Atlanta Hawks: Roster breakdown
Vivlamore reporting from Hawks practice. Here is the roster breakdown story for Tuesday’s print edition of the AJC.
Less than a week remains before NBA rosters must be trimmed to a maximum of 15 players by Monday. The Hawks brought 19 players into training camp and the roster now stands at one over the limit. It is possible the team will go into the regular season with fewer than the maximum, allowing management flexibility to make an early-season trade or signing.
Here is a look at how the roster is shaping up prior to the Nov. 2 regular-season opener.
Roster size
The Hawks will have at least 13 players on their roster. Only 13 will be active for games. They have guaranteed contracts with 11 veterans and first-round draft pick John Jenkins. Second-round pick Mike Scott has a partially guaranteed contract. His contract becomes fully guaranteed if he is still on the roster Jan. 10.
Of keeping all 13 guarantees on the roster head coach Larry Drew said, “That is pretty set.”
Drew said he and general manager Danny Ferry have yet to decide on how many players they will keep.
“For me, and I’ve done it both ways,” Drew said of staying at or below the maximum. “We’ve had 13 and we’ve kept two spots open. I’ve had 14 and we’ve kept one. Or we’ve kept 15 guys. It’s a matter of looking at what we feel is going to be the best for our club. We’ve got some guys in here who are fighting for a roster spot. Guys I really like. After this is all said and done we’ll sit down with management and make a decision.”
Three for one
If the Hawks keep 15 players that leaves Anthony Tolliver, Damion James and James Anderson competing for the two remaining spots. Tolliver (6-foot-8) and James (6-7) give the Hawks options at the forward position. Anderson (6-6) is a guard, a position the Hawks have depth. Defensive ability, and how quickly each learns schemes, may well decide who stays.
Stepping up
James has impressed with his play during exhibition games. He has appeared in five games, including two starts, and has averaged 7.4 points and 7.0 rebounds. He came off the bench in Saturday’s win over Dallas and had 10 points and seven rebounds in less than 17 minutes.
“I think I’ve been doing pretty good the whole preseason,” James said. “I’m going to continue to play the way I play. If you play the way you are supposed to play, good things will happen.”
In six exhibitions, Tolliver has averaged 8.0 points and 3.7 rebounds. Anderson, in five games, has averaged 1.8 points and 0.8 rebounds.
Going small
In the numerous offseason moves made by Ferry, the Hawks became a smaller team than in the recent past. It’s an issue, especially on the defensive end, that the team will have to overcome.
“We might just be a little undersized,” Josh Smith said. “We were undersized before but we are very undersized now. That shouldn’t be an issue. We have a lot of feisty and competitive people on this team who hate to lose. I think that will outweigh the so-called decreases that this team has.”
Guards
The Hawks consider their three speedy guards, all capable of playing the point, an asset. Jeff Teague returns with Devin Harris and Lou Williams added to the mix. Harris and Williams, and perhaps eventually Teague, can also play shooting guard. Each are an option to replace Joe Johnson.
The Hawks added a number of long-range shooters at the position in Kyle Korver, DeShawn Stevenson, Anthony Morrow and Jenkins.
Forwards
Smith will return as the power forward. Ivan Johnson and Scott will be backups. Johnson can play center if pressed into action. Korver and Stevenson may see time at small forward.
“That gives us some flexibility from the standpoint that if we need to adapt and make some minor adjustments with our lineup we have the ability to do that,” Drew said.
Centers
A healthy Al Horford will start at center. He will be backed up by Zaza Pachulia and Johan Petro. There will be times when Drew wants a bigger lineup that Pachulia will play center, Horford power forward and Smith small forward.
Bench
The starting lineup is to be determined at shooting guard and small forward. It appears that Harris and Stevenson will initially fill those positions based on exhibition games. However, Drew stresses no decisions have been made and the lineup likely will change based on matchups.
The coach said he will sit down with each player this week to discuss his role. He wants to avoid any confusion.
“So everybody will be clear,” Drew said. “So there won’t be any guess work about ‘What am I supposed to do? What do you want me to do?’ We’ll eliminate that.”
- Chris Vivlamore
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310 comments Add your comment
Chris Vivlamore
October 22nd, 2012
2:21 pm
Quick practice update: The Hawks held a non-contact practice Monday by just working on offensive sets. LD would not say which, if any, of the injured players would play in Friday’s exhibition finale.
ag
October 22nd, 2012
2:39 pm
first
Sam
October 22nd, 2012
2:49 pm
Second.
The Truth
October 22nd, 2012
3:07 pm
“As I’ve said going into this preseason, my main focus was to really see what kind of combinations we can put out there and be effective,” Drew said. “We’ve gone with DeShawn at 3. I like that. We’ve gone with Kyle at the 3. I like that. We’ve gone with Josh at some 3. I like that.” – LD
These comments from LD can be summed-up in 2 words, “playing politics” with his roster. LD infatuation for DeShawn and Korver haven’t matched their preseason performances. But I’m surprise as this has been a pattern throughout his HC coaching with the Hawks.
With the exception of the Heat game in which LBJ was mostly preoccupied thinking about his China trip; DeShawn has been DNP or played subpar. Korver also has played subpar to OK but nothing outstanding. So why is LD loving these to two players at the SF position? With a preseason record of 3-3, what exactly is he seeing that we bloggers are not about these players at SF? I submit LD has been building a case all along to do what he as already made-up in his mind to do, cut bait with certain players regardless of how well they’ve been playing.
Despite the fact that LD has given Tolliver 14 more minutes of PT over James during these preseason games even though James has still outperformed Tolliver in the critical areas that matters must to the Hawks; defense and rebounding. Even if you consider the offense production of both players, the idea that Tolliver is a better offensive option is also untrue. The 6 games Tolliver has played, he’s average 8 pts/gm compared to 5 games James has played and averaged 7.4 pts/gm; nearly the same. To sum this up, James has nearly matched Tolliver scoring production given fewer minutes.
Even more impressive for James, however; he’s far exceeded Tolliver in rebounding at 7 RB/gm vs. Tolliver 3.6 RB/gm. He’s also double assist at 2/gm compared to Tolliver’s 1/gm. His trips to the FT line are at a higher rate 11-13 compared to Tolliver 4-6. To sum this up, James is better overall and considering these other factors would make his teammates around him better if he’s in the lineup more so than Tolliver.
However, Tolliver has shined with his 3-pt shooting at 57% and his FG at 52% compared to James FG % at 42%. James has not attempted a 3-pt shot. But surely these two factors alone shouldn’t favor Tolliver over James. Especially given our redundancy at the PF position, it would seem Tolliver is more expendable than James.
But my guess is that LD is not seeing the obvious and he is just overly in love with Tolliver’s 3-ball. If it plays out that James is cut over Tolliver, it will be an outrage. Either they are both cut (which would be senseless) or they are both retained (the best option). Any other options are unacceptable. No amount of double-talking is going to convince Hawksville otherwise.
Section 303
October 22nd, 2012
3:08 pm
I could see the starting lineup being fluid at shooting guard. Harris and Stevensen will probably both start games this year at the 2.
I like Stephensen a lot. Tough player…we need more guys like that. He still has this year and next on his contract, correct?
Section 303
October 22nd, 2012
3:08 pm
Also, finalized plans to see the Hawks play the Nets, in Brooklyn on Sunday, March 17. Already looking forward to that trip.
The Truth
October 22nd, 2012
3:09 pm
“But I’m not surprise as this has been a pattern throughout his HC coaching with the Hawks”
cp
October 22nd, 2012
3:20 pm
I have to agree with you Truth. I said that after watching a few games that James should be the starter at sf. I know some on here love Stevenson’s attitude but im more about production and James has been better. I usually just ignore whatever LD says because he has shown to do the complete opposite of whatever he says. I think they should keep James and Tolliver and cut Anderson. James should be the starter because we need a guy who plays defense and rebounds.
The Truth
October 22nd, 2012
3:25 pm
“So everybody will be clear,” Drew said. “So there won’t be any guess work about ‘What am I supposed to do? What do you want me to do?’ We’ll eliminate that.”
LOL, Petro must have induce this comment quoting him frustrated in the previous article from C-V
Ra'mon
October 22nd, 2012
3:29 pm
If LD doesn’t start James, there will be a few GMs calling Ferry to see if they can acquire James for a 2nd round pick or so. They will try to get James in a steal of a deal, because their head coach RECOGNIZES the players who should get significant playing time.
TIP
October 22nd, 2012
3:38 pm
I hope Harris starts. Teague is solid but he is weak/ average in finishing at the rim and he hasn’t shown me that he can lead a team at a high level, especially in the half court.
Grandad
October 22nd, 2012
3:51 pm
No guesswork … that`s a new one;
edict from Mr Ferry no doubt.
Surely, DFerry will not abide with LD cutting DJames.
Sam
October 22nd, 2012
3:57 pm
More about Damion James!! Wait til the season starts and he is averaging 3 points and 2 rebounds in 8 minutes off the bench. None of you will be shouting about how he needs to be in the starting lineup then. I take that back, everyone will be blaming it on Horford, Smith, or Drew at that point saying James is just not “getting opportunities”. You guys make it out like he is the next Scottie Pippen.
MsDee
October 22nd, 2012
4:00 pm
CV,
If you get the opportunity again to talk with Drew, could u ask him about his feelings on Damion James? If he won’t say much, just inform him on how much us Hawks fans would just LOVE to see him on the team. He is such a hustler and tough rebounder that it would just be hard to not see him on this team. Let him know that both James and Ivan are fans favorites here so do not disappoint us..thx!!
MsDee
October 22nd, 2012
4:04 pm
So Sam, who do u suppose should fill in at SF if not Damion James?????
MsDee
October 22nd, 2012
4:09 pm
Sam,
Averaging 3 points and 2 rebounds in 8 minutes is actually good. Now if he is averaging those numbers in 15 min or so, then u have a case.
MsDee
October 22nd, 2012
4:12 pm
Marc J. Spears: Free agent guard Gilbert Arenas is close to signing a one-year deal in China with the Guandong Southern Tigers, a source told Yahoo! Sports. Twitter @SpearsNBAYahoo
Is China the new NBA for the tired players of old??
myrak43
October 22nd, 2012
4:22 pm
17th
Roy Kittles
October 22nd, 2012
4:23 pm
With the way the hawks are constructed James is a must. Korver will get ate up by the pierce’s and lebrons, and any other decent SF. I like Stevenson but James is younger and hungrier. Besides I think the hawks have enough jump shooters.
myrak43
October 22nd, 2012
4:23 pm
I have never had a 1st post.
myrak43
October 22nd, 2012
4:25 pm
I have yet to see any of the Hawks preseason games….. for those of you that have, do you think that Scott can play SF?
Astro Joe
October 22nd, 2012
4:36 pm
While James has earned a starting spot, I’m not sure if it makes that much difference if he is the starting SF in November or in mid-December. My guess is that this will be an ongoing process to set rotations including the starting line-up.
Astro Joe
October 22nd, 2012
4:39 pm
And I’ll add this, starting Damion James in the fierst game of the season or starting James in game #20 of the season won’t make much difference in this team’s overall fortunes. If they need to highlight guys like Moprrow, Korver or DeShawn to try and get them traded for more than stale bags of chips, so be it. Let’s not lose sight of the ultimate goal… more assets in July to build a REAL team. This season’s results are discretionary.
Just Joe
October 22nd, 2012
4:40 pm
I don’t see Scott playing much SF. He’s already struggling with defensive positioning & footwork, and that’s against usually bigger, slower PF’s (comparing to SF’s). Scott needs to hit the boards harder and keep working on his defense. I think he’s a natural scorer whether inside or outside, he just has to stop giving the points back on the other end.
D. Ransby
October 22nd, 2012
4:48 pm
@myrak43 No he can’t. He lacks the lateral agility to keep up with other small forwards. He needs a lot of work on defense, but has a good upside. Offensively, he can hit any shot on the floor. He can shoot 3’s and finish at the rim. Very efficient, takes advantage of slower PFs. Needs to work on rebounding, but he is looking like a steal in the second. If he can up his defensive ability, he definitely can be an asset…
MsDee
October 22nd, 2012
4:50 pm
myrak43,
I went to the Dallas game and NO, Scott cant play SF even though he dominated that game with 17pts!
MsDee
October 22nd, 2012
4:53 pm
myrak43,
In other words, Scott would be the PREFECT SF if u could combine his offense with Marvin’s defense
MsDee
October 22nd, 2012
4:54 pm
Or should I have said Marvin would have been the prefect SF if u combine his defense with Scott’s offense
The Truth
October 22nd, 2012
5:04 pm
“I have yet to see any of the Hawks preseason games….. for those of you that have, do you think that Scott can play SF?”
The rookie Scott has publicly express how challenging it is to play defense in the NBA. Given that he has made his mark in college playing PF, I would expect him switching position would be become a burden and might farther delay his maturation. He also previously mentioned his preference for playing PF meaning that is what he wants to play. Danny Ferry has publicly echoed the same sentiments.
In reviewing his pre-draft workout compared to Tolliver:
Scott (weighs 241 lbs) sprints at 3.44 with 11.59 agility vs. Tolliver (weighs 242 lbs) sprints @ 3.29 with 11.49 agility.
The verdict: Though they both are about the same weight, Tolliver is actually faster and slightly more agile than Scott suggesting he’s better able to guard SFs as compared to Scott.
But Damion James who weighs 224 lbs, sprints at 3.09 with a 11.23 agility beats them both.
MattP
October 22nd, 2012
5:23 pm
Teague has alot of work to do if he wants to keep his starting spot. Both Harris and Williams looked good driving and making plays for their teammates.
Jerry Glanville
October 22nd, 2012
5:24 pm
I am not really comfortable with Johan Petro backing up at the 5. I think that K. Benson would have been more of a presence on both sides of the ball. W
Jerry Glanville
October 22nd, 2012
5:26 pm
I am not comfortable with our backups at the 5 position. There may still be guys out there who can give us more than Johan Petro and Pachulia?
vava74
October 22nd, 2012
5:31 pm
http://sports.yahoo.com/news/nba–dwight-howard-s-lakers-debut-begins-with-honest-intro-from-kobe-bryant-22482109.html
Excellent piece illustrating the attraction of LA and the Lakers. That’s why we didn’t stand a chance – EVER – in signing Howard.
vava74
October 22nd, 2012
5:32 pm
The Truth,
Excellent post!!
MattP
October 22nd, 2012
5:34 pm
Jerry,
No one is comfortable with Petro, he actually makes me want Collins back. I think Drew will be playing Ivan at backup center a good bit like last year. I do wish they would have bought out Petro and keep Benson. Really disappointing to see Benson the first to go.
ntrigue
October 22nd, 2012
5:50 pm
It will be a tragedy if we release James we already messed up when we cut Benson! CV when you talk to LD ask him how he feels about adding James to the starting lineup. Thanks
Runner-
October 22nd, 2012
5:56 pm
We keep talking about our undersized guards, but what about the lack of size at center? We don’t have Collins anymore so either Petro, Zaza, or Josh will have to guard the bigger centers this year. Don’t know how much I like any of those options
vava74
October 22nd, 2012
6:02 pm
Zaza did a fine job last year. No reason to doubt he won’t do it again.
ag
October 22nd, 2012
6:11 pm
Against Dallas, LD put Ivan at center. Petro only played the last six minutes. That was really odd because ZaZa was hurt and Horford did not start the second half. Actually I guess Josh started the second half at center.
steven a smith
October 22nd, 2012
6:15 pm
I just do not believe we will move ahead of Indiana or Boston because of our poor frontcourt play.
Boston, Indiana, NewYork, and Miami, all have superior frontcourts to ours!!!
heartofdarkness
October 22nd, 2012
6:17 pm
This team will be competitive if they bring back the four corners.
Hawkfan
October 22nd, 2012
6:20 pm
Ivan can guard centers as well
darrell starks
October 22nd, 2012
6:24 pm
Like i said before if Josh starte at PF and Horford starte Center, look for the Hawks win no more than 35 games this year, it’s was a little okay last 4 year because of Joe 6′7 and Marvin 6′9 playing solid perimeter defense but it’s totally different this year.
LD still is clueless as a coach.
GO HAWKS!!!!!!!!!!!!!
darrell starks
October 22nd, 2012
6:26 pm
Hawks can make a different in this year season only if LD understand basketball.
GO HAWKS!!!!!!!!!!!!
ag
October 22nd, 2012
6:43 pm
DS – I think you are overrating both Marvin and Joe’s defense. Although Marvin would check the Durants and the LBJ’s, they still got their 30 and most nights LBJ got his 40. I watched JR in Denver wear JJ out.
Just looking at the preseason so far, Teague/Harris backcourt is great, but cannot put another guard out there. What about Scott at PF and Josh at SF? So many combinations. I really like James because he rebounds the ball very well.
doc
October 22nd, 2012
6:49 pm
vava, again lakers in last 68 yrs have been to their div championship 31 times. the last 17 wcf have brought them 15 rings. that is huge. thereby, the greatest sports franchise in the world. only in the nba as well could it be accomplished. it is why those that hunger for the ring as the only raison d’etre to crown any franchise as whole, is chasing fools gold.
no, we were never in the running. stern was involved in the process to make sure it happened is my guess. hollywood baby! the only franchise in sports out there, displacing the dodgers in my lifetime and with no football competition, also in my lifetime.
Ken Strickland
October 22nd, 2012
6:59 pm
No one has had a better camp and exhibition season than DJames. I don’t know if Drew is throwing everyone a curve or not by not mentioning James as a potential starter. He might feel the need to keep him hungry, and see how he reacts to the uncertainty. There’s no other SF candidate, other than Josh, that can match his rebounding and DEF prowess at the position.
Starting anyone else at SF will definitely put undue pressure on Horford and Josh defensively and rebounding wise. We can’t run consistently if we can’t rebound consistently, and every frontline player has to contribute. Let’s not forget that Stevenson grossly underperformed accross the board last yr while primarily playing SF.
Korver is a DEF and rebounding liability, while Morrow, to a lesser degree, falls into the same category at SF. It just might all be a smoke screen by LDrew. He could be telling everyone what he thinks they want to hear by emphasing DEF and rebounding, but his focus could be exclusively on OFF production.
ag
October 22nd, 2012
7:00 pm
Not really impressed with Stevenson. Would like a way to get Benson back. He played less than Petro and did better in 1 game in much fewer minutes.
Jerry Glanville
October 22nd, 2012
7:35 pm
I hope Stevenson is inactive. I hope we start the season with Damion James at the 3 and Josh at the 4. Please bring keith benson back gm.
BasketballTopFan
October 22nd, 2012
7:40 pm
Basketball Top Fan and basketball fans worldwide anxiously await the the start of the 2012 National Basketball Association (NBA) season !!!
We wish the Atlanta Hawks the best of luck and success.
BasketballTopFan@Yahoo.com
Jerry Glanville
October 22nd, 2012
7:42 pm
@STEVEN A SMITH
I just do not believe we will move ahead of Indiana or Boston because of our poor frontcourt play.
Boston, Indiana, NewYork, and Miami, all have superior frontcourts to ours!!!
get back on your meds. bro. Our center is better than Tyson Chandler, Kevin Garnett, Roy Hibbert, or Chris Bosh. Get a clue steven a. Al is a 2-time nba allstar.
Big Ray
October 22nd, 2012
7:54 pm
stephen a. smith ,
Boston’s frontcourt is unquestionably better than ours because of Garnett and Pierce, two long-time multiple all-star players are stars overall. Both are former superstars and have every single piece of the puzzle in place to STILL beat most frontcourt opponents.
As far as Indiana goes, it’s all about who they have playing SF vs. who WE have at SF. They can go with Paul George or Danny Granger. We could barely match that in the past, definitely can’t do it now.
Otherwise, do you really believe that Hibbert/West > Horford/Smith? I don’t.
Grandad
October 22nd, 2012
7:57 pm
-two items-
(1st) The Lakers were evidently doin` something right in Minny.
Seriously how many of those Chmpnships came in Minny ?
” The mikan era ”
(2nd) For those still pining over Benson;
I just do not see why.
” saying “we already messed up once ”
Benson was not physical enough to be as deficient in skill
as he was – case closed. *[he could block a shot now & then] thats it.
ctrim
October 22nd, 2012
8:03 pm
Benson is still a long term project and we have too many guaranteed contracts on our Team to keep him. Next year could be a different story since I believe we only have Al and Lou signed beyond this year. We have a lot of very talented individuals playing in their last year of a contract – dont underestimate the power of motivation. Anderson is the logical choice to be cut but we’ve seen stranger things before. Trust Ferry will make the right player/coaching changes necessary.
Big Ray
October 22nd, 2012
8:05 pm
get back on your meds. bro. Our center is better than Tyson Chandler, Kevin Garnett, Roy Hibbert, or Chris Bosh. Get a clue steven a. Al is a 2-time nba allstar.
I’d argue that Garnett is better. Even at his age, with the miles he has on his body. He’s still better.
As for everybody else…
Bosh is a stretch 4, can’t play the 5. But if I’m choosing one or the other to be my PF, it’s also gonna depend on what kind of team I have. If you want a defender/help rebounder, go with Horford. If you want a rebounder and reliable scorer, go with Bosh.
If you have a legit “big guy” at center who can hold his own at that spot and doesn’t need to be rotated over to PF so that you can have a bigger lineup….then give me Bosh all day long. He’s a more complete package than Horford on offense…scores inside, scores outside…but you’ll need that defensive stalwart at center because Bosh is a punk for the most part on that side of the ball.
Hibbert…he has the legit size, but again, what’s the makeup of the team. Go back and look at the matchups since Hibbert came into the League. He might have the “right” size, but Horford has eaten his lunch almost every time we’ve played Indy (can’t count last year, Horford was out most of it). It ain’t the center position that helps Indy hurt us. It’s the 2 and 3 spots.
Artman
October 22nd, 2012
8:06 pm
It’s refreshing to read the blog and actually read consistent intelligent posts. It is as if someone who continually makes ignorant posts has not commented yet. Who could that be?
Hawks93
October 22nd, 2012
8:08 pm
GO HAWKS! If you love basketball and Josh Smith then visit my website at http://www.bballfan4life.com
Hawks93
October 22nd, 2012
8:13 pm
We’re going places this year! Josh is a great leader and no with iso Joe gone we can play team basketball. With Josh and Al as the two “bash brothers” down low in the post and all the shooters we have now we can move the rock and get lots of open looks. I believe we are going places this year. And Josh will step up to become the leader he is ment to be
PD
October 22nd, 2012
8:26 pm
Damion James can’t shoot the 3. So there will be no driving lanes for Al and Josh
steven a smith
October 22nd, 2012
8:30 pm
I would love to see the Hawks do someting “un-Hawk like” and go after say Mehemet Okur, 6″11″ 260lbs. If healthy, he can make a difference. 20-25 minutes per night? I would be willing to move Petro or Steveson to make room for this guy.
Grandad
October 22nd, 2012
8:42 pm
Response … from last eve … / -&- / … Slimjr !
Please note that I`m not arguing nor debating Slim.
When I said that LD should hold Josh accountable on defense;
I was not necessarily promoting Josh to play the [3] pos.
As most of you know – I`m `anti-position’ anyway;
when it comes to predetermining [1 - 5].
Offensively, motion / Princeton offense lends itself to this concept.
Defensively, I am even more opposed, due to `match-ups’.
Exp:
LBJ is a [4] … therefore who should guard him ?
Everyone says KKorv cannot, to which I agree.
I might also add … there are not many that *can* guard LBJ.
1st let me speak about Josh as a defender – in honest terms:
Josh for all practical purposes plays zone …..
until the opponent gets to the rim;;
then Josh slides over and attempts to block his shot.
-note-
He is successful at this less than two times per game.
-side note-
Given, he also alters another one or two per game occasionally.
Josh is -not- an above avg on the ball defender;
I would actually say he is below avg.
Off the ball he blcks shots and collects steals by –
*shooting the gaps / *playing the passing lanes [gambling].
Now back to why I made the original statement:
” LD needs to hold Josh accountable defensively “;;
If Josh wishes to be this SuperStar / All-Star that he and others
have sought and predicted, then he Must become an all `round Star.
-Not- just a shot-blkr, but a defensive stopper,
one who can guard LBJ, Melo [a post up small forward], KD & others.
***** multidimensional ***** on defense !
LeBron does it – yes – LeBron cannot foul out.
You are also correct, LD cannot adhere to the inane two foul rule.
Josh can be so much more [on defense].
He can be a game changer.
He can be the pt man when we play pressure (press / trap / zone).
Those are the concepts in which I was speaking.
I don`t even think LD knows what he has in Josh.
-Grandad speaks-
Big Ray
October 22nd, 2012
9:02 pm
I would love to see the Hawks do someting “un-Hawk like” and go after say Mehemet Okur, 6″11″ 260lbs. If healthy, he can make a difference. 20-25 minutes per night? I would be willing to move Petro or Steveson to make room for this guy.
Not knowing how much gas is left in the tank, that might be a solid move.
Okur actually has some defensive capability and can, of course, light it up from the outside. But where is the guy? Last I knew, he wasn’t even in the NBA…might just be a FA.
We could sign him, but I’m betting it’s too late to get any use out of him. That’s how it always goes for us. We sign guys when they’re just about past meaningful contributions….and then we have a head coach that doesn’t know how to use them…
Big Ray
October 22nd, 2012
9:03 pm
Grandad ,
There’s a LOT LD doesn’t know. He does know how to submarine the guy he’s working for (just ask dumba$$ Woody), though. Another reason for Ferry to jettison him after this season.
steven a smith
October 22nd, 2012
9:06 pm
Big Ray
October 22nd, 2012
9:02 pm
Agree. I thought LD under used and mis-used Tracy McGrady and Ivan Johnson, esp Tracy, all season long.
Buddy Grizzard
October 22nd, 2012
9:17 pm
“This statement encompasses everything wrong with judging players solely on stats. I’d rather have Dampier when he’s 60 years old than Petro now.”
Agree with this 100%. If you go back through my blog you will see where I made the statement that based on his PER, Petro was a clear upgrade over Collins and Dampier. All it took was one preseason game to see how bad Petro is compared to those guys. Collins and Damp did their damage on a #5 seed. Petro helped New Jersey miss the playoffs as he tried to replace Brook Lopez.
I will never use PER to make a value judgement on a player again. It also completely over-inflated the value of Willie Green and Jannero Pargo. Never again… I am done with PER. I was wrong to ever make reference to it.
Just Joe
October 22nd, 2012
9:32 pm
Hawks may want to watch Daniel Orton up in OKC. Hawks were high on him in the 2010 draft. He just turned 22, and probably won’t stick with the Thunder. He’s got the Kendrick Perkins build. 6′10″ with broad shoulders and long arms. 7′4.25″ wingspan. 9′2.5″ standing reach. I’d rather work with this kid than waste time with Petro.
Another guy to watch as rosters trim down is Dexter Pittman down in Miami. Damion James’ former teammate at Texas.
doc
October 22nd, 2012
9:32 pm
grandad on the lakers.
mikan was a stud and yes they were strong in minny but the 15/17 was from about 1980. huge numbers there, just huge. i posted the exact resukts last week.
they left minny by mid 60’s is my guess, even before the boston run started. hard to believe the hawks were probably the second best team of the late fifties and sixties but were out done by boston and the russell era. yes auerbach in there but russell got one as a player/head coach, too.
i think i would take chandler over al horford for equal dollars, there are very few better than chandler out there to compete against, so i can be happy with al h.
doc
October 22nd, 2012
9:35 pm
buddy g, i still like the eyeball test first, then data next to look for correlations.
Buddy Grizzard
October 22nd, 2012
9:42 pm
“We have a lot of feisty and competitive people on this team who hate to lose.”
Once again, Smoove cuts to the heart of the matter. Marvin and Joe were not bothered by losing in elimination games. They both looked like they couldn’t wait to go play golf. This is addition by subtraction.
Ken Strickland
October 22nd, 2012
10:08 pm
At this point it looks like Drew will wait until after our final exhibition gm to make his final cut(s) and reveal who will start at SF and SG. I think he and his staff have already made the decision on who will start at SF and SG. It could very well be that his failure to mention James as a potential starter could be an indication that he’s the leading candidate.
That’s what he would do if he’s trying to keep everyone off balance, which he’s definitely been known to do. During this exhibition season, no other SF candidate has given us more of what we need most along our frontline(rebounding and DEF) than Damien James.
Ken Strickland
October 22nd, 2012
10:11 pm
JUST JOE-If we carry fewer than 15 players on our overall roster, it could mean Ferry intends to look at players just like the 2 you’ve mentioned if they are released.
steven a smith
October 22nd, 2012
10:22 pm
In signing a strectch “5″ like Okur. He would could pull the best rebounder/shot blocker on the opposing team out near the three point line consequently opening up more scoring lanes for our slashers. We will have to win using the Dallas Maverick “template” for a championship team!
i_am_soulstar
October 22nd, 2012
10:52 pm
lol @ Mutt Rumney
Big Ray
October 22nd, 2012
11:00 pm
Buddy G ,
LOL….well I see YOU cut right to the heart of the matter as well. I was thinking something VERY similar when I read that statement by Josh. Good stuff, man…
Big Ray
October 22nd, 2012
11:00 pm
If nothing else, the Troll can come up with more names to post under than Dr. Seuss….
Ken Strickland
October 22nd, 2012
11:20 pm
BIG RAY-This/these ANAL(S) definitely doesn’t seem to have any problem coming up with new names, but he definitely has serious problems coming up with an intelligent comment or a different topic. He/she/it obviously thinks that coming up with different names equates to coming up with different comments or topics.
Instead of building more jails and stadiums, we need to build more mental institutions to house some of the more DISTURBED SPORT LOVING ANAL MINDED MORONS that frequent these blogs.
Ken Strickland
October 22nd, 2012
11:35 pm
BUDDY GRIZZARD-Josh’s comments about attitudes just might be the main reason he immediately changed his mind about wanting to be traded after the JJ and Marvin trades. This could be yet another reason this yrs team with be better than any team we’ve had in over a decade.
Big Ray
October 22nd, 2012
11:41 pm
Ken S ,
You made me laugh, I gotta say.
Ken Strickland
October 22nd, 2012
11:50 pm
TT ROMNEY(or whoever your dumbass name is)-Your response to my 11:20pm post shows you definitely identify yourself as one of the ANAL MINDED MORONS that’s in need of being institutionalized.
Rod from College Park
October 22nd, 2012
11:54 pm
“I will never use PER to make a value judgement on a player again. It also completely over-inflated the value of Willie Green and Jannero Pargo. Never again… I am done with PER. I was wrong to ever make reference to it.”
Wonder who told you that PER stuff was nonsense?
Slimjr
October 23rd, 2012
12:00 am
This is what Grandad has been preaching for a while now.. For you Grandad:
Embracing The Positional Revolution
Tom Ley
“This morning, ESPN’s Tom Haberstroh published a piece about the evolution of the Miami Heat, and it looks like this year’s Heat team is not only going to be a frightening opponent for the rest of the NBA, but also incredibly fun to watch. Why? Because the team has finally embraced its versatility and eschewed the idea of traditional positions. From ESPN:
Spoelstra no longer uses positions to designate his players. Instead, he uses initials of players’ names on his diagrams and assigns players to five spots on the floor for his go-to sets: a single man in the post, two in the corners and two in the wings.
In practice this preseason, the Heat will run their sets over and over before Spoelstra shouts “switch up” and the players play their own version of musical chairs, rotating from spot to spot. Wade replaces Bosh in the post, and Bosh goes to the top of the key, where he can take opposing centers off the dribble. Battier heads to the corner while Allen goes to the wing.
Switch up again. James goes to the block and Wade heads to the corner, where he cuts to the rim. Bosh heads to the corner, where he has developed a sharper 3-point shot. Again and again.
Ball handlers. Post guys. Screeners. Perimeter shooters. Cutters. All parts are interchangeable.
This is fantastic news. Abandoning conventional positions is something that’s been talked about by NBA writers for years now, but no team has ever had the collection of players necessary to fully commit to such a free-wheeling philosophy. The Heat, however, have LeBron James. It’s because of his ability to play every spot on the floor at an elite level that other guys can be freed up to play in unconventional ways.
What this means is that we will see a lot fewer Heat lineups featuring the plodding Joel Anthony or half-competent Mario Chalmers, and a lot more that feature the team’s five best players on the court at the same time, running free and playing without limits. Though we can’t help noticing that the switches in ESPN’s theoretical breakdown didn’t include Ray Allen operating down on the block or Udonis Haslem spotting up for a three. Still, we should expect to see a variety of roles within the lineup.
Now, try to imagine Chris Bosh standing at the high post and feeding a posted-up LeBron James, who immediately dishes the ball to a cutting Dwyane Wade, who kicks it out to a wide open Ray Allen, without getting a little giddy.”
An evolution taking place before our very eyes? Hmmmmm
Slimjr
October 23rd, 2012
12:13 am
“The Heat, however, have LeBron James. It’s because of his ability to play every spot on the floor at an elite level that other guys can be freed up to play in unconventional ways”
Lebron is [generational] player.. But we already knew that…
Najeh Davenpoop
October 23rd, 2012
12:31 am
Slimjr beat me to posting that Heat article, but it’s funny how using interchangeable positions is a revolutionary idea now, when we had a guy in the ATL about eight years ago who tried to build the Hawks using that exact same idea.
The most important line from that article is this:
“The Heat, however, have LeBron James.”
When you have talented players, you can do whatever you want and you are going to win games. When your high-drafted, positionally-interchangeable centerpiece is Marvin Williams, things don’t go quite as smoothly.
It’s also worth noting that one of the Heat’s main rivals for a title this year, the Lakers, have built their team entirely using traditional positions.
Slimjr
October 23rd, 2012
12:38 am
Like I said in a previous blog, maybe Billy Knight was a [VISIONARY]?
But Marvin and Sheldon ruined his Genius plans……
doc
October 23rd, 2012
1:05 am
these offenses are similar to the wheel offense run by garland pinholster at oglethorpe university back in the 50’s and 60’s that took then to top four ncaa championship level to lose to the college team of clyde frazier. little guys thrived in it for easy baskets.
gdad you ever here of this offense or try it?
doc
October 23rd, 2012
1:11 am
pretty funny, founf it of course in wikipedia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wheel_offense
vava74
October 23rd, 2012
3:03 am
If anyone is looking for Okur, they should look in the yellow pages under “taxidermist”.
That guy has been dead for about 3 years now.
vava74
October 23rd, 2012
3:15 am
What the visionary also forgot, along with the fact that Marvin was as useful in an interchangeable positions system as a fork to eat soup is that you also need a quality head coach to implement that…
and Woody did not have – by any stretch of imagination – any skill as an offensive coach, nor accepted input from assistants.
Grandad
October 23rd, 2012
4:12 am
doc
Yes I know all about GPinholster.
I kept up with Oglethorpe as a lad.
I also ran many of his concepts.
I used to run the double cut off the ” Wheel “.
Also worked with a coach once who ran nothing but.
doc – we must talk sometime:
I got stories !
” The Stormy Petrels “
vava74
October 23rd, 2012
5:58 am
Josh:
“We can’t look around that locker room and expect anybody else to take the heat,”
“Anybody that tells you Joe didn’t carry us in those early years is lying. He had to. We were so young and guys were still trying to figure out where they fit. But I think we can all agree that the past few years this team changed, and we changed in ways that made it necessary for some of us to assume leadership roles and become more vocal because that just wasn’t his thing. We’re going to find out what guys are made of now that the pressure is all on us.”
Always frank and being vocal about the obvious lack of vocal leadership from JJ.
EmirS.
October 23rd, 2012
6:14 am
Open invite to Join AJC Hawks Bloggers fantasy basketball on yahoo, presented by Astro.
League ID: 72440
Password: vivlamore
Draft is this Thursday at 9:30 pm. Hurry and join up. Three spots open.
See you there!
Just Joe
October 23rd, 2012
6:22 am
On a “position-less” team aren’t you still “defined” by the position you can defend? You may not be a “5″, but you’re going to defend the biggest guy on the floor. You may not be a PG or “1″, but you’re going to defend the quickest opposing guard that brings the ball up the floor?
Ra'mon
October 23rd, 2012
6:33 am
Vava, no one else (aside from Bibby) would’ve made those comments in the last 4 seasons on the Hawks.
Buddy Grizzard
October 23rd, 2012
6:34 am
“Wonder who told you that PER stuff was nonsense?”
It’s not nonsense but it disproportionately favors inefficient volume shooters and players who put up stats on bad teams.
Ra'mon
October 23rd, 2012
6:34 am
JustJoe, on the Heat, Lebron, Bosh, and Battier EACH can guard 2-5 on just about any play.
Buddy Grizzard
October 23rd, 2012
7:27 am
According to PER, DeShawn Stevenson was one of the very worst players in the NBA last season. He may have had a down year, but this does not account for his defensive impact. I will take him as a starter all day over Willie Green.
JoshFriend
October 23rd, 2012
8:04 am
The Lakers have waived Chris Douglas-Roberts and Pistons waived Terrence Williams. We need a SF and one of these players can filled SF position on our team.
a bird in the hand>2 in the busch.
October 23rd, 2012
8:14 am
dang, the roster broken down already!?
guess i’ll have to read the article now….
find out what the bad news is…sigh…
MsDee
October 23rd, 2012
8:58 am
Damion James @KONJames10
U will bro! Jus a go gettaRT @BBall_4Life_: @KONJames10 yes I have a question, because I have NEVER HEARD OF YOU, are u a rookie?
Am I reading too much into this? Will Damion James make the team base on his twitt??
Just Joe
October 23rd, 2012
8:59 am
Ra’mon…I agree that its pretty easy to mix & switch on what’s known as the 2-4 spots, but to me the type of lineup that’s talked about in that article will have serious trouble defending a “traditional” offense with a “true” PG and “true” C. But we will find out who’s style wins as the Lakers (traditional) and Heat (position-less) seem to be on a collision course with maybe only OKC (hybrid???) standing in the way. Is it easier for a “position-less” team to defend a “traditional” team, or a “traditional” team to defend a “position-less” team?
I’m still more of a traditional guy myself. Give me Chris Paul, Dwight Howard, and a bunch of hustle/role players.
doc
October 23rd, 2012
9:38 am
doc – we must talk sometime:
I got stories !
” The Stormy Petrels “
it would be a pleasure my friend.
played baseball at ou as the fiscal cutbacks came between my freshman year and senior year.
bet you know this guy they recruited my senior year to take over the baseball program, joe willingham. one of the best. if i hadnt felt so strong about my career path he was going to push me in the direction of the mets, whom he scouted for. nothing but respect for the guy.
Marcus
October 23rd, 2012
10:41 am
ESPN.com is hailing the Heat for doing what Billy Knight tried to do …. albeit much more successful, esp. given they have the best player on the planet.
http://espn.go.com/blog/truehoop/miamiheat/post/_/id/15523/it-all-starts-with-lebron-james
2 FOR JOHN DREW
October 23rd, 2012
11:37 am
entertaining blog ….. Enjoy your break C-VIV
Ken Strickland
October 23rd, 2012
11:46 am
The following list contains the 1 or 2 players that will most likely get cut, Petro, Anderson, Korver, Morrow, Tolliver, James, and Stevenson. It’s a certainty that Josh, Al, Teague, Zaza, Ivan, Williams, Harris, Scott and Jenkins won’t get cut. With the slim pickings at SF, we can expect James to make the roster. Tolliver brings the versitility and shooting LDrew likes.
Stevenson will hopefully bring the DEF that’s needed, but if James doesn’t start, it’s an indication of Drews preference for OFF over DEF and rebounding. Both Morrow and Korver provide excellent long range shooting, although Morrow provides more overall ability. It’s really hard to say what we can get from Petro, but it’s safe to say he’ll give us more overall than we got from Dampier or Collins if given consistent mins based on his youth, superior athleticism and stamina alone.
However, on the list of potential players to be cut, he’ll probably be the easiest player to replace from the players that will be available after final team cuts are made. Unlike past decisions regarding draft picks under Woodson, Drew, and former GM RSund, Ferry has mandated that this yrs draftees will make the roster and be developed.
Even though he’s more experienced, Tolliver hasn’t shown anything during preseason that shows he offers an advantage in shooting, rebounding, DEF, or versatility over rookie Scott. While Tolliver has likely reached his ceiling as a player, Scott has definite room for improvement. With the DEF ability James has shown, it wouldn’t surprise me to see Anderson and/or Stevenson cut.
However, if contracts are included as a deciding factor, like it was with Petro, things could change regarding Stevenson. In the end, it could all be easily resolved by maintaining a 15 man roster and cutting JAnderson, who’s been the least productive and least impressive player in camp so far.
O'Brien
October 23rd, 2012
11:48 am
When Jenkins was drafted, somebody made the comment that he has a specific skill. He is a shooter. The same can be said for Damion James and his specific skill. He is a rebounder. In college, he averaged 9.3 rebounds per game in 29.3 mpg…playing the 3 spot. We have seen it translate in the preseason, with his rebounding average.
I dont mind him not starting day 1, game 1, as long as he gets his minutes. Childress did not start when he was here, but he got minutes, and outplayed Marvin at times. As a result, Woody would have Childress in at the end of games, not Marvin. Now if James comes off the bench and plays well once the season starts, he should be rewarded.
One concern with James, and maybe AJ mentioned it before. He has a history of getting injured, so maybe LD feels better bringing him along slowly off the bench.
PD
October 23rd, 2012
11:52 am
They should have kept Keith Benson. They need size, plus his offensive game is way better than Petro. Unfortunately, Petro is guaranteed and locked in on this team. Drew needs to incorporate the bigs more.
MsDee
October 23rd, 2012
12:02 pm
CV,
I know that practice should be taking place sometime now or later today. Here is a repost from early in this blog:
CV,
If you get the opportunity again to talk with Drew, could u ask him about his feelings on Damion James? If he won’t say much, just inform him on how much us Hawks fans would just LOVE to see him on the team. He is such a hustler and tough rebounder that it would just be hard to not see him on this team, game after game. Let him know that both James and Ivan are fans favorites here and let him know to not disappoint us..thx in advance, Chris!!
Ken Strickland
October 23rd, 2012
12:08 pm
I don’t think BKnight got a fair shake. He definitely didn’t have the full support of Management, and his HC obviously did a 180 on him as far as what he said he wanted to get hired and what he did after getting hired. Woodson’s greatest accomplishment was to convince management that his approach we the best approach, which got BK ousted.
Marvin and the Landlord were mistake, but the Landlord was definitely BKs mistake while Marvin was on Woodson. It was Woodson who spoke out about not seeing either CP3 or DWil as NBA caliber talent. He even stated reason for doubting them as their size and/or stature, with him saying CP3 was too small and short, and DWill too hefty and slow.
Neither player was a very good outside shooter coming out of college, but they have since corrected that problem. I honestly believe their outside shoot ability was the real reason Woodson didn’t want either player running his team, and those size, weight excuses were just smokescreens. If BK had been allowed to fire Woodson, or been coersed into catering to Woodsons desire not to draft CP3 or DWill, we’d be seeing the Miami model doing its thing in the ATL.
Marvin, Horford, Josh, JJ and CP3, WOW! All 4 of these players would have thrived playing with CP3, especially Marvin. JJ would have played the way he did when he played next to Nash, and Josh would have kept his butt a lot closer to the lane and launched far fewer long range jumpers.
Back to reality, I’m through dreaming.
darrell starks
October 23rd, 2012
12:18 pm
Thanks Big Brother Ray, you are totally right about Mehmet Okur, if Danny Ferry is really serious about this season he would sign him ASAP.
GO HAWKS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
darrell starks
October 23rd, 2012
12:20 pm
Hawks are on the verge of having a special season with the right pieces on this team.
GO HAWKS!!!!!!!!!!!
Buddy Grizzard
October 23rd, 2012
12:30 pm
Ken, why would we have Marvin if we had drafted CP3? Some other sucker would have taken him. And as others have noted, if we drafted Paul or Williams, we would not have been bad enough to take Horford with the 3rd pick. You don’t think the “Basketball Expert” who no longer has a job in the NBA didn’t get a fair shake? Just when you think you’ve heard it all…
Astro Joe
October 23rd, 2012
12:31 pm
OB, I think Damion James has played around 25% of the NBA games he was eligible to play in (the equivalent of playing around 21 of 82 games in a season). That doesn’t mean that he will ALWAYS stay injury-prone.. but it does mean that he needs to prove that he can be productive and healthy at the same time (because as of yet, he has NOT proven that at all).
Buddy Grizzard
October 23rd, 2012
12:31 pm
blah double negative you get the idea.
darrell starks
October 23rd, 2012
12:32 pm
2012 HAWKS
STARTERS TEAGUE, LOU, JOSH, HORFORD, ZAZA
BENCH DEVIN, MORROW, KORVER, IVAN, OKUR
RESERVE JENKINS, ?, ?
THIS HAWKS TEAM WOULD BE A SOLID GOOD TEAM.
GO HAWKS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Slimjr
October 23rd, 2012
12:42 pm
I wonder if the Celtics will switch to a hybrid or totally position less system if Miami is successful with this revolutionary system?
Heck how bout the Hawks? This sounds fascinating…
Slimjr
October 23rd, 2012
12:49 pm
I believe the term [pride goes before a fall] was Billy Knight..
Allegedly, he was so sure of himself drafting [Shell Head] instead of manning the phones to work on deals, on draft night he was out walking the dogs…Huh?.
Ken Strickland
October 23rd, 2012
12:52 pm
BUDDY GRIZZARD-Thanks for catching that gross error and bringing it to my attention. I should have put Childress’ name in his spot.
BIG RAY/DARRELL STARKS-I tried to see what Okur has left in the tank, and I don’t think he’s on anyones roster. He last played in New Jersey last yr and his stats were 17gms played, 14 started, 26.7MPG
i_am_soulstar
October 23rd, 2012
12:54 pm
Kind of surprised that Terrence Williams got cut from the Pistons. His numbers were up last year for the Kings. Not surprised by CDR though.
Ken Strickland
October 23rd, 2012
12:56 pm
37.4FG%, 31.93p%, .600FT%, 4.8RPG, and 7.6PPG. I doubt if Ferry has any interest in him whatsoever at this point since he had a chance to take him over Petro in the JJ trade and chose Petro.
i_am_soulstar
October 23rd, 2012
1:05 pm
Then again, the Pistons have a glut of small forwards.
Ken Strickland
October 23rd, 2012
1:05 pm
The fact that it’s been mentioned recently that we might not carry 15 players might indicate Ferry really is looking to add to the roster. It might be that he’s looking for a specific player or players to be released before acting. Not making a roster cut leading up to the cut deadline might indicate he wants to hold onto his assets until the last min for trade purposes.
We do have definite duplication at SG/SF and PF, namely Korver/Morrow, and Scott/Tolliver. Petro and Stevenson could also be considerations as well. Some of you might say what about PG with Teague, Harris and Williams, or why not add Jenkins to the SG mix. Well, the 3 PGs aren’t going anywhere before this summer and neither is Jenkins.
Ken Strickland
October 23rd, 2012
1:12 pm
I-AM-SOULSTAR-Even if we trade for or sign one of these players, it will be a while before they can contribute. It won’t be easy for all of the new players who’ve already gone through an entire training camp and exhibition season to blend in their talents and start the season having chemistry. We can’t expect a player signed after the fact to have it any easier with him being so far behind everyone else.
That doesn’t mean I’m against us acquiring one of those players. We just have to be careful with thinking one of these players will become an instant starter for us. No matter how talented he might be, how much potential he might have, or how well he played for his previous team, he’ll still have to learn the systems, players, and earn his mins.
i_am_soulstar
October 23rd, 2012
1:39 pm
Ken Strickland
October 23rd, 2012
1:12 pm
I-AM-SOULSTAR-Even if we trade for or sign one of these players, it will be a while before they can contribute. It won’t be easy for all of the new players who’ve already gone through an entire training camp and exhibition season to blend in their talents and start the season having chemistry. We can’t expect a player signed after the fact to have it any easier with him being so far behind everyone else.
That doesn’t mean I’m against us acquiring one of those players. We just have to be careful with thinking one of these players will become an instant starter for us. No matter how talented he might be, how much potential he might have, or how well he played for his previous team, he’ll still have to learn the systems, players, and earn his mins.
**************************************************************************************
Ken,
I don’t think we should acquire either of them, I just think that Terrence Williams is a half decent small forward, but i wouldn’t go after him over Damion James or Anthony Tolliver.
Buddy Grizzard
October 23rd, 2012
1:45 pm
One of Sund’s boys headed to Toronto:
Adrian Wojnarowski: Toronto has hired Atlanta Hawks assistant GM David Pendergraft in its pro personnel department, league sources tell Y! Sports. Twitter @WojYahooNBA
O'Brien
October 23rd, 2012
2:09 pm
Ken S,
Marvin and the Landlord were mistake, but the Landlord was definitely BKs mistake while Marvin was on Woodson..
BK is on record as saying he laughs when people say we need a PG. Therefore, I think he shares the blame with Woody for drafting Marvin instead of CP3 or D-Will. Plus it was BK who envisioned having 5 interchangeable guys (6′8″ and up) …so PG was not on his list of priority in that draft.
And I wonder whose idea it was to sign Speedy Claxton? Dude was CP3’s backup and injury prone, but yet we offered him a big (relatively speaking) FA contract. That just made a bad situation worse.
Allofus
October 23rd, 2012
2:10 pm
Hawks should go for Greg Somogyi from Lakers
O'Brien
October 23rd, 2012
2:10 pm
Buddy,
Our team would have been
PG: – CP3 or D-Will
SG – JJ
SF – Childress
PF – Josh
C – Zaza
I would have liked to see what that team could do, because that backcourt would have been unstoppable, plus to have CP3 throwing lobs to Josh and Childress…
DW
October 23rd, 2012
2:15 pm
What a mess!!!
Grandad
October 23rd, 2012
2:17 pm
Buddy G;
beat me to the punch.
So I counter;
dark day in Toronto !
Skies bright over Atlanta.
Grandad
October 23rd, 2012
2:23 pm
It would be encouraging news if DF were to steal CAldrich
away from OKC !
Grandad
October 23rd, 2012
2:26 pm
I thought I should qualify:
* no rumor * … -only wishful thinking- :::::
‘` It would be encouraging news if DF were to steal CAldrich
away from OKC `’
doc
October 23rd, 2012
2:30 pm
o’b roy or gay might have been available the next year, no? hard to say going forward if that line up could have turned it around that quickly for sure.
Astro Joe
October 23rd, 2012
2:58 pm
And if my aunt had (blank), she’d be my uncle.
Love all of this draft remorse discussion. It would truly be amazing if someone actually brought up an angle that hasn’t been mentioned in the past, what, 84 months?
terrell
October 23rd, 2012
3:16 pm
Eddy Curry was released by the Spurs. Would much rather have him han Petro if at all possible.
doc
October 23rd, 2012
3:23 pm
terrell, why. both are going to end up in the spectator seats and curry has had his chances. one of the bigger busts ever.
Johan Petro
October 23rd, 2012
3:24 pm
It’s a riot that I have made millions of dollars for being one of the worst ever at the game.
Big Ump
October 23rd, 2012
3:50 pm
Big Ray, Ken Strickland, Doc, Grandad and Sautee, Rod from College Park, and Astro Joe How everything going with you these days? I don’t get a chance to read the blogs much these days but when I do I always enjoy reading you all post
Sautee
October 23rd, 2012
3:57 pm
Big Ump,
Glad to see you back. Did you ever get a copy of that book “Sweet Soul Music” I mentioned to you?
If not, try and find it. The author is Peter Garalnick. It’s exactly up your alley. He also wrote a wonderful book about Sam Cooke, called “Dream Boogie”, that’s worthwhile.
Glad to see you are still around.
i_am_soulstar
October 23rd, 2012
4:00 pm
If I’m Danny and LD, I’m trading Petro for a second round draft pick to some desperate team with few bigs, keeping Damion James and Anthony Tolliver on non-guaranteed contracts, releasing James Anderson, and keeping my eye on the waiver wire.
Buddy Grizzard
October 23rd, 2012
4:06 pm
http://espn.go.com/blog/truehoop/post/_/id/50554/on-display-in-preseason-new-skills
Not on display in this article: Al Horford.
Astro Joe
October 23rd, 2012
4:07 pm
Big Ump, we’re still debating the 2005, 2006 drafts and rather the Hawks should have benched JR Ryder in game #27 of that awful season. Other than that, it’s a whole new game.
Rod from College Park
October 23rd, 2012
4:18 pm
“It’s not nonsense but it disproportionately favors inefficient volume shooters and players who put up stats on bad teams.”
Thus it’s nonsense. It’s a fantasy stat. Used for people who play fantasy basketball to determine what a player would do if………… Notice the word FANTASY, which means not real.
Slimjr
October 23rd, 2012
4:19 pm
LoL @ Buddy G! You could not resist? Heh heh heh
Rod from College Park
October 23rd, 2012
4:19 pm
Preciate it Big Ump. Glad to see you back.
Slimjr
October 23rd, 2012
4:23 pm
Ken,
James is going to stick.
Once he fixes that stand still spot up mid-range jumper, he’ll become a starter or at least be there to close out games..He’s hungry…
doc
October 23rd, 2012
4:36 pm
big ump pleasure to have your soul around here. season getting ready to start so your timing to check in is good.
O'Brien
October 23rd, 2012
4:45 pm
Doc,
Don’t sleep on Eddy Curry. He won a championship ring last season
AJ,
Don’t forget, we are also debating if Bibby being old and slow is the reason why Josh doesn’t give it up on the break, and whether or not we should have kept Jamal
Ken Strickland
October 23rd, 2012
5:05 pm
OBRIEN-That entire disfunctional organization was responsible for what happened during that particular draft and beyond. BKs ego, Woodson’s stubborness and one dimensional approach, and the ASGs constant interference and internal struggles, all got in the way of doing things the right way. Who knows, everything might have changed for the better if the ASG had let BK fire Woodson when he 1st wanted to do so.
I’ll take BKs aggressiveness and attitude over the passive old school approach of RSund anyday. BK would have resigned Childress and wouldn’t have waited to resign Josh. BK wanted the same versatile uptempo fastbreaking type of team with interchangeable parts that Ferry has put together so far.
Woodson actually installed and implimented a system that was the complete opposite of what BK envisioned. And he did it regardless of whether it suited the majority of the players he had. His philosophy was that it was up to each player to adjust to the way he wanted them to play, rather then him adjusting to the way they played best.
BIG UMP-What’s up big man? I certainly hope your reasons for not being able to join us regularly has nothing to do with anything serious or negative. It would be nice to have a trio of BIG RAY, BIG LOU, and BIG UMP on the blogs regularly.While you’re here, tell us what you think about the team and what you think its capabilities are?
doc
October 23rd, 2012
5:14 pm
o’b obviously he is a winner then, eh? maybe he can add to the culture then.
Astro Joe
October 23rd, 2012
5:27 pm
OB, don’t forget the whole “Lenny doesn’t like superstars” conspiracy associated with Nique’s trade.
Fire Bob Weiss!
Ken Strickland
October 23rd, 2012
5:27 pm
SLIMJR-If James develops a midrange gm to go with his rebounding, DEF and passing ability, he’ll become a potential Allstar. Tell me, why don’t todays young players take a page from the OLD SCHOOL players who didn’t have good shooting touches? We saw so many of them rely on using rely on the backboard, like Tim Duncan has done his entire career.
Why can’t at least one big man have enough sense to develop Kareem’s sky hook? It’s more effective than the jump hook, can be banked in, and doesn’t require you to be as close to the basket to be effective. And the running hook across the lane has also become a thing of the past. If Josh used his head, he’d take better advantage of the backboard.
Instead of getting frustrated when he can’t force his way close enough to the basket to effectively shoot his jump hook, and then settling for all of those illadvised jumpers at the rim, he should consider using the backboard.
If he can’t back his man close enough to get off a quality jump hook, he should just work on getting a good angle, then turn around, face his defender, fake and shoot at the square. It would be nice to see James do the same thing. It would also get them to the FT line more.
Buddy Grizzard
October 23rd, 2012
5:48 pm
Gothic Ginobili’s capsule on Ivan Johnson is pure awesome:
http://repatl.blogspot.com/2012/10/orthodontist-to-toothache-we-call.html
Buddy Grizzard
October 23rd, 2012
5:55 pm
“BK would have resigned Childress and wouldn’t have waited to resign Josh.”
Wow, Ken S., now I’ve really heard everything. You think this would be a good thing considering the fact that Childress got amnestied by Phoenix and is now and end-of-the-bench player in Brooklyn while Josh is an emerging All-Star?
Slimjr
October 23rd, 2012
6:00 pm
KEN S- You are so right! These players want to jump over everybody or step back and shoot 30 footers.. The mid-range game has been neglected as well as the [glass]..That’s what Lebron had to figure out so many years into his professional career..The mid-range post/area is Championship real-estate..
These Fathers and Coaches have done a piss poor job teaching these player the fundamentals in the art of shooting.. If Josh knew how to use angles and the Glass for instance? OMG! SuperStar no doubt! If Josh could dribble drive then stop and pop! OMG!
Rudy Gay has that kind of mid-range game. I enjoy watching him play..This guy is 6′9″ and can dribble drive like a 2 guard, cross his handles and pull up on a dime for a 15 footer all day..
BTW, I have seen Al use the running hook across the lane. He should continue to work on that shot.
terrell
October 23rd, 2012
6:06 pm
Doc, Curry actually looked ok in the preseason. Looks to be in shape for once.
Slimjr
October 23rd, 2012
6:15 pm
FYI, Demarcus Cousins is a BEAST!
He took Gasol 8 ft off the left elbow on a dribble drive toward the Rack and knew if he laid it up with his right hand, the shot gets blocked so he switches hands and shoots a finger roll with his off hand [left]!
Are you kidding me???? He is 6′11″! I am a fan now!
Ken Strickland
October 23rd, 2012
6:15 pm
BUDDY GRIZZARD-You obviously misread my comments. Childress was a definite asset for us during that time and what happened to him after he left, or what his circumstances are now, has nothing to do with that. My point is BK would have resigned them both to extensions rather than letting the market set their value, which cost us 1 of the 2 players.
Childress proved to be an excellent fit and very producive while he was here. He was also in the running a couple of yrs for the SMOY award. He played SF, Point F/PG, and SG with equal skill on both ends of the court. I can’t remember a single Hawks player that ever played without the ball, or without having plays called for him, as effectively accross the board as Childress.
Slimjr
October 23rd, 2012
6:22 pm
Childress game was like [Plastic Man] Stacey Augmon.. Stacey is coaching at UNLV now…
Lisa S.
October 23rd, 2012
6:24 pm
I like the idea of going after Mehemet Okur for 1 season or Greg Oden, if he is still out there. Time to take a gamble, low risk, high reward. I do not understand why there is no love for a brotha like G. Oden on this blog. Come on yall.
Lisa S.
October 23rd, 2012
6:28 pm
at 6″11″ 260 i am telling yall that “size matters” fellas. G. Oden could be our franchise saviour at center.
Slimjr
October 23rd, 2012
6:31 pm
Oden, may never play NBA ball again:
Ken Strickland
October 23rd, 2012
6:32 pm
SLIMJR-Excellent points-Players coming into the NBA today are more talented athletically than players of the past era, but they are far less skilled fundamentally. If I could, I’d take Josh and James to the gym and teach the the up and under move off a fake bank shot. I’d also show them how to shoot FTs.
First, I’d have them extend their elbow and the ball away from their bodies, which forces them to use more wrist than elbow. Then I’d have them aim for the front of the rim and visualize dropping the ball into the basket just like they would do if they were shooting wads of paper into a waste basket.
All of this holding the ball over or behind the head won’t work for them. That’s usually a sign of weak wrists, which forces them to use too much elbow. It’s much better to use your legs and wrist than your elbow when shooting FTs.
Matt the Brave
October 23rd, 2012
6:40 pm
Any time the Hawks play the Heat, they need to play a front three of Pachulia, Smith, and Horford. It’d throw the Heat off balance and give the Hawks a good chance of beating them on a consistent basis. Frankly, the Heat are the only real challenge in this division this year.
Slimjr
October 23rd, 2012
6:41 pm
Hey Lisa S., I heard size only matters in the Horizontal position?? Heh heh heh……
Slimjr
October 23rd, 2012
6:42 pm
Matt Brave, the Celtics are the Truth….
Slimjr
October 23rd, 2012
6:44 pm
“Greg Oden pumps brakes on comeback talk, looks forward to becoming a gym teacher” -Dan Devine, Yahoo Sports, the ball don’t lie-
Ken Strickland
October 23rd, 2012
6:47 pm
LISA S-There’s a good reason Ferry chose to take Petro over Okur, who was also on the NETs roster last yr, and why he isn’t on anyones training camp roster. Injuries and age have obviously taken a toll on him. He started 14 of the 17gms he played with the Nets and averaged 26.7MPG, shot 37.4FG%, 32.93P%, .60FT%, averaged 4.8RPG, and 7.6PPG.
Those are numbers you’d expect form a backup center averaging far fewer than 28MPG.
Lets get an answer
October 23rd, 2012
6:58 pm
Is there any truth to the online rumor that Al Horford is being shopped around the NBA?
I know Al was on the trading block this past summer and 3 publications are now saying he is being shopped again. Al is my favorite player and I would hate to see him traded. How ever it is going to help the team get better then Im OK with it.
Would some one look at all of the publications that are talking Al trade and see which is What?
Ken Strickland
October 23rd, 2012
7:01 pm
LISA S-Here’s a statistical comparison of Okur and Petro, who both played for the Nets last yr.
OKUR(PETRO) Gms started/played 14/17(10/59), MPG 26.7(15.6), FG% 37.4(41.9), FT% 60.0(83.8), RPG 4.8(3.8), PPG 7.6(4.2). I’m not certain about this, but I believe Okur replaced Lopez due to injury, and Petro replaced Okur for the same reason. The reason Okur hasn’t signed with anyone is he might still be recovering from an injury. I believe both Okur and Oden’s NBA careers are over.
Jerry Glanville
October 23rd, 2012
7:07 pm
http://www.bleacherreport.com reporting that the Bulls may be amnestying Carlos Boozer in order to sign Taj Gibson long term. How about a frontline of Boozer-Horford-Smoove?
PF-C. Boozer
C-A. Horford
SF-J. Smith
SG-Lou Williams
PG-J. Teague
deep playoff run with this squad.
Jerry Glanville
October 23rd, 2012
7:17 pm
I think that Josh-Horford-Boozer would be the most talented 3 Bigs together in the eastern conf.?
Troll PSA
October 23rd, 2012
7:44 pm
I am always amazed how many times the trolls fool some of the regulars around here. Troll sets you all up using all kind of names, including female names, and y’all just keep engaging the troll like it is a credible blogger with reasonable intellect and maturity. Not only do the trolls look silly but so do the regulars.
paian
October 23rd, 2012
8:03 pm
@troll psa
ikr, im looking at it now and getting a laugh outta it
Artman
October 23rd, 2012
8:18 pm
I disagree about the comments concerning Billy Knight and Sheldon Williams. If you actually noticed the only year that Billy Knight did not keep his intended draft pick close to his vest was Sheldon William. Every other year was secretive. Yet a month before the draft, not only did he announced Williams as his choice, he refused to discuss options with other general manager. I think the ASG group told Knight to draft the most ready to play big man in the draft, which was Williams. I suspect Knight would have drafted another player if he had the choice. Probably another forward. His announcing the pick rather than keeing it secretive was Knight’s way to thumb his nose at the ASG group.
Grandmaster JeJe (GM)
October 23rd, 2012
9:12 pm
Why do we have so many damn 6″3 and 6″8 players?
We are short on bigs EVERY SEASON AND THATS WHY WE END UP USING GUYS LIKE PETRO DAMPIER AND CHEESEBURGER COLLINS
Astro Joe
October 23rd, 2012
9:25 pm
JeJe, are you joining thre fantsay league this season? Did you see the email invite?
And WTF is wrong with cheeseburgers????
Buddy Grizzard
October 23rd, 2012
9:41 pm
“the Celtics are the Truth….”
This is a fact. Possibly the deepest team in the NBA.
Big Ray
October 23rd, 2012
9:47 pm
And if my aunt had (blank), she’d be my uncle.
Love all of this draft remorse discussion. It would truly be amazing if someone actually brought up an angle that hasn’t been mentioned in the past, what, 84 months?
What, did you come here for new and refreshing entertainment? During the offseason of a season that won’t really matter?
Silly Wabbit….
Big Ray
October 23rd, 2012
9:48 pm
I disagree about the comments concerning Billy Knight and Sheldon Williams. If you actually noticed the only year that Billy Knight did not keep his intended draft pick close to his vest was Sheldon William. Every other year was secretive. Yet a month before the draft, not only did he announced Williams as his choice, he refused to discuss options with other general manager. I think the ASG group told Knight to draft the most ready to play big man in the draft, which was Williams. I suspect Knight would have drafted another player if he had the choice. Probably another forward. His announcing the pick rather than keeing it secretive was Knight’s way to thumb his nose at the ASG group.
Yep. And there’s ocean front property available in Arizona. Today.
Astro Joe
October 23rd, 2012
9:51 pm
Yeah, Celtics are definitely built for the playoffs. They have done a great job of infusing young players so grey-beards like Pierce and KG won’t need to play as many minutes this coming regular season as in years past.
Melvin
October 23rd, 2012
9:54 pm
Watching OKC/Chi game, Hawks could have easily played PJ3 at the SF spot. Depending on matchups, PJ3 or Josh could have defended the other team SF…. No knock against Jenkins but I would have took my chances on 6-11 guy that has star potential and skill set then an undersize SG with a good shooting stroke….
waltbellamy
October 23rd, 2012
9:59 pm
Sautee
October 23rd, 2012
3:57 pm
Big Ump,
Glad to see you back. Did you ever get a copy of that book “Sweet Soul Music” I mentioned to you?
——-
A belated strong endorsement of “Sweet Soul Music” or really any of Guralnick’s books for that matter. The two volume Elvis bio is outstanding and the Sam Cooke book is a must read.
Astro Joe
October 23rd, 2012
10:01 pm
Big Ray, the discussion of the 2005 and 2006 drafts are about as dead as Tito Jackson’s singing career.
Astro Joe
October 23rd, 2012
10:04 pm
Melvin, you’re leaving out a knee that many across the league feel is a big question mark. That obviously was a factor in PJ3 slipping out of the first half of the draft.
bama52
October 23rd, 2012
10:22 pm
Help Zaza improve on staying out of foul trouble and getting aggressive on offense, especially when going to the basket. Al, Josh and Zaza must lead this team this year. Make every body focus hard on defense and most of all team defense. I don’t think we will have a problem with scoring, we’re going to be fast on offense. We could be a headache for the rest of the league if we play defense, share the ball and just play hard team ball on both ends.
Melvin
October 23rd, 2012
10:25 pm
Astro,
They said the same thing about DeJaun Blair. It’s all about taking risk. We will probably see Bad Knees PJ3 play more mins on a title contending team than healthy knees Jenkins on a borderline playoff team. Remember, which organization that has rebuilt their roster to a title contender in about a 5yr span (if that)…
doc
October 23rd, 2012
10:38 pm
ken lisa is a boy, dude. you fav, too. you can now feel perfectly comfortable in calling her an anal minded moron without offending the opposite sex. heh heh
brigadierjerry
October 23rd, 2012
10:45 pm
slimjr, this article is for you,
http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/basketball/kyrie-irving-dad-survived-wife-death-9-11-days-son-reach-nba-dreams-article-1.129663
brigadierjerry
October 23rd, 2012
10:51 pm
Did anyone see this story on ESPN 30 for 30? Was a good story but tragic ending. I vaguely remember this when this happend
http://espn.go.com/video/clip?id=8526554
Slimjr
October 23rd, 2012
11:57 pm
Thank you brigadierjerry for that awesome article on Kyrie and his Father! Man that family has been through heck! Kyrie is the real deal.. Quick off the dribble and has a lightening quick release that is deadly….
Najeh Davenpoop
October 24th, 2012
12:28 am
Potentially good news for Josh (but potentially bad news for Al). The NBA is no longer going to have a center on the All Star ballot. With Dwight out of the Eastern Conference, this means three forwards will likely be voted in, possibly opening up an extra bench spot for a forward (Josh), but on the flip side with no center requirement it makes it harder for Al to get voted in.
doc
October 24th, 2012
12:34 am
geez, nuggets play 17 of first 23 games on the road, that is a biatch.
Ken Strickland
October 24th, 2012
12:39 am
http://www.peachtreehoops.com/2012/10/23/3537430/atlanta-hawks-2012-roster-preview-damion-james
Check this one out about Damion James.
Ken Strickland
October 24th, 2012
12:52 am
http://www.peachtreehoops.com/2012/10/22/3537046/atlanta-hawks-2012-season-preview
Check this out Hawk fans.
Ken Strickland
October 24th, 2012
12:59 am
http://www.sbnation.com/nba/2012/10/22/3536800/atlanta-hawks-offseason-joe-johnson-trade
Here’s another gem Hawks fans.
Ken Strickland
October 24th, 2012
1:08 am
http://www.peachtreehoops.com/2012/9/27/3419334/move-josh-smith-to-small-forward
This is a must read on JSmith.
Najeh Davenpoop
October 24th, 2012
1:08 am
Hey Astro Joe, can we do an auction draft this year?
Najeh Davenpoop
October 24th, 2012
1:12 am
Never mind, just saw your reply.
Buddy Grizzard
October 24th, 2012
1:54 am
“They said the same thing about DeJaun Blair.”
Agree we should have drafted PJ3 but Blair is a bad example seeing as how he has fallen out of the rotation in SA.
Buddy Grizzard
October 24th, 2012
2:18 am
Thanks for the links, Ken. Not sure what the Chinese Zodiac is supposed to tell me about Damion James though.
northcyde
October 24th, 2012
2:49 am
Najeh Davenpoop
October 24th, 2012
12:28 am
Potentially good news for Josh (but potentially bad news for Al). The NBA is no longer going to have a center on the All Star ballot. With Dwight out of the Eastern Conference, this means three forwards will likely be voted in, possibly opening up an extra bench spot for a forward (Josh), but on the flip side with no center requirement it makes it harder for Al to get voted in.
***************************
That’s definitely a killer for Al. And it doesn’t help Smith either.
Byunm will be voted in or chosen, and be a true center
Bosh and KG will be chosen by coaches, as the PF/C guys
And you know Lebron and Melo will receive the fan votes.
So that’s either one or two spots left in the frontcourt.
- Smith, who people felt got snubbed for 2 yrs straight
- Horford, already a 2 time All-Star
- Pierce always gets respect from coaches
- Deng will probably be leading the Bulls in scoring
- Hibbert is probably the 2nd best true center in the East
- Granger may or may not be at All-Star level
- Amare can still get you 20 pts – 8 rebs
- Chandler is the DPOY
- and Brook Lopez may be in the mix as well
So that’s 9 guys for the final 2 spots.
Astro Joe
October 24th, 2012
7:05 am
If Josh makes it, will it come as a result of him kissing someone’s butt?
Melvin, let’s see what happens. The knee issue isn’t about just the pre-season or even his rookie season. And Blair (for whatever reason) hasn’t been able to maintain his early career performances and likely will be a UFA next summer. We’ll know more about Jenkins next year, when Korver, Morrow and DeShawn are distant memories.
vava74
October 24th, 2012
7:25 am
My guess is that Pierce and Garnett’s production will fall this year enough for them to consider Josh as a good selection if he is the main cog on a playoff bound team.
However, I have doubts that we will actually make it to the playoffs…
vava74
October 24th, 2012
8:05 am
AJ,
I think we will probably keep Morrow as a secondary long range specialist.
Just Joe
October 24th, 2012
8:25 am
I don’t vava. I think Morrow is gone as soon as Ferry can get a draft pick for him. Same with Korver & Harris.
If they kept those guys, the Hawks would probably have to renounce their rights this summer anyway (along with ZaZa) because of the large cap holds they each would carry. I think the Hawks will at least try to go in to the summer with max cap space barring any major trades before then. A roster of Teague, Williams, Jenkins, Horford, Scott, and Smith allows you to shop for one max free agent (or a couple of mid-tier free agents).
vava74
October 24th, 2012
8:46 am
Just Joe,
Morrow is an expiring deal and @ 4 million he not vastly overpaid if he can produce high % from 3 point land and shows any evolution on the rest of his game.
ie. he seems to be a fairly consistent scorer which, simultaneously, may be useful but at the same time not attract good offers.
Via GTech he has ATL ties, which is also a plus.
Slimjr
October 24th, 2012
8:59 am
If Al pours in 20 and 10 a night he’s a shoe in as an Allstar for the 3rd time…Impressive..
Speaking of Al. He’s going to be interviewed on 680 the fan after he’s finishes up at the tolls on GA400 post 9am….
Slimjr
October 24th, 2012
9:01 am
Al will be on in a few minutes..
Just Joe
October 24th, 2012
9:03 am
vava…would you then keep the rights to Morrow, who’s cap hold is roughly $5M for next year, and make it to where you can’t offer a max contract without shedding one of your other salaries (Teague, Lou, Josh, or Al)? I don’t think Ferry will when he has a similarly skilled player already in John Jenkins on a rookie-level deal.
paian
October 24th, 2012
9:05 am
Al Horford may be in trouble for making the all star team again, It may favor josh more.
http://espn.go.com/nba/story/_/id/8544934/report-nba-change-all-star-balloting-remove-forward-center-designations
MsDee
October 24th, 2012
9:12 am
Jeff Teague @Teague0
Real coo team we got this year
MsDee
October 24th, 2012
9:42 am
With all this time off for the team to continue to jel, looks like they are finally playing well in practice together. Drew may have inserted his “Princeston offense” into practice and everyone is moving the ball and cutting to the lane and hitting open shots that Teague just HAD to twitt, “Real coo (cool) team we got this year”.
O'Brien
October 24th, 2012
9:51 am
Dejaun Blair was the 7th pick of the second round, and in 3 years, he averaged 8.5 pts, 6 rebs, and shot 53% from the field in 20 mpg. If we could get 3 years production like that from a second round pick (even if they fall out of the rotation after that)…that would be awesome imo.
As for Jenkins vs PJ3, it will be interesting to see how their season goes, although I don’t think Jenkins will get much PT this season since we have depth at SG.
Astro Joe
October 24th, 2012
10:05 am
Jenkins was selected and a few weeks later, Ferry added 3 guards with expiring contracts (Devin, Morrow and essentially Stevenson) and signed LouWill as well. And of course, Marvin is gone and now we’re hoping that a guy who has yet to prove he can stay upright for more than half of a season may be our starting SF. So if you draft a player in the 20s to make an immediate contribution (which clearly you don’t), then drafting an SG was a mistake.
I actually think Buddy’s guy, Ezeli, is the one who appears to be the greater miss (more so than PJ3). He looks like a legit defensive big man in the very, very early stages of his career.
MsDee
October 24th, 2012
10:06 am
OB,
Still dont see why Jenkins couldnt start and get the R.Ivey treatment. Not asking for a lot of min, but the guy deserves some PT with starters. With Harris & Lou, we will have a very dangerous 2nd unit to play against other teams 2nd unit. Only time Jenkins sees the floor is during the beginning of games and after halftime. I would be content with that and Im sure he would be to.
Ken Strickland
October 24th, 2012
10:10 am
I don’t think Horford is as concerned about becoming a 3 TIME ALLSTAR as Josh seems to be concerned about being a 1ST TIME ALLSTAR. Horford has always projected himself as a team 1st player with individual awards being a secondary concern. Josh has shown more maturity in his personal life, and his work ethic is unquestioned, but he’s yet to show the same maturity on the court.
He still insists on launching far too many jumpers when both he and the team are much better when he’s anchored near the paint. I don’t see Teague being traded since he’s the youngest of the 3 PGs on the team. His production has equaled or exceeded that of the other 2(Williams/Harris), and he still has considerably more room to improve.
Besides, he’ll be a RFA and we can resign him by matching any offer. If he doesn’t well this season, I believe he’ll want to return. I think the issue about our DEF this yr has been overblown. I believe it was DOC who reminded us that our new uptempo OFF approach will create more possessions and scoring opportunities for us and the opposition, so the DEF numbers compared to yrs past will be skewed.
Our walk it up, halfcourt dominated, ISO, run the clock down OFF approach of the past had a lot to do with our 6th place DEF ranking last yr. The Heat has shown everyone how effective an uptempo attacking fastbreaking OFF approach can be against the slow it down halfcourt approach that has dominated the Eastern Conference.
They were the shortest and one of the smallest teams in the Eastern Conference, but they were also the quickest and fastest, which made them the most dominant. We don’t have anyone that’s as athletic as DWade and Lebron, but they don’t have anyone else that’s as quick, fast, physical and/or athletic as Teague, Harris, Williams, Horford, Josh, Ivan, and Tolliver.
The degree of success we’ll see from this yrs team will depend on whether LDrew, as a coach, can coach this team to play as a team as fast as he once played as a player.
Astro Joe
October 24th, 2012
10:10 am
Vava, one of those guards will stick through the end of the year but I personally doubt that any will be brought back next summer. Unless, of course, LouWill becomes our starting PG. Otherwise, I suspect that we’ll have Lou & Jenkins as the primary SGs next season.
Melvin
October 24th, 2012
10:20 am
Astro,
Undersized SG are a dime a dozen. Just look at the Hawks roster as an example. If you are going to draft on potential (especially with a late 1st rnd pick) then why not draft a guy with unique talent? However, we will see how they develop over the next few years.
Astro Joe
October 24th, 2012
10:23 am
Melvin, I don’t know enough about PJ3 to know what his “unique talent” is. But Austin Daye will be available next summer for chump change… if that talent entails being a tall and skinny forward. Jenkins lead a major college conference in scoring for two consecutive years, so he isn’t exactly an unskilled and non-talented player.
Big Ray
October 24th, 2012
10:31 am
Big Ray, the discussion of the 2005 and 2006 drafts are about as dead as Tito Jackson’s singing career.
Yeah. But when the dead have been haunting you for this many years, it’s kinda hard to get past it. I’m so looking forward to next summer…
Big Ray
October 24th, 2012
10:35 am
Slimjr ,
I can’t see Al putting up 20 and 10. Maybe 15 and 10 if he stays healthy and is able to score consistently with that jumper. But haven’t heard a thing about him working on his post game.
And without a solid 2-move-minimum post game, Al isn’t gonna get there. He lacks the offensive talent.
And I think everybody’s right – with the center position going away from all-star balloting, Al probably won’t make the all-star squad. Because you don’t get there with 14/15 and 10, which is what I’m hoping he’ll provide for us this year.
Josh, on the other hand…if he has a year like last season, has got a very good chance.
Astro Joe
October 24th, 2012
10:37 am
Big Ray, except when you consider that CP3, Deron and Roy have ALL left their respective teams and I’m not sure that any of them have enjoyed 4-5 years of consecutive playoff appearances (maybe Roy, but he never advanced beyond the 1st round).
This horse has been beated into Elmer’s Glue.
Big Ray
October 24th, 2012
10:37 am
Astro Joe ,
It was Sund and/or his crew that selected John Jenkins, right? I don’t think that was Ferry’s move, but I honestly wasn’t paying enough attention to know.
I recall reading Jenkins’ draftexpress scouting report and being dismayed. Basically, the scouting report said he was athletically limited, probably wouldn’t be able to defend NBA guards (but had okay fundamentals) and would likely only be able to score if he was inserted the proper way into an offense in which he would fit (as a catch and shoot guy only).
Ouch. I see lots of minutes for Lou…
Astro Joe
October 24th, 2012
10:39 am
Al went for 15/10 with Joe and Jamal taking plenty of shots 2 years ago. IMO, 15/10 is Al’s floor, I’m expecting something closer to 18/11.
Big Ray
October 24th, 2012
10:43 am
AJ ,
When you consider that, you must consider a host of other possibilities. Considering who we’ve had running this team from ownership on down, there was a way to screw the pooch no matter who we had. But the fact remains that superstars give you a chance that nobody else does.
As for the dead horse, you complain about the beating of it. Some of us are complaining about the stench it still makes…I’m ready for somebody to drag the carcass away.
As I said, I look forward to next summer. Three major changes have happened, at least two of which HAD to happen (giving a real GM the necessary power to do his job/owners fade into the background, trading Joe, trading Marvin), more on the way.
Big Ray
October 24th, 2012
10:47 am
AJ ,
Do you really expect that in an LD offense? I mean, I’m sure Teague will have no problem deferring (:twisted:). But what about Lou/Harris/Morrow?
I would love for Al to put up 18 and 10. I think he can if he improves his offensive repertoire. For one thing, attack quickly against bigger opponents when he gets the ball away from the basket. We know he can hit that midrange jumper, as well. But the jab step has GOT TO GO, and he still has practically no back-to-the-basket game to speak of. Can’t score over anything but his right shoulder (or is it his left).
I guess my point is that he has to improve his offensive game, and I’m not at all convinced that we won’t see similar numbers of shots taken by the backcourt given that LD is coaching this team. They aren’t Joe and Jamal, but with LD acting all giddy after the last “shoot-fest” that turned into a preseason win….
Astro Joe
October 24th, 2012
10:55 am
Big Ray, yeah Ferry denied responsibility for that pick. And I would suggest that it would be challenging to find a glowing scouting report for any pick chosen in the 20s. I eman, there is a reason why those guys aren’t lottery selections, right? Either too short, too slow, too old or poorly skilled. Any of the other options being discussed came with issues as well.
Astro Joe
October 24th, 2012
11:02 am
Ray, Josh’s usage last seasonw ent up because Al wasn;t there. yes, he played better but mostly he had more opportunities. He won’t be the lone front court option on offense this year. So I expect his numbers to come down a hair and Al’s to improve from his last full season. Together, I don’t think they will allow the team dynamics to go back to the days of Joe, bibby, Fip/Jamal where Josh and Al were after thoughts while the guards feasted at will. If this is truly Josh’s team then the two bigs will surely be among the top3 players in FGAs on the team. And if Al continues to shoot more than 53%, he won’t need many shots to be int hat 17-18 point/night range. Lastly, Al should get even more open looks with the penetrating guards ont he team. Remember, Bibby & Hinrich were the main PGs when Al averaged 15 at around 55% shooting. And we all know that those guys were only slightly better than middle school PGs.
Ken Strickland
October 24th, 2012
11:02 am
I think Ferry drafted JJenkins because he wanted a SG of the future that could replace JJs outside shooting and potentially his scoring without being a ball and OFF stopper. Coming out of college everyone saw him potentially as another Reggie Miller type player, only shorter.
All of the negatives and attributes that were attributed to Reggie coming out of college have ironically been attributed to Jenkins as well. Just like Jenkins, Reggie’s DEF, athleticism, ability to create his own shot, and ball handling abilities were brought into question. Hopefully, Jenkins can make liers out of those who question his abilities just like Reggie has done.
I remember when fans, especially Knick fans, would shout our Cheryl, Cheryl, when Reggie had the ball. Well, it didn’t take long for him to silence them for good. He made them go from taunting him to fearing him, especially Knick fans.
SLIMJR-I know you can remember that.
vava74
October 24th, 2012
11:03 am
Big Ray,
So true, so true…
People talk about JJ as if the guy took as many shots as Kobe…
Did he slow down the pace sometimes and that ended up in some circumstances in bad shots from others?
Yep, but not to the level that he can be considered a ball hog killing any space for others to score.
Marvin passed the rock like a hot potato even when he was wide open…
Josh seemed to be taking this past year almost all shots that he wanted to…
Teague will probably continue to defer, event to a cardboard figure (unfortunately)…
Al simply got 8 out of 10 times sticky feet and could not get anything decent out of his possessions which were not open looks from the elbow and the baseline.
vava74
October 24th, 2012
11:10 am
And Lou, who will see between 30 to 32 minutes per game of daylight, will not cut down his usage…
Slimjr
October 24th, 2012
11:13 am
Ha ha ha Ken! Your so right.. We could not stand Reggie Miller!!!
Man did he give it right back to us! LOL!
MsDee
October 24th, 2012
11:17 am
Big Ray,
Horford is very very smart with the ball and he has the b-ball IQ to recognize when to use the jab step and when not. If a slower, unexperienced center/pf is guarding him, Horford tends to use his jab step and cut right to the basket for a major slam. (he showed this against Petro in practice on one of the videos on hawk.com and he also show this, I think, against the Spurs during one of the preseason games) He uses his quick spend towards the baseline when guys are guarding him too tight on the baseline, and he uses his little running hook shot when more experienced guys are guarding him. Now, granted, you and others on here may not always see those moves because guys like Josh and Joe would not CONSISTENTLY go to him enough for yall to see it on a regular basis but hopefully PG Teague & Harris will drop the ball down low on the post for Horford to display his moves more often this season. and if that becomes the case, I can see Horford avg 20/11 this season and making the ALLSTAR yet again, center position being closed and all!!
Ken Strickland
October 24th, 2012
11:20 am
Based on what has been said, it looks like my last comment on Ferry drafting Jenkins might be wrong. I’m not sure why Sund drafted him, unless he wanted to add a quailty shooter to replace Hinrich at SG on a jumpshooting team that didn’t shoot well. Sund probably figured Jenkins could start immediately and give us better and more efficient scoring than the 6.6PPG we got from Hinrich, and his DEF couldn’t be much worse.
Slimjr
October 24th, 2012
11:24 am
Big Ray, with these exceptional guards that we have on the floor with their ability to create shots for others Al will not have to worry about not having any post moves.. They will feed him as he makes cuts for dunks, layups, and wide open mid-range jumpers all day..
I expect Al’s free throw [nimbers] to rise because he will be attacking the interior as he follows his penetrating guards into the [forest]…
20 and 10 sounds very reasonable for Al! Ever hear of Magic to Worthy? heh heh heh
This team is going to win over 50-55 games.. They are going to surprise some people..
I’m looking at a 2nd or 3rd seed. No more than a less than a 4th.. Now everyone has to stay healthy, that’s the key
This Hawks team is going to be pretty good
Ken Strickland
October 24th, 2012
11:29 am
SLIMJR-Reggie on the floor and Spike Lee on the sidelines made Knick/Pacer games very exciting to watch, even if you weren’t a fan of either team. These are the dynamics that seem to be missing in todays NBA. Basketball fans that hated the Celts, Lakers, Bulls, Pistons, Knicks, 76ers, and Spurs, would tune in religiously to watch any matchups involving these teams.
Slimjr
October 24th, 2012
11:33 am
I meant to say [no less than a 4th seed]…..
Melvin
October 24th, 2012
11:37 am
I hope the days are long gone where Sund has any input/influences on this team/organization. I remember reading this summer where the Nets GM (King, I think) said that Joe Johnson was not even on his radar until Ferry became the Hawks GM job. It was Ferry not King that call and initiated the Joe trade to the Nets. That was just another indictment (in my eyes) that Sund was happy with the status quo of Billy Knight’s flaw core group.
Ken Strickland
October 24th, 2012
11:42 am
SLIMJR-Damn man, you’re focused, welcome to the forum. Adding Harris, Williams, Morrow and Korver gives us far more options than we’ve had in the past. Many question our DEF ability without JJ and Marvin, but Williams, Harris, and Morrow’s lack of height and size, compared to JJ, won’t necessarily hurt us defensively as much as some believe.
Their vastly superior speed, quickness and athleticism will help us create more steals, deflections and turnovers. As good as many think JJ and Marvin’s DEF was, they didn’t create many steals, turnovers or deflections between them. The fact that our OFF and DEF approach will be drastically different without JJ and Marvin doesn’t mean we won’t be just as effective.
MsDee
October 24th, 2012
11:52 am
Will the REAL slimjr, stand up, stand up!!
vava74
October 24th, 2012
11:52 am
MsDee:
“(he showed this against Petro in practice on one of the videos on hawk.com and he also show this, I think, against the Spurs during one of the preseason games)”
Getting by Petro means nothing. You could get by Petro, pick up a ladder, go up, slam it and Petro would still be motionless in the lane blinking his eyes.
The other slam was indeed a mega-slam against Marc Gasol, however, Gasol’s lateral “quickness” is not his forte.
“…may not always see those moves because guys like Josh and Joe would not CONSISTENTLY go to him enough for…”
Here it’s total nonsense. Josh always dishes willingly and has done it repeatedly and consistently to Horford in the past.
MsDee
October 24th, 2012
11:58 am
vava74
“Here it’s total nonsense. Josh always dishes willingly and has done it repeatedly and consistently to Horford in the past.”
Those passes u talking about Josh throwing were for fast break, quick passes to the basket, IM TALKING ABOUT THE PASSES GIVEN TO HIM ON THE POST! Now tell me when the last time Josh threw a pass to Horford on the post????
Rod from College Park
October 24th, 2012
11:59 am
“Al went for 15/10 with Joe and Jamal taking plenty of shots 2 years ago. IMO, 15/10 is Al’s floor, I’m expecting something closer to 18/11.”
Your post should read Al went for 15/10 because of Joe and Jamal. Majority of Al’s points that year came because of doubles on Joe and Jamal, leaving Al wide open for that set shot. When he was not left open (in the playoffs), he failed miserably. I hope 15/10 is his floor, but he has never done any better than that in his pro or college career.
Rod from College Park
October 24th, 2012
12:02 pm
“My guess is that Pierce and Garnett’s production will fall this year enough for them to consider Josh as a good selection if he is the main cog on a playoff bound team.”
Josh will never get voted in over KG no matter what he does, unless an injury is involved. Mainly because KG is a better player, even in his older age, and also because of the NBA politics.
Rod from College Park
October 24th, 2012
12:06 pm
“Those passes u talking about Josh throwing were for fast break, quick passes to the basket, IM TALKING ABOUT THE PASSES GIVEN TO HIM ON THE POST! Now tell me when the last time Josh threw a pass to Horford on the post????”
He can’t throw it to Horford in the post if Horford is standing at the free throw line. Answer this Ms. Dee. When is the last time you have seen Horford banging somebody in the post fighting for post position, and then calling for the ball? Maybe year one or year two?
O'Brien
October 24th, 2012
12:07 pm
Ken S,
Josh Smith is not a RFA. He is a free agent, and can sign outright with anybody he chooses, leaving the Hawks high and dry.
However, I don’t think that will happen. Either a) He resigns with us or b) we work out a sign and trade so that he can go to the team he wants (which I assume will be a good team that’s already over the cap), so they cannot sign him outright.
Just Joe
October 24th, 2012
12:16 pm
Rod is correct. In 2010/11, 2/3 of Al’s shot attempts were considered “jumpers”. I don’t have a problem with that though, because he made half of them. I don’t think we need to see Josh feeding Al in the post. Reversing those roles makes more sense.
Astro Joe
October 24th, 2012
12:19 pm
Horford and Josh both started taking more shots the moment LD installed his 5-man attack. There is little doubt that the head coach has built a scheme designed to support jump-shooters.
MsDee
October 24th, 2012
12:24 pm
Rod from College Park,
“When is the last time you have seen Horford banging somebody in the post fighting for post position, and then calling for the ball?”
NEVER, cause Josh nor Joe would give him the ball. So why in carnation would someone be banging like a nutcase if he KNOWS his teammates only looks for themselves??? U CANT TELL ME that Josh would basically over look Teague, Kirk and others JUST TO THROW A CROSS COURT PASS TO HIS BUDDY JOE JOHNSON!! Like I said b4, the ONLY time Josh would give the ball up to Horford is if and ONLY IF a design play was to hit Horford off a decour Joe, picking his man under the basket, running out to the wing, leaving Horford open under the basket, OR its a fast break with Josh running the break (instead of handing off to the PG and running the floor hisself) and he throws a nice log over the defense for a nice slam by Horford. Now if u are honest person & open-minded person who watches the Hawks games regularly, U WILL SEE THAT I AM TELLING THE TRUTH! If not, then well u can just fill in the blanks yourself!
Slimjr
October 24th, 2012
12:26 pm
lol @ Ms sexy Dee!
Yes Ken, the [Fan] has evolved just like the [Game] and [Society].. Less “hating” going on, at least I hope so through my rose colored glasses…Heh heh heh
You notice how NFL and NBA players help pull each other off the floor now? That did not happen a generation ago…
MsDee
October 24th, 2012
12:34 pm
Just Joe
“I don’t think we need to see Josh feeding Al in the post. Reversing those roles makes more sense.”
Now why would THAT make more sense when Josh acts like he is alergic to being in the post??? Both Josh AND Horford need to be fed the ball in the post, but Drew just isnt that kind of coach that demands his BIG men to post down low and have plays run to them in the post. I bet if we had a qualified coach leading this team, both guys would have stellar career numbers this season.
Slimjr
October 24th, 2012
12:35 pm
Just Joe, imho one of the worst kind of persons to employ is one who has one foot into retirement if his job is one that affects many others.. [Sund] reminds me of that type of employee..
MsDee
October 24th, 2012
12:36 pm
Astro Joe
October 24th, 2012
12:37 pm
MsDee, I noticed that no one challenged the part of your equation that had Josh on the perimeter.
Lir(Dominican)
October 24th, 2012
12:39 pm
http://hangtime.blogs.nba.com/2012/10/23/ricks-tips-top-10-fantasy-centers/ one for the haterz
vava74
October 24th, 2012
12:40 pm
MsDee,
I would venture in saying that you are beyond dead wrong.
My recollection is that on or around 7 out 10 Horford’s buckets in the paint were coming out of passes by Josh.
Josh is a WILLING passer with a sole exception: on fast breaks, where he is neither here nor there. Sometimes he tries too much to make his own play, sometimes he tries to make passes which are too difficult, sometimes he does not try anything and just has a major brain f@rt.
Astro Joe
October 24th, 2012
12:50 pm
My recollection is that on or around 7 out 10 Horford’s buckets in the paint were coming out of passes by Josh.
Wouldn’t that imply that Josh was averaging at least 7 assists?
MsDee
October 24th, 2012
1:16 pm
vava74,
“My recollection is that on or around 7 out 10 Horford’s buckets in the paint were coming out of passes by Josh.”
Well, your “recollection” is SO WRONG AND MISGUIDED!!
EXACTLY, Astro Joe..vava74 is just making post and no sense
corporate tv ball sux
October 24th, 2012
1:17 pm
former st.louis hawk point guard slater martin. http://www.legacy.com/obituaries/onlineathens/obituary.aspx?n=slater-martin&pid=160519173#fbLoggedOut
MsDee
October 24th, 2012
1:21 pm
vava74,
U still have YET to answer my question,
Those passes u talking about Josh throwing were for fast break, quick passes to the basket, IM TALKING ABOUT THE PASSES GIVEN TO HIM ON THE POST! Now tell me when the last time Josh threw a pass to Horford on the post????
And PLEASE leave your “recollection” out of this cause THAT WOULD THEN BE DEAD WRONG….”7 out 10 Horford’s buckets in the paint were coming out of passes by Josh???” Yea right!!
The Truth
October 24th, 2012
1:24 pm
Entertaining read previewing the Hawks: Enjoy
http://www.hardwoodparoxysm.com/2012/10/24/the-hardwood-paroxysm-2012-2013-season-preview-the-atlanta-hawks/
Buddy Grizzard
October 24th, 2012
1:58 pm
“Now tell me when the last time Josh threw a pass to Horford on the post????”
Josh throws entry passes to Al all the time. When Al had all those 4th quarter baskets in Game 6, it was Josh’s passing that set up more than one. I don’t know about 7 out of 10 but yes, Josh hits Al in the post. And yes, they should take turns being the entry passer and the post player. This is what’s great about having shooters to spread the floor because it is going to open up the middle for both of them to go to work.
MsDee
October 24th, 2012
2:05 pm
Buddy Grizzard,
There is a difference between entry passes and passes given to a post player actually posting up. Josh does NOT those Horford passes in the post “all the time” as u say. He throws, “entry passes” as u say.
Buddy Grizzard
October 24th, 2012
2:06 pm
“I actually think Buddy’s guy, Ezeli, is the one who appears to be the greater miss (more so than PJ3). He looks like a legit defensive big man in the very, very early stages of his career.”
I haven’t had a chance to catch Ezeli in the preseason. He must look pretty good if you think he’s a bigger miss than PJ3 who is averaging like 13ppg in the preseason.
Buddy Grizzard
October 24th, 2012
2:08 pm
MsDee you’re going to see a lot of both players passing to each other all season… stay tuned! And I think Al is going to surprise you with his effort to post up this season, although I don’t see any major technical improvements (i.e. new moves).
MsDee
October 24th, 2012
2:08 pm
Correction::
Entry passes ARE the same as post passes, MY MISTAKE, AND I CAN AMENT TO MAKING A MISTAKE, but that still doesnt change the fact that Josh does NOT make post passes/entry passes to Horford, “all the time” as u put it. He make fast break / cutting passes to the basket to Horford. NEVER POST PASSES
Buddy Grizzard
October 24th, 2012
2:09 pm
Josh wants to win. Al wants to win. Lou wants to win. Joe and Marvin want to play golf. Josh has no problem passing to a team mate he knows is playing his ass off to get that W.
Just Joe
October 24th, 2012
2:09 pm
Slim…I agree. Sund was an awful hire from the fans’ point of view. However, he was the perfect “corporate” man for the job. The owners wanted control of this franchise, and Rick Sund was the guy that didn’t mind taking the heat for their moves. Sund’s job was to put a playoff team on the floor while keeping this team out of the luxury tax. When Sund went just in to the tax last year, he had to sell another draft pick to make that money back. Fans will hate Rick Sund, while the ASG (and maybe even other GM’s) will appreciate his body of work.
Buddy Grizzard
October 24th, 2012
2:10 pm
Have to disagree MsDee but I’ll have to find examples later… lunch over
northcyde
October 24th, 2012
2:13 pm
I need to break out the Synergy to see all of these entry passes to Al in the post. Because my gut instinct is that MsDee is right. Josh threw the ball to Al on fast breaks, not within the set offense.
I’m sure that Josh did it a little, but not 7 out of 10 times on Al post scores.
Yeah, let me put up Synergy and look at Josh’s 2010 – 11 assists right quick. Looking at last year’s may be too small of a sample size.
MsDee
October 24th, 2012
2:13 pm
Buddy Grizzard,
If u say u have actually seen Josh ON THE WING pass the ball down to Horford WHILE posting up, yea, i guess we have to disagree cause u must be seeing another team cause Josh is NEVER on Horford’s side of the court to bounce a pass to Horford while he is on the post.
MsDee
October 24th, 2012
2:18 pm
Buddy Grizzard,
“Josh wants to win. Al wants to win. Lou wants to win. Joe and Marvin want to play golf. Josh has no problem passing to a team mate he knows is playing his ass off to get that W.”
This statement is VERY VERY TRUE, but when Josh decides to make plays OUTSIDE OF THE PLAYS ALREADY IN THE MINES OF THE OTHER 4 PLAYERS ON THE COURT, he then take matters into his own hands which cause Horford to not be in position to post or bang for the ball cause Horford nor anybody else on the court knows exactly what Josh is about to do..heck, Josh doesnt always know what he is about to do..he just does things on the fly.
MsDee
October 24th, 2012
2:19 pm
And plays like that will ALWAYS keep Josh off the ALLSTAR list. No matter how great his numbers are at that point in the season. Josh needs to learn SELF-CONTROL!!
northcyde
October 24th, 2012
2:20 pm
And just to let some of you know. When viewing clips of assists, I can see who Josh passed it to, and in what situation. I’m looking at the 2010 – 11 season right now. And this will cover BOTH regular season and playoffs.
Just Joe
October 24th, 2012
2:23 pm
I’m not even sure why we would ask Josh to throw entry passes in to the low post. Joe, Teague, Hinrich, sure. If I’ve got Josh facing the basket with the ball in his hands, I’m hoping he’s getting ready to take his man off the dribble, which means Al needs to be on the other side of the floor. What happened most of the time though, is that Josh took the jumper instead.
northcyde
October 24th, 2012
2:48 pm
OK . . . I counted 43 assists from Smith to Horford in 2010 – 11 season
17 came via Horford “cutting” to the basket . . . although on some of these plays, it was simply Josh driving into the paint, then finding an open Horford for the dunk or layup.
15 came via “transition”, with Josh usually dribbling once, then throwing a long pass to Horford for the easy score
8 came via a “spot up jumper”, with Josh either making the extra pass to a wide open Horford, or Josh passing out of a drive or from the post, out to Horford for a midrange jumper
3 came from “post ups” by Horford, by receiving an entry pass from Smith, and Horford makes a move to score
***************************
So this wasn’t as dramatic as I thought it would be with Josh mainly feeding Al in transition. And those “cut” assists Josh threw to Al came with Smith being on the outside and finding a cutting to the basket Al.
Smith has always been a good high post passer. But when people sag off of him to prevent the easy cut opportunity by Horford, Smith is left wide open for an 18 footer.
With 3 PGs on the team now, we’ll see how much of Josh running the offense in the high post we’ll see.
I will say this though. If you count Horford’s cut scores ( in which he is in the paint or barely outside it when he receives the ball ) and add them to his post up scores, that means that 20 of Josh’s 43 total assists to Horford came with Josh “throwing the ball on the inside”.
cp
October 24th, 2012
2:53 pm
Jenkins wasn’t even considered the best NBA prospect on his team. I hope he ends up as a solid player but I wont be shocked if a few years down the road he will be another name in a long list of “the Hawks passed up on _____ to take”".
I’m ready for the season to start. One thing I hope to see an improvement with LD is feel for the game. Too often he would leave guys on the court too long or pull guys too quick. There were times last year were Marvin would come out and score a quick 6 or so points but get pulled. Then it would take LD forever to get him back in the game. This also happened with Teague on occasion.
Slimjr
October 24th, 2012
3:08 pm
We, obviously not [Sund] may regret not drafting PJ3! The 6′11″ small forward with skills to match!
But so will 26 other teams… This guy is special… Jenkins, we will see….
Astro Joe
October 24th, 2012
3:16 pm
I haven’t had a chance to catch Ezeli in the preseason. He must look pretty good if you think he’s a bigger miss than PJ3 who is averaging like 13ppg in the preseason.
Not based on points as much as based on a long-term Hawks need. And Ezeli looks like he could contribute immediately as a solid defensive center. I’m not really feeling like we need more offense on this roster (today or tomorrow) as much as we need someone to stop the opposition from scoring 105+ points/game. Generally speaking, quality centers are always harder to find than quality wing players.
Astro Joe
October 24th, 2012
3:19 pm
Josh wants to win. Al wants to win. Lou wants to win. Joe and Marvin want to play golf. Josh has no problem passing to a team mate he knows is playing his ass off to get that W.
So he doesn’t believe the PGs who can run a fast break infinitely better than he can want to win? Is that why he refuses to pass to them?
MsDee
October 24th, 2012
3:23 pm
Wow, excellent question, Astro Joe
i_am_soulstar
October 24th, 2012
3:24 pm
Speaking of Josh as an All-Star, I wonder if the change in all-star balloting will help his chances in the All-Star game. NBA’s allowing us to pick 3 undefined bigs instead of 2 forwards and one center. This link doesn’t stay, but assuming that Josh won’t get picked to start, I’m wondering if coaches will pick reserves in the same way.
On the other side, I wonder if Al Horford will still get picked since there’s no longer a center-only vote.
http://www.nba.com/2012/news/10/23/all-star-centers-ballot/index.html?ls=iref:nbahpts
Rod from College Park
October 24th, 2012
3:33 pm
“I need to break out the Synergy to see all of these entry passes to Al in the post. Because my gut instinct is that MsDee is right. Josh threw the ball to Al on fast breaks, not within the set offense.”
I saw the results, and really am not blaming either player as Ms. Dee is. Most of the time, Josh is not throwing to Al in the post #1, because Al has a very limited post game, and #2 because the plays that the coach called did not call for Josh to throw the ball to Al in the post. I can recall Al getting the ball in the post, and passing the ball like a hot potato, because the play called was not designed for him to post his man and score. Post moves are not Al’s forte, so why would the coach design plays for Al to try to take his man in the post. Makes no sense.
Slimjr
October 24th, 2012
3:35 pm
Josh will have to learn to trust his guards! Its part of the maturation process..If he wanted to do it all, he should have picked up Golf Club like Tiger Woods…
FYI ANDY REID is 12-0 coming of a by-week.. Oh the Humanity….
Rod from College Park
October 24th, 2012
3:45 pm
“So he doesn’t believe the PGs who can run a fast break infinitely better than he can want to win? Is that why he refuses to pass to them?”
He refuses to pass to them because Teague is not a great passer either, and for some strange reason our coaches, as well as our old and new GM have both said that Josh is special because of his ability to pass the ball and initiate the offense off the defensive glass. Maybe if LD, Woody, Sund, and Ferry would stop encouraging the bigs to bring the ball up the floor (Including Horford) then Josh would stop doing it. I guess some of us, especially you Astro Joe, know much more about the game of basketball than these guys do.
Astro Joe
October 24th, 2012
3:50 pm
Rod, I guess so, because it is pretty clear that he is a much better finisher than a fast break facilitator and he doesn’t have the handle to do both (dribble in traffic and finish). Next time I see an opening for GM or head coach on monster.com, I’ll be sure to apply for the gig.
Oh and the notion that he feels like he is a better option to lead a break than Teague is truly frightening. One thing not to believe that Teague can do it in a Jason Kidd fashion, quite another to choose yourself over Teague.
MsDee
October 24th, 2012
4:09 pm
Chris Vivlamore @ajchawks
About to go on 92.9 The Game to talk #Hawks.
Grandad
October 24th, 2012
4:23 pm
northcyde
I had to review to conversation before I could jump in.
You are the stat-Meister;
so I gladly yield to your synergy post above.
Accordingly:
I wish to enhance your point of view from my perspective
as a basketball proficient [n].
Josh & Al have chemistry; that is undeniable.
Both Josh plus Al look for each other;
a fact that goes overlooked on this blog.
Both are ” dandy ` passers ` !
Both are undersized bigs that see the floor, have speed and quickness,
can put the ball on the floor, yet are not *physical at the pt of attack.
*[in the traditional sense of a true low post Center / old school]
This Chemistry plus the speed & quickness has been
grossly underutilized by both Wdsn as well as LD.
As an offensive tactician;
I can tell you with certainty that the High / Low attack;
(particularly the high-low feed, Astro Joe) is impossible to defend
when executed properly.
Grandad speaks
vava74
October 24th, 2012
4:24 pm
thank you northcyde,
You were coming from a prejudicious angle but ended up proving my point.
In addition to what you say, you must take into consideration that so few of Josh’s assists are post ups by Horford simply because he does not post up.
You would need to check how many of Al’s post ups generated assists and who assisted on those plays in order to determine if Josh was or was not a guy perfectly wiling to make entry passes in the post.
Also, if a player makes entry passes to a player posting up, that means that the player passing the rock is in the perimeter.
Since Josh has a lot of assist to cutters and spot shooters, that means tht he is in the low post, so unable to “feed the post” himself.
For the the stats which are important are the assists to a cutting Horford and the fast break assists.
Those price that Josh passes to Al willing and consistently so he can score in the paint, which includes both category of baskets mentioned.
Astro Joe
October 24th, 2012
4:27 pm
Grandad, I think you menat “Just Joe” who accurately suggested Horford feed Josh in the post. If they double, Josh has very good passing skills to one of the 3-4 above avergae shooters who will be on the floor with him. And if not, he should be able to convert over most defending PFs. Makes sense to me. And with the likelihood that we’ll be walking the ball up the floor after the opposing team converts a basket, I would love to see that used quite often in the half-court sets (along with pick & roll plays). I’m done with this 5-man attack nonsense.
Grandad
October 24th, 2012
4:29 pm
There is a reason we drafted JohnJenkins.
Let it play out with our [2013/14] Coach;
before everyone makes a snap judgement.
vava74
October 24th, 2012
4:29 pm
For me
Those prove
Sorry for the typos
TMACfan
October 24th, 2012
4:34 pm
Some Hawks love.
http://blogs.thescore.com/tbj/2012/10/24/the-tbj-2012-13-nba-season-prediction-countdown-9-7/
Slimjr
October 24th, 2012
4:38 pm
Grandad I don’t mean to be a jack-azz but the Hawks drafted that 7′4″ giant Priest Lauderdale for a reason. heh heh heh
Grandad
October 24th, 2012
4:40 pm
AJ
My most sincere apology, ` twas in fact Just Joe,
to whom I was referring.
Although, Do not get down on 5 man basketball just yet.
Every aspect of the game is incorporated into:
*5 man
*motion
*princeton
*etc
Including the Pick and Roll & especially the Post up game.
Remember;
“it`s not what the offense itself does … it`s what LD emphasizes.
Just Joe
October 24th, 2012
4:42 pm
Now somebody figure out if a Teague/Harris/James/Smith/Horford lineup can score efficiently in the half court. What’s your sets? Can we operate within that limited spacing given that I’m not even sure you can call Teague & Harris “average” 3-pt shooters?
Grandad
October 24th, 2012
4:47 pm
Slimjr
Do not ever worry about being a a ” jack-azz “;;;;;
when responding to me.
As I am a self proclaimed Jack-Ass ! [`tis my nature]
Slimmer :::::
Now In Response To Your Response :::::
Danny Ferry -did not- draft Priest Lauderdale.
I believe in Mr Ferry and the fact – he has a plan !
Just Joe
October 24th, 2012
4:47 pm
Same question above goes for those wanting a starting lineup of Teague/Harris/Smith/Horford/Pachulia.
Besides the fact that it brings Petro in to play, how will the offense work?
Last year, we saw LD go with Teague/Hinrich/Joe/Josh/ZaZa because having the shooters on the wings made his offense flow.
Can LD adapt his offense to account for a non-shooter like James or Josh on the wing?
Rod from College Park
October 24th, 2012
4:50 pm
“Oh and the notion that he feels like he is a better option to lead a break than Teague is truly frightening. One thing not to believe that Teague can do it in a Jason Kidd fashion, quite another to choose yourself over Teague.”
Not saying I agree or disagree, but I have heard both coaches and both GM praise Josh for that ability. During the regular season last year Teague averaged 4.9 apg, and 4.2apg during the playoffs while Josh averaged 3.9apg during the regular season and 4.8apg during the playoffs. Based on those numbers, can we really say that Teague distrubutes the ball better than Josh? He did not in the playoffs, when it mattered.
Grandad
October 24th, 2012
4:51 pm
Just Joe
If it were me;
I would have Jenkins, Morrow or KKorver on the floor with James.,
depending on the match-up at the [2].
Such is the beauty of flexibility.
Grandad
October 24th, 2012
4:59 pm
Just Joe
Anytime you manipulate the front-line,
the Coach must at the same time adjust his guards accordingly.
Also;
starting Zaza, does not necessarily bring JPet inot play.
As Ivan is available with MScott and Horford versatility,
therefore Petro never has to see the ct regardless of who starts.
One is not limited by the number [5] pos attached somewhere
in the air.
Najeh Davenpoop
October 24th, 2012
4:59 pm
“Now tell me when the last time Josh threw a pass to Horford on the post????”
Josh threw a beautiful alley-oop to Al in Game 4 of this past playoffs. It was Al’s first game back from injury if I’m not mistaken.
Both of them are arguably top 5 in the league among big men when it comes to passing (the Gasol brothers are also up there). If the offense is run through them, good things should happen this year.
Najeh Davenpoop
October 24th, 2012
5:00 pm
More love from the Hawks, this time from ESPN, who picks the Hawks to finish #2 in the Eastern Conference (!!!!). Funny how we have complained for years that the Hawks don’t get enough national media love, and now the national media seems to be if anything more bullish on the Hawks than we are.
Grandad
October 24th, 2012
5:01 pm
into … I not mean to write inot, I meant to write into instaed.
Just Joe
October 24th, 2012
5:01 pm
That’s true about Petro not having to come in to play, but so far, LD has refused to use Al to defend opposing centers when going with this “big” lineup. If that continues, then Petro will have to suit up.
Grandad
October 24th, 2012
5:03 pm
@ 4:59 pm so many typos and bad grammar,
it`s virtually un-intelligible.
vava74
October 24th, 2012
5:15 pm
Najeh,
The media being bullish about the Hawks worries me.
The always select at least on hype team to have a good showing which the bombs.
vava74
October 24th, 2012
5:17 pm
Najeh,
I note your remark about good things happening if we play through the post …
The problem is that LD and Ferry are on the record with the statement that our offence will go through our guards…
This is worrying since I must be blind. I though that JJ was playing 90% of the time in the backcourt.
Buddy Grizzard
October 24th, 2012
6:28 pm
“Not based on points as much as based on a long-term Hawks need. And Ezeli looks like he could contribute immediately as a solid defensive center. I’m not really feeling like we need more offense on this roster (today or tomorrow) as much as we need someone to stop the opposition from scoring 105+ points/game. Generally speaking, quality centers are always harder to find than quality wing players.”
That’s exactly why I hoped the Hawks would draft him, and why I was pissed at the Jenkins pick. Volume shooters that can’t play D are a dime a dozen. 7 footers who physically dominated the overall #1 pick last year are not.
Ken Strickland
October 24th, 2012
6:37 pm
SLIMJR-You got that right. I remember when KWashington, I believe that was his name, took a swing at Rudy T and shattered his jaw so badly he had to have reconstructive surgery. Neither player was the same after that. That event also seemed to curtail the extreme violence in the NBA.
I also remember DDawkins taking a swing at somebody, but he missed and knocked his own teammate out of the gm. Those types of events seemed to have curtailed the extreme violance in the NBA after that.
OBRIEN-I’m aware of Josh not being a RFA. If I said he was it was a mistake because Teague is our only RFA.