Atlanta Hawks: New bench same as the old bench?
The Hawks liked their bench players so much last season they are hoping they can lure them back for 2012-13.
“When we go forward I would anticipate–because our bench was so good for us last year [and] in our exit meetings with our veterans to a man said, ‘Can we get our same bench back?’–we are definitely going to make an effort to do that,” Hawks assistant GM Dave Pendergraft said. “Because, as you know, that was one of the deeper benches I’ve been involved with. It helped us sustain the injuries. I think they enjoyed the experience.
“I feel like the guys who came off the bench felt they had an identity. I think they felt appreciated by the starters. I think we would be their first choice. Now, I think a lot of things play into that but we talked to all of them and they had a good experience. ”
All of the 2011-12 reserves except for Ivan Johnson (the Hawks plan to extend him a qualifying offer to retain salary-matching rights) will be unrestricted free agents next month: Jason Collins, Erick Dampier, Willie Green, Kirk Hinrich, Tracy McGrady, Jannero Pargo, Vladimir Radmanovic and Jerry Stackhouse.
I wouldn’t be surprised to see a scenario in which the Hawks rebuild their bench by bringing back most of those veterans if possible while supplanting one of them with their first-round draft pick, a player they hope can immediately join the back of the rotation.
“We have got to play it out,” Hawks GM Rick Sund said. “You can’t make any decisions even in your head right now. You can only play out scenarios because you don’t know what the [luxury] tax is going to be, you don’t know what the cap is going to be, you don’t know who you are going to draft.”
The Hawks did have a solid bench last season but, for various reasons, there is some risk in bringing back each of those players.
In the front court, Collins had some slippage and you wonder if Dampier will stay in shape this summer. Dampier turns 38 next month and Collins will be 34 in December.
The Hawks might be pressing their luck to hope Green can duplicate his career-best season–his inability to create shots in the playoffs against Boston’s defense may have been a sign. Also, he’ll be 31 next month after lingering injuries cost him 13 games last season.
Pargo also had the most efficient scoring season of his career but, like Green, the lasting impression was being overmatched by the Celtics. Larry Drew really likes Hinrich because of his defensive tenacity but Hinrich’s offensive production and efficiency continued to drop off and he looked beat up for most of the season.
On the wing, McGrady’s occasional flashes of his old play-making magic couldn’t compensate for his physical deterioration and his seeming inability to fully come to grips with that. Radmanovic also couldn’t stay healthy and went through stretches where he seemed reluctant to do the one thing the Hawks signed him to do, shoot 3-pointers. Stackhouse played in just 30 regular-season games and none in the playoffs.
Whatever the individual weaknesses of those players, Sund said he believes they collectively created a good blend for the Hawks.
“Last year I think we were the deepest team in the from league one through 15 once we picked up Dampier,” Sund said. “We had a great composite with the versatility and flexibility. It gave a lot of options for Larry, which he used a lot. He changed lineups and he could match up well.
“Also I think the really good teams can play the different styles. You can play an up-tempo game, you can play a defensive game, they can grind it out. I think the team with the best record, San Antonio, was the best at that. I think with all the versatility we had that was a plus. We could do that. And we were one of the best defensive teams in the league.”
Of course, the realities of the marketplace could trump whatever misgivings the Hawks have about bringing back last season’s reserves or signing other similarly-flawed free agents. You have to take what you can get if you are limited to filling out the roster with minimum-salaried vets.
If last season’s reserves don’t find much love on the free-agent market then perhaps they return.
“I think some of the guys are definitely in the mix,” Drew said. “My feeling is a lot of the guys are probably going to try to obviously get the best offer they can and go where the best offer is. We will be talking to most of them to see what they are thinking. We are going to have to make sure we are strengthening our bench and guys who can fit in with the core.
“There are certain pieces we are looking for. Last year I thought was a pretty good blend, a pretty good mix, and we kind of have an idea now of the type of players we need to bring in. We have already started to look at that free agent list and what’s out there and whether we can afford them or not. But with nine free agents got our work cut out for us. I don’t know who we can get.”
Some of last season’s reserves talked about the possibility of returning as they headed out the door.
Green: “I’ve got nine years in the NBA and I’m just looking forward to the next challenge. We will see what happens. If the opportunity is here [in Atlanta], this is where I will be. If not, I wish the Hawks the best.
Pargo: “Just looking for any team that wants me. Once I find out what teams want me, then go from there. If [the Hawks] will have me, I would love to be back.”
Hinrich: “Talent-wise, we are one of the better teams in the East. You play in this league for a certain amount of time and you want to be on a winner. We will see what happens. I could be back here, or could not.”
Michael Cunningham, Hawks beat
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343 comments Add your comment
ryan
June 23rd, 2012
8:13 pm
God i remember the last time we had the 2nd pick we picked Marvin Williams over Chris Paul do we really want embarrass our selves again i doubt the Bobcats trade the pick but if trading Al Horford means getting cap space i am all for it .
Ray
June 23rd, 2012
8:13 pm
Josh says he wants out, but to me it translates like if ASG doesn’t do something he will leave, but if they willing to compete I’ll stay long-term.
I like the deal for Joe Johnson and Kevin Martin plus Sam Dalembert(misspelled probably). I doubt they throw in the two first rounders maybe 1 of them and I’m sure it’s the #16 but it would guarantee a shot at say Moe Harkless someone G-dad is high on. Not saying I would or wouldn’t take him.
With #14 or #16 still wouldn’t get us Dion Waiters or Meyers Leonard.
Still it won’t matter not until they ASG at least come out and support Josh as leader of the team like I said before he’s no Kevin Durant, CP3, Lebron(Good thing), or Melo, but he’s the closest thing Hawks got to them.
Everyone trying to trade him when he’s not the problem far from it actually. Josh’s jumpers didn’t lose us all those games that most people keep saying. I’m not saying all his jumpers are great, but he also didn’t lose all those games that most people blame him for.
And Now if Josh does leave I’d understand you guys really undervalue the guy a lot more than you think. Horford as good as he can be is not on Josh’s level when you hear people talking about how they gameplan against the hawks it’s always Josh that is mention because they realize it’s Josh that changes the flow of the game he could be bad that other players(Joe, Al) must beat or he could be so good that he’s going to utterly destroy you himself.
Although I exaggerated a little you still get at least the jest of what I’m trying to say.
Sautee
June 23rd, 2012
8:15 pm
“Kirk averaged 8.6 points, 3.3 assists, and 0.8 steals in 28 minutes per game as the Hawks’ starting point guard in the 2010-2011 season. “Starting caliber” my ass. The Hawks gave up the #17 overall pick in 2011 for a bench caliber player.” – Najeh
Tony Allen: 9.8 points, 4.0 reb, 1.4 assists, 1.8 steals in 26.3 mpg
Thabo Sefalosha: 5.4 points, 2.0 reb, 1.5 assists, 1.0 steals in 21.8 mpg
Similar stats. Of course Hinrich is NOT the defensive stopper that these two are, but the point is the same:
Some starting twos in the league are starting because of their defensive prowess.
I’m assuming, Najeh, that you think they are “starting caliber” players. And, of course, I’ll acknowledge that if both of their teams were hurting for offense the way the Hawks are, things might be different.
Ray
June 23rd, 2012
8:16 pm
If we want Cap Relief Trade or Amnesty Joe Johnson and honestly Amnesty seems to be the only option right now.
Only teams I could see trading Joe to are Bucks and Rockets at the moment.
Dept. Of Unintended Irony
June 23rd, 2012
8:24 pm
“Although I exaggerated a little you still get at least the jest of what I’m trying to say.”
What’s the gist of the jest?
tyger
June 23rd, 2012
8:31 pm
Hawks Easy Button 1.0 2012
Kyle Lowery J.Teague Daniel Gibson
J. Johnson W. Green Jeremy Hazell
T.McGrady Dray Green Quincy Miller
A. Horford I. Johnson V.Radmanovic
Z. Pachulia F.Melo F.Ezili
Hawks trade JSmith to Hou for KLowery, SDalembart, #16
Hawks trade MWilliams, #43 to Cle for D.Gibson, #24, #34
2012 Draft Order
#16 Quincy Miller, 6′9, G-F,
#23 Fab Melo, 7′0, C
#24 Draymond Green, 6′7, F
#34 Festus Ezili, 6′11, C
Big Ray
June 23rd, 2012
8:32 pm
What a bunch of hooey.
Same owners.
Same bum-a$$ GM (likely).
Same clueless cheap hire of a coach.
Same results. Back to Falcon football…
Sautee
June 23rd, 2012
8:35 pm
So, Big Ray, you mean that you DON’T think we had the best 1-15 roster in the league?
soullrenaissance
June 23rd, 2012
8:38 pm
Hinrich: “Talent-wise, we are one of the better teams in the East. You play in this league for a certain amount of time and you want to be on a winner. We will see what happens. I could be back here, or could not.”
Translated “I wanna play for a ring with a real coach. We have talent but no championship type of coach.”
Najeh Davenpoop
June 23rd, 2012
8:41 pm
“Similar stats. Of course Hinrich is NOT the defensive stopper that these two are, but the point is the same:
Some starting twos in the league are starting because of their defensive prowess.”
I was talking about last year, when Kirk started at point guard. Those stats were to compare him to other starting point guards in the league last year to dispute the contention that he was a “starting caliber player”. I am the first to say that stats don’t tell the whole story, but if Kirk brought a bunch of intangibles to the table as the starting point guard last year, I didn’t see them.
Kirk is a backup 2 and nothing more at this point in his career. He can’t play the 1 on offense, as he emphatically proved over the course of the season. The question then becomes whether the Hawks are willing and able to bring Kirk back as the backup to only one position, while also going out and acquiring a legit backup for Teague. I don’t think that would be a very intelligent use of resources unless Kirk is willing to take the veteran’s minimum and the Hawks can find a backup point guard and perimeter defender on the cheap.
TMACfan
June 23rd, 2012
8:41 pm
Correct me if I’m wrong but I thought Joe moved to the 3?
Sautee
June 23rd, 2012
8:51 pm
“Kirk is a backup 2 and nothing more at this point in his career. He can’t play the 1 on offense, as he emphatically proved over the course of the season.”
Co-sign.
You and I have said ad nauseum that he shouldn’t play PG. IF, he were to come back, I don’t trust LD not to do the same as he did this year. I can’t see KH dropping to the vet minimum, but as long as LD is here, I’d rather not tempt him with Kirk at any price.
O'Brien
June 23rd, 2012
8:57 pm
KevinM,
Nobody will trade a top 5 pick for Josh because he only has one year left on his contract, and if a team has a top 5 pick, that means they are bad, and more than likely Josh will not resign.
gocanes1
June 23rd, 2012
8:58 pm
Any chance Atl moves Josh to Celts for both #1’s + Brandon Bass (sign/trade}?
Grandad
June 23rd, 2012
9:03 pm
High-Sider
What should “innefective” have been? ineffective? I’m just askin’.
I failed spelling today.
I also never use spell check.
Thanks for bringing that to my attn.
My spelling was most ineffective today.
Grandad
June 23rd, 2012
9:06 pm
“What should “innefective” have been? ineffective? I’m just askin’.”
High-Sider;
I also failed to use quotes above.
If Mrs Kimbell were still with us, she would be sorely disappointed.
O'Brien
June 23rd, 2012
9:07 pm
From hoopsworld;
Steve Nash, Chris Kaman, Grant Hill, Andre Miller, Ray Allen and Jermaine O’Neal are among the players who Miami could target with their mini mid-level exception, according to sources close to the situation. Those players can likely make more money elsewhere, but may be willing to take less to join the HEAT.
Another option for Miami is Brandon Roy, who will attempt to make an NBA comeback next season after retiring last December. Roy could be a low-risk, high-reward signing for Miami. If he’s healthy, he could be a significant contributor off of the bench. The HEAT can be patient with Roy, working with him throughout the season just as they did with Eddy Curry this year. Sources close to Roy believe he wants to sign with a contender..
Grandad
June 23rd, 2012
9:08 pm
cp
I would rather have Miles Plumlee than Fabulous Melo.
Najeh Davenpoop
June 23rd, 2012
9:18 pm
I don’t know if anyone posted this, but Al Horford spoke to some Spanish website and dropped a couple of draft-related comments.
http://www.primerahora.com/complacidoalhorfordconlaquimicaensuquinteto-661505.html
According to Google Translate:
With a view to the NBA lottery
Regarding his Hawks, Horford said will be watching next week’s draw for NBA rookies to be held on 28 June for the next season
“We turn number 23 and I know the team will look for the best player available irrespective of position. I prefer more of a shooter Doron Lamb, Kentucky. But I do not mind if I chose a big man to help me in painting, as Festus Ezeli (Vanderbilt). Of course, I doubt they go after the brother of our point guard Jeff Teague, Marquis Teague (Kentucky), “said Horford.
TMACfan
June 23rd, 2012
9:18 pm
SIGN BRANDON ROY YESTERDAY!!!!
Najeh Davenpoop
June 23rd, 2012
9:20 pm
Something tells me Al doesn’t watch much college basketball outside the SEC.
cp
June 23rd, 2012
9:22 pm
Granad many guys seem to want Melo because of his size and ability to block shots but they ignore the rest of his game. I really hope Harkless drops to us. I think him and Q Miller are going to be great value in the 20’s.
cp
June 23rd, 2012
9:23 pm
I meant Grandad
Buddy Grizzard
June 23rd, 2012
9:24 pm
“Al Jefferson is about what Al Horford is.”
Glad you’re not a GM.
“They would have had to salary dump Westbrook to sign LeBron/Wade/Bosh, just like they did with Beasley.”
Not really. I’m sure they would have kept Westbrook instead of bringing in Miller.
Najeh Davenpoop
June 23rd, 2012
9:27 pm
If the Hawks insist on going into next season with Teague/Joe/Josh/Al/Marvin/Zaza all on the roster again, my bench wish list would look like this (if money was no object):
Pass-first veteran backup PG (someone like Andre Miller)
Shooter (ideally someone like Ray Allen, although more realistically someone like Courtney Lee would be acceptable)
Perimeter defender (someone like Mickael Pietrus)
Rebounder/defender/tough guy inside to back up PF and C (Ivan is acceptable)
Someone to play Jason Collins’ role of defending the Dwight Howards and Andrew Bynums of the league (who would preferably be better than Collins or Dampier)
Once those roles are filled, I have no problem bringing back Kirk, Pargo, and whoever else. I would also like T-Mac to return, especially if the backup PG they find is more of a Pargo-like shooter than a pass-first facilitator.
jase
June 23rd, 2012
9:28 pm
Hindrich doesnt sound like he wants be here. good. we don’t want him anyway. Teague is MUCH better + re-sign Pargo. keep Ivan as well. and maybe Green. no way do you bring back Collins. Dampier. McGrady. Vlad. Stackhouse. them 5 HAVE TO GO. though i have to say, Stackhouse played good to be his age. the guy still had great energy and was knocking down shots more times than not. but considering his age… he has to go i believe.
Najeh Davenpoop
June 23rd, 2012
9:29 pm
“Not really. I’m sure they would have kept Westbrook instead of bringing in Miller.”
They dumped Beasley before the free agent period started. Salary cap rules wouldn’t have allowed them to keep Beasley and also have room for three max contracts. The same would have applied to Westbrook. Miller’s signing was irrelevant to that decision because it came after the three max contracts were added to the roster. In fact if I’m not mistaken the Heat used their mid-level on him.
Grandad
June 23rd, 2012
9:30 pm
Buddy G.
” The sample size is incomplete
and he shouldn’t be used as the gold standard
after a 4 year run with a single team.”
” If Presti was as unsuccessful with free agency
and the draft as Cleveland’s front office was
before and after they drafted LeBron,
we’d be having a different conversation about Presti.”
1st – I said I was – not- knockin` Presti !
2nd – I also said – “we should look through the prism of time”
____________________________________________
Comparing with Ferry – however;
Ferry had cleveland in the NBA Finals 4th yr.
Ferry had [Cleveland] back to back – 60 win seasons !
Cleveland & OKC had / have young SuperStars.
* note – very comparible !
Najeh Davenpoop
June 23rd, 2012
9:31 pm
Of course I fully realize there is no way in hell that entire bench wish list comes to fruition, but I’m just saying those are the roles the Hawks should be targeting.
Slimjr
June 23rd, 2012
9:42 pm
C’mon All be real, your just saying all that chatter because you are drooling to play the 4 so you can showcase that finesse game? Huh? Show us the new fade away turn around set shot you have been working on? How are those power forward handles coming along? Can you put the ball on the floor yet to reset and gain new ground to get your shot off? Yea you probably cant wait to play the 4 [your natural position so say you] for good? Well good luck to you and your game…
“He would have to pay me to watch that ish” unknown author
Slimjr
June 23rd, 2012
9:48 pm
Cleveland with Lebron 61-21
Cleveland without Lebron 21-61
Was Danny Ferry the GM Sautee in both those seasons? Just asking?
Oh If only the Hawks had a Lebron James knockoff? LOL
Barkley may have got it right: “This is a player driven League”
Shamrock
June 23rd, 2012
10:06 pm
You know what you Hawks fans need? Is for the weak ### dude Najeh to stop blogging like he knows whats going on. Maybe after he quits rubbing on 10 year old little boys behinds he will have some knowledge. Go Celts baby!
Sautee
June 23rd, 2012
10:11 pm
Hey Slim, I wasn’t pushing for Ferry. I just listed some of his draft picks that seemed reasonable from a talent to #slot perspective. I have never looked at his total body of work as a GM to evaluate it.
Perhaps he’s a better talent evaluator than an administrator, who knows.
Sautee
June 23rd, 2012
10:16 pm
Slim, Ferry resigned from the Cavs a month before “The Decision”. So he was NOT there for the 21-61 season.
SteveW
June 23rd, 2012
10:32 pm
Najeh – Couldn’t they have renounced Joel Anthony and kept Westbrook? I think they traded Beasley because they thought they needed a defensive C in the hope of the Big 3 than Beasley – and maybe Beasley was smokin’ weed or something also.
And how did they sign Haslem? He got way more than the bi-annual – as did Anthony.
But the fact is the Heat blew the draft that year. At least the #2 pick.
SteveW
June 23rd, 2012
10:37 pm
If you trade Josh for the #2 pick – if that was even a viable option – you get whoever you’d draft #2 plus whoever you would sign with the 9 mill in savings from Josh’s contract. Of course this is ASG we are talking about. But if they would, maybe you get Nash for 6 mill to get us to the 58 mill cap (assuming it’s somewhere around that), and Allen for the mid-level. I doubt it, but maybe…
Because, w/o going into too much detail, you could actually spend a little more than 9 mill this season, because your 6th player would only bring you to 58 mill, not right at 61 mill, so you could spend more on your 7th player under contract.
SteveW
June 23rd, 2012
10:38 pm
So in the above scenario, you basically would trade Josh for the 2nd pick, Steve Nash, and Ray Allen.
Buddy Grizzard
June 23rd, 2012
10:49 pm
“I don’t think that would be a very intelligent use of resources unless Kirk is willing to take the veteran’s minimum.” – Najeh
Kirk will not be playing for the vet’s minimum next year, and he will continue to play both guard positions. Someone will see it as an intelligent use of resources.
“Any chance Atl moves Josh to Celts for both #1’s + Brandon Bass (sign/trade}?”
That would actually be a very good trade for the Hawks. The Celtics don’t have to worry about being able to resign Josh because that’s where he wants to go, to play with his high school buddy Rondy. But the Hawks are on record saying there are All Stars they would not take in trade for Josh. They think he’s worth a lot. They may end up shooting themselves in the foot by not taking what BOS offers and instead letting them sign him outright next offseason without giving up any assets for him.
“I would rather have Miles Plumlee than Fabulous Melo.”
I’ll take Festus Ezeli.
Buddy Grizzard
June 23rd, 2012
11:07 pm
“Salary cap rules wouldn’t have allowed them to keep Beasley and also have room for three max contracts.”
They took sub-max contracts so they would have enough left over to sign Haslem.
Melvin
June 23rd, 2012
11:35 pm
Lets just say the below statement is true for the sake of argument. Here’s a reason why it’s good to have salary cap space. If the Hawks had cap space, they could trade for one of these players and send the Bulls back a Trade Player Exception. This is a good example of not having to use your salary cap space just to sign free agents. Salary cap space is an asset if you wisely…
“The Bulls want to give Omer Asik and Taj Gibson new deals, so they’re exploring ways to trade Luol Deng and/or Joakim Noah to teams that can send them a trade exception and a No. 1 pick. New York Daily News”
donte080
June 23rd, 2012
11:35 pm
FYI….Hawks are supposively talking with Danny Ferry to replace Sund.
pointguardslim
June 23rd, 2012
11:45 pm
Umm can u guys post actual rosters? Go with the San Antonio model. Quick PG dumping off to Size inside, size defense, and multiple Starter caliber players off the bench.
Teague – Johnson – Smith – Horford – Pachulia
Hinrich- Kevin Murphy* – Marvin Williams – Ivan Johnson – Melo/Ezeli
and to the guy who posted McGrady as a starter…How old are you? Grow up.
pointguardslim
June 23rd, 2012
11:54 pm
The Hawks are eligible for the mini-mle or multiple mini-mle’s.
Also I checked the rookie scales. So the players with * are counted towards the $60.9M.
So here are the contracts
Teague*
Johnson*
Smith*
Horford*
Pachulia*
Hinrich – $3M (mini-mle; Kidd; Earl Watson; or even smarter – steal CJ Watson from the Bulls)
Kevin Murphy – $444K (the next Kevin Martin)
Marvin Williams* (bench ace)
Ivan Johnson – $1.3M
Ezeli/Melo – $1.3M
Pargo – $vet minimum
Green – $vet minimum or Al Thornton or Shannon Brown
Dampier – $vet minimum (depends on shape as much as anything)
Slimjr
June 23rd, 2012
11:59 pm
Thanks donte080 for the news. I don’t mean to be a jack azz but you’re a day late and a dollar short with the GM info Sir……It was posted over 24 hrs ago on a previous blog…
Hey Sautee, I give Ferry credit for jumping off that sinking boat before it sunk! LOL…
Dawg
June 24th, 2012
12:03 am
donte080: You are not allowed to ever repeat something that has been posted. One more slip up and you are banned. “No blog for you!”
Grandad
June 24th, 2012
12:42 am
donte080
Don`t worry about it.
I did the same thing.
Grandad
June 24th, 2012
1:02 am
For the 2nd or 10th time, I`ve lost count:
Even if our Hwks trade Josh for a pick;
we must take back some salary.
CBA rules apply.
Draft picks do not count anything toward trade value !
Example:
Josh Smith to the Bobcats for the # 2 pick.
Hawks would have to take back:
Tyrus Thomas + Gerald Henderson to make it work.
Thomas & Henderson make an aggregate $9.5 mil [approx]
* (no way that deal is worth it)
Any trade Josh for a pick;
the return salary must be worthwhile or an exp salary,
-otherwise-
the Hawks dont do the deal.
____________________________________________
Houston is muh more appealing.
Lowry + filler would be worth the $,
plus the pick or picks.
Perhaps even Scola + the pick or picks.
* The less salary you take on the better;
plus the better the player in return.
___________________________________________
This is my understanding of trading players for picks.
Grandad
June 24th, 2012
1:05 am
* note – I left this info off my last post:
Tyrus Thomas also has three yrs left on his contract.
Grandad
June 24th, 2012
1:17 am
There is a reason Charlotte cannot trade that pick.
No one can figure out who they want to draft there anyway ?
There are five players that particular teams would like to draft at # 2:
Robinson; Beal; Barnes; Kidd-Gilchrist; & Drummond.
The first four are concensus 2-5.
However alot of teams (if they had the pick) would choose Drummond.
The Hawks are probably one of the teams that would pick Drummond.
Now you see why.
Nobody wants to take on Ty Thomas just to get a solid player;
[Robinson] or a hit or miss player [Drummond.
My prediction:
Charlotte keeps the pick;
and Michael Jordan does something goofy.
Such as pick – Perry Jones III or Austin Rivers
Grandad
June 24th, 2012
1:19 am
semi colon out of place / bracket missin`
I`m gonna fire my typist