Atlanta Hawks: Former coach Bob Weiss returns as adviser

Going back to my original theory that the “Boss Al” issue is more related to LD than it is to Al… the year that LD took over the reigns of the team, both Al AND Josh saw their FTAs go down AND their offensive rebounding average decrease from the last season with Woody in charge. Why would their FTAs go down? Because they were shooting fewer shots in the paint… both of them. But here’s the thing, while Al took more jumpers, his FG% actually went up slightly. Smith’s went down by almost 30 percentage points. LD decided to stop crashing the boards (one of the reasons the Woody teams were very efficient on offense was because they were among the better offensive rebounding teams) to support better transition defense. Al’s defensive rebounding stayed flat (year-over-year) while Josh’s improved. Combined, their total rebounding averages stayed relatively flat.

If LD decides (as Ferry has suggested) to run the offense more through the PGs (a novel concept) Josh’s assists numbers will likely decrease. Should we take shots at Josh because he isn’t producing so many assists or should we consider that his boss has asked him to play the game differently?

I think the whole assertion that Horford has gone soft is mostly due to Al being a guy who executes his head coach’s strategy. If you want Al to play differently, then you should point your finger to the head coach.

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“If I were ferry, i would plant o bring in 2 players better than those 3 next summer.”

Josh Smith and Al Horford will both be All-Stars this year. They are both in the top 30 in the league. Please tell me your strategy for how we’re going to bring in two players in the top 20.

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Here are some additional stats to support what was said, and what I’ve said as well, about Horford’s return replacing the bulk of JJs production. I used their 2010 production since Horford missed most of the 2011 season. JJ(Horford)

MINS 35.5(35.1)
PPG 18.2(15.3)
RPG 4.0(9.3)
APG 4.7(3.5)
SPG .65(.77)
BPG .10(1.04)
TOPG 2.0(1.5)
FGA 16.1(12)
FG% 44.3(55.7)

As you can see, Horford’s return to the starting lineup definitely replaces most of JJs OFF and DEF production, but in different ways. Horford gives us superior rebounding, which is something we sorely need more than JJs points. He also gives us better interior OFF and DEF, and like JJ, he’s a very good passer. He also replaces JJs DEF, but in a different way.

Their scoring difference is due to JJ taking and making more 2pt and 3pt attempts. And even with the significant disparity in shot attempts, there was only a 2.9PPG difference. That’s the equivelant of averaging1 made 3pt FG per gm, which JJ did. With Horford surely getting some of JJs shot attempts, his above average FG% should allow him to equal or exceed JJs pt production.

With the very high likelihood of there being more ball and player movement with JJ gone, and with us playing an uptemp fast breaking style, Horford’s assists should also increase. With his advantage over JJ in rebounding, steals, and blocks, he will contribute just as much defensively, if not more. Watch and see, in Teague, Josh and AL, we’re going to have 3 All Star candidates this yr.

As far as JJs assists, 3pt shooting and ball handling is concerned, we’ve added 3 players(Korver, Morrow, Jenkins)that shoot a higher 3pt FG%, and 2 players(Harris, LWilliams) to replace his assists and ball handling. The return of Horford and the aquisition of LWilliams, DHarris, and JJenkins will make this yrs team better than last yrs team.

We’ll lose some perimeter DEF with JJ gone, but we’ll more than make that up with the much better interior DEF and rebounding we’ll get with the return of Horford.

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This yrs training camp and preseason will be very interesting and exciting in deed. Which Bigs, out of Benson, Williams, Scott, and Petro, will make the cut. Which guards, out of Stephenson, Jenkins, and Morrow, will either make the cut or get traded for a SF before the season starts, assuming we make a trade. If we don’t trade for a starting SF, who will get the nod out of the players we have?

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Ra’mon

August 29th, 2012
2:58 pm

“KenS, Your list for reasons of keeping Al over Josh is full of so many things not backed up by actual stats.

1-is just as good at rebounding, — Josh is actually a better rebounder than Al, but Josh has always be responsible for getting back on defense to hinder any fast break opportunities. So Al always have gotten more OPPORTUNITIES on the offensive boards.
2-can play OC and PF equally as effectively, – This is a false statement. I did the calculations (you can do them yourself if you like). In all of the games (not even including the playoffs) that Al played PF in 2010-2011 (season before he was injured), Al averaged a whopping 12 PPG and 7.6 RPG. This is at his ‘natural position’ that you claim. That sounds like all star numbers doesn’t it? And in the playoffs where Al started exclusively at the PF position – Al averaged 11.3 PPG and 9.6 RPG while shooting 42% from the field.

3-is a much more efficient and effective scorer, – You can not be considered an effective scorer if you can not create your own shot. And if when you’re at PF or C, you can’t do any better than averaging 12 ppg, that is not a ‘SCORER’. I’ve never known of an effective scorer who averaged 12 ppg.

4-is a much better option as a stretch 4, – A stretch 4? How are you a stretch 4 and only shoots 42% from the field in the playoffs at the 4 position? What are you stretching there? Also who was the last stretch 4 to win a title? (Dirk isn’t a stretch 4, he is a scorer that’s different). You don’t pay a stretch 4 $12 million a season.

5-is just as effective as a passer since he generates fewer turnovers- How is he an effective passer when he can’t facilitate for himself or others. There are assists that come in the frame of the offense. And assists that come making a play. Aside from the one regular season Chicago game, Al doesn’t make plays. Al points come off of offense created by others.

6-is far more mature and far less tempermental – Have you ever had a conversation with Al or Josh? LD stated Josh was the first out of ALL of the players including Bibby, who’s basketball iq is never questioned, to learn the playbook. And then on top of that, on the off season after getting the closest to the ECF this franchise has ever been, Al reports to camp OUT OF BASKETBALL SHAPE. How is that mature? When Josh gained weight, it wasn’t because he wasn’t working out, it was so he could defend more in the post. Al just showed up not in premium shape, opposed to Josh, Joe, and Teague.

7-doesn’t lose focus and take plays off while arguing with the refs, – Name an all star in the league who really cares, and never loses focus for a play or two while talking with referee? Lebron, Kobe, Wade, Durant, Dirk, Melo, Rose, KG, Pierce, and Duncan have all been seen taking a play to talk to a ref, and it results in the opposition scores. Guess you don’t want those guys either.

8-is far more physical and capable of defending and scoring over bigger and taller players- This one is funny. So why couldn’t he score over Taj Gibson, Boozer, or Brandon Bass? And why was he shut down after Amare called Al out? Yet, Chicago puts their best defender in Noah on Josh, and Josh still go for career numbers in a series? Boston puts KG on Josh, and Josh still have great numbers while playing on one knee after being hurt.
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9-has been recognized by coaches, players and writers, and rewarded for his attributes, while Josh has been all but ignored because of his continued immaturity despite having All Star caliber talent and production. – Al was recognized because of injuries, and the fact that he plays a different position. A 12 pts, 9 reb center in the league, may get you into the all star game. However a 12 pt, 9 reb FORWARD won’t get you into any all star game. THAT is why Al made all star game.

10-has led the Hawks to the playoffs every yr since his arrival, when Josh and JJ couldn’t sniff the playoffs before his arrival. – Wrong. Al did not LEAD the Hawks into the playoffs. Was Al more effective than Sheldon Williams, of course. But the Hawks made the playoffs the first year more because of Mike Bibby’s presence. The Hawks were in the 9-10th seed before the all star break when Bibby was required. There’s a difference between LEADING and being an able body on a good team. IF he lead the team to the playoffs, how did they still manage to get a four seed without him playing majority of the season? I assure you, Chicago will not get the number 1 seed without Rose this season.

Al is a really good ROLE player. But making him out to be some sort of franchise savior is just wrong. I’ve never seen a player average 12 ppg for 5 seasons, and be considered so wonderful. Al is a pretty good center. I really like Al at the center position. However, Al is an average power forward. And he’s not a true difference maker.”

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OB:

“Since Al came to the Hawks, he has been nothing more than a #3 or #4 option, behind JJ, Josh and Jamal. But even as a #4 option, Al still managed to put up 15 and 10 2 seasons ago.”

That is because Horford was wide open to use his SLOW but effective set shot from the elbow and the baseline.

Without the double teams on JJ, Jamal or Josh, Al will have SUBSTANTIALLY less time and space to hit those shots.

In 2010/11 the scouting was WAY BEHIND on Horford’s midrange game (which he still did not have at that level in the 2009/10 season).

I had league pass for that season and opposing color commentators were ALL saying at the beginning of the games that their teams could live with Horford shooting from there (as they continue to say – correctly I must point out – about Josh).

By the time the playoffs came and Horford played PF and had opponents quicker and more willing to close out, his FG% dropped dramatically.

Horford is a very good player, but his offense is still limited and, unless he has dramatically evolved, he can only be a #3 or #4 guy on the shots pecking order.

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The point most of you clowns don’t get with Horford is that he shoots a high percentage in the REGULAR season, and scores most of his points because of Josh and Joe, and because he plays center. Everything changes ins the postseason when teams account for him. He is not good at creating his own shot. He has no post game. He is basically a stand still jump shooter. He gets free because when he plays center, other centers don’t come out on the perimeter, and because teams double Joe and Josh which leaves him open. He also gets open alot off of high screen and rolls or screen and pops. He should be commended for improving his jump shot, but his defense and offensive abilities especially in the post are lacking. If we do play at a faster tempo this year, it helps him also because he is active on the glass and very mobile. I would be willing to bet that a high percentage of his points have been off of assist from Joe or Josh.

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Strickland, nope, all of Joe’s All Star appearances came by way of the conference coaches. He started one game because Wade (I think) was injured a few days before the actual game… so he was named a starter. Joe never received more votes than Iverson or Wade. I’m guessing that the last Hawk voted into the All-Star game was maybe ‘Nique (I doubt Dikembe got love in front of Ewing, Mourning or Shaq). It would take long-term injuries to guys like Lebron, Carmelo, Pierce, KG, Bosh and Stoudemire for Josh to be selected by fans. It isn’t about who’s better, it’s about who has the biggest brand (and team fan base). Knicks, Celtics and Heat will likely be on national TV a little bit more than the hawks (he added sarcastically).

Rod, yeah, I saw those flaws from Al in that single road game in Boston. And that was Game 6 in Boston, not Game 5 in Atlanta. Game 6 was when Josh decided to hoist a bad jumper in the last few seconds (trying to make the winning play instead of making the winning pass). In the last two playoff games against the Celtics, Josh got a technical foul will sitting at the scorer’s table, made the awful pass that Rondo stole (both Game 5 in Atlanta) and then capped the finale with the awful decision to shoot a jumper in the waning moments in Game 6 in Boston.

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Why the F don’t we just bring back T-Mac on a one year deal and call it a day? The fact that DF hasnt done this yet makes me think he has a couple trade scenarios planned for September.

Smith and Horford will both have career years. Teague I’m not fully convinced about yet. I like the Devin Harris pickup just in case. Lou Will is a baller. Anthony Morrow should be good trade bait, and we need to get Jenkins as much playing time as possible. Who else is hoping DeShawn Stevenson shows some early promise so we can ship his ass out and get something worthwhile in return? Nobody has yet mentioned that Al would be a good fit at the 3. Was I the only one who saw him shut down Rondo on that end-game possession in the playoffs? Plus Al has one of the best mid-range jumpers in all of basketball. He showed he has quick feet, he’s about the same height/size as Marvin was, AND all the people infatuated with Josh(me included) won’t have to bitch about how Josh is not a 3 and is much better suited for the 4. We could then start Zaza, play Ivan backup minutes at Center, and maybe acquire someone not named Petro to assist there as well. I think a rotation of Al, Mike Scott and Korver would be a playable rotation at the 3 both offensively and defensively.

Also, if I have to read the phrase “ANAL MINDED MORON” one more time I think I might shoot myself in the face. Just sayin…

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“Rod, yeah, I saw those flaws from Al in that single road game in Boston. And that was Game 6 in Boston, not Game 5 in Atlanta. Game 6 was when Josh decided to hoist a bad jumper in the last few seconds (trying to make the winning play instead of making the winning pass). In the last two playoff games against the Celtics, Josh got a technical foul will sitting at the scorer’s table, made the awful pass that Rondo stole (both Game 5 in Atlanta) and then capped the finale with the awful decision to shoot a jumper in the waning moments in Game 6 in Boston.”

That was a closeout game. That was THE game. He makes that freethrow, we go to overtime and win the game, none of the other stuff matters. I guess you also failed to see the many turnovers and bad passes and missed layups at the end of the game that our star player Joe Johnson had. Horford missed the free throw to send the game into overtime. No getting around that.

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That is why his assist numbers are good because he passes that rock like a hot potato, if the jump shot is not there.

He sets up a teammate for a better shot when he doesn’t have one? Yeah… who would want that kind of player on their team?

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Al does not have a handle that allows him to reset and acquire new realstate that is required to get your shot off if your 1st shot attempt is contested/defended..

He has no choice but to give it up and make the pass…

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“For some reason, we’ve seen LD try to protect Al from the more physical matchups.”

Yes, LD is obsessed with protecting Al from foul trouble, even though he has one of the lowest foul rates among power rotation players in the league. Part of that low foul rate is that LD has made Al afraid to play physical for fear of being yanked from games.

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Buddy, Kenneth Faried?

I’ll get back to you.

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28-47 against the winners means as Ra’mon brilliantly put it ALLStar Al- ALL NBA game makes no difference..

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Just Joe, thanks, you proved my point precisely. You are holding Horford accountable for LD’s strategy.

You are clearly reflecting on the Magic series from 2011. LD used what I have called the “disposable big man” ploy to defend the handful of bigger low post threats. Instead of exposing Horford to the foul trouble that comes when guarding those players, he sent out guys who are of very little value on the offensive end, guys like Etan, Hilton, Collins and Damp. That is LD’s decision, likely because Horford is too valuable on the offensive end (at worse making those annoying assists to teammates) to lose to foul trouble. In the last playoff series, you may recall that both Zaza AND Al missed time (Zaza the entire series), which placed undue burden on Josh. You will have to ask LD why Ivan wasn’t deployed to help out on KG, who clearly had his way in that series.

But again, LD made the decision not to ask Horford to bang Howard during that series. And considering it was the only time in the recent playoff era where the Hawks defeated a higher seeded team in the post-season, I can’t too much complain with LD’s use of the disposable big men.

Oh and my guess, you will see Jason collins spend a fair amount of time defending Bynum this season… so KG doesn’t have to try and hold his ground against the bulkier and skilled low-post threat.

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Ah, the old LD’s strategy calls for that argument. You sure don’t make those provisions for other players. LD offenense call for Josh to be on the perimeter and shoot jump shots if he is open. LD also stated when Jamal was her that Jamal’s role was to come in the game and score. I don’t see you defending eith of those guys. LOL

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Rod, I just said earlier today that Josh’s increase in jump shots is related to LD’s offensive schemes. I also said just today that his decreasein FTAs is related to LD’s offensive scheme. And I am not fixated on any former Hawk who last played for the team in May, 2011. You won’t find me discussing Josh Powell, either.

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Buddy, they are in the ball park. There are probably 24 All-Stars across the two conferences, right? So yeah, they are clearly in the 20-40 discussion.

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Vava,

Without the double teams on JJ, Jamal or Josh, Al will have SUBSTANTIALLY less time and space to hit those shots..

I agree. However, isn’t it possible that Al will improve his game to help counter the fact that he will be crowded on his jumpers. Plus there is also the possibility of better coaching. After all, didn’t we just add Bob Weiss

Buddy,

As a free agent next offseason, Bynum may decide to sign elsewhere if he doesn’t get along with Doug Collins. CP3 will be a free agent, along with Dwight Howard, Al Jefferson, Ginobli, (and James Harden).

Will we get any of these players? I don’t know, but it’s possible.

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I think the Hawks would have to be above .500 at the All Star break to have two All Stars, and it’s debatable whether or not that will happen.

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MSDEE-These clowns aren’t interested in FACTS. Their only association with anything FACT related, unless it happens to supports their paradigm, which seldom hapens, is their biased OPINIONS, ASSUMPTIONS, and delusional and/or unsubstantiated BELIEFS.

They refuse to acknowledge he’s earned 2 All star and 1 All NBA selection in his 1st 4yrs. Scrubbs don’t achieve that kind of recognition, expecially in such a short career, but only an absolute idiot would think otherwise. They flat out refuse to accept that JSmith has been in the league almost twice as long and never came close to achieving such distinctions.

He’s never been voted or selected by the coaches, players or writers for any award. Winning a slam dunk contest is his greatest individual achievement. Does that mean he hasn’t been deserving, no. It just means people in the NBA recognize Horford’s maturity and intangibles.

The truth is, they are both exceptional athletes with room to improve, and both players play bigger than their height and size. Both been very valuable players for the Hawks over the last 4yrs. Only an absolute DUMBA$$ would refuse to acknowledge their contributions to the success of the team. This ANAL MINDED APPROACH of constantly pitting one against the other is downright stupid, since they’re both teammates that work extremely well together.

I appreciate and love watching both players, and feel the Hawks are very fortunate to have both very talented players. I also hope we resign Josh and keep Horford. If we can sign a quality DEF minded OC next yr, we could see a frontline of JSmith @SF, FA @OC, and Horford @PF. With JTeague @PG and an above average shooter like JJenkins @SG, we could have a championship caliber starting lineup.

If a one trick pony like 6′ 10″ KDurant, who’s not as physical, athletic or versatile as Josh, and definitely doesn’t have his postup ability, can successfully play SF, so can he.

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After my last post, I’m going to let the HORFORD HATERS enjoy their narrow minded hate fest and concentrate on worthwhile Hawk related discussions. When all is said nd done, I’m a diehard Atlanta Hawks fan, and that includes all of our players, period. The rest of you HATERS can continue being as delusional and negative minded as you want.

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Ken,

I wish we had a one trick pony who could drop 30 consistently day in, day out, regardless of who is guarding him…

Man… Ken, you are losing it. LOSING IT!!!

It’s OK to defend Horford, what is not OK is to lose time battling fools who do not criticize with any logic (T-S, S A Smith, Slim-the-Knicks-Fan-Jr, …). I don’t know why you get so amped up discussing with those guys. It’s pointless and driving you further and further deep into a contentious mode that makes you post nonsense.

To argue that Josh can play SF because “Durant can” and calling at the same time Durant a one trick pony… it’s… oh forget it…

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