the SE Division, feasting on the Wiz and the Bobcats . . . and 7 – 5 vs everyone else. If we can continue to win at a 55% – 60% clip, this team will win 50 games.
Reality Check
December 19th, 2012
10:59 am
That game a fight!! But we came off on top. LD does not evaluate talent, ie Jeff Teague. I think it the same scenario with Jenkins and Scott. He should have given them playing time, as we were short, and we have a bigger game tonight. He ran his starters into the ground and does not manage the rotation well. If we do not start getting our rookies in the rotation, our starters will eventually burn out at some point.
Rod from College Park
December 19th, 2012
11:03 am
Vava,
Nothing you have ever debated with me has ever been validated. you have never won an argument. You have been wrong on every point.
PER, per 36 minutes…. All the same to me. I don’t play fantasy basketaball. Never been in a locker room or played for a coachl or heard a coach who ever spoke of any of that nonsense. Because that is what it is. A fantasy stat. If my aunt was a man, she would be my uncle. If it did not really happen, it’s not real. If I was 5 inches taller, I’d would have been in the NBA. If…….
Rod from College Park
December 19th, 2012
11:09 am
“Last night’s game officially ends the “Easy” part of our schedule. While we still have bad teams coming up, we’re going to start getting a plethora of average to good teams for about the next month.”
After the next month is when all you guys who want to talk about how great the Hawks are defensively and how great the team is. Let’s see how they perform against more quality opposition on a regular basis.
I have held my tounge on Teague, but his game is starting to worry me. Not sure whether would should spend that money it will take to keep him yet. He needs to really step it upd and become more consistent.
High-sider
December 19th, 2012
11:14 am
Najeh Davenpoop (and vava74),
The topic of (our) debate basically centered two themes/concepts/ideas/questions.
1. Which player “gets to the FT line” better – Jamal Crawford or Lou Williams?
2. Actual Stats vs. Per 36 Minutes Stats: Are “Per 36 Minutes” stats actual (real-world) stats?
I have conceded the point that Lou Williams “gets to the FT line” at a better rate than Jamal Crawford does but I also pointed out (that) the “actual” difference is very marginal. Case in point, Lou Williams has averaged 3.7 FTA per game throughout his NBA career while Jamal Crawford has averaged 3.4 FTA per game throughout his NBA career; that’s a(n actual) difference of 0.3 FTA per game. It’s ironic that both players have averaged 2.9 FTM (free throw makes) per game throughout their respective NBA careers. I have said it earlier that it all washes/cancels itself out because Jamal Crawford (career 85.5% NBA FT shooter) is a better FT shooter than Louis Williams (career 80.2% NBA FT shooter) is.
I have explained that there is a difference between actual stats and “Per 36 Minutes” stats. “Per 36 Minutes” are projected stats based on actual stats and “Per 36 Minutes” are also an “assumption” of what a player would “produce” (statistically) if that player averaged (or logged) 36 minutes per game. If a player gets the opportunity to play or log more minutes per game, that does not (or may not) necessarily mean that player will produce more (statistically) per game. This concept/idea involves “the law of diminishing returns.”
“In economics, diminishing returns (also called diminishing marginal returns) is the decrease in the marginal (per-unit) output of a production process as the amount of a single factor of production is increased, while the amounts of all other factors of production stay constant.
The law of diminishing returns (also law of diminishing marginal returns or law of increasing relative cost) states that in all productive processes, adding more of one factor of production, while holding all others constant (”ceteris paribus”), will at some point yield lower per-unit returns.[1] The law of diminishing returns does not imply that adding more of a factor will decrease the total production, a condition known as negative returns, though in fact this is common.
For example, the use of fertilizer improves crop production on farms and in gardens; but at some point, adding more and more fertilizer improves the yield less per unit of fertilizer, and excessive quantities can even reduce the yield. A common sort of example is adding more workers to a job, such as assembling a car on a factory floor. At some point, adding more workers causes problems such as getting in each other’s way, or workers frequently find themselves waiting for access to a part. In all of these processes, producing one more unit of output per unit of time will eventually cost increasingly more, due to inputs being used less and less effectively.
The law of diminishing returns is a fundamental principle of economics.[1] It plays a central role in production theory.”
Al Horford scored 5 points in 44:05 of game time last night vs. the Wizards. Horford’s increased level of point production was minimal over time because Horford scored his first two points with 7:07 left in the first quarter and he scored his 5th point on a FT make with 1:29 left in overtime. Did Horford’s level of point production in last night’s game demonstrate “significant increase” over (his increased playing) time? I say no.
Zaza Pachulia scored zero (0) points in 14:57 last night vs. the Wizards. I hope you realize that Pachulia’s “Per 36 Minutes” scoring stat(s) for last night’s game would be zero (0) points (per 36 minutes).
High-sider
December 19th, 2012
11:16 am
^Correction: “The topic of (our) debate basically centered [around*] two themes/concepts/ideas/questions.”
Mr Mojo
December 19th, 2012
11:18 am
Orin go root for another team. The Josh haters need a life. The team is winning and he is our best player root for him and the team instead of bashing them everytime they miss a shot. its pathetic already. There is a reason everyone says Atlanta has the worst sports fans.
O'Brien
December 19th, 2012
11:23 am
A northcyde sighting. I was beginning to wonder if you were now rooting for the Nets and Jazz
darrell starks
December 19th, 2012
11:27 am
Zaza must starte and play more, the Hawks can be and will also continue to get better with Zaza starting, when coming off the bench his game is noneffective with second unit, playing him with first unit he become more of and enforcer and defesively this team is better.
STARTE ZAZA
GO HAWKS!!!!!!!!!!!
darrell starks
December 19th, 2012
11:30 am
STARTER TEAGUE, KORVER, JOSH, HORFORD, ZAZA
BENCH DEVIN, LOU, DESHON, IVAN, PETRO
RESERVE MPRROW, JENKINS, SCOTT
GO HAWKS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
High-sider
December 19th, 2012
11:33 am
Najeh Davenpoop, vava74 and Gary,
That’s the problem with you (three bloggers); you (three) are suffering from “Paralysis of Analysis.” You are over-analyzing [the] minutiae.
vava74
December 19th, 2012
11:34 am
Rod,
Yeah, right “Mayweather”!
vava74
December 19th, 2012
11:36 am
High-sider,
http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/nba-ball-dont-lie/jamal-crawford-only-started-practicing-shooting-232948543–nba.html
Ken Strickland
December 19th, 2012
11:45 am
We haven’t heard much from DFerry concerning his feels about the success of the Hawks so far. We certainly haven’t heard him offer an opinion on the job he thinks Drew has done coaching this team so far.
Could that be an indication that he’s far more concerned with Drew’s mishandling of his player rotations, and his refusal to give any attention or mins to his rookies, than he is with our successful won/loss record?
After all, he wouldn’t want to give praise, especially so early in the season, to a HC he could be looking to let go of after the season ends. Like I said earlier, Drew has rejected all of Ferry’s draft picks, and most of his younger FA signees.
Consider how Drew has kept Ivan anchored to the bench this season, especially after the successful season he had last yr. Doesn’t it make you wonder if he would have given him any meaningful mins as a rookie if Horford hadn’t been lost for the season, leaving Zaza to start with no meaningful backup.
Ferry wants a HC that’s committed to the future, and to the development of his draft picks and young FAs. So far, Drew’s approach has been to ignore draft picks(JTeague, MScott, JJenkins,), or cut them(KBenson), along with young FAs(JAnderson, DJames, KBenson).
When you have a 1st rd pick that’s been favorably compared to certain 1st ballot HOFer Reggie Miller, you find ways to get him mins and experience, rather than looking for ways to keep his firmly anchored to the bench. That’s the same BS approach he and Woodson used with JTeague, who’s certainly become a major factor on this team, once he was afforded a chance to play.
If it had been left up to LDrew, and KHinrich hadn’t suffered his injury, it’s very likely Teague would still be anchored to the bench.
Melvin
December 19th, 2012
11:53 am
” It was the Hawks’ 18th victory over Washington in the past 19 games between the teams. The only game Atlanta has lost came when Josh Smith was out with an injury April 9, 2011.”
Hmmmm….
Melvin
December 19th, 2012
11:55 am
“However, with Anthony Morrow out and Devin Harris injured during the game, coach Larry Drew had no option”
He could have played John Jenkins
O'Brien
December 19th, 2012
12:05 pm
I think one of LD’s strengths is designing a play out of a timeout. So with a chance to win, I am surprised he did not call a play.
Instead, “Coach told me to make a play at the rim and put it on the officials,”. Teague said of the final play of regulation.
Is that LD’s subtle way of telling Teague that he believes in him? Because it’s not like Teague was having a great game. I am a big fan of Jeff, but I did not like the way LD handled it, and I didn’t like the way Teague waited until 9 seconds were left before making his move.
Also, I agree with others that Teague needs to bring it (intensity, energy etc) every night, because he seems up and down.
Ken S,
I think the only reason Petro is still on the team is because they don’t want to eat $3.5 mil that he is owed. Also, I wouldn’t read too much into the fact we haven’t heard much from Ferry. The Hawks are currently 3rd in the East, but the hard part of the schedule is yet to come. Therefore, I think Ferry is in evaluation mode.
O'Brien
December 19th, 2012
12:08 pm
From the Jamal article; “This summer was actually the first summer I worked on my game. I usually just play off of raw talent,” he said Thursday after the Clippers’ practice..
I was very surprised to read this. I thought all players worked on their game over the summer, except Marvin of course, who went back to school and played pickup basketball with Sean May
hfc95
December 19th, 2012
12:08 pm
After a nba trade machine excursion there arent many trade possibilities that would immediatley benefit this hawks roster or going forward. At the moment our roster is constructed nicely with role players and shooters and the minutes are shared all around pretty nicely.
PG-Teague with Devin and Lou getting minutes is a great rotation
SG-Devin and Deshawn starting w/Morrow getting mins(korver w/ big lineup too)
SF-Kyle here mostly and sometime Josh can start here, we have flexibility
PF-Mostly Josh here unless we go big, AL and Ivan rotation is nice
C-AL or ZaZa based on matchup, this is the only position we may need another guy at
Basically the only trade that could make us better would be if we could get a younger guy that can score for devin harris, but that may leave us with a new need at PG to backup Jeff. So as we are now is likely to be how we end up unless we can trade Petro for a big that can actually give us a few mins here and there.
As i’ve stated before and everyone knows we dont use our draft picks anyway so I see no value in our 1st rd picks. Unless GM DF is going to make a coaching change after the season we should trade those picks as LD will not play rookies anyway.
Devin Harris Johan Petro and our two 1sts to MIL for Monta Ellis and Larry Sanders
PG-Teague rotate Lou and Monta Ellis
SG-Monta Ellis rotate Lou/Deshawn/Morrow
SF-Korver rotate Deshawn/Morrow/Josh/Ivan
PF-Smith rotate Ivan/Horford/Larry Sanders
C-Horford rotate ZaZa/Larry Sanders
High-sider
December 19th, 2012
12:16 pm
vava74 (and other bloggers),
I now see another problem when debating on this blog. Instead of admitting (when) you are wrong, you (and other bloggers) will bring up points or topics that are (totally) irrelevant to “the debate” at hand. That article about Jamal Crawford’s training and shooting practice(s) during this past offseason have nothing to do with the “original debate” at hand. I hope going forward that, if I find myself to be wrong (or incorrect) on this blog, I will be honest (and humble) enough to admit my mistake(s). The “truth” is what should “win” (out) when debating – not your ego, pride, and/or arrogance.
High-sider
December 19th, 2012
12:19 pm
I hear ya, Rod from CP.
Rod from College Park
December 19th, 2012
12:23 pm
“From the Jamal article; “This summer was actually the first summer I worked on my game. I usually just play off of raw talent,” he said Thursday after the Clippers’ practice..
I was very surprised to read this. I thought all players worked on their game over the summer, except Marvin of course, who went back to school and played pickup basketball with Sean May”
Nothing new OB. There are numerous players who don’t work on their game over the summer. Steven Jackson is another. I posted a video a while back with him stating that he never works on his game in the off season. Has nothing to do with the players skill level. These guys have been working on their game all their life, a couple of months of rest won’t hurt. Guys like Marvin, who have no game and have not perfected any part of their game should be working on their game. Guys like Jamal and Steven Jackson’s games are already there. Also don’t take it literally. Of course they play the game, they just don’t work like they do in the season. Funny that both guys admit that and neither has ever had a major injury in their career. Your body always needs time to rest.
Rod from College Park
December 19th, 2012
12:26 pm
Vava,
Answer this question for me. Do you possibly think, that I guy who never works on his game can be the best free throw shooter in the NBA (last year)?
vava74
December 19th, 2012
12:28 pm
Rod,
BOTH Jamal and Captain Jack are UNDERACHIEVERS.
If it wasn’t for Pop (who seems to know who to harness and motivate hard heads), Captain Jack would be in China by now.
Rod from College Park
December 19th, 2012
12:32 pm
Josh = best player on team
Josh is the best shooter on the team
Josh is the best free throw shooter on the team. What the heck is Basketball IQ? None of you have played basketball before. Basketball IQ doesn’t exist.
Jamal should win DPOTY, MVP, 6th Man, and make the All-NBA First Team
Horford is the worst player on the team. He can’t score, he can’t rebound. We should amnesty him yesterday.
We should offer everyone on the team not named Josh Smith for Jamal Crawford.
All we need is a 2 man roster: Josh and Jamal. They can play 2-on-5 and still win by 30 a game.
Astro Joe
December 19th, 2012
12:38 pm
OB, I’m not sure I agree with your concern about LD giving Teague that last shot. Teague and JC2 are good friends and clearly, JC2 had a very, very good night. LD allowerd Jeff a chance to “win”, both from a team standpoint as well as from a “I made the winning shot” standpoint. He trusted him and gave him a chance to walk out of that arena as the hero.
The downside, IMO, is running a play with the intent to have the ref bail someone out.
Part of Teague’s personal “player development path” MUST be his ability to make winning plays at the close of tight games. Whether that is making a perfect pass or making the big shot. He has not always had great success in those situations… but we need our PG to feel good about running the play in the closing seconds of a one possession game.
If that isn’t the manifestation of REAL player development, I guess I don’t understand the concept.
kwooden
December 19th, 2012
12:44 pm
Last night’s game was very interesting, we definitely don’t play well if Horford isn’t scoring inside. I think the guys were still feeling the loss against Golden State and just didn’t have their confidence. Josh played a lot better, but Al just didn’t have it. Nene is a tough matchup for Al and Zaza, and it showed. Overall though, I’m happy with this team. I think the upcoming schedule should put the team back in the standings, but we’re in a weak division so I don’t see any reason why we can’t make the Playoffs when everything is said and done. Hopefully we can get a trade that brings us some help at the SF position.
GO HAWKS!!
bfred
December 19th, 2012
12:45 pm
Hey Viv, can you get some color on what the plan is with Jenkins? The Hawks seemingly brought him back to the big team just to sit him; wouldn’t he be better off putting up 20+/night back in the D-league getting minutes, reps and game conditioning? This guy was the best 3-point shooter in all of the NCAA last year, and hung 30+ on Kentucky in Vandy’s SEC championship win (against an all-NBA roster). I know not everyone was thrilled with picking him in the first round, but that doesn’t mean he can’t play at all. We’ve had plenty of opportunities where the game was already decided to at least run him for three or four minutes in garbage time.
vava74
December 19th, 2012
12:46 pm
Rod,
Yes. Jamal is supremely talented and shooting standing still is for him as easy as breathing so I don’t think he ever works on his FT shooting.
Also, you are neglecting a major point:
During shooting drills, a good NBA shooter will easily hit .800 of his shots and probably about .950 of their FTs).
Why do they end up hitting only .450 and .800 during games?
PRESSURE
Jamal has an irrational confidence in himself, so FTs, standing still, no opposition, is nothing for him.
As for normal shots, Jamal would be a career .500 shooter IF he did not take one or two really bad shots that he always launches per game and if he, like he did this year, had worked on his game to keep his shooting sharp.
cp
December 19th, 2012
12:56 pm
Teague has to play a lot better. He started the season strong then his play dipped a little. Then he had a stretch where he looked like he was going through the motions. After LD sat him on the bench in that Denver game he seemed to play better but the past few games he has been bad on both sides of the ball. Like others have mentioned, he has to play with better consistency and energy night in and night out. Im a fan of Teague but if he keeps having nights where he just goes through the motions then we might need to see if we can find a better option. I really want him to succeed but dude has to learn to bring it every night not just when he plays against the elite pg’s.
Hawks Blog Legend Worldwide Clyde
December 19th, 2012
1:07 pm
FREE JENKINS
With the injuries we have let the rookie go in and show what he can do. Let him get the experience early and save the veterans for the playoffs.
Rod from College Park
December 19th, 2012
1:21 pm
“Yes. Jamal is supremely talented and shooting standing still is for him as easy as breathing so I don’t think he ever works on his FT shooting.”
If you think a guy can shoot 95% from the Free throw line and not practice on his game, you are truly dumber than you appear on this blog.
“As for normal shots, Jamal would be a career .500 shooter IF he did not take one or two really bad shots that he always launches per game and if he, like he did this year, had worked on his game to keep his shooting sharp.”
Do me a favor, please show me a shooting guard who shoots over 50% from the field for a career. LOL. Even the great Micheal Jordan could not accomplish that feat.
MattP
December 19th, 2012
1:25 pm
Drew had no excuse to not play Jenkins last night. He should have atleast been tried out for a few minutes before Stevenson was brought in. Jenkins could have filled in as a 2 guard when the Hawks lost Harris. Now Stevenson will probably be limited on minutes or out against the Thunder.
Just Joe
December 19th, 2012
1:29 pm
You guys are killing me with this FTA argument between JaCraw & LouWill. Somebody simply post avg FTA & avg minutes played for each player. If LouWill avgs more attempts per game (3.7 vs. 3.4), while playing on average 5 less minutes per game, then Lou obviously gets to the line at a higher “rate” than Jamal. The key word being “rate”, which implies an average over a period of time (minute perhaps) or event (game perhaps).
Dept. Of Unintended Irony
December 19th, 2012
1:49 pm
“You are over-analyzing [the] minutiae.”
Considering the source, that’s the most ironic post I’ve seen in a long time. Easily.
Sautee
December 19th, 2012
2:04 pm
“Do me a favor, please show me a shooting guard who shoots over 50% from the field for a career. LOL. Even the great Micheal Jordan could not accomplish that feat.” – Rod from CP
Chris Mullin: .509%
Otis Birdsong: .506%
Sidney Moncrief: .502%
Doug Collins: .501%
Andrew Toney: .500%
MsDee
December 19th, 2012
2:21 pm
Rob from CP,
I think its your move….
Grandad
December 19th, 2012
2:46 pm
I have been perusing the stats:
Al had an abysmal shooting nite;
however, he only missed 3 less shots than Josh,
yet he missed 3 less shots than did Lou [6 of 18];
of whom someone said: should be game co-MVP.
Inasmuch as Al contributed 11 boards, 6, assts, 1 blk,
while committing only 1 turnover and posted a +8 (+/-),
perhaps he was not as dastardly as some would have you believe.
My opinion is:
Al had a night of which he is not proud,
and as an athlete will hold himself accountable
to [his] standard of excellence.
In other words;
most athletes would say of themselves:
” I had a bad nite “.
On the other hand:
a good coach will look deep into the stats;
and see his overall contribution to the collective `Team effort’.
__________________________________________________
MsDee
December 19th, 2012
2:49 pm
Alex Kennedy: Crazy fact: Josh Smith is the only player in NBA history with career averages over 15 points, 7 rebounds, 3 assists, 2 blocks and 1 steal. Twitter @AlexKennedyNBA
Rod from College Park
December 19th, 2012
3:00 pm
“On the other hand:
a good coach will look deep into the stats;
and see his overall contribution to the collective `Team effort’.”
Wonder why you never look for things like that when Josh has a bad game? When Josh has a bad game from the field, because he always fills up the stat sheet, he has low baskeball IQ, he does not hustle or he argues with the refs too much. Double standard huh.
Melvin
December 19th, 2012
3:05 pm
I have no problem with Teague making his move under 5 seconds left in a TIED game. Look at it from this prospective, if he had turn the ball over (which he did) or missed a shot and the Wizards rebound the ball (highly likely with the wait the Hawks rebound) then call time out. That would have allowed the Wizards more time to execute a play on their possession. Now if the Wizards had the lead, then I would have preferred him to make his move sooner for a chance at an offensive reb in case of a missed shot attempt….
SteveW
December 19th, 2012
3:07 pm
AJ – You and I have the exact same opinion on Teague. I said he’d be at 13 and 6 this season 2 years ago, just because I knew Teague and his work ethic and also his limitations. He’ll never be a top 10 PG unless a lot of them get hurt.
But he’s still the best PG we’ve had since Mookie, except a season+ stretch with Bibby before he fell off the physical cliff.
This is/was his All Star year with Rosé, Wall and Irving down, but I don’t think he’s going to make it unless he goes on an insane tear.
Teague – no more than 4 years at 6 mill per.
And yes, if we could package some of the wounded warriors together – Korver, Harris, Stevenson, Morrow (two out of those 4) and maybe that Houston pick, I’d take Calderon all day long, and team him with Jeff. On second thought, maybe that’s too much, but yes, Calderon would be a great compliment to Jeff Teague.
SteveW
December 19th, 2012
3:10 pm
Something tells me the Harris, Korver, Stevenson, Morrow injury bug is going to follow us all season. Jenkins may get some burn yet
Grandad
December 19th, 2012
3:15 pm
concerning LD
LD is acutely narrow minded.
“We were a little short-handed
and I got in a situation where I was running out of bodies
particularly on the perimeter and we had guys in foul trouble,”
To which he played DSteve;
“It worked out great for him”. I`ll give him credit for that.
DSteve has been better than I imagined he `could ‘ be.
Now, back to narrow minded Larry.
Were DSteve not available “for real” what would he do ?
answer:
Tolliver, of course – we saw that last nite.
Let`s review options, of which LD could or would nor see:
(1) JJenkins – obv i o u s …choice
(2) Zaza only played 15 min
Why not a Big line-up / I didn`t look at the stat but
WW was killing us on the offensive boards.
Only two – but they are so apparent – Why ?
____________________________________________
Having said:
It made all the remonstrance about DSteve playin`
and being short of perimeter players appear,
as an excuse for playing poorly.
MattP
December 19th, 2012
3:23 pm
Well said Grandad
Rod from College Park
December 19th, 2012
3:27 pm
Much different era’s totally different game than today. Jordan changed the game, and the three point line did as well.
Chris Mullin: .509% – Mullin played SF most of his career alongside Mitch Richmond, and Tim Hardaway. The comparable guy would have been Mitch Richmond. He was the scorer. Mullin was a knock down shooter. Totally different.
Otis Birdsong: .506% – Don’t remember sseeing him play.
Sidney Moncrief: .502% – From what I remember of Moncrief he was one of those hybrid point/ shooting guards who was better at running the team and distributing the ball than scoring. The volume shooters on his Milwaukee teams were Paul Pressey and Terry Cummings. Bad comparison.
Doug Collins: .501% – Don’t remeber Doug Collins game, so I won’t comment.
Andrew Toney: .500% – Best comparison to Jamal. Instant offense of the bench. Volume shooter who played the 2. Very streaky and when he got hot could not be stopped. Still would not get gassed about his shooting percentage because he only palyed 8 years compared to Jamal playing 15 years. Plus he played on much better teams, could not be doubled because of being on the floor with Moses Malone, Dr. J and Moe Cheeks, and he played in a much different era.
The point of the post is that most volume shooting 2 guards won’t shoot over 50%, which is what Vava said Jamal should do. If Jordan, Kobe, Iverson, Reggie Miller and Wade could not do it then why are you holding Jamal to that standard.
Nate ArchiBALL
December 19th, 2012
3:30 pm
Al had an abysmal shooting nite – and that is just based on the shots he took. One must also take into consideration the open looks that he passed up…. on two occasions rather than take the shot he passed to ZaZa who promptly bricked both opportunities. A shot by Al on a bad shooting night is better than any shot by ZaZa. (ZaZa stats last 3 games – 0 for 3 from the field — 7 for 20 from the field for the month of December – 8 games)
When I watch a game not only do I take note of the bad shots that are taken (Josh and Lou) but I also look at open shots that are not taken (Al mostly).
SteveW
December 19th, 2012
3:36 pm
Get CP3 this summer if you can and forget Teague. No brainier. You can match any offer on Teague, and maybe nobody gives him a poison pill.
Slimjr
December 19th, 2012
3:37 pm
Teague broke jumper will keep him from becoming elite and its sad because his penetrations skills are very good. He can get any shot he wants because of his great quickness and agility..
His jumper will hold him back. Why should I have confidence in it when doesn’t? Hmmmmm
And yes Al had an abysmal shooting night and thats being kind because:
Golden St. is > then The Wizards by a long shot.. Hmmmm
Grandad
December 19th, 2012
3:38 pm
Rod f CP
Not True !
That was my whole purpose for writing that post.
I`m tired of “us” tearing down on Hawk to build up another.
Perhaps you missed My diatribe the other day !
One does not have to belittle one Hawk while critiquing another.
Yes,
I have critiqued Josh harshly and will continue if warranted.
I will not attack another Hawk to build my case.
When critiquing Josh I have always ended by saying
and
“I like Josh” !
I would love the opportunity to Coach Josh !
One of three things would happen:
1. He would change for the better
2. He would be gone
3. I would be gone
If and when the time is right I will critique Al and have do so in the past.
My defense of Al has been again st folke who attack
blindly and w/o any concept of what they are talkin` about.
When someone critiques Al fairly – I have No problem.
Josh drives be stark ravin` bananas !
As he does [I`m quite certain] even his most avid fans.
____________________________________________
note
I defended your guy JamalCrawford the whole time he was here !
I pretty much soured on JoeJohnson the last couple of yrs.
Same with Bibby.
Marvin – I defended as long as I could / then I just gave up.
My one Criteria – when I critique;
*[..it is Not Hate (read Jeff Shultz column)..]
* I try very hard not to dismantle one player to build up another.
* note – this is not to say – one should not compare & contrast.
* There is a difference.
____________________________________________
I hope I have answered to your satisfaction.
Grandad
December 19th, 2012
3:39 pm
*one Hawk … not *[on] Hawk !
O'Brien
December 19th, 2012
3:43 pm
Nate,
Al needs to be more aggressive looking for his shot, especially when a) Josh is off and b) he is open. Something about his mindset makes him defer too much at times.
Grandad
December 19th, 2012
3:43 pm
My post at 3:38 pm
most probably set a record for misspelling and typos.
I attempted to type too fast.
It`s like John Wooden always said:
” Be quick, but don`t get in a hurry “
Slimjr
December 19th, 2012
3:44 pm
The [Chief Passer] became just that because he was the slowest of foot speed amongst the Bigs on both sides of the court last night except for Zaza….
Means he was guarded out in his comfort zone[mid-range land] and had no other choice[lack of post game] but to give up the rock time and again.
He is not being attacked personally just his game play. Comprende?
Ah forget it. lol
Slimjr
December 19th, 2012
3:49 pm
Prediction: If the [Chief Passer] drops 5 pts. tonight, OKC will breeze through their 12th win in a row..
I expect 15 and 12 from him tonight!
Slimjr
December 19th, 2012
3:53 pm
Why cant Al and Josh start to work together to produce solid [nimbers] night in and night out?
They have played together for years now.. The Hawks need a solid night from both Allstars or else.
Slimjr
December 19th, 2012
3:58 pm
Teague needs to visit the [Wizard] like the Tin Man in the ” The Wizard of OZ.” lol
So Teague said JC2 was talking smack to him and the Hawks bench as he was raining 3’s?
I wonder what he told Larry Drew?
O'Brien
December 19th, 2012
4:00 pm
Nets and Knicks are playing for the 3rd time this season. But yet the Hawks have yet to play either of them. And we have played the Wizards 3 times already. Quirky schedule
Slimjr
December 19th, 2012
4:01 pm
To borrow a term from [The Rev], JC2 probably told Larry Drew F- U [forgive you]. LOL!
Slimjr
December 19th, 2012
4:05 pm
Looks like the Honey Moon [soft schedule] is [ova]! The NBA schedule always finds you out. Nothing new there…
These 50-54 wins will be earned for sure.. Bring on OKC and the Knicks and the Nets, et al!
Slimjr
December 19th, 2012
4:10 pm
One thing I notice that Al does is play flat-footed. It slows down your reaction speed on defense.Especially help defense..
Watch closely tonight on the big screen in HD! He needs to play on the balls of his feet not his heels..
Sautee
December 19th, 2012
4:13 pm
“The point of the post is that most volume shooting 2 guards won’t shoot over 50%, which is what Vava said Jamal should do.” – Rod from CP
I agree. And my point was that SOME do.
You asked to name shooting guards who shot over 50% for their career. Then when I show you, it’s… well, that was a different era. LOL.
Rod from College Park
December 19th, 2012
4:14 pm
“One must also take into consideration the open looks that he passed up…. on two occasions rather than take the shot he passed to ZaZa who promptly bricked both opportunities. A shot by Al on a bad shooting night is better than any shot by ZaZa. (ZaZa stats last 3 games – 0 for 3 from the field — 7 for 20 from the field for the month of December – 8 games)”
Could not agree more.
Slimjr
December 19th, 2012
4:15 pm
Once the Knicks get their 3 starters back they will blow [The Houston Rockets] out of the GYM…
Book it Dano!
Sautee
December 19th, 2012
4:18 pm
“Why cant Al and Josh start to work together to produce solid [nimbers] night in and night out?” – slimjr
They DO, slim. If they didn’t then how are they both averaging 16+.
You are WAYYYYY over reacting to each of them having as bad a game as they have had in their respective careers. If they didn’t produce night in and night out, they COULD NOT have the nimbers they do.
You act like they have 30 point nights, and then 8 point nights exclusively. Silly.
Slimjr
December 19th, 2012
4:19 pm
Al take those knee braces off and watch your foot speed double..hmmmm
Slimjr
December 19th, 2012
4:20 pm
Scottie, engage the scroll key, make it so. Aye Captain…
O'Brien
December 19th, 2012
4:26 pm
Slim,
Do you think WOody should start A’mare or bring him off the bench?
Astro Joe
December 19th, 2012
4:26 pm
OB, I’m not sure about quirky, seems like some of the divisional opponents are seeing each other more times early in the season. Hawks and Wizards & Bobacts…. Knicks & Nets.
I’d also suggest that Horford would rather pass to an open teammate than take a contested shot. Likely why both his assists and field goal percentage are very good (depsite his middling usage rate). I think that is what you want from someone who is best suited as a team’s 2nd or 3rd scoring option.
Steve, in Teague’s case, it really isn’t about his stats. Watching him be aggressive in one game and then (as cp said) “go through the motions” in the next doesn’t always show up in a stat line… but you can clearly see it when watching him perform. You get excited when he more than holds his own against CP3 only to let Jeremy Pargo look like a promising 1st round pick in another game. I was looking forward to a competitive battle against Ty Lawson, but instead, he was knocked out in the 3rd round of the fight. IMO, it is less a basketball preparedness issue and more of a maturity/emotional issue. Again, I am predicting that he will be super-energized to battle Westbrook tonight. I expect the version of Teague that played so well against CP3 to show up (wearing his big boy pants).
Astro Joe
December 19th, 2012
4:32 pm
Slim, the vast majority of teams designate a single help defender. You don’t want two guys chasing the same shooter. That would essentially mean 3 players are defending one, which will surely result in an easy look for an opposing teammate. Josh is this team’s designated help defender and has been since his rookie season (Woody employed him as a roving saefty, running around the court like a wild man trying to block everything that went up). He is likely to go down as one of the 3 best shot-blocking forwards in NBA history.
You know what would happen in Woody played a healthy Camby and a healthy Chandler together? He would tell one of them to provide help defnse and the other would watch their blocks/game go down.
Sautee
December 19th, 2012
4:33 pm
“I’d also suggest that Horford would rather pass to an open teammate than take a contested shot. Likely why both his assists and field goal percentage are very good (depsite his middling usage rate). I think that is what you want from someone who is best suited as a team’s 2nd or 3rd scoring option.” – Astro Joe
Good point, AJ. Some on the blog act like every pass Al makes, he’s passing up a 12 footer. Personally, I’m glad he is so judicious with his shots. Would I like to see him more aggressive on offense? Some, but with all those shooters, how can you criticize him for getting good shooters the ball?
Unless you just WANT to find fault.
Slimjr
December 19th, 2012
4:37 pm
OB,
no NBA Coach worth his salt would start Amar’e especially after coming off of knee surgery. I like what I heard on ESPN today reference Woody handling Amar’es return next week.
ESPN reported today that Amar’e will agree to however coach Woodson brings him back..Word is he will be brought back slowly coming off the bench as a 5 backing up Chandler..Looks like the Knicks want to keep Melo at the power forward for the time being. Which is a no [brainer] as Melo is averaging close to 30 pts per night as a power forward.
Rod from College Park
December 19th, 2012
4:38 pm
“I agree. And my point was that SOME do.
You asked to name shooting guards who shot over 50% for their career. Then when I show you, it’s… well, that was a different era. LOL.”
You posted players from the 80’s. I was born in the 70’s. Sorry i did not get to see James Naismith play like some of you did.
Sautee
December 19th, 2012
4:42 pm
“You posted players from the 80’s.” – Rod from CP
LOL, you didn’t specify which era, until AFTER the fact. You just said SG over 50% for a career.
Rod from College Park
December 19th, 2012
4:49 pm
“I’d also suggest that Horford would rather pass to an open teammate than take a contested shot. Likely why both his assists and field goal percentage are very good (depsite his middling usage rate). I think that is what you want from someone who is best suited as a team’s 2nd or 3rd scoring option.” – Astro Joe”
Totally disagree. Most coaches I played for were very big on KYP. Know Your Personel. It is a horrible decision for Al to pass up a 15 foot jump shot to kick it to a wide open Josh Smith for 3. It is even worse to pass the ball to Zaza on the move. Al and Josh are the best scoring options on the team. Both should take advantage of shots when they have them. If Al does not feel comfortable taking those shots, then there should be no complaining about Josh shooting long jumpers and 3’s. Somebody has to shoot, and your two best players should be the ones to do it. Only other guy on this team that should have the usage rate of Josh or Al is Lou Williams.
Rod from College Park
December 19th, 2012
4:52 pm
“LOL, you didn’t specify which era, until AFTER the fact. You just said SG over 50% for a career.”
I did not know I was talking a guy who was around when basketball was invented, and the questions was not directed at you, it was directed a Vava, Mr. Smartypants.
MsDee
December 19th, 2012
5:11 pm
Rod from CP,
“and the questions was not directed at you, it was directed a Vava, Mr. Smartypants.”
This is an open blog..what one says to one could be responded by others…
Nate ArchiBALL
December 19th, 2012
5:20 pm
I do think Al and Josh play well together…….If we only had a startling defensive minded Center. Can you imagine this team with Al at PF, Josh at SF, ZaZa as the backup Center and a starting Center like Tyson Chandler……..
Grandad
December 19th, 2012
5:31 pm
A few notes:
Help Defense:
* Although some teams may designate one defender
to pick up the stray dogs, it would usually be a team
with a legit ” rim protector ” … think: Deke or Tree Rollins.
Most teams have a Defensive principle of:
** if your man is two passes away / be in Help position.
note – very rudimentary eplanation.
_____________________________________________
Al was timid about shooting last eve – No Doubt.
Numerous times passing up an inside shot to a perimeter shooter.
_____________________________________________
I`m not sure if a help defender should have his wgt on the balls of his ft ?
I`m am certain he should not be flat footed !
However;
A defender uses the inside of his legs to push.
Agony on the groin muscle when one is playing in correct stance.
“doc” would need to give an anotomy lesson about wgt distribution
all the way to the feet.
A defender also needs to be able to go backward as easily as forward.
Also a staggered stance is advisable.
Active or live feet are a must;
in supplement to slimjr`s assertation.
Grandad
December 19th, 2012
5:34 pm
I`m not real certain what anotomy is ?
Grandad
December 19th, 2012
5:37 pm
slimjr
fact:
knees bent, hands ready, eyes open [on ball]
Rod from College Park
December 19th, 2012
6:00 pm
“This is an open blog..what one says to one could be responded by others…”
Correct, but when you put a person’s name in your response, you are taking to that person. If it was meant for anyone to respond, I would not have addressed it to one person.
Najeh Davenpoop
December 19th, 2012
6:06 pm
“Najeh is just being stubborn. He is one of those fantasy guys also. PER is a fantasy stat. What would someone do if……. I don’t live in that world.”
I never even mentioned PER. I am not talking about “what would someone do if”. I am talking about what Lou actually does per minute vs. what Jamal actually does per minute. I suppose you also think Bibby was better than Teague in 2011 because his per-game stats were better.
SteveW
December 19th, 2012
6:11 pm
AJ – Teagues lack of consistency is his lack of skill. A guy a notch up on the skill set doesn’t have to get up for a particular opponent, or play down to the level of competition. Teagues good, not great. Improving. I look at his assists, turnovers and D way more than I look at his shots.
Najeh Davenpoop
December 19th, 2012
6:15 pm
“I have explained that there is a difference between actual stats and “Per 36 Minutes” stats. “Per 36 Minutes” are projected stats based on actual stats and “Per 36 Minutes” are also an “assumption” of what a player would “produce” (statistically) if that player averaged (or logged) 36 minutes per game. If a player gets the opportunity to play or log more minutes per game, that does not (or may not) necessarily mean that player will produce more (statistically) per game. This concept/idea involves “the law of diminishing returns.””
All of this is 100% correct. But it still has nothing to do with the fact that Jamal plays more minutes than Lou and thus has more of an opportunity to get to the free throw line. When your opportunities are greater, your production will be greater. Michael Turner has run for more yards than Jacquizz Rodgers — is he better than Quizz? No, he just gets more carries. Morgan Freeman has probably had more sex than Justin Bieber — do girls think he’s more attractive? No, he has just lived longer. Jamal’s free throw attempts are almost equal to Lou’s — does he get to the line as well? No, he just plays more minutes. All per-minute stats do is adjust for a player who has played more minutes than another player.
It is fair to bring up diminishing returns when you are talking about two players who play drastically different roles. Last year, for example, northcyde often used to bring up per-36 stats to compare Marvin and Jamal. He was wrong because Marvin’s role is dramatically different from Jamal’s and Marvin tends to shoot a lot more open shots that are created by others, while Jamal tends to shoot more contested shots that he creates. So saying that Marvin would maintain the same percentages with an expanded role isn’t accurate.
Lou, on the other hand, plays the exact same role as Jamal. His responsibilities and general skill set are extremely similar, and the percentage of his shots that he creates and that are contested are likely quite similar to Jamal. So it is a lot more believable to say that Lou, if given the five extra minutes per game that Jamal gets, would correspondingly increase his free throw attempts as well.
MattP
December 19th, 2012
6:19 pm
Hawks coach Larry Drew says there is “strong possibility” rookie John Jenkins will play vs. Thunder. #ATLHawks
Wow this coach is so clueless. Jenkins gets a DNP against the Wizards, which would have been a better matchup for him. Now he will probably play against Martin on the best team in the NBA.
Najeh Davenpoop
December 19th, 2012
6:24 pm
“Jamal plays more minutes because he is more explosive. ”
“Marvin Williams always had good PER numbers, and he is a bum.”
Haha. OK. One little problem with these two statements: Marvin has played more minutes than Lou every single year of his career, including this one. So is Marvin playing more minutes than Lou because he is more explosive? Or is Lou a bum?
The funny thing is that my opinion of Jamal and Lou is almost exactly the same as yours. But for some reason, any time anyone mentions a stat that you or High-Sider doesn’t understand, you automatically think they are full of sh-t. You two remind me a lot of the Republicans who didn’t believe Nate Silver’s projections until the election was over. Just because you don’t understand something doesn’t mean it doesn’t have value when placed in the right context.
Najeh Davenpoop
December 19th, 2012
6:31 pm
And just to clarify, John Hollinger’s PER stat is completely, totally different from per-minute numbers. PER involves some complex formula that Hollinger made up. I have said repeatedly in the past that for a variety of reasons I don’t give two sh-ts about PER. Per-minute stats on the other hand are just what a player does per minute. If a player plays 10 minutes in a game and gets 40 rebounds, he is getting 4 rebounds per minute and 40 rebounds per game. If a player plays 40 minutes in a game and gets 40 rebounds, he is getting 1 rebound per minute and 40 rebounds per game. If you use per game stats, it would seem like both are equally good at rebounding. If you use per-minute stats, it becomes clear that the first player is 4 times better at rebounding than the second player.
Rod from College Park
December 19th, 2012
6:36 pm
“I never even mentioned PER. I am not talking about “what would someone do if”. I am talking about what Lou actually does per minute vs. what Jamal actually does per minute.”
Lou Williams per 36 min playoff career- 5.4
Jamal Crawford per 36 min playoff career- 5.5
So let me get this straight since I am not as smart as you. Does this mean, that when the game means the most, when you make your bones as a basketball player in the NBA, Jamal gets to the line more than Lou? Would I be correct? I was an athlete, did not play fantasy sports. Am I reading the data correctly? LOL.
“But for some reason, any time anyone mentions a stat that you or High-Sider doesn’t understand, you automatically think they are full of sh-t.”
Never that. I totally respect your’s or anyone else opinions if they as speaking the truth. You usually do, but you are off on this one. Just my opinion.
Najeh Davenpoop
December 19th, 2012
6:44 pm
“If LouWill avgs more attempts per game (3.7 vs. 3.4), while playing on average 5 less minutes per game, then Lou obviously gets to the line at a higher “rate” than Jamal. The key word being “rate”, which implies an average over a period of time (minute perhaps) or event (game perhaps).”
(emphasis added)
This is exactly 100% of my point. The only reason I ever brought up per minute stats is that they highlight the fact that Lou plays less than Jamal. That’s it. Somehow, bringing up this point turns these into “theoretical stats” or whatever.
I get the feeling if I had used the exact same per-minute stats to say something positive about Jamal, Rod and High-sider would be co-signing me.