Atlanta Hawks: Larry Drew to return as coach
The Hawks said they’ve exercised the option on coach Larry Drew’s contract for next season. The team signed Drew to a two-year contract with an option in 2010.
The Hawks have posted an 84-64 record with Drew as coach. They lost to Boston in the first round of the playoffs last week, ending a streak of three consecutive years in the second round. But the team’s owners and management cited the team’s 40-26 regular-season record as a success in light of several injuries to key players, including center Al Horford.
“Larry did an outstanding job this season in guiding our team to the fourth-best record in the Eastern Conference, despite a condensed schedule and unfortunate injuries,” Hawks GM Rick Sund said in a statement released by the team. “The Hawks have reached the postseason in each of his years on the bench, and we feel Larry’s experience, expertise and dedication to the game were a key ingredient to our success.”
Sund’s contract expires next month. He’s been in talks with the team’s owners about re-signing but hasn’t committed to a return or publicly addressed his future. Sund’s other options include retirement or taking a part-time role with the Hawks or another team.
Michael Cunningham, Hawks beat
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601 comments Add your comment
northcyde
May 21st, 2012
1:03 am
Najeh Davenpoop
May 20th, 2012
6:34 pm
“How in the world is trading JJ and Marvin for a trade exception that we will NOT use, a good move? ”
Who said anything about not using it?
Utah traded Boozer for a trade exception and used that exception to acquire Al Jefferson, which ended up being an upgrade for them. There’s no reason the Hawks couldn’t make a similar type of move by trading Joe and/or Marvin.
The whole idea behind clearing cap space is that it will be used eventually to acquire someone better. Obviously if you are of the opinion that the Hawks will let $18 million in cap space just sit there, then it does no good, but I think a Joe-sized trade exception is more likely to be used by this team than a Childress-sized trade exception.
Let’s keep it accurate now. Utah had to use not only the trade exception, but two 1st round picks, to get Jefferson. Utah coveted Jefferson while Minnesota wanted to trade Jefferson to basically free up Love to do more offensively.
Also, getting a huge trade exception from a team basically means that a team wants JJ bad enough, that they’re willing to give us the exception and/or draft picks. As much as you talk about JJ, do you see a team giving us multiple draft picks for JJ?
And what about the flip side? Are we going to go after a guy hard enough, that we’d be willing to use a large exception and 1st round picks to get him?
Brooklyn, if Deron opts out this summer, may be the only team willing to bring in JJ, plus give us a huge trade exception. But if we didn’t get any draft picks, it would be a waste to us, other than the mythical “cap space”.
The likely scenario for moving JJ, would be a playoff level team looking to bring him in, while shedding expiring contrats or equally bad contracts.
That’s why people toss around Hedo + Redick for JJ, which is horrible. If they’re willing to sell off JJ for something like that, I’d rather them do something like trade him to Sacramento for Tyreke Evans, John Salmons, and a filler like Travis Outlaw. Sacramento would probably want a 1st round draft pick though.
Of course, the pipe dream would be to trade him to the Lakers for Pau Gasol . . straight up.
My fear is this though.
If the ASG are so strapped for cash, and they believe that we don’t have a championship level team here, then yes . . I can see them letting “cap space” linger for a season or two, to prevent paying out a large team payroll number ( even if certain players are overpaid ).
And that’s kind of the fear with not trading Josh now, and seeing him walk from us without getting anything. The ASG could just let this entire string play out, offer Josh some weak extension, and do nothing next summer ( while acting like they did something to keep him ).
Josh falls off the books, the Hawks go into the Summer of 2013 with just JJ, Marvin and Horford on the payroll, and they use the remaining money to match any free agent offer from Teague + stock the rest of the team with journeymen. And instead of a 65 – 70 million payroll they have a 55 million payroll.
Even if they opt to trade JJ, they’d probably do it for expiring contracts only, and go the same route. Re-sign Josh and Teague, and stock the rest of the spots with Dollar Tree players, keeping the payroll as low as possible.
************************
“The one thing you DON’T do, is trade any of these guys for scraps, just to get them off the books. The teams that aspire to win championships or advance deep into the playoffs, at least trade their assets, for other assets that they can use.”
Maybe not frequently, but it has happened. Just last summer, the world champion Dallas Mavericks let Tyson Chandler walk for nothing because they believed it is in their best long-term interest to keep cap flexibility to pursue free agents.
A disasterous move by the Mavs by the way. Donnie Nelson ( Mavs GM ) sounds like Rick Sund with this quote:
“There’s no fans bigger of Tyson Chandler than the guys in that locker room and the guys in the management staff,” Nelson said. “We understand what he brings to the table. But we also would not have won that series had he been here. We might have won more games, we might have put ourselves in a better position, but there’s no question that they’re a better team.”
“We’d be sitting here today and you guys would be telling me, ‘Man, you guys are all locked up with no place to go and no flexibility, blah, blah, blah.’ So it’s just what it is.”
And look at what Shawn Marion said when told of that quote:
Nelson’s take is not a consensus opinion throughout the organization. Shawn Marion’s eyebrows shot up above his designer shades when informed that Nelson didn’t think Chandler could have made a difference in the series.
“He really just said that?” Marion asked. “Tyson does things out there a lot of guys don’t do in this league. Even if he’s not scoring all the time, but it’s just his presence out there, his demeanor, it can carry to wins.”
And this goes back to your notion of guys “stepping up”. With the money they paid out to Brendan Haywood, they needed him to “step up”. He didn’t. He regressed actually. And while they got solid play from Ian Mahinmi, it wasn’t nearly enough to replace what Chandler brought to the team.
So if they trade Josh, this has to be kept in mind. No way you just let him walk off the books in 2013 and get a large trade exception in the same vein that you talk about trading JJ. You got to get something tangible for Smith.
*************************
Every team weighs costs and benefits when making a trade, and when you have a guy who already isn’t giving you enough benefit for the cost and whose cost-benefit ratio is only going to get worse from here on out, the right move is to clear him off the books, especially when he likely isn’t leading to an appreciable increase in the win column.
I agree with this. But you still don’t sell him off for nothing . . or for scraps. Not if you’re serious about not taking a step back. The problem in our case, is that we literally have no one to replace JJ with, unless we do trade him for another SG.
Maybe you could convince a team like Milwaukee that they’d be better off taking JJ and his contract for the next 4 years, and them giving us Monta Ellis and a filler like Drew Gooden. A trade for JJ at the very least has to be something along those lines. Gotta get something back. Cap space guarantees us nothing, due to the history of free agents coming ( or not coming ) here.
In a Josh Smith deal, not only would we have Al to slide to his PF spot, we could pick up another PF and/or SF to bring off the bench or as a starter. If we could get a 2 for 1 for Josh, that would be big time.
And if both players are close to or better than Zaza and Marvin, you could afford to lose one or both of those guys in the following season, and replace them with better ( and hopefully younger ) talent.
*****************
I realize there are differing opinions of Joe’s value on this blog, but at this stage of his career, I honestly think the Hawks can replace him with someone like Arron Afflalo and lose in 6 games in the first round just as well as they currently do. They did go 4-2 with 3 wins over playoff teams without Joe this season. At Joe’s salary, the value he provides in the win column is nowhere near enough. And yeah, you can say that about other players on this team as well, but other players’ contracts don’t cripple the Hawks’ ability to improve the roster the way Joe’s contract does.
Any serious rebuilding/retooling of this team has to start with moving Joe’s contract. With the amount he gets paid and the trade value of the other key players on the team, there is no way you can keep Joe and seriously expect to upgrade this roster beyond its current 2nd round ceiling. There are, on the other hand, ways you can realistically expect to keep Teague/Al/Josh, dump Joe/Marvin, and improve the roster beyond its current 2nd round ceiling.
We’ll just have to agree to disagree on this. Al Horford could definitely average 19 ppg or more points if he took almost 17 shots a game, like Josh did. He could get the same, if not more rebounds per game, if he were able to play most of his minutes at PF. And while he may not shoot 55% FG, I could still see him shooting 50% FG in an expanded offensive role, because teams would still have to worry about JJ.
Without Josh in the mix, Teague would get greater control of the team. A pick and roll or pick and pop with Al would be more effective with those two, than it is between Josh and Teague. One of Al’s best games as a pro came vs Chicago last season, with no Josh Smith. He goes for 31 points – 16 rebounds, consistently crashing the offensive boards and knocking down 17 footers. Dude is more than capable of replacing what Josh brings to the table offensively.
Defensively, he’s not ( from a help defense standpoint ). So a trade involving Josh would hopefully bring in either a good defensive post player/rebounder or a shot blocker, who could also give you timely offense. And maybe it even brings in a solid SF or SG to back up or replace Marvin as the starter.
Teague
Johnson
Marvin
Horford
Zaza
. . . is a very balanced starting 5. So if one or two starter quality reserves are added in a Josh trade, that team improves immediately ( especially if one of those guys is a SF or SG that can move Marvin to 6th man status ). And maybe improves enough to be a legit contender in the East,
But Josh supporters and skeptics will disagree.
northcyde
May 21st, 2012
1:40 am
I know JJ is probably sleep, or in Little Rock chillin, or if he is in ATL, he’s at the Velvet Room . . . but I hope he’s watching Inside the NBA right now, and seeing Chris Paul take responsibility on his team not winning this game and making it a more competitive series.
Time to start taking full responsibility JJ. Stop acting like one of the guys, and start acting like “the man”. If you’re not willing to do that, it may be time for you to go.
High-sider
May 21st, 2012
2:45 am
@northcyde
This is [written as] an “addendum” to my post @1:36am dated May 21, 2012.
In an effort to demonstrate Jamal Crawford’s value to the Hawks [in the playoffs], let’s [arbitrarily] extract [or take out] Kirk Hinrich’s [2012 playoff] scoring average [of 5.7ppg] from the 2012 Hawks’ team playoff [scoring] total[s]/average[s] and substitute/replace Hinrich’s [2012 playoff] scoring average with Jamal Crawford’s [career playoff] scoring average of 15.8ppg; that’s a difference [or an increase] of +10.1ppg. As a result, the Hawks [now] as a team average 92.3ppg [if my calculations are correct]. This [potential] scoring increase [greatly] increases the probability of the Hawks defeating the Celtics in the first round of this [2012] postseason.
Atlanta Hawks [team] ppg avg [w/ Crawford replacing Hinrich] in the 2012 playoffs: 92.3ppg
Opponent[s] [Boston Celtics] [team] ppg avg in the 2012 playoffs: 86.8ppg
High-sider
May 21st, 2012
2:57 am
Correction: Isn’t it [eerily] coincidental that Jamal Crawford’s [career]* playoff shooting percentage[s]* and scoring average[s]* are similar to the Hawks’ top two scorers [Joe Johnson and Josh Smith] in this year’s playoffs?*
rahim delmondroffete
May 21st, 2012
3:29 am
WOW ATL IS CRAZY Larry Drew? really atl? larry drew? (kevin harts voice)……lmfao 32 coaches in the NBA larry drew is # 33 lol lmfaooo that guy is retarded first of all Joe Johnson is not a super star so why have him play iso in the 4th quater of games? Kirk H is not a starter specially not a shooting guard so why have him starting at the 2? Marvin williams is not consistant enoff to become a starter why have him start at the 3? T-mac is your best option of the bench (heats game) why was he playing less then willie green and pargo? matter fact why wasnt t-mac starting over Marvin williams or kirk H? have you seen larry drew ever running a good play? Larry Drew? really Atl? Larry Drew? (kevin harts voice)…..
northcyde
May 21st, 2012
4:01 am
High-sider
May 21st, 2012
2:57 am
Correction: Isn’t it [eerily] coincidental that Jamal Crawford’s [career]* playoff shooting percentage[s]* and scoring average[s]* are similar to the Hawks’ top two scorers [Joe Johnson and Josh Smith] in this year’s playoffs?
**********************
And that’s exactly why we don’t need dude here. JJ and Josh have career lows in FG% this year, yet, you want to bring in another guy who shoots exactly on that level?
You just destroyed your own argument with that post and you don’t even know it
rahim delmondroffete
May 21st, 2012
4:18 am
AND PEOPLE ENOFF with the topic on t-mac being watched up IF YA REALLY SEEN HIM PLAY THEN YA SEEN THAT WHEN CONSISTANT MINUTES WAS GRANTED AMAZING THINGS HAPPEND………
Date Opponent Result MIN FGM-A 3PM-A FTM-A OFF DEF REB AST STL BLK TO PF PTS
Apr 18 vs. DET W 116 – 84, 17, 6 – 10, 1 – 2, 4 – 5, 1, 3, 4, 4, 1, 1, 1, 0, 17
Apr 16 @ TOR W 109 – 87, 21, 3 – 7, 1 – 3, 4 – 6, 0, 4, 4, 4, 1, 0, 2, 0, 11
Apr 13 @ ORL W 109 – 81, 25, 5 – 7, 1 – 2, 0 – 0, 0, 6, 6, 2, ,1 0, 1, 1, 11
Feb 08 vs. IND W 97 – 87, 22, 4 – 6, 1 – 2, 4 – 4, 1, 1, 2, 2, 0, 0, 1, 1, 13
Jan 05 vs. MIA L 109 – 116, 30, 4 – 8, 1 – 1, 5 – 8, 1, 6, 7, 5, 1, 2, 1, 0, 14
Jan 02 @ MIA W 100 – 92, 26, 5 – 8, 3 – 3, 3 – 7, 1, 6, 7, 4, 1, 0, 1, 0, 16
Dec 31 @ HOU L 84 – 95, 25, 6 – 1, 1 – 2, 0 – 0, 0, 6, 6, 1, 0, 0, 1, 1, 13
Dec 28 vs. WAS W 101 – 83, 19, 3 – 5, 0 – 0, 5 – 6, 0, 4, 4, 1, 0, 0, 1, 1, 11
Dec 27 @ NJN W 106 – 70, 20 5 – 10, 0 – 0, 2 – 2, 0, 2, 2, 0, 1, 1, 1, 1, 12
This dude just needs a different situation IF ATL offers him i will clearly Deny
Bulls can use this guy ass a starting 3 until deng and rose get back then he switch to the 2 sharing time bringing up the ball setting up plays for rose and the rest!
or he can play for the lakers play point or the 3. t-mac starting = 30min/per 15-20ppg 6rbg 4apg
and he can still play minutes and not be tired wimps
Min Rbpts pts
May 04 @ BOS1 L 84 – 90, 41, 5 – 14, 0 – 3, 2 – 2, 3, 6, 9, 2, 0, 0, 4, 2,12
High-sider
May 21st, 2012
4:51 am
@northcyde
“And that’s exactly why we don’t need dude here. JJ and Josh have career lows in FG% this year, yet, you want to bring in another guy who shoots exactly on that level?
You just destroyed your own argument with that post and you don’t even know it” – northcyde
Look, again, my dear [Dr. John H.] Watson [played by northcyde as I, High-sider, am Sherlock Holmes in this scenario]. Jamal Crawford’s [career] playoff scoring average of 15.8ppg is greater than [>] Kirk Hinrich’s [2012] playoff scoring average of 5.7ppg. (See my post @2:45am dated May 21, 2012.)
Dr. Watson [aka northcyde], I am using abductive reasoning [deduction] and logic which [both] encompass my “Holmesian deduction” method.
BTW, that “dear” word/term [above] – no homo…just acting out the role of Sherlock Holmes.
Just Joe
May 21st, 2012
6:25 am
Marvin Williams for Tayshaun Prince. Marvin’s contract is $8.1M & $7.5M. Tayshaun’s contract is $6.7M, $7.2M & $7.7M. Marvin is 6 yrs younger and the better rebounder. Prince helps the offensive flow for the Hawks as he’s a much better ball handler and passer. Atlanta frees up $1.4M this year, but takes on the extra year of Prince.
Marvin’s stats 10 pts, 5 boards, 1.8:1 assist to turnover ratio. 43%,39%,79% in 26 mins per game.
Prince’s stats 12 pts, 4 boards, 2.1:1 assist to turnover ratio, 42%,35%,77% in 33 mins per game.
Would you make the deal just to get rid of Marvin?
O'Brien
May 21st, 2012
7:02 am
High-sider,
Jamal Crawford may not have been, as you say, “the end all-be all” but he [Crawford] was a major contributor/factor towards the Hawks’ [marginal] postseason [and regular season] success..
I agree with that statement. I’m just not convinced he would have the same impact this time around, especially when you consider how the Bulls shut him down eventually.
O'Brien
May 21st, 2012
7:10 am
Just Joe,
In my opinion, the only way a team will take Marvin off our hands is 1)We take back a bad contract from them or 2)We include a first round pick, or a valuable asset like Zaza.
Najeh,
I would love to trade JJ. The problem is, what if you trade JJ this offseason, and then next offseason, Josh walks away?
If I’m the ASG, I would resolve Josh’s situation before moving JJ. Offer Josh a reasonable extension, and if he signs it, then I would look to trade JJ. But if Josh refuses to sign an extension, I am trading him.
If he plays out the season and becomes a FA, ASG will offer him a less than market value extension, which he will turn down. A team will be willing to take Josh in a SNT, but the ASG will say they couldnt find any deals that works for them, so they will let Josh walk (imo).
Just Joe
May 21st, 2012
7:27 am
OB….Hawks can’t offer Josh an extension because of how he got his current deal (Hawks matched Memphis). Hawks have no way of avoiding Josh becoming an unrestricted free agent next summer.
Also, in the Marvin trade, do you not consider Prince’s deal a bad contract?
Rufus1
May 21st, 2012
8:33 am
@High-sider
In the first round of the 2012 playoffs, the Boston Celtics [team] had to deal with the injuries [or absences] of Ray Allen [ankle], Avery Bradley [shoulder], Paul Pierce [knee], and Rajon Rondo [suspension]. The Atlanta Hawks, on the other hand, had to deal with the injuries [and absences] of Zaza Pachulia [foot], Al Horford [pectoral muscle], and Josh Smith [knee]. In the Celtics-Hawks 2012 first round playoff series matchup, the Hawks had home court advantage. What was the reason for the Hawks losing to the Celtics in the first round? If you use injuries as a reason/factor/determinant [excuse], remember, the Celtics had injured players as well. I would say one “reason” for the Hawks losing in [the first round of] the 2012 playoffs was due to [a lack of] scoring. This is why the Hawks should’ve kept Jamal Crawford. He [Crawford] was, after all, the Hawks’ “Boston Strangler.”- High-sider
1)Every injured player for the Celtics played in atleast 5 games in that series… Al played in 2 games and Zaza didn’t play in any games… Don’t FACTS get in the way of your argument.
2)Correction: Isn’t it [eerily] coincidental that Jamal Crawford’s [career]* playoff shooting percentage[s]* and scoring average[s]* are similar to the Hawks’ top two scorers [Joe Johnson and Josh Smith] in this year’s playoffs?- High-sider
You said this in defence of Jamal Crawford…Really? So he will shoot a Low % and get TORCHED on DEFENSE…WOW, sounds like a winner to me!
3) Jamal Crawford “PISSED HIS PANTS” in the Bulls series when he had the chance to be the “DIFFERENCE”…. ENOUGH SAID!
Buddy Grizzard
May 21st, 2012
8:53 am
“Even if they opt to trade JJ, they’d probably do it for expiring contracts only, and go the same route. Re-sign Josh and Teague, and stock the rest of the spots with Dollar Tree players, keeping the payroll as low as possible.”
You say this like keeping Josh instead of JJ is a bad thing.
“A disastrous move by the Mavs by the way.”
Co-sign. First Cuban let Nash walk, then Chandler. They may never get another chance to compete for a championship and they played the Thunder close. No question Chandler would have given them a chance to win that series. Dirk not getting any younger. You go all in to win now and not chase the pipe dream of Deron maybe coming a year later when Dirk is on his last leg.
Dept. Of Unintended Irony
May 21st, 2012
9:19 am
“Get some originality (about yourself), O’Brien; think for yourself. [Part I-A]”
Pretty ironic coming from Rod’s Mini-me.
Clarification
May 21st, 2012
9:59 am
“Jamal Crawford averaged 16.3ppg and 15.4ppg, respectively, in the 2010 and 2011 playoffs for the Hawks and was the Hawks’ second leading scorer in the playoffs for two consecutive years [2010 and 2011].”
Yes, he did. He also gave up more points than he scored.
+ /- for Jamal in the playoffs:
2010 post-season: Jamal Crawford: -36
2011 post-season: Jamal Crawford: -51
His numbers are what they are. If he’s on the team this year, he gives up more points to Bradley, Rondo, Dooling, and Allen, than he scores. Just like always.
2011-12 reg. season with POR: Jamal Crawford: -13
Or go back to when he was with the Warriors.
2008-9 reg. season: Jamal Crawford: -203 (worst on the entire team)
The year before, with the Knicks?
2007-8 reg. season: Jamal Crawford: -347 (next to last, only Eddy Curry was worse)
I could go on, but the point has been made repeatedly. Dude gives up more than he scores.
Forever.
[Hands folded in benediction. Adults don't need celebrations on a blog.]
N
May 21st, 2012
10:03 am
This team is taking a similar path as the Thrashers. Be decent enough to draw attention. Don’t make any major moves or try to improve through the draft or free agency. Keep the same core guys and coaches. Then have a bad year and quickly move out of town.
Astro Joe
May 21st, 2012
10:13 am
I’m surprised that so many seem to believe that with 2 of the 3 captains and more cap space, that the Hawks can become a legit contender. I don’t see that and never have. IMO, 2 captains need to get gone and we need an upgrade at head coach. If Joe, Josh or Al are your best player, then you have a 2nd round ceiling. It is just that simple.
northcyde, interesting point about giving LD a bench of better defenders to restrict his ability to choose offense over defense. My counter is that the mythical LD offense has not quite come to pass. (The guys on the radio show said that during LD’s press conference, it was described as a “magical offense”, and then the started laughing about what has happened two years later). If you take away guys who can make things happen offensively, I’m not sure that LD’s scheme will overcome having improved defensive players in the game.
PMC
May 21st, 2012
10:15 am
Hawks are the new clippers. Worst ownership in the league.
They probably have cold showers with no soap.
SteveW
May 21st, 2012
10:38 am
You have the following teams with multiple 1st round Picks:
Hornets 4th and 10th (All Lottery picks are approximate, since the lottery has not occurred yet.)
Portland 6th and 11th
Houston 14th and 18th
Celtics 21 and 22
Cavs 3 and 24
Golden State 7 and 30
Also the Cavs have picks 33 and 34 in the 2nd round, GSW have 35, and Portland has 40 and 41.
The reason I mention this, is if we have to trade Josh, I would guess that a team with multiple 1st picks, or decent 2nd picks may be the best suitors. They get Josh Smith and still have a 1st pick.
And if this draft is as deep as many pundits say, high 2nd picks may be worth a look also.
SteveW
May 21st, 2012
10:47 am
Weirdly enough, with the Cavs having 4 of the top 34 picks, and with Irving and a couple of other young guys already on board, that Cavs owner’s boast of the Cavs winning a title before LeBron is not looking nearly as far fetched as it did, even at the beginning of this season.
I mean the Heat looked good yesterday. But still, if Haslem doesn’t hit all those J’s, and DWade also (he still couldn’t get around Paul George – and that’s not a good sign for them), they maybe lose that game.
And DWade had fluid drained off his knee before the game. Another not a good sign for the Heat.
And I have never seen so many wide open players as I do when the Spurs are on O. Never – wide open begging for the Basketball are these players. Great O by Pops.
And Kobe lost. But it’s not his fault. He hit more “impossible” shots – wow – just nearly unstoppable. Just not enough supporting cast.
Back to the Heat – even if they come out of the East, I don’t see them beating OKC, the Spurs, or even the Lakers for that matter.
KevinM
May 21st, 2012
10:47 am
“”We made a commitment to our Knicks fans that we would put together a team that would compete for an NBA championship year in and year out,” Madison Square Garden chairman James Dolan said.”
This was part of the conversation when the Knicks had no shot at CP3 and went out and grabbed Tyson Chandler as a parting gift.
You will NEVER hear the ASG have any semblance of acknowledging those who line their pockets.
They nor Rick Sund have a big move in them. We can boast and dream about what captain will be leaving, yet you have an organization that can’t make a timely decision.
Come on, it took 2 months to bring in Dampier. Are you really showing a level of faith in operation here?
Put Just Joe in as the GM for a week, and I can see more progress being made then than Sund will do this summer.
Ken S stated that Sund and LD do a great job with what resources they are given. So it was strictly the ownership group who signed Joe and Marvin? Sund had no input? Why would you have a GM if he didn’t bring the numbers to you?
The issues here are on 3 levels: ASG, Sund and LD. You can’t give LD a pass or Sund a pass because of limited resources. They are spending…they are just spending stupid. You can’t defend stupid.
Want another example? Ask Horford why he made that free throw? Did anyone on the sidelines make an attempt to ensure Al knew what the HAIL he was doing? Just a part of the culture that is Hawks basketball.
LD on his congratulatory video after he was opted in for another year:
“Since I’ve been here, where this team was and where we are today, the organization does believe in what we’re doing here”.
As much as LD might be a good coach, he isn’t a great coach, and that is what this team needs. He is no different than Woody. His results aren’t any better. I love the injury card. That will always get you additional consideration. I never hear from this organization of any dissatisfaction of their accomplishments.
“We paid you 1.5M to get us to the 1st round, and we’re gonna pay you another 1.5M to try to get to the 1st round again! Great job!”
northcyde
May 21st, 2012
10:48 am
@ Just Joe
I think fans would do that deal, just to get rid of Marvin. Most fans think that Marvin is one of the worst SFs in the league, so they’d take them for anybody . . just to get him out of here.
@ Buddy
You have to re-read the paragraph above that quote, to understand where I’m coming from. If they let Josh go for nothing, there’s no guarantee that the Hawks will use the money created by his departure to bring in good mid-level type players.
If they are so strapped for cash, they may use that opportunity to just chill and keep the payroll lower than what they’ve been operating the last 3 years.
So in my mind, the trading of JJ for a large exception may mean the same thing.
Despite the Hawks being significantly under the Salary Cap if JJ wasn’t here, I could see the Hawks opting not to bring in a star caliber player that they may have to pay 10+ million a year. Instead, they’d bring in a bunch of guys in the 2 – 3 million range, while also staying under the Salary Cap.
Financially, that’s sound operation. Basketball wise though, that would have us looking like the Phoenix Suns . . a low-level playoff team with no chance to win anything . . unless Teague blossoms into an All-Star caliber player . . or Horford or Smith turn into a superstar.
But then again, the organization has repeatedly stated that they simply want to put an “entertaining product out on the floor” and a “competitive team”. I’ve never heard Sund nor Gearon say anything about the Hawks aspiring to win a championship, so maybe this will be the plan.
SteveW
May 21st, 2012
10:51 am
Chris Paul showed me some stuff in defeat – that guys a warrior. He picked that team up, and almost carried them to a win.
He’s in a contract year also I think. I wonder if he re-signs with the Clips?
SteveW
May 21st, 2012
10:57 am
I’ve bought into the 48 minute model, AKA where each position plays maximum basketball for 48 minutes. So you need to go 10 deep, like the Suns a couple of years ago, and Indy this season. Spurs, Philly, OKC, even Boston kind of use this model also currently.
So if we did trade Josh for a pick, and free up some cash, I go after 3 guys that I think are FA’s from Houston (Budinger may have a player option) – Dragic, Lee, and Budinger.
You have Ivan (I hope) behind Al at PF – so then maybe you have a pick behind ZaZa at C.
Play 10 deep and be fresh for the playoffs.
SteveW
May 21st, 2012
11:05 am
Worst Case Scenario Money wise – In 4 years you have:
JJ > 25 mill
Josh 16 mill
Al 12 mill
That’s 53 mill in 3 players – then you have Teague probably making 6 mill – 59 mill for 4 players.
ZaZa 6 mill? That’s 65 mill for 5 players. With a punative Luxury Tax staring at you. Way worse than now with the new CBA..
So I think that ASG is dumping somebody’s salary in the near future.
In 2 years if you re-sign Josh, ZaZa, and Teague you have:
JJ > 22m
Marvin 7.5 m
Al 12 m
Josh 16 m (Or thereabouts I’m guessing)
Teague and ZaZa maybe 6 m each
A 1st pick at around 1.5 m
That’s just under 71 mill for 7 players. And that’s if we sell our 1st pick next season for cash.
I just don’t see it happening. Somebody’s going to be gone.
And JJ and Josh are the logical choices.
SteveW
May 21st, 2012
11:11 am
I could see the Cavs giving us the 24th, 33rd and 34th picks for JJ. Their lottery pick won’t vest until JJ’s contract expires, so they would have JJ’s expiring coming off the books when they had to sign him.
The Cavs owner wants to win a Championship bad. It’s personal between he and LeBron.
So if I could have the #3 pick this season, and get JJ, to go along with my haul from last year in the draft, he may do that.
Then we re-sign Josh, if we can. If not, well it’s lottery time!
So much of this off season revolves around Josh’s decision really however.
SteveW
May 21st, 2012
11:14 am
I could see the Nuggets giving up Picks #38 and 50 for Marvin, where Karl would probably turn him into a 15 and 7 guys, and make him look better than he ever did here.
But he would still stumble over his feet.
KevinM
May 21st, 2012
11:16 am
“You have the following teams with multiple 1st round Picks:”
SteveW, you bring up an interesting point. Say you are considering trading Al or Josh…..are you going to get what Minnesota got for Al Jefferson? I bet not.
Therein lies part of the problem here. I see that you have teams with multiple #1s and they might part with one of them. I’m thinking if you don’t get what Utah had to spend to get Jefferson, then you are not doing a good job.
You aren’t getting what NJ gave up for Deron Williams, but you should be getting more than a draft pick. I know he is on the last year of the deal which should make it easier to get something done.
The problem is I think we overvalue our guys. Last year, we had a shot at Enes Kanter if you recall the rumor. Would you trade Josh to get him? I would have and it would have been for monetary implications as well. You lower your payout overall and you get a guy who would be a big contributor come 2014 and fit nicely on our frontline with Al and Zaza rotating.
Going another year with Josh and Al isn’t going to improve us next year.
Finding a post player will have to come through the draft. We are down to the draft and old FAs because we have no flexibility and our guys have less value than this organization believes.
Ask Grunfeld about Bibby and what he got.
SteveW
May 21st, 2012
11:16 am
Draftexpress now has us taking Moultrie at #23.
It also has Wroten at 24, and Taylor at 26, two other guys that have been mentioned for the Hawks.
SteveW
May 21st, 2012
11:30 am
Props to Pierce and Pietrus playing with partially torn MCL’s. I gotta admire their toughness anyway
SteveW
May 21st, 2012
11:39 am
Doc reportedly wants Josh bad – he must know he can mine the talent out of him. If we had 2 guys we were sure could help us at 21 and 22, I’m not totally against trading Josh to the C’s for those 2 1st round picks. Especially if Josh wants to go.
3 1st picks and the #43 pick in the 2nd round, it may make us a more balanced team – and def. help financially.
And you may have enough money left over to sign a Dragic, Kaman, Asik or something, and still come out less than you would with Josh.
I think the C’s may do that deal also.
doc
May 21st, 2012
11:41 am
a lot of players play with partial tears of mcl’s stevew. it hurts and limits but it is doable. acl and lateral stability are critical. usually within two weeks it is pretty much ready except the occasional pain. below the waist that is the best sprain to have.
Melvin
May 21st, 2012
11:57 am
Thru four games with the Pacers. Lebron has attempted 42 free throws while committing 4 fouls… SMH
northcyde
May 21st, 2012
12:06 pm
SteveW . . that’s a good breakdown of those salary numbers. Somebody is going to be out of here. And that’s why I say that if JJ or Josh are moved for nothing, the ASG won’t be looking to take in significant salary to make up for their loss. They’ll operate at a lower number.
Trading off all of those draft picks may have saved the ASG some money in the short term, but now it’s coming back to bite us in the butt.
- high 2nd round pick ( #31 ) traded to the Thunder for cash
- Jordan Crawford ( low cost pick ) traded
- #19 pick ( low cost ) traded
- also traded a few 2nd round picks
Sund and the ASG felt that there was no long term value in those picks, and needed short term cash . . so they trade them off almost immediately. But now, we’re stuck in a mode of constantly bringing in vet minimum guys to fill the bench, while not knowing if a young draft pick could blossom into a better player, and play on the cheap.
I don’t see Zaza being here, if we go forward with a re-signed core of Teague – JJ – Josh – Horford. If Zaza commanded more than 3 million, they wouldn’t be able to ( or want to ) keep him.
The easiest way for the Hawks to trim payroll in 2012:
- amnesty Marvin, and do the bare minimum to fill his spot
****
The easiest way for the Hawks to trim payroll in 2013:
- amnesty Marvin
- let Josh walk for nothing
- let Zaza walk for nothing
Then you can fill the rest of the squad with cheap labor. Since we’re not playing for championships around here, they may opt to do this.
JJ is tradeable, but it may be harder to trade him now, than it will be 2 years from now. That’s why Hawk fans that want JJ gone either need to
- hope the Lakers lose BIG tonight and force them into panic mode, so that we can acquire a Pau Gasol in a JJ trade for him . . a guy that we man can trade off in the summer of 2013 ( or keep as a Josh Smith insurance policy )
- hope that Deron opts out this summer and hope they feen for a name player like JJ.
Astro Joe
May 21st, 2012
12:25 pm
I susepct that Brooklyn would rather have Josh than Joe. Selling the fan base on Josh, Brook and Marshon seems to make a little more marketing sense, not to mention that it keeps them in play for D12 if he trruly wants to team with Josh. Marshon’s promise reduces the need for Joe (IMO).
I’d look at teams like the T’wolves, Warriors or Bucks for Joe. I’d offer him to a team that hasn’t been to the playoffs in a minute and would suggest that by adding Joe to a core of talented young players, that he could turn them into an exciting playoff team like the Grizzlies two years ago or Clippers this past season. A core of Kevin Love, Rubio and Joe is pretty solid. Same for Curry, Joe & David Lee. Even the perfect Thunder had to get an old guy like Perkins to bring some stability to that youthful squad. I know that his tenure ended badly, but Bibby gave the Hawks something they sorely needed when he first arrived. Joe could do that for a young team who keeps finishing 9-11 in their conference.
Again, in my perfect world, Joe & Josh leave the building within a few weeks of each other.
Dwayne
May 21st, 2012
12:32 pm
Stop supporting the incompitant owners, aka…the Altanta Ass clowns!!!!
Rod from College Park
May 21st, 2012
12:40 pm
Nullification,
“Yes, he did. He also gave up more points than he scored.
+ /- for Jamal in the playoffs:
2010 post-season: Jamal Crawford: -36
2011 post-season: Jamal Crawford: -51
His numbers are what they are. If he’s on the team this year, he gives up more points to Bradley, Rondo, Dooling, and Allen, than he scores. Just like always.”
So please help me to remember what guards in the Orlando series, and the Chicago series consistently outscored Jamal Crawford off the bench last year. If my memory serves me correctly the only guard in either of those series that outscored Jamal was Derrick Rose, and the majority of the times he was on the floor he was guarded by Teague and Joe Johnson. Maybe my memory is bad, but I don’t seem to recall Jason Richardson, JJ Reddick, Keith Bogans, CJ Watson, Q Richardson, or Ronnie Brewer consistently hurting us last year, or the year before that. I recall us not beating Chicago because we could not stop Rose and Deng, and rebound. I remember us not beating Orlando the year before that because our coach continued to leave open perimeter shooters, and Dwight destroyed us. Don’t remember many off the bench guards killing us. Maybe my memory is bad though. LOL
SteveW
May 21st, 2012
12:55 pm
Doc – Thanks for that breakdown – I had no idea. Celtic writers kind of panicking because of it.
AJ – Good analysis. JJ can help some young teams – and people do forget Bibby really helped us when he first got here. Really got us over a certain hump.
But then the decline hit, and that was that.
SteveW
May 21st, 2012
12:58 pm
Irving, JJ, Thompson, Varejo, Gee and a high lottery pick like the Cavs have would not be a bad team either.
That’s why I think they may trade #24, 33, and 34 for JJ – Is he worth more than that? Yes, alot more – but at least the contract is gone if you make that trade.
Astro Joe
May 21st, 2012
1:10 pm
The other Joe trade path would be to a team like the Bobcats. The only free agents that would go to that franchise are losers and/or guys who will get significantly overpaid. After the ‘12-13 season, they’ll have less than $18M in signed players. Trade Joe for Maggette (expiring contract) and Ty Thomas (knucklehead). For those who think fondly on Ty Thomas from a few years ago… he isn’t that guy anymore. He’s more like Audray Blatche or some other lost soul in an NBA uniform. Thomas and Josh would only be an entertaining pair on a reality show, otherwise, those two would make your head explode. So you’d have to move one of them quick and fast. But again, one move at a time. This trade would at least give MJ a stabilizing player to keep the team from being unbelievably bad for the next few years. Even if they get a top 3 pick in the upcoming draft, they still need someone like Joe to bridge the gap between awful to less-than-awful.
Of course, none of these trades make the Hawks better… it just eliminates players so that we can enjoy the excitement of a season full of “I wonder if we’ll make the playoffs” or “maybe we can get lucky and get a top 3 draft pick”. Both scenarios are more interesting to some than watching 45+ regular season wins and a playoff defeat in one of the first 2 rounds.
SteveW
May 21st, 2012
1:21 pm
At this point neither side is going to be convinced differently, and there are holes in every analogy seemingly, but:
Lou Williams is averaging 12.2 ppg, 3 assists on 36.7 % shooting, and 20 % from 3 point land. Only shot 40.7 % in the regular season averaging 14.9 ppg
And there were people who felt he should be in the All Star game – and he’s a bargain signed for only 6.4 mill next season.
I’m just sayin’…Well, ya’ll figure out what I’m just sayin’ – I really am tired of beating the dead horse Jamal argument. I really am.
But he’s really similar to Jamal and people really want him…And he’s dangerous in his current series.
Ok, I’m gone for now – see ya’ll!
Just Joe
May 21st, 2012
1:48 pm
Jeremy Hazell coming to Hawks mini camp & playing on summer league team in Vegas.
Ra'mon
May 21st, 2012
1:51 pm
I say trade Al for two draft picks in this year’s draft. Let us not forget, that with Zaza starting for Al, the Hawks STILL locked up a top 4 record in the conference, even though Joe, Zaza, and Kirk also missed a lot of games. Imagine if you had that same roster, with THREE first round draft picks (1 or 2 being a lottery to go along with our first round already), the Hawks would easily be in the conversation for top 3 teams in the east. I would trade Al for Kendal Marshall, Melo (Syracuse), and another wing shooter, and live with those results. I believe Houston would be willing to trade BOTH of their picks for Al. And I also think Portland would give up one of their lottery picks along with second round for Al to pair him with Aldridge. Joe and Josh have both proven they can LEAD this team to a top 4 record. Al hasn’t proven anything yet.
Kendall – Teague – Joe – Josh – Melo, makes a great line up to me. And it also presents one of the most balanced line ups the Hawks have had in quite some time.
Ra'mon
May 21st, 2012
1:58 pm
I also think GS would trade their lottery pick and 35th pick for Al also to pair him with Bogut on the block, (bring Lee off of the bench).
Astro Joe
May 21st, 2012
2:38 pm
Ra’mon, so you would be comfortable with a scenario where neither Josh nor Al are on the team in about 15 months?
Sautee
May 21st, 2012
2:46 pm
“Kendall – Teague – Joe – Josh – Melo, makes a great line up to me. And it also presents one of the most balanced line ups the Hawks have had in quite some time.” – Ramon
It would also be the worst shooting starting 5 in the league:
KM: 41.8%
JT: 41.1%
JJ: 37.3%
JS: 38.6%
FM: 56.6% (on fewer than 6 FGA per game)
Yikes! A good defensive team, perhaps, but if they couldn’t create with their defense…Yikes!
High-sider
May 21st, 2012
2:46 pm
“…2)Correction: Isn’t it [eerily] coincidental that Jamal Crawford’s [career]* playoff shooting percentage[s]* and scoring average[s]* are similar to the Hawks’ top two scorers [Joe Johnson and Josh Smith] in this year’s playoffs?- High-sider
You said this in defence of Jamal Crawford…Really? So he will shoot a Low % and get TORCHED on DEFENSE…WOW, sounds like a winner to me!
3) Jamal Crawford “PISSED HIS PANTS” in the Bulls series when he had the chance to be the “DIFFERENCE”…. ENOUGH SAID!” – Rufus1
I used Jamal Crawford’s career playoff scoring average of 15.8ppg to defend Jamal Crawford and his “similar career shooting percentages and scoring averages” as compared Joe Johnson’s and Josh Smith’s postseason stats demonstrate that in the NBA it is difficult to score especially in the playoffs and that Crawford’s, J. Johnson’s, J. Smith’s playoff stats could be a combination of their role on the team [as shot creators/facilitators/leading scorers], the Atlanta Hawks’ [offensive] system, the opposition’s increased defensive intensity and pressure in the playoffs [on "targeted" leading scorers], and that those three players are relied heavily upon by the the Hawks to take [and make] late-game, clutch shots. It is not uncommon for NBA players to have their scoring averages and shooting percentages decrease [drop] in the playoffs; that’s a product of NBA playoff pressure and intensity.
BTW, Jamal Crawford still averaged 10ppg off the bench vs. the Bulls in the 2011 playoffs [and scored 22 points in Game 1 vs. the Bulls] which is still more than what Marvin Williams [7.8ppg] and Kirk Hinrich [5.7ppg] averaged in the 2012 postseason. Through the first four games of this 2012 postseason vs. the Celtics, Hinrich scored a [combined] total of 22 points – that’s 22 [total] points in four [postseason] games played.
High-sider
May 21st, 2012
3:11 pm
@Clarification aka Nullification
“…Yes, he did. He also gave up more points than he scored.
+ /- for Jamal in the playoffs:
2010 post-season: Jamal Crawford: -36
2011 post-season: Jamal Crawford: -51
His numbers are what they are. If he’s on the team this year, he gives up more points to Bradley, Rondo, Dooling, and Allen, than he scores. Just like always.
2011-12 reg. season with POR: Jamal Crawford: -13
Or go back to when he was with the Warriors.
2008-9 reg. season: Jamal Crawford: -203 (worst on the entire team)
The year before, with the Knicks?
2007-8 reg. season: Jamal Crawford: -347 (next to last, only Eddy Curry was worse)…” – Clarification
I hope you realize that +/- statistics are not statistics “in a vacuum.” What I’m trying to say is that +/- statistics don’t necessarily show a player’s individual performance but shows teams’ performance[s] while that particular player was on the floor/court with nine other players [four teammates and five opposing players]. I want you to understand that Jamal Crawford as a reserve or “sixth man” plays a significant amount of his minutes with inferior teammates [and maybe against inferior opposition]. Stats “in a vacuum” or individual statistics such as a player’s FG%, 3PFG%, FT%, PPG avg, RPG avg, APG avg, blocks per game avg, steal per avg and minutes per game avg are stats “in a vacuum” and can be used to [better] evaluate a player’s performance, value and worth [to a current or future team]. GM’s and/or player personnel directors don’t put a lot of “stock” in +/- statistics when assembling an NBA roster.
Grandad
May 21st, 2012
3:16 pm
SteveW
Those picks you mentioned;
24, 33, -&- 34:
You could snap up;
Kevin Murphy & Scott Machado,
within those picks.
Murphy may be a better pure shooter than John Jenkins
[plus taller & longer]
Machado is a pass 1st, floor general, true point guard.
* You stated earlier:
this draft is suppose to be deep ?
I truly believe it -will- be a solid -two- round draft.
The 2nd round might be better
than the bottom tier of the 1st from last year.