Atlanta Hawks: Finding a good fit for Lou Williams

so MC says this:

“For three seasons Williams was the best kind of bench scorer for the Sixers: high usage, high production and good-to-reasonable efficiency while playing just 26.3 minutes per game. He did all of that while helping the Sixers defensively.”

i say this:

“rod, i can only hope the dont do to williams what they did to jamal which was to try and make a point guard out of him. also this scorer doesnt look like a matador on defense like jamal who was purely only interested in one side of the ball.”

rod says this:

“Again you obviously have not watched Lou Williams play if you think he is a good defensive player. Ask any Philly fan, they will let you know. Watched him since high school, and defense is not his strong suit. He is a scorer (SG) in a point guard body.”

durn MC, seems like rod is calling you out. care to share with us all where the data is that suggests that super lou2 is a defensive stalwart?

btw MC what do you think about danny and his commitment to analytics?

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stevew, not sure who declared jamal a bad player if you are referring to me? i was the one who called jamal “flip on roids” which was picked up and broadcast on 790 zone pm show as their own. i liked jamal and stood on many occasions at the phil to cheer him on. i think it is more rod demeaning lou williams than anyone demeaning jamal or saying something new about jamal.

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Both Harris and Williams are better then Teague. I just hope Drew doesn’t blow this, this team can surprispe.

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Lou Williams es el mayor talento hawk desde Steve Smith.Y acerca de la posición de SF creo que aún no haciendo fichaje estaría bien cubierta.Morrow,Korver,Stevenson y sobre todo Ivan Johnson pueden jugar bien en esa posición.Algunas de las mejores plantillas de nuestra historia las tuvimos con Ty Corbin de Forward titular.Y por último reclamar el fichaje de Keith Benson,creo que sería importante.
PG-HARRIS,TEAGUE(quisiera que fuera traspasado)
SG-L.WILIAMS,MORROW,JENKINS
SF-I.JOHNSON,KORVER,STEVENSON
PF-J.SMITH,SCOTT
C-HORFORD,PACHULIA,BENSON,PETRO

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STEVEW-I truely understand where you’re coming from. No team, and I mean NO TEAM, will out quick or run us. As far as posting us up is concerned, especially with JJ, we double team him when he’s reached a certain point. We all know JJ will eat up clock pounding the ball to get into the position he likes, and we also know he’s a reluctant passer out of double teams.

The Miami Heat were at a height disadvantage at all but the OC position against the Thunder. They utilized team speed, quickness, athleticism, and double teams to overcome that disadvantage. DFerry learned the value of good team DEF after being with the Spurs.

Why be so reluctant to embrace the positive effects of good team DEF? The Bulls had KKorver and CBoozer, 2 of the NBAs biggest DEF liabilities. They also had SG RHamilton, who’s no where near the OFF or DEF player he once was. And no one has ever rated DRose as a DEF stallworth either.

Yet, they managed to overcome all of the individual DEF shortcomings of these players by employing a solid TEAM DEF concept that has allowed them to finish #1 & 2 defensively over the last 2yrs. Every player doesn’t have to be an above average defender to be effective. An average defender who’s above average offensively, can usually neutralize most opponents.

Too many are hungup on the idea that every player has to be an above average defender or have a premier shotblocker for the team to be effective, and that’s just not the case. If team DEF can do as much for the Bulls defensively over the last 2yrs, considering the number of average to below average defenders on their starting 5, then it can benefit us as well.

We’re a helluva lot quicker, faster, and more athletic than they are at most positions. Let’s just wait and see how the FINAL ROSTER shakes out before becoming overly concerned about height and DEF, or the assumed lack thereof. DFerry knows what this team’s missing, and he’ll address those issues before the season starts, or at least by the trade deadline, one way or another.

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MC, this guy excites me…he’s like Josh and Teague…he can impact the game in so many ways. I think Lou is taking the right approach. Hopefully Devin can do the same…when I first heard the chatter about playing Teague and Devin together…you would hope that’s in extraordinary circumstances…if the Hawks are serious about playing fast and up-tempo…they probably will have to relieve each other in most cases.

Lou said it best…Teague and Devin are on the ball guys…I think Devin value will be greater closing out games…now we have another solid guy that can help take the pressure off of Teague at the end of games…and Devin is more of a facilitator then Teague is right now…so this should be a great opportunity for Teague to play with two top caliber guys.

Given our past history at the PG position…Sounds like a good problem to have.

GO DANNY GO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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The more I am ready on D. Harris – the more I like his game. Even if this stage of his career he is better than JT0, we must continue to develop our young point guard. D. Harris should get 20-25 minutes between SG and PG. JT0 should still get 30-35 as well a Lou about 30-35 starting! Jenkins should get 8-12 minutes (typically at the 3 minute mark in the first through 7 minute mark of the second.

If you start Ivan, he should be replaced by Korver or Morrow. at about the 6 minute mark. ZaZa should be the next sub. Ivan can come back at PF for Josh prior to the end of the quarter. By the 7 minute mark of the 2nd quarter, all the starters should be back in the game – except Ivan. The half can end with three guard, but depending on the situation.

As you can see, although we have a lot more talent, my rotations would be very short. Like last year, when we are dusting teams by 20+ the other guys will get plenty of burn. This year, LD will have to prove he can coach.

If LD can coach this team into the top 4 in standings, and get us to at least the second round or ECF I would say sign him to a long term contract.

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Ken,

You forget how easy was to beat down average teams simply by sending JJ into the paint.

He always scored when needed using his size and handles against average teams.

That height and girth advantage at the SG slot is gone.

Apart from that, it’s on the defensive side that we have now a huge deficit. JJ was big for the SG position and Marvin was well above average in size defensively (very good mobility for 6′9” / 240).

Using Miami/OKC as an example is plain lunacy for me.

Lebron is heads and shoulders above everyone else in the NBA. Wade is a first ballot all of famer, Bosh is 6′11”, long, able to play PF and C, a perennial all star and a top #20 player, Battier is one of the best defenders of the past decade…

We cannot use MIA as an example AT ALL.

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12-deep:

Miami – Current Atlanta – Start of Season Atlanta

Chalmers – Teague – Teague
Cole – LouWill – LouWill
Wade – Harris – Harris
Allen – Morrow – Morrow
Miller – Jenkins – Jenkins
Battier – Stevenson – Stevenson
Lewis – Korver – Korver
Jones – ???? – ????
James – Smith – Smith
Haslem – ???? – I. Johnson
Bosh – Horford – Horford
Anthony – Pachulia – Pachulia

The two rosters really match up “player types” pretty well. Miami holds the advantage in size, skill & experience at most positions, which means Atlanta’s only advantage is speed.

Does Miami replace James Jones with another big?

Is Atlanta looking for a 5th big man & a SF? And if so, who gets replaced, Stevenson, or is someone else traded (Harris or Morrow)?

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Haven’t checked in here for a while, so let me clear up a few things.

Lou Williams last year was an above average defender ( 36% defensive FG% ), despite being traditionally a below average one. He was an excellent defender in isolation ( 29% defensive FG% ) Almost as good as JJ ( 24% FG ) and Wade ( 26% FG ) as an isolation defender last year.

He was very good in challenging spot up shooters out on the perimeter ( 33% ). He was Teague-like in his defense of the pick and roll ball handler ( 43% ), which is average to slightly below average defensively . . mainly because he’s so small and can’t fight through screens well. Overall though, Williams had a pretty good year defensively.

As pointguardslim pointed out, Lou would guard the PGs, while Holliday would normally guard the 2s when they were in the game at the same time.

Devin Harris was flat out ATROCIOUS last year on defense. He ranked 398th in the league in points per possession on defense ( 0.95 ppp ). The man he was guarding shot 46% FG overall against him, which is flat out horrible.

Devin was VERY WEAK in his pick and roll defense ( 49% FG ). And that number could’ve been even worse had Tony Parker made some jumpers off the pick and roll during the playoffs. All of those misses Parker had actually HELPED Harris’ poor defensive numbers vs the pick and roll.

Harris has a bad, bad tendency to always go underneath that pick, instead of fighting through or anticipating it at times. A decent shooting PG will always have that open 15 – 18 foot jumper because of this.

His defense on spot up shooters were a problem too ( 43% FG . . 39% 3FG ) because he’s watching the ball, while losing track of his man. That was a big problem Jamal Crawford had here. Watching clips of that dude in that particular situation, you say to yourself “WTF is he doing?”

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The think people need to start addressing, is that all 3 of those guys ( Teague – Harris – Williams ) are PG size players. Somebody will have to play the 2 AND defend that position. Harris is the biggest, ( at 6 – 3 . . 192 lbs ) so he’ll have to do it. So we’re going to ask Devin to defend

- Dwyane Wade ( 6 – 4 . . . 220 lbs )
- Joe Johnson ( 6 – 7 . . . 240 lbs )
- Monte Ellis ( 6 – 3 . . 185 lbs )
- Paul George ( 6 – 8 . . . 215 lbs )
- Rip Hamilton ( 6 – 7 . . 193 lbs )
- Arron Affalo ( 6 – 5 . . . 215 lbs )
- JR Smith ( 6 – 6 . . . 220 lbs )
- Jason Richardson ( 6 – 6 . . . 225 lbs )

And those are just the East SGs. That’s not even including what he’ll see in the West.

Most of those guys aren’t going to run Devin through pick and rolls, but rather take him off isolation, being a spot up shooter or post him up. Can Devin actually handle playing the 2 more than he plays the point? And there’s absolutely NO WAY you can ask Lou to guard those guys for significant stretches.

If this team shows that they can be good enough to make the playoffs, Ferry needs to trade one of those PGs. Keep the best 2, and trade the other for a big SG or a SF who can also play SG if need be.

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Terence Williams could be a low risk high reward invitee to the camp.

A nice addition as an undersized SF which does not play any D.

I think it would fit our roster nicely.

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northcyde,

Unless Harris makes a spectacular turnaround in his career, he is strictly an asset who is far easier to put on a trade than Marvin was.

Before the deadline either Teague or Harris will be traded and Harris is the logical candidate since he still has some trade value and probably one of the contenders will need him and will be willing to trade him for a first round pick (I don’t think you will get any decent player in return).

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VALVA74-I didn’t forget about JJ posting up against average DEF teams, I just didn’t see it as an issue. You still can’t seem to get past the SEEING ONLY ONE WAY OF DOING THINGS DEFENSIVELY CONCEPT. Just because we won’t be able to post a big SG like JJ doesn’t mean we can’t be just as effective at attack that same DEF.

With a 3 guard rotation of Teague, Harris, LWilliams, we’ll have the speed, quickness, and athleticism to consistently get into the lane and score, dish, or get to the FT line. Why are you so hungup on HOW we get it done, as long as we get it done. JJ IS GONE PEOPLE, so get over it and adjust to the Hawks getting things done, both offensively and defensively, in an entirely different way.

OBRIEN-You’re giving JJs current defensive ability more credit than he truely deserves. At one time, a few yrs back, your statement about his DEF prowess would have been pretty accurate. But JJ has lost a lot of his foot speed and DEF prowess. Even if he can still guard most SGs, he can’t sustain it for any extended period of time.

And in case you haven’t noticed, when JJ is motivated to play the kind of DEF you say he’s capable of playing, he tends to disappear offensively. That’s one of the main reasons he’s disappeared as a major factor in the playoffs the last few yrs. The instance where JTeague successfully guarded KKorver just goes to prove my point that speed, quickness and athleticism can often compensate for a height disadvantage.

You also proved my point when you said “THEY USED LEBRON JAMES AND D-WADE TO OVERCOME THAT DISADVANTAGE”. Well guess what, that’s called TEAM/HELP DEF, and we have the speed, quickness, and athleticism to done the same doggone thing. STOP LOOKING FOR EXCUSES. And why not let LDrew and DFerry worry about hidding Korver’s DEF issues.

With the backcourt scoring potential we have with JTeague, LWilliams, DHarris, AMorrow, and JJenkins, it’s not like we’ll be as dependent on Korver’s 3pt scoring ability as much as the Bulls were. Korver’s biggest impact will be in closing out quarters, halves and gms. With Korver’s ability to consistently score from 3pt range, as well as Jenkins and Morrow, DEFs will be forced to stay with them in critical situations.

Height of no height, they would all but eliminate the impact of help defenders like Lebron and DWade, which would open things up for Teague, Harris, and/or LWilliams to utilize their OFF skills and penetrating ability to get to the basket. Always remember, THERE’S MORE THAN ONE WAY TO SKIN A CAT, OR GET CERTAIN THINGS DONE.

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THE TRUTH-After 8yrs in the NBA, who do you think DHarris has been guarding? Why would you think he’s somehow been able to avoid guarding the players you mentioned? Sometimes some of you seem so hungup on looking for excuses and negative minded BS, that you can’t see the common sense answers right before your eyes.

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Ken
I think the reason the Hawks acquired guard 6′-5″ DeShawn Stevenson is mainly defensive purposes to guard bigger SG or in some cases SF to help offset lthe osses from trading JJ and Marvin.

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I think the reason the Hawks acquired Stevenson is because they needed to make salaries match to get out of Joe’s deal. Same reason they acquired Farmar (and then sent him away), Jordan Williams (who?) and Anthony Morrow (redundant with several others on the squad). Oh and playing Stevenson ahead of Jenkins so that the Hawks can have a slightly better record before losing in the first round makes very little sense to me.

Speaking of the 17 guards on our team… I wonder if we can flip one to the Pistons? Daye would NOT require a long-term investment.

The Detroit Pistons currently have a full 15-man roster and during an online chat, Vince Ellis of the Detroit Free Press was asked if team president Joe Dumars is content with the roster.

The roster is heavy with forwards and Dumars could make a deal. The likeliest forward to be dealt is Austin Daye. Head coach Lawrence Frank doesn’t seem to be a fan of Daye and Dumars could trade him for a veteran guard.

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“And if DeShawn has to play, when does Jenkins and Morrow play?” – northcyde

LoL, when the opposition starts to play “fair” and make an evenly matched substitution which will be unlikely the entire game.

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northcyde,

So who is a better defender right now, Lou Williams Or Devin Harris? I am telling you that no matter what the fake number say, Devin Harris is a much better defender than Lou Williams.

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SteveW,

In Rod’s defense, he said that he liked Lou (as he likes all gunners by default) and he never said anything outright negative about Lou apart from his view that he is as bad defender as Jamal.

I say that numbers never tell the whole story but stats do indicate that Lou MAY be better defensively than Jamal AND Harris.

Also, at his age, at 5 million per and being from the ATL makes Lou on paper an excellent pickup regardless of his eventual defensive issues.

And before you say anything Rod, LAST SUMMER when it was more or less known that we would not re-sign Jamal but he had not yet signed with anyone we were all discussing him, I said that:

a) If I were the HC, I would not mind at all having Jamal on my bench since I would know how to use him properly (my fear was LD using him as a PG);
b) If I were the GM, IMO Jamal was worth a contract between 4 and 5 million per year.

So, we got a younger and statistically* more efficient gunner than Jamal at precisely 5 million per AND in addition is an ATL kid which should help get more people on board supporting the Hawks.

If you weight in all factors, we should be very happy that we have Lou.

* Lou’s career stats PER MINUTE are ALL better than Jamal’s with the exception of FT% (but not FTA per minute where Lou is better by a lot), with the differential on all stats being better in favour of Lou between 5% and 20%.

If he continues to post his current PER MINUTE stats (or improves) throughout his contract he will be able to produce well above his contract’s cost.

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To be perfectly fair with Jamal, his career 3PT FG% is also a tad better than Lou’s (.348 to .337).

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vava,

SteveW agrees with me about Jamal, always has. Your post should be directed at doc. Jamal’s salary should never come into play in or argument because he would have resigned here for 5 mil per, but the Hawks never offered him that. Please stop with the age stuff also. Some of the best players in this league are older and still producing. Marvin is only 20 something. He is still terrible.

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“Instead the got Stevenson and used the TE on Korver.”

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vava,

* Lou’s career stats PER MINUTE are ALL better than Jamal’s with the exception of FT% (but not FTA per minute where Lou is better by a lot), with the differential on all stats being better in favour of Lou between 5% and 20%.”

And you wonder why I keep going at you. So let me get this straight. For his career, which is more than double that of Lou Williams. Jamal is a better scorer (meaning he puts up more points, which is his job, and Lou’s for that matter), better assist guy, better rebounder, better 3 point shooter, better steals guy, and a better free throw shooter, but you love Lou Williams, and hate Jamal Crawford? Then you try to defend you position by posting some meaningless PER stats. LOL

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vava74

Technically speaking, that’s called getting “punked”. If the Hawks were the Lakers and had JJ in negotiating a trade with the Nets, they would have included Marhon Brooks in the deal and called their bluff.

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Devin Harris also made the Hoopshype All NBA 2nd Defensive team in 06-07. Scouting reports I read continue to refer to him has a good defender.

I think he’s going to be ok, if he’s training in the off season like he’s supposed too.

6-3 192 Fastest player in the NBA, 29 years okd – sounds like a Safety to me. Somebody call the Falcons!

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