Atlanta Hawks: NBA free agency begins

So I guess Ivan wasnt tendered….what are the chances he still returns? OR do the Hawks move on without him?

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The ball is in your court Najeh, or should I say 10 year olds in your court

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As a fan, we havent heard this much trade rumors involving the Hawks in a looooooong time

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Northcyde, ultimately this all comes down to the fact that your idea of a “winner” and my idea of a “winner” are very different. You are satisfied with a team that will win 45 games and lose in the second round indefinitely, as you practically admit with your remarks about the Grizzlies. I am satisfied with no less than a team that has a legitimate shot at winning a title. This is why you want to go to war with a Joe-Gasol core while I want to blow the team up.

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Damn MC, just had an emmy winning post in the last blog in progress….

Najeh quote,

“Well, first of all, you still have Marvin on the roster. If I had to rebuild the Hawks into a winner and I found a sucker dumb enough to trade for Joe’s contract, my first move after that would be to amnesty Marvin.

With that said, this isn’t too hard. Josh and Zaza are UFAs, Teague is a RFA, and Al and JJ12 are under contract. In other words, I have about $13 million of committed salaries, plus the $3 or $4 million for Teague’s QO, which means I have nearly $40 million of cap space.

Go hard after Dwight and Josh to try to get them to team up here. If Dwight and Josh say yes, that’s still only going to cost you about $30 million of that cap space, which means you have plenty of room to add another free agent or trade for another near-All Star level player to be the 3rd option. You can still sign Teague to the qualifying offer and trade Al for a SG or SF to balance out the starting lineup. That team will be at least as good as any team the Hawks have had in their entire history here.

If Dwight says no, I assume Josh will also say no, and you will be left with Teague, Al, and a ton of cap space. In other words, you have a ton of cap flexibility and two positions (PG and PF) locked down with three to fill.

So sign-and-trade Josh for a trade exception and picks (this is possible — LeBron and Bosh were also sign-and-traded for trade exceptions and picks), use these picks to trade up in the draft (since they will likely be in the 20s), tank for a season, get a high draft pick of your own, and draft the best player this team has had since Dominique Wilkins. And in the summer of 2014 after you have used your lottery pick, you can always accelerate the rebuilding process by offering a front-loaded deal to a restricted free agent (if we were talking this summer, that would be someone like James Harden or Eric Gordon for example).

I have a better question for you. Keep Joe on this roster and build a team that has a serious chance to win a championship. Go. And before you start, Joe and Gasol are not going anywhere near a championship together.”

Almost point for point what’ll do except some a caveats. Assuming we get Marshon in any trade, I’ll try to engage Dwight for a rental to get him “acclamated” to playing in Atlanta. Maybe something like Al, Marvin for Dwight, pick.

Trade deadline team would be something like…

JT / ….
Marshon / Jenkins
Who knows maybe Josh will play here some or Scott or FA.
Josh / Ivan / Scott
Dwight / Zaza

Got some holes to fill but that’s a crazy good team. If Dwight and Josh bolts well… we are assed out.

Edit:If a rental of Dwight is just a formaillity, I would only offer Teague, Jenkins, and Duck and future pick heavily protected.

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“If it fails, I now have the option to trade Gasol and his 19 million for other tangible pieces, whether it be decent players or draft picks.”

When (not if) it fails, nobody is going to give you tangible pieces for a 33 year old, declining PF making $19 million.

“All the while, I’m trying to flip JJ for draft picks and possibly a disgruntled star player somewhere else, just like I did with Gasol if it comes down to that.”

Nobody is going to even give you more than marginal players, cap space, and protected picks for Joe now, let alone in two or three years when he is struggling to score 15 points per game. “Disgruntled star player”? Keep dreaming, unless you have the 2012 version of T-Mac in mind.

“My plan is to keep swapping out “the Core”, until we find a combination that works.”

How many teams have kept swapping out their core until they found a combination that works? I can think of exactly one — the 2011 Mavs. Who else?

On the other hand, I can think of at least ten teams that lucked out in the lottery and acquired the pieces that eventually won them a title.

“I know free agents aren’t knocking down the door to play in Atlanta, so me tanking to get 40 million in cap space is out of the question.”

More willful blindness to the fact that cap space is useful for a lot more than just signing unrestricted free agents.

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“If Dwight and Josh bolts well… we are assed out.”

If Dwight and Josh bolt, the Hawks are still in better shape with $40 million in cap space and two positions accounted for than they are with the current core or, worse, a Joe-Gasol-Al core. Teague, Al, and $40 million can turn into a superior team if they play their cards right. This core or a Joe-Gasol-Al core will never be more than a second-round team.

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@Northcyde.. Dude, you can’t be a businessman. We only got 6 players under contract and those six players already put us about 4 million over the salary cap. So your solution is to trade away a 26 year josh smith for a 31 year Pau Gasol, who makes 6 million dollars more than Josh. So now you would be roughly 10 million dollars over the salary cap with only 6 players signed. Again, tell us how you would fill out your roster under this circumstance.

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Joe Johnson is from Arkansas, he needs that hog money, thats why he signed that fat contract

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I agree with you Najeh, but its gonna suck to suck again for a few years. But its the only way

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Omer Asik just got offered $8 million a year by Houston. $8 million a year for a guy who can’t even play more than 20 minutes a game because of foul trouble.

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If we trade Joe Johnson to the Nets we’ll just be making the Nets better and we will get worse.

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frank, gotta get worse to get better in the NBA. unless you’re the celtics or lakers. they have the league behind them. but for your run-of-the-mill team, you gotta get worse.

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How many teams have kept swapping out their core until they found a combination that works? I can think of exactly one — the 2011 Mavs. Who else?

On the other hand, I can think of at least ten teams that lucked out in the lottery and acquired the pieces that eventually won them a title.

**************

No you can’t. Shoot, there hasn’t been 10 teams in the past 25 years to win a title, let alone for you to be able to name more than 5 teams that have PURPOSELY tanked on purpose.

San Antonio got Duncan because Robinson went down with a season ending injury and they lucked up in the draft.

The Lakers of the late 90s got Shaq because he wanted to go there

Boston traded all of their young talent for stars of bad teams who couldn’t advance their squad to the next level

Even the Heat this year had to basically collude to entice Lebron and Bosh to come to Miami to join Wade, in a move never seen before.

******

Meanwhile, Detroit kept swapping out pieces, and coaches, until they got the right mix.

So did the Heat in 2005, when they were able to trade their young pieces for Shaq

Boston, as before mentioned, traded their young talent for star players

As a matter of fact, it is almost unprecedented for a playoff level team to purposely sell off everybody and tank, just to get that lottery pick. That process almost always happens after the team fails to make the playoffs.

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If they do trade Joe, I wonder if they trade Josh as well?

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richy.

HELL YES YOU TAKE brooks lopez and farmer for Joe and Marvin! What kinda question is that?

PG: teague / brooks / farmar
SG: FA – Mayo (we should pursue him) / jenkins
SF: Josh *until he gets traded below*
PF: horf / *see below*
C: lopez / zaza

* here is where we go ahead and trade Josh along with 2 future 1st round picks. We send him to HOU who wanted him and we get back 1 of their draft picks – Royce White, and 2 other players. Probably Scola and I would prefer Ariza so our lineup would look like this

PG: teague / brooks / farmar
SG: MAYO / jenkins
SF: ariza / white
PF: horf / scola
C: lopez / zaza

that is a championship squad right there. go out and get Jerry Sloan to run pick and rolls all game with Teague/Brooks handling the ball and you have your choice between horford, lopez, scola and zaza as pick men. does anyone find it coincidental Ferry came from the best pick-and-roll team in the spurs? Jerry Sloan is out there just WAITING to coach and we have an ultra-quick guard in teague and a good pick-man in Horford….. get it done!

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Interesting discussion going on here between Najeh and Northcyde. My guess is that what ends up happening is somewhere between the two scenarios they outline.

I doubt Ferry will “blow it up” this quickly, but he also has to know that if he can move Joe’s contract off the books he has to do that. If he can’t, my guess is either Josh goes traded (not as likely) or Marvin gets the amnesty clause (more likely).

This team as constructed is close, but salary constraints hold it back from taking the next step. My guess is Ferry will try to create a little salary cap space and keep some core pieces together for one more shot … and save the bigger changes for a bit later.

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i think we trade Joe to the Nets for Lopez and any other asset they are willing to give up to us. I’m a huge fan of lopez. We engage HOU in trade talks ASAP and see if they’re willing to part with any 1 of their 3 rookies they just drafted, particularly Royce White, and another piece for Smith. That’s fair trade value if you ask me.

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MrNique, go a few posts up and I said we should go after Mayo. approach HOU with a package of Smith and future picks after the Joe trade and build around Horf / Teague / Mayo / Lopez

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But everybody said i was wrong about joe……

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Najeh is right, blow this crap up and get a superstar……. The hawks been in atlanta since 1970 and havent smelt a trophy, so blowing it up and waiting a couple more years aint gonna hurt nothing…..

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NCBraves . . . the difference between Najeh and I is that he’d get rid of JJ for a slug and some rotten tomatoes. He’ll simply give up on trying to get the best deal possible in a JJ trade.

I’m trying to get real assets for that dude, if a decision to trade JJ is made. Despite his contract, that’s a top 5 SG we’re talking about here. No way I just “give” him away.

My problem with the whole deal, is that people would have a fit if we just gave Josh Smith away for nothing ( or a bunch of expiring contracts ). That doesn’t help the Hawks, and it doesn’t put fans in the seats. And the same thing applies with JJ. What was the use of acquiring all of this talent, if we couldn’t flip it when we felt they couldn’t progress any longer.

LOL . . even Washington flipped Rashard Lewis for Okafor and Trevor Ariza . . . but we have to settle for some Nets benchwarmers?

I say hell no to that.

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“Josh is a great help defender. He’s not a great man defender.

Of course, I could bring up stats stating how Gasol is a better post defender than Smith, but that won’t mean a thing because stats mean nothing around here.”

They mean nothing when presented without the right context. Gasol is 7 feet tall and has long arms. He is bigger than pretty much every opponent he faces at PF throughout the course of the season, and is bigger than many Cs he faces as well. The PFs and Cs he faces who have a low skill level are going to struggle against him purely because of his size and length, regardless of whether he is physical or fundamentally sound defensively, and that is consequently going to make his defensive stats look good.

The same applies for Andrea Bargnani, for example, whose defensive stats at PF are even better than Gasol’s. The stats say he gives up a 13.2 PER to opposing PFs. You can either take that stat at face value and decide that he is an elite defender of PFs, or you can watch him play and recognize that the number doesn’t really tell you what you think it’s telling you.

Those aggregate stats, however, say NOTHING about what a player will do against playoff competition, against players who are good enough to exploit his weaknesses.

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Moorman . . if it were that easy, where is Sacramento’s “superstar”

Charlotte’s?
Golden State’s?
Detroit’s?
Washington’s?
New Jersey’s? ( even though they had to trade to get the star they got )

Did the tank and re-plank plan work for them?

Ya’ll make it sound like all the Hawks have to do is just get rid of everybody, and everything will be OK in 4 years.

1) we went through this before, and it took 5 years just to steal JJ from Phoenix, and get lucky enough to get Horford as a top 3 pick . . so that rebuild took 8 years

2) lol . . we might all be dead in 4 years

So is this where we are as a fan base? That we’re so “disgusted” of losing in the playoffs, that we’re willing to be bad for 4 years just for a chance to maybe get back at the level we’re at now?

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Meanwhile, KG will expose your Hawks for 2 more years, maybe 3. Just like Najeh exposes himself to 10 year old boys.

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“But everybody said i was wrong about joe……”

Belkin, you were wrong about Joe. The initial trade to bring Joe here was a great trade. The initial contract he received was a great contract. The Hawks’ major screw up was not bringing Joe here — it was failing to draft CP3 to team with Joe in the back court.

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All I can say with regards to Ivan is maybe they are trying to act disinterested in him to keep the market down. The Hawks took a chance on him when other teams wouldn’t, given his past. At one point I was certain that he would be a restricted free agent and sign an qualifying offer with another team that the Hawks wouldn’t have the available cap room to match without going into the luxury tax. I think the Hawks are playing possum with Ivan to avoid a bidding war, hoping they can still sign him to a minimum contract.

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Trade AL Horford and JJ to Orlando for Dwight Howard and JJ Redick

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For all of your FA updates:

http://hoopshype.com/twitter/media.html

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“Well you can trade Josh for another player that can replace his production, ”

I notice how you use the word “replace” instead of “upgrade”. Your implication is correct — Gasol will replace, not upgrade, Josh’s production. In other words, this team will remain in exactly the same place it currently finds itself, only with more long-term salary committed.

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Melvin

July 1st, 2012
12:47 am

northcyde,

In your trade scenario Josh for Paul. Let’s consider that the road to the finals goes thru Miami. The Heat have already said that Lebron will play more PF next season with Bosh at the C. With a frontline of Gasol and Horford, who will play Lebron? And if you take one of them out the game, then you now have a core member on the bench during crunch time b/c of matchups…

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The flipside to that question is . . . who is going to play Gasol on offense with a frontline of Horford and Gasol coming at them?

Do they match up Lebron on Gasol? Bosh on Gasol?

- Teague guards Chalmers
- Johnson guards Wade
- Jenkins guards Battier ( easy cover for him )
- Horford guards Lebron
- Gasol guards Bosh

When we have the ball

Chalmers guards Teague
Battier guards Johnson
Wade guards Jenkins
Lebron guards Horford ( who will be out on the perimeter more )
Bosh guards Gasol

Matchup issues for both teams.

We always have the option to go zone, in order to pack it in on Lebron. If they go zone against us, JJ and especially Jenkins may shoot them right out of it.

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Jettison the Core..No shot at an ECF..Two escorts to the Rim? No thanks……

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for Lopez and a 2013 protected draft pick

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Nortcyce get real how many times will jj play like crap in the playoffs before you stop kissing his butt. JJ is a large part of what is wrong with our offense. To get rid of JJ without also getting rid of LD is not enough.

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Najeh Davenpoop

July 1st, 2012
1:19 am

“Well you can trade Josh for another player that can replace his production, ”

I notice how you use the word “replace” instead of “upgrade”. Your implication is correct — Gasol will replace, not upgrade, Josh’s production. In other words, this team will remain in exactly the same place it currently finds itself, only with more long-term salary committed.

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That’s up for debate Najeh.

Gasol is the better offensive player. Josh is the better defensive player. It depends on whether a person believes who is the better all around player. What player will fit the team better chemistry wise.

Buddy . . this is for you

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aU__2eWaecQ

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You get rid of Joe, Larry, and Marvin, within 3 years the Hawks are knocking on the door [ECF] Danny..

Remember this is the East not the West…

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Anyone who says “blow it up” obviously isnt much of a sports fan. If it were that easy, the Bobcats/Clippers/Nets/ Bucks and other bottom feeders for years would be contenders by now. We have to keep Horford/ Smith to be a top team.

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Rusty

July 1st, 2012
1:24 am

Nortcyce get real how many times will jj play like crap in the playoffs before you stop kissing his butt. JJ is a large part of what is wrong with our offense. To get rid of JJ without also getting rid of LD is not enough.

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Crusty, in no part of this discussion have you seen me type the words “I don’t want to trade Joe Johnson”. Unlike most of the Josh Smith backers, who don’t want that guy traded for anyone but Dwight Howard.

My stance is simply get assets more than just expiring contracts for JJ.

And JJ isn’t the only thing wrong with our offense. We have one of the worst open shooters in the league jacking up 25% of his shots playing the PF spot, when he needs to be working on his post offense almost exclusively.

JJ’s main problem is that he needs to think quicker and shoot the damn ball. Not dribble until the Spalding label fades off of it. But he’s definitely failed in the playoffs. Trade him for some other guy who may can perform better, or trade him for multiple assets.

That’s been my stance.

This team is not better with JJ gone, and no one to adequately replace him. I mean, unless everyone is behind the John Jenkins draft pick now, and feel he can be a budding young star in the league?

Most of you have no plan to replace JJ, other than to simply get him out of here. Championship teams aren’t built like that. Ferry probably has a decent plan in place though. We’ll see.

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*YAWN*

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Let’s replace Joe with Marvin

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Josh is a power forward / small forward and so that trade will never happen and its stupid to waste ink thinking it would.

Al is a center/(want to be) powerforward as is Gasol. The only problem is noboody is going to give up a Gasol for a Al horford. In fact you cant get a Lopez for AL. You cannot get an impact player for Al so why would we want to build around a player who clearly doesnt have much value? That logic keeps us stuck in mediocrity.

Trading Josh for Gasol is weak and stupid and why Sund ultimately got fired, for idiotic thoughts. I keep up and coming PF/SF at 26 and pass on that trade for Center Gasol at 31. Now if you can get both players on the same team…. Put Josh and Gasol on your front line then you have upgraded.

Josh and Gasol > Al and GasoL

Im Glad Danny Ferry is not as stupid as these bloggers.

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Staring Lineup

Teague-Marvin-Smoove-Horford-Zaza

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The difference between Josh and Gasol offensively. Gasol makes the mid range jumper, smith bricks it. Smith is going to walk at the end of the season anyway. Try to get at least something for him right?

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LOL @ JJ kills our flow . . . like we have a flow to begin with.

Our “flow” is to pass the ball to an open man for a jumpshot, regardless if he can shoot it or not.

Once again, I can post stats in which I can prove that JJ in Isolation made a higher percentage of shots than a lot of these “flow” guys when they got wide open spot up shots. But stats are po-po’d around here when it proves a point.

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The athleticism and defense of Javale McGee attracts me, offer this guy a contract and lets see what Denver does..

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Najeh Davenpoop

July 1st, 2012
1:36 am

“Gasol is the better offensive player. Josh is the better defensive player. It depends on whether a person believes who is the better all around player. What player will fit the team better chemistry wise.”

I have actually conceded on multiple occasions that as individual players, Gasol is probably slightly better than Josh. That still doesn’t defeat my point or prove yours. You are essentially saying one of two things:

1) that replacing Josh with Gasol will have a large enough positive impact on this team to raise this team’s ceiling by two playoff rounds. Gasol has done nothing to indicate he can have that kind of impact, even if we accept for the purpose of this argument that he is a better individual player.

Or

2) that you don’t particularly care about winning a title and you just want some good player to replace Josh and maintain the status quo of being a pretty good winning team that has no chance of being a serious contender.

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1) I’m saying that because Gasol plays more like a PF, that it will give the team as a whole to step up to that next level. Teague will get the ball after a defensive rebound is made. Gasol will go to the post and take 25% of his shots via post ups. Horford will finally get to play PF the vast majority of the time, possibly raising his level of play. And JJ’s efficiency may increase because we have better offensive weapons surrounding him. Instead of ISO-everything, he will be able to play more freer.

2) I firmly believe that Gasol can and will elevate us into a serious contender because of all of the things I mentioned in 1). And Gasol does not have to be the best player on the team for that to happen. He simply has to be more efficient than the guy he replaced, and still be the good ( but not great ) all around player on defense that he already is. It is you who does not believe that. We’ll never know who is right because the trade will never happen.

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Id love to have JaVale here but that means we keep Josh, again

Josh and JaVale > Al and JaVale

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Al, Camel, and JaVale > JSmoove and JaVale’s Mom

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Clyde hit his head against that Brazilian rack…

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Hey Clyde it’s your patriotic duty to hit your head against home grown racks….

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“Gasol plays more like a PF, that it will give the team as a whole to step up to that next level. Teague will get the ball after a defensive rebound is made. Gasol will go to the post and take 25% of his shots via post ups. Horford will finally get to play PF the vast majority of the time, possibly raising his level of play”

Gasol Plays like a center.

Most of your logic is based on hope that a player will perform differently>

Teague will get the ball more? LIke that going to make the hawks better. Teague is no that Good. sorry to burst your bubble. Teague is a border line starter/bench player.

“Horford will finally get to play PF the vast majority of the time, possibly raising his level of play”

Al Horford has played plenty of power forward and there was nothing to suggest this guy is any better a power forward as he is a center. Hes awkward, uncoordinated, and mechanical and and has very limited offensive skills.

Your thinking or logic is not sound but base on favorite players Ouija board GM strategy.

” If a frog, had a glass ass…. every time he jumped…. he’d break it”

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JSmoove and JaVale’s Mom > Al, Camel, and JaVale

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Uh, people, we’re trying to win the NBA championship not the And 1 tour.

BLOW IT UP AND SHIP EM ALL OUT! Everyone miust go. All I’d want are picks and expiring deals.

Yall said you want to rebuild right? Josh should be the next one on his way out.

BYE.

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OK that troll Sautee is here stealing my blog name. Not my post people

July 1st, 2012
2:09 am

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I think Ferry sees the obvious- even with JJ this team can’t pass Miami or Boston and the Hawks will have more flexibility in a strong 2013 FA market

Think about 2012-2013 lets say the Hawks stay intact with a core of JJ, Josh and Horford

Miami adds Ray Allen to bolster their bench, upgrade over Mike Miller

Boston adds OJ Mayo to replace Allen or backup Bradley and they have Jeff Green who missed last season (and if Sullinger is healthy they just got the steal of the draft)

There is no scenario in which the Hawks can hang with those two teams

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How to make the Hawks a weaker team and get back to the lottery fast??
Gasol – 19 mill
Horford
Zaza
Teague
Jenkins ( 1st round pick )
Mike Scot

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Me and my boyfriend Josh Smith are going out tonight. Yall have fun. Smooches!

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Blow this thing up Ferry! Trade Joe and Josh and I am happy! I like both players but i realize that the team is not going anywhere with this current lineup. Trade Joe for Lopez and Brooks. Keep Josh for one more year. Sign your draft picks. let Hienricch go. Let McGrady go. Keep Ivan and Pargo. Dump Collins and trade Marvin for something, not sure what. Atleast you can trot out a line up of teague, brooks, josh, hartford, lopez. major back ups are za za, pargo, ivan, willie green, jenkins, scott. I would be happy with that team and you will still have some cap money to play with when you get rid of Joe and marvins contracts.

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“Well first off, we can’t complete any deal for Gasol involving Josh, unless we add another player to the deal. And the only players we could add are Marvin or Zaza. And since everybody hates Marvin, let’s add him.”

This guy is a terrible jj homer. First above everything. JS and Duck combine to make 21.5 including his trade kicker which adds roughly 3 million which comes to 24.5 mill. Gasol makes 19 so the lakers will want to send some salary back *cough* mcroberts.

JJ – 19.8
PG – 19
AL – 12
Zaza – 5.2
Mcroberts (no better than Ivan mind you) – 3
JT – 2.4
John – 1
Scott – .5

63 million for 8 players when you have to sign atleast 5 more. Zaza and Teague are due significant raises the following year. Essentially we have a one year window for a semi chance at a finals appearance. What is the difference between rebuilding now and a year from now???

“Class is over.”
How dare you. No self respecting GM will put all their eggs in the basket for one potentially injury filled season. You do understand Ferry from his own mouth wants a long term team not one that will implode very quickly.

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One last thing before I call it a night:

“My problem with the whole deal, is that people would have a fit if we just gave Josh Smith away for nothing ( or a bunch of expiring contracts ). That doesn’t help the Hawks, and it doesn’t put fans in the seats. And the same thing applies with JJ. What was the use of acquiring all of this talent, if we couldn’t flip it when we felt they couldn’t progress any longer.”

We would have a fit if Josh was traded for nothing because Josh has a reasonable contract that is attractive to potential trade partners. Joe, on the other hand, has the worst contract in the league.

You keep approaching this from the point of view of how good these players are on the court. That is only one component of their value to the team. The other component is the opportunity cost of the contract being on the books. The opportunity cost of holding on to Joe is that the nearly $20 million per year he will eat up for the next four years could otherwise be spent on players who can almost certainly match or outperform what he brings to the table. The opportunity cost of Josh isn’t nearly as high, because the chances of finding a player who contributes at Josh’s level for the price he is paid is much lower.

And in turn, this affects their trade value. Josh is likely to bring back more in a trade than Joe is, because Josh provides more for the cost than Joe does and provides more financial flexibility to build around than Joe.

One of my favorite NBA articles every year is Bill Simmons’ NBA Trade Value column. I don’t agree with a lot of his player assessments but he breaks the concept of trade value down in really simple (maybe overly simple) terms:

NBA TRADE VALUE RULES

4. Concentrate on degrees. I don’t think the Bulls or Heat would make a Wade-Rose swap, but Miami would at least say, “Rose’s available?” while Chicago would say, “There’s no way we’re trading Derrick for someone seven years older.” That counts in the big scheme of things.

If you plug Joe into that list of criteria, it’s real simple. I’d rather pay about 15 SGs in the league their current salary than Joe his $19 million per year and I’d rather have at least 10 SGs in the league at their current age than Joe at 30+. Can’t say the same about Josh at his current deal.

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Something I wrote in April:

“The New York Post further claimed that Howard, despite an initial short list that included the Lakers, was adamant that he wanted to land with the Nets. By opting in for the final year of his contract, Howard may have ensured that he ends up with neither team. The Lakers are unlikely to part with Andrew Bynum if Howard has decided he doesn’t want to play for them. And by opting in for the final year of his contract, Howard has provided the Magic with additional leverage to seek a better offer than what the Nets or Mavericks could assemble.”

http://www.hoopinionblog.com/2012/04/hawks-could-be-back-in-hunt-for-dwight.html

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Najeh, I think what Northcyde is missing is that you believe (and I as well) that if P. Gasol, Josh, Al, Or Joe is the best player on your team, you’re not competing for an ECF round (although I feel Josh is more capable than either of them of going to that plateau as the leader of the team). And you’re saying if neither of those 4 can lead a team that far, why not be open to not having either of those four on the team. I haven’t looked. But I’m pretty sure that Gasol and Joe separately, make more than the entire Denver second unit combined. So the difference between having Joe and Gasol is having the flexibility of having 4-5 highly productive players on your bench who can enter the game at anytime. At least with THAT option, those productive players on moderate contract can be traded for reasonable value. For instance, if you add Gasol to this lineup without trading Joe as well, you have close to $40 million invested in two players who aren’t even ALL NBA status players. Even Lebron and Wade salary numbers don’t add up that high. In this new CBA era, you can get 4-5 very high productive players in the place of Joe and Gasol to go with Al or Josh and Teague. Even if you traded Joe for a trade exception. You’re now able to add players like Andre Miller, Mayo, and Asik to a line up in place of Joe’s salary alone. If you’re drowning in a lake, you don’t get mad if the first person to come rescue you is in a row boat. You take your life saver and feel fortunate. If you’re in a bad salary situation with a contract, and have reached your max with that player’s production (declining production). If someone comes along with a way to do away with that contract without you taking on another bad contract, you take that deal all day. Its just like saying, if Joe didn’t get the max deal, he wouldn’t have signed here. So you got two years out of Joe, and got rid of him before his contract REALLY starts to hinder the team.

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I think the Joe salary dump is all but done. I think it’s Farmar (backup PG, hit 44% of his 3’s last year), Morrow (career 42% 3pt shooter), and Petro. This gives the Hawks $12M in expiring contract and roughly a $7.5M trade exception.

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B. Knight, as hawks gm, did a very good job, his core players has made the playoffs the last several yrs, that does not always happen. The warriors, nets, raptors and even the knicks, clippers, have been and has been trying to put together winning playoff bb teams for many many yrs.

B. Knight, was not the hawks problem. He was very successful as gm.
The problem is when hawks ownership and gm R. Sund, made the biggest mistake in sports history by signing an average bb player to the largest nba contract in history, 124 million dollars.

Dumb, dumb, dumb move!!!!!!!!

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FTPB,

Northcyde,

Dump JJ, then offer another extreme MAX deal to Josh Smith? Is that the deal people want? Wouldn’t that be repeating the same mistake twice?.

I think Josh can be had for less than an extreme MAX deal. But even so, Smith would be 27 years old if he signs that deal next year, whereas JJ was 29 when he signed his.

Also, at that time, JJ had reached his plateau (how many articles have we seen about players like JJ declining after age 30), whereas there is still more room for Josh to improve (especially with better coaching). Also, I think Josh would do a better job of actually recruiting a player to come here, whereas JJ has been quiet as a church mouse (despite what his agent said).

Therefore, I don’t think it would be the same mistake.

That being said, I don’t want to trade JJ for scraps. Hopefully we can get some combination of trade exceptions, draft picks, and serviceable players. But if we can’t find a good deal for him, I am open to Josh and Marvin for Gasol. Would that be a lateral move? Maybe. But I am willing to spend at least one year to find out for sure.

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There are tons of rumors on Hoopshype about who is interested in who. But there is not one mention of the Hawks being interested in anybody. Do the Hawks even know who they are interested in?

And I’m surprised the Hawks didn’t give Ivan the QO of $970k. If somebody offered him more than that, Hawks could have declined to match. And if we end up keeping him at that salary, that would be very good value (imo).

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@ O’Brien

Another thing about Ivan don’t get me wrong he’s the kind of player I’d love to keep that can get up in someone’s face, but if Mike Scott is also like him like many others have said keeping him would be redundant.

It’s a lot of players out there for us if we make the trade the one guy I’d like to bring back home is Marshon Brooks even Brook Lopez that at least makes it better for us

Teague, Brooks, Smith, Horford, Lopez(barring injury). That’s a lineup I can live with for awhile it depends on what happens to both Brooks or Lopez. If Brooks becomes very good which that one time we played against the Nets earlier this year, and he went off mannnnnn. I’d keep him on board for awhile. We need a David West type player though someone who will bang down low with Zaza on the backup unit.

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It is being reported that Portland offered a max deal to Hibbert. I don’t know what it is, but as a Center, I’m sure he will be overpaid. Unfortunately, that’s their market value these days.

Meanwhile, Jamal has plenty of suitors.

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@ O’Brien

Their probably going that route cause they have no Center Aldridge is a Power Forward more so than Center.

I doubt Roy Hibbert goes he like Indy probably feels as though they got what it takes to make ECF next season if they finally get a superstar.

What makes it so much worse about the Indy situation the only thing we needed was a Center all they need is a legit All-star Danny Granger is not that he’s not Batman he’s a Robin.

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O’Brien- Josh and Marvin for Gasol is turrible. First, two players (not even top 10 players in the NBA)

Trading Joe and freeing up cap space to sign other players is a much better option than trading your best player

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Saw this posted on another blog:

If things don’t work out with Brooklyn…..

If Nash signs with the Raptors……….

***Scenario 1***
Calderon and Kleiza (or Bayless) for Joe
-Simple salary dumb and Ferry can sign free agents in 2013 (build the team he wants)

***Scenario 2***
Hawks get – Dwight and Turk
Raptors get – Joe
Magic get – Horford, Kleiza, and Calderon
-Hawks get Dwight / Rap get Joe and Nash / Magic get Horford and exp contact for Turk

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Lopez is the next Yao Ming… Won’t stay healthy….Healthy has a financial value..

I like Marshon Brook.

I would like to see James Harden as the number one option…being guarded by the best wing defender and doubled every time he gets the ball..

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Joe for Lopez and Morrow,

Make this trade ASAP.

BIG DOG IN THE HOUSE

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Teague, Morrow, Josh, Horford, Lopez

Pargo, Jenkin, Marvin, Ivan, Zaza

BIG DOG IN THE HOUSE

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Ray,

None of those players defend like Joe…. and defense matters…You are a fan Josh, so I know you understand that.

I watched WADE the #2 option on his team get shut down by Boston… Do you think he would do better on our team against them.

If Joe is that far behind Wade, then the rest>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> are that far behind him.

This talk about JJ like he is some scrub is CRAZY!!!

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PF and SG are the two easiest positions to get back

1) Center
2) Point Guard(legit)
3) Small forward
4) SG
5) PF

Every team around the league has a PF like seriously

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@ Rufus1

Wade vs. Joe on defense yes I understand that, but on offense Wade is light years away from Joe Johnson.

Joe isn’t a scrub I’m just saying compared to Wade and Kobe that Joe is nowhere near their league, and that the people that are behind Joe aren’t too far behind.

James Harden for example and Eric Gordon if both are who people think they are their not that far behind Joe at all.

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MIP means most improved player, but that’s okay instead you guys want to trade for Deron Coach Killer Williams okay.

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I will give you center

Paul, Nash, Rondo, Lowry, DWill, Parker, Westbrook, Lawson, Holliday, Irving, Dragic, Nelson, Teague, Lin, Kidd, Rubio, Conley, Miller, Wall, Jennings, Chalmers, Rose and Curry.

Bosh, Amare, Josh, AL, Pau, Aldridge, Love, Griffin, Dirk, Nene, Scola, Lee, Milsap, Bass, Ibaka and KG ……………………………… Smoking NBA Knowledge, get some

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@ Rufus

The reason I said PG is tough is because it took awhile to get some of those PG’s for a lot of teams.

Plus of all those Teague, Lin, Rubio, Wall, Jennings, Curry the jury is still out on them why? because Teague, Lin this was technically their first full years. Wall, Jennings, and Curry took backwards steps. Add Irving to that as well as a wait and see cause he’s only been here one year.

As for Kidd, Nash, and Miller while still good on the way out sooner or later.

Chalmers and Nelson even Dragic shouldn’t be on that list

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“Smoking NBA Knowledge, get some” That is for the person that thinks I am smoking.

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@ Danny Dan

Do you really think Horford would agree with coming off the bench? Seriously I need to hear this answer.

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@ Danny Dan

Look my man Danny Ferry is looking for cap room, and Marvin and Joe are the two easiest candidates seeing as one is overpa………………well excuse both are overpaid, but one is extremely overpaid and the other while overpaid doesn’t produce stats worthy of even a Sixth Man role.

Horford isn’t overpaid by the slighest that’s about where he should be in that range.

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There is a player that is top 5 at their position, that doesn’t get top or MAX money in any league.

PPL get caught up in the money he makes and lose prospective how good he is… That is how my friend left his wife for the office slut…. Complaining about his wife demanded too much but now he think she was worth it.. but she is gone.

Until I know who will replace Joe, I will be against this trade… But I will trust Ferry.

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Ray,

My mistake if I attributed that statement to you.

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Josh needs to work on a very short mid-range jumper all summer and learn to stay down low.

Joe isn’t as good or bad as you all claim. His time here is done, his price tag is too high. I’d rather have 3-5 quality young guys developing for his $20 million.

Horford is no championship center, but a good coach could manage he, josh, Zaza and a legit C if championships and not personal stats were our focus.

Teague needs to work on play making and his jumper. He did well last year.

Marvin will never improve as our 6th option. Without the spotlight, he fails to check in.

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@ Danny Dan

If Horford does not do well at PF then yes I can say he’s expendable, but until that time comes I doubt he’d be worse as a PF in fact he might get better without having to worry about the bigger Centers.

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@ Fundamentals

Been awhile man good to have you back and I agree we all think a legit HC and not a caretaker is something the hawks seriously need. To be honest about 1/3 of the season through if L.D isn’t doing what he’s suppose to you can expect him to be fired.

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@ Moorman

Yet with Horford healthy we get to round 2 of the playoffs

Look at it this way back when we drafted Horford we never got to the playoffs with the core of just Marvin, Joe, and Josh.

Now adding both Horford and Bibby we get into the first round to be bounced by champs Boston Celtics.

Next year after Horford’s rookie season we get to round 2 and the year after that round 2 again. All the way up till now.

The 2011-2012 season we get to the playoffs without Al Horford why because yes Josh did improve a lot more than people willing to give credit. But without Horford we don’t make it into Round 2 even with Joe Johnson we didn’t make it to round 2.

Yeah Horford came back to play, but being real he wasn’t the same Horford from previous seasons or the start of this one because being out the loop for 4 months can do that to ya.

If come next year we just have Teague, Josh, and Zaza expect us to only make round one as a 6-8 seed or worse we don’t make it.

I like Josh, but realize that giving up Joe, Marvin, and Horford sets us back way toooo far.

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All I said was without Horford and Zaza we’re no better than a first round team.

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I am not a fan of Brook Lopez. He is coming off an injury, and then he only averaged 4 rpg last year. For a 7’ center, that’s bad.

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Also Danny I don’t think Ivan will post numbers like that he was good last year, but don’t get ahead of yourself.

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If the Hawks could get Brook Lopez and keep Josh, Teague, Horford, now we talking.

BIG DOG IN THE HOUSE

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Mike Scott and Anthony Morrow, Collins

Will be reserve.

BIG DOG IN THE HOUSE

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Josh lost 25pounds during the summer so he could play SF but Horford was injured, so that force him to play PF majority at PF, look Horford is not a center and Josh is not a PF there both undersized, this team has no toughnest because Hawks continue to march out there every year Joe, Marvin, Josh, Horford.

If any one think this team is good enough to play with big boys don’t no basketball.

Hawks must find them a true center.

Brook Lopez make this team better ASAP.

BIG DOG IN THE HOUSE

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i always fel t like jj wasnt worth at much money anyway dont demand the ball and not clutch cut your loss if new jersey want him please come get him

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Has the Hawks reach out to any free agents? I haven’t seen any reports about them….

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gerwald wallace just signed 4 year deal with Nets for 40 million and Nets arent waiting on Howard. I think Deron signs with Nets and I think Joe Johnson is going to be traded. I dont necessarily means it will be to the Nets but I think Johnson will be traded as well as Marvin will be either traded or amnestied

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moving that joe contract open up your cap we have 6 player under contract and over paying most of them there alot of good free agent out there start rebuilding

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Sekou Smith

HA

Great post

BIG DOG IN THE HOUSE

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Sekou Smith – People keep saying Josh can’t play SF, I BE DAM

If anyone have been watching the Hawks this team is much better defensively with Josh at SF and Horford at PF.

Look the Hawks have no superstar on this team, and your not winning unless your build defensively.

Josh and Horford will not cut it because both players are undersize, this why Hawks must find them a center with size in the paint to compliment Josh and Horford.

Hawks 2years ago almost beat Bulls with Josh, Horford, Collins, so you can’t tell Lopez is not 10times better than Collins.

BIG DOG IN THE HOUSE

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@ BIG DOG

I agree with that statement people only saying Josh can’t play SF look at the dude’s frame size I mean for christ sake he’s Kevin Durant’s size for the most part. except shorter than Durant.

OH BTW just because you can play 3 different positions doesn’t mean you can play them effectively.
Josh can play PF, but Center you sh*tting me playing against Dwight, Hibbert, Perkins, Chalder, Bynum, and other C’s that are big night in and night out would put to much on him.

I like Josh, but a Center is one thing he won’t be able to play not no night in night out type thing either.

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http://youtu.be/mpkUkQzJ0Gg

Who say Josh can’t play SF, I BE DAM

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@ BIG DOG

Only those that don’t realize that’s who.

Teague, ?, Josh, Horford, and Lopez(again barring injury) Is better than

Teague, Johnson, Marvin, Smith, Horford.

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• 2011 CBA: Teams must spend at least 85 percent of the cap in 2011-12 and 2012-13, and at least 90 percent of the cap in later years of the agreement.

Teams will have to spend 52.5 million or more in upcoming seasons. Teams with money are dangerous to teams like us who are way too close to lux tax and have to avoid like the plague.

Bottom line: either overspend for guys like hibbert and mayo or overspend for overseas talent and d league guys.

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Ra’mon,

If what they say is true, what do you think about a max offer of 5 years, $79 mil for Hibbert?

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Why all the talk about lame duck Josh Smith? He’s gone. Either by trade, if Ferry is any good at his job, or else Josh will walk away at the end of the year, and we’ll have nothing for that asset. I don’t think Ferry is stupid enough to let Josh walk, though Sund probably would have, because he was the owners flunky. Bottom line: Bye Bye Josh, I’ll miss you. You played great last year, but we all know that you want a better situation.

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OB, sounds like we are going to simply dump JJ1 at this stage.

Ferry has to decide if he wants any usable assets…..I would hope for Brooks and Lopez as I don’t think Humphries can be considered. A couple of usable pieces.

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Enter your comments here

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So the Nets are the only team that’s interested in JJ? What about Houston? Other teams have better assets, especially the Lakers if they will move Gasol.

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We’ve all seen rumors of Josh, JJ, and Horford possibly being traded, and nothing came close to happening. The only way for JJ to be traded to the Nets is if a sign and trade is worked out where he agrees to restructure his contract, and we take back some of their UFAs in return, like CHumphries. The only way Jersey would make a trade for JJ is if they’ve given up on getting DHoward.

Actually, I’d love having a rebounding machine like Humphries included in a trade for JJ. He’d give us even more of what we got from Ivan, plus he’s bigger and taller. If Ferry can pull this trade off, and get the JSmith and financial considerations, or MWilliams, for Gasol trade done, we’d have the makings of a solid core of Horford, Zaza, Gasol, Humphries, Teague, Scott, and Jenkins.

With this core, the ASG could justify paying a luxury tax to get a couple of quality veteran starters and some functional backups. The beauty of the 2 trade is we gain Gasol’s contract, which expires in 2 yrs, and get rid of JJ’s contract, which doesn’t expire for another 4yrs. If we don’t accomplish what we want to accomplish this yr and decide to go in another direction, we could easily trade Gasol’s expiring contract next yr.

Even though we’d be paying out close to the same amount of money, the Gasol contract would offer financial flexibility by allowing us to get rid of it after this season or the next.

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@Ken S,

I agree that the only way they push for Joe is if they have given up on Dwight. But I dont think they have to restructure Joe’s deal to do it, It cant be restructured anyway for trade purposes. I am assuming that they have enough cap room to absorbs Joe’s salary without taking back equal value. I am still not totally buying this, why would New Jersey want to take on Joe’s contract? There are guys out there who can be had for half of what Joe makes.

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LMDO, 500…it ain’t me that’s keep Al here. I’m ready to move his 12M as well. I could get more from Humphries….what’s funny is the guy loves to be listed as a C on the all-star ballot, but when the game starts, he wants to face the basket and get out of the paint. He’s tired of guys being bigger than he is, yet I don’t see him growing his skills. I think he’s peaked and is probably a good 3rd go to guy….like Joe and Josh…

So how do you move 3 3’s and get value in return?

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In regards to sign and trades….I think those are no longer an option going forward. I read that on NBA.com…..if someone signs Hinrich, we can’t get anything for him if we give sign him, then move him.

The sign&trade no longer exists based on what I read last week. But if a team signs a FA, can they move him immediately?

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If Joe gets trade two things should happen

1. Give Ferry GM of the Year
2. Rename Phillips Arena to Ferry Arena

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“The Brooklyn Nets reached a verbal commitment with swingman Gerald Wallace on a four-year deal worth $40 million, according to sources close to the process.”

Can they really afford this plus Howard, Deron *and* JJ?

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If you move Joe, would you take a crack at Brandon Roy? It might be worth a look. It definitely wouldn’t be a long term deal.

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@ Danny Dan

Wait Wait Wait so if we agree then what is your problem with Horford then?

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Take that deal NOW.

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“On another front:

– ESPN.com Insider David Thorpe sees a scenario in which the Atlanta Hawks trade their all-star center Al Horford to the Charlotte Bobcats”

Yeah, right. I hope you have a time machine, cuz that scenario was for the 2nd pick in last week’s draft. Didn’t happen, now did it? Troll, are you that dumb? Or maybe that desperate?

I’m sure it’s frightening to you that Josh is gonna be gone. And, no two ways about it, he’s gone, either by the trade deadline, or by the end of his contract. I hope all four of the core are traded, personally. Blow it up right. Start with a blank slate, tank for 2 years, and get good picks.

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Some of y’all shouldg o back and read your own posts from the past few days to see how strange you have sounded. For months or years, trade Joe has been a constant themse around here. Now that it is a possibility, it is “welll they should only get this back”, or “why aren’t we trading him to this team”. Y’all are acting like spolied brats. If you believe that Joe’s contract is the root of all evil, then why not trade him to the Washington Generals for their scrubs on the bench? Trade him to Atlanta Community College for their walk-ons. Go back and read your posts from the past 24-36 hours.

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Al’s contract is $12M. Not $12-15M, just $12M.

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Jordan Williams in another 6′9″ PF/C. This could be another reason we saw the indecision with Ivan. He’s nowhere as good, but at some point you can only have so many 6′9″ guys.

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“Is that such a hard thing to average a double double?”

Kind of a silly question since your link shows that less than 10% of all NBA players had at least 10 double-doubles for an entire season.

“The only way for JJ to be traded to the Nets is if a sign and trade is worked out where he agrees to restructure his contract.”

Why? Brooklyn has less than $18m committed to 7 players right now. They could absorb Joe’s contract without sending any salary back to the Hawks. This is why Brooklyn needs to get this done NOW, because Deron wants to be under contract so he can play in the Olympics. Brooklyn has to make a deal for Joe, Dwight, whoever, BEFORE they can sign Deron and possibly Lopez (if he’s not agreeing to a sign-and-trade that sends him elsewhere). That’s why Brooklyn can’t wait around for Dwight’s situation to be resolved. They’re going to get Deron under contract as soon as they can. Dwight shot himself in the foot by opting in. Deron wants his contract done yesterday.

So here’s what the trade will most likely be:

Hawks receive:

Jordan Farmar
Anthony Morrow
Johan Petro
(2) conditional first round draft picks

Nets receive:

Joe Johnson

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Without Dwight, Nets could still look like this:

Williams / Kidd / Taylor
Johnson / Brooks
Wallace / Kirilenko
Teletovic / Humphries
Lopez / ??? / ???

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Hawks listed as having a possible interest in Rashard Lewis.

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Atlanta, dallas, clips…

Interested in Ray Allen according to espn via hoopshype

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@ Just Joe count me out of that one tooooo many PF’s not enough C’s or even SF’s for that matter.

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Boy oh boy I haven’t prayed in a long time but right now I’m down on my knees
Please make that trade possible I don’t give AF if we suck for a year and a half all I want is stop that Iso-Joe model that’s been goot but not great for too long.

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I would think you could get a Brooks or Lopez or both…..I would think we could get more than what the rumor is…..

Petro, Farmer, & Williams are junk. We get a #1 2013 and Morrow?

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Trade Failed

http://espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=7g6c62d

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Petro making 3.5? That’s a joke!

And Marvin is still here…..

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While none of these guys will make a lot of money, the rumors that the Hawks are interested in Brandon Bass, Rashard Lewis and Ray Allen suggests that Ferry expects to free up some cap space this summer.

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Buddy Grizzard -

How could the Hawks trade Joe for Anthony Morrow and Johan Petro and Jordan Farmer contract not match 10mill of, JUST DAM

BIG DOG IN THE HOUSE

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@ Just Joe

I think that’s a route no one wants to go the small ball route.

The only reason why Heat really won had to do with how young the OKC Thunder were IMO this is like one of those years where Pistons won the whole thing without a superstar, but you still going to need the Big Centers to dominate the paint area.

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And for those asking about sign and trade…it is still possible;

Adrian Wojnarowski: Phoenix has expressed interest with Landry Fields as part of possible sign-and-trade package with New York for Steve Nash, sources tell Y! Twitter

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@BIG DOG

The trade probably would work on trade machine but Farmar’s opted in late and his salary isnt included yet for the trade machine, I think his salary would push the Nets over the needed 50% of Joe’s salary that they would have to take back.

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28-47 again the winners? This core are pretenders!

Jettison the CORE asap!

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[...] the Atlanta Hawks for All-Star guard Joe Johnson, according to sources briefed on the discussions.Atlanta Hawks: NBA free agency beginsAtlanta Journal Constitution (blog)2012 NBA Trade Rumors: Nets, Hawks Working On Joe Johnson Deal; [...]

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